Vocational Voices

In this episode, we discuss the vital role of partnerships in the VET sector. These partnerships help connect training with the skills that industries need. Simultaneously, they build the capacity and resilience of both providers and employers.  Our focus centres on four key elements that are fundamental to successful partnerships. We take a close look at these factors in a case study featuring The Management Edge and Murrumbidgee Local Health District. In this case study, we gain insights from the employer, the trainer, and the learner regarding the power of collaboration in delivering leadership training to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health workers. This discussion draws from the research report Building effective RTO-employer partnerships and the accompanying Good Practice Guide, both of which were published on 20 September 2023.

The concept of “meaningful work” is something that’s been regularly discussed by vocational education and training (VET) researchers for many years. But what does it mean and what are the pathways for achieving that end? Join NCVER's Dr Joy de Leo and Dr Michael Healy from myfuture as they explore the current labour market, the top occupations in demand in Australia, the implications of sound career advice for people seeking jobs, and how VET pathways can help lead to meaningful careers.

In the past few years, the VET sector has faced rapid socioeconomic, demographic and technological change. When unforeseen events such as COVID-19 emerged, the sector quickly adapted by upskilling workplaces, training organisations and VET trainers in digital and remote work methods. Tune in to our podcast and listen to VET experts share their insights and research. They will also delve into conversations about how the VET sector can continue to respond to skills demands during times of disruption and rapid change.

Is the time right for change and "to be bold and think big, and challenge the way we think about tertiary education" in Australia? In this episode, we explore potential reforms to universities, their missions, and structures, while considering the role of VET. One perspective suggests establishing two types of universities: one focused on practical, hands-on learning for professional skills, and the other dedicated to research and comprehensive education. Tom Karmel argues that higher education is more than just theoretical knowledge—it's inherently vocational, preparing students for their chosen professions. He sees a lot of what the VET sector is teaching is generic skills which can be transferred to a wider range of jobs. Tom proposes the idea of a "professional university" that offers qualifications from certificates to degrees, focusing on practical education and strong connections to the job market. Jenny Dodd agrees with many of Tom’s ideas for creating a more integrated tertiary education system but raises concerns about the term "professional university." Simon Walker supports the need for an integrated model that allows students to build on their learning across various qualifications. He sees potential benefits in such a system, particularly in promoting equity and supporting disadvantaged students.

Making sure the VET sector serves regional, rural and remote Australia remains an ongoing policy priority. In this episode, we talk about the challenges that RTOs face when delivering training in regional Australia. What are the barriers and how are they being addressed? We also consider whether local training providers should be given more flexibility to tailor their programs to meet the specific needs of the communities they serve. Steve Davis interviews Joanne Payne, Managing Director, Central Regional TAFE in WA, Tabatha Griffin, Senior Research Officer, NCVER and Simon Walker, Managing Director, NCVER about these challenges and the need for diverse and flexible training approaches to better meet the needs of people in regional areas. The discussion draws from VET delivery in regional, rural and remote Australia: barriers and facilitators, published by NCVER on 24 April 2023.

In 2022, we invited expert vocational voices from the VET sector to share their views, stories, experiences and insights on a range of hot topics. ‘Best of 2022’ is a roundup of the most interesting snippets and research findings from across the four podcast episodes we released during the year. Full of short and sharp insights from each of our guest speakers, we cover off some of the best bits of Season 7.

Aside from the health and economic impacts, the first two years of the COVID-19 pandemic significantly affected Australia’s VET sector. The full scale of these effects, however, has just started to emerge. In what ways did the first waves of the pandemic affect the VET workforce – including trainers, resource developers and administrative staff? What changes and innovations happened? More importantly, what were the impacts on students and their practical learning, particularly those in industries with a high skills shortage? Steve Davis talks to Jenny Dodd, Chief Executive Officer, TAFE Directors Australia, Brian Rungie, Chief Exective Officer, PEER and Simon Walker, Managing Director, NCVER about the varying impacts of the pandemic, as well as the COVID-19 related opportunities and challenges being faced by Australia’s VET sector. The discussion partially draws from NCVER research in progress which will be published in early-mid 2023.

