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Road Cycling Academy Podcast
Interviews with top performing cyclists and industry experts in the fields of coaching, advanced training techniques, and human physiology. The purpose of this podcast is to learn and understand what makes high performing individuals tick, digging deep into their ingredients to success both on and off the bike.
- 104 - Does Riding Harder in Zone 2 Make You Faster? (Latest Research)
Summary:
Does riding at the top of Zone 2 give you a better training effect, or are you simply creating more fatigue?
It's tempting to treat Zone 2 like every other part of cycling training: if 60% of FTP is good, surely 70% or 75% must be better. But recent endurance research discussed in this episode suggests that may not be the case.
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, Cam Nicholls is joined by RCA head coach Ryan Thomas to discuss 2026 research comparing endurance athletes training around their first ventilatory threshold with athletes completing their easier sessions at a lower intensity.
Both groups improved performance, with no statistically significant difference in improvements between them. The important difference was fatigue: the athletes training closer to their first ventilatory threshold experienced greater fatigue.
Cam and Ryan discuss what that could mean for cyclists and why constantly pushing towards the top of Zone 2 may create unnecessary training load without providing a corresponding performance benefit.
They also explain why Zone 2 shouldn't be defined by power alone. While 55% to 75% of threshold provides a broad practical range, Ryan explains why perceived exertion, recovery and how you feel on a particular day should influence where you ride within that range.
For many recreational cyclists, that might mean being perfectly comfortable riding at 55% or 60% of threshold rather than constantly chasing 70% to 75%.
In this episode:
What Zone 2 means from a physiological perspective Using the first lactate or ventilatory threshold to define Zone 2 The practical 55% to 75% of threshold power range How often recreational cyclists should include Zone 2 training Why Zone 2 should remain part of a structured cycling program How short periods above Zone 2 can change the stimulus of an endurance ride What the 2026 endurance study compared Training at VT1 versus 10% to 15% below VT1 Why VT1 doesn't occur at exactly the same percentage for every athlete Why riding at 75% of threshold feels very different from riding at 60% The performance results between the two training groups Why the higher-intensity group accumulated greater fatigue When riding at the top of Zone 2 could be treated as a specific workout Why Ryan generally prescribes a 60% to 70% range for Zone 2 rides How RPE can help determine the appropriate intensity on a given day Why riding at 55% of threshold can still be completely appropriate Using easier endurance rides to recover between high-intensity sessions Why consistently chasing the top of a training zone may not be necessary How the same principle could potentially apply to tempo and VO2 training Why years of consistent training matter more than pushing a single workout harderThe practical message isn't that riding at the top of Zone 2 is always wrong. It's that you don't necessarily need to chase the upper limit on every endurance ride. If riding a little easier produces the required training stimulus while allowing you to recover better for your harder sessions, there may be little reason to push harder simply because you can.
Road Cycling Academy helps recreational and amateur cyclists train smarter, improve their performance and get more from the limited training time they have available.
If you're unsure why your cycling performance has plateaued or where the biggest opportunities are in your current training, RCA's Performance Breakthrough Call can help identify potential weaknesses and areas to focus on.
#RoadCycling #Zone2 #Zone2Training #CyclingTraining #EnduranceTraining #CyclingPerformance #CyclingCoach #TrainingScience #RoadCyclingAcademy #RyanThomas
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (0:01) Welcome to the RCA podcast designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mate's legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas. And today we're going to talk about some 2026 research, Ryan, in endurance sports, but not cycling, it's running.
Not all the good papers are in cycling, unfortunately. And the question we're going to answer is, does riding harder in zone two make you faster? And it's pretty tempting when you're riding in zone two, just to go right to the top of, if you're talking about FTPs, you know, 75% of FTP and just ride there all day long because it's at the top.
But what we'll find out here is it's not necessarily the most optimal.
Ryan Thomas (1:05) Yeah. Honestly, it's probably one of the most common things I see when we get a new athlete or you talk to someone, it's like, I really want to, it's just the nature of trying to improve is you think you need to push the, like push the limits a little bit. Most of the time, try and push the limits, but it's actually not the case in this.
And there's good reasons for it, but it's kind of against what most people think. I think a lot of experienced riders and professional athletes understand why this is the case, but yeah, it's definitely not a ride harder to get stronger scenario.
Cam Nicholls (1:39) Okay. So before we go dig into the research, let's just talk about what is zone two first, because everyone seems to have different views of it. In fact, in the performance breakthrough call I have with people before they joined the RCA, I often ask them, I'm doing zone two, what's zone two to you?
And often you get very different answers. So let's just, for the purpose of this video, set the expectation from a scientific point of view, what's zone two?
Ryan Thomas (2:05) Under your lactate or ventillary threshold one. So the first turn point in your internal physiology.
Cam Nicholls (2:14) Okay. And then from a practical standpoint, so we've got heart rate and we've got power. Let's talk about power because it's the one we typically use the most.
What is zone two from a power or FTP perspective?
Ryan Thomas (2:30) Yeah. 55 to 75% of your threshold marker, which is a massive range, right? 20% of any sort of power range is just quite large.
So hence the question.
Cam Nicholls (2:41) Yeah. So before we get to the research and we talk about riding in zone two, I also want to ask you how often should recreational riders be riding in zone two? Because once again, this is having these performance breakthrough calls with people.
I'm finding out some people are riding two or three times a week. It's actually a lot of people just ride two or three times a week. And some people are riding five or six times a week.
And then some people are riding differently in winter than they are in summer. Like for example, one guy recently said to me, I do a lot of zone two in winter and then when it gets to summer, I don't do any zone two. So my view is from the research and from our coaching and this can get your, your input here is zone two.
It should be a mainstay really in any program for cycling.
Ryan Thomas (3:22) Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah.
Oh, it comes down to how many times you ride per week. But if you're most people are riding four to six times a week, if you're riding under that, then yeah, it kind of moves the ballpark a little bit. But if you're riding three to five times a week, probably yeah, two to three times in zone two, less than that, maybe take one out and do two instead of three.
But it's, yeah, you need, it needs to be there. It's a long-term progression. It's used for many different reasons, but you can't just take it out, expect that it's going to be filled with something else.
Yes.
Cam Nicholls (3:56) Yeah. I have a three ride rule kind of, but it's a bit of a blanket, but if you're doing any more than three rides per week, you should definitely be doing at least one, maybe two zone two rides in your week to split up the intensity and also keep the cycling adaptations moving forward without putting too much physiological stress on yourself. And even for people that say, oh, I'm just riding three times a week.
I say, well, can you ride more? And often they're like, oh, I'm not sure. What if you just did one half hour ride per week on the trainer at zone two, but that by the end of the month, you've done two hours of additional aerobic training you wouldn't have already done.
Times out by three months, you've done six hours. It all adds up. When you look at the data and you're looking at zone two and you're looking at recreationals riding in zone two, what are you typically saying?
Maybe when they first start working with RCA and then obviously we'll talk about what happens after, but initially what are they doing?
Ryan Thomas (4:44) Yeah. It's generally not dedicated zone two. So they think it's zone two or endurance.
It feels easy, but usually accumulating a lot of intensity in there, but yeah, once to twice a week, maybe if they're riding five, five, six times a week, they might be doing an easy zone two ride. And most of the time it's the actual ride itself.
Cam Nicholls (5:05) What they think is zone two is not. Okay. So they're pushing like beyond or above that 75%.
Maybe spending more time in tempo, which is zone three. So 80, 85% of FTP.
Ryan Thomas (5:16) Yeah. And it's just micro accumulation, like on a short 30 second climb, they might go to VO2 or anaerobic, but if you do an hour and a half, two hour ride and you do that 20 times, there's 10 minutes in anaerobic zone that you have changed the stimulus completely.
Cam Nicholls (5:31) Yes. Yep. Okay.
So what does the research say then?
Ryan Thomas (5:35) Yeah. So this paper was quite interesting. It's super recent, like Cam said before, it's 2026 runners.
What they did was they got people to do two to three intensity sessions per week. So they were normalized across the groups. Then the other runs that they were doing during the week, either at VT1, so the Ventilatory Threshold 1, like right at it.
Cam Nicholls (6:00) Right at it, which in the equivalent of percentage of FTP would be, even though it's an estimate and it's not scientific, that would be 75% of FTP.
Ryan Thomas (6:08) Usually the top end of zone two. Yeah. And I did a trend about this recently and there's the evidence for where VT1 actually sits in your threshold and- It's variable.
What type you are. It could be 50%, it could be 80%. So it's very variable while we're taking the research from what it is.
VT1 will say it's the top of zone two because that's usually where it sits. They were running at that top of zone two in their easy zone two days. That's what they were doing.
The other group were doing 10 to 15% under that VT1. So as a relative term and threshold, so VT1, they're riding at 75%. The other group's riding at 60% or 65% of threshold, which you will anyone listening to this or watching is you're riding at 75% feels a whole lot harder than riding at 60% of threshold.
They're very different sensations. But yeah, I thought it was super interesting. It's so applicable to the everyday cyclists and what actually happens if you are riding it.
Cam Nicholls (7:06) This podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. Corey increases FTP by 31 watts, Trin by 24 watts, Nicholas by 14 watts, and Steve, he reduces heart rate by nine beats per minute riding zone two on his regular 100-kilometer loop. What do all these riders have in common?
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So the result was both groups improved running performance and neuromuscular measures with no statistically significant differences in improvements between groups. So by riding at your top of your zone two, it doesn't make a difference.
Ryan Thomas (8:45) Yeah. No. Well, theoretically, yeah, there's no performance benefit.
Cam Nicholls (8:49) Except for fatigue in the training load. So it adds additional fatigue.
Ryan Thomas (8:54) Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (8:54) So one could therefore speculate or argue that you do this sustained over many weeks, many months, and you're constantly riding at the top end of zone two. And there's more of a physiological cost in doing that, but no physiological benefit as such. So there's more of a likelihood you're going to burn out faster.
Ryan Thomas (9:16) 100%. Yeah. And that was the main takeaway for me.
Like riding at top end zone two, as a coach, how I look at this and how you should look at it as a recreational athlete is if you want to ride at top of zone two, do it specifically, do it as an interval session. So riding at top of zone two, the research shows it's more fatiguing. There's not much performance benefit, but it does, they looked at pure performance.
There might be underlying physiological benefits for lifting that VT1 slightly, but you need to treat it as an interval session. It's a hard workout because it's focused. It's adding fatigue.
The research shows it adds a cumulative fatigue. One session isn't going to change the fatigue levels. It's over many, many weeks.
If you're doing high zone two all the time, it's massive fatigue. It just adds and adds and adds. Yes.
