Coaching for Leaders

Elaine Lin Hering: Unlearning Silence
Elaine Lin Hering is a facilitator, speaker, and writer who helps people build skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management. She is a former Managing Partner of Triad Consulting Group and Lecturer on Law at Harvard Law School, specializing in dispute resolution, mediation, and negotiation. She is the author of Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Your Talent, and Live More Fully.

Those of us who have struggled to speak up have been told, “Just be more confident,” or, “Say this to get started.” As Elaine and I discuss in this conversation, there’s a larger context at play…and great power for both leaders and the people they lead, in unlearning silence.
Key Points

Start with why. For change to actually happen, find something that matters more than the old behavior.
What seems obvious to us isn’t always obvious to others. Connecting the dots for others demonstrates the meaning you’re making.
Beginning a thought with, “From where I sit…” provides a entry point for what you need to say while also acknowledging different perspectives from others.
Most people want to be helpful, but don’t always know how. Tell them how they can be helpful in the moment.
Resistance is part of the process of influencing others. While it doesn’t feel good in the moment, it’s often the catalyst for creating movement.

Resources Mentioned

Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Your Talent, and Live More Fully* by Elaine Lin Hering

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Speak Up, with Connson Locke (episode 546)
End Imposter Syndrome in Your Organization, with Jodi-Ann Burey (episode 556)
The Mindset Leaders Need to Address Burnout, with Christina Maslach (episode 608)

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Sohee Jun
Sohee Jun is a leadership coach for female executives, leaders, founders, and entrepreneurs. She is also a TEDx speaker, Forbes Coaches Council member, keynote speaker, leadership development expert, and author. With over twenty years in the corporate world, she has worked with Fortune 500 companies, including those in the entertainment, production, and media sectors such as Netflix, Fox, and Disney.

In 2020, Sohee released her first book, Mommytracked: How to Take Authentic Risks and Find Success on Your Terms, with the goal of helping ambitious women tap into their inner core throughout the different phases of their lives. She's now the author of a second book, The Inner Game: Secrets of High-Achieving Women for Navigating Work, Life, and Mindset*.

In a world where still too few women are represented in senior leadership roles, many of us want to do whatever we can to support high-achieving women. In this conversation, Sohee and I explore what her research and experience indicates that leaders can do to better support women in their careers.
Key Points

Leaders can support both women and men by framing the larger “why” or North Star. Providing context helps a point of focus to emerge.
Do it afraid. Provide support to work through fearful situations with success.
When supporting women in building confidence, help them recognize what they’ve already achieved.
Normalize the discussion about financial literacy. Opening the door to dialogue around salary negotiation helps equalize the salary gap.
One question can set the tone for better work and life integration. Leaders can proactively ask about boundaries.

Resources Mentioned

The Inner Game: Secrets of High-Achieving Women for Navigating Work, Life, and Mindset* by Sohee Jun

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Prioritize, with Christy Wright (episode 545)
How to Protect Your Confidence, with Nate Zinsser (episode 573)
The Path Towards Your Next Promotion, with Adam Bryant (episode 653)

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Michael McQueen: Mindstuck
Michael McQueen has spent the past two decades helping organizations and leaders win the battle for relevance. He specializes in helping clients navigate uncertainty and stay one step ahead of change.

Michael is a bestselling author of nine books and a familiar face on the international conference circuit, having shared the stage with the likes of Bill Gates, Dr. John C. Maxwell, and Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak. Having formerly been named Australia’s Keynote Speaker of the Year, he has been inducted into the Professional Speakers Hall of Fame. He is the author of Mindstuck: Mastering the Art of Changing Minds*.

There’s a lot of evidence that our minds would rather feel right than be right. How then, do you influence someone when they are really convinced of their position? In this conversation, Michael and I discuss the initial steps that help in changing people’s minds.
Key Points

Our tendency is to convince to the inquiring mind, but we’ll do better if we speak to the instinctive mind first.
Help others lessen loss and maintain dignity by preserving titles, language, and symbols in things that are new.
Instead of trying making an argument, ask a question that allows the other person to listen to themselves.
Ask questions that clarify points of resistance or misunderstanding.
Speak like you’re right, listen like you’re wrong.

Resources Mentioned

Mindstuck: Mastering the Art of Changing Minds* by Michael McQueen

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

The Way to Influence Executives, with Nancy Duarte (episode 450)
Four Habits That Derail Listening, with Oscar Trimboli (episode 500)
Three Practices for Thriving in Negotiations, with William Ury (episode 669)

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Lauren Wesley Wilson: What Do You Need?
Lauren Wesley Wilson is a leading thought leader on media relations, diversity and inclusion, and crisis communications. At 25, she became the founder and CEO of ColorComm Corporation. Prior to that, Lauren worked as a communications strategist at a prestigious crisis communications firm in Washington, D.C.

Lauren has been featured in The Washington Post, Forbes, and People, as well as on MSNBC and CNBC, and more. She has been recognized by PR Week’s 50 Most Powerful in PR, Ad Age’s Women to Watch, and New York Women in Communications. She is the author of What Do You Need?: How Women of Color Can Take Ownership of Their Careers to Accelerate Their Path to Success*.

Many of us wish to be good allies in the workplace, especially to those who are underrepresented. Yet, what we assume that means isn’t always what’s most wanted or needed. In this conversation, Lauren and I discuss what leaders and peers can do to be better allies.
Key Points

Instead of asking “How can I help?” consider, “What do you need?” That’s more likely to generate specific actions.
Women of color feel like they are putting in tons of work into relationships with the majority culture, but it often feels unreciprocated.
White folks think of allyship as speaking out against discrimination. Women of color say it’s way more critical to advocate for new opportunities.
Tie allyship to economic goals: conference attendance, nominations for recognition, inclusion on high-profile committees, and position/promotion considerations.
Make invitations to people of color to be at the table. This contributes more substantially than proclamations of support.
When you make a mistake, apologize, own it, and move on. Don’t tell a story to explain yourself.

Resources Mentioned

What Do You Need?: How Women of Color Can Take Ownership of Their Careers to Accelerate Their Path to Success* by Lauren Wesley Wilson

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

The Way Managers Can be Champions for Justice, with Minda Harts (episode 552)
End Imposter Syndrome in Your Organization, with Jodi-Ann Burey (episode 556)
How to Respond Better When Challenged, with Dolly Chugh (episode 615)

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Ethan Mollick: Co-Intelligence
Ethan Mollick is a professor of management at Wharton, specializing in entrepreneurship and innovation. His research has been featured in various publications, including Forbes, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal.

Through his writing, speaking, and teaching, Ethan has become one of the most prominent and provocative explainers of AI, focusing on the practical aspects of how these new tools for thought can transform our world. He's the author of the popular One Useful Thing Substack and also the author of the book, Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI*.

Whether you’ve used it or not, you’ve heard that AI will transform how we work. Given how quickly the technology is changing, how do you start and, if you’ve started already, what’s the way to use it well? In this conversation, Ethan and I discuss the principles for using AI, even as the technology changes.
Key Points

GPT-4 is already passing the bar examination in the 90th percentile, acing AP exams, and even passing the Certified Sommelier Examination.
Always invite AI to the table. It’s may be helpful, frustrating, or useless — but understanding how it works will help you appreciate how it may help or threaten you.
Being the “human in the loop” will help you catch where AI isn’t accurate or helpful. Zeroing in on areas where you are already an expert will help you appreciate where AI is useful and where its limitation emerge.
Treat AI like a person, but tell it what kind of person it is. It’s helpful to think of AI like an alien person rather than a machine.
Assume this is the worst AI you will ever use. Embracing that reality will help you stay open to possibilities on how you use AI do your work better.

Resources Mentioned

Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI by Ethan Mollick

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Build an Invincible Company, with Alex Osterwalder (episode 470)
Doing Better Than Zero Sum-Thinking, with Renée Mauborgne (episode 641)
How to Begin Leading Through Continuous Change, with David Rogers (episode 649)

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Mike Caulfield: Verified
Mike Caulfield is a research scientist at the University of Washington’s Center for an Informed Public, where he studies the spread of online rumors and misinformation. He has taught thousands of teachers and students how to verify claims and sources through his workshops. His SIFT methodology is taught by hundreds of research libraries across North America, and a shorter version of SIFT instruction, developed with Google, has been taught in public libraries across the world.

His work on Web Literacy for Student Fact-Checkers, won the Merlot Award for best open learning resource in the ICT category. His work has been covered by The New York Times, the Chronicle of Higher Education, NPR, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and the MIT Technology Review. He is the author with Sam Wineburg of Verified: How to Think Straight, Get Duped Less, and Make Better Decisions about What to Believe Online*.

We’ve all seen something online that we thought was true, but turned out was a hoax. Annoying, but no big deal if it’s just an internet meme from a friend or family member. But what if what you find online isn’t at all what you thought and you make decisions or take action on it that affects your professional credibility? In this conversation, Mike and I discuss how to guard yourself from being duped.
Key Points

Rather than asking, “Is this true?” the more useful question is, “Do I know what I'm looking at here?”
The cheap signals many of us were trained to watch for (working links, attractive design, about pages, proper domains) are easy to replicate and no longer correlate to credibility.
Phrase questions to search engines in neutral ways for less biased results. Instead of “Are soda taxes a good idea?” ask “Do soda taxes work?”
While Wikipedia still has bias, it’s a far more credible source that many of us were taught — and a valuable source for a broad perspective of a topic or organization.
Intelligent people often read vertically, to their detriment. The best fact-checkers read laterally by using the rest of the web to read the web.
Watch for phrases like “sponsored content,” “brand partner,” “presented with,” “in partnership with,” “brought to you by,” “in association with,” or “hosted by.” These phrases signal advertisements.

Resources Mentioned

Verified: How to Think Straight, Get Duped Less, and Make Better Decisions about What to Believe Online* by Mike Caulfield and Sam Wineburg

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

The Way to Make Better Decisions, with Annie Duke (episode 499)
Get People Reading What You’re Sending, with Todd Rogers (episode 666)
How to Enhance Your Credibility (audio course)

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Mike Massimino: Moonshot
Mike Massimino is a former NASA astronaut and a professor of mechanical engineering at Columbia University. He's also the senior advisor for space programs at the Intrepid Sea, Air & Space Museum. He was selected as an astronaut by NASA in 1996, and is the veteran of two space flights, the fourth and fifth Hubble Space Telescope servicing missions in 2002 and 2009.

Mike has made numerous television appearances, including a six-time recurring role as himself on the CBS hit comedy The Big Bang Theory. He has hosted Science Channel’s The Planets and its special Great American Eclipse. Mike is the author of the New York Times bestselling book Spaceman and now his newest book Moonshot: A NASA Astronaut’s Guide to Achieving the Impossible.

Almost every leader and organization invites people to speak up and make their voice head. As we all know, that doesn’t means it happens in practice. In this conversation, Mike and I discuss how leaders can set the tone for what’s said, and what’s not.
Key Points

You’ll know when it’s time to speak up. Your cue is that hair-raising, sinking feeling in the moment of a high-stakes situation or the feeling of confusion in a less intense situation.
Outsiders and rookies are often the most observant people in the team since they are hyper-aware of doing something new and noticing details a veteran may miss.
It’s important to speak up when you see something wrong, but equally important is to speak up when you do something wrong. The only unforgivable sin at NASA is trying to cover something up.
Your title or position may influence how others in the organization speak up (or don’t). When someone speaks up, saying “thank you” in the moment sets the tone for future dialogue.
Reward speaking up with incentives. The Hubble Space Telescope servicing manager created challenges for people to speak up to reduce spacewalk time.

Resources Mentioned

Moonshot: A NASA Astronaut’s Guide to Achieving the Impossible by Mike Massimino

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Start Managing Up, with Tom Henschel (episode 433)
How to Speak Up, with Connson Locke (episode 546)
How to Help People Speak Truth to Power, with Megan Reitz (episode 597)

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Guy Kawasaki: Think Remarkable
Guy Kawasaki is the chief evangelist of Canva and the creator of Guy Kawasaki’s Remarkable People podcast. He is an executive fellow of the Haas School of Business (UC Berkeley), and adjunct professor at the University of New South Wales.

He was the chief evangelist of Apple and a trustee of the Wikimedia Foundation. He has written Wise Guy, The Art of the Start 2.0, The Art of Social Media, Enchantment, and eleven other books. He's now the author of Think Remarkable: 9 Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference.

We all want to be surrounded by remarkable people in our work. A key piece to building relationships with them is recognizing when they come across our radar screens. In this conversation, Guy and I explore some of the key indicators for recognizing remarkable people.
Key Points

Remarkable people reflect back to childhood. They recognize the experiences and people that contributed to their success.
Remarkable people don’t find their passions, they develop them. They know that it’s rarely love at first sight.
Remarkable people aren’t trying to save the world. They start with small and simple questions that scratch an itch.
Remarkable people make themselves indispensable. The the do work nobody else wants to do which separates them from the pack.
Remarkable people interact with a diverse group of people. They want to hear different perspectives and recognize the diversity makes them better.
Remarkable people have overcome hardships. They’ve challenged themselves to find paths forward through the toughest situations.

Resources Mentioned

Think Remarkable: 9 Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference* by Guy Kawasaki

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Lead and Retain High Performers, with Ruth Gotian (episode 567)
How to Strengthen Your Network, with Marissa King (episode 525)
Help Your Team Embrace Growth Mindset, with Eduardo Briceño (episode 644)

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Charles Duhigg: Supercommunicators
Charles Duhigg is a Pulitzer Prize–winning investigative journalist and the author of The Power of Habit and Smarter Faster Better. A graduate of Harvard Business School and Yale College, he is a winner of the National Academies of Sciences, National Journalism, and George Polk awards.

He writes for The New Yorker and other publications, and is host emeritus of the Slate podcast How To! He's the author of Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection*.

We all know that we can’t lead if we don’t connect. The best leaders not do this well, but they do it consistently with all kinds of people. In this conversation, Charles and I discuss what we can learn from the best communicators to get better ourselves.
Key Points

Neural entrainment is when we click with someone and can finish each other’s sentences (and even our biological responses align). Supercommunicators trigger this consistently across many kinds of relationships.
Supercommunicators aren’t always loudest or leading the conversation, but they ask more questions and adapt better in the moment.
Make emotional replies easier for others. Instead of, “Do you have any hobbies?” ask, “If you could learn anything, what would it be?”
Reciprocation of emotion is key for people to connect well. When another party is sharing something joyful, that’s an opportunity to share yourself.
When something is more contentious, loop for understanding by (1) asking a deeper question, (2) repeating back in your own words, and (3) asking if you got it right.

Resources Mentioned

Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection* by Charles Duhigg

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

Where You May Be Provoking Anxiety, with Erica Dhawan (episode 528)
The Way to Get People Talking, with Andrew Warner (episode 560)
How to Help Others Be Seen and Heard, with Scott Shigeoka (episode 654)

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William Ury: Possible
William Ury is one of the world’s best-known experts on negotiation, and the co-author of Getting to Yes, the all-time bestselling book on negotiation with more than 15 million copies sold. He is co-founder of Harvard’s Program on Negotiation and has served as a negotiator in many of the toughest disputes of our times. He has taught negotiation to tens of thousands, and consulted for dozens of Fortune 500 companies, the White House, the State Department, and the Pentagon.

William has served as a negotiation adviser and mediator in conflicts ranging from Kentucky wildcat coal mine strikes to wars in the Middle East, Colombia, Korea, and Ukraine. He is an internationally sought-after speaker and has two popular TEDx talks with millions of views. He's also the author of Possible: How We Survive (and Thrive) in an Age of Conflict*.

We often assume that conflict is bad, but William says we actually need more conflict, not less. In this conversation, we explore three practices that will help you thrive in the toughest negotiations. And no surprise — the biggest obstacle in getting what we want is almost always ourselves.
Key Points

We need more conflict, not less. The best decisions often emerge from a negotiation.
The biggest obstacle in negotiation is ourselves. Pauses and silence prevent us from reacting without thinking.
Zoom in to examine the interests that are behind your stated positions. This often elicits meaningful steps.
Rarely are conflicts about surface issues. Uncovering your deeper motivations will help you approach negotiation more productively.
Negotiation doesn’t only happen at one table. Zoom out to at least two other tables: the internal negotiations of both sides.

Resources Mentioned

Possible: How We Survive (and Thrive) in an Age of Conflict* by William Ury

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

Negotiate As If Your Life Depended On It, with Chris Voss (episode 262)
How to Find Confidence in Conflict, with Kwame Christian (episode 380)
How to Negotiate When Others Have Power, with Kwame Christian (episode 416)

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Scott Osman and Jacquelyn Lane: Becoming Coachable
Scott Osman is the founder and CEO of the 100 Coaches Agency and co-designer with Jacquelyn Lane of their proprietary curation process and the company’s relationship-first philosophy. In his role as CEO, he establishes the vision for the company, leads partnerships and business development, and serves as a leading light of the 100 Coaches Community, which he cofounded with Marshall Goldsmith in 2016.

Jacquelyn Lane is the president of the 100 Coaches Agency. She has been with the agency since its founding and is a critical pillar of the 100 Coaches Community. Jacquelyn comes to the world of executive coaching through her previous roles in the energy industry and lifelong commitment to improving the lives of all people by elevating the quality of leadership. Along with Scott and Marshall Goldsmith, she is co-author of Becoming Coachable: Unleashing the Power of Executive Coaching to Transform Your Leadership and Life*.

Perhaps you’ve been considering working with a coach, but how do you start? In this episode Scott, Jacquelyn, and I discuss when to consider coaching, how it might help, and the best way to begin. Plus, we explore the most helpful mindsets to help you get the most out of coaching.
Key Points

Leaders who create value at moments of inflection really need a coach.
Two common reasons leaders seek coaching: (1) getting support with an issue that’s tough to navigate and (2) accelerating their leadership growth.
Interview three coach candidates and utilize those interactions to discover different ways that you may reach your goals.
Coaching fees should reflect the value the organization receives from the coaching. Most high-end coaching is funded by the organization.
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. To speed up, a coach may invite you to slow down in the immediate short-term.

Resources Mentioned

Becoming Coachable: Unleashing the Power of Executive Coaching to Transform Your Leadership and Life* by Scott Osman and Jacquelyn Lane

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Win the Long Game When the Short-Term Seems Bleak, with Dorie Clark (episode 550)
How to Help People Engage in Growth, with Whitney Johnson (episode 576)
The Art of Mentoring Well, with Robert Lefkowitz (episode 599)

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Robert Sutton: The Friction Project
Robert Sutton is an organizational psychologist and professor of Management Science and Engineering in the Stanford Engineering School. He has given keynote speeches to more than 200 groups in 20 countries and served on numerous scholarly editorial boards. Bob's work has been featured in The New York Times, BusinessWeek, The Atlantic, Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal, Vanity Fair, and The Washington Post.

He is a frequent guest on various television and radio programs, and has written seven books and two edited volumes, including the bestsellers The No A-hole Rule, Good Boss, Bad Boss, and Scaling Up Excellence. He is the co-author with Huggy Rao of The Friction Project: How Smart Leaders Make the Right Things Easier and the Wrong Things Harder*.

We’ve all worked with someone who seemed just a bit oblivious. None of us want to be that kind of leader. In this conversation, Bob and I discuss key strategies for how to stop it and also prevent it.
Key Points

Privilege spares you hassles, but has a cost. You risk cluelessness about troubles in the organization.
Power and prestige can cause leaders to focus more on themselves, less on others, and act like the rules don’t apply to them.
An antidote to oblivious leadership is less transmission and more reception. Measure two behaviors: (1) how much the leader talks vs. others in interactions and (2) the ratio of questions the leader asks vs. statements the leader makes.
Either manage by walking out of the room or get into the details with ride alongs, direct help, and doing the work with folks. Be cautious about “managing by walking around” getting ritualistic.
Hierarchy is inevitable and useful. The most effective leaders flex it by knowing when to collaborate and when to direct.

Resources Mentioned

The Friction Project: How Smart Leaders Make the Right Things Easier and the Wrong Things Harder* by Robert Sutton and Huggy Rao

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

Use Power for Good and Not Evil, with Dacher Keltner (episode 254)
How to Ask Better Questions, with David Marquet (episode 454)
How to Help People Speak Truth to Power, with Megan Reitz (episode 597)
How to Prevent a Team From Repeating Mistakes, with Robert “Cujo” Teschner (episode 660)

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Todd Rogers: Writing for Busy Readers
Todd Rogers is a professor of public policy at Harvard University, where he has won teaching awards for the past seven consecutive years. He is a behavioral scientist and the cofounder of the Analyst Institute and EveryDay Labs. His opinion pieces have appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and Politico, among other outlets. He's co-author with Jessica Lasky-Fink of Writing for Busy Readers: Communicate More Effectively in the Real World*.

You probably only skimmed that email I spent an hour writing. And let’s be equally honest the other way — I only skimmed the document your team worked on most of last week. This is the reality of how we all read in a busy world. On this episode, Tom and I discuss how to write so that people actually read what you send.
Key Points

Virtually everyone is a writer in some significant way: emails, text messages, memos, social media posts, and many other daily communications.
While your writing is important to you, the audience is often trying to spend as little time as possible processing what you’ve sent. Virtually everyone skims, especially in the context of work.
Using fewer words make it more likely that people will engage with the message at all, much less taken action.
Addressing fewer ideas often helps people engage better. Studies show better results for calls to action when fewer ideas are presented in a single communication.
Asking busy readers for more can cause them to do less. Be mindful about the number of requests you are making in writing and eliminate those which aren’t essential.