Join host Steve Davis for some handpicked highlights from three panel discussions at the 31st National VET Research Conference ‘No Frills’ held in July 2022.The conference theme was VET's role in transforming the future. Topics covered in the lively discussion include why business leaders are turning to education and training for the solutions; the future skill needs of service-based industries; upskilling and reskilling and the impact of COVID-19 on employers and their training choices; strengthening skills pathways to work for disadvantaged youth; quality VET delivery; and VET course pathways.Speakers are Ms Megan Lilly, Australian Industry Group; Ms Silvia Munoz, SkillsIQ; Mr Ian White, NCVER; Ms Kira Clarke, Brotherhood of St Laurence; Mr Hugh Guthrie, Lusid Pty Ltd and Mr Damian Oliver, National Skills Commission.

Both vocational education and training (VET) and higher education (HE) offer the skills, knowledge and qualifications needed to equip students to progress their career and lifelong learning.  But given the difficulty and huge costs associated in integrating VET and HE, how do we harness the best of both sectors and maximise their benefits to students, employers and industry? Megan Lilly, Executive Director of Ai Group’s Centre for Education & Training and Simon Walker, Managing Director, NCVER talk to Steve Davis about why greater connectedness and fluidity between the sectors might be better than integration.   The discussion draws from The best of both worlds? Integrating VET and higher education, published by NCVER on 25 November 2021.

Participation in higher education by school leavers has increased significantly in the last decade. VET participation has lagged by comparison. Are students headed for university accorded higher status at school than those who prefer to pursue a trade apprenticeship or traineeship? While the general outcomes for students who participate in VET in Schools is good, choosing the right VET course or VET pathway is critical, as some pathways are undoubtedly better than others in terms of employment outcomes. Professor Peter Shergold AC, who chaired a major review for Commonwealth, State and Territory Ministers of Education on senior secondary school pathways (Looking to the Future), and Simon Walker, Managing Director, NCVER talk to Steve Davis about whether people are overestimating the impact of ATAR on a student’s future career prospects, and the proliferation of pathways that can be followed to find a future career. The discussion draws from VET for secondary school students: insights and outcomes, published by NCVER on 14 October 2021.

Steve Davis, Simon Walker, Linda Simon, Martin Powell, Kira Clarke, Joanne Waugh, Bryan Palmer, Professor John Buchanan, Megan Lilly, Dr Kaye Bowman, Michael Hartman, Dr Martha Kinsman, Professor Stephen Billett 9 December 2021 (45 mins) In 2021, we invited expert vocational voices from the VET sector to share their views, stories, experiences and insights on a range of hot topics. ‘Best of 2021’ is a roundup of interesting snippets and research findings from across the four podcast episodes we released during the year. Full of short and sharp insights from each of our guest speakers, we cover off some of the best bits of Season 6.

Steve Davis interviews a collection of presenters from three panel discussions at the 30th National VET Research Conference 'No Frills', held on 7-9 July 2021. Topics covered in the lively discussion include future-focused education and training delivered with, and in, industry; the 'futures' of work; understanding employers' training choices; and what is a VET system fit for the future? Speakers are Professor John Buchanan, The University of Sydney; Ms Megan Lilly, Australian Industry Group; Dr Kaye Bowman, Callan Consulting Group; Mr Michael Hartman, Skills Impact; Dr Martha Kinsman, Australian National University; and Professor Stephen Billett, Griffith University.