In the paper though, essentially the RPE rating and the fatigue levels and the markers of fatigue that they looked at was much higher in that VT1 group versus low zone two group.
Cam Nicholls (10:18) Yes. So practical applications, I go back to my early days as a cycling coach and I was guilty of suggesting 70% of FTP. The reason, and my reasoning wasn't scientific, it was all based off of speaking with recreationals and the practicality of it is if you don't have, if somebody comes or steps into structured training and they lean into zone two and they start doing zone two and they haven't done it before and they're used to riding at kind of a higher intensity most rides, asking them to go to 60% of FTP for a zone two may be very challenging for them because it's going to not feel like they're doing much and therefore they may not stick with it.
So my theory was, or my thought process was always, well, 70% is at the top end. You might feel a little bit more like you're doing something and if you feel like you're doing something, then you may be more likely to stick with it. So let's do 70% of FTP.
No scientific basis, but I felt practical. What are your thoughts on that? And how do we look at something like that scenario and then factor in this research paper?
Ryan Thomas (11:22) Yeah. So if I'm going to schedule a zone two ride, it's usually 60 to 70%. Like a very big zone two is usually 60 to 70.
If you're in the trainer, that's going to pluck you in at 65, which is right in the ballpark. If you're riding outdoors and you've got a 10% window to ride at, and the reason I like giving a window is some days you feel good. Some days the heart rate will be lower.
The RPE is lower. You can ride at 70% and that's completely fine. It might feel easy.
Other days, 60% might feel like 70%. So it is really important that the middle of that zone isn't always the right area to be, or 70% or 60%. There's always a window there that you need to adjust as an athlete and trust your instincts and trust how you feel because at the end of the day, RPE is sitting over here that you need to consider as well.
It's not just threshold. It's not just power. It's how does it actually feel to you?
There's a lot of people who will go out and, oh yeah, it feels hard or it feels too easy or either one, but zone two for me is yes, we're getting aerobic stimulus, but it's also about breaking up and giving you recovery for those high intensity days. So I would prefer those zone two days to be easier than harder, like go to 55%. That's fine.
If I see a training ride and someone's ridden at 55% for 65 and that doesn't bother me whatsoever. I would prefer you to be easier than harder because the harder we know from research and watching many people do these rides week in, week out, and when we see these people come from performance breakage calls, it's yeah, when you take that intensity or that little bit of higher riding out, then usually you see some pretty good adaptation because they recover.
Cam Nicholls (12:59) Yep.
Ryan Thomas (13:00) Yep. Okay, good.
Cam Nicholls (13:01) Well, I guess the key takeaway then is like if people are incorporating zone two and they take that rate of perceived exertion into account, it doesn't matter if you're doing less at in zone two, you'll still get the same adaptations. So do it. Don't get anxious or don't be concerned that you're not at 70% because according to this research, you're going to get the same result.
Ryan Thomas (13:22) Yeah. Yeah. And I just a little side note is I think this, this research can, you could almost take this across the majority of the zones.
So riding in tempo, for example, doing a 80 to 90% threshold effort. Why ride at 90%? Like the adaptation is probably going to be pretty similar.
So get the same adaptation, a little bit less fatigue and just stack the workouts. Same with VO2. You can apply this to majority of the zones.
And I know there's a lot of professional athletes out there and there's a lot of people that do that type, do that, apply that across their zones so that the consistency is the big part. It's not the one session doesn't make you a great athlete. It's years of consistent work.
Cam Nicholls (14:03) Yep.
Ryan Thomas (14:03) Cool. All right. Thanks for your time, Ryan.
Cam Nicholls (14:05) If you're out there listening and you're getting value out of that and maybe you're actually stuck on a performance plateau right now and you're a little bit confused about why that's the case, at the RCA, we've got a three minute quiz, 12 questions. We'll send you a bespoke report after the quiz. We'll link to that below and we'll catch you in the next podcast.
Tue, 03 Nov 2026 - 14min - 103 - New Shimano Dura-Ace Pedals: A Bike Fitter's Verdict
Summary: Shimano has introduced a new Dura-Ace pedal system with a lower stack height, reduced weight and a redesigned cleat. But has improving one part of the system created a bike fitting problem somewhere else?
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, Cam Nicholls is joined by expert bike fitter Neill Stanbury to take a close look at Shimano's new SPD-SLR pedal and cleat system.
Neill explains why the approximately 2.3 mm reduction in stack height is a positive change, bringing the rider's foot closer to the pedal axle and potentially creating a more direct feel at the pedal. The complete system is also slightly lighter than its predecessor.
But there's an important trade-off.
While the new cleat retains some lateral adjustment, Neill measures only around 2 mm of fore-and-aft adjustment compared with approximately 12 mm on the previous system. When he compares the rearward cleat positions, he estimates the new SPD-SLR cleat sits roughly 8 mm further forward on the shoe.
That's particularly relevant for cyclists who prefer a more rearward cleat position or require greater adjustment as part of their bike fit.
Neill explains how Shimano's own shoes partly address the issue through a sliding captive plate inside the shoe, shifting some of the adjustment that previously existed at the cleat into the shoe itself. That leads to a broader discussion about shoe compatibility, Q-factor, stance width and why a few millimetres of adjustment can matter considerably for some riders.
Cam and Neill also discuss what they'd like Shimano to do next, including offering different pedal spindle lengths to give cyclists and bike fitters significantly more control over Q-factor.
Neill's final verdict? There are some genuine improvements, particularly the lower stack height, but the reduction in fore-and-aft cleat adjustment prevents the new system from getting his full approval.
In this episode: What's changed with Shimano's new Dura-Ace pedal system Why Shimano may have redesigned its pedal and cleat system The difference between SPD-SL and the new SPD-SLR system Why a lower pedal stack height can be beneficial The approximately 2.3 mm reduction in stack height Why the new pedal and cleat system is slightly lighter Why the new cleats aren't backwards compatible with the previous pedals Lateral cleat adjustment and its relationship with Q-factor Why small changes in stance width can matter for some cyclists Using adapters and the effect they have on stack height Why Neill is concerned about reduced fore-and-aft cleat adjustment How much fore-and-aft adjustment the previous cleat offered Why more rearward cleat positions can be useful in bike fitting How removing the captive washer helped Shimano reduce stack height Why the new cleat may sit further forward than the previous system How Shimano shoes use a sliding captive plate for additional adjustment What the new pedal system means for cyclists using other shoe brands Neill's idea for interchangeable Shimano pedal spindle lengths How different spindle lengths could improve Q-factor adjustment Neill's overall verdict on the new Dura-Ace pedalsThe new Shimano system brings genuine improvements in stack height and weight, but cyclists shouldn't look at those changes in isolation. Cleat position, shoe compatibility, Q-factor and the amount of adjustment you personally require can all influence whether the new system is a good fit for you.
Road Cycling Academy helps recreational and amateur cyclists train smarter, improve their performance and get more from the limited training time they have available.
If you're unsure about your cleat position or want to better understand your overall position on the bike, RCA's Bike Fit Fundamentals provides a step-by-step approach to understanding and improving your bike setup.
#RoadCycling #ShimanoDuraAce #Shimano #BikeFit #CyclingPedals #CleatPosition #CyclingTips #CyclingPerformance #RoadCyclingAcademy #NeilStanbury
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01) Welcome to the RCA podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by expert bike fitter Neil Stanbury. And today, Neill, we're in a new studio.
Our podcast listeners won't know that, but our YouTube watchers will. And I think we might've gone a bit too professional. This one is very serious, mate.
Neill Stanbury (00:43) Yeah. It's pretty fancy, isn't it? Better than the dungeon in my house that we've been using for years.
Cam Nicholls (00:43) Yes.
Neill Stanbury (00:43) Or the dungeon where my clinic is located.
Cam Nicholls (00:43) Yeah, exactly.
Neill Stanbury (00:43) It's very upmarket. I like it. I hope it lends some, like, an air of credibility to our deliberations, but probably not.
Let us know what you think below.
Cam Nicholls (00:59) But today we're going to talk about the new Shimano Dura-Ace pedals, which has a funny story behind it because you said to me, "I want to do a video on the new pedals, but I can't get my hands on any."
And I said, "Well, buy some and then you can sell them to somebody in your clinic."
And you said, "I'm not going to sell these to anyone in my clinic."
Sure. I'm going to be able to sell these, but maybe we could give them away.
Okay. Maybe we could give them away to a viewer.
All right. So you're going to bag them and then we're going to give them away.
This will be the first time in internet history.
Neill Stanbury (01:28) It is quite possible. There'll be some subtle criticism directed at Shimano headquarters here from me, but you've come to expect that from me, viewers. So, you know, this is nothing too new, I guess.
Cam Nicholls (01:37) Okay. So just before you go, we will give them away. If somebody wants to go into the giveaway, and we'll chuck in an RCA cap to sweeten the deal, we'll put a link below and we'll give them away at Christmas time to a lucky viewer.
Neill Stanbury (01:48) Very nice. And these are the Dura-Ace ones. So these are the top-shelf ones.
These have come express. These have just come into Australia. We could barely get them.
You know, it was a real struggle to get them. I couldn't buy a set of cleats individually. Could only buy the pedal system at the moment, and there's no Ultegra and no 105 as yet.
So these are hot off the press. First new Shimano pedal system in 30-odd years or something like that. Kind of exciting.
I was excited when I saw them come out until I saw the cleat.
Cam Nicholls (02:15) Okay. So let me explain. Neil? I think it's interesting though.
Why did Shimano decide after 30 years to change the pedal system? Because from what I understand, their patent ran out in 2022, a whole bunch of clones come into the market, taking their market share, and all of a sudden they decide after many decades, "Oh, we should create a new pedal system."
Neill Stanbury (02:35) It is quite possible that that was part of the deliberations. Yeah. Like, I won't speculate, but it's a good observation and it could have something to do with that.
The other part of it could be to nudge people more towards the Shimano ecosystem, particularly of their shoes, which we'll talk about in a second as to why that is important.
But yeah, let's give you a bit of a rundown on how these differ from your traditional SPD. So these are called the SPD-SLR.
They have a lower stack height, which is the big thing. They're 2.3 millimetres or so lower stack height, and Shimano has basically done that by thinning out the cleat.
Now, I'm not sure if your viewers will be able to see this from home, but the one on my right, your left, is an old-style SPD-SL cleat.
And on your right, my left, we've got the SPD-SLR. Very, very similar in general to look at. A little bit of a different profile and shape like this.
From the side though, it is possible to see that the cleat is essentially thinner.
The way that they've made it thinner, which lowers the stack height of the cleat.