Resources Mentioned

Writing for Busy Readers: Communicate More Effectively in the Real World* by Todd Rogers and Jessica Lasky-Fink
AI for Busy Readers (transform your writing in real-time using the science of Writing for Busy Readers)

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

The Surprising Truth About Influencing Others, with Daniel Pink (episode 84)
Improve Your Writing With Practical Typography, with Matthew Butterick (episode 145)
Make Your Reading More Meaningful, with Sönke Ahrens (episode 564)

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Randelle Lenoir
Randelle Lenior is a vice president at Fidelity Investments and a graduate of the Coaching for Leaders Academy. In this conversation, Randelle and I discuss how to utilize LinkedIn in order to showcase your team externally.
Key Points

Start small. Begin by posting about job opportunities or sharing articles and resources that will be useful for others.
Even though you are also representing your organization, the relationships you build are yours and stay with you throughout your career.
Establishing a larger “why” for a LinkedIn presence is important and invites others to want to join in to support the vision.
Ask permission and allow team members to easily opt out — and people who don’t engage initially may decide to later.
People are going to look you up anyway. By having a presence on LinkedIn, you set the narrative of what they perceive about you.

Related Episodes

How to Write a Killer LinkedIn Profile, with Brenda Bernstein (episode 285)
How to Get Noticed on LinkedIn, with Stephen Hart (episode 495)
The Way to Get Noticed by Key Stakeholders, with Daphne E. Jones (episode 614)

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Marcus Collins: For the Culture
Marcus Collins is an award-winning marketer and cultural translator. He is a recipient of Advertising Age’s 40 Under 40 award and Crain’s Business 40 Under 40 award and a recent inductee to the American Advertising Federation’s Hall of Achievement. He has worked for several top advertising agencies, and his strategies and creative contributions have led to the success of Budweiser’s Made in America music festival, the launch of the Brooklyn Nets (“Hello Brooklyn!”), and State Farm’s “Cliff Paul” campaign, among others. Prior to his advertising tenure, Marcus worked on iTunes + Nike sport music initiatives at Apple and ran digital strategy for Beyoncé.

He is a marketing professor at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, and faculty director for the school’s executive education partnership with Google. Marcus delivers keynote talks across the globe for companies and conferences such as the Cannes Lions International Festival for Creativity, SXSW, Social Media Week, Adcolor, Hyper Island, TEDx, and Talks at Google. He is the author of For the Culture: The Power Behind What We Buy, What We Do, and Who We Want to Be*.

Whether you’re in a sales and marketing role or not, every leader needs to appreciate the psychology of why people buy. Often we assume people buy because of what the product or service provides. But as Marcus and I discuss in this episode, people often buy because of who they are.
Key Points

For getting people to move, nothing is more powerful than aligning with culture.
Anaïs Nin said, “We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.”
Audiences buy because of what the product is, but congregations buy because of who they are.
Many leaders assume people love their brand -- but it's not really about the brand, it's about how people view themselves.
Begin with examining your own thinking and language regarding customer relationships and transactions. How you view these influences the actions of others.

Resources Mentioned

For the Culture: The Power Behind What We Buy, What We Do, and Who We Want to Be* by Marcus Collins

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

Start With Why, with Simon Sinek (episode 223)
Serve Others Through Marketing, with Seth Godin (episode 381)
The Way to Earn Attention, with Raja Rajamannar (episode 521)

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Amy Edmondson: Right Kind of Wrong
Amy Edmondson is the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at the Harvard Business School, where she studies people and organizations seeking to make a positive difference in the world through the work they do. She has pioneered the concept of psychological safety for over twenty years and is recognized as number one on the Thinkers50 global ranking of management thinkers. She also received that organization’s Breakthrough Idea Award in 2019 and Talent Award in 2017. In 2019 she was first on HR Magazine’s list of the 20 Most Influential International Thinkers in Human Resources.

Her prior book, The Fearless Organization, explains psychological safety and has been translated into fifteen languages. In addition to publishing several books and numerous articles in top academic outlets, Amy has written for, or her work has been covered by, media such as The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Financial Times, and many others. Her TED Talk on teaming has been viewed more than 3 million times. She is the author of Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well*.

Many leaders espouse the value of talking about our failures. Yet, failure is a threat to our ego, so it turns out we’re better at learning from the failures of others than we are from our own. In this conversation, Amy and I explore how to do a better job of growing when we’re in the wrong.
Key Points

Failure is a threat to our ego. As a result, we’re more likely to learn from the failures of others than from our own failures.
It’s hard to learn if you already know. If you can frame situations more helpfully, it can substantially influence your ability to grow from being wrong.
Disrupt the inevitable emotional response to being wrong by asking this: how was I feeling before this happened?
Challenge yourself by considering if the content of your thoughts are useful for your goal. A key question: what other interpretation of the situation is possible? Pro tip: start with the phrase, “Just for fun...”
Choose to say or do something that moves you closer to your goals. This question will help: what is going to best help me achieve my goals? Consider shifting from me to we and now to later.

Resources Mentioned

Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well* by Amy Edmondson

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404)
The Value of Being Uncomfortable, with Neil Pasricha (episode 448)
How to Quit Bad Stuff Faster, with Annie Duke (episode 607)

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Joan Garry: Guide to Nonprofit Leadership
Joan Garry is an internationally recognized champion for the nonprofit sector and a highly sought after executive coach for CEOs at some of the largest organizations. Joan’s firm offers high-end strategic advisory services with a unique combination of coaching and management consulting. She is the founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, a worldclass online educational membership organization for board and staff leaders of small nonprofits.

As a columnist for the Chronicle of Philanthropy, contributor to Harvard Business Review and to Forbes, Joan is a preeminent media spokesperson and thought leader on the role of the nonprofit sector in our society and is a sought after voice on issues facing the sector today. Joan was previously executive director of GLAAD, one of the largest gay rights organizations in the United States. She is the author of Joan Garry's Guide to Nonprofit Leadership: Because the World is Counting on You*.

When thinking about executives interacting with boards, the first thought I used to have was that an executive’s job is keep the board happy. In contrast, the most effective executives are intentional about creating a for framework for shared leadership. In this episode, Joan and I discuss key lessons from the non-profit world to help align better with your board.
Key Points

The relationship between an executive director and board chair in one of the most critical ones for an organization. Shared leadership provides more opportunity today than hierarchy.
Many “type A” people are in leadership roles. Getting clear on who decides what is critical because “type A” people don’t tend to operate well with ambiguity.
Focus on getting clarity and aligned on one thing at a time to avoid overwhelming the decision-making progress. Use a recent example as a catalyst to begin this process.
Executive directors should encourage boards to think and work at altitude so they get beyond only doing risk management.
It’s not enough to expect a board chair or member to want to “give back” — more important is to understand why they want to give back to this organization specifically.

Resources Mentioned

Joan Garry's Guide to Nonprofit Leadership: Because the World is Counting on You* by Joan Garry
Nonprofit Leadership Lab

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Involve Stakeholders in Decisions, with Eric Pliner (episode 586)
How to Start a Big Leadership Role, with Carol Kauffman (episode 617)
How to Start Better With Peers, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 635)

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David Hutchens: Leadership Story Deck
David Hutchens helps leaders find and tell their stories. He works with leaders around the world to find, craft, and tell their most urgent stories for the purpose of creating shared meaning, preserving culture, disseminating learning, and speeding change in organizations.

He has taught the Storytelling Leader program at some of the most influential organizations, including NASA, Paypal, Loreal Paris, Cisco, Walmart, Google, FedEx — and he’s written many books, including the Circle of the 9 Muses*, Story Dash*, and The Leadership Story Deck*. He is the co-creator with longtime friend of the show Susan Gerke of the GO Team program.

Many of us have heard that we should be vulnerable and, at least occasionally, share a story about ourselves. But how do you tell a story about yourself without making the entire interaction about you? In this episode, David and I explore how to best utilize a personal story to help the organization move forward.
Key Points

While leaders more often tell stories about others, a personal story can be very powerful for relationship building.
An effective, personal story is 2-3 minutes.
Telling a story about yourself needs to have a leadership point. Be clear on the “so what?” once the story concludes.
Even if you don’t quite capture all the emotion, say the word out loud that describes the emotion you want to convey.
Share your stories with others to get objective insight to tighten your message.

Resources Mentioned

Leadership Story Deck by David Hutchens (use code CFL24 for a limited-time discount)
To receive a free copy of the Story Canvas, David invites listeners to reach out to him directly via david@davidhutchens.com

Related Episodes

Ignite Change Through Storytelling, with Nancy Duarte and Patti Sanchez (episode 268)
How to Start Better With Peers, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 635)
What Vulnerable Leadership Sounds Like, with Jacob Morgan (episode 648)

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Robert “Cujo” Teschner: Debrief to Win
Robert “Cujo” Teschner is a retired F-15 / F-22 fighter pilot. He is also a former F-15 Weapons School Instructor, F-22 Squadron Commander, senior Joint Staff officer, and combat veteran. He holds advanced degrees in Operational Art and Science and National Security Strategy and has extensive experience in tactical planning and execution, and organizational leadership. From 2004 to 2006, he served as the US Air Force’s expert in post-mission debriefing, the methodology used by high-performing military teams to self-correct and improve continuously.

Cujo retired immediately after his promotion to full Colonel due to complications from cancer-related care and started an international business consulting practice based in St. Louis, MO. His company is called VMax Group. VMax Group’s mission is to teach, inspire, and nurture teams on how to really “team”, making work more fulfilling, and making teams much more effective. He is the author of Debrief to Win: How America's Top Guns Practice Accountable Leadership...and How You Can, Too!*

Many of us recognize we could get better at reflecting on our team’s work, but we rarely get beyond what went well and what didn’t. One of the best ways to stop making the same mistakes is to look at the truth of what’s already happened, and learn from it. In this conversation, Cujo and I look at the value of a debrief and how to bring that practice into your organization.
Key Points

Saying, “We learned a lot of important lessons today,” doesn’t actually prove that any learning has happened.
The context of military and civilian debriefs are both different, but the stakes are still high in both venues.
A debrief is not about blame or shame. Instead, it’s an affirming, positive experience that builds future leaders.
A key benefit of regular debriefs is to institutionalize the process of challenging conversations. Psychological safety is critical for this to happen well.
Objectives should measurable, achievable, and time-constrained. Debrief should focus on the objectives and the decisions that were made to meet those objectives.
Be cautious about outsourcing debriefing to external facilitators. An effective debrief should be led by someone who has participated in the mission or project.

Resources Mentioned

Debrief to Win: How America's Top Guns Practice Accountable Leadership...and How You Can, Too! by Robert “Cujo” Teschner
Robert “Cujo” Teschner’s website

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

Five Steps to Hold People Accountable, with Jonathan Raymond (episode 306)
How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404)
The Way to Make Better Decisions, with Annie Duke (episode 499)

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Jen Byyny
Jen Byyny is a senior director of product design in health-tech and a graduate of the Coaching for Leaders Academy. In this conversation, Jen and I discuss how to handle change in your career when things keep shifting around you.
Key Points

It’s about people, not product. When lots of change is happening, come back to relationships and communication.
Pay attention to the people who support you and the ones you look forward to working with. They will be your champions through whatever happens.
Provide space for grace during times of change. Others need it as much as you do.
It’s helpful to have people in your corner who are pulling for you but who are not tied to the politics or emotion of the situation.

Related Episodes

The Power of Weak Connections, with David Burkus (episode 347)
How to Win the Long Game When the Short-Term Seems Bleak, with Dorie Clark (episode 550)
How to Quit Bad Stuff Faster, with Annie Duke (episode 607)

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Frances Frei: Move Fast & Fix Things
Frances Frei is a professor at Harvard Business School. Her research investigates how leaders create the context for organizations and individuals to thrive by designing for excellence in strategy, operations, and culture. She regularly works with companies embarking on large-scale change and organizational transformation, including embracing diversity and inclusion as a lever for improved performance. In 2017, Frances served as Uber’s first senior vice president of leadership and strategy to help the company navigate its very public crisis in leadership and culture.

Her partner Anne Morriss and her are the authors of Uncommon Service and The Unapologetic Leader’s Guide to Empowering Everyone Around You. They are also hosts of Fixable, a leadership advice podcast from the TED Audio Collective, and they are recognized by Thinkers50 as among the world’s most influential business thinkers. Their newest book is Move Fast & Fix Things: The Trusted Leader's Guide to Solving Hard Problems*.

A lot of us assume that going fast is reckless. There are certainly times when that’s the case, but it’s also true that leaders going too slow at the wrong time can make things worse. In this conversation, Frances and I discuss how to do a better job of moving quickly when it’s time to address the toughest problems.
Key Points

Many of us believe that going fast is reckless and going slow is righteous. While there are times that is true, there are many examples where it’s not.
The fastest way to speed up your company is to empower more people to make more decisions.
Dare to be bad at something. Deciding what not to address allows you to go faster at what you’re best at.
Two key elements of completing work are work-in-progress and cycle time. Most leaders address cycle time first and miss the more substantial work-in-progress opportunities.
Create a way to fast-track projects that become important and build this into the culture of the organization.

Resources Mentioned

Move Fast & Fix Things: The Trusted Leader's Guide to Solving Hard Problems by Frances Frei and Anne Morriss

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

The Way to Turn Followers Into Leaders, with David Marquet (episode 241)
How to Solve the Toughest Problems, with Wendy Smith (episode 612)
How to Approach a Reorg, with Claire Hughes Johnson (episode 621)

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David Burkus: Best Team Ever!
David Burkus is the bestselling author of four books about business and leadership which have won multiple awards and been translated into dozens of languages. His insights on leadership and teamwork have been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, USAToday, Fast Company, the Financial Times, and many other media outlets.

Since 2017, David has been ranked multiple times as one of the world’s top business thought leaders. As a sought-after international speaker, his TED Talk has been viewed over two million times. He has worked with leaders from organizations across all industries, including PepsiCo, Fidelity, Clorox, Adobe, and NASA. He's the author of Best Team Ever!: The Surprising Science of High-Performing Teams*.

There are many things that help teams work well together, but perhaps you haven’t thought of this one: clarity. Knowing what is being done and who’s doing it often helps a team achieve more. In this conversation, David and I discuss the practical steps to surface more clarity and drive better performance.
Key Points

Casting a leadership vision is important, but insufficient. It’s not helpful to expect a team to figure out roles and responsibilities on their own.
Teams work best when they understand how each individual works best. Clarity increased performance.
Hold huddles using these three questions: (1) What did I just complete? (2) What am I focused on next? and (3) What is blocking my progress?
Consider communicating in bursts to allow for people to retreat into less interrupted time for deeper work.
Establish priorities and consistently make those priorities clear so they are obvious and apparent to the team.

Resources Mentioned

Best Team Ever!: The Surprising Science of High-Performing Teams* by David Burkus

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

An Astronaut’s Guide to Life On Earth, with Chris Hadfield (episode 149)
How to Make Deep Work Happen, with Cal Newport (episode 233)
How Great Teams Find Purpose, with David Burkus (episode 481)

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Heather Younger: The Art of Active Listening
Heather Younger is an experienced international keynote speaker, best-selling author, CEO, and Founder of Employee Fanatix. Known as The Employee Whisperer, Heather harnesses humor, warmth, and an instant relatability to engage and uplift audiences and inspire them into action.

She is a Certified Diversity Professional, certified in Emotional and Social Intelligence and DiSC, and is also the author of three books. Her previous best-selling book, The Art of Caring Leadership: How Leading with Heart Uplifts Teams and Organizations, was praised for offering powerful insights for developing authentic, thoughtful, and purposeful leaders and change-makers. She's the author of The Art of Active Listening: How People at Work Feel Heard, Valued, and Understood*.

When you know how to listen, people will share more. We may or may not always be able to resolve every concern, but we can be sure others are heard. In this conversation, Heather and I discuss how we can shift from listening for what we want to hear towards listening for what we need to learn.
Key Points

Some issues can only be resolved through better listening. That alone makes this a critical skill for leaders.
When you know how to listen, people will bring things to you. Listen for not what you want to hear but what you want to learn.
Listening is not just about what’s been said, but also about what is seen. Get beyond simply, “What I hear you saying is…”
Some leaders have a fear about the direction that a response might take a conversation. Remember that often people first and foremost want to be heard, regardless of what happens next.
Nobody is ready to listen at every moment. Taking time to center yourself for a conversation in a few minutes or later in the day can be helpful for both parties.

Resources Mentioned

The Art of Active Listening: How People at Work Feel Heard, Valued, and Understood* by Heather Younger
Art of Active Listening Certification

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

The Way to Have Conversations That Matter, with Celeste Headlee (episode 344)
Four Habits That Derail Listening, with Oscar Trimboli (episode 500)
How to Help Others Be Seen and Heard, with Scott Shigeoka (episode 654)

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Sheila Heen: Difficult Conversations
Sheila Heen is the Thaddeus R. Beal Professor of Practice at Harvard Law School, a Deputy Director of the Harvard Negotiation Project, and a founder of Triad Consulting Group. She often works with executive teams to engage conflict productively, repair working relationships, and implement change in complex organizations.

She has published articles in The New York Times and the Harvard Business Review and appeared on Oprah, CNBC’s Power Lunch, and NPR. She is coauthor along with Douglas Stone of The New York Times bestseller Thanks for the Feedback and also now, in its third edition, co-author with Douglas Stone and Bruce Patton of the iconic bestseller, Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most*.

When our intentions are good, it’s hard to appreciate how we could have had such negative impact on someone else. It’s equally challenging to navigate a tough conversation when someone else’s words or actions have wronged us, even if that’s not what they intended. In this conversation, Sheila and I discuss how to shift just a bit to help our difficult conversations go better.
Key Points

Intent does not equal impact.
It’s a mistake to assume that we know the other party's intentions.
It’s a mistake to assume that good intentions erase bad impact.
Prevent the first mistake by attempting to separate intent from impact. Use these three questions:


Actions: What did the other person actually say or do?
Impact: What was the impact of this on me?
Assumption: Based on this impact, what assumption am I making about what the other person intended?


To present the second mistake, listen first for feelings before sharing intent. It’s helpful also to reflect on your own intent, which may not always be as pure as initially recognized.

Resources Mentioned

Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most* by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Sheila Heen

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Get Way Better at Accepting Feedback, with Sheila Heen (episode 143)
How to Begin Difficult Conversations About Race, with Kwame Christian (episode 594)
How to Deal With Passive-Aggressive People, Amy Gallo (episode 595)

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Scott Shigeoka: Seek
Scott Shigeoka is an internationally recognized curiosity expert, speaker, and author. He is known for translating research into strategies that promote positive well-being and connected relationships around the globe, including at the UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Center and through his popular courses at the University of Texas at Austin.

Scott implements his curiosity practices with leaders in the public sector, Fortune 500 companies, Hollywood, media organizations, education institutions, and small businesses. He is the author of Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World*.

Often we think about curiosity as a way to get information. And yes, it does do that, but there’s a much bigger opportunity that many leaders miss — taking the next step with curiosity to actually help connect better with others. In this episode, Scott and I highlight four phrases that will help you do that better.
Key Points

It’s a mistake to limit the purpose of curiosity to only information gathering. Deep curiosity can be one of the best ways to create connection.
Saying, “I don’t know,” may elicit fear in a lot of us, but leaders who can do this are often perceived and more competent in their work.
The invitation to, “Tell me more,” is a way to respond to a bid from someone for attention that opens to door to feeling seen and heard.
Even if you don’t literally say the words, “I understand that you're more than your job,” making that clear in your conversations helps limit work-life conflict and uncovers better ways to support others.
We tend to have a bias in the workplace for the people who traditionally have the “answers.” Asking, “Who else?” opens the door to surfacing the best ideas, regardless of who they originate with.

Resources Mentioned

Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World* by Scott Shigeoka
4 Phrases That Build a Culture of Curiosity by Scott Shigeoka

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Be Present, with Dave Crenshaw (episode 511)
How to Inspire More Curiosity, with Shannon Minifie (episode 520)
How to Genuinely Show Up for Others, with Marshall Goldsmith (episode 590)

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Adam Bryant: The Leap to Leader
Adam Bryant is Senior Managing Director and Partner at the ExCo Group, where he works with hundreds of senior leaders and high-potential executives. As the creator and former author of the iconic “Corner Office” column in The New York Times, Adam has mastered the art of distilling real-world lessons from his hundreds of interviews and turning them into practical tools, presentations, and exercises to help companies deepen their leadership benches and strengthen their teams.

Adam works with executive leadership teams to help drive their transformation strategies, based on a best-practices framework he developed for his widely praised book, The CEO Test. He's also the author of The Leap to Leader: How Ambitious Managers Make the Jump to Leadership*.

Many of us have our career trajectories planned out in our minds. While we know it’s not going to happen exactly the way we’ve planned, it’s still jarring when we find ourselves on a different path — or presented with a different opportunity — than we anticipated. In this episode, Adam and I discuss the mindsets and actions that will help you take the next step in your career.
Key Points

There can be a large gap between how assertive you are and how people perceive you.
Think about your career like a pyramid — building a strong foundation across many areas of practice. Bloom where you are planted.
Don’t just solve the problem your manager tells you to solve. Find (and start solving) the bigger problem that isn’t even on the radar screen of senior leadership.
Use these words: “I need your help.” When seeking advice in the context of someone that might mentor you, make your ask specific and then loop back to share what you did with their advice.
When someone asks how you are, instead of just saying “fine,” tell a story about what you’re working on.
Peer relationships are a common blind spot. Early promotions may come from your manager, but higher level promotions comes moreso from the relationships with your peers.