Short-course training, often referred to as 'micro-credentials', is seen as an increasingly important form of training, particularly as governments respond to the social and economic effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. Steve Davis talks to Bryan Palmer, Private Consultant and author of An analysis of micro-credentials in VET, and Simon Walker, Managing Director, NCVER about the different interpretations and definitions of a micro-credential, why so many students pursue enrolments in subjects not part of a nationally recognised program, and why a majority of activity in this space is privately funded. The discussion largely draws from An analysis of micro-credentials in VET, published by NCVER on 3 June 2021.

Youth unemployment post-COVID is an all-hands-on-deck challenge. For young people who have lost work or have been looking for work, post-COVID recovery is going to be a fraught time if Australia doesn't take a well-structured pathway to recovery.  Join Steve Davis as he talks to Kira Clarke, Senior Research Fellow at the Brotherhood of St Laurence, Jo Waugh, Senior Research Officer, NCVER and Simon Walker, Managing Director, NCVER about the role the VET sector can and should play in the process. They discuss why vocational pathways in schools, work-based training, and career guidance are critical to youth employability, especially for disadvantaged people.  The discussion refers to research What VET can offer to COVID-19 youth unemployment recovery, published by NCVER on 13 May 2021.

Should we be concerned about the quality of VET teaching? Recent research suggests there are key issues affecting the quality of VET teaching that need to be addressed. These include entry level requirements, limited career pathways, workforce casualisation, and lack of support for professional development. Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director, Simon Walker, Educationalist and Researcher, Linda Simon and VET Development Centre CEO, Martin Powell about what helps build capability and quality in VET teaching.

In 2020, we invited expert vocational voices from the VET sector to share their views, stories, experiences and insights on a range of hot topics. ‘Best of 2020’ is a roundup of interesting snippets and research findings from across the eight podcast episodes we released during the year. Full of short and sharp insights from each of our guest speakers, we cover off some of the best bits of Seasons 4 and 5. The transcripts and recordings of all eight podcast episodes we've drawn from can be found on the NCVER Portal.

Are there too many underutilised qualifications in the Australian VET system? Are some qualifications past their expiration date?  One method of reducing qualifications involves grouping them into vocational clusters so individuals can train for several jobs at once. This approach also creates greater transferability of skills in the labour market.  Do we have the appetite for such transformative change? Is there a role for good quality training that may sit outside the formal national training system? Steve Davis talks to Professor John Buchanan, Business School, University of Sydney, David Morgan, CEO, Artibus Innovation and Simon Walker, Managing Director, NCVER about the notion of ‘clustering’ qualifications into vocational streams for a range of occupations and how it could be achieved.

Young people are finding it harder and harder to get a foothold into those highly-skilled, better paying jobs that will set them up for the future. How can we increase the number of jobs available, and provide better pathways into jobs and industries that have been increasingly out of reach? Join Steve Davis as he talks to Simon Walker, NCVER Managing Director; Dr Peter Hurley, Education Policy Fellow, Mitchell Institute for Education and Health Policy at Victoria University; and Ian Curry, National Coordinator - Skills, Training & Apprenticeships at the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union (AMWU) about: The concepts of cadetships, higher apprenticeships, and work-ready skills What are the merits of a national cadet program for those jobs more often associated with diploma or bachelor degree qualifications? Will it lead to better employment outcomes for young people? Do employers expect too much of new recruits in terms of skill sets? Do we focus too much on training for the skills employers want, rather than creating more broadly-skilled people?

Do we value tertiary and vocational education equally? Have apprenticeships lost their sense of purpose? With recent budget announcements and the need to build a skilled workforce to meet the challenges of a rapidly changing economy, apprenticeships are in the spotlight. Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director, Simon Walker and Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union (AMWU) National Coordinator – Skills, Training & Apprenticeships, Ian Curry, about the future of traditional trades and how the perception of apprenticeships has changed over the years.  Discussion focuses on regulation, flexibility, completion rates as well as the complexity around the status of VET.