Cam Nicholls (02:35) Which is a good thing, isn't it?
Neill Stanbury (02:35) Great thing.
Cam Nicholls (02:35) Okay.
Neill Stanbury (02:35) Yeah. 2.3 millimetres is good. I think it's getting down near Speedplay now, which is pretty good.
Cam Nicholls (02:35) Okay.
Neill Stanbury (02:35) It is good because it gives you a more direct feel of power transfer over the centre of the pedal.
So the lower it is, the lower down your foot is relative to the pedal centre, the more direct it's going to feel.
And conversely, if you've got a pedal system with a really high stack height, and I'm exaggerating slightly here, your foot is going to feel rotationally unstable.
You're going to have a lot of what we call rocking torque over the centre of axis of rotation.
So the lower that stack height is, the closer it is to the sole plate of the shoe, the thinner the sole plate of the shoe is, the thinner the orthotic is, all of that sort of stuff, the better it generally feels.
Right. So it does come with another added advantage, which is the lower it is, the lower your seat height can be.
So if someone's switching from these guys to these guys, that's right, my 2.3 millimetres of aerodynamics.
And when you're a professional, like WorldTour-level rider, like you and me, this 2.3 millimetres is a pretty big deal.
So, you know, at 60 k's an hour, which I'm regularly riding at, that aerodynamics is pretty important, mate.
Cam Nicholls (04:37) The whole pedal system is lighter as well.
Neill Stanbury (04:37) It's a little bit lighter.
Cam Nicholls (04:37) Like 10 grams.
Neill Stanbury (04:37) Yeah, 10 grams.
Cam Nicholls (04:37) Yeah, yeah. Which is important as well, if you're a good rider.
Neill Stanbury (04:37) Yes, it is.
I trimmed my fingernails last night. There's 10 grams right there.
Cam Nicholls (04:46) Yes.
Neill Stanbury (04:46) Now let's talk about the differences.
The cleat system is not backwards compatible, so you can't have an SPD-SL pedal and use an SPD-SLR cleat.
So you have to buy the new pedal with the cleat. Won't go in, won't engage properly.
So it is a full ecosystem. It's a pedal and a cleat that go together.
You've got a lower stack height, slightly less rotating mass.
You've got similar levels of lateral adjustment. So your SPD-SLs have got roughly six millimetres of side-to-side adjustment.
Your SPD-SLR has got somewhere between four and five, as far as I can measure in the real world.
Now that's better than I thought it was going to be from some of the stuff that I'd seen online.
I thought there was going to be very little lateral adjustment here, but there is a bit.
Now this is important because it moves your feet in and out, closer or further away from the bike, right?
Q-factor adjustment is, like, for me, hypercritical. I've seen people that are so sensitive to Q-factor that two or three millimetres off causes them pain.
So, you know, if you're a very sensitive rider to your Q-factor and you've got a set of SPD-SLs, for example, and the cleat is maxed out towards the inside edge of the shoe, and you've got your stance width as wide as you possibly can, these ones might not quite get you as far.
Cam Nicholls (04:46) But you can get an adapter?
Neill Stanbury (04:46) Yeah, you can use some of the three-bolt adapters, which instantly add three mil of stack height back into the system, and they don't clip in that well.
I would try and avoid the adapters if possible.
Cam Nicholls (04:46) But you're going to get less or more Q-factor potentially.
Neill Stanbury (04:46) If you're maxed out one way or the other, you might be missing out on a little bit of that adjustment.
Cam Nicholls (04:46) Okay.
Neill Stanbury (04:46) Now, my big gripe.
Those things are all okay.
Cam Nicholls (04:46) So it's just the one gripe you've got?
Neill Stanbury (04:46) I've got, it's new and it's not backwards compatible. It is lighter, which is all that sort of stuff.
My big gripe is the fore-and-aft adjustment.
Cam Nicholls (04:46) Yeah.
Neill Stanbury (04:46) The Q-factor is not too bad. The fore-and-aft adjustment is essentially almost zero.
Cam Nicholls (06:47) This podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy.
If you're struggling with a sore back, numb hands, neck pain, or simply feel uncomfortable on the bike, or worse yet, you feel like your power transfer is not optimal, our Bike Fit Fundamentals program could be exactly what you need.
Created by the world-renowned bike fitter, Neil Stanbury, Bike Fit Fundamentals is a simplified online step-by-step program that helps you understand and improve your position on the bike.
One of our RCA members recently, via a Google review, shared that for years he suffered from lower back pain and numb arms while riding.
He tried professional bike fits, different saddles, stems and countless adjustments. Sound familiar? But nothing seemed to work.
He couldn't ride for more than two hours without back pain.
After working through Bike Fit Fundamentals, he made a series of changes to his Q-factor, that's stance width, saddle position, cleat setup and his cockpit.
The result, he was able to increase his training volume from circa six hours per week to over 12 hours a week with no back pain.
What he loved most wasn't just the outcome. It was finally understanding what to change, why to change it and what he should feel like when it's done right.
If you'd like to become more comfortable, more efficient and get more out of every ride, check out Bike Fit Fundamentals on the Road Cycling Academy website with Neil Stanbury.
Now let's get back to the podcast.
So for those of you who don't know what fore-and-aft adjustment is, some may not. Just moving the cleat forwards and backwards.
Neill Stanbury (08:31) Forward and backwards.
Cam Nicholls (08:31) When you showed me what you could do in the old system, then I was like, "Whoa, okay, now I know what you're talking about."
Neill Stanbury (08:31) Yeah, so this is it, right?
It's about two or three millimetres. On your old SPD-SLRs, you've got 10 to 12, right?
Heaps of fore-and-aft adjustment, and this for me as a fitter is kind of a bit of a problem because there is a trend, or what would you call it, an understanding of cycling biomechanics, which is starting to spread through the zeitgeist, through my world, that generally speaking, more rearwards cleat positions are generally speaking good most of the time for most people.
I won't delve into why that is. I think we've done other videos on cleat positioning and midfoot cleat positioning and further backwards and all that sort of stuff, and what are the pros and cons, but having this adjustability is pretty good.
I like it. It means I can put the cleat wherever I want, and having this is a bit of a problem.
Now, how does Shimano, how are they kind of explaining this away?
What you've got, right, is you've got these recesses where the bolt centres sit, and they've removed the captive washer system, which sits typically underneath the bolts, right?
That captive washer system allows the side-to-side and the fore-and-aft, and that unfortunately adds a little bit of stack height.
So in the new system, they've removed the washers so that the flange of the screws is just bolting straight down onto the polycarbonate or whatever the cleat is made out of, some sort of nylon-reinforced plastic, right?
So you've removed the captive plates, which is how you've lowered the stack height, and that's also where the loss of weight comes from because the screws are slightly shorter.
They have slightly shorter shaft length, right? So it makes it a little bit lighter.
But in doing so, you've had to give up either fore-and-aft adjustment or lateral adjustment.
Now, I think they've probably done the right thing here. They've kept a fair bit of the lateral adjustment, but they've had to give up the fore-and-aft adjustment.
Otherwise, the flange of the screws is going to ride off the inside edge of that cleat, and it's not going to clamp down properly.
Cam Nicholls (10:29) Right.
So that four to five millimetres you referenced relative to the 12 millimetres with the original? Is it 12 millimetres?
Neill Stanbury (10:36) Side-to-side, the original is like six. This is about four.
Cam Nicholls (10:36) Yeah.
Neill Stanbury (10:36) Fore-and-aft, I would say this is probably two millimetres.
Cam Nicholls (10:44) Oh, two millimetres. And what's that one?
Neill Stanbury (10:44) About 12.
Cam Nicholls (10:44) About 12.
So do you know where that two millimetres is relative to the 12?
Neill Stanbury (10:50) Yes, actually.
Cam Nicholls (10:51) Is it lower or is it higher?
Or is it in the middle? Like, where is it?
Neill Stanbury (10:52) I've just had a look.
And essentially, when the cleats are maxed out rearwards, I'll just try and line these up.
Looking at the centreline locations, the SPD-SLR cleat is roughly eight millimetres further forward on the shoe compared to the old system.
So essentially, you're not going to be able to get the cleat back as far by around eight millimetres.
For people playing along at home, you're going to miss out on eight mil of rearwards travel.
Cam Nicholls (11:17) So for people that like the rear position or that are following the crowd at the moment with rear is better, more powerful, then somewhat of a problem.
Neill Stanbury (11:26) Somewhat of a problem.
Now, the way that Shimano have gotten around this problem, Shimano shoes have got what I call a sliding captive plate system inside the shoe where your threaded inserts are.
That sliding captive plate allows the cleat to move forwards and backwards.
And my old Lake 237s here from 15 years ago have got a little bit of this plate.
These have got around six mil of fore-and-aft travel. You might be able to make that out in the footage there.
The Shimano ones have got a fair bit more. It's around 12 millimetres.
They've elongated those slots and that allows you to move it forward, back.
Now, if you've got a shoe that's got that amount of fore-and-aft travel, this is not going to be such a big problem, right?
Unless you're looking for real extreme. Again, you're still going to miss out on eight mil of travel.
So if you've got a cleat position that's 30 or 35 millimetres behind the ball of your foot, you're going to miss out on eight mil of that no matter what, right?
But if you do have a Shimano shoe with the sliding captive plate system, you're going to have a bit of play fore-and-aft still, around 10 or 12 millimetres.
So they've removed the adjustability from the cleat and they've put it into the shoe.
Cam Nicholls (11:26) Okay.
Neill Stanbury (11:26) So works great if you're using Shimano shoes.
Cam Nicholls (11:26) Don't you have to use Shimano shoes?
Neill Stanbury (11:26) You don't have to.
These are mounted on a pair of Lakes, but you lose a huge amount of the adjustability.
Cam Nicholls (11:26) I see. Okay.
Neill Stanbury (11:26) Yes. So the cynic in me would say that perhaps this is a move to try and either nudge people towards Shimano shoes or to induce other shoe manufacturers to create more adjustable captive sliding plate systems for their shoes.
Which I think is actually a good thing in some way.
If we could get that, because I think it's one of the features that I love.
Cam Nicholls (13:07) Do you think Shimano have done it for the greater good?
I was just, I was processing that going, okay.
Neill Stanbury (13:11) No comment.
So that's the SPD-SLR system. And look, I think I've mentioned this before on one of our previous podcasts or videos, Cam, but if there's anyone from Shimano head office watching this, can you please talk to the people in engineering?
What we really need in this world is different length spindles that you can remove fro
Mon, 19 Oct 2026 - 15min - 102 - How Much Strength Training Do Cyclists Actually Need?