Resources Mentioned

The Leap to Leader: How Ambitious Managers Make the Jump to Leadership* by Adam Bryant

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Nail a Job Transition, with Sukhinder Singh Cassidy (episode 555)
How to Start a Big Leadership Role, with Carol Kauffman (episode 617)
How to Start Better With Peers, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 635)

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Bonni Stachowiak: Teaching in Higher Ed
Bonni is the host of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Dean of Teaching and Learning and Professor of Business and Management at Vanguard University, and my life partner. Prior to her academic career, she was a human resources consultant and executive officer for a publicly traded company. Bonni is the author of The Productive Online and Offline Professor: A Practical Guide*.
Listener Questions

Tony asked our opinion on his plan to have the team provide feedback to each other directly.
Lean wondered about alternatives to the nine box talent mapping framework that some organizations use.
Qasim noted that leadership can sometimes feel thankless and asked if we had any rituals to help minimize this.

Resources Mentioned

FeedForward: Coaching for Behavioral Change by Marshall Goldsmith
What Is the 9-Box Model? by Brian Anderson
Warning: This Is Not Your Grandfather’s Talent Planning featuring Kim Scott

Related Episodes

How to Get Way Better at Accepting Feedback, with Sheila Heen (episode 143)
How to Process Your 360 Feedback, with Tom Henschel (episode 341)
Your Leadership Motive, with Patrick Lencioni (episode 505)

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Kirstin Ferguson: Head & Heart
Kirstin Ferguson is a company director, columnist, keynote speaker, and executive coach. Beginning her career as an officer in the Royal Australian Air Force, Kirstin has held roles that have included chief executive officer of an international consulting firm, and acting chair and deputy chair of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. She has sat on boards of both publicly-listed and privately-listed companies for more than a decade.

Kirstin has a PhD in leadership and in 2021 was named one of Thinkers50’s top thinkers to watch. In 2023, she was appointed a Member of the Order of Australia for her significant service to business and gender equality. She writes a weekly column on leadership and work in the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, and is also a contributor to the Australian Financial Review and to Forbes. She is the author of Head & Heart: The Art of Modern Leadership*.

It’s often apparent when someone else doesn’t a read a room, but much harder to see it in ourselves. In this conversation, Kirstin and I discuss how we can do a better job of either literally or figuratively reading the room. Plus, we explore several of the actions leaders can take to do a better job at being more proactive at moving beyond their own perspective.
Key Points

Memory is different than perception. A study by Adrian de Groot shows that chess grandmasters reply more on the former for reading things quickly.
Perception is an ongoing process vs. something any of us arrive at.
A study of medical residents shows four ways we tend to approach situations: stalled, fixated, adaptive, or vagabonds. Vagabonds in particular look at a wide range of possibilities, but don’t fully explore or rule out paths forward.
Zoom out to seek broad input. That’s especially important when the stakes are high. Also important is to get perspective outside of your industry. Reading books from different disciplines is one starting point.
Leaders needs to also recognize that people in the room are reading you as well. There’s an element of partnership that shapes how the room moves forward.

Resources Mentioned

Head & Heart: The Art of Modern Leadership by Kirstin Ferguson
Head & Heart Leader Scale by Kirstin Ferguson

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Start Seeing Around Corners, with Rita McGrath (episode 430)
Leadership in the Midst of Chaos, with Jim Mattis (episode 440)
The Way to Get Noticed by Key Stakeholders, with Daphne E. Jones (episode 614)

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Emily Field: Power to the Middle
Emily Field is a partner at McKinsey & Company. She works with leaders to shape data-driven organizational strategies designed to achieve business objectives, establish talent management as a distinctive advantage, and secure the human resources function as a driver of business value.

Emily has worked with companies across industries, leading initiatives to transform the way organizations work. She puts particular emphasis on helping to establish a talent-first approach, instilling a high-performance culture, and adopting effective people-analytics approaches. She is the co-author along with Bill Schaninger and Bryan Hancock of Power to the Middle: Why Managers Hold the Keys to the Future of Work*.

As anybody who’s worked in middle management can attest, it’s one of the hardest jobs you’ll ever have. Too often we take middle management for granted, but organizations that learn how to better support middle managers can leverage their power and expertise to do a lot of good. In this conversation, Emily and I highlight the challenges of middle management, the unique value the middle managers bring to organizations, and the steps senior leaders can take to better support middle managers.
Key Points

Middle managers often have less power and control than the people who report to them. This results in them not feeling like they are set up for success.
The “player-coach” model of managers doing individual contributor work can be useful, but it’s critical for organizations to be mindful that the work is uniquely suited for a manager to do.
Rather than promoting the best middle managers out of their roles, promote from within. Reward top middle managers who decide to make their positions a destination, not just a waypoint.
As technology and AI changed the nature of work, middle managers are uniquely qualified to know how to best rebundle jobs and redistribute talent.
A key question for senior leadership to answer: What do we want middle managers to be doing?

Resources Mentioned

Power to the Middle: Why Managers Hold the Keys to the Future of Work* by Emily Field, Bill Schaninger, and Bryan Hancock

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Multiply Your Impact, with Liz Wiseman (episode 554)
How Top Leaders Influence Great Teamwork, with Scott Keller (episode 585)
The Questions to Help Figure Out Hybrid and Remote Work, with Jim Harter (episode 646)

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David Rogers: The Digital Transformation Roadmap
David Rogers is the world’s leading expert on digital transformation, a member of the faculty at Columbia Business School, and the author of five books. His previous landmark bestseller, The Digital Transformation Playbook, was the first book on digital transformation and put the topic on the map.

David has helped companies around the world transform their business for the digital age, working with senior leaders at many of the largest corporations and he's been featured in The New York Times, The Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Economist. In his newest book, The Digital Transformation Roadmap*, David tackles the barriers behind the 70% of businesses that fail in their own digital efforts and offers a five-step roadmap to rebuild any organization for continuous digital change.

Most of us have heard that leading change requires highlighting a problem, deciding on a clear vision, and then cascading that vision down. In this conversation, David and I discuss how those actions alone often result failed outcomes. Instead, we highlight what a shared vision really is and how we can do a better job of helping the entire organization respond better to change.
Key Points

Most digital transformations fail because they focus too much on technology and not enough on the actual organizational challenges.
Selling a problem is negative urgency. It’s important as a component of change, but insufficient alone. Successful change leaders also embrace positive urgency.
A north star helps leaders and their organizations get clear on the “why” instead of simply the “what.” Once defined, thoughtful debate on measurement brings alignment and empowerment.
It’s a mistake for vision to only come from the top. Vision should exist at every level.
Avoid thinking about vision as cascading down. If anything, vision should be cascade up. How conversation happens at each juncture will define how well this works — or doesn’t.

Resources Mentioned

The Digital Transformation Roadmap* by David Rogers
The Digital Transformation Playbook* by David Rogers
David Rogers on Digital newsletter

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

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Jacob Morgan: Leading With Vulnerability
Jacob Morgan is a trained futurist and one of the world’s leading authorities on leadership, the future of work, and employee experience. He speaks in front of tens of thousands of people each year and his content is seen over a million times annually. He is the best-selling author of five books: The Future Leader, The Employee Experience Advantage, The Future of Work, and The Collaborative Organization. He speaks at over 50 conferences a year including TED Academy which is one of the largest TED events in the world.

Jacob provides advisory and thought leadership services to organizations around the world. He has created tons of educational videos and articles found at Great Leadership With Jacob Morgan and host of the Great Leadership with Jacob Morgan podcast. He’s the author of the new book, Leading With Vulnerability: How to Unlock Your Greatest Superpower to Transform Yourself, Your Team, and Your Organization.

Most of us have heard that we should show vulnerability, but we don’t necessary know how to do this in the workplace. In addition, many leaders mistakenly show vulnerability without connecting it back to leadership. In this episode, Jacob and I explore where leaders go wrong, discuss how to do better, and demonstrate exactly what real vulnerability sounds like.
Key Points

Vulnerability + Leadership = Vulnerable Leadership. While this equation may seem obvious, many leaders mistakingly lean into vulnerability without also articulating leadership.
Vulnerability without leadership can land awkwardly and potentially calls to question your credibility as a leader.
Go beyond just admitting a mistake; share what was learned from that mistake. In the same way, talk about personal challenges for the purpose of connecting, creating trust, and relating to others.
Ask yourself this question as a starting point for ensuring you are also leading: “What’s my reason for sharing what I’m about to share?”
Vulnerability for leaders is not the same as it is for everybody else.

Resources Mentioned

Leading With Vulnerability: How to Unlock Your Greatest Superpower to Transform Yourself, Your Team, and Your Organization by Jacob Morgan
Great Leadership With Jacob Morgan

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

Use Power for Good and Not Evil, with Dacher Keltner (episode 254)
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The Four Storytelling Mistakes Leaders Make, with David Hutchens (episode 553)

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Bonni Stachowiak: Teaching in Higher Ed
Bonni is the host of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Dean of Teaching and Learning and Professor of Business and Management at Vanguard University, and my life partner. Prior to her academic career, she was a human resources consultant and executive officer for a publicly traded company. Bonni is the author of The Productive Online and Offline Professor: A Practical Guide*.
Listener Questions

Lisa asks about the best ways to hold others accountable when you don’t have positional authority.
John wonders about our perspective on dealing with narcissists in the workplace.
Patrick is curious how we might (or might not) mediate a conflict between two employees.
Priya notices the focus on underperforms in organizations and asks how this tendency might get shifted a bit.

Resources Mentioned

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People* by Stephen R. Covey
The Success Factor* by Ruth Gotian
The 6 Types of Working Genius* by Patrick Lencioni

Related Episodes

How to Handle a Boss Who’s a Jerk, with Tom Henschel (episode 164)
How to Influence Many Stakeholders, with Andy Kaufman (episode 240)
How to Benefit From Conflict, with Susan Gerke (episode 263)
How to Lead Meetings That Get Results, with Mamie Kanfer Stewart (episode 358)
How to Lead and Retain High Performers, with Ruth Gotian (episode 567)
How to Help Team Members Find the Right Work, with Patrick Lencioni (episode 610)
How to Start Better With Peers, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 635)

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Jim Harter: Culture Shock
Jim Harter is Chief Scientist for the Workplace at Gallup. He has led more than 1,000 studies of workplace effectiveness, including the largest ongoing meta-analysis of human potential and business unit performance. He's the bestselling author of 12: The Elements of Great Managing, Wellbeing: The Five Essential Elements, Wellbeing at Work and the #1 Wall Street Journal bestseller It’s the Manager.

Jim has also published articles in many prominent business and academic journals. He's also the author now of Gallup's book with Jim Clifton titled Culture Shock: An unstoppable force is changing how we work and live. Gallup’s solution to the biggest leadership issue of our time*.

Virtually every professional team is navigating some aspect of return to office and how that works best for their organization. In this conversation, Jim and I highlight the key findings from Gallup that have emerged in the data since the pandemic started. Plus, we explore the questions that managers can ask in order help this transition work better for everyone.
Key Points
Managers should consider these key questions to help employees and teams move towards smart autonomy:

Which parts of your job can you do best at home?
Which parts of your job can you do best at the office?
When have you created exceptional value for our customers?
When do you feel most connected to our organization’s culture?

In addition:

Less than 5% of people in the United States worked from home in 2019. Today the number is six times larger and nearly seven in 10 full-time employees in the United States prefer some type of remote work arrangement.
Number of days in the office is important, but matters less than other factors. Most associated with high levels of employee engagement is the practice of a work team deciding together (the option companies used the least).
Splitters and blenders represent two different ways of approaching work and the populate tends to divide equally on this preference (even across generations). Knowing where people land will help engage them better in the workplace.
Managers account for 70% of the variance in team engagement. A key habit for a manager is one meaningful conversation per week with each employee.
Less important is the time of interaction and more important it the quality. Smaller amounts of time discussion recognition, goals, and strengths can be more impactful than more time that doesn’t do this.

Resources Mentioned

Culture Shock: An unstoppable force is changing how we work and live. Gallup’s solution to the biggest leadership issue of our time* by Jim Clifton and Jim Harter

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

Gallup Findings on the Changing Nature of Work, with Jim Harter (episode 409)
How to Engage Remote Teams, with Tsedal Neeley (episode 537)
Effective Hybrid Team Management, with Hassan Osman (episode 570)

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Jacqueline Farrington: The Non-Obvious Guide to Better Presentations
Jacqueline Farrington has over 20 years experience as a change maker, empowering leaders and their teams to spark transformation and innovation through communications. Known for her direct, yet supportive and science-backed approach, Jacqueline works with senior and board-level leaders as the founder and president of Farrington Partners. She blends her experience in the performing arts, vocal pedagogy, communications, psychology, and organizational and executive coaching to help her clients find unique communication solutions.

Her clients include multinationals such as Amazon and Microsoft, as well as startups and nonprofits. She proudly served for many years as TEDxSeattle’s Senior Speaker Coach, where she sourced, vetted, and prepared speakers for yearly sold-out audiences. She was thrilled to see several speakers from that event move on to the global TED stage. In addition to teaching at Yale, she has lectured and taught at the London Business School, Rutgers University, and Imperial College. Jacqueline in the author of The Non-Obvious Guide to Better Presentations: How to Present Like a Pro (Virtually or in Person)*.

We all know we should practice before a big presentation, but how you practice makes a big difference on whether you just feel more prepared…or actually are. In this episode, Jacqueline and I explore how to rehearse so you perform better.
Key Points

A presentation is a performance. Just like any performance, how you rehearse is critical for your success.
Great presenters look relaxed and natural and unrehearsed because they have practiced over and over again.
Internalizing your talk is like driving home. You know the route so well, you can take any turn you want and still arrive at the same house.
Use a memory palace to recall point during your presentation. This also provides and easy path to adjust timing and content when changes inevitably come.
Create controlled stress for yourself during rehearsals. This surfaces where to get better and also helps you respond more effectively when actual stresses come up when presenting.
Review your work objectively to decide how to improve your message. It’s helpful to think about watching a recording of someone else so that you can better surface what to change.

Resources Mentioned

The Non-Obvious Guide to Better Presentations: How to Present Like a Pro (Virtually or in Person)* by Jacqueline Farrington

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

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3 Better Ways to Start a Presentation (Dave’s Journal)

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Eduardo Briceño: The Performance Paradox
Eduardo Briceño is a global keynote speaker and facilitator who guides many of the world’s leading companies in developing cultures of learning and high performance. Earlier in his career, he was the co-founder and CEO of Mindset Works, the first company to offer growth mindset development services. Previously, he was a venture capital investor with the Sprout Group.

His TED Talk, How to Get Better at the Things You Care About, and his prior TEDx Talk, The Power of Belief, have been viewed more than nine million times. He is a Pahara-Aspen Fellow, a member of the Aspen Institute’s Global Leadership Network, and an inductee in the Happiness Hall of Fame. He is the author of The Performance Paradox: Turning the Power of Mindset Into Action*.

Many of us have heard the invitation in recent years to have a growth mindset — but how do you establish this for an entire team? In this episode, Eduardo and I explore his research on systemizing the learning zone to help teams perform at the highest levels. Plus, we explore tactical shifts that managers can make in order to align intention with reality.
Key Points

In order for teams to performance at top levels, they need to spend intentional time in both the performance zone and the learning zone.
Internal competition can hold back teams from learning — and can over focusing on the present instead of the future.
Systemizing the learning zone helps build a culture where this is expected and normal. Setting expectations for feedback, role plays, and study groups are a few of the many ways organizations can do this.
Eliminate forced ranking systems, as they often over-perpetuate a culture of performance only vs. performance and learning together.
Include learning goals in professional development, not only performance goals. This normalizes and systemizes the learning zone as a critical part of work.

Resources Mentioned

The Performance Paradox: Turning the Power of Mindset Into Action by Eduardo Briceño
How to Get Better at the Things You Care About by Eduardo Briceño (TEDx talk)

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

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Mark Bowden: Winning Body Language
Mark Bowden is a world-renowned body language expert, keynote speaker, and bestselling author. Voted three times by Global Gurus’ as the #1 Body Language Professional in the world, Mark’s unique GesturePlane™ system of nonverbal communication helps audiences maximize the power of using their own body language to stand out, win trust, and gain credibility every time they communicate.

As the founder of communication training company TRUTHPLANE®, Mark’s live and virtual keynote speeches and training prove invaluable to business leaders and teams from influential companies including Zoom, Shopify, Toyota, KPMG, American Express, the US Army and NATO; and prime ministers of G7 nations. His bestselling books on body language and human behavior are: Winning Body Language*, Winning Body Language for Sales Professionals*, Tame the Primitive Brain*, and Truth & Lies, What People are Really Thinking*. His highly acclaimed TEDx talk The Importance of Being In-Authentic continues to reach millions of people, as does his own YouTube Channel.

Most professionals are on video more these days than they ever thought they would be. As a result, making the best first impression on camera is more essential to our work than ever before. In this conversation, Mark and I explore several of the key principles that will help us start better in virtual interactions.
Key Points

We make judgment calls very quickly depending on how someone shows up visually.
It's your duty to influence and persuade — and we all do this in some way already to change outcomes.
While we’re used to viewing content on screen (television, movies, YouTube) we aren’t used to interacting and collaborating on screen.
Use video in short, consistent ways. Tools like Loom can help us do on camera what we already know works well in person: regular interaction.
Your smile can set the tone for an interaction and it’s important to use a visual aid to remind you of this if you’re staring at black boxes on screen.
Bring your gestures into the camera frame. Gestures that match the cadence and rhythm can help connect your audience with your message.

Resources Mentioned

Winning Body Language* by Mark Bowden
Truth and Lies*: What People Are Really Thinking by Mark Bowden and Tracey Thomson
The Importance Of Being Inauthentic by Mark Bowden (TEDx talk)
Best Tips for Virtual Presentations by Mark Bowden (YouTube)
Mark Bowden on LinkedIn

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Moving Towards Meetings of Significance, with Seth Godin (episode 632)

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Mauro Guillén: The Perennials
Mauro Guillén is Professor of Management and Vice Dean at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. An expert on global market trends, he is a sought-after speaker and consultant. He combines his training as a sociologist at Yale and as a business economist in his native Spain to identify and quantify the most promising opportunities at the intersection of demographic, economic, and technological developments.

His online classes on Coursera and edX have attracted over 100,000 participants from around the world. He has won multiple teaching awards at Wharton, where his presentation on global market trends has become a permanent feature of over fifty executive education programs annually. His book on 2030: How Today’s Biggest Trends Will Collide and Reshape the Future of Everything was an instant Wall Street Journal bestseller and he's now the author of The Perennials: The Megatrends Creating a Postgenerational Society*.

Many of us grew up in a world where life was divided into three stages: school, work, and retirement. Traditional ways of thinking about credentialing and ways to transition in the workforce are also changing. In this conversation, Mauro and I explore what has changed and how we can shift our thinking and actions to stay relevant in a new world of work.
Key Points

The sequential model of life is no longer as relevant as it was a generation ago. Life span, health span, and technology are massively affecting how we think about generations.
It’s no longer a correct assumption that entry level positions are going to be only filled people in their twenties coming out of school.
Intergenerational learning is an opportunity that many institutions and organizations still miss. Embracing this will increasingly help us stay relevant.
Traditional credentials will still hold value, but it will be assessed in the context people's ability in learning how to learn.
Intergenerational differences are real, they do not necessarily result in different values, attitudes, and behaviors in the workplace. There is lots of heterogeneity that our stereotypes conceal.

Resources Mentioned

The Perennials: The Megatrends Creating a Postgenerational Society* by Mauro Guillén

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Lead a 100-Year Life, with Lynda Gratton (episode 266)
Essentials of Adult Development, with Mindy Danna (episode 273)
How to Help People Engage in Growth, with Whitney Johnson (episode 576)

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Renée Mauborgne: Beyond Disruption
Renée Mauborgne is the INSEAD Distinguished Fellow and a professor of strategy at the global business school INSEAD. She is the co-author of the 4 million copy global bestseller Blue Ocean Strategy, which is recognized as one of the most iconic and impactful strategy books ever written, and is also co-author of the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and Los Angeles Times bestseller Blue Ocean Shift.

To date, the Blue Ocean Strategy and Blue Ocean Shift teaching materials have been adopted by over 2,800 universities across the globe. In 2022, Harvard Business Review selected Blue Ocean Strategy as one of the most influential and innovative articles published in HBR over the last 100 years. Along with her colleague W. Chan Kim, she was named the most influential management thinker in the world by Thinkers50. She is the first woman ever to secure that top spot. She is the co-author with W. Chan Kim of Beyond Disruption: Innovate and Achieve Growth without Displacing Industries, Companies, or Jobs*.
Key Points

Zero-sum thinking means that if we win, someone else must lose. Many of us have been conditioned to accept that this is how competition has to work.
Nondisruptive creation creates new industries without leaving failed companies, lost jobs, and destroyed markets in its wake.
Consider shifting focus from structure to agency. Firms that generate nondisruptive creation lead with agency.
Don’t confuse the means with the ends. Technology enables, but value innovation is ultimately what creates a nondisruptive new market.
Unlock the many, not just the few. Overemphasizing an entrepreneur or creative leader underemphasizes the contributions of everyone else.

