Paleo Protestant Pudcast

The pudcast returns with consideration of confessional Protestant piety in relation to the purity culture that ran in evangelical circles during the 1990s and 2000s. The co-hosts, Anglican Miles Smith, Lutheran Korey Maas, and Presbyterian D. G. Hart discuss in particular two recent defenses of an evangelical subculture that developed in reaction to a society that pastors and parents thought was hostile to serious Christian devotion. Trevin Wax's "We Were Jesus Freaks" and Samuel D. James' "The New Purity Culture" not only defend a form of separation from the cultural mainstream (without becoming Amish), but document a form of piety that ran strong in certain sectors of evangelicalism and may or may not dovetail with Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Anglican forms of devotion.

Don't let that click bait fool you. Confessional Protestants have been in the news -- not for being named in the Epstein files. A Lutheran Church Missouri Synod district president has been charged with possessing child pornography, the moderator of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland resigned for failing to protect church members from abuse, and Presbyterians in the United States have excommunicated a minister for holding to and promoting kinism. And you thought Anglicans had it rough.

The co-hosts, Anglican Miles Smith, Lutheran Korey Maas, and Presbyterian D. G. Hart put their heads together virtually to discuss and comment on these regretable developments.

Listeners beware. Jeffrey Epstein is never mentioned.

We were down a man this time. Our Anglican co-host, Miles Smith, was on the road which left Korey Maas (Lutheran) and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) trying to maintain pudcasting standards. We had help from our colleague in the English Department, Jason Peters, who grew up Christian Reformed and switched to Eastern Orthodoxy. We talked about the various strands of Orthodoxy in America, what the appeal may be to young men, and why confessional Protestants realign with the Orthodox Church.

For perspective on the current appeal of Orthodoxy, see this piece from the New York Times. The movement of some Lutherans into Orthodoxy about twenty-five years ago was related to the so-called Finnish interpretation of Luther.

As always, we depend heavily on the production abilities of the great Southern Presbyterian, @presbycast.

This discussion among the co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), has almost nothing to do with Thanksgiving but it does resume the last one about the Anglican Church in North America. Miles Smith provides an update on the ongoing efforts to resolve conflict over allegations of sexual misconduct by Archbishop Steve Wood. He also comments on the Matthew Wilcoxen proposal for reforming ACNA. Disputes in the Presbyterian Church in America over women as deaconesses and or shepherdesses opened a window on the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod led by Korey Maas.

All of this may sound like too much detail. But if you believe God is in the details, you should be fine.

The bumper music for this episode, chosen by our Presbyterian producer, comes from the 1964 comic rendition of an Anglican homily by Alan Bennett ("My Brother Esau, Beyond the Fringe"). The subject discussed by pudcast co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) may be the same -- Anglicanism -- but the approach is not comedic. Anglicans around the world have been in the news, from the appointment of a new (and female) archbishop of Canterbury, to the decision by a prominent Baptist historical theologian to join ACNA.

All the recent news deserves way more than roughly 55 minutes of banter. But with the help of our resident Anglican, Miles Smith, we learned about the choppy water in which the bishops, clergy, and laity find themselves.

A recent article announced a shift, some call it vibe, others a mood, that is making Christianity more acceptable or less appealing than it used to be in Aaron Renn's "negative world." This is related to a question of what influence churches have on a society and its culture. Aaron Renn interviewed several leaders among the effort to take back the mainline Protestant denominations (from a fall that everyone acknowledges but does not necessarily measure). One of the reasons for looking to these churches instead of the Presbyterian Church in America, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, or the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, is that the mainline denominations have more status than the sideline alternatives, and therefore are more likely to promote Christianity beyond the church to the culture more generally.

The pudcast co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) discuss these matters, even with some attention to the church's influence on the Roman empire and much later on American society during the early national period. In the latter case, Ross Douthat's comments in an interview (read in the recording) about low-church Protestantism's influence on America are yet another aspect of Christianity's cultural influence.

It is back-to-school time and the co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) are getting ready for classes. This makes it a good time to reflect on the kind of education that nurtures confessional Protestant piety and practice -- for both ministers and church members.

The recording starts with each member of the "broadcasting team" talking about upcoming classes at Hillsdale College and how we situate ourselves within the framework of classical education, the "Great Books," and liberal education.

From there the conversation explores the relationship between confessional Protestantism and the kind of learning that at least pastors need, which points back to ties between the Reformation and the Renaissance, which then leads to the Renaissance's recovery of ancient Greek and Latin authors and the way Humanism cultivated Protestant understandings of education. At the very end comes some commentary on whether the Bible qualifies as a "Great Book" or is merely a "Good Book."

The co-hosts "did the reading" for this discussion which included a critique of "The Great Books," a review of a book about the Bible and classical education, and college students on the appeal of liberal education.

No sponors this episode. The Pudcast transcends money.

To put the question even more pointedly, with lots of stereotyping to go round, when do Lutherans of German descent who settled mainly in the northern mid-western states pay attention to Baptists in the South? This was the subject of the recent recording when co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) discussed Scott Yenor's article on what Southern Baptist conservatives might learn from Missouri Synod Lutherans about "the left's" attack on denominational institutions. Part of the discussion involved the Southern Baptist Convention's place in conservative politics and the New Calvinist movement. Another part involved the dark side of church politics -- how much officers and members need to strategize and organize to defeat opponents within a communion where everyone is supposed to agree.

Articles the co-hosts mentioned included: Korey Maas on the controversy in the LCMS over Concordia Seminary, St. Louis; and the place of civil rights politics in the LCMS controversy. For any Presbyterians who might see parallels in the Lutheran and Baptist controversies with the Presbyterian conflict of the 1920s, especially over control of seminaries, this discussion at The Reformed Forum may be of use.

This episode's sponor is the National Public Radio show, "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me."

The topic this time is evangelical sacramentalism courtesy of a good short article by Gillis Harp, a retired professor of history at Grove City College. With Dr. Harp, the co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) talk about the recent elevation of the sacraments among Protestants, whether this is a function of Protestants trying to retrieve the church fathers or re-enchant worship services, and the relationship between preaching and the Lord's Supper. Spoiler alert: readers may be surprised to hear an Anglican (Dr. Harp) defend a high view of preaching.

Listeners may want to consult Luther's Small Catechism, the Thirty-Nine Articles, and the Shorter Catechism on the Lord's Supper to see the language used to describe the benefits of the sacrament.

The death of Pope Francis and the election of a new pope -- Leo XIV -- were the circumstances for co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) to talk about relationships between Protestants and the papacy. The conversation ranged widely, from assessments of Francis, speculation about Leo, and general observations about Christianity's need for a sound pope. Keeping up with all of the articles about either Francis' legacy or Leo's prospects is impossible. But these were some of the articles the co-hosts consulted before being recorded.

The Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican heirs of the Protestant Reformation continue to make news by not attracting attention from observers of American Protestantism. The co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), talk about two recent articles about traditional Protestantism that either imply or claim that such Christianity is down on the mat for the count (think boxing). One is Brad East's "Goldilocks Protestantism" and the other is Casey Spinks "Does Traditional Protestantism Have a Future?" The conversation may not be as hopeful as some listeners want. But along with the last episode on non-denominational Protestantism, this one reveals further challenges that confessional Protestant communions face.

Follow some of us -- Miles Smith @ivmiles and D. G. Hart (for now) @reallyoldlife.

This time co-hosts Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) talk about whether non-denominational Christianity is the future of American Protestantism and what stake confessional Protestants have in denominational structures. The basis for discussion is sociologist Ryan Burge's analysis of church statistics whose numbers indicate the remarkable increase of non-denominational Protestantism. Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Congregationalists may sound like the ecclesiastical equivalent of Ford, Lincoln, Chevrolet, and Buick, but institutions matter to Christian faith and practice as much as they do to the manufacturing and sale of automobiles.

Follow the Anglican co-host @ivmiles and the Presbyterian co-host @oldlife.

The Pudcast returns with co-hosts Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) in the after glow of a very long holiday season -- that seems to get longer the older the observer becomes. The recording starts with question of whether the five to six weeks between Thanksgiving and New Years -- when everyone seems to return to pandemic levels of output in the workplace -- is too long. Included is attention to the particular aspects of holiday observance among Lutherans and Anglicans (with Lutherans getting lots of credit for using the phrase, "The Divine Service" most often). Material that stimulated the discussion was Ross Douthat's speculation that secular liberalism has run out of steam and Eli Lake's report on the Jewish-Americans who wrote so many of the secular Christmas songs. Listeners who have not seen Whit Stillman's movie, "Metropolitan" should do so asap even if it is no longer Christmas or Advent or Debutante Ball season.

Owing to the recent death of former POTUS, Jimmy Carter and Donald Trump's election victory, the co-hosts also speculated about the effects of past and future presidents on the religious vibe in the United States and elsewhere.

Bonus content: here is an introduction to Washington Irving's Old Christmas, a story that shaped American customs surrounding the holiday.

When most confessional Protestants are preparing for end-of-calendar-year holidays, they are likely thinking about Lutheran seminary education. For that reason, this discussion with co-hosts Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) will be a treat. The basis for discussion is an article that Korey Maas wrote for the Acton Institute publication, Religion and Liberty, on the late 1960s controversy at Concordia Seminary, St. Louis which led to the exodus of confessionally liberal Lutherans not only from the seminary but also from the LCMS altogether. Among the points of controversy was the doctrine of inerrancy, which gave the conflict a certain resemblance to the Presbyterian controversy of the 1920s. Spoiler alert: the co-hosts never mention beer and only bring up Presbyterianism at the end of the episode. So you have to listen to the end (at least it's not behind a paywall).

The article by Korey Maas who is still not on Twitter (formerly called Twitter) is here. The LCMS statement on the authority and infallibility of the Bible is here.

Miles Smith is still @ivmiles and D. G. Hart is still @oldlife.

As is always the case, the pudcast would not exist without the incomparable assistance of @presbycast.

The vibe for this recording was solemn even if the co-hosts Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) were also excited for the upcoming marriage of our only confessional Protestant bachelor (sorry ladies). The reason for the somber mood was Miles Smith's piece at MereOrthodoxy on evangelicals and politics. There he suggests that American Protestants have lost a sense of nations sitting under God's judgment. In which case, the presidential campaign and the results could be less a story of redemption than they reveal God's rebuke of an errant society.

From that starting point, conversation ranged to the degree to which confessional Protestants suffer from viewing the United States as a redeemer nation, how millennialism affects nationalism, differing estimates (Augustinian or Eusebian) of Christian government, and even whether Christians can learn a tragic sense of politics from H. L. Mencken.

No sponsors, but it should have been Joy dishwashing detergent.

We did try, the we being co-hosts Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian). The plan was to have a Zoom chat with listeners. We did but only one listener showed up. We will have to take another run at this.

Even so, the lack of other chatters and despite some technological glitches, the co-hosts still managed to talk about what it means to belong to the church, the importance of the institutional church (over against parachurch competitors), and the degree to which cultural or civilizational Christianity reinforces church ties. Among the titles that we mentioned in connection with the effects of the Cold War on church life in the United States were Stephen Bullivant's Nonverts: The Making of Ex-Christian America; Darin Lenz's article, "'Hail Luther's Contribution': A Sixteenth-Century Reformer in Cold War America" in Church History; and Kirk Farney's Ministers of a New Medium: Broadcasting Theology in the Radio Ministries of Fulton J. Sheen and Walter A. Maier. Even "The Crown" came up (still working on "The Wire") in relation to the episode that features Billy Graham's preaching for Queen Elizabeth (Season 2, ep.6).

No sponsors this time. We would hate to sully any company or institution with this sorry technological performance.

The Woody Allen movie, "Manhattan," includes a scene where two couples are walking and the one played by Michael Murphy and Diane Keaton unveil their Academy of Overrated. To this body they assign Gustav Mahler, Isak Dinesen, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Lenny Bruce, Norman Mailer, Mozart, , Vincent Van Gogh, and Ingmar Bergman. The co-hosts on this recording, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), consider their own list of overrated theologians. The ones discussed are Karl Barth, the recently deceased Juergen Moltmann, and C. S. Lewis.

The reason behind raising the question is not to belittle any of these theologians' achievements but to consider how it is that a theologian -- when there are so many -- emerges as the "go to" authority for ending a doctrinal debate. It also relates to confessional Protestant theological traditions in which those students training for a specific communion are going to be much more likely to read theologians in the Lutheran, Reformed, or Anglican traditions -- instead of reading broadly in the theologians who transcend specific Protestant communions. A final thread of conversation was whether the "big names" of Protestant theology can survive in an age of megachurches and church planting networks.

The sponsor this time is Ethan's Donut Factory in downtown Hillsdale, Michigan.

The co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith @IVMiles (Anglican), and D. G. Hart @oldlife (Presbyterian) have returned to campus and are so dedicated to their audience that they carved out time before the semester starts to talk about denominational news. Summers are when the NBA hosts its championship so that commissioners from confessional Protestant communions have something to watch after denominational meetings. The co-hosts go through the round-up of denominational news and even though the Lutherans did not meet Korey Maas explains the peculiarities of Missouri Synod polity.

The hosts also discuss the relative toxicity of David French (who was invited to a Presbyterian General Assembly only to be uninvited) and Carl Trueman who drew crowds at an Anglican synod (Diocese of the Living Word).