Summary:
How much strength training do cyclists actually need, and could doing too much in the gym be interfering with your riding?
For recreational and amateur cyclists balancing training with work, family and limited time, strength training can easily become overcomplicated. Long gym sessions with multiple exercises, sets and repetitions may create unnecessary fatigue, making it harder to complete the cycling sessions that actually matter.
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, Cam Nicholls is joined by RCA head coach Ryan Thomas to discuss a simpler approach to strength training for cyclists and how a minimum effective dose can make gym work easier to maintain alongside riding.
Drawing on recommendations from RCA strength coach Dr Aaron Turner and the research discussed in his previous RCA content, Cam explains an approach based around accumulating approximately 16 to 30 lower-body repetitions at a sufficiently heavy load.
In practical terms, that could be as simple as two sets of five repetitions across two lower-body exercises, giving a cyclist 20 quality repetitions without turning the gym session into an hour-long workout.
Cam also shares his own experience of doing considerably more gym work, including squats, single-leg press and alternating lunges, only to find that the additional volume was creating fatigue that interfered with his cycling training.
As he moved from an off-season phase into preparation for Masters Nationals, he reduced his strength training to one maintenance session per week and simplified the workload. The result, he says, has been less soreness and fatigue while maintaining his strength.
Cam and Ryan also discuss where gym sessions can sit within a cycling week, including the option of placing strength work later on the same day as a hard ride so that easy days can remain genuinely easy.
The conversation isn't only about cycling performance. They also discuss resistance training and bone mineral density, and why cyclists may have reasons beyond power and durability to include some form of strength work in their routine.
In this episode:
Why cyclists often overcomplicate strength training How much lower-body strength work cyclists may actually need The 16 to 30 repetition range discussed by Cam Why the working weight still needs to be sufficiently heavy Two sets of five repetitions across two exercises Why more gym volume can create unnecessary cycling fatigue Delayed onset muscle soreness after strength training Building strength in the off-season versus maintaining it during the season Why Cam reduced his gym training to once per week Maintaining strength with a lower training volume How long a simple strength session can take Why technical exercises should come earlier in a gym session Rest periods between heavy strength sets Combining gym work and hard cycling on the same day Why Cam reduces the weight when lifting after a hard ride How simplifying gym sessions can improve consistency Balancing cycling, strength training, work and family Why cyclists don't necessarily need a gym membership to do resistance training Strength training and bone mineral density for cyclists Why doing something can be better than abandoning strength work because the ideal session isn't practicalThe practical takeaway is that strength training doesn't necessarily need to involve long, complicated gym sessions. For cyclists whose main priority is riding, Cam and Ryan's discussion points towards keeping the strength work focused, managing the fatigue it creates and finding an approach simple enough to perform consistently.
Road Cycling Academy helps recreational and amateur cyclists train smarter, improve their performance and get more from the limited training time they have available.
RCA's Strength Training for Cyclists program provides structured off-bike strength training specifically for road cyclists.
#CyclingTraining #StrengthTraining #StrengthTrainingForCyclists #WeightTraining #RoadCycling #CyclingPerformance #CyclingStrength #CyclingFitness #AmateurCycling #RoadCyclingAcademy
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:02) Welcome to the RCA podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas, and today we're going to talk about a simple approach to strength training, the gym, because I feel like, I mean, I don't coach anyone anymore, Ryan, you coach a lot of people, but just from speaking to people before they jump on board, that people overcomplicate the gym and, you know, it becomes all too difficult and then they don't do it and then they're missing out on the gains.
Would that be fair to say? What's your experiences?
Ryan Thomas (00:58) Yeah, I would agree. It's a conversation every time you talk to a new athlete. What are you doing in the gym?
And usually it's, I'm doing these 10 workouts, I'm trying to do this amount of time in there and this, and I just say, okay, just break it down, make it simple for me.
What are you doing? How many times a week are you going and what's your sets and reps and what's your main exercises?
Try to simplify it.
Cam Nicholls (01:21) Yeah, and I think people do overcomplicate it quite a lot. I've been guilty of this myself and once you start doing a bit too much, which I think is instinct for a lot of recreational and amateurs.
I've only recently finally listened to Aaron Turner, the RCA strength coach, and gone, watch that video again, which we'll link up there. We're going to reference today, and gone, actually, this is a game changer.
So essentially what we're talking about here, and this is based off the research, right? Rather than thinking about all these technical exercises you need to do and lots of sets and reps, the bare minimum dose, according to the research that you need to achieve, assuming you're already, you've done some gym before, right? You're conditioned.
You're not going to go in and just do this out of nowhere, right? You need some conditioning in the gym first. Let me just preface this.
All you need to achieve to obtain the 5% improvement in cycling, threshold, neuromuscular power, durability is the big one. You need to accumulate somewhere between 16 to 30 repetitions on your lower body, which is your legs, right? 16 to 30 reps.
With the slight caveat, it needs to be at a minimum of 80% of your one-repetition max, which in layman's terms means you need to work out how many reps you can do up to eight and you're failing at eight. That's your 80% of one-rep max.
Bit of a mouthful, that one.
You need to work that out, but you don't go to eight. You normally just go four to five. Let's just say for the purpose of this video, five.
So if you only need to achieve 16 to 30 repetitions on your lower body to achieve the strength gains or strength maintenance, to achieve bigger threshold, bigger neuromuscular power, more durability, in simple terms, that's two sets of five reps on one exercise and then two sets of five reps on another exercise.
Ryan Thomas (03:42) It's not much, is it?
Cam Nicholls (03:44) It's not.
And you've achieved 20. Now, you could do a little bit more. You could do a little bit less, but you're still getting in that minimum dose range to achieve outcomes.
Now, from when you speak to recreationals, are they doing their gym sessions like this?
Ryan Thomas (03:44) No, it's way more than that.
Cam Nicholls (03:44) Way more.
Ryan Thomas (03:44) Way more.
Cam Nicholls (03:44) Yeah. And the problem with doing way more is, yes, and this is according to research, you may get bigger gains, right?
But more means more fatigue, means more delayed onset muscle soreness, and typically means that there can be somewhere between one to three days post-gym exercise where you're carrying fatigue or you're affected by the gym session if you're doing too much.
Three days in a week, if you're doing intense training, two to three intense sessions a week.
Ryan Thomas (03:44) Yeah, two to three.
Cam Nicholls (03:44) It's going to impact your cycling. If cycling is your goal, it's going to impact your cycling.
I was doing this.
I was guilty of this, right? I was going to the gym twice a week up until recently because I was having a bit of an off-season, and that's typically the protocol, right?
During an off-season phase, you want to go to the gym twice a week to build strength, and then when you go into an on-season phase, so I'm now training for Masters Nationals, we go for one session per week, one gym session, which is a maintenance session.
And according to the research, we'll link to it below, you can maintain the same level of strength that you've developed in that off-season phase for up to 13 weeks by just going once per week.
But what was I stupidly doing? I was doing three sets of, I was doing squats, I was doing single-leg press, and I was doing alternating lunges, three sets of five on each.
So that's a lot of repetitions there, well and truly more than the 16 to 30.
And I've kept that going now. Well, I did, and what happened?
I was experiencing too much fatigue relative to what I needed to reserve for my cycling training, because now I've upped my training to two to three times per week.
So in the last couple of weeks, I went back and watched Aaron's video, and I'm now aiming for that rep range, normally around 20 reps.
And all it takes, unless you're accessorising with abs and some upper-body stuff, literally takes 20 to 25 minutes in the gym.
Ryan Thomas (06:30) Yeah, probably less.
Cam Nicholls (06:30) Probably less. Yeah.
I mean, one thing that you want to do is obviously a warm-up.
Ryan Thomas (06:30) Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (06:30) Yep. So five minutes on the spin bike.
The first, and there's something called the priority model in strength and conditioning, which means start with the most technical exercises first, because the longer you go, the more neurological fatigue that you get.
And if you finish off with deadlifts and, you know, your form's a little bit out...
Ryan Thomas (06:54) Bad news.
Cam Nicholls (06:54) Bad news.
So I don't do deadlifts anymore because of that.
So I'll start with squats.
You want to leave, for at least your priority exercises, three minutes between each set, which is a fair bit of time as well.
Aaron says you can bring it down to two minutes if you want to be practical, but for strength gains, you want to do about three minutes.
So jumping in, warm up on the bike, warm-up set. And then I do my two sets of five, and two sets of five.
Bit of ab work, out the door.
Ryan Thomas (07:42) Yeah. Easy.
Cam Nicholls (07:42) And guess what? I've been able to maintain that strength. I've been doing this for the last three weeks now.
So I'm not feeling like I'm losing any strength.
And the biggest thing here is I'm not getting sore.
Ryan Thomas (07:43) You're still able to go as hard on the group rides?
Cam Nicholls (07:46) Yep. I'm not getting the delayed onset muscle fatigue. I'm not feeling fatigued.
And the last time I did this, it was on a Saturday afternoon. I'd done the group ride.
And quite often they say, when you're in a high-intensity phase, actually stacking your gym on a day where you're doing an intense cycling session is good because you get all your intensity in one day.
And you can reserve the easy days for being easy.
Provided you give it a good five, six hours to enable the body to recuperate a little bit.
So I was just driving past the gym on a Saturday afternoon. I'd done three hours pretty hard.
And I was like, oh, the gym. Oh, it's only going to take me 20, 25 minutes.
So I just went in and did a session.
And it was quick. It was easy. I didn't experience the fatigue.
And the benefit of this is I will consistently do it every week now.
Whereas in the past I pushed it beyond that 30 reps. I probably got a little bit too heavy as well.
I'm not probably doing 80% of one-rep max. I'll probably do a little bit heavy.
So now I'm like, by the law, that's the weight. That's the repetition range.
And consistency is key, as you know, with anything in life.
Ryan Thomas (09:02) I'm interested to, if you were to let that fall for, let's say, you don't do it once a week, or you skip it for two or three weeks.
Is that a negative impact on the strength in the gym, or is it minimum once a week and then start losing it at a specific rate?
Cam Nicholls (09:21) Today's podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy's Weight Training for Cyclists program.
And if you're listening from the Northern Hemisphere, now is a very good time to start thinking about strength training as you head towards the winter months and begin building towards next season.
Because if you do strength training right, you're looking at about a 5% to 10% gain.
But the problem many recreational cyclists face is they know they should be lifting weights, but they're not sure what exercises to do, how heavy to lift, nor how to fit strength work around their cycling.
And that's exactly why we have created this program with Dr Aaron Turner, a strength and conditioning specialist with 20 years of experience working with athletes, including elite-level cyclists.