Resources Mentioned

Beyond Disruption: Innovate and Achieve Growth without Displacing Industries, Companies, or Jobs* by W. Chan Kim and Renée Mauborgne
Blue Ocean Strategy: How to Create Uncontested Market Space and Make the Competition Irrelevant* by W. Chan Kim and Renée Mauborgne

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
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Tom Burbage: F-35
Tom Burbage retired from the Lockheed Martin Corporation in 2013. He was the President of the Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Systems Company and the Executive VP/GM for both the USAF F-22 Raptor and the multi-service, allied next generation fighter, the F-35. Prior to joining Lockheed, Tom was a Naval Aviator, completing the U.S. Navy Test Pilot School in 1975. He has accumulated more than 3,000 hours in 38 different types of military aircraft. As a reservist he retired as a Navy Captain in 1994.

Tom has received numerous industry awards, including the U.S. Naval Academy/Harvard Business Review Award for Ethical Leadership; the Aerospace Industry Personality of the Year; the Society of Automotive Engineers Leadership in Aerospace Award; and many others. He is also a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society in the United Kingdom. He is co-author along with Betsy Clark and Adrian Pitman of the book F-35: The Inside Story of the Lightning II.

Sometimes we find ourselves leading a very large team that isn’t used to working together. That happened to Tom who was the general manager of the F-35 fighter jet. In this conversation, we explore how to bring together many stakeholders in order to do something bigger than any one of them could do alone.
Key Points

Solicit and listen to feedback on what didn’t work in past situations.
Establish behavior norms and expectations and continue coming back to them. When disagreements happen, resolve them in the context of these norms.
Consider including customers in major meetings, so struggles are shared transparently with all stakeholders.
Behavior norms and expectations were established globally and referenced in most formal interactions. When flare ups happened, they were often settled quickly in the spirit of the norms.
A “one team” concept was used to unify people from formerly competing organizations to align them to the nobler motive.

Resources Mentioned

F-35: The Inside Story of the Lightning II* by Tom Burbage, Betsy Clark, and Adrian Pitman

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Create Team Guidelines, with Susan Gerke (episode 192)
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Danna Greenberg: Maternal Optimism
Danna Greenberg is the Walter H. Carpenter Professor of Organizational Behavior at Babson College. Her main area of research focuses on understanding the intersection between individuals' work and non-work lives as they move through their career. Her scholarship is guided by the belief that individuals can and should be able to live full lives at work and at home and that by challenging current assumptions regarding work we can find better ways for businesses, families, and communities to thrive.

Her other research stream centers on the scholarship of teaching and learning. Here she is focused on the continued changing landscape of higher education as it pertains to how we teach, what we teach, and how to define the lives of academics. Danna has published more than 30 articles and book chapters in leading journals including Academy of Management Journal, Human Resource Management, and Academy of Management Learning and Education. She is the co-author with Jamie Ladge of Maternal Optimism: Forging Positive Paths Through Work and Motherhood*.

When women return to work after a baby, there’s a lot our society implies about how that’s supposed to look. Danna’s research finds that this can look very different for every family. On this episode, a few things that women, their partners, and their managers can do to support a better transition in returning to work.
Key Points

Over 70% of mothers in the United States return to work after having children.
There tends to be a “guilt and anguish” script in the popular media about women returning to work after a maternity leave. That’s absolutely true for some women (especially those with fewer resources) but other women have very different experiences.
Managers can help by opening dialogue about what’s ideal to support a woman and her family during and after maternity leave.
Comments like “I am so impressed by how you are going to do it all!” are often well-intended but can reinforce views that might not be true for a woman or her family. Focus praise at work on work, not parenting.
Men may be more likely to listen to the challenges working mother face when other men surface them. Male managers can take the lead on this.
During leave, mothers can help create a foundation of shared parenting (if that’s their choice) by engaging their partners in substantial ways in childcare and limit gatekeeping.

Resources Mentioned

Maternal Optimism: Forging Positive Paths Through Work and Motherhood* by Jamie Ladge and Danna Greenberg

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Reduce Drama With Kids, with Tina Payne Bryson (episode 310)
Finding Joy Through Intentional Choices, with Bonni Stachowiak (episode 417)
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Bonni Stachowiak: Teaching in Higher Ed
Bonni is the host of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Dean of Teaching and Learning and Professor of Business and Management at Vanguard University, and my life partner. Prior to her academic career, she was a human resources consultant and executive officer for a publicly traded company. Bonni is the author of The Productive Online and Offline Professor: A Practical Guide*.
Listener Questions

Jose asked about how to balance professional and personal responsibilities and get it all done.
Jordan mentioned getting passed up for a promotion twice and wondering what suggestions we have on the feedback they have received.
Ahmad asked us about resources for supporting high performances and team members who are struggling.
Jenna shared a distinction between tuition reimbursement and tuition assistance that Dave expanded on.

Resources Mentioned

Getting Things Done* by David Allen
Leadership Story Deck* by David Hutchens
Start With Why* by Simon Sinek
Hope for the Flowers* by Trina Paulus
The Empowered Manager* by Peter Block
Kim Scott’s distinction on Superstars vs. Rock Stars
CliftonStrengths by Gallup

Related Episodes

How to Get Way Better at Accepting Feedback, with Sheila Heen (episode 143)
Getting Things Done, with David Allen (episode 184)
Five Steps to Hold People Accountable, with Jonathan Raymond (episode 306)
The Way to Stop Spinning Your Wheels on Planning (episode 319)
Finding Joy Through Intentional Choices, with Bonni Stachowiak (episode 417)
The Way to Make Sense to Others, with Tom Henschel (episode 518)
The Four Storytelling Mistakes Leaders Make, with David Hutchens (episode 553)
How to Lead and Retain High Performers, with Ruth Gotian (episode 567)

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Vanessa Patrick: The Power of Saying No
Vanessa Patrick is the Associate Dean for Research, Executive Director of Doctoral Programs, a Bauer Professor of Marketing and lead faculty of the Executive Women in Leadership Program at the Bauer School of Business at the University of Houston. She has been recognized with a number of awards for both scholarship and teaching and was named one of the top 50 most productive marketing scholars worldwide by the DocSig of the American Marketing Association.

Vanessa was appointed as a Fulbright Specialist (2019-24) by the U.S. Department of State, Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. She is a prominent scholar in her field and serves on editorial and policy boards of leading academic journals. She is currently an Associate Editor for the Journal of Marketing Research and the Journal of Marketing and she's the author of The Power of Saying No: The New Science of How to Say No That Puts You in Charge of Your Life*.

Most leaders know that it’s important to say no to requests that aren’t the right use of time and resources. But how do you navigate this when the other party is likely to respond in a difficult way? In this conversation, Vanessa and I explore the patterns of difficult askers and how we can do a better job of responding when we’re interacting with them.
Key Points

We all have both marigolds and walnut trees in our lives. Marigold protect and strengthen us - walnut trees crowd out our time and interfere.
Difficult askers often confront us with face-to-face requests, use their home court advantage, and insist on an immediate response.
Pushback is normal and expected. It’s helpful to view it as a hurdle to overcome vs. something to avoid. Either way, we will spend the energy.
Resentment is a helpful indicator that difficult askers are taking too much power. Establish personal polices that provide guidelines so you can proactively come back to values when considering requests.
It’s helpful to consider advance requests in the context of fulfilling the commitment immediately, otherwise we’ll continue to feel the pressure of resentment and

Resources Mentioned

The Power of Saying No: The New Science of How to Say No That Puts You in Charge of Your Life* by Vanessa Patrick

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Say No Without Saying No, with Lois Frankel (episode 471)
How to Speak Up, with Connson Locke (episode 546)
How to Help People Speak Truth to Power, with Megan Reitz (episode 597)

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Liz Anderson: The PreSales Path
Liz Anderson has extensive experience as a solutions engineering leader and is the founder of the PreSales Path. She's also an alum of the Coaching for Leaders Academy.

In this SaturdayCast, Liz and I discuss the inflection points she’s experienced in the past year, how intentional focus on her vision and identity helped move her forward, and the value of consistency through it all.
Key Points

Professional development is about finding the starting points and then adapting as you go.
Once you decide on a new identity and direction, the indicators start to emerge on where to go next.
When your heart and intention are in the right place, the tactical path is still not easy, but it is clearer.

Resources Mentioned

Liz Anderson

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How to Get Traction With a New Habit (audio course)

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Michael Bungay Stanier: How to Work with (Almost) Anyone
Michael Bungay Stanier is the author of eight books, including The Coaching Habit, which has sold more than a million copies and is the best-selling book on coaching this century. Most recently he wrote How to Begin, and back in 2011 he created and edited End Malaria, a book written in partnership with Seth Godin that raised more than $400k for Malaria No More.

Michael is the founder Box of Crayons, a learning and development company that’s trained thousands of people around the world to be more coach-like. He has been featured in many publications including Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Fast Company. His TEDx Talk on Taming Your Advice Monster has been viewed more than a million times. Michael's newest book is How to Work with (Almost) Anyone: Building the Best Possible Relationship*.

Most leaders recognize the critical nature of healthy, peer relationships. Yet, few leaders lay an intentional foundation for success as those relationships start. In this episode, Michael and I discuss how to start with peers using the five questions in a Keystone Conversation.
Key Points

Nobody really like to say hello but everyone likes to be greeted. Make a decision to be the person that begins.
Preparing thoughtful responses to the five questions in a Keystone Conversation will help you come to a dialogue in an authentic and vulnerable way.
The responses themselves aren’t as critical as the process itself. By entering into a keystone conversation, you are laying the foundation for future dialogue and the best possible relationship.

The five questions of a Keystone Conversation:

The Amplify Question: What’s your best?
The Steady Question: What are your practices and preferences?
The Good Date Question: What can you learn from successful past relationships?
The Bad Date Question: What can you learn from frustrating past relationships?
The Repair Question: How will you fix it when things go wrong?

Resources Mentioned

Preorder Michael’s book at bestpossiblerelationship.com
Bonus audio: Michael’s process for writing this book (12 minutes)

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Deal with Opponents and Adversaries, with Peter Block (episode 328)
How to Involve Stakeholders in Decisions, with Eric Pliner (episode 586)
How to Start a Big Leadership Role, with Carol Kauffman (episode 617)

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Susan Cain: Bittersweet
Susan Cain is the author of Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, which spent seven years on The New York Times bestseller list and has been translated into 40 languages. It was named the #1 best book of the year by Fast Company, which also named Susan one of its Most Creative People in Business. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Wall Street Journal, and many other publications. Her record-smashing TED Talk has been viewed over 30 million times and was named by Bill Gates one of his all-time favorite talks.

Susan has also spoken at Microsoft, Google, the U.S. Treasury, the S.E.C., Harvard, Yale, West Point, and the US Naval Academy. She received Harvard Law School’s Celebration Award for Thought Leadership, the Toastmasters International Golden Gavel Award for Communication and Leadership, and was named one of the world’s top 50 Leadership and Management Experts by Inc. She is now also the author of the bestselling book Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole*.

We’ve all heard the value of positive thinking and aiming for happiness, but we don’t often think about the value of sorrow — and rarely in the context of leadership. In this conversation, Susan returns to the podcast to explore how the full spectrum of who we are can help us live — and lead - just a bit better.
Key Points

We espouse the value of happiness and positive thinking but don’t often recognize the value of appreciating sorrow and pain.
Words like “pain” and “suffering” tend to not show up in our workplaces, even when that’s clearly what’s being experienced. Instead, these realities are often substituted with words like “anger” or “frustration.”
Yes we should focus on our strengths, but beware of confusing a bittersweet temperament or sadness, with weakness.
Having power or feeling superior may prevent us from seeing others sadness — or even our own. Leaders who can embrace humility often find that results follow too.
The physical act of bowing can help with humility, as does capturing in writing moments of compassion (either from others or for others), as well as a focus on self-compassion.

Resources Mentioned

Preorder Bittersweet for a free book plate from Susan
Empathy: The Human Connection to Patient Care by The Cleveland Clinic
The Kindred Letters by Susan Cain

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, with Susan Cain (episode 44)
Use Power for Good and Not Evil, with Dacher Keltner (episode 254)
Four Steps to Get Unstuck and Embrace Change, with Susan David (episode 297)

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Tiffani Bova: The Experience Mindset
Tiffani Bova is the global customer growth and innovation evangelist at Salesforce, and The Wall Street Journal bestselling author of Growth IQ. Over the past two decades, she has led large revenue-producing divisions at businesses ranging from start-ups to the Fortune 500.

As a Research Fellow at Gartner, her cutting-edge insights helped Microsoft, Cisco, Salesforce, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Oracle, and many other prominent companies expand their market share and grow their revenues. She has been named one of the Top 50 business thinkers in the world by Thinkers50 twice and she's the host of the podcast What’s Next! with Tiffani Bova. She is the author of The Experience Mindset: Changing the Way You Think About Growth*.

While many organizations espouse that employees are their greatest asset, most senior leaders prioritize customer needs above all else. Data clearly shows that balancing great employee experience along with a quality customer experience drives better results. In this conversation, Tiffani and I discuss the mindset and initial steps that leaders can take to improve the experience for both employees and customers.
Key Points

In recent decades, we’ve been in the mindset of customer-first. Today, the biggest threat to organizations is worker unhappiness.
While almost every organization espouses the importance of employees, few executive leaders can identify who “owns” the employee experience in their organization. In contrast, almost every organization has a clearly defined customer experience owner.
Proper investments in technology are often an obstacle to an ideal employee experience. Getting better at this means that senior leaders in human resources, information technology, and customer experience must work together to help impact line up with intention.
Three starting points for better employee experience are: reviewing data for customer experience and compare it to the trends for employee experience, utilizing employee advisory boards for a voice in emerging strategy, and reviewing employee survey results to determine what findings have been addressed.
Getting better at balancing customer experience and employee experience means moving away from an expert’s mindset and towards a beginner’s mindset.

Resources Mentioned

The Experience Mindset: Changing the Way You Think About Growth* by Tiffani Bova

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Discover What People Want, with Tiziana Casciaro (episode 565)
Gallup’s Insights on Addressing Unhappiness, with Jon Clifton (episode 601)
How to Solve the Toughest Problems, with Wendy Smith (episode 612)

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Seth Godin: The Song of Significance
Seth Godin is the author of 21 international bestsellers that have changed the way people think about work. His books have been translated into 38 languages. Seth writes one of the most popular marketing blogs in the world, and two of his TED talks are among the most popular of all time.

He is the founder of the altMBA, the social media pioneer Squidoo, and Yoyodyne, one of the first internet companies. His blog is at seths.blog and his newest book is The Song of Significance: A New Manifesto for Teams*.

Seth says that the foundation of all real skills is the confidence and permission to talk to each another. No place is that more apparent than in our meetings. On this episode, Seth returns to help us move towards meetings of significance.
Key Points

The song of significance is about work that matters, being part of something bigger than each one of us, and doing things we’re proud of.
Many organizations and leaders hold meetings, but they are often reports and lectures. Meetings of significance are conversations.
Despite knowing the critical important of conversations, we tend to resist them in our roles. Our work is to begin those conversations.
Start with agreement on what a meeting is how we do work that matters through it. The problem is rarely with Zoom. The problem is how you show up to facilitate the meeting.
Create the culture you need to serve people well by setting the tone for it. You have more power than you think.

Resources Mentioned

The Song of Significance: A New Manifesto for Teams* by Seth Godin

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

Five Steps to Hold People Accountable, with Jonathan Raymond (episode 306)
The Way to Have Conversations That Matter, with Celeste Headlee (episode 344)
How to Lead Meetings That Get Results, with Mamie Kanfer Stewart (episode 358)
How to Use Power Responsibly, with Vanessa Bohns (episode 551)

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Gladys McGarey: The Well-Lived Life
Gladys McGarey is 102 years old and a still-practicing doctor. Recognized as a pioneer of the allopathic and holistic medical movements, she is also a founding diplomat of the American Board of Holistic Medicine. She is the cofounder and past president of the American Holistic Medical Association, as well as the cofounder of the Academy of Parapsychology and Medicine and the founder of The International Academy of Clinical Hypnosis.

Gladys lives and works in Scottsdale, Arizona, where for many years she shared a medical practice with her daughter. She currently has a medical consulting practice, maintains a healthy diet, and enjoys a good piece of cake every now and then. She has spoken at TEDx and is the author of The Well-Lived Life: A 102-Year Old Doctor's Six Secrets to Health and Happiness at Any Age*.

Our efforts in leadership development, personal growth, or getting better at anything, are all about starting. In this conversation, Gladys and I discuss the critical nature of movement in our lives and work. We also explore how to identify where to start and why it’s more about beginning that finishing.
Key Points

All life needs to move. If we're not moving, we can't function.
Stuckness is an illusion. If we know what to look for, movement is all around us and within us.
A flashlight in the dark can only see a few steps ahead — but that’s enough to move in the right direction and begin seeing more.
Look for the trickle around the dam. Noticing where movement already is will often be the starting point to go further.
Doctors don’t heal patients, only patients can heal themselves. Pay attention to beginning instead of finishing.

Resources Mentioned

The Well-Lived Life: A 102-Year Old Doctor's Six Secrets to Health and Happiness at Any Age* by Gladys McGarey

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Tame Your Inner Critic, with Tara Mohr (episode 232)
Leadership Means You Go First, with Keith Ferrazzi (episode 488)
How to Make Progress When Starting Something New, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 562)

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Jeremy Utley: Ideaflow
Jeremy Utley is the Director of Executive Education at the Stanford d.school, and an Adjunct Professor at Stanford’s School of Engineering, where he has earned multiple favorite professor distinctions from graduate programs. He co-teaches two celebrated courses, Leading Disruptive Innovation (d.leadership) and LaunchPad, which focus on creating real-world impact with the tools of design & innovation.

He is also on the teaching teams of d.org, an organizational design course, and Transformative Design, a course that turns the tools of design onto graduate students’ lives. One of the most prodigious collaborators at the d.school, Jeremy has taught alongside the likes of Lecrae, Dan Ariely, Laszlo Bock, and Greg McKeown. He is the author along with Perry Klebahn of Ideaflow: The Only Business Metric That Matters.

Brainstorming sessions often emerge to address a problem requiring new ideas or innovation. However, the way many of us approach brainstorming vastly limits what’s possible for our teams and organizations. In this conversation, Jeremy and I discuss where leaders go wrong and some of the most helpful mindsets and tactics to do better.
Key Points

We tend to like cognitive closure. That often stops us from moving forward more substantially during brainstorming.
The Idea Ratio shows that 2000 ideas are needed for every one idea that goes to market. Most teams and organizations vastly underestimate this.
Set the expectation that brainstorming is a process, not a single event. That will help you surface vastly more useful ideas.
Gather initial suggestions before a session to avoid favoring extroverts and early anchoring on what’s said initially. A useful way to make this is ask the language, “How might we…?”
Warm-up exercises can substantially help put team members in the right mindset for creativity, especially for those with busy schedules moving between contexts.

Resources Mentioned

Ideaflow: The Only Business Metric That Matters by Jeremy Utley and Perry Klebahn
Jeremy Utley's website

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Be Present, with Dan O’Connor (episode 399)
The Way to Nurture New Ideas, with Safi Bahcall (episode 418)
How to Build an Invincible Company, with Alex Osterwalder (episode 470)

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Donald Miller: How to Grow Your Small Business
Donald Miller is The New York Times bestselling author of Building a StoryBrand and Business Made Simple. He has helped thousands of businesses grow with his powerful framework. In 2010, Don started the business he’d always dreamed of. Although his business was doing ok, he quickly realized it wasn’t what he thought it would be. Everything depended on him, and he was drowning in the mundane day-to-day.

For years, his business struggled to produce dependable, predictable results. Over years of fits and false starts, Don grew his business from nothing to nearly $20 million. In the end, he realized there were six key parts of a business, and if they were managed well, the business would fly far and fast. He’s captured those lessons in his book How to Grow Your Small Business: A 6-Step Plan to Help Your Business Take Off*.

A huge percentage of businesses fail before they have any significant success. One key trigger is failure to market the business effectively. In this conversation Donald and I discuss how to power the marketing engine of your business by using the key elements of the StoryBrand framework.
Key Points

Most small businesses think more about how their marketing will look rather than what their marketing will say.
People are attracted to what helps them survive and thrive…and it helps to communicate those message simply.
People buy products and services to solve problems, not because they care that much about the business.
The customer is the hero. Never play the hero; always play the guide.
People who are insecure talk about themselves. People who are confident talk about others. Talk about yourself only in the context of how it helps the customer.

Resources Mentioned

How to Grow Your Small Business: A 6-Step Plan to Help Your Business Take Off* by Donald Miller

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

Serve Others Through Marketing, with Seth Godin (episode 381)
How Leaders Build, with Guy Raz (episode 491)
How to Quit Bad Stuff Faster, with Annie Duke (episode 607)

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Brian Feroldi: Financial Statements Explained Simply
Brian Feroldi is a financial educator, YouTuber, and author. He has been intensely interested in money, personal finance, and investing ever since he graduated from college. His mission statement is to spread financial wellness. He loves to help other people do better with their money, especially their investments.

Brian has written more than 3,000 articles on stocks, investing, and personal finance for The Motley Fool. In 2022, Brian’s book Why Does The Stock Market Go Up? was published. The mission of the book is to demystify the stock market. It was written to explain how the market works in plain English. He's also the co-creator of the course, Financial Statements Explained Simply.