For anyone outside a denomination and feeling a hankering for this sort of Christian organization, Ross Douthat's nostalgia for the Protestant mainline in the United States may suggest the value of such structures. Yuval Levin's own positive estimate of institutions is another reason to consider the superiority of denominations to networks and church-planting start-ups.

Keep an eye out for a live Paleo Protestant Pudcast sometime in September. Information will be forthcoming (dv).

The whole crew (D. G. Hart-Presbyterian, Korey Maas-Lutheran, and Miles Smith-Anglican) returns in this discussion of Miles's review of several recent books by evangelicals who left evangelicalism to become - you guessed it - exvangelicals. These books parallel the rise and fall of the Young Restless Reformed which was the subject of this article. These trends also coincide with the increase of Americans who qualify as "nonverts," that is, people who used to identify as some version of Christian and now consider themselves "none," as in having no religion.

For those who consider the importance of institutions, especially for confessional Protestants with a high doctrine of the church, these trends present serious dilemmas for the ongoing ministry of word and sacrament through the agency of an institutional church (sometimes known as denomination). Confessional Protestants generally take denominational structures for granted even though since the rise of the megachurch (1990s), followed by social network forms of Christian cooperation and aspiration (Gospel Coalition and Acts 29, for example), more and more American Christians are unfamiliar with the institutional mechanisms for organizing ministry and belonging.

What may be especially intriguing for those with ears to be intrigued is that the shelf-life of recent evangelical endeavors in church planting run out of steam and done so almost as fast (as they tell us) as the planet is heating up.

Summer is too short for advertisements. But Twitter access is still available for Miles Smith @ivmiles and D. G. Hart @oldlife. Please do not bother Korey Maas. He has an academic department to run.

Summer has made convening the co-hosts more challenging than when the academic calendar locks these confessional Protestants down. For this episode, the pudcast needed to aspire to Internet greatness without the presence of our Lutheran colleague, Korey Maas. This left D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) and Miles Smith (Anglican) to talk about Mile's new book, Religion and Republic: Christian America from the Founding to the Civil War. The conversation explores the Protestant character of American society before 1865 without having an established church. What the United States did have was the host of voluntary societies and organizations about which Alexis de Toqueville marvelled, institutions that shaped public and private sentiments in ways that were not doctrinaire but were generically Protestant. These realities lead inevitably to questions about what relevance or wisdom this era of American history has for current elbow-throwing and breast-beating about Christian nationalism.

This recording has no sponsor but if it did, it would have to be the publisher of Miles' book, the Davenant Press.

Follow Miles Smith on Twitter @ivmiles and D. G. Hart @oldlife. Korey Maas remains inaccessible.

One reason for the appeal of Christian Nationalism - either in its current form or its 1980s Moral Majority version - is the loss of moral norms in the wider society. American Christians (Protestants more than Roman Catholics) functioned in their society relatively comfortably with generic Christian morality as the standard for public and private behavior. As a moral consensus has eroded (is Donald Trump up or down stream from Pride Month?), churches may need to be more intentional about the basics of Christian morality than they were in previous generations.

This discussion among the co-hosts - D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), Korey Maas (Lutheran), and Miles Smith (Anglican) goes fairly deep into the weeds of preaching the law with the unexpected twist of the Lutheran leading the charge for application and moral exhortation in sermons.

Later in the recording, the co-hosts also discuss the legitimacy of churches having a one-strike-and-you're-out policy for church officers who commit adultery through sexual sin. Is plagiarism in preaching as bad as adultery? Or do sexual offenses compromise a church officer's integrity in ways unlike other breaches of the moral law?

Apologies to listeners for taking so long to post this recording. Hiccups in schedules and switching podcast platforms are partly to blame.

The confessional Protestants from south central Michigan return to the topic of the last conversation - how much Christianity in the modern West dependes on the Roman Catholic Church -- with particular reference to the cover that Rome gives to Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians. For instance, can our communions oppose abortion more plausibly and vigorously because Rome, a big player in world affairs, already does?

Co-hosts, Miles Smith (Anglican), D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), and Korey Maas (Lutheran) approach this question with help from two recent articles that make a point about an affinity between Protestants and Roman Catholics that keep the former from being able to disregard the latter's recent disputes over blessing same-sex unions. One is by Carl Trueman at First Things, the other by Hans Boersma at Touchstone Magazine.

This recording's sponsor is the New Heights podcast with the Kelce brothers, Jason and Travis, an easier arrangement than obtaining Taylor Swift's blessing.

Listeners may follow two of the hosts @IVMiles and @oldlife. Korey Maas' administrative duites mean email is his social medium.

(Many thanks to our Southern audio engineer who makes the pudcast possible.)

This relatively brief conversation is downstream from previous discussions and arguments about Christian Nationalism first at Reformed Forum and then at Presbycast. Dr. Miles Smith (Anglican) and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) had the benefit this time of Dr. Korey Maas' (Lutheran) presence to function as the adult in the room. Topics ranged from the generational appeal of Christian Nationalism (boomers turn out to be reliable -- who knew?), the traction it receives among Lutherans in the LCMS, and the erosion of confidence or participation in civic and ecclesiastical institutions. The co-hosts did not have enough time for discussion of Miles Smith's forthcoming book which bears directly on the Christian, more precisely Protestant, character of American political institutions in the Early Republic.

Listeners can follow Dr. Smith (@IVMiles) and Dr. Hart (@oldlife) on X (formerly Twitter). To keep up with Dr. Maas, follow him following his children.

The Pudcast and co-hosts return thanks to the news coming out of the Middle East and stories about American Protestants' understanding of Israel and Jews.

Co-hosts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Lutheran) talk about eschatology, Protestant familiarity with Israel (thanks at least to the Old Testament), the degree to which confessional Protestants (unlike American men who think about Rome) think about Jerusalem. Among the items mentioned during this session are: Roland H. Bainton and Menachem Begin, "Luther and the Jews in Light of his Lectures on Genesis: An Exchange of Letters," Lutheran Theological Journal 17 (1983) 131-34; the documentary, When Jews Were Funny; Gerald McDermott's case for Christian Zionism; Gardiner H. Shattuck's recent book, Christian Homeland, on American Episcopalians in the Middle East; and Miles Smith's article on anti-Semitism and American patriotism.

No advertisements this time - our marketing division has lost key players.

Listeners may follow two of the hosts @IVMiles and @oldlife. Korey Maas continues to avoid social media.

(Many thanks to our Southern audio engineer who makes this pudcast possible.)