In our program, you'll get a beginner, intermediate and advanced strength program, all downloadable, backed by six detailed video tutorials, and then 60 individual exercise video demonstrations showing you exactly what to do and how to integrate it with your riding.
The goal is simple, more power, better durability and improved efficiency on the bike.
And you'll get lifetime access to this program for only $147 USD, backed by our money-back guarantee.
If you're keen, head to the Road Cycling Academy website and check out our Weight Training for Cyclists program.
Now let's get back to the podcast.
Anecdotally, if I don't go within 10 days, I'll need to back the weight off a bit next time I go. So that's typically what I do.
And to be fair, even on a day where I'm doing it on, and this is Aaron's recommendation, if you're doing gym on a day where you've done intensity in the morning, just back off the weights by 5%, 10%.
If I've missed gym by 10 days, I probably won't do it on an intense day. I'll probably just do it independently.
But once again, I'll back off the weight 5%, 10%.
And you can just, over the course of two or three weeks, ease yourself back into it because people will miss it.
But I think they're less inclined to miss it if they keep it this simple.
Ryan Thomas (11:29) Yes, agreed. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (11:30) So I guess that's the rule or the idea of this video, is don't overcomplicate things.
If you want to understand and hear all the research aligned to this, which Aaron references, we'll link the video up here.
And yeah, it's been a game changer for me, Ryan.
So that's why I wanted to bring it into this video today, because I know a lot of people struggle with keeping gym into their routine.
One, because of time. A full hour, don't have it.
And two, because I'm already cooked from everything else I'm doing.
This, I believe, solves those two problems.
Ryan Thomas (12:06) Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
It's like working with people who are trying to balance work, cycling, families and trying to squeeze gym in.
It's like, they say, oh, not this time here and this time there.
And I'm trying to, like as a coach, I'm trying to think about, oh, what's the load outside of the riding and how's that all balanced?
And this makes it super easy.
It's super easy to balance that load because it's not actually adding that much load.
Cam Nicholls (12:33) It's not.
Ryan Thomas (12:34) It's very little load for your muscles.
And you're not, like most people you talk to who are gym-goers who have experience in the gym.
Well, most people have experience in the gym because they go in and they spend an hour or two there and they go in and they do four or five big workouts and they go on to failure.
And then they're like, well, I need to do that to keep it off and to keep my cycling. I need to do more and more and more.
Cam Nicholls (12:34) Yep.
Ryan Thomas (12:34) It's just not the case.
Less is more.
Cam Nicholls (12:34) Less is more.
Ryan Thomas (12:34) Less is more. Yeah.
We spoke about it in another podcast just before. Sometimes it can be the same with on the bike as well.
It's the quality. Consistency is a big piece of the puzzle.
Cam Nicholls (13:11) I think less is more leads to more consistency, which overall is where the gains are made.
And I think with this one as well, you're like, you don't need to, I have a gym membership, but you don't need a gym membership.
You can literally just buy a kettlebell, find two exercises to do and just implement this pretty...
Ryan Thomas (13:29) That's my routine.
Cam Nicholls (13:31) That's your routine.
And look, you know, Aaron makes a good point because as road cyclists, you know, there's a benefit gain from a performance perspective, but also if you're not doing any resistance training, there's a disadvantage from a bone mineral density perspective.
Like cycling is not good for bone density.
Weird. You'd be better off being a sedentary individual sitting on the couch watching Netflix.
So, you know, even not for the performance gains, you should be doing this.
And if it's not following the protocol that I've discussed here, just, which I think is what you do, you just move stuff around.
Ryan Thomas (14:04) I just do something.
Cam Nicholls (14:05) Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (14:06) General health. Like if you're just doing one sport, then you're not as healthy as you can be.
It comes down to that pretty much.
Cam Nicholls (14:15) Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (14:15) If you, yeah, you don't need to be scientifically, like that's the best way to do it, is to lift heavy things, but I don't have a gym membership.
I lift reasonably heavy things and I work my muscles hard, but I put the little fella on shoulders, that's 15 kilos.
But yeah, just move stuff around.
If it's that complicated and you can't make it to the gym, go downstairs, do some squats, push-ups, sit-ups, and that just activates that muscular system.
If you can't do what you've just said.
Cam Nicholls (14:46) Yeah, exactly.
You look a little bit better on the beach as well if you're doing some push-ups and sit-ups.
Ryan Thomas (14:51) I don't look good on a beach.
Cam Nicholls (14:52) Neither do I. We've both got moon tans.
Anyway. Yeah.
All right. Well, thanks for your time, Ryan.
Much appreciated. And we'll catch everyone in the next podcast.
Wed, 26 Aug 2026 - 14min - 101 - The Most Important Cycling Graph You're Probably Ignoring
Summary:
Do you know your best five-second, one-minute or five-minute power, or are you basing almost all of your cycling training around FTP?
For many recreational and amateur cyclists, FTP becomes the number used to set training zones and measure progress. But one number can't necessarily tell you where your strengths and weaknesses sit across everything from a short sprint to a sustained effort.
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, Cam Nicholls is joined by RCA head coach Ryan Thomas to discuss the cycling peak power curve and why Ryan considers it one of the first things worth examining when assessing a cyclist.
Using a power meter and platforms such as TrainingPeaks, cyclists can look at their best power across durations ranging from a few seconds through to longer sustained efforts. Ryan explains how those numbers help build a picture of the rider's physiology and why simply relying on an estimated FTP can sometimes lead to inappropriate training intensities.
A major issue is whether the data actually contains maximal efforts. A cyclist who mostly completes structured workouts in ERG mode, for example, may never have produced a genuine all-out five-second sprint, one-minute effort or five-minute effort. In that situation, a model trying to estimate fitness from existing ride data may be working with an incomplete power curve.
Cam and Ryan discuss how critical power testing can provide a more useful picture without requiring cyclists to test every individual duration. Ryan explains the RCA approach, including a 10-second sprint, a three-minute maximal effort and a longer 12-minute effort, and why shorter and longer efforts can be used to help model critical power.
They also discuss why two cyclists with a similar threshold may need very different VO2 training prescriptions. One rider may have considerably more capacity above threshold than another, meaning a standard workout based purely on a percentage of FTP may be too easy for one cyclist and unsustainable for another.
Ryan also introduces W prime as another useful, although not perfectly precise, way of thinking about a cyclist's capacity to repeatedly work above critical power.
In this episode:
What a cycling peak power curve actually shows Why Ryan looks at the power curve when assessing a cyclist Five-second, one-minute, five-minute and longer-duration power Why FTP doesn't describe every aspect of cycling performance Why you need a power meter to build a meaningful power curve How racing and bunch rides can produce different power data from structured workouts Why ERG mode may leave gaps in your peak power data How to tell whether your existing power curve is representative Why you don't need to test every point on the curve individually How critical power testing works RCA's 10-second sprint and three-minute maximal test Why Ryan uses a longer 12-minute effort When a five-minute maximal effort can provide additional information Why estimated or modelled FTP can sometimes be misleading How incorrect threshold settings affect your training zones Why VO2 power can differ substantially between riders with similar thresholds Why fixed percentages of FTP don't suit every cyclist What W prime can tell you about work above critical power How TrainingPeaks and Strava can help you examine your power data Why tracking more than FTP can provide additional ways to measure progressFor recreational cyclists, the practical takeaway isn't that FTP has no value. It's that FTP is only part of the picture. Understanding how your power changes across different durations can help identify strengths and weaknesses, make training targets more appropriate and give you additional ways to recognise progress.
Road Cycling Academy helps recreational and amateur cyclists train smarter, improve their performance and get more from the limited training time they have available.
For cyclists who want ongoing, personalised guidance, RCA coaching can help interpret individual strengths and weaknesses and use that information to make training more specific to the rider.
#CyclingTraining #CyclingPower #PowerMeter #FTP #CriticalPower #VO2Max #TrainingPeaks #CyclingPerformance #RoadCycling #RoadCyclingAcademy
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:02) Welcome to the RCA podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas, and today we're going to be talking about, we believe, the most important graph for any cyclist, definitely more important than FTP.
And I think, well, you would know because you coach a lot of people, that not many people know what this is, or they don't spend a lot of time looking at it when it tells them a lot.
So much. If you're a rider wanting to be better, you should know this, shouldn't you?
Ryan Thomas (00:58) 100%. Yeah. The context, we onboard members all the time doing off-the-shelf programs.
And first thing I would go into is the TrainingPeaks dashboard. I'll go in and I'll look at the peak power chart and I'll say, oh yeah, looks good. Compare it to this year versus last year, and then go in and look at threshold and see if threshold's right.
Measure it, like see the zones. But the first thing is look at the peak power chart.
Cam Nicholls (01:21) Okay. So for those out there that don't know what a peak power chart is, I know we're going to go into a fair bit more detail here, but just at a high level, like what is it?
Ryan Thomas (01:30) It's essentially, you can choose the date range, but it's...
Cam Nicholls (01:30) You need a power meter.
Ryan Thomas (01:30) You need a power meter. And it's the, in TrainingPeaks, it's the peak powers that you have produced across their ranges.
So five seconds, 10 seconds, 12 seconds, 20 seconds. And it's not every, it's not very specific. It's like one minute, five minutes, six minutes, 10 minutes, 12 minutes, 20 minutes, 60 minutes.
It essentially plots a curve based on your...
Cam Nicholls (01:30) Does it go all the way out to two or three hours if you want?
Ryan Thomas (01:30) Yeah, it goes, yeah. That part of the curve is probably not as important.
It's more the under 60 minutes that's the critical one as it defines the physiology of the rider type.
But yeah, it's super important if you want to know, you will know what type of rider you are, but as a coach or someone looking into it, or you don't know what your peak five-minute power is, how do you do a five-minute effort, for example, or a 20-minute? You don't know what that number is.
A lot of people will know those two, five and 20, but what's your one-minute or your 30-second or three minutes, for example? It's very specific to what type of rider you are.
Cam Nicholls (02:34) So that's a good segue. Well, why bother understanding your numbers across those segments?
Essentially they...
If you're a recreational amateur, and you sit out there and you're watching this video and you're like, no, I'm not going to bother because it's too much hard work.
I've got to go do all these tests. I don't need to figure this out. What would you say to that person?
Ryan Thomas (02:57) I'd say you're not training the right areas if you don't know what your peak powers are across those curves.
It depends on what type of rider you are, whether you're a rider that trains or you're a rider that does bunch rides, racing, two very different people in terms of what that curve looks like.
A rider that just trains, let's say, I'll just pull a generic one out, someone who does AI programs or chooses a program online, and they just do specific workouts.