Steve Davis interviews a collection of presenters from two panel discussions at the 29th National VET Research Conference 'No Frills', held on 7-10 July 2020. Topics covered in the lively discussion include new directions in skills planning, digital technology and the role it plays in aged and community care, insights from the Longitudinal Surveys of Australian Youth (LSAY), and the role of parental influence in taking on apprenticeships. Speakers are Professor John Buchanan, The University of Sydney; Ms Anne Livingstone and Dr George Margelis, Australian Aged Care Industry Information Technology Council; Mr David Redway, Australian Government Department of Education, Skills and Employment; and Professor Erica Smith, Federation University.

Digital skills are now essential for almost all occupations and workers in Australia. So how do we best incorporate them into VET courses? And how do we make sure our VET educators have the digital skills they need? Join Steve Davis as he talks to Suzi Kuti, Head of Organisation Development and Learning at Metro Trains Sydney, and NCVER researchers Michelle Circelli and Bridget Wibrow about what teaching digital skills means for VET educators. They also discuss the integration of digital skills into VET delivery and why digital skills should become a key component of foundation skills. This discussion refers to two good practice guides, Incorporating digital skills into VET delivery and Teaching digital skills: implications for VET educators published by NCVER on 10 June 2020.

Thirty years ago, the Australian VET system was on tenterhooks as two major reports were released into the management and costs of training for enterprises against a backdrop of award restructuring that was being championed at the time by the government. How do the projections and goals in these reports compare to the reality facing TAFE today? How has TAFE embraced fee-for-service, and are there myths and assumptions surrounding the size of the fee-for-service market and its efficacy or otherwise? Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director Simon Walker, Robin Shreeve, Adjunct Professor at Federation University and President AVETRA, and Craig Robertson, CEO TAFE Directors Australia about the next evolutionary stage in fee-for-service in the VET sector.

Are skill sets likely to take on extra significance as Australia responds to the shifting workforce demands and challenges, particularly in the health sector during the COVID-19 pandemic? ? Looking ahead, can skill sets or micro-credentials play a role in getting vital competencies into the workplace so the economy can rebuild? To find out, Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director Simon Walker and Director Employment, Education & Training at the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Jenny Lambert. They start by defining what skill sets and micro-credentials actually are and the role they currently play in the VET system.

Online learning can be just as effective as face-to-face instruction if it’s done well. But what makes for good quality and good practice? While subject withdrawal rates are higher and course completion rates lower for VET courses delivered entirely online, new research has shown that the outcomes for those students who do complete online courses are similar to those of other delivery modes. Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director Simon Walker and NCVER Senior Researcher Dr Tabatha Griffin about how online VET courses are being delivered, the outcomes for those who do complete them, and why students may withdraw or not complete online courses.

Qualifications are an essential part of the VET system, and therefore a key consideration in the broader approach to VET sector reform. Join special guest Peter Noonan, Professor of Tertiary Education at Victoria University and Expert Panel Chair of the recent AQF Review, as he talks with Steve Davis and Simon Walker, Managing Director NCVER about the recently released Review of the Australian Qualifications Framework Final Report 2019. Discussion focuses on micro-credentials, identifying general capabilities, the Pathways Policy, and the proposed new qualification types or classification of VET qualifications.

New research has revealed how young people’s post-school pathways are diverse, individualised and complex. Steve Davis, Simon Walker Managing Director NCVER, and William Stubley CEO & Co-founder Year13, discuss if the reliance on ATAR, the Australian Tertiary Admission Rank, as our lens for evaluating educational achievements is too narrowly focused, and if so, what are some of the options for broadening our approach to understanding post-school pathways?

Competency based training (CBT) is the model of curriculum at the heart of the VET system and for some it’s a shorthand way of referring to the system of VET training packages, but critics are arguing that the VET sector’s reliance upon training packages is failing to meet the real-world needs of students and industry due to how they define and therefore teach competency. Steve Davis discusses this topic with NCVER Managing Director Simon Walker and TAFE Directors Australia CEO Craig Robertson.