After a long hiatus, the Hillsdale History Protestant confessionalists are back to talk about denominations under the broader heading of institutional Christianity. Co-hosts include Korey Maas, resident Lutheran, Miles Smith, resident Anglican, and D. G. Hart, resident (alien) Presbyterian. A question that haunts confessional Protestants is whether denominations as a vehicle for ministry have run out of steam thanks to the rise of megachurches, affinity networks among congregations of a particular spiritual hue, and the appeal of social media in creating platforms for cooperation among like minded Protestants outside the formal mechanisms of a denomination. Relevant reading that informed the discussion were pieces by Aaron Renn, Jake Meador, and Ross Douthat on the Protestant mainline denominations. Also of relevance is the example of Tim Keller who was in the Presbyterian Church of America while also creating a number of vehicles for ministry outside the denomination. One last consideration is the work of Yuval Levin on the decline of institutions in American life more generally.

As usual, listeners can follow Miles Smith and D. G. Hart on X (Twitter). Those who want to follow Korey Maas need to pound sand.

On July 28, 1881, J. Gresham Machen was born in Baltimore, Maryland. Four decades later he was an important figure in the Presbyterian controversy between conservatives and modernists, thanks in part to his 1923 book, Christianity and Liberalism, which (if you do the math) turns 100 this year.

Co-hosts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Lutheran) talked earlier this week about Machen, his book, and the author's significance. This may look like shameless self-promotion on the part of the Presbyterian co-host whose dissertation at Johns Hopkins University turned into an intellectual biography of Machen, and who later wrote a book on confessional Protestantism inspired by Machen's own defense of the Reformed confessions for his own Presbyterian Church, U.S.A. But because of the 100th anniversary of Christianity and Liberalism, many editors (print and audio) have been holding forums on Machen. We figured, much to the relief of the Presbyterian co-host, that if Lutherans and Baptists could devote podcasts to Machen and his book, why not the only pan-confessional confessional pudcast IN THE WORLD!?!

This episode takes the Machen temperature of Anglicans and Lutherans and also delves into the reception of Machen within each of the co-host's formation and education.

No sponsors this time, but if editors publishing reprints of Christianity and Liberalism want to send us a thank-you note, we would be delighted to hear from them.

Listeners may not follow Miles Smith or D. G. Hart any more on Twitter. They must now use X for @IVMiles and @oldlife. Maybe the change of platforms will finally capture Korey Maas.

(many thanks to our Southern audio engineer who makes this pudcast possible.)

Did you know that the enrollment of Mennonite students at denominational colleges is in decline (and has been or a decade)? You probably didn't and you may not care if you have traditional confessional Protestant disregard for Anabaptists. But that trend is not isolated among Mennonites. Evangelical colleges have struggled with declining applications and enrollments even to the point where -- despite changing from colleges to "universities" -- administrators gut departments in the humanities. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod colleges are not immune to these challenges.

Even while Christian colleges struggle in the United States, the growth of classical Christian schools and academies (not to mention charter schools and homeschooling) show that parents are more active in superintending the primary and secondary education of their kids. In the case of families and churches where children are catechized and also receive religious reinforcement at school, what is the point of such a child going to a Christian college? If kids already have a solid religious and educational training, what value does Christian higher education add (especially if it is expensive)?

These were questions co-hosts ⁠⁠⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Lutheran) kicked around during a recent recording. The discussion was very much open-ended -- many more questions than answers. But everyone did seem to agree that Christian schooling in America may be going through a transition that could well leave Christian higher education in the lurch.

This recording was obviously sponsored by Hillsdale College, a Christian college of an unusual kind, even though the institution went unnamed to protect the innocent.

Listeners may follow us on Twitter @IVMiles and @oldlife. Dr. Maas refuses followers.

This recording takes a different direction as co-hosts ⁠⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠⁠ (Lutheran) welcome Aaron Renn to the Paleo-Protestant Pudcast. Aaron Renn is a consultant and keen observer of American cities and social trends who has taken an active interest in American Christianity and political conservatism. Many will know him from his First Things piece on the three worlds of evangelicalism (positive, neutral, and negative). Those observations are relevant for his concerns about why evangelicals are second-class citizens in the world of American conservatism (politics). For listeners wanting a deeper dive into the place of American Protestantism within elite culture and institutional networks in the United States, his essay on the sociologist who invented the phrase - White Anglo-Saxon Protestant - and an interview about the essay are well worth consulting. Among the many hats that Aaron Renn wears, his editorial work and writing for the American Reformer is likely the one that connects most directly to confessional Protestantism. We talked for a while and could have talked longer about evangelicals, political conservatism, confessional Protestants, the value of denominations as institutions, and the cultivation of Protestant intellectuals.

This recording did not have an announced sponsor, but it may have well been Aaron Renn's substack which is the place to go to see Aaron wear most of his many hats.

Listeners may follow him at @aaron_renn but only after they follow @IVMiles and @oldlife. We all pine for Dr. Maas to do more than lurk on Twitter.

Anglicans were in the news in April which provoked co-hosts ⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠ (Lutheran) to talk about they way confessional states operate in comparison to confessional churches. Are confessional states like England or Scotland stricter than their respective national churches? How strict can churches be when their punitive instruments are ministerial and declarative? Also, can confessional churches have more freedom in a liberal society that separates church and state than in one with an established church? Are confessional Lutherans and confessional Presbyterians in the United States more confessional than their counterparts in Europe where ecclesiastical establishments still exist?

News that led to these questions was first the decision of the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) to re-order the Anglican communion away from the See of Canterbury (which has functioned as "first among equals" among bishops). The reason for this resolve was the Church of England's General Synod's decision to bless same-sex unions.

This piece of ecclesiastical business dovetailed with an article about the new confessional state in Britain, one that is progressive and almost as restrictive as the old confessional state of England prior to the 1829 Emancipation of Roman Catholics (and related recognition of Protestant Dissenters. The essay about the new confessional state made the arresting point that the new terms of orthodoxy, because always evolving and independent of legal mechanisms, are illiberal. Under the old confessional state, subjects knew at least what the rules were and how to seek a remedy. But in the new confessional state, rules from a 2023 orthodoxy could substantially differ the "current thing" three years down the line.

This episode's sponsor is Brunswick, the company that puts the ow in bowling.

Follow us at @IVMiles and @oldlife. If you want Korey Maas' email address, send us a direct message at Twitter.

This time co-hosts ⁠Miles Smith⁠ (Anglican), ⁠D. G. Hart⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠Korey Maas⁠ (Lutheran) talk about the limitations of the American Protestant binary that divides white Protestants into either evangelicals or mainline (can you say "liberal"?). If a Protestant group doesn't fit one of those molds, that leaves "fundamentalist"? The inhumanity!