They're never going all out.
Cam Nicholls (03:27) Zwift workouts is a very popular one.
Ryan Thomas (03:29) Zwift workouts.
They just go on and choose a workout. It's in ERG mode, never going all out. You're not doing racing.
That power curve is not going to represent the rider type you are because you've never done a five-second sprint, or you've never done a one-minute, five-minute all-out effort.
Cam Nicholls (03:42) You might've done one 10 years ago.
Ryan Thomas (03:47) Or five years ago, but not racing.
It's not representative of the rider you are today.
Someone who's racing or doing bunch rides, they're going all out for certain durations, might have a better idea in that curve.
More often than not, people who are coming to the RCA, I'll look at the curve and I'm like, your threshold setting's 250, but the highest power you've ever done for 20 minutes is 200.
Why is your threshold at 250 watts? That's an example, even if you're doing one-minute efforts. What's your one-minute peak power?
I don't know. What do you do on these efforts?
Cam Nicholls (04:20) In order for somebody to understand their peak powers, if they haven't really done this before, and they want to go, I want to get a little bit more accurate with my training, and I want to understand what rider type that I am.
Am I actually, I think I'm better at VO2 than threshold, but I don't really test it.
Would you recommend that they spend a week going out and doing an all-out five-second, then a 10-second, and then a one-minute, and then a three-minute, and then just following the TrainingPeaks cycle?
Because I know some people might have this information. I mean, you would know better than me.
What percentage of people, recreationals, come to you and you look at their data, they've never done structured training before.
They're about to start. You look at their peak powers. You're like, okay, you've got a good picture there.
Ryan Thomas (05:03) One to 2%.
Cam Nicholls (05:05) Oh, okay. Very, very few.
Ryan Thomas (05:06) Very little. Very little.
Cam Nicholls (05:10) A lot of people... Do they then have an idea of what they think they're good at? They must.
Ryan Thomas (05:15) Yeah, they do.
Cam Nicholls (05:17) Okay. Is it normally accurate once you've actually figured it out?
Ryan Thomas (05:22) Yeah, to some extent. It depends on the type of rider. If they're a trainer or a racer, depends what type of their goals are with riding, essentially.
But yeah, you don't necessarily need to go out and pick every point along that curve and do a maximum effort.
There's testing we can do that plots that curve. That's the whole point of critical power testing, essentially, is we choose three, four, five parameters, two parameters, and it mimics that curve based on the two to three markers we put on that curve.
Cam Nicholls (05:56) Yeah. You only normally practically, because you think it's most practical for recreational and amateurs with critical power testing, which is essentially another way to get your threshold estimate.
We throw FTP, as you said, throw it in the bin.
We're now going to look at critical power. So critical power gives us that threshold estimate, but it also gives us a rough idea of this power curve.
From your experiences, three is probably what they say online, but you say you can get away with just doing two tests across two days, and that'll give you a pretty good feel for your power graph without having to go do all the tests.
So why do you say just the two and what are the two tests?
Ryan Thomas (06:37) The two tests, the first test has two maximum efforts in it, but it's not used within the critical power model.
So the first test that we do in the RCA is a 10-second sprint and a three-minute maximum effort in one session with a long recovery in there.
The 10-second sprint gives us your five-second peak power.
That'll tell us your peak neuromuscular capacity. If you've got a lower threshold, where does that sit and how does that curve look? It's essentially how steep is the top end of that curve versus if it's a four.
Three-minute is your anaerobic VO2 estimate in between, and then the other test on the next day, we would do a 12-minute effort.
Okay. We have a critical power testing week, RCA testing week that I use, and I have a five-minute in there as well.
But my experience, the five-minute peak power within the critical power, if we have a three and a 12, that five-minute power, it changes the middle.
So if we think about what's happening at the other two ends, it only moves it up a tiny bit. It's like plus or minus five watts to the five-minute.
So if you're motivated to do three, then yeah, do the third. If you're not, then I don't think it makes massive.
Cam Nicholls (07:50) Yeah. Okay. And you were saying as well, last time we spoke about this, it doesn't have to be exactly three minutes.
So if somebody has got a segment, which is like a climb and it's going to take them two minutes, 45.
And if someone's got a longer climb, but it's not 12, it's eight minutes, 43. That's fine.
You can use this and we'll link to a calculator below where you put in the timestamp and then you put in the wattage and then it will calculate your critical power.
Ryan Thomas (08:16) Yeah. So there's general parameters, like the people who created this, the critical power and critical speed, it's been around for a long time, but there's general parameters around if you're just using two, what sort of durations you want.
And we use three minutes because it works well.
Three and 12 minutes was the first ones that they came up with.
Cam Nicholls (08:36) Oh, okay.
Ryan Thomas (08:37) Just align really well with how that curve sits.
But I would recommend anywhere from two to four minutes for the shorter effort and anywhere above 10.
Getting below 10 minutes starts to mess it up a little bit, I would say, because it's not quite long enough to see what's happening there.
I'd say over 10 minutes, 10 to 20.
Cam Nicholls (08:58) Today's podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy's Weight Training for Cyclists program.
And if you're listening from the Northern Hemisphere, now is a very good time to start thinking about strength training as you head towards the winter months and begin building towards next season.
Because if you do strength training right, you're looking at about a five to 10% gain.
But the problem many recreational cyclists face is they know they should be lifting weights, but they're not sure what exercises to do, how heavy to lift, nor how to fit strength work around their cycling.
And that's exactly why we have created this program with Dr. Aaron Turner, a strength and conditioning specialist with 20 years of experience working with athletes, including elite-level cyclists.
In our program, you'll get a beginner, intermediate and advanced strength program, all downloadable, backed by six detailed video tutorials, and then 60 individual exercise video demonstrations, showing you exactly what to do and how to integrate it with your riding.
The goal is simple, more power, better durability and improved efficiency on the bike.
And you'll get lifetime access to this program for only $147 USD, backed by our money-back guarantee.
If you're keen, head to the Road Cycling Academy website and check out our Weight Training for Cyclists program.
Now let's get back to the podcast.
Okay. So once you work with recreational amateurs, they haven't done this before, they do the tests and then maybe they're, you know, a few months in and they might be doing some other power numbers.
So they're getting a better feel for what their graph looks like, their power curve graph. What is it? Are they interested in it?
Is it changing the way that they see things?
Obviously it changes the way that you coach them because you can train more accurately to the zones and you can get a better feel for how they're improving over time relative to not just FTP, but all these other numbers.
Ryan Thomas (11:03) Yes.
Cam Nicholls (11:03) So that's great that you can see that, but what's most, what's of most interest to them?
Ryan Thomas (11:03) I think it gives, like you just said, it gives them another parameter to improve on.
So a lot of people, a lot of people will come and they'll know their threshold number, whether it's accurate or not, they'll know a rough threshold number.
But if you ask them, what's your best one-minute power, they'll have no idea.
And if we say, well, let's test it, let's try and improve it. Oh, cool. Like it's something, it's motivation.
It's something extra to test and track and follow.
And even if it's on TrainingPeaks, they go and do a bunch ride and there's a, in TrainingPeaks, you'll get notified if you get an all-time best or a 2026 best across that curve, but you only get notified for specific durations.
But as a coach, I can go in and look at that peak power curve and I can say, oh, that was, you don't get notified on your 12-minute best, but I'm letting you know that this was your 12-minute best effort for 2026, or this was your best two-minute for 2026.
Oh, that's awesome. I didn't know that. I'm going to look at that more often.
So making them aware of it gives them motivation to track those.
Cam Nicholls (12:05) Tangible improvements that they can now actually understand.
Ryan Thomas (12:08) Yeah. And if you're not looking at it or you're not just looking at the notifications that whatever platform you're using sends you, you may not be getting the whole picture.
So as a coach, I see that because I say, awesome, well done.
That was your best three-minute or two-minute, which isn't a notification in any system.
That's your best two-minute power for the last six months or last year or last two years.
And they're like, oh, what really? That's awesome.
Cam Nicholls (12:33) Yep. Okay. And then just to round out in terms of the training side of things, you say that people get more accurate with their zones, but most people out there will either have an estimated FTP from an app, AI tool, whatever it might be, or they might've done an FTP test.
They've done a 20-minute test. Okay. This now enables them to get more accurate with their training.
Why is that?
Ryan Thomas (12:58) Because your zones are set correctly.
I have a big gripe with AI-detected threshold zones because I mentioned in the start of this, it assumes that the efforts that you've done are maximal.
And if they're not maximal, then they're very incorrect.
So an example for myself at the moment, so even TrainingPeaks has this in their new Analyze360.
If you've got premium, you go into the power and it'll predict what your modelled FTP is.
If you haven't done any maximum efforts across any of the power curve, it's going to spit you out a threshold number based on the maximum efforts that you've done or the peak powers that it reads.
At the moment, it's telling me my threshold is 290 watts and it's 40, 50 watts off what I know my threshold is.
It's because I haven't done any maximal efforts. I've just been riding easy.
I've been doing some threshold efforts, a couple of Zone 2, but if you're coming into training and you're doing training based off this modelled power, you might be 10% lower on your threshold.
You're not training any zone accurately.
So you're just not training hard enough, essentially.
Or you're training too hard. It's two parts of the picture there.
So coming in, doing proper testing, critical power testing, the 20-minute test is good and it'll give you a good threshold number to base your zones off, but critical power gives us more data to go off.
But if you come in and you set that threshold zone properly, you're going to be training properly.
You're going to be training hard enough to get a stimulus in the areas that we're trying to get it out of.
Cam Nicholls (14:30) Yeah. One of the examples that I like in this space is, you know, I speak to a lot of people on a Performance Breakthrough Call and they haven't done this process before.
So they're kind of a
Wed, 26 Aug 2026 - 18min - 100 - Why More Group Rides Won't Make You Faster (Incl: latest 2026 Research)
Summary:
Why can you keep doing the same group ride every week and still get dropped in exactly the same place?
For recreational and amateur cyclists, simply doing more group rides can improve fitness and experience, but it may not address the specific weakness that's causing you to lose the wheel when the pace suddenly increases.
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, Cam Nicholls is joined by RCA head coach Ryan Thomas to discuss training specificity and what amateur cyclists can learn from research examining how professional riders train for the different demands they face during stages of the Vuelta.
The research looked at power distribution across sprinters, all-rounders and climbers on flat, semi-mountainous and mountainous stages. While the findings may not sound revolutionary, Ryan explains why they reinforce an important training principle: professional cyclists prepare for the specific demands they'll face in competition rather than relying on racing alone to make them better.