Why do around half of Australian employers look outside the nationally accredited VET system to provide their employees with training? To find out, Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director Simon Walker and NCVER researcher Ian White, who discuss the reasons why employers choose unaccredited over accredited training, and whether it meets their skills needs.

Steve Davis interviews a collection of presenters from the 28th National VET Research Conference ‘No Frills’, held on 10-12 July 2019 in Adelaide (80 mins) While every student's journey is different, more and more research and discussion underlines the importance of workers becoming lifelong learners so they can grow and evolve with their jobs. And more than ever before, Australia relies on the VET sector to play a critical role in making this happen. Hear from a variety of VET experts about their ideas and research as they discuss how Australia can tackle the many challenges of the changing world of work. Topic Presenter Start time Employability skills in entry level roles in STEM-rich and care/support industries  Kate Perkins, ACER 01.41  Life skills for a digital future Mori Hajizadeh & Kevin O’Leary, Australian Industry Standards 13:00 Student outcomes in aged care and cookery Melinda Brown, Skills IQ 27:57 When is a worker truly competent? Training and assessment Michael Hartman, Skills Impact 38:21  RPL: difficulties & mitigating strategies Deb Carr, Think About Learning & Helen Smith 52:09 How can educators better support students with psychological-based individual differences? Cameron Williams, Black Dog Institute 01:03:38 Student choice in a contestable market  Don Zoellner, Charles Darwin University  01:13:43 To view the full conference program and abstracts, please visit Past events on the NCVER Portal.

It is hard to dispute that the apprenticeships model, which combines employment with formal training in a trade, is an effective way of developing skills while still earning a wage. So why do apprenticeship numbers appear to be so dire? To find out, Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director, Simon Walker and National Australian Apprenticeships Association Chief Executive Officer, Ben Bardon, who reveal that the situation is more nuanced than recent media headlines might suggest. They start by discussing the difference between apprenticeships and traineeships, which can skew the perceived decline.

How will Industry 4.0, or the Fourth Industrial Revolution as it’s also known, affect the jobs we do and how we train for them? To find out, Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director, Simon Walker and AiGroup Head of Workforce Development, Megan Lilly. The challenge, they say, is to develop an agile skill base that can continually learn and grow, which means traditional education systems will also need to evolve.

In this interview, Steve Davis talks with author Francesca Beddie about her paper, What next for tertiary education? Some preliminary sketches, which presents the culmination of the ideas discussed between prominent tertiary education thinkers who came together to reflect on the Committee on the Future of Tertiary Education report (the Martin report). These ideas are intended to generate discussion on the possibilities for the future of tertiary education in Australia. She emphasises the importance of going beyond the funding debate, to talking more broadly about how we should be educating our citizens in the 21st century. Original broadcast date: 25 August 2014

In this interview, Steve Davis talks with researcher, Berwyn Clayton, about the report Industry currency and professional obsolescence: what can industry tell us?. The purpose of the study is to take an industry focused approach to investigating the issues of professional obsolescence and industry currency and how they apply to VET practitioners. Issues covered included, the importance of industry currency for practitioners training and assessing in the VET sector; strategies used by employers to keep trades people current with new technology and changing ways of working in various industry sectors; and strategies used by leading edge organisations to keep people up to speed with new knowledge and skills. Original broadcast date: 21 June 2013

In this interview, Steve Davis talks with former NCVER Managing Director, Tom Karmel, about his report which uses data from the 2006 cohort of the Longitudinal Surveys of Australian Youth (LSAY) to investigate how schools influence tertiary entrance rank and university enrolment over and above young people's individual background characteristics. A point of discussion was the authors' finding that schools do matter and although young people's individual characteristics are the main contributors to university entrance, the school characteristics are responsible for almost 20% of the variation in tertiary entrance rankings. Original broadcast date: 24 April 2013