Each of our communions has brushes with positions, episodes, and sensibilities that might produce charges of make fundamentalism. At the same time, in a world of getting along either for the sake of mainline Protestant ecumenism or evangelical niceness, polemics about doctrine, liturgy, or even the church calendar can strike moderate Protestants and outside observers as mean and therefore fundamentalist.

To help with this session's talking points, panelists mention several books that might be useful for listeners wanting to get up to speed on confessional Protestants in relation to fundamentalism. These include:

Milton Rudnick, Fundamentalism & the Missouri Synod Allen Guelzo, For the Union of Evangelical Christendom: The Irony of the Reformed Episcopalians James Christian Burkee, Power, Politics, and the Missouri Synod: A Conflict That Changed American Christianity Ronald L. Numbers, The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design D. G. Hart, The Lost Soul of American Protestantism D. G. Hart, Defending the Faith: J. Gresham Machen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in Modern America

No sponsors this time. The pudcast was hoping for something Big Pharma related since the television series Dopesick made a deep impression. But reading upbeat copy about a genuine social crisis is not what fundamentalists or confessional Protestants do.

Follow us @IVMiles and @oldlife. Korey Maas remains unfollowable.

In this conversation, co-hosts Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) lean heavily on Korey Maas (Lutheran) to make sense of the dust up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod over a new edition of Luther's Large Catechism. It comes from Concordia Publishing House and includes essays on various theological and moral topics. Some in the LCMS have detected the fingerprints of progressive politics (or worse) in some of the essays even while others regard those critics as leaning too far to the Right. This controversy relates to Presbyterians and Reformed Protestants (discussed in a previous episode) at their General Assemblies and Synods last summer potentially reflecting the nation's political climate more than they imagine. These incidents raise questions about the ability of confessional Protestants to escape some of the moral assumptions that drive so many of the contemporary partisan divides. If, for instance, even the deepest die-hard fans of Penn State football could not resist the rush to judgment in the Jerry Sandusky scandal (listen to this podcast to get up to speed), how well do Protestants, even with the good bones of Reformation-era confessions and functioning church polities, escape the most popular interpretations of news events and national politics?

This episode's sponsor is Anthony Milton's recent book, England's Second Reformation: The Battle for the Church of England, 1625-1662.

Follow us @IVMiles and @oldlife. Korey Maas remains unfollowable.

After a holiday break, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) catch up on highlights of downtime (and don't even mention the liturgical calendar) and then converse about a species of Protestant that goes by the name, "ecclesiocentric post-liberals." A mouthful. The essay that was in the background of this discussion is here.

The question of ecclesiocentrism (post-liberal or not) is of some import to confessional Protestants because Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have long contended that evangelicals, without an ecclesiology or liturgy, largely find spiritual outlets in personal devotion and parachurch endeavors. In other words, evangelicals don't think much about church which means that confessional Protestantism is an ecclesiocentric alternative for serious Protestants. But from an ecclesiocentric post-liberal perspective, confessional Protestants aren't ecclesicentric enough. That may make sense from Rome's perspective, but from fellow modern Protestants? Related to the article linked above is this podcast which is an ongoing discussion of ecclesiocentric post-liberalism.

This episode's sponsor is the Department of Transportation.

It's the most wonderful time of the year because we have so many seasons to observe (do liturgical calendar adherents really think they can have it to themselves?). We have post-Thanksgiving nostalgia, the start of league play in NCAA DII basketball, the end of the academic term with finals and grading, Advent, and the excess of Christmas provides welcome push back to stale Halloween lawn displays.

In this session co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) discuss those seasons with Advent taking up the majority of oxygen. With hopes of not upsetting Anglican and Lutheran colleagues and listeners, Presbyterians may remain skeptical about the liturgical calendar and continue to wonder if the spiritual benefits that come with Advent are not more possible with fifty-two sanctified Lord's Days. Heck, with Sabbatarianism you don't even have to put up with Lady Gaga and Dean Martin Christmas albums.

This episode's sponsor is The Crown. As Mr. Biden say, "no joke."

Follow Dr. Smith and Dr. Hart on Twitter. Email Dr. Maas at Hillsdale College.

At the end of the previous recording, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) were talking about expectations for being a good Anglican, Lutheran, or Presbyterian. One consideration not often in the equation is singing in worship. When a church member not only shows up for the service, but pulls out the hymnal and sings along with the rest of the saints the song selected by the pastor or priest, is he or she making any kind of show of devotion? The answer "yes" is plausible if only because a worshiper could easily not sing and no one would object.

This time the interlocutors get personal and talk about which hymns and Psalms are their favorites along the way to talking about the Anglican, Lutheran, and Presbyterian traditions of congregational singing. Listeners may be surprised to hear about the importance of Psalm singing, the relatively recent innovations of introducing hymns, and the difference that speaking German or English makes to a Protestant communion. One book about the history of hymnody in North America mentioned was Singing the Lord's Song in a Strange Land.

Follow Dr. Smith and Dr. Hart on Twitter. Dr. Maas is hopeless.

Our sponsor this episode is the Philips Digital Airfryer with Fat Removal Technology. Remember: Maximum Taste, Minimum Fat.

In history and geography, Presbyterians are adjacent to Puritans, which makes them "hot" Protestants in the sense that they exhibit forms of piety more intense, more holiness forward than other confessional Protestants. That is the reputation anyway for British Protestantism in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Over time, Presbyterians became synonymous with "God's frozen chosen" because their worship is and remains (for some) so dull and lacking in energy.

Heat and cold are not the best descriptors of piety.

Behind measurements of pious temperature is a bigger question about how to practice your faith once you have found out, "what must I do to be saved?" Do Presbyterians have a more ardent piety Anglicans and their prayer books or Lutherans and their daily prayers? What does it mean to be a good Anglican, or a good Lutheran, or a good Presbyterian?

In this conversation, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) talk about expectations for piety and being a member in "good standing" within their own parishes and congregations and also in the larger Anglican, Lutheran, and Presbyterian traditions. How much Christian devotion is too much? Can you even ask that question? Confessional Protestants have answers and also more questions.

Follow Dr. Smith and Dr. Hart on Twitter. Continue to pray for Dr. Maas to join Twitter.

Upstream from Christian nationalism, the topic of our last discussion, is the use to which historians of the United States have put denominational or church history in describing American identity (and with it American nationalism). In this recording, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) talk about Anglican, Lutheran, and Presbyterian reactions to the way two or three generations of American historians, literary scholars, and faculty in related fields after World War II used Puritanism to understand the mission, purpose, and meaning of the United States. (Abram C. Van Engen's City on a Hill is one recent example of the way Puritanism became the distillation of American identity during the Cold War.)