Most of us are not accountants, but whether you work in a small business, a large corporation, a non-profit, or a government agency, the numbers define what resources that we have. Being able to understand and speak the language of financial statements is essential for leaders who want to influence decisions. In this episode, Brian and I review how to understand and read one of the most important reports for any organization: the income statement.
Key Points

A few hours of focus on the fundamentals of financial statement can provide you understanding and influence throughout your career.
An income statement (also called a profit and loss statement or P&L) shows revenue, expenses, and profit over a period of time. It’s similar to your personal budget.
Revenue minus cost of goods sold is gross profit.
Subtracting operation expenses from gross profit give you an organization’s operating income or EBIT (earnings before income and taxes).
Depreciation spreads out the cost of tangible assets (equipment, vehicles, buildings) their useful lives. Amortization does the same thing for intangible assets (loans, copyrights, patents).
The “bottom line” is literally the bottom line at the end, either net income or net loss.

Resources Mentioned

Brian Feroldi’s newsletter
Financial Statements Explained Simply (course)

Related Episodes

Improve Your Financial Intelligence, with Joe Knight (episode 244)
How to Approach Corporate Budgeting, with Jody Wodrich (episode 355)
Dumb Things Smart People Do With Money, with Jill Schlesinger (episode 396)

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Kwame Christian: American Negotiation Institute
Kwame Christian is a best-selling author, business lawyer, and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Following the viral success of his TED talk, Kwame released his best-seller Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life back in 2018. He’s also a regular Contributor for Forbes and the host of the number one negotiation podcast in the world, Negotiate Anything, which currently has over 5 million downloads worldwide.

Under his leadership, the American Negotiation Institute has coached and trained several Fortune 500 companies on applying the fundamentals of negotiation to corporate success. He's also the author of the book How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race and the creator of Negotiable, an Online Community to Learn to Negotiate Anything.

We often think about questions as a way to discover more — but have you also considered how your questions might influence? Kwame Christian and I discuss three key steps in order to persuade better through your intentional questions.
Key Points

Rapport questions help you make a connection with the other party and establish a baseline for how they communicate.
A helpful place to begin on rapport is noticing something that you genuinely admire or are curious about in the other party.
When gaining information, start broadly and then pull the thread when the other party leads you down a path. Beware that your role/positions can cause people to say more than they otherwise might.
“What would it take?” is often a helpful way to illuminate a path forward.
Even if you ultimately are more directive, laying the foundation through questions allows the other party to be heard and understand.

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

These Coaching Questions Get Results, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 237)
How to Ask Better Questions, with David Marquet (episode 454)
The Way Out of Major Conflict, with Amanda Ripley (episode 529)

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Henry Cloud: Trust
Henry Cloud is an acclaimed leadership expert, clinical psychologist and a New York Times bestselling author. His 45 books, including the iconic Boundaries, have sold nearly 20 million copies worldwide. He has an extensive executive coaching background and experience as a leadership consultant, devoting the majority of his time working with CEOs, leadership teams, and executives to improve performance, leadership skills, and culture.

Henry's work has been featured and reviewed by The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, Publisher’s Weekly, Los Angeles Times, and many other publications. Success Magazine named him in the top 25 most influential leaders in personal growth and development, alongside Oprah, Brené Brown, Seth Godin and others. He is a frequent contributor to CNN, Fox News Channel, and other national media outlets. Henry is the author of Trust: Knowing When to Give It, When to Withhold It, How to Earn It, and How to Fix It When It Gets Broken*.

When someone betrays your trust, what do you do next? In this conversation, Henry and I explore the five factors of trust and the importance of each one of them in our relationships. Then, we look at the starting point for rebuilding trust after a betrayal, beginning with you and your own support network.
Key Points

Five factors are key for trust: understanding, motive, ability, character, and track record.
Repairing trust is not clean or orderly. The first step is about you, not the person who betrayed you.
Leaders who have a support network already in place are better able to take a pause and work through emotion and anger.
An authentic apology from someone should articulate the event itself, demonstrate their empathy for how the event felt to you, and appreciate the consequences of their actions.
Forgiving someone does not mean you trust them.

Resources Mentioned

Trust: Knowing When to Give It, When to Withhold It, How to Earn It, and How to Fix It When It Gets Broken* by Henry Cloud

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

The Art of Constructing Apologies, with Sandra Sucher (episode 535)
The Path Towards Trusting Relationships, with Edgar Schein and Peter Schein (episode 539)
How to Approach a Reorg, with Claire Hughes Johnson (episode 621)

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Morra Aarons-Mele: The Anxious Achiever
Morra Aarons-Mele is the host of The Anxious Achiever, a top-10 management podcast that helps people rethink the relationship between their mental health and their leadership. Morra founded Women Online and The Mission List, an award-winning digital-consulting firm and influencer marketing company dedicated to social change, in 2010 and sold her business in 2021.

She helped Hillary Clinton log on for her first internet chat and has launched digital campaigns for President Obama, Malala Yousafzai, the United Nations, the CDC, and many other leading figures and organizations. She is the author of The Anxious Achiever: Turn Your Biggest Fears into Your Leadership Superpower*.

In this conversation, Morra and I discuss some key tactics that help leaders release just a bit of control. Since control is often driven by fear, we can let go of some control by making small shifts in our practices, awareness, and planning. We also explore how to set boundaries that will help us lead in ways that are more helpful to others — and ourselves.
Key Points

Control is often caused by fear. Optimism can be a bit of an antidote to it.
Adopt a practice mindset by making small shifts to endure uncomfortable things.
Practice open awareness throughs surrender; the opposite of controlling and micromanaging.
Get clear on scheduling, deadlines, longer term career goals. Those provide a healthy illusion of control.
Create a distinction between having an emotion and being the emotion.
Begin setting boundaries by noticing when you are moving from comfort to discomfort.

Resources Mentioned

The Anxious Achiever: Turn Your Biggest Fears into Your Leadership Superpower* by Morra Aarons-Mele
The Anxious Achiever podcast

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

Four Steps to Get Unstuck and Embrace Change, with Susan David (episode 297)
Effective Delegation of Authority, with Hassan Osman (episode 413)
Align Your Calendar to What Matters, with Nir Eyal (episode 431)

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Jill Schlesinger: The Great Money Reset
Jill Schlesinger is an Emmy Award winning Business Analyst for CBS News. She appears on CBS radio and television stations nationwide covering the economy, markets, investing and anything else with a dollar sign. Jill is the host of the Jill on Money podcast and of the nationally syndicated radio show, Jill on Money, which won the 2018 and 2021 Gracie Award for Best National Talk Show.

Jill is a frequent speaker on a variety of topics, including macroeconomic, market and demographic trends; workplace issues for women and LGBT employees in financial services; and how to create authentic branding. She is the author of The Dumb Things Smart People Do With Their Money and her most recent book, The Great Money Reset: Change Your Work, Change Your Wealth, Change Your Life*.

In this conversation, Jill and I examine the decision-making process that many of us use when considering advanced degrees or certifications. We discuss some of the common missteps that people make in educational investments and identity three key steps that can help us do better. Plus, we encourage leaders to get clear on their goals and outcomes and alternative ways to fund major educational investments.
Key Points

Every situation is different. Examining your situation is more helpful than relying on an assumption that all educational investments are wise.
Identify the precise skills, knowledge, or credential you hope to gain by going back to school and how your career with benefit.
Remember that the cost of tuition does not always reflect the full cost such as lost salary or time out of the workforce.
Explore cheaper options if they still archive your overall objectives. A cheaper degree from a less prestigious university may meet 95% of the outcomes you want.
Consider how your employer may support your educational investments. Some companies will consider sponsoring some of your educational expenses if you make a formal request.

Resources Mentioned

The Great Money Reset: Change Your Work, Change Your Wealth, Change Your Life* by Jill Schlesinger

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

Four Rules to Get Control of Your Money, with Jesse Mecham (episode 356)
Dumb Things Smart People Do With Money, with Jill Schlesinger (episode 396)
The Way Into Better Conversations About Wealth, with Kristin Keffeler (episode 606)
Seven Steps to Landing Professional Development Funding (MemberCast)

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Jonathan Raymond: Good Authority
Jonathan spent 20 years building careers in business development and personal growth before realizing he could have the best of both worlds by starting his own company. Now, he uses those skills to advise CEOs and organizational leaders on how to create a people-first culture that drives results.

As the founder of Refound, his goal is to provide clients with a partner they can trust and programs that gives managers an experience of how they can make work a better place, one conversation at a time. He’s the author of the book Good Authority: How to Become the Leader Your Team Is Waiting For*. He's also the creator of the Accountability Dial, used daily by many of our members and listeners to open up more healthy dialogue inside of their teams and organizations.

It may seem like you’ve had the same conversation about 17 times, but again you have an employee asking you, “Wait? Is this thing we’re talking about supposed to be part of my job?” You again clarify their role, but you’re also thinking in the back of your mind, “Really? We’re having this conversation again?” In this episode, Jonathan and I discuss four questions to ask of yourself — and your employee — to align them with the role.
Key Points

Mangers often complain that employees do not have clarity on their roles.
Separate the role from the person. Depersonalizing the role actually helps you to have a better alignment conversation.
What do you want employees to be owning, thinking about, and worrying about? Those are windows into the Soul of the Role.
There are three steps to role alignment: defining the role, aligning the role with the employee, and sustaining the dialogue about the role.

Four questions that will help you define a role:

What is the purpose of this role?
What makes someone successful in this role?
What are three priorities for this role in the next 90 days?
Where are their decision-making rights?

Resources Mentioned

Refound Academy: Good Authority, Good Alignment, and Good Accountability courses
Good Authority: How to Become the Leader Your Team Is Waiting For* by Jonathan Raymond

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

Effective Delegation of Authority, with Hassan Osman (episode 413)
How to Balance Care and Accountability When Leading Remotely, with Jonathan Raymond (episode 464)
How to Lead and Retain High Performers, with Ruth Gotian (episode 567)

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Bonni Stachowiak: Teaching in Higher Ed
Bonni is the host of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Dean of Teaching and Learning and Professor of Business and Management at Vanguard University, and my life partner. Prior to her academic career, she was a human resources consultant and executive officer for a publicly traded company. Bonni is the author of The Productive Online and Offline Professor: A Practical Guide.
Listener Questions

Susan asked about assessing the difference between an employee who has addressable gaps in their skills and knowledge versus when they are in over their head.
Elizabeth asked our advice on managing a team member who appears over-confident in their abilities…and how to hold them accountable.
Steve wondered how we handle household tasks between the two of us in the midst of our busy schedules.

Resources Mentioned

Analyzing Performance Problems* by Robert Mager and Peter Pipe
The Alignment Problem by Brian Christian
Wonder Tools by Jeremy Kaplan
The Home Edit by Clea Shearer and Joanna Teplin

Related Episodes

The Way to Stop Rescuing People From Their Problems, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 284)
How to Challenge Directly and Care Personally, with Kim Scott (episode 302)
Five Steps to Hold People Accountable, with Jonathan Raymond (episode 306)
Finding Joy Through Intentional Choices, with Bonni Stachowiak (episode 417)

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Claire Hughes Johnson: Scaling People
Claire Hughes Johnson is a corporate officer and advisor for Stripe, a global technology company that builds economic infrastructure for the internet. She previously served as Stripe’s Chief Operating Officer, helping the company grow from fewer than 200 employees to more than 8,000.

Prior to Stripe, Claire spent 10 years at Google leading various business teams, including overseeing aspects of Gmail, Google Apps, and consumer operations. She is a board member at Hallmark Cards, The Atlantic, Ameresco, and HubSpot. Claire also serves as a trustee and the current board president of Milton Academy. She is the author of Scaling People: Tactics for Management and Company Building*.

You are charged with leading a reorg, but do you know the mindset, actions, and steps to take? In this conversation, Claire and I explore some of the key lessons she’s discovered as an executive leader in a quickly growing enterprise. We discuss the key triggers for a reorg, the three phases of reorganization, and common pitfalls leaders should avoid.
Key Points

Reorganizations or restructurings and often seen as a sign of a problem, but that's not always the case.
Why reorganize? Two triggers: (1) your team structure doesn't match your strategy and/or (2) you have a talent issue.
While there are times to go slower, the bias should be to move with haste. Don't leave ice cream on the counter for too long.
Be very cautious about creating structure around a single individual.

Three phases of a reorg:

Phase 0: Decide whether you need a reorg and determine your new structure.
Phase 1: Get buy-in from the key people who need to be involved.
Phase 2: Create a communications plan and inform all of those affected.

Resources Mentioned

Scaling People: Tactics for Management and Company Building* by Claire Hughes Johnson
Transitions* by William Bridges

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Manage Former Peers, with Tom Henschel (episode 257)
Three Steps to Great Career Conversations, with Russ Laraway (episode 370)
How to Solve the Toughest Problems, with Wendy Smith (episode 612)

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Sally Helgesen: Rising Together
Sally Helgesen has been cited by Forbes as the world’s premier expert on women’s leadership. She is a best-selling author, speaker and leadership coach. She has been named by Thinkers50 as one of the world’s top 20 coaches and ranked number 6 among the world’s thought leaders by Global Gurus. She is the author of several books, including The Female Advantage: Women’s Ways of Leadership and The Female Vision: Women’s Real Power at Work.

Her book The Web of Inclusion: A New Architecture for Building Great Organizations, was cited in The Wall Street Journal as one of the best books on leadership of all time and is credited with bringing the language of inclusion into business. She co-authored How Women Rise, with executive coach Marshall Goldsmith, examining the behaviors most likely to get in the way of successful women. Her newest book is Rising Together: How We Can Bridge Divides and Create a More Inclusive Workplace*.

When we get triggered, our default response tends to be either venting about it to others or suffering in silence. In this conversation, Sally and I explore how to respond in a more useful way. She invites us to consider being less invested in our initial response, creating an alternative script, and finding a path forward to influence different behavior.
Key Points

When we get triggered, our tendency is to either vent about it or suffer in silence.
Being overly invested in our first response limits our ability to respond better. This is the authenticity trap.
Create an alternative, positive script that helps your own mental well-being and precipitates a more helpful action.
Whether the alternative script is true or not isn’t the point. The aim is to find the line between not humiliating the other party and also not letting a poor behavior be unaddressed.
Wisdom from Sun Tzu: indirection or redirection to disarm an opponent is preferable to the direct engagement of combat.

Resources Mentioned

Rising Together: How We Can Bridge Divides and Create a More Inclusive Workplace by Sally Helgesen

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

The Way Out of Major Conflict, with Amanda Ripley (episode 529)
End Imposter Syndrome in Your Organization, with Jodi-Ann Burey (episode 556)
How to Create Inclusive Hiring Practices, with Ruchika Tulshyan (episode 589)
How to Respond Better When Challenged, with Dolly Chugh (episode 615)

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Kathy Fiddler: TidalHealth
Kathy Fiddler is the Vice President of Population Health for TidalHealth, a non-profit two hospital health care system on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. She has been instrumental in building community programs supporting improved access to healthcare services on the lower shore.

Kathy is a registered nurse and a retired Major in the United States Air Force Reserve. She served for 26 years in the US and abroad and supported Operation Restore Hope, Operation Desert Storm, and Operation Enduring Freedom. She is also a lifetime member of the Reserve Officers Association and a board member for the United Way of the Lower Eastern Shore. In 2019, she was recognized as one of the Top 100 Women in Maryland. She's also an alum of the Coaching for Leaders Academy.

In this conversation, Kathy and I discuss her career growth over time from mostly clinical and operational work to leading at the executive level. We explore how being intentional about surrounding oneself with a diverse set of voices helps to both build confidence and surface better outcomes. Finally, we look at how working through discomfort in service of others can help us to make the world better through our work.
Key Points

The work of a leader is very different than the operational and technical work most of us did earlier in our careers.
Having a smaller meeting before a larger meeting can help a more introverted leader engage in the way they want.
We sometimes sell ourselves short by concluding we won’t add value. By leaning into that discomfort, we find it’s often the case that others struggle with similar fears.
Shifting from having the right answers to asking the right questions will help a leader to uncover what may have been unsaid that’s critical.
Finding communities of other leaders helps you to find the diversity of perspective to support you building your own confidence.

Related Episodes

Create Margin Through Intentional Leadership, with Amy McPherson (episode 429)
Personal Leadership is a Journey, with Michal Holliday (episode 436)
Lead Best by Being You, with Elena Kornoff (episode 474)

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Adi Ignatius: Harvard Business Review
Adi Ignatius is Editor in Chief of the Harvard Business Review Group, where he oversees the editorial activities of Harvard Business Review, hbr.org, and HBR’s book-publishing unit. Prior to joining Harvard Business Review in 2009, he was the No. 2 editor at TIME. He is the editor of two books: President Obama: The Path to the White House and Prisoner of the State: The Secret Diaries of Premier Zhao Ziyang. Both made The New York Times Bestseller List.

Adi lived and worked for nearly 20 years overseas. He was Editor of Time’s Asian edition and earlier served as Beijing Bureau Chief and Moscow Bureau Chief for The Wall Street Journal. He is also host of the HBR Channel. It is the 100th anniversary of Harvard Business Review.

Should leaders and organizations take a stand on current events, politics, or causes? Adi and I discuss this tough question in detail. While the answer will be different for every leader, we invite you to begin thinking about how you might approach this in your work.
Key Points

The traditional advice of “Don’t talk about politics and religion” is still the norm in some places, but increasingly leaders and being more vocal.
Silence used to be the default. Silence now many send a message that leaders and organizations don't intend to convey.
While every leader needs to decide how they will navigate this, beware your feelings of certainty.

Resources Mentioned

Harvard Business Review

Related Episodes

Start With Why, with Simon Sinek (episode 223)
Handling a Difficult Stakeholder, with Nick Timiraos (episode 581)
How to Begin Difficult Conversations About Race, with Kwame Christian (episode 594)

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Carol Kauffman: Real-Time Leadership
Carol Kauffman is an international leader in the field of coaching and has more than 40,000 hours of practice. Her clients are C-level leaders and their teams or elite athletes and creatives. She was shortlisted by Thinkers 50 as one of the top eight coaches around the globe for her thought leadership, entrepreneurial spirit, and contribution to coaching best practices. She is a founding member of the Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coaches and ranked the number one leadership coach in the world. She founded the Institute of Coaching with a $2 million gift from the Harnisch Foundation.

Carol is an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School, a visiting professor at Henley Business School, and a senior leadership adviser at Egon Zehnder. At Harvard she launched the annual Coaching in Leadership and Healthcare Conference, one of the school's most highly attended events. Her professional development program, Leader as Coach, won Harvard’s inaugural Program Award for Culture of Excellence in Mentoring and has been rolled out throughout the United States. She was also the founding editor-in-chief of Coaching: An International Journal of Theory, Research, and Practice. Carol is co-author with David Noble of Real-Time Leadership: Find Your Winning Moves When the Stakes are High*.

In this conversation, Carol and I explore the mindsets and tactics that are helpful when taking on a new, big leadership role. We discuss how vision, resolution, scope, and altitude play a key role in your success early on. Plus, we invite listeners to consider the importance of peer relationships and recognizing how others see you as your role begins.
Key Points

Having the right altitude often means looking much more broadly at the organization and moving past a subconscious bias towards your old role or department.
The “subject matter expert trap” is a common one. Your awareness will help you avoid it — or recognize it faster.
Good peer relationships are one of the strongest predicators of success in a new role. Make time to build these critical connections.
Learning to accept recognition is a key competency for an executive leader. Treat it as you would receiving any kind of gift.
Have an enterprise mindset and remember that people perceive you as representing the organization vs. just yourself. Thinking like the entity can help you show up in the way you intend.

Resources Mentioned

Real-Time Leadership: Find Your Winning Moves When the Stakes are High* by Carol Kauffman and David Noble

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Manage Former Peers, with Tom Henschel (episode 257)
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Joe Hart: Take Command
Joe Hart began his career as a practicing attorney. After taking a Dale Carnegie Course, Joe reassessed his career path and future, ultimately leaving the practice of law, going to work for a top real estate company, and then founding an innovative e-learning company and serving as president of health and wellness company. In 2015, Joe was named president and CEO of Dale Carnegie.

The CEO Forum Group named Joe as one of twelve transformative leaders, giving him the Transformative CEO Leadership Award in the category of the People. He is the host of a top global podcast, Take Command: A Dale Carnegie Podcast, and he speaks around the world on topics such as leadership, resilience, and innovation. He is the author with Michael Crom of Take Command: Find Your Inner Strength, Build Enduring Relationships, and Live the Life You Want*.

In this conversation, Joe and I explore how to discover another person’s values through meaningful conversation. We examine three types of questions to ask that gradually illuminate what’s important to another person. By knowing what to ask and what to listen for, we can uncover values without asking a more awkward question like, “What are your values?”
Key Points
Dale Carnegie invited us to, “Try honestly to see things from the other person’s point of view.” Use three types of questions to frame a conversation that uncovers another person’s values:

Examples of factual questions:


How did you first find out about…?
What keeps you busy during the week?
What do you like to do for fun?
What hobby or activity holds your interest?


Examples of causative questions:


What got you interesting in doing this kind of work?
How did you get involved in that hobby?
What do you like about…?
What caused you to enter into this industry?


Examples of values-based questions:


Tell me about someone who’s had a major impact on your life.
If you had to do it over again, what — if anything — would you do differently?
Tell me about a turning point in your career.
Tell about about something that you look back on as a high point or moment of pride.
How did you get through a major challenge in the past?
How would you describe your personal philosophy in a sentence or two?