In this phone interview, Hielke Buddelmeyer, talks about his report which explores the impact of education and training on social exclusion using a multidimensional measure that focuses on seven domains. Education, he says, is a 'sleeper factor' in that it operates on many different levels and has an impact on the other six domains, such as health. Hielke also points out that the current focus on human capital, including social inclusion, follows previous market reforms that have been implemented to position Australia in changing economic times. Original broadcast date: 2 November 2012

In this 13 minute interview, Steve Davis talks with Leesa Wheelahan about the report Shaken not stirred? The development of one tertiary education sector in Australia. This report examines universities that offer a small amount of VET and private providers that offer both VET and higher education, building on previous research examining TAFE intitutes that offer higher education. This research suggests that mixed-sector and dual-sector providers are likely to become more important but they face specific challenges in the quality of their provision. While the sharp distinctions between VET and higher education are giving way to a more differentiated single tertiary education sector this is resulting in a more stratified and hierarchical structure as university providers become the 'comparator'. Original broadcast date: 17 January 2012

In this 9 minute interview, Steve Davis talks with former NCVER Managing Director, Tom Karmel, about the report Attrition in the trades. This report investigates attrition in the trades by comparing the rate at which tradespeople leave their occupation with that of professionals. It also determines whether attrition is influenced by economic conditions, and if a trade can provide a good start to a career in the professions. The report concludes that attrition in the trades is no higher than in the professions; the rate of leaving particular occupations may vary, but overall the results between the two are very similar. The economic climate also makes little difference to the attrition rate. Original broadcast date: 18 November 2011

In this interview, Steve Davis talks with researcher Cain Polidano about the report Outcomes from combining work and tertiary study. This study investigates the motivations for and the education and employment outcomes from working while studying for both VET and higher education students. While, in general, tertiary students who work while studying are less likely to complete than those who do not, being employed in the final year of study significantly improves the chances of finding full time employment in the first year following study. Original broadcast date: 2 June 2011

In this interview, Steve Davis talks with researcher Tanya Bretherton about her report Developing the child care workforce: understanding 'fight' or 'flight' amongst workers. The early childhood education and care sector in Australia has long been characterised by low-skill/low-pay jobs. The current policy environment, however, may offer scope for the sector to move towards a path of skill growth. This report, based on case studies of four early childhood education and care providers, investigates how innovative employers are overcoming challenges in the sector to improve workforce development. Original broadcast date: 29 July 2010

In this interview, Steve Davis talks with researcher Cain Polidano about his report on the role of vocational education and training in the labour market outcomes of people with disabilities. Low levels of education generally among people with a disability is one of the factors contributing to their lower rate of labour market participation. What role vocational education and training (VET) plays in ameliorating this is the focus of this report. Using data from the Household, Income and Labour Dynamics of Australia surveys, the report finds that for people who are not working, completing a VET qualification does increase the chance of employment and more so for people with a disability. Original broadcast date: 23 March 2010

In this interview, Steve Davis talks with former NCVER Managing Director, Tom Karmel, about his report Apprenticeships and traineeships in the downturn. The essence of the apprenticeship is the contract of training - a legal contract between an individual, an employer and a training provider. The defining characteristic is the combination of employment and training. The purpose of this paper is to describe what we know about apprenticeships and traineeships, with a view to assessing the likely impact of the current economic downturn on them. Original broadcast date: 17 November 2009

In this interview, Steve Davis talks with researcher Michael Dockery about his report, Cultural dimensions of Indigenous participation in education and training. This study provides an important innovation to the existing literature by explicitly attempting to measure 'cultural attachment' and its relationship with post-compulsory education and training. Original broadcast date: 4 November 2009

In this interview Steve Davis talks with former NCVER Managing Director, Tom Karmel, about his report Is VET vocational?, which explores the issue of how vocational education and training (VET) is actually used in the labour market and in particular the match between what graduates study and the jobs they get. Original broadcast date: 29 July 2008