Debates among historians of the Episcopal Church in the United States (Allen Guelzo and Thomas C. Reeves contested the high vs. low-church character of the denomination back in 1993 and 1994 in the pages of Anglican and Episcopal History) are exemplary of the way denominations can react to questions about a communion's own history independent its relationship to narratives about Christianity's influence on a nation's development. Another is to weave, as Presbyterians did, your own denomination into the success of the United States.

Though the lessons from this discussion are hardly reducible to a bumper sticker, the place of Protestantism in the American narrative is a topic that continues to be part of the study of American history. That in turn has implications for the way confessional Protestants tell their own histories and conceive of Lutheran, Anglican, or Presbyterian identity over against or alongside American national identity.

Follow Dr. Smith and Dr. Hart on Twitter. Pray for Dr. Maas to join Twitter.

The Magisterial Reformation was one version of Christian nationalism way before evangelical historians and hysteria prone journalists discovered the sources of support for Donald Trump. Co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of Anglican, Lutheran, and Presbyterian hopes for and reliance on civil government. They kick off the discussion in reference to two pieces that describe Christian nationalism in damning terms, one at Mere Orthodoxy and the other at CNN. (Truth be told, even before this, they assess the ties between Anglicanism and North Carolina barbecue.) Listeners may be disappointed not have all questions answered or tidy definitions distributed (always set expectations low), but they may benefit from hearing a perspective that considers the churches' relationship to civil authority going all the way back to Constantine.

Recommended readings: Miles Smith has been busy here here here here and here. Korey Maas and D. G. Hart have been reading this and that.

This recording's sponsor - don't forget to use the coupon "LexingtonBarbecue."

Too much for any single podcast to cover, but the regulars, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) give it their best college try. The topic that was supposed to drive this conversation was the annual meeting of synods and general assemblies. But because Presbyterians are much better organized (some call it anal) than Anglicans and Lutherans, the confessional Protestants only had the Christian Reformed Church Synod, and the General Assemblies of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian Church in America to discuss, though Dr. Smith did bring up a convention of his ACNA Synod. What kicked off the episode was the LCMS President's statement on abortion, which might have seemed surprising to those who assume two-kingdom theology means silence about public affairs. The co-hosts also had a few brief words about Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Presbyterianism in Canada and the challenges of communions ministering across national borders.

A new feature with this episode was recommendations for reflection about confessional Protestantism. Miles Smith wrote a piece on theonomy that is especially relevant for American Presbyterians but that also applies to any Protestant communion where Christendom still has some appeal. Korey Maas also recommended a piece by Jake Meador about Christendom in relation to the current predicament of religion and American politics after Roe v. Wade. And D. G. Hart recommended the fraternal address from the United Reformed Churches to the OPC by Pastor Brian Lee, about to be published in the July issue of the Nicotine Theological Journal. Somewhat outside the box, but of relevance for thinking about membership and belonging to the church (whichever one that's relevant), was a discussion between Glenn Loury and Nikita Petrov about national and racial identity and the degree to which members of groups and nations benefit from but also bear responsibility for the larger body of rulers, bad actors, and members.

This recording may be best consumed while waiting for the coals in the grill to turn orange.

Another potentially controversial subject -- especially given Presbyterians' tradition of kvetching (and more) about prayer books -- but once more co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) avoid conflict. It's a shame.

This recording's subject is the degree to which confessional Protestants rely upon read or formal prayers, how that affects occasions (like men's Bible study) when spontaneous prayer may be in order, and the effects on devotion in the home. Why did Jesus teach his followers to pray and what does that instruction imply for distinguishing better from worse ways of addressing God?

Through it all in the subtext is the question of the sort of piety and even temperament that gravitates to either formal or extemporaneous prayers. Listeners can be grateful that all the interlocutors favor congregational singing that relies on written verse instead of spontaneous (even if holy) utterance.

Christians on social media got a lot of mileage out of typing "He is risen!" on a specific Sunday in April. Some Presbyterians wondered about all the hub bub since during the week leading up to Easter Sunday, Jesus was was risen on each and every day. This episode brings co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), together to talk about Easter, the liturgical calendar, and what it means or doesn't mean to them. The hope was for interlocutors to take off the gloves and show their sectarian sides. But all remained calm and collected. Too bad, since the question of following the church calendar in relation to being a confessional Protestant may be significant in understanding shades of Protestantism.

This episode's sponsor -- too little too late -- was Armbrust USA-Made Surgical Masks, which come in six different shades.

The short answer is: go back to the early days of First Things and convince its founding editor, Richard John Neuhaus, not to convert to Roman Catholicism. Short of that, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) consider why Roman Catholics have so many magazines and Protestants are limited to Christian Century, Christianity Today, and World Magazine (which is in a long winded way the successor to J. Gresham Machen's Presbyterian Guardian). The reason for asking is the recent founding of yet another Roman Catholic publication, Compact. It now joins the ranks of Crisis, National Review, American Affairs, Public Discourse, and The Lamp (among others). All of these are outlets for American conservatism as well as forums for frustrations with the liberal aspects of such conservatism. For anyone curious about the Roman Catholic presence in, if not creation of American conservatism, have we got a book for you. By the way, Roman Catholics also have America (a Jesuit magazine) and Commonweal (run by the laity) which produce thoughtful articles and reviews on church and society and more. So why can't Protestants match Roman Catholics? Sometimes confessional Protestants have produced publications, such as the Reformed Journal and Cresset. Evangelicals even tried a book review, Books & Culture. But in general, Roman Catholics seem to outperform Protestants in serious publications. (Sometimes, all confessional Presbyterians can muster is the Nicotine Theological Journal, a glorified newsletter.)

Listeners beware: the reasons available in this episode are messy and not always satisfying.

This episode's sponsor is New Balance's The 574.

This conversation took place before Spring Break. Listeners will decide how well it aged. The question before the co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), was whether Confessional Protestants have any stake in either a David-French-like defense of Drag Queen Story Hour or a Sohrab Ahmari denunciation of such public events as the inevitable result of political liberalism. In other words, what alternatives do Protestants have other than integralism (Ahmari) or evangelical niceness (French)? Spoiler alert: Protestants do have alternatives but identifying what they are precisely may require a semester rather than a pudcast. Listeners may follow some of the co-hosts on Twitter @IVMiles and @oldlife.

This recording was sponsored by the Library of America, volume 19, Edgar Allan Poe: Poetry and Tales.

(Thanks again to friends in the podcasting world for assistance with production.)

In this recording Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) take the temperature of confessional Protestants. The notion of a "hot" Protestant has less to do with sexual appeal than with intense piety. Michael Winship's book on the Puritans uses "hot" to describe those English Protestants who were eager to carry out the reformation in the Church of England as well as in the lives, families, and vocations of believers. A similar tendency was evident in the most zealous of Scottish Protestants who wanted Presbyterian rather than episcopal government in the Church of Scotland. That historical record suggests that Presbyterians are more prone to run a fever, which is ironic since for much of the twentieth century Presbyterians had the reputation of being "God's frozen chosen."