Cam and Ryan bring that principle back to a much more familiar goal for amateur cyclists: keeping up with the local bunch ride.
If you're repeatedly getting dropped when the group accelerates, simply returning to the same ride every week may not provide enough targeted training to improve the energy systems that are limiting you. Instead, Ryan explains why identifying where you're getting dropped and training that specific weakness can be more effective.
They use RCA member Belle as a real-world example. After previously being dropped repeatedly on the local Boreen Point bunch ride, Belle became more consistent with her training and incorporated dedicated Zone 2 riding alongside specific sprint, anaerobic and VO2 work.
Ryan explains that her five-second and one-minute power improved substantially, while Cam describes seeing the difference firsthand when Belle returned to the same group ride and was able to stay with the bunch and contribute turns.
They also break down one of the sprint sessions used in her training: six seconds all-out, two minutes recovery, another six seconds all-out, two minutes recovery, then a 12-second sprint, repeated for two to three sets.
The purpose isn't simply to sprint harder once. It's to develop maximum power and the ability to repeat those short, hard efforts that often determine whether you stay with the group when the pace changes.
In this episode:
What professional cycling research from the Vuelta tells us about training specificity How sprinters, climbers and GC riders face different demands during a race Why professional cyclists train specifically for their role Why doing more group rides isn't always enough to stop getting dropped How to identify the point in a bunch ride where your fitness is limiting you Why short, hard accelerations often decide whether you stay with the group The importance of five-second and one-minute power for group riding How Belle changed her training after repeatedly getting dropped Why consistent Zone 2 training still matters How sprint, anaerobic and VO2 work can complement group riding A six-second and 12-second repeatability sprint session Why sprint sessions should still be treated as intensity training How different rider types respond differently to sprint work Why specific training doesn't mean you need to stop doing your favourite group rideThe practical takeaway is to look beyond simply doing more of the activity you're trying to improve. If you're consistently getting dropped at the same point in a group ride, identify what happens at that moment and train the specific demands involved. For many riders, that could mean adding targeted sprint, anaerobic or VO2 work around their existing riding rather than simply adding another bunch ride.
Road Cycling Academy helps recreational and amateur cyclists train smarter, improve their performance and get more from the limited training time they have available.
Research: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC13179141/
#CyclingTraining #RoadCycling #GroupRides #CyclingPerformance #SprintTraining #VO2Max #CyclingWorkouts #AmateurCycling #CyclingFitness #RoadCyclingAcademy
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:02) Welcome to the RCA podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas. And today we're going to be talking about some 2026 research that was published about how the, not Tour de France cyclists, but Vuelta professional cyclists train.
And I sent this to Ryan and his initial thoughts were, I'm not sure this is going to blow anyone's mind. But I said, no, I think, Ryan, it actually reinforces something that we all know, but I think a lot of recreational and amateurs neglect a lot. And I've got some evidence through the comment section of YouTube to show everyone.
And then an example of an RCA member who's recently demonstrated, like, how this type of training can really benefit the general recreational and amateur. So can you tell us a little bit about the research?
Ryan Thomas (01:20) Yeah. So essentially they looked at professional riders. They looked at the distribution of power and intensity factor and average power across particular stages in the Vuelta, in the Tour of Spain, across rider type.
So they looked at sprinters, all-round riders and climbers, and they looked at three different terrains. So flat, semi-mountainous and full mountainous stages. And they looked at what type, what rider type, how their power distribution was across each different stage.
So essentially, if you're a mountain climber, you spend more time in the higher powers in the mountain stages. If you're a flat rider or a sprinter, then you spend a lot of time in those lower zones and then you'll spend a little time in those higher zones.
So yeah, it's like, we all know that as a flat stage, it's going to be pretty easy for the climbers and then it's going to be really hard for the sprinters, and vice versa.
For the climbing stages or the mountain stages, the GC riders or the climbers are going to spend a lot of time in that higher threshold, VO2 zone. And the sprinters in those types of stages are going to be in the lower-intensity, moderate-intensity zones.
Cam Nicholls (02:31) Yeah. And if you're, like, I like how deep it went in terms of, like, if you're a domestique climber and you're there to support a GC rider, how does the stage look for you? Because you're not grinding threshold for four hours, are you?
No. You're probably really aggressive out of the gate on the climb to pace and protect your GC rider. So it really went into the specifics of, you know, not just about the rider type, but what they expect to receive, or expect, on any given stage.
Ryan Thomas (03:04) Yeah. And it helps them be able to train, right? Like, as a domestique, you know that I'd have to follow the breakaway for the first hour.
So I need to be able to do accelerations. Then I'll settle down if I'm in the breakaway or if I'm in the group. And then my role is to get that rider, the GC rider, to the bottom of that climb through five minutes, as hard as you can, and then see you later.
Cam Nicholls (03:21) See you later.
Ryan Thomas (03:22) Pull the agenda.
Cam Nicholls (03:22) In Zone 1. Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (03:23) Zone 1 for the rest. Whereas GC rider, sit back, Zone 2, a couple of accelerations following breakaways, the surges in the group. But your main role is halfway, beyond halfway through the stage, whereas the first half of the stage is easy.
So as a GC rider, you probably don't need to train that as much as what a breakaway specialist would. You go all out at the start, and then you need to be able to go all out at the end. So quite a different type of situation.
Cam Nicholls (03:49) Yeah. So the pros obviously analyse this information and then they train accordingly. So what is this specifically, maybe I've, pardon the pun, what is this specifically called?
Ryan Thomas (04:01) Yeah. Specificity.
Cam Nicholls (04:03) Yeah, exactly. Which is not anything new. So I think it's actually been around for a very long time.
But when I sent you this paper and I said, we should do a YouTube video on it, and you're like, oh, it's kind of like just validating or reinforcing something that we all know in the coaching circles. But I don't think many recreational and amateurs pay a lot of attention to it.
Especially, and the example I'm going to use here is what a lot of amateur and recreationals want to achieve. They want to beat their mates in the local group ride, or they want to hang on to the local group ride, or they want to get from the B group to the A group or something along those group ride lines. There's always some type of goal.
But then what do a lot of people end up doing?
Ryan Thomas (04:47) Just more of that.
Cam Nicholls (04:49) Just more group riding. In fact, there was a video we made recently about how you can actually improve your group riding through a specific workout. And we'll link to that at the top of the screen here.
And one of the comments was like, just do more group riding. And there was a lot of people that liked that comment, which suggests to me that perhaps there's some naivety out there about, okay, if you're wanting to get good at something specific, like a local group ride, which is the example we're going to use, we shouldn't just be doing group rides. Why is that, Ryan?
Ryan Thomas (05:23) Yeah, well, the example that I like to say is if I want to have a 400-watt threshold, I don't just go out and ride at 400 watts for as long as I can every day until I get there, because it's not going to get you there. Well, I'm just fatiguing you for no reason.
It's just not really specific in terms of what that bunch ride, in this scenario, what physiology are you hitting? What do you actually need to improve?
Because bunch rides are so variable in terms of intensity. If we're just going doing more bunch rides, we're hitting energy systems a little bit here and there, but never hitting one to improve it significantly enough to see a change.
Cam Nicholls (06:03) And you're probably not overextending yourself because when you get dropped in that specific part of the group ride and you keep getting dropped there, that's normally where you finish.
Ryan Thomas (06:12) Usually it's early in a group ride, right? So if it's a 45-minute hard part of the group ride and you get dropped 10 minutes in, 10 minutes of anything isn't really enough to move the needle. You're not really training that hard in that scenario.
So if you're getting further and further in a group ride, yes, there's progression there, but it's still not specific.
Yes, group rides are specific to group rides, but specific training for group riding is going to make you better at group rides or racing or whatever it is. The same as the professional riders. Professional racers don't just ride easy and then just go out and do races and get better.
Cam Nicholls (06:52) Racing does make you better, makes you stronger. And so does doing more bunch rides make you better. But as we talked about earlier, the pros train around their racing, which is very specific to the outcome they're trying to achieve.
So when they do get to the race, they're better prepared for it.
Ryan Thomas (07:07) Exactly.
Cam Nicholls (07:08) Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (07:08) And they're working strengths and weaknesses, like the weaknesses of the specific riders.
That's a big thing that, in a bunch ride, we need to figure out: where are you getting dropped? What do we need to improve?
It's not just go out and do more of those bunch rides to keep making yourself feel bad.
Cam Nicholls (07:23) Okay. So someone's listening to this and, maybe I should get a bit more specific so I can tackle my local group ride with a little bit more confidence, better training in the legs, better conditioning. What should they be thinking about?
And I think I'll preface this by saying you don't necessarily need to stop the ride. And it may not be a group ride. It could just be some people love going to their favourite Strava segment, or it could be a loop.
And I want to average 25 miles around this loop. That's my goal, right?
And you can still go do that. You can still go to the group ride, but it's what you do surrounding that which can better support you.
So the example that I wanted to bring in here is Belle, RCA member.
I know you've done a bit of research here on what training that she's done, but she came to us wanting to improve her racing, but she also loved local group riding. And she lives in my area in Noosa.
We've got a bunch ride called Boreen Point on Thursdays. And she had been dropped every single time she tried to get around that ride.
And, of course, like any bunch ride, it's not a climb, but it's a bit of a rise where everyone attacks with about maybe 15, 20 minutes to go. So there's a bit of fatigue in the legs.
There's a rise, everyone kicks. And that's where she was getting dropped repeatedly.
She signed up with the RCA about two months ago, working with Cav.
And then I went on the same Boreen Point group ride last week and she was there. And not only did she make it through, but she was actually ripping a few turns.
And I've got some footage because she's using the Insta360, which we'll overlay.
So I thought this is a really good example of what we talked about. She's got specific to her goals, which is racing, but also group riding.
Yeah. So you've dug into the training data and you can give us an example of kind of what she's done that's helped her take that next step with her group riding.
Ryan Thomas (09:15) Yeah. So it's actually quite interesting. I even spoke to Cav before we did this and I was like, what did you do differently?
Like, because she was a bit of content. Like, I can, I went back through and looked at her time in zones for power and heart rate for up until the 10 weeks before she started with the RCA, and then the 10 weeks since she's been with the RCA.
Okay. And the difference is quite dramatic in terms of the before and after. And we can overlay that here too, if you want.
Cam Nicholls (09:42) Any call-outs specifically?
Ryan Thomas (09:45) The overall volume dropped a bit. So she was training quite a lot before, but it was inconsistent.
So had some big weeks up around 20 hours and then some really small weeks up around five hours. And, yeah, it varied quite a lot before.