Resources Mentioned

Take Command: Find Your Inner Strength, Build Enduring Relationships, and Live the Life You Want* by Joe Hart and Michael Crom

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Discover Who You Are, with Hortense le Gentil (episode 459)
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Dolly Chugh: A More Just Future
Dolly Chugh is a social psychologist and management professor at the New York University Stern School of Business where she teaches MBA courses in leadership and management. She was one of six professors chosen from thousands at NYU to receive the Distinguished Teaching Award in 2020 and one of five to receive the Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Faculty Award in 2013.

She has been named an SPSP Fellow, received the Academy of Management Best Paper award, and been named one of the top 100 Most Influential People in Business Ethics by Ethisphere Magazine. Her first book, The Person You Mean to Be has received rave praise from Adam Grant, Angela Duckworth, Liz Wiseman, Billie Jean King, and many others. She is the author of A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with our Past and Driving Social Change.

All of us know that we will be challenged by others. Sometimes how we see ourselves limits what we could do to change our behavior. In this conversation, Dolly and I discuss how we can do better and the mindset and actions that will help us move forward.
Key Points

There’s no such thing as bad weather, only unsuitable clothing.
Nostalgia feels good to many of us, but can get in the way of us seeing the “ands” in situations and experiences.
When we are challenged, especially in the context of identity, our tendency is either to deny, distance, or dismantle.
Feeling of guilt and shame are indicators that there is an opportunity to change. The goal is not to avoid them, but to use them as a starting point for different behavior.
Use values affirmations to give you a booster shot to prepare for the inevitable challenges ahead. These affirmations will help you respond in a more healthy way for everyone.

Resources Mentioned

Dear Good People newsletter by Dolly Chugh
TED talk: How to let go of being a "good" person -- and become a better person by Dolly Chugh
The Person You Mean to Be* by Dolly Chugh
A More Just Future* by Dolly Chugh

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

The Way Managers Can be Champions for Justice, with Minda Harts (episode 552)
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Daphne E. Jones: Win When They Say You Won't
Daphne E. Jones has 30 years of experience in general management and executive level roles at IBM, Johnson & Johnson, Hospira, and General Electric but began her career as a secretary. At GE, she served as Senior Vice President for Future of Work, Senior Vice President & Chief Information Officer for Product Engineering, Imaging, and Ultrasound, and as Senior Executive & Chief Information Officer for Global Services, all of which composed a $13 billion segment of GE Healthcare.

She serves on the board of directors for AMN Healthcare, Inc., Barnes Group Inc., and Masonite International Corp. She is the recipient of numerous domestic and international awards and recently started a company that teaches leaders how to prepare to serve on boards. She is the author of Win When They Say You Won't: Break Through Barriers and Keep Leveling Up Your Success*.

In this conversation, Daphne invites us to look at ourselves through the lens of a product, just as others will view us. We discuss the three critical elements of how stakeholders view you. Plus, Daphne and I explore the steps you can take to improve how you’re perceived through the different lenses that stakeholders see us through.
Key Points

Stakeholders are crucial for your success and it’s helpful for you to view yourself in their eyes (and yours) as a product.
Three elements are key: performance is doing your job well, image is how people describe you, and exposure is who knows you.
When you get radio silence in the context of happenings inside of your organization, that’s an indicator you are underexposed. Caution: you can also be overexposed.
Map your stakeholders in the context of their influence in your work and their interest in how it support their own objectives.
Mentors will make suggestions of things you should try. Find the part that will work for you and move on the advice.

Resources Mentioned

Win When They Say You Won't: Break Through Barriers and Keep Leveling Up Your Success* by Daphne E. Jones
To receive a free workbook, send receipt of your book purchase to daphne@daphneejones.com

Interview Notes
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Jennifer Garvey Berger: Unleashing Your Complexity Genius
Jennifer believes that leadership is one of the most vital renewable resources in the world. She designs and teaches leadership programs, coaches senior teams, and supports new ways of thinking about strategy and people. In her three highly acclaimed books, Unlocking Leadership Mindtraps, Simple Habits for Complex Times (co-authored with Keith Johnston), and Changing on the Job, she builds on deep theoretical knowledge to offer practical ways to make leaders’ work more meaningful and their lives more fun. She has worked with senior leaders in the private, non-profit, and government sectors around the world with organizations like Novartis, Google, KPMG, Intel, Microsoft, Wikimedia, and the New Zealand Department of Conservation.

Jennifer also supports executives one-on-one as a leadership coach. Over the last decade, she has developed the Growth Edge Coaching approach. She supports clients to find their current growing edge and then make choices about how they want to develop. She teaches coaches around the world transformational and developmental coaching approaches in her Growth Edge Coaching certification series. Jennifer speaks at leadership and coaching conferences, and she offers courses for coaches at universities all over the world. She is the co-author with Carolyn Coughlin of Unleash Your Complexity Genius: Growing Your Inner Capacity to Lead*.

In this conversation, Jennifer and I discuss the reality that most of us don’t like uncertainty. That makes experimenting with new ideas and actions in complex environments very challenging. We uncover several practices that can help us benefit from experimentation in the midst of complexity and grow from these experiences.
Key Points

Complicated situations are hard, but have a clear answer (such as how to send humans to the moon). In contract, complex situations are dynamic; yesterday’s answer may not work tomorrow.
Most of us really dislike complexity, to the extent that that people with terminal diseases are happier than those who will likely recover.
Step-by-step approaches don’t work in very complex situations. Instead, take action through thoughtful experimentation.
When experimenting, release your attachment to outcomes.
Lean into humility and don’t shy away from endings. Putting end dates on experiments helps us move forward — and sometimes remove what isn’t working.

Resources Mentioned

Unleash Your Complexity Genius: Growing Your Inner Capacity to Lead* by Jennifer Garvey Berger and Carolyn Coughlin

Interview Notes
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Wendy Smith: Both/And Thinking
Wendy Smith is the Dana J. Johnson Professor of Management and faculty director of the Women’s Leadership Initiative at the Lerner College of Business and Economics, University of Delaware. She earned her PhD in organizational behavior at Harvard Business School, where she began her intensive research on strategic paradoxes—how leaders and senior teams effectively respond to contradictory, yet interdependent demands. She has received the Web of Science Highly Cited Research Award for being among the 1 percent most-cited researchers in her field and received the Decade Award from the Academy of Management Review for the most cited paper in the past 10 years.

Her work has been published in such journals as Academy of Management Journal, Administrative Science Quarterly, Harvard Business Review, Organization Science, and Management Science. She has taught at the University of Delaware, Harvard, and Wharton while helping senior leaders and middle managers all over the world address issues of interpersonal dynamics, team performance, organizational change, and innovation. She is the author with Marianne Lewis of Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems.

In this episode, Wendy and I discuss the dangers of either/or thinking and how that tendency limits our effectiveness. We explore how to shift to both/and thinking in order to resolve the most challenging problems. Plus, we share key tactics that will help us do this in more practical ways.
Key Points

Framing a decision as an either/or will often minimize short-term anxiety, but limits creative and innovative long-term possibilities.
While easy to see both/and opportunities for others, we’re likely to approach things as either/or when it’s ourselves. An outside perspective from someone who’s not emotionally connected is helpful.
Changing the question we are asking is the most powerful to navigate paradoxes.
Moving up a level when facing tough decisions can help us see the big picture.
Consider shifting from “making a choice” to “choosing” in order to lead us towards better outcomes.

Resources Mentioned

Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems* by Wendy Smith and Marianne Lewis

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Ask Better Questions, with David Marquet (episode 454)
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Jorge Alzate
Jorge Alzate is a senior R&D manager at PepsiCo, an active leader in Toastmasters, and an alum of the Coaching for Leaders Academy. In this conversation, Jorge and I discuss what brought him to the podcast, how he utilized the Academy to help his career move forward, and the critical nature of courage for leadership growth.
Key Points

One action a day (the blue marbles for Jorge) is the way to create a new habit that can develops into a skill.
Accountability is key to move us forward, even if it does not feel comfortable in the moment.
Courage is the ability to act in spite of fear — and almost always necessary before confidence.

Resources Mentioned

Feel the Fear...and Do It Anyway* by Susan Jeffers
Winning Conditions: How to Achieve the Professional Success You Deserve by Managing the Details That Matter* by Christine Hofbeck

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Leadership Through Consistency, with Joseph Getuno (episode 490)
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Patrick Lencioni: The 6 Types of Working Genius
Patrick Lencioni is founder and president of The Table Group, a firm dedicated to protecting human dignity in the world of work, personal development, and faith. Pat’s passion for organizations and teams is reflected in his writing, speaking, executive consulting, and most recently his three podcasts, At the Table with Patrick Lencioni, The Working Genius Podcast, and The Simple Reminder.

Pat is the author of twelve best-selling books with over seven million copies sold. After twenty years in print, his classic book The Five Dysfunctions of a Team remains a weekly fixture on national best-seller lists. He has been featured in numerous publications, including the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, USA Today, Inc. magazine, and Chief Executive magazine. He is the author of The 6 Types of Working Genius: A Better Way to Understand Your Gifts, Your Frustrations, and Your Team.

Many of us have heard the invitation from Jim Collin’s book Good to Great to get the right people on the bus. But once the right people are on the bus, how to do you find the right seat for each person? On this episode, Pat and I discuss how to utilize the Working Genius model to find the right work for the right team members.
Key Points

When addressing burnout, the type of work someone does is more significant than the volume of work.
Three stages of work are present for almost every team: ideation, activation, and implementation.
A cup of coffee in an excellent thermos can stay hot an entire day — that’s true of us when we’re aligned with our working geniuses.
Finding the right work for a team member is far easier than finding the right person culturally. Before you look elsewhere, be sure they are in the right seat.
To fill gaps in your team’s geniuses, you can hire, borrow, or find people where competence will suffice for now. Resist the temptation to immediately jump to hiring.

Resources Mentioned

The 6 Types of Working Genius assessment
The 6 Types of Working Genius: A Better Way to Understand Your Gifts, Your Frustrations, and Your Team by Patrick Lencioni

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Get the Ideal Team Player, with Patrick Lencioni (episode 301)
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Ram Charan: Leading Through Inflation
Ram Charan is a bestselling author, teacher, and world-renowned advisor to CEOs and other business leaders of some of the world’s best-known companies. His work is often behind the scenes and focused on highly sensitive and fate-making issues. Fortune magazine published a profile of Ram in which it called him “the most influential consultant alive.” His book Execution, lauded for its practicality, spent more than 150 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list.

Ram’s energetic, interactive teaching style has won him several awards, including from GE’s famous Crotonville Institute and Northwestern. Ram was elected a Distinguished Fellow of the National Academy of Human Resources and was named one of the most influential people in corporate governance and the board room by Directorship magazine. He has served on the Blue Ribbon Commission on Corporate Governance and serves or has served on a dozen boards in the U.S., Brazil, China, India, Canada, and Dubai. He is the author with Geri Willigan of Leading Through Inflation: And Recession And Stagflation.

In this conversation, Ram and I explore the changing macroeconomic environment and what leaders can do to address it. We discuss the importance of managing cash well and how pricing decisions can be made effectively. Plus, we discuss the critical nature of partnerships throughout the supply chain — and where the opportunities may be in the midst of challenge.
Key Points

Inflation consumes cash. Cash management is the number one risk to an organization during this time.
The way to get ahead of the curve is to be predictive vs. reactive. This may be a time the existing business model needs to change.
Inflation creates an illusion of growth. It’s important to adjust for this in all reporting and planning.
Work with all sides of the value chain. Help customers deal with rising costs while also working closely with suppliers. Regular communication is essential.
Smaller, regular price adjustments are better than less frequent, larger increases. Resist the temptation to offer less for the same price.

Resources Mentioned

Leading Through Inflation: And Recession And Stagflation* by Ram Charan and Geri Willigan.

Interview Notes
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Improve Your Financial Intelligence, with Joe Knight (episode 244)
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Christina Maslach: The Burnout Challenge
Christina Maslach is the pioneer of research on job burnout, producing the standard assessment tool called the Maslach Burnout Inventory, award-winning articles, and several books, beginning with Burnout: The Cost of Caring, in 1982. Her research achievements over the past five decades have led to multiple awards from the National Academy of Sciences, Western Psychological Association, Society for Personality and Social Psychology, and many others.

Christina has received awards for her outstanding teaching, including USA Professor of the Year in 1997. She has been a Professor of Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley since 1971. Christina is now a core researcher at the Healthy Workplaces Center, at Berkeley, and the author along with Michael Leiter of The Burnout Challenge: Managing People's Relationships With Their Jobs*.

In this conversation, Christina and I address the reality that burnout is often perceived as an issue with just the individual. We explore how leaders can begin to look at the larger picture: context, culture, and management, in order to address burnout more proactively. We discuss key mindsets that will help and a few tactics that almost every leader can use to get started.
Key Points

The canary in the coal mine is an indicator of a problem, not the source of it.
Our tendency is to focus on the person (the figure) and to miss all the context and environment factors (the ground).
Burnout is first and foremost a management issue. “Fixing” the person should not be the focus — instead, get curious about where there is a mismatch.
Instead of focusing on what’s wrong with the person, shift to what may be wrong in the relationship between the person and situation.
Ensure you have a plan for communicated survey results. If you’d done surveys previously, share those results and also the actions the organization had taken before engaging in more surveys.

Resources Mentioned

The Burnout Challenge: Managing People's Relationships With Their Jobs* by Christina Maslach and Michael Leiter

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

Gallup Findings on the Changing Nature of Work, with Jim Harter (episode 409)
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Annie Duke: Quit
Annie Duke is an author, corporate speaker, and consultant in the decision-making space, as well as Special Partner focused on Decision Science at First Round Capital Partners, a seed stage venture fund. Her previous book, Thinking in Bets, is a national bestseller. As a former professional poker player, she has won more than $4 million in tournament poker. During her career, Annie won a World Series of Poker bracelet and is the only woman to have won the World Series of Poker Tournament of Champions and the NBC National Poker Heads-Up Championship. She retired from the game in 2012. Prior to becoming a professional poker player, she was awarded a National Science Foundation Fellowship to study Cognitive Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.

Annie is the co-founder of The Alliance for Decision Education, a non-profit whose mission is to improve lives by empowering students through decision skills education. She is a member of the National Board of After-School All-Stars and the Board of Directors of the Franklin Institute. She also serves on the board of the Renew Democracy Initiative. Annie is the author of Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away*.

We’ve all heard the lie that, “Winners never quit and quitters never win.” In reality, one of the best practices to develop is how to recognize more quickly when you should quit something that’s not working. In this conversation, Annie and I discuss how to set kill criteria for yourself and frame goals in more helpful ways to know when quitting is the best answer.
Key Points

Kenny Rogers was right; professional poker players know that a big part of success is quitting approximately 75% of the time.
“Quit while you’re ahead” is often poor advice since we tend to quit too early when good things are happening. On the contrary, we tend to quit too late when we’ve accumulated sunk cost.
Determine kill criteria in advance when you’re not as likely to be swayed by the emotions of the moment. The best criteria contain both a state and a date.
Find someone who loves you but doesn’t care about your feelings. Trust and permission are essential to open up these kinds of conversations.
Effective goals include at least one “unless…”

Resources Mentioned

Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away* by Annie Duke

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Pivot Quickly, with Steve Blank (episode 476)
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Kristin Keffeler: The Myth of the Silver Spoon
Kristin Keffeler is a thought leader and consultant at the forefront of a global shift in family wealth advising, known as Wealth 3.0. She guides affluent and enterprising families, the rising generation, and the professionals who support them in embracing the positive power of wealth, aligning their vision with their impact. As the founder of Illumination360, she specializes in human motivation and behavioral change, family dynamics, family governance, rising generation education and development, and intergenerational collaboration.

She is the Dean of Positive Psychology for the Purposeful Planning Institute, sits on the Board of Advisors for the Bailey Program for Family Enterprise at the University of Denver, is a faculty member with the Ultra-High Net Worth Institute, a certified trainer with 21/64, a national nonprofit for advancing multigenerational philanthropy, and is the co-founder of Beneficiary Bootcamp. She is the author of The Myth of the Silver Spoon: Navigating Family Wealth & Creating an Impactful Life*.

In this conversation, Kristin and I discuss a reality that’s true for almost every leader: whether we have wealth ourselves, almost all of us interact with wealthy people. We explore some of the myths of wealth to understand the psychological challenges that wealth often brings. Plus, we learn from what works (and doesn’t) for wealthy families so that we can have better conversations about wealth in our own families.
Key Points

While wealth brings resources, it also brings psychological challenges for many people with wealth.
More money doesn't equal happiness. Small inheritances can increase happiness, but large ones do not.
Many people with wealth find close relationships a bit of a struggle.
While our perception may be that the most wealthy are selfish and greedy, more often individuals (especially next generations) tend to under-identify with family wealth.
Ground decisions in values that align with a vision of thriving.
There’s a huge difference in the next generation having a little bit of ownership in a financial event vs. not having any ownership.

Resources Mentioned

The Myth of the Silver Spoon: Navigating Family Wealth & Creating an Impactful Life* by Kristin Keffeler

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Reduce Drama With Kids, with Tina Payne Bryson (episode 310)
Dumb Things Smart People Do With Money, with Jill Schlesinger (episode 396)
The Way to Build Wealth, with Chris Hogan (episode 502)

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Ian Morgan Cron: The Road Back to You
Ian Morgan Cron is a bestselling author, speaker, trained psychotherapist, songwriter, and Episcopal priest, but he may be best known for popularizing the Enneagram. The Enneagram is a personality typing system identifying nine types of people and how they relate to one another and the world. His popular Enneagram book, The Road Back to You* gave fresh language and interest in this assessment.

Ian enjoys sharing about the Enneagram with audiences of all sizes because of its power for igniting personal growth, and how it can enrich our personal and professional lives. His newest book The Story of You* helps people go a step further, using Enneagram wisdom to uncover and rewrite our own false narratives so we can live life more fully.

In this conversation, Ian and I look at the core aspects of the Enneagram model and how it can help us understand ourselves better so we can also support others more effectively. We highlight the nine Enneagram types and their key traits and distinctions. Then, we discuss how the first steps leaders might take in order to start raising their own self-awareness.
Key Points

Too often we believe that how we see the world is “normal” instead of recognizing that there are many normal ways to see the world.
Personality is like the rooms of our home. We have a favorite room but we still use all the other rooms when its appropriate.

The 9 Enneagram Types

The Perfectionist - Ethical, dedicated and reliable, they are motivated by a desire to live the right way, improve the world, and avoid fault and blame.
The Helper - Warm, caring and giving, they are motivated by a need to be loved and needed, and to avoid acknowledging their own needs.
The Performer (or Achiever) - Success-oriented, image-conscious and wired for productivity, they are motivated by a need to be (or appear to be) successful and to avoid failure.
The Romantic (or Individualist) - Creative, sensitive and moody, they are motivated by a need to be understood, experience their oversized feelings and avoid being ordinary.
The Investigator - Analytical, detached and private, they are motivated by a need to gain knowledge, conserve energy and avoid relying on others.
The Loyalist - Committed, practical and witty, they are worst-case-scenario thinkers who are motivated by fear and the need for security.
The Enthusiast - Fun, spontaneous and adventurous, they are motivated by a need to be happy, to plan stimulating experiences and to avoid pain.
The Challenger - Commanding, intense and confrontational, they are motivated by a need to be strong and avoid feeling weak or vulnerable.
The Peacemaker - Pleasant, laid back and accommodating, they are motivated by a need to keep the peace, merge with others and avoid conflict.

Resources Mentioned

The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery* by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile
The Story of You: An Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self* by Ian Morgan Cron
Take the Integrative Enneagram iEQ9
Typology Institute Enneagram courses

Related Episodes

Enhance Your Self-Awareness, with Daniel Goleman (episode 353)
The Way to Be More Self-Aware, with Tasha Eurich (episode 442)
Discover Who You Are, with Hortense le Gentil (episode 459)

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Gustavo Razzetti: Remote Not Distant
Gustavo Razzetti is the CEO and founder of Fearless Culture, a culture design consultancy that helps teams do the best work of their lives. For more than 20 years, he has helped leaders from Fortune 500s, startups, nonprofits, and everything in between. He is also the creator of the Culture Design Canvas, a framework used by thousands of teams and organizations across the world to map, assess, and design their culture.

In addition to his consulting work, Gustavo regularly speaks with leaders and teams about culture change, teamwork, and hybrid workplaces. He is the author of four books on culture change. His most recent book is Remote Not Distant: Design a Company Culture That Will Help You Thrive in a Hybrid Workplace*.

In this conversation, Gustavo and I explore the critical nature of trust for building belonging on hybrid and remote teams. We examine the principles of psychological safety and how this matters just as much in digital collaboration. Perhaps most importantly, we look at several tactics to open up trust that will help us pave the ways towards team belonging.
Key Points

Hybrid work environments have the potential to be the best of both words, but in some places it is now worse.
Trust is between individuals. Psychological safety is about how safe we feel with a team.
It’s helpful to think of building psychological safety like climbing a ladder. Ironically, the higher you go on the ladder, the safer you feel taking risks.
Welcoming questions such as “What's your superpower?” and “What's your kryptonite?” can be useful starting points for building trust.
Metaphors are often a powerful way to entire into more complex, emotional discussion without feeling unsafe.