Hotness is not peculiar to Presbyterianism, though. Lutherans have had their challenges with Pietists, another set of Protestants who challenged the official and seemingly cold versions of Lutheranism. Meanwhile, Anglicans have always had to decide whether the metric of high church or low church is inversely proportional to the heat of Anglican piety. Low church Anglicans have often favored hotter forms of devotion and in the twentieth century that preference veered into charismatic expressions of piety.

Lots of discussion in this episode. Listeners will have to judge the degree of heat or light.

The regular interlocuters, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), finally get to politics -- church life can only hold your attention for so long. The reason for the shift in discussion is the larger critique that Roman Catholics and Protestants are making against political liberalism (short hand for representative government, constitutionalism, separation of powers, civil and religious liberty). (For an evangelical -- largely squishy -- take on the matter, see this.) These criticisms raise a larger question about the confessional Protestant churches that emerged with the Reformation. Since they depended on the civil magistrate -- we call it the "magisterial" Reformation, after all -- are confessional Protestants ill served by a liberal political order? Listeners will hear about the different approaches among the three confessional churches in conversation and may even be tempted to ponder the effects of the American political and cultural environment on confessional Protestant churches.

Trigger warning: find something to bite to preserve your nails.

It is likely obvious by now that Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) together are not as funny as Lutheran Satire (Dr. Maas on his own may manifest the Lutheran spiritual gift). That is a backhanded way of saying that this episode's discussion of Christmas, Advent, and December congregational singing is not nearly as pointed or as amusing as Martin Luther Yelling about Inferior Anglican Christmas Hymns. (This episode's title comes from Luther's yelling on that video.) But the interlocutors do lay out some of the differences among Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Anglicans over the liturgical calendar and the songs that accompany them. We do even bring up whether German hymnody receives less attention thanks to the demands of English as the native tongue for confessional Protestants in North America.

Bonus content: Dr. Maas and Dr. Smith preached on the same Sunday in Advent from similar texts in the Lectionary. They compare notes. Dr. Hart is shocked.

Bonus bonus content: bumper music.

Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) do their impersonations of evangelicals and give their testimonies in this episode. That's a way of saying they describe the biographical route by which they came to Lutheran, Anglican, and Presbyterian churches, respectively. Spoiler alert: theology is important (even for Anglicans). Related: education and catechesis are also important. What may be surprising is the influence that Francis Schaeffer had on three American Protestants, in different communions, who became adults in different decades, while living and pursuing academic degrees in different regions of the United States. A question unanswered is the degree to which these stories are characteristic of cis-gender men or whether they might also apply to women.

Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) return to talk about the way that our different communions use and rely on our confessions (Book of Concord, Thirty-Nine Articles, and the Westminster Standards). We even go into the weeds of subscription, a topic that Presbyterians may have thought they owned but is also relevant to Lutherans. These men even talked about revisions to confessions and whether that undermines the status of the original confessions. Don't be surprised by the relative reticence of our Anglican interlocutor since the Church of England and its subsidiaries has shown greater attention to adhering to the Book of Common Prayer than to the (highly Calvinistic) Thirty-Nine Articles.

What makes Lutheran worship different from Anglican or Presbyterian forms? Would your average Anglican miss the hymns in an Anglican service? Why do Presbyterian services give so much time to the sermon? These were among several of the topics discussed in this recording with Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian). Spoiler alert: contemporary Protestants struggle with worship devices such as a prayer book.

Yes, that's a bit of a tease (maybe more) but it may be the best way to encourage people to listen to a conversation about church polity. Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have many differences in theology and worship and these are likely the easiest to identify. But when it comes to the structures of government that bind and unify each of these confessional Protestant communions, awareness likely diminishes.

In this recording Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) talk about the structures and procedures that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the Anglican Church in North America, and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church use to regulate church life. They also discuss the degree to which church government is part of a Lutheran, Anglican, and Presbyterian identity. Spoiler alert: Presbyterians put church government into their very own denominational label, and yet members of Presbyterian churches often do not know the basics of their own communion's government. Why Presbyterians have been so particular historically about church polity and what it means for the health of Presbyterianism that many church members are unaware of ecclesiastical government lurk in the background of this session. Spooky.

So does Mark Driscoll who it turns out decided not to become ordained by an existing church but chose to start his own (along with a larger network of churches). Which leaves two questions: does church government scare American Protestant entrepreneurs away (it is a self-selecting mechanism)? If Driscoll had been ordained in a confessional Protestant church, could one of those bodies have saved him from himself?

Confessional Protestants are again NOT in the news thanks in part to a new survey that breaks the white Protestant world in the U.S. down into either evangelical or mainline Protestant camps. Korey Maas, Miles Smith, and D. G. Hart (aka Bob Dole) aimed at using the recent headlines surrounding those survey results to consider what the Protestant equivalent would be to the Roman Catholic intellectual landscape that Ross Douthat outlined in First Things. As it turned out, discussion of the value, plausibility, and deficiency of evangelical as descriptor took more time than planned. But the creation of the so-called evangelical mind, it could well be, is responsible for a failure to recognize the contributions of confessional Protestants. Equally plausible is the possibility that confessional Protestants themselves have lost touch with the intellectual tradition (authors, curricula, academic disciplines) that were the backdrop for the scholars and pastors who produced the Protestant confessions. In which case, if Roman Catholics present a thicker intellectual tradition than Protestants, the reason could be that their institutions have kept their intellectual traditions alive better than Protestants who may have been tempted to throw their intellectual energies into the evangelical mind.

Along the way the interlocutors referred to Miles Smith's recent essay on evangelical elites and to the range of Christian writers and scholars that Ken Myers hosts on the Mars Hill Audio Journal.

The stories we tell about ourselves, our nations, and our communions matter for how we understand ourselves. Whether church history should matter as much as it does to Anglican, Lutheran, or Presbyterian identity, the origins, controversies, splits, and turning points in a communion's history matter for how church members understand themselves in relation to a Christian tradition and its ecclesiastical embodiment. It doesn't make a lot of sense, for instance, for Anglicans and Lutherans to see themselves as part of the Second Not So Great Awakening since perfectionism, holiness, and Arminianism characterized those revivals. But when it comes to the First Pretty Good Awakening, the presence of an Anglican priest (George Whitefield) and a one-time Presbyterian (Jonathan Edwards) may tempt Anglicans and Presbyterians in different degrees to identify with that time of religious fervor (and with the later evangelical movement).