Resources Mentioned

Remote Not Distant: Design a Company Culture That Will Help You Thrive in a Hybrid Workplace* by Gustavo Razzetti

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Create Team Guidelines, with Susan Gerke (episode 192)
How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404)
How to Engage Remote Teams, with Tsedal Neeley (episode 537)

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Lynn Perry Wooten: The Prepared Leader
Lynn Perry Wooten is a seasoned academic and an expert on organizational development and transformation. She became the ninth president of Simmons University on July 1, 2020 and is the first African American to lead the university. Her research specializes in crisis leadership, diversity and inclusion, and positive leadership—organizational behavior that reveals and nurtures the highest level of human potential.

Lynn has also had a robust clinical practice, providing leadership development, education, and training for a wide variety of companies and institutions, from the Kellogg Foundation to Harvard University’s Kennedy School, and to Google. She is the coauthor of Arrive and Thrive: 7 Impactful Practices for Women Navigating Leadership and the coeditor of Positive Organizing in a Global Society: Understanding and Engaging Differences for Capacity Building and Inclusion. She is also the author with Erika James of The Prepared Leader: Emerge from Any Crisis More Resilient Than Before*.

In this conversation, Lynn and I discuss why crises are not isolated events, even through they are often treated that way. We explore the critical nature of trust and how to build it quickly in crisis. We then detail three key areas of trust that will help leaders begin to support a team shift towards better outcomes.
Key Points

Crises are not single events. They happen again and again, necessitating leaders preparation for them.
In normal times, trust is key. In a time of crisis, it’s essential.
Regular communication is essential in a crisis. Avoid the tendency to downplay risks. In fact, it’s useful to paint a picture of the worst case scenario.
Leaders need to determine is there is a strong sense of a contractual obligation between them and their teams.
It’s critical for leaders to assess the competence of their team to be able to respond to the crisis at hand.
Frequent, high performance meetings are essential during a time of crisis.

Resources Mentioned

The Prepared Leader: Emerge from Any Crisis More Resilient Than Before* by Lynn Perry Wooten and Erika James

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Lead in Crisis, with Carol Taylor (episode 55)
How to be Diplomatic, with Susan Rice (episode 456)
The Way Out of Major Conflict, with Amanda Ripley (episode 529)
The Starting Point for Inclusive Leadership, with Susan MacKenty Brady (episode 584)

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Gemma Aguiar: Design Like Whoa
Gemma Aguiar is the CEO of Design Like Whoa. Her firm helps brands like Sephora, Meta, the Golden State Warriors, and Spotify amplify their brand and strengthen their culture through sustainably focused apparel, accessories, and gifts. Her team serves clients by curating meaningful, high-quality products through partnership with local, minority-owned, sustainable, and mission-driven businesses. She's also an alum of the Coaching for Leaders Academy.

In this episode, Gemma and I discuss the transition she made of doing it all herself early on in the business to now empowering a large team. We detail how she made this change tactically through calendar blocking, regular delegation, and intentional outcomes. Plus, we explore how asking for help is a critical muscle for all leaders to develop.
Key Points

Gemma didn’t see the growth potential in her traditional role, so she started her own, sustainable business.
Being able to do lots of things well can be a trap for leaders. Shifting to delegate effectively is key.
Getting clear on how time is used through planning and calendar blocking is essential.
The responsibility of leadership changes over time. It’s key to be able to learn and adapt as the organization demands a different skillset.
Asking for help is a critical competency for leaders. Getting better at this opens tons of doors.

Resources Mentioned

Design Like Whoa
hello@designlikewhoa.com

Related Episodes

These Coaching Questions Get Results, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 237)
Five Steps to Hold People Accountable, with Jonathan Raymond (episode 306)
The Way to Capture the Power of Moments, with Chip Heath (episode 329)
Align Your Calendar to What Matters, with Nir Eyal (episode 431)
How to Define a Role, with Pat Griffin (episode 517)

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Jon Clifton: Blind Spot
Jon Clifton is the CEO of Gallup. His mission is to help 7 billion citizens be heard on their most pressing work and life issues through the Gallup World Poll, a 100-year initiative spanning over 150 countries. He is a nonresident senior fellow at Baylor University’s Institute for Studies of Religion and serves on the boards of directors for Gallup and Young Professionals in Foreign Policy.

Jon has been interviewed on BBC News, Axios, C-SPAN’s “Washington Journal,” and Al-Jazeera, and he has testified in front of the U.S. Congress on the state of American small business and entrepreneurship. He is a frequent contributor on Gallup.com and has written for The Hill, The Diplomatic Courier, and The Global Action Report. He is the author of Blind Spot: The Global Rise of Unhappiness and How Leaders Missed It.

In this conversation, Jon and I discuss why many objective numbers like GDP appear positive and yet don’t correlate to wellbeing and happiness. We examine how to think about more subjective measures and ways for leaders and organizations to gain insight. Plus, we dialogue about what managers can do to help make genuine connections in the workplace.
Key Points

While objective trends worldwide such as GDP and the Human Development Index have been positive for decades, people are angrier, sadder, and more worried than ever.
There’s a key distinction between how someone sees their life and how someone lives their life.
Money does not buy happiness, but it is hard to be happy without it.
Frequent conversations, listening, and framing work around strengths are key actions managers can take to address unhappiness with employees.

Examples of questions/survey topics to ask of customers to gain insight into emotional attachment:
Company always delivers on what they promise.

I feel proud to be a Company customer.

Company is the perfect company for people like me.
Examples of questions/survey topics to ask of suppliers to to gain insight into emotional attachment:
Company always treats me with respect.

Company is easy to do business with.

Company always does what they say they will do.
Resources Mentioned

Blind Spot: The Global Rise of Unhappiness and How Leaders Missed It* by Jon Clifton
CliftonStrengths (formerly StrengthsFinder) assessment

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

These Coaching Questions Get Results, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 237)
How Teams Use StrengthsFinder Results, with Lisa Cummings (episode 293)
How to Help People Thrive, with Jim Harter (episode 532)

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Scott Anthony Barlow: Happen to Your Career
Scott Anthony Barlow wants you to find work you love. He is CEO of Happen To Your Career and host of the Happen to Your Career podcast, which has been listened to over 3 million times across 159 countries and is the largest career change podcast in the world.

As a former HR leader, Scott has interviewed over two thousand people for jobs and completely rejects the way most organizations choose to do work. He’s a nerd for self development, human behavior, and ice hockey. He's the author of the book Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work*.

In this conversation, Scott and I discuss the assumptions that many of us bring to finding career happiness — and where those assumptions might lead us astray. We also explore in detail the process that Scott and his team use with clients: career experimenting. In addition, Scott and I share how we’ve used experimenting in our own careers to align with meaning.
Key Points

People assume that you start with clarity. In actuality, you start with declaring priorities, which is what eventually creates clarity.
Taking vacation or an extended break from work is important for many reasons, but it’s not often the activity that creates clarity.
Movement and experimenting is the way you move from declaring your priorities to creating clarity.
Use career experiments as a way to begin surfacing interests and relationships that will help you to find clarity.
Leaders should open the door to career experimentation to support employees in developing themselves inside the organization — or potentially moving onto other opportunities.

Resources Mentioned

Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work* by Scott Anthony Barlow
Finding the Career That Fits You (Scott’s FREE 8-Day Video Course)

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Actually Move Numbers, with Chris McChesney (episode 294)
Three Steps to Great Career Conversations, with Russ Laraway (episode 370)
Ten Years of Leadership, with Dave Stachowiak (episode 541)
How to Reduce Burnout, with Jennifer Moss (episode 561)

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Robert Lefkowitz: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Stockholm
Robert Lefkowitz is James B. Duke Professor of Medicine and Professor of Biochemistry and Chemistry at the Duke University Medical Center. His group spent 15 difficult years developing techniques for labeling the receptors with radioactive drugs and then purifying the four different receptors that were known and thought to exist for adrenaline. In 1986 Bob and his team transformed the understanding of what had become known as G protein coupled receptors, when he and his colleagues cloned the gene for the beta2-adrenergic receptor.

Today, more than half of all prescription drug sales are of drugs that target either directly or indirectly the receptors discovered by Bob and his trainees. These include amongst many others beta blockers, angiotensin receptor blockers or ARBs and antihistamines. He has received numerous honors and awards, including the National Medal of Science, the Shaw Prize, the Albany Prize, and the 2012 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. He was elected to the National Academy of Sciences, the Institute of Medicine, and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. He is the author with Randy Hall of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Stockholm: The Adrenaline Fueled Adventures of an Accidental Scientist*.

In this conversation, Bob and I explore the important nature of mentoring in his success — and how he has in turn utilized mentoring to support so many colleagues and students. We discuss the importance of building careers around problems versus techniques and other key principles that effective mentors adopt. Plus, we explore the key of ownership of work and using fun as an indicator to follow.
Key Points

Success is rarely accidental. Most people with extraordinary accomplishments had outstanding mentors along the way.
Teach people to build their careers around problems, not techniques.
The crucial job of a mentor is to keep things in focus for the person you are mentoring — both in their current work and their careers.
People achieve the most motivation when they have ownership over their work.
A key measure of striking the right guidance between ownership and guidance is whether or not everybody is having fun.

Resources Mentioned

A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Stockholm: The Adrenaline Fueled Adventures of an Accidental Scientist* by Robert Lefkowitz

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

What You Gain By Sponsoring People, with Julia Taylor Kennedy (episode 398)
How to Know What You Don’t Know, with Art Markman (episode 437)
How to Lead and Retain High Performers, with Ruth Gotian (episode 567)

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Oscar Trimboli: How to Listen
Oscar Trimboli is an author, host of the Apple award-winning podcast Deep Listening and a sought-after keynote speaker. He is passionate about using the gift of listening to bring positive change in homes, workplaces, and cultures around the world. Through his work with chairs, boards of directors, and executive teams, Oscar has experienced firsthand the transformational impact leaders and organizations can have when they listen beyond the words.

Oscar is a marketing and technology industry veteran with over 30 years experience across general management, sales, marketing, and operations for Microsoft, PeopleSoft, Polycom, Professional Advantage, and Vodafone. He is the author of the book, Deep Listening and now, his newest book, How to Listen: Discover the Hidden Key to Better Communication*.

In this conversation, Oscar and I explore several of the assumptions that tend to get in our way of listening well. Oscar highlights distinctions that will be useful mindsets for you in showing up better in future conversations. Plus, we discuss how listing goes far beyond simply asking questions.
Key Points

Before we begin listening, it is helpful to tune…much like as orchestra.
We can’t always give our full attention, but we can make the choice as to whether we are paying attention or giving attention.
As much as we intend otherwise, sometimes we listen less well in our closest relationships.
Aim to be curious instead of drawing conclusions.
Asking questions does not necessarily mean you are listening well. Aimless and arbitrary questions are everywhere.

Resources Mentioned

How to Listen: Discover the Hidden Key to Better Communication* by Oscar Trimboli

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

The Way to Be More Coach-Like, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 458)
Four Habits That Derail Listening, with Oscar Trimboli (episode 500)
How to Genuinely Show Up for Others, with Marshall Goldsmith (episode 590)

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Megan Reitz: Speak Up
Megan Reitz is Professor of Leadership and Dialogue at Hult International Business School where she speaks, researches, consults and supervises on the intersection of leadership, change, dialogue and mindfulness. She is on the Thinkers50 ranking of global business thinkers and is ranked in HR Magazine’s Most Influential Thinkers listing. She has written Dialogue in Organizations and Mind Time.

She is a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review and her research has recently featured in Forbes, on the BBC, in TEDx talks, and in numerous academic and practice-based journals. Her latest research on employee activism was nominated for the Thinkers50 Breakthrough Idea Award. Her most recent book with John Higgins is titled Speak Up: Say What Needs to Be Said and Hear What Needs to Be Heard*.

Many leaders consider what they need to do in order to speak truth to others, but rarely focus on how to make it easier for people to speak to them. In this conversation, Megan and I explore what leaders can do in order to hear what needs to be heard. We share several tactics that will make it easier for others to surface what you need to hear.
Key Points

Speaking up and listening up go hand in hand. Power always affects what gets said and what gets heard.
A key checkpoint is whether or not you really value the opinion of others.
Where you have conversations can make a massive difference on how comfortable the other party is in surfacing an important message for you to hear.
Leaders who have margin in their daily schedules create space for the right moment to hear truth.
Proactively invite challenge and debate through specific invitations. One example: “What do you know that I need to know, but will never be told?”

Resources Mentioned

Speak Up: Say What Needs to Be Said and Hear What Needs to Be Heard* by Megan Reitz and John Higgins

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

How to Ask Better Questions, with David Marquet (episode 454)
How to Speak Up, with Connson Locke (episode 546)
How to Use Power Responsibly, with Vanessa Bohns (episode 551)

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Bill George: True North
Bill George is executive fellow at Harvard Business School, where he has taught leadership since 2004. He is the author of four best-selling books: Authentic Leadership, True North, Discover Your True North, and 7 Lessons for Leading in Crisis.

He was chair and CEO of Medtronic, the world’s leading medical technology company. Under his leadership, Medtronic’s market capitalization grew from $1.1 billion to $60 billion, averaging 35 percent a year. Bill has served as a director of Goldman Sachs, ExxonMobil, Novartis, Target, the Mayo Clinic, and World Economic Forum USA. He has been named one of the Top 25 Business Leaders of the Past 25 Years by PBS, Executive of the Year by Academy of Management, and Director of the Year by National Association of Corporate Directors. He is the author with Zach Clayton of True North: Leading Authentically in Today's Workplace, Emerging Leader Edition*.

We’ve all seen leadership go badly and most of us struggle with tendencies to get pulled off course. In this conversation, Bill and I explore the five most common archetypes that tend to derail leaders and the antidote that prevents them. We also discuss how we can recognize these tendencies in ourselves so that we can do better for others.
Key Points
Five archetypes of leadership derailment:

Imposters: political animals who figure out who their competitors and then eliminate them.
Rationalizers: masters of denial who don’t take responsibility themselves.
Glory seekers: motivated by the acclaim of the world.
Loners: they believe they can make it on their own and reject feedback.
Shooting stars: they build shallow foundations and move on quickly to the next things, often avoiding commitment.

Antidotes to leadership derailment:
Write down the most difficult ethical dilemma you are currently facing and chronicle the “least generous” interpretation of your actions.
Project forward a decade and assume the worst: you have derailed in a major failure. Envision the situation in which you could lose your way.
Resources Mentioned

True North: Leading Authentically in Today's Workplace, Emerging Leader Edition* by Bill George and Zach Clayton

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

Discover Your True North, with Bill George (episode 225)
Leadership Lies We Tell Ourselves, with Emily Leathers (episode 479)
How to Help Your Manager Shine, with David Gergen (episode 588)

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Amy Gallo: Getting Along
Amy Gallo is an expert in conflict, communication, and workplace dynamics. She combines the latest management research with practical advice to deliver evidence-based ideas on how to improve relationships and excel at work. In her role as a contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, Amy writes about interpersonal dynamics, communicating ideas, leading and influencing people, and building your career.

Amy is co-host of HBR's Women at Work podcast and author of both the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict and Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone (Even Difficult People)*.

In this conversation, Amy and I discuss one of the most common questions she receives from leaders: how do I handle a colleague who’s passive aggressive? We examine what causes this behavior, how to respond to it, and what to avoid that could worsen the relationship. Plus, we discuss the intention that leaders can bring in responding to passive-aggressive behavior that will help everybody move forward.
Key Points

Don’t use the “passive-aggressive behavior” to label someone. It rarely helps and often results in more defensiveness.
Focus on the other person’s underlying concern or question rather than how they are expressing it. Not everyone is able to discuss thoughts and feelings openly.
Consider doing hypothesis testing to determine what’s next. Language like, “Here’s the story I’m telling myself…” can help everyone move forward without assigning blame.
When making a direct request, stick to the facts. Review past behavior like you’re a referee vs. a fan.
Artificial harmony is a danger spot for teams and leaders. Setting norms can help to reduce passive-aggressive behavior.

Resources Mentioned

Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone (Even Difficult People)* by Amy Gallo

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

The Way to Have Conversations That Matter, with Celeste Headlee (episode 344)
Four Habits That Derail Listening, with Oscar Trimboli (episode 500)
How to Prepare for Conflict, with Amy Gallo (episode 530)
The Way to Get People Talking, with Andrew Warner (episode 560)

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Kwame Christian: How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race
Kwame Christian is a best-selling author, lawyer, professor, and the Managing Director of the American Negotiation Institute. He has conducted countless specialized trainings worldwide and is a highly sought after keynote speaker. His best-selling book, Finding Confidence in Conflict has helped countless individuals overcome the fear, anxiety, and emotion associated with difficult conversations. The book was inspired by Kwame’s TED Talk with the same name that has over 250,000 views. He’s also host of the Negotiate Anything Podcast, the most popular negotiation podcast in the world.

Kwame was the recipient of the John Glenn College of Public Affairs Young Alumni Achievement Award in 2020 and the Moritz College of Law Outstanding Recent Alumnus Award 2021. Additionally, Kwame is a business lawyer at Carlile, Patchen & Murphy LLP and serves a professor for The Ohio State University’s Moritz College of Law in its top-ranked dispute resolution program and Otterbein University’s MBA program. He is also a Contributor for Forbes and his LinkedIn Learning course, How to Be Both Likable And Assertive, was the most popular course on the platform in July of 2021. He is the author of How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race: Practical Tools for Necessary Change in the Workplace and Beyond*.

In this conversation, Kwame and I discuss how to begin a difficult conversation about race. We explore the key questions that each of us should ask ourselves so that we can determine in advance what we want to gain from a tough conversation. Finally, we look at the three critical things to say in the first 30 seconds that will help you start an important conversation that helps everybody move forward.
Key Points

It's hard for someone else to appreciate how much of a person's identity affects every other area of their lives until you've lived it.
People explain away racism because they don’t like it and don’t want it to be true.
Whether you think a conversation is about race or not, if it’s about race for the other person then you’re having a conversation about race.

There questions to ask yourself before a conversation:

What do I hope to accomplish in this conversation?
Given what I know about them and the situation, what is likely to be their goal?
What are three questions I can ask them that will help me to understand their position?


Use situation, impact, and invitation as the starting point for a difficult conversation. Usually this is less than 30 seconds.
“Naked facts” reduce the likelihood that someone will dispute the premise of what you are addressing.

Resources Mentioned

How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race: Practical Tools for Necessary Change in the Workplace and Beyond* by Kwame Christian
Negotiate Anything podcast

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

The Way Into Difficult Conversations, with Kwame Christian (episode 497)
How to Reduce Bias in Feedback, with Therese Huston (episode 510)
The Way Managers Can be Champions for Justice, with Minda Harts (episode 552)

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David Hutchens: Story Dash
David Hutchens helps leaders find and tell their stories. He works with leaders around the world to find, craft, and tell their most urgent stories for the purpose of creating shared meaning, preserving culture, disseminating learning, and speeding change in organizations.

He has taught the Storytelling Leader program at some of the most influential organizations — and he’s written many books, including the Circle of the 9 Muses and The Leadership Story Deck. He is the co-creator with longtime friend of the show Susan Gerke of the GO Team program. He's also the author of the new book, Story Dash: Find, Develop, and Activate Your Most Valuable Business Stories…In Just a Few Hours.

In this conversation, David and I discuss how to find stories that you can use in your organization. We reflect on the reality that we both hear many leaders say to us: “How do I find the right stories?” David then shares the key principles and steps that every leader can take to surface and curate the best stories.
Key Points

The “Us At Our Best” taxonomy is what it looks like when are are delivering with energy and excellence. A recent Southwest Airlines story is an example of this.
Find the area the area of your work where you need to influence the emotional system.
Trust stories about small moments. Don’t attempt to create an epic drama of huge importance. The best stories are individual incidents that send a bigger message.
Formal story mining can be done alone or as team building. Institutionalizing practices like story sharing can help this happen regularly and naturally.
When informally collecting stories, listen for time, place, and person as signals that a story is beginning.

Resources Mentioned

Download a free set of Story Deck cards or…
Reach out to David directly at david@davidhutchens.com for more free resources
Purchase the full set of Leadership Story Deck by David Hutchens

Related Episodes

How to Create an Unstoppable Culture, with Ginger Hardage (episode 350)
Three Stories to Tell During Uncertainty, with David Hutchens (episode 486)
The Way to Earn Attention, with Raja Rajamannar (episode 521)

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Ari Weinzweig: A Lapsed Anarchist’s Approach to The Power of Beliefs in Business
In 1982, Ari, along with his partner Paul Saginaw, founded Zingerman’s Delicatessen with a $20,000 bank loan, a Russian History degree from the University of Michigan, 4 years of experience washing dishes, cooking, and managing in restaurant kitchens and chutzpah from his hometown of Chicago. Today, Zingerman’s Delicatessen is a nationally renowned food icon and the Zingerman’s Community of Businesses has grown to 10 businesses with over 750 employees and over $55 million in annual revenue.

Besides being the Co-Founding Partner and being actively engaged in some aspect of the day-to-day operations and governance of nearly every business in the Zingerman’s Community, Ari is also a prolific writer. His most recent publications are the first 4 of his 6 book series Zingerman’s Guide to Good Leading, including A Lapsed Anarchist’s Approach to The Power of Beliefs in Business.

In this conversation, Ari and I explore how the power of our beliefs show up in virtually every one of our daily actions. We examine how to begin looking at what isn’t working and how to start examining our beliefs. When those beliefs aren’t working, Ari shares several, critical steps we can take to begin to change our thinking.
Key Points

Our beliefs, many of which we may not be consciously aware of, are often calling the shots in our daily actions and behaviors.
Start examining a belief by picking a current problem to address.
Listen carefully to your internal voices to identify the language showing up. Notice places especially where you frame things as facts, certitudes, thoughts, theories, norms, shoulds, and should nots.
Examine how you came to the beliefs that you uncover. Then, confront your cannons.
Change now, find facts later. Most people do that the opposite way.

Resources Mentioned

A Lapsed Anarchist's Approach to the Power of Beliefs in Business by Ari Weinzweig
Humility: A Humble, Anarchistic Inquiry by Ari Weinzweig
Schein On, You Crazy Diamond by Ari Weinzweig

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

The Path of Humble Leadership, with Edgar Schein and Peter Schein (episode 363)
How to Help People Engage in Growth, with Whitney Johnson (episode 576)
Help People Show Up as Themselves, with Frederic Laloux (episode 580)

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Ruth Gotian: The Success Factor
Ruth Gotian has been hailed by the journal Nature and Columbia University as an expert in mentorship and leadership development. Recently, she was named as the #1 emerging management thinker in the world by Thinkers50. She was a semi-finalist for the Forbes 50 Over 50 list and has coached and mentored hundreds of people throughout her career.

In addition to being published in academic journals, she is a contributor to Forbes and Psychology Today, where she writes about optimizing success. She is the Chief Learning Officer in Anesthesiology and former Assistant Dean of Mentoring and Executive Director of the Mentoring Academy at Weill Cornell Medicine, where she is a faculty member. She is the author of The Success Factor: Developing the Mindset and Skillset for Peak Business Performance*.

In this conversation, Ruth and I explore her research on how high achievers build their networks — and also what works for us both in our personal practices. We discuss several tactics that most leaders can use to strengthen existing networks. Plus, we examine the mindsets that tend to lead to success in professional relationships, in spite of busy schedules.
Key Points

High achievers are always seeking perspective, insight, and inspiration from people in many different career stages and disciplines.
Use the 24/7/30 rule when making new connections. Reach out within 24 hours, again in 7 days, and also at 30 days.
Almost always there is a way you can add value to another person, even if they are at the top of professional game. Find that way to help.
When you create content on social media, you emerge as one of the 1% of professionals who choose to do this.
Give without expectation of anything in return.

Resources Mentioned

The Success Factor: Developing the Mindset and Skillset for Peak Business Performance* by Ruth Gotian
How Do You Find a Decent Mentor When You’re Stuck at Home? by Ruth Gotian
Networking for Introverted Scientists by Ruth Gotian
Conversation Starters by Ruth Gotian

Related Episodes

The Power of Weak Connections, with David Burkus (episode 347)
How to Strengthen Your Network, with Marissa King (episode 425)
How to Get Noticed on LinkedIn, with Stephen Hart (episode 495)
How to Lead and Retain High Performers, with Ruth Gotian (episode 567)

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Marshall Goldsmith: The Earned Life
Marshall Goldsmith is one of the world’s leading executive coaches and the New York Times bestselling author of many books, including What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, Mojo, and Triggers. In his coaching practice, he has advised more than 150 major CEOs and their management teams, including clients like Alan Mulally, Frances Hesselbein, and Hubert Joly. His newest book is The Earned Life: Lose Regret, Choose Fulfillment*.

We’ve all heard about the benefits of empathy and most of us assume that more empathy for the people we lead is always better. In this conversation, Marshall and I look at the different types of empathy and explore the downsides of leaning into empathy too much. Plus, we discuss how singular empathy can help busy leaders stay present in the midst of their busy schedules.
Key Points

There are multiple types of empathy — and each of them bring challenges along with their positive attributes.
We often hit the reset button successfully at work, but then neglect it in our personal relationships.
Singular empathy helps us to stay present with people and to move between the multiple spaces and situations that most leaders find themselves in daily.
A key question for us all to ask ourselves: am I being the person I want to be right now?

Resources Mentioned

The Earned Life: Lose Regret, Choose Fulfillment* by Marshall Goldsmith

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

The Way to Stop Rescuing People From Their Problems, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 284)
Getting Better at Empathy, with Daniel Goleman (episode 391)
The Way to Be More Self-Aware, with Tasha Eurich (episode 442)

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Ruchika Tulshyan: Inclusion on Purpose
Ruchika Tulshyan is the founder of Candour, a global inclusion strategy firm. She is a regular contributor to The New York Times and Harvard Business Review. As a keynote speaker, Ruchika has addressed organizations like NASA, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and the United States Congress.

Ruchika is the author of The Diversity Advantage: Fixing Gender Inequality in the Workplace, and most recently, Inclusion on Purpose: An Intersectional Approach to Creating a Culture of Belonging at Work*. She is on the Thinkers50 Radar list and named as one of Hive Learning's Most Influential D&I Professionals for the past two years.

In this conversation, Ruchika and I discuss how leaders can adapt their hiring practices to attract more diverse candidates — and ultimately support inclusion inside their organizations. We discuss the importance of what to both include and avoid in job postings. Plus, we examine how well-intended interview practices can sometimes have unintended results on supporting diversity and inclusion.
Key Points

Make the hiring process transparent from start to finish.
Include an authentic equal opportunity statement.
Refrain from using certain words in job listings. Examples include: rockstar, ninja, hacker, guru, manage, build, aggressive, fearless, independent, analytic, and assertive.
Emphasize skills and experience over professional degrees.
Avoid panel interviews and refrain from asking questions or having conversations about culture fit.

Resources Mentioned

Inclusion on Purpose: An Intersectional Approach to Creating a Culture of Belonging at Work* by Ruchika Tulshyan

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Get the Ideal Team Player, with Patrick Lencioni (episode 301)
How to Be More Inclusive, with Stefanie Johnson (episode 508)
Start Finding Overlooked Talent, with Johnny Taylor, Jr. (episode 544)

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David Gergen: Hearts Touched With Fire
David Gergen has served as a White House adviser to four US presidents of both political parties: Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton. He then served as the editor of US News & World Report. For the past two decades, he has served as a professor of public service and founding director of the Center for Public Leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School.

David is also a senior political analyst for CNN, where he is a respected voice in national and international affairs. He is the author of Hearts Touched with Fire: How Great Leaders Are Made*.

In this conversation, David and I discuss his years working in the White House for four different presidents. We explore what worked for David to be able to support a powerful person in being the best version of themselves. Plus, we discuss how to speak truth to power, the strategy of playing to strengths, and the critical importance of staying aligned with the big picture.
Key Points

Speaking up means you ensure that your manager has considered alternate perspectives.
Be aware of your own shortcomings so you do not bias your own advice.
You made need to help a manager overcome their own challenges. Help them play to their strengths.
Beware of managing up with arrogance. Instead, create zones and pathways that can help a manager make tough calls.
Making a suggestion in a short note can be one way to open up a tough conversation.
Keep the bigger, nobler motive in mind at all times. Advocate for that larger vision.

Resources Mentioned

Hearts Touched with Fire: How Great Leaders Are Made* by David Gergen
The Bin Laden Raid: Inside the Situation Room Photo

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Start Managing Up, with Tom Henschel (episode 433)
Leadership in the Midst of Chaos, with Jim Mattis (episode 440)
How to be Diplomatic, with Susan Rice (episode 456)
Your Leadership Motive, with Patrick Lencioni (episode 505)

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Bonni Stachowiak: Teaching in Higher Ed
Bonni is the host of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Dean of Teaching and Learning and Professor of Business and Management at Vanguard University, and my life partner. Prior to her academic career, she was a human resources consultant and executive officer for a publicly traded company. Bonni is the author of The Productive Online and Offline Professor: A Practical Guide*.
Listener Questions

Margaret is wondering what resources we’d recommend for her team to identify different communication styles.
Jeff asked us what steps we might take to help someone increase their confidence.
Christopher mentioned a prior episode and is seeking our advice on what to do when challenging authority is ignored.

Resources Mentioned

GO Team Resources by Susan Gerke and David Hutchens
Creative Acts for Curious People* by Sarah Stein Greenberg
Emergent Strategy* by adrienne maree brown
StrengthsFinder
Dignity: Its Essential Role in Resolving Conflict* by Donna Hicks

Related Episodes

How Teams Use StrengthsFinder Results, with Lisa Cummings (episode 293)
How to Lead an Offsite, with Tom Henschel (episode 377)
End Imposter Syndrome in Your Organization, with Jodi-Ann Burey (episode 556)
The Way to Make Struggles More Productive, with Sarah Stein Greenberg (episode 569)

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Eric Pliner: Difficult Decisions
Eric Pliner is chief executive officer of YSC Consulting. He has designed and implemented leadership strategy in partnership with some of the world’s best-known CEOs and organizations. Eric’s writing has been featured in Harvard Business Review, Fortune, Forbes, and Fast Company.

A member of the Dramatists’ Guild of America, Eric is co-author of the U.S. National Standards for Health Education and Spooky Dog & the Teen-Age Gang Mysteries (with Amy Rhodes), an Off-Broadway theatrical parody of television cartoons for adults. He is a board director with Hip Hop Public Health. He is also the author of Difficult Decisions: How Leaders Make the Right Call with Insight, Integrity, and Empathy*.

In this conversation, Eric and I discuss the difficult and sometimes awkward moments when we engage other stakeholders in our decisions. We explore the language to use when discussing a stakeholder’s role in a decision. Plus, Eric details how to establish clear expectations about involvement in decisions to avoid sending messages that we otherwise don’t intend.
Key Points

Clarify who you will engage and how you intend to do so.
Before discussing a decision with a stakeholder, explain how the decision is going to be made. Make it clear if you’re offering them a views, a voice, a vote, or a veto.
Standardize your individual and team processes for decision-making.
Ask the stakeholder for input — and go deeper with a second or third question to appreciate what’s behind what they’ve said.
Remind stakeholders how the decision will be made when you conclude. Don’t underestimated the importance of this step.

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Influence Many Stakeholders, with Andy Kaufman (episode 240)
How to Deal with Opponents and Adversaries, with Peter Block (episode 328)
The Way to Make Better Decisions, with Annie Duke (episode 499)
Handling a Difficult Stakeholder, with Nick Timiraos (episode 581)

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Scott Keller: CEO Excellence
Scott is a senior partner in McKinsey’s Southern California office. He co-leads the firm’s global CEO Excellence service line and is the author of six books, including the bestseller Beyond Performance. Scott spent his early consulting years working on business strategy and operational topics until his life was turned upside down when his second child was born with profound special needs.

After taking time off to attend to his family, Scott returned to McKinsey with the desire to bring the best of psychology, social science, and the study of human potential into the workplace. He is a cofounder of Digital Divide Data and one of a few hundred people in history known to have traveled to every country in the world. His most recent book written with Carolyn Dewar and Vikram Malhotra is titled CEO Excellence: The Six Mindsets That Distinguish the Best Leaders from the Rest*.

In this conversation, Scott and I examine McKinsey’s research on what the top CEOs do (and avoid) when building great teams. We look at a few of the key mindsets that the best CEOs bring to their organizations — and how teamwork plays into this. Plus, we explore some of the key questions top leaders should ask when determining if it’s time to exit someone from the team.
Key Points

Top leaders staff for both aptitude and attitude. The have an eye to both the short and long term.
The most successful CEOs have a mindset of “first team” and expect leaders in the organization to prioritize serving the whole team/organization over any functional area.
New CEOs are often known for acting quickly on staffing, but the most successful leaders also temper this with fairness. They use the four questions below to act with both fairness and speed.
Top leaders stay connected with people throughout the organization, but also keep some distance. There’s a key distinction between being friendly and making friends.

The best CEO’s ensure that they have positively addressed all four questions below before removing somebody:

Does the team member know exactly what’s expected of them: i.e., what the agenda is and what jobs need to be done to drive that agenda?
Have they been given the needed tools and resources, and a chance to build the necessary skills and confidence to use them effectively?
Are they surrounded by others (including the CEO) who are aligned on a common direction and who display the desired mindsets and behaviors?
Is it clear what the consequences are if they don’t get on board and deliver?

Resources Mentioned

CEO Excellence: The Six Mindsets That Distinguish the Best Leaders from the Rest* by Carolyn Dewar, Scott Keller, and Vikram Malhotra
The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate - Discoveries from a Secret World* by Peter Wohlleben

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Create Team Guidelines, with Susan Gerke (episode 192)
How to Sell Your Vision, with Michael Hyatt (episode 482)
Your Leadership Motive, with Patrick Lencioni (episode 505)

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Susan MacKenty Brady: Arrive and Thrive
Susan MacKenty Brady is the Deloitte Ellen Gabriel Chair for Women and Leadership at Simmons University and the first Chief Executive Officer of The Simmons University Institute for Inclusive Leadership. As a relationship expert, leadership wellbeing coach, author, and speaker, Susan educates leaders and executives globally on fostering self-awareness for optimal leadership.

Susan advises executive teams on how to work together effectively and create inclusion and gender parity in organizations. She is the coauthor, along with Janet Foutty and Lynn Perry Wooten, of The Wall Street Journal bestselling book, Arrive and Thrive: 7 Impactful Practices for Women Navigating Leadership*.

In this conversation, Susan and I discuss the reality that while we may intend well on inclusion, real change starts with us first. We explore how implicit bias assessments can be useful in discovering where they bias is that we don’t see in ourselves. Plus, we examine some of the key actions we can take on relationship building and repair in order to get better.
Key Points

Most of us intend well, but we often miss the opportunity to move from being an ally (alignment) to being an upstander (taking action in the moment).
Utilizing an assessment can help us understand where our implicit biases diverge from our conscious thoughts.
Curiosity and relationship-building isn’t just for the moment — it’s the before, during, and after of conversations to discover how we get better.
When we make a misstep, move quickly and purposefully to repair the relationship.

Resources Mentioned

Arrive and Thrive: 7 Impactful Practices for Women Navigating Leadership* by Susan MacKenty Brady, Janet Foutty, and Lynn Perry Wooten
The Inclusive Leader's Playbook by Susan MacKenty Brady, Elisa van Dam, and Loe Lee
Project Implicit: Implicit Association Tests

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

What You Gain By Sponsoring People, with Julia Taylor Kennedy (episode 398)
How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404)
How to Be More Inclusive, with Stefanie Johnson (episode 508)
How to Reduce Bias in Feedback, with Therese Huston (episode 510)

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Russ Laraway: When They Win, You Win
Russ has had a diverse 28 year operational management career. He was a Company Commander in the Marine Corps before starting his first company, Pathfinders. From there, Russ went to the Wharton School, and then onto management roles at Google and Twitter. He then co-founded Candor, Inc., along with best selling author and past guest Kim Scott.

Over the last several years, Russ served as the Chief People Officer at Qualtrics, and is now the Chief People Officer for the fast-growing venture capital firm, Goodwater Capital, where he is helping Goodwater and its portfolio companies to empower their people to do great work and be totally psyched while doing it. He's the author of the book When They Win, You Win: Being a Great Manager Is Simpler Than You Think*.

It’s the job of every leader to give feedback. In this episode, Russ and I discuss what to say and what to avoid when giving feedback. Plus, we explore how to think about truth and the most effective ways to start and close feedback conversations in order to help everybody move forward.
Key Points

Avoid spending too much time talking about the impending conversation and just have the conversation.
Use language like this: “I think I’m seeing some behavior that I believe is getting in your way. Are you in a spot where you can hear that right now?”
Use the framework of situation, behavior/work, and impact in order to organize your feedback.
Invite dialogue by asking: “What are your thoughts about that?”
Avoid framing feedback discussions around “the truth” — there are always multiple truths in every discussion like this. You are offering them what you see.

Resources Mentioned

When They Win, You Win: Being a Great Manager Is Simpler Than You Think* by Russ Laraway
When They Win, You Win website

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

Three Steps to Soliciting Feedback, with Tom Henschel (episode 107)
Three Steps to Great Career Conversations, with Russ Laraway (episode 370)
How to Balance Care and Accountability When Leading Remotely, with Jonathan Raymond (episode 464)
How to Reduce Bias in Feedback, with Therese Huston (episode 510)

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Mollie West Duffy: Big Feelings
Mollie West Duffy is an expert in organizational design, development, and leadership coaching. She previously was an organizational design lead at global innovation firm IDEO. She’s helped advise and coach leaders and founders at companies including Casper, Google, LinkedIn, Bungalow, and Slack. She’s experienced in designing talent processes and systems, as well as organizational structures and behaviors, cultural values, and learning and development programs.

She's written for Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Entrepreneur, Quartz, and other digital outlets. She co-founded the Capital Good Fund, Rhode Island's first microfinance fund. She is the co-author with Liz Fosslien of the Wall Street Journal bestseller No Hard Feelings: The Secret Power of Embracing Emotions at Work and now their second book Big Feelings: How To Be Okay When Things Are Not Okay*.

We’ve all heard the well-intended advice that we should not compare ourselves to others. In this conversation, Mollie and I explore why that's almost impossible to do and how we can cooperate a bit more with the inevitable and make our comparisons more useful. We highlight some of the key ways that comparison can help us and where leaning in may actually be useful in your own happiness and development.
Key Points

It’s a myth that the less you compare yourself to others, the better. Often, the opposite is true: we don’t compare ourselves enough.
We tend to compare our weaknesses to other people's strengths. Finding ways to curate our inputs is often much more useful.
Shifting from malicious envy to benign envy is helpful. Thoughts such as “I’m inspired by what they’ve done…” or “I haven’t done what they’ve done…yet,” can move us to a healthier place.
We see the best of people on social media. It’s helpful to piece together the missing footage by comparing some of the nitty gritty.
Compare present you against past you.

Resources Mentioned

Big Feelings: How To Be Okay When Things Are Not Okay* by Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy
How to Manage Your Anger at Work by Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

Four Steps to Get Unstuck and Embrace Change, with Susan David (episode 297)
What to Do With Your Feelings, with Lori Gottlieb (episode 438)
How to Reduce Burnout, with Jennifer Moss (episode 561)

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Nick Timiraos: Trillion Dollar Triage
Nick Timiraos has been the chief economics correspondent at The Wall Street Journal since 2017, where he is responsible for covering the Federal Reserve and other major developments in U.S. economic policy. He joined the Journal in 2006 and previously covered the 2008 presidential election.

He wrote about U.S. housing markets and the mortgage industry as a reporter based in New York. His coverage included the government’s response to the foreclosure crisis and the takeover of finance companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Nick is the author of Trillion Dollar Triage: How Jay Powell and the Fed Battled a President and a Pandemic -- and Prevented Economic Disaster*.
Key Points
Some of Federal Reserve Chair Jerome “Jay” Powell’s core skills have helped him navigate difficult stakeholders:

He’s highly regarded as a good listener with excellent emotional intelligence.
He’s intentional about creating strong teams and espoused the value of teamwork regularly.
He is mindful of daily events, but is always playing the long game.
He speaks in plain language that makes sense to many people, regardless of their education level.

Specifically, four unwritten rules of dealing with a difficult stakeholder like Donald Trump emerged in Nick’s analysis of Jay Powell’s public appearances:

Don’t talk about Trump.
When provoked, don’t return fire.
Stick to the economy, not politics.
Develop allies outside the Oval Office.

Resources Mentioned

Trillion Dollar Triage: How Jay Powell and the Fed Battled a President and a Pandemic -- and Prevented Economic Disaster* by Nick Timiraos
Nick Timiraos website

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

How to Listen When Someone Is Venting, with Mark Goulston (episode 91)
How to Handle a Boss Who’s a Jerk, with Tom Henschel (episode 164)
The Way Out of Major Conflict, with Amanda Ripley (episode 529)

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Frederic Laloux: Reinventing Organizations
Frederic is the author of Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness*. The book is a global word-of-mouth bestseller with over 850,000 copies sold in 20 languages. Frederic’s work has inspired the founders of Extinction Rebellion, the Sunrise Movement, and Project Drawdown, as well as countless corporate leaders and faith movements. In a past life, he was an associate principal with McKinsey & Company. He's also the creator of the Insights for the Journey video series.

In this conversation, Frederic and I explore a place where almost every leader can have a meaningful impact: helping people show up as their whole selves. We discuss how critical it is for leaders to lead the way in doing this — and how storytelling can be an important entry point. We look at some of the practical actions leaders can take to enter into a place of wholeness, including elevating beyond content, using everyday language, and integrating with the work at hand.
Key Points

As a leader, wholeness begins with you. Exploring wholeness yourself sets the stage for everyone else to be able to engage more fully.
Rather than talking lots about wholeness, it’s often helpful just to begin modeling it. When you do, everyday language us useful to help others engage.
Your personal history, the history of the organization, and the organization’s purpose are often helpful stories to share that open up a space for wholeness.
You can turn any conversation into a moment of wholeness. One invitation for leaders is to stop talking about content and elevate the dialogue to “what’s happening” overall.
Resist any temptation to disconnect wholeness from the work at hand. Bringing these together helps people to show up at work more authentically.

Resources Mentioned

Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness* by Frederic Laloux
Reinventing Organizations: An Illustrated Invitation to Join the Conversation on Next-Stage Organizations* by Frederic Laloux
Insights for the Journey video series by Frederic Laloux

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

The Way to Stay Grounded, with Parker Palmer (episode 378)
How to Be More Inclusive, with Stefanie Johnson (episode 508)
The Path Towards Trusting Relationships, with Edgar Schein and Peter Schein (episode 539)
End Imposter Syndrome in Your Organization, with Jodi-Ann Burey (episode 556)

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