This episode was the occasion for Korey Maas, Miles Smith, and D. G. Hart (aka Bob Dole) to talk about the status of the history of Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and Presbyterianism (and help Dr. Smith get ready for this course). They took the temperature of the appeal of church history to the laity and church members in their communions. They also discussed the challenge of telling a denomination's history in relation to the history of nation-states (why do American historians get to confine their inquiry almost solely to the geographic borders of the United States while Europeanists have to juggle all the pieces of Western Christianity and the big and small nations of Europe?). They also referred to Christian nationalism in places like France and Spain (which are topics on another podcast about Religious Nationalism).

The talkers also talk about the larger-than-life presence of Lutherans (Jaroslav Pelikan, Lewis Spitz, Marty Marty, Sydney Ahlstrom) in the field of church history a generation or two ago? Does that mean that Lutherans have a greater historical awareness than Presbyterians and Anglicans? If that question doesn't encourage you to listen, what will?

In this recording, the Anglican (Miles Smith), the Lutheran (Korey Maas), and the Presbyterian (D. G. Hart), each a white Protestant man in case you did not notice, talk about pressures among confessional Protestants to open ordination beyond historic limits. It is another way of asking where the lines are between the tasks reserved for those ordained and what lay people (men or women) may legitimately do in "ministry." If every member is a minister, according to the logic of "every member ministry," does ordination mean anything? This conversation is adjacent to the one that Chortles Weakly and Wresbyterian had with Hans Fiene about women's ordination. We also mention Pastor Fiene's Twitter thread about horse bleep and bull bleep surrounding the hermeneutics of male ordination in the Pastoral Epistles. The subject of ministry turns out to be squishy and that lack of solidity is especially evident in Lutheran designations of parochial school teachers as "ministers," a designation that tried even the justices of the Supreme Court's sagacity.

Scientists tell us that people ideally go through 4 to 5 90-minute cycles of sleep, that run from wake to light sleep to deep sleep to REM before repeating the process. Church historians may be tempted to conclude that confessional Protestants go through similar cycles when it comes to social reform and political activism. In the nineteenth century, for instance, Lutherans and Episcopalians in the U.S. avoided splits over the sectional crisis unlike other Protestants. One reason was that they were reluctant, whether owing to theology or formal structures, to issue formal declarations about politics. (Presbyterians, inherently pushy and opinionated, divided into four communions.)

This episode takes the temperature of Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians on matters woke. What kind of statements have these communions issued, do generational differences characterize the membership and clergy, and which particular headlines generate the most concern among the faithful? Spoiler alert: no one on the recording, Korey Maas, Miles Smith, or D.G. Hart, adopt the mantle of John Knox.

For many confessional Protestants, this week is the big one, the Holy One. Which leads to questions about ways Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans mark time. Which days are holy, which seasons does the church follow, and to what degree does a liturgical calendar divide or separate Protestants who trace their roots to the sixteenth century?

Without surprise, Lutherans and Anglicans follow the church calendar more than Presbyterians and may vary in their reasons for observance. But Reformed Protestants designate some days as holy and may even elevate the week as a way of marking time over the rotation of the earth around the sun.

All this and maybe a little more on the latest recording of paleo-Protestants talking.

The three part series of comparing and contrasting confessional Protestant churches in the U.S. comes to a close with Presbyterians this time. Younger listeners may have a hard time understanding that during the two decades after World War II, Presbyterianism was in the sweet spot of American identity. Of course, that did not extend to conservative communions like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. But with POTUSes and movie stars lining up to commune in mainline Presbyterian congregations, you could readily find books like John A. Mackay's The Presbyterian Way of Life, which received this assessment from Kirkus Reviews:

Having been steeped in the Presbyterian tradition of his native Scotland, Dr. Mackay knows and loves the Presbyterian Church. In this book he deals with the background of the Presbyterian Church in the life and work of Calvin and in the Westminster Confession. He characterizes Presbyterians as a ""theological- concerned people"", and illustrates this characterization by reference to the Presbyterian doctrines dealing with God, man and the church. He describes the organization of the Presbyterian Church, the features of its worship and its relation to the world order. While a staunch Presbyterian, Dr. Mackay is not a narrow one and in his closing chapter he outlines the part that Presbyterians have played and are playing in the ecumenical movement. Those who have had experience in interdenominational enterprises know that Presbyterians can always be counted upon for cooperation. One reason for this is that the denomination has raised up many men of the liberal and progressive spirit of John Mackay.

Has Presbyterianism lost its way? Do Anglicans and Lutherans pay attention to Presbyterians? If so, as partners, a threat, or as whackos? All this and more in this recording. Introductions to the pudcast and the interlocutors are available here.

The latest recording of three Protestant history professors talking shines the spotlight on Anglicanism with Dr. Miles Smith taking heat and receiving praise for his communion's contribution to confessional Protestantism. The conversation (with Dr. Korey Mass, the Lutheran, and Dr. D. G. Hart, the Presbyterian) began with recent news about Episcopalians' apologies for hosting evangelical celebrity pastor, Max Lucado, at the National Cathedral to preach. This item provided space for distinguishing Anglicans from Episcopalians. And that distinction in turn led to various questions about Anglican identity. Two recent books, mentioned at least, Gerald Bray's Anglicanism: A Reformed Catholic Tradition and Charles Erlandson's Orthodox Anglican Identity are valuable for answering those questions. Much of the discussion, though, revolved around the appeal of Anglicanism to evangelicals in contrast to the limits of such attraction among confessional Lutherans and Presbyterians. To borrow a line from H. L. Mencken, heave an egg down the hall of an evangelical institution in Wheaton, Illinois and you'll hit an Anglican.

No one died.

Hard questions on this episode, such as why Lutherans, who have the most members, don't get more respect from other Protestants. This is the first of several episodes (God willing) on prestige and status among confessional Protestants, such as how do they rank, who has the the most appeal to evangelicals, and what do Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans know about the other communions?

Still the same interlocutors, Korey Maas, Miles Smith (THE fourth), and D. G. Hart (introduced here).

For youngsters who don't know Rodney Dangerfield, here you go.

If you want to serve in a confessional Protestant communion as a minister, where should you go to seminary? Related to this is the role that seminaries play in the life of a denomination. Lutherans have closer ties to their seminaries, Presbyterians are all over the place (even though the OPC and PCA depended on seminaries for their start), and Anglicans rely often on evangelical and mainline institutions. Then there is the question of the laity (and especially women) and where they receive formal theological education. This episode has ideas, maybe a few answers.

Korey Maas teaches history at Hillsdale College. He also talks a lot about Lutheranism of the LCMS variety.

Miles Smith teaches history at Hillsdale College. He writes about Anglicanism.

D. G Hart teaches history at Hillsdale College. He talks about Presbyterians sometimes with other Presbyterians.

Thanks to Chortles Weakly for technical assistance.