Now she's spent a good 10 weeks where, up over that 10 hours...
Cam Nicholls (10:07) Okay.
Ryan Thomas (10:08) Every week on week. Strategic easy weeks in there, but it's like, it's very obvious. You can see it. It's specific.
Cam Nicholls (10:15) Yep. Okay. That's quite good for, because for a bit of context, she's also, she's got a child, you know, she's a mum, she's got a full-time job.
So she's got, like, you know, a lot of the logistical considerations most recreational and amateurs have.
So it's interesting that she's been able to get consistent with it, perhaps because it's laid out in front of her.
Ryan Thomas (10:33) A hundred percent. Yeah. And that's the benefit of having a coach and a bit of a plug for the RCA there.
Cam Nicholls (10:39) Yeah. Okay.
Ryan Thomas (10:41) Yeah. But, like, time in zones as well, like a lot more specific in terms of heart rate in Zone 2.
So not just noodling around. So there's a bit of that, but I think the main thing here in terms of specificity for Belle was the inclusion of proper hard work.
So sprints was one thing that has been in there almost every week for a while now.
Cam Nicholls (11:02) And going back on her data, she wasn't doing sprints previously?
Ryan Thomas (11:05) No, not really. Not specific sprints. Like, she was probably throwing in some accelerations here and there.
Cam Nicholls (11:10) To try and hang on to the Boreen Point Thursday group ride?
Ryan Thomas (11:12) Yeah. But yesterday she did a five-second best power three-quarters of the way through a group ride, in that group ride. So five-second best under fatigued legs.
So big progression there.
And I can, we can overlay something else here. It's an interesting chart in TrainingPeaks where it shows your four-week peak powers across 365 days.
So you can track it and see the progression in five-second and one-minute power has been a big difference. The five-, 20- and 60-minute hasn't changed much in the last 365 days, but the five-second or one-minute, dramatic.
Cam Nicholls (11:48) Today's podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy's Weight Training for Cyclists program.
And if you're listening from the Northern Hemisphere, now is a very good time to start thinking about strength training as you head towards the winter months and begin building towards next season. Because if you do strength training right, you're looking at about a five to 10% gain.
But the problem many recreational cyclists face is they know they should be lifting weights, but they're not sure what exercises to do, how heavy to lift, nor how to fit strength work around their cycling.
And that's exactly why we have created this program with Dr. Aaron Turner, a strength and conditioning specialist with 20 years of experience working with athletes, including elite-level cyclists.
In our program, you'll get a beginner, intermediate and advanced strength program, all downloadable, backed by six detailed video tutorials, and then 60 individual exercise video demonstrations showing you exactly what to do and how to integrate it with your riding.
The goal is simple: more power, better durability and improved efficiency on the bike.
And you'll get lifetime access to this program for only $147 USD, backed by our money-back guarantee.
If you're keen, head to the Road Cycling Academy website and check out our Weight Training for Cyclists program.
Now let's get back to the podcast.
Okay.
Ryan Thomas (13:17) Across that year.
Cam Nicholls (13:18) And that's often group riding where you get dropped.
Ryan Thomas (13:20) That's the difference.
Cam Nicholls (13:22) The short, sharp efforts.
Ryan Thomas (13:23) Yeah. I think that's the specificity that a lot of people who would, if you're listening, why, if you're getting dropped in the group ride, like, majority of the time, it's when you're going all out.
You're never getting dropped in Zone 3 or Zone 4, like a lot of that...
Cam Nicholls (13:36) Or controlled rolling turns.
Ryan Thomas (13:37) Controlled rolling turns. You're not really getting dropped there.
It's when they drop the hammer and you go in Zone 6, 7, you go on and you're on your limit. And that's where the difference is.
So that hard VO2 sprint work was the big thing that Cav said he started implementing. Proper sprint work, proper anaerobic and VO2 work.
He was also doing fatigued efforts. So doing some sprints or some VO2s and then doing some tempo. So throwing a bit of mixed variable work in there, which is similar to what we do in the Beat Your Mates workout that you mentioned before.
But, yeah, the big difference is a sprint.
Cam Nicholls (14:10) And a sprint and anaerobic. And anaerobic's like your one minute.
Ryan Thomas (14:13) Yeah. 30-second to 90-second efforts.
Cam Nicholls (14:16) Yeah. So can you just give us an example of what the sprint session looks like and what the anaerobic session looks like?
If somebody's out there listening, oh, okay, maybe I should incorporate some of this.
Because I think a lot of people think that they're doing it. I do sprints. I do a sprint in the bunch ride, or I get to the end of my Zone 2 ride and I do a sprint.
But it's not a targeted one-hour sessio
Mon, 24 Aug 2026 - 19min - 99 - How Pro Cycling Teams Are Testing Durability (& What We Can Learn)
Summary:
What is cycling durability, how do professional cycling teams measure it, and could it be more important than your FTP or VO2 max?
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, Cam Nicholls is joined by RCA coach and exercise physiologist Ben Treble to unpack emerging research into one of cycling's hottest performance topics: durability and fatigue resistance.
Fresh from the Science & Cycling Conference in Barcelona, Ben shares insights from unpublished data presented by Red Bull–BORA–hansgrohe, exploring how WorldTour teams are attempting to identify riders who can continue producing high power after thousands of kilojoules of work.
Because having a big FTP or VO2 max is one thing. Being able to produce that power after several hard hours in the saddle is something very different.
Ben explains how cycling durability can be measured by comparing fresh power with power produced after significant accumulated work, why elite riders can experience remarkably little power decay, and why some amateur cyclists may see substantially larger declines.
We also explore an emerging metric involving four-minute torque, which Red Bull–BORA–hansgrohe has investigated as a potential predictor of durability in younger elite riders.
But does the same relationship exist in recreational and Masters cyclists?
Ben has started analysing real-world data from Masters cyclists competing in UCI Gran Fondo events — and his preliminary findings don't necessarily match what is being seen in elite riders.
In this episode: What does "durability" actually mean in cycling? Why FTP alone doesn't tell the whole performance story How professional cycling teams test fatigue resistance Fresh vs fatigued five-minute power Why accumulated kilojoules matter How much power cyclists lose after several hours of riding The difference between FTP, VO2 max and durability Why WorldTour teams are investing heavily in durability How durability is being used for talent identification What the "compound score" is Four-minute torque and its potential relationship with durability Unpublished insights from Red Bull–BORA–hansgrohe Why elite cycling data may not translate directly to Masters cyclists Ben's preliminary analysis of Masters and UCI Gran Fondo riders What recreational cyclists can learn from the latest durability researchIf you've ever felt strong at the beginning of a ride but watched your power disappear after three or four hours, this episode explores the science behind why some cyclists maintain their performance better than others — and how researchers are trying to measure it.
Ben is also looking for additional Masters/UCI Gran Fondo cyclists willing to contribute training and racing data to his ongoing analysis.
📧 Contact: ben@roadcyclingacademy.com 🌐 Road Cycling Academy: https://roadcyclingacademy.com
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.836) Welcome to the RCA podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists, and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster, and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, where today I'm joined by the RCA's science geek who's now based out of Switzerland, Ben Treble. And as per his nickname at the RCA, Ben has been at a cycling and science conference in Barcelona, and he's got some unpublished data from one of the world's biggest cycling teams, Tour de France teams, that he's going to share with us.
So this is a bit of a an inside scoop. Are you allowed to share this info, Ben? Or like are we gonna get it in a bit of trouble here? They didn't say anything.
Ben Treble (01:02.848) I didn't see the first like two minutes, so Okay. That was often my trick. I mean, if they gave us a and there's no NDA anyway. I'm not sharing photos of it, it's verbatim. Some of this I feel like let's just do it.
Cam Nicholls (01:05.112) Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (01:16.514) Okay. Good.
Ben Treble (01:17.826) But hot topic, hey? it's on durability.
Cam Nicholls (01:22.414) Okay, and which team are we talking about? Which Tour de France team?
Ben Treble (01:25.696) Red Bull Bora Handscrow. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So David De Klerk from Red Bull, I think he's one of their performance managers. He may also be a coach, I can't remember. Sorry, David. he gave a very nice presentation in Barcelona on some of the work that they're doing with some metrics to measure say durability and and performance.
Cam Nicholls (01:28.437) look at.
Ben Treble (01:55.116) beyond the the standard metrics of say threshold and stuff. So this is actually very big business in the World Tours, which is we would bucket it under talent identification or talent ID. Why is this important? When you're a World Tour team, you have a budget and at some point you have a pipeline of riders and the performance of those riders or finding the next Tade Pogachar, that becomes one of your biggest goals. Can you find the next Tade Poggachar?
And how do we know if a rider's going to be good in the future? How do we measure that?
Cam Nicholls (02:28.29) Well what are the standard mechanisms for testing durability now? Because to me it's such a untangible because durability is the ability to produce, you know, high bouts of power essentially after long periods, long fatiguing periods in the saddle. So is is there a standard testing protocol? Because I guess, you know, what what we hear is, you know, often in articles on online is the twenty minute FTP test.
But that's not a durability test.
Ben Treble (03:01.344) You might argue in some cases that in part a threshold test. It could be a ramp test for FTP. It could be a multiple maximal efforts for critical power test. Ultimately those are testing your threshold, which still represents durability. How much power can you push for how long?
Cam Nicholls (03:20.152) Twenty minutes, yeah.
Ben Treble (03:21.44) It's still a a durable marker. But I think the difference is those things were always trying to measure, at least in my books, the gold standard threshold, which was metabolic, your lactate steady state, MLSS. Right. And this is very difficult to test well. So people come up with easy tests you can do from home that they found some correlation to MLSS that was actually really poor. And that's how we came up with FTP.
That's my that's my nutshell history that scientists will debate forever.
Cam Nicholls (03:55.352) So is there a gold standard dura durability test?
Ben Treble (03:58.76) No. You know, it's been a hot topic for the last two, even three years at Science and Cycling Conference. And I don't think anybody has agreed on a single test that says this measures durability. There are multiple tests out there. Some of them are quite similar. I would say the most common type of testing to look at durability and assess it would be to do a ride where you
deplete a certain amount of kilojoules. So let's say you have to deplete, I don't know, 2,000 kilojoules, 3000 kilojoules, 4,000 kilojoules. And then you have to do a maximal effort at the end. And they look at, let's say, let's just use five minute power, for example. They get you to do a fresh five minute power test. Like what is your best five minute power you can do in a fresh state? Then they go and do these, you know, depleted efforts.
And then you have to try and do your best. How close to this five-minute fresh power can you get? And what is the percentage decay in this power? Now, different teams and different riders use different durations of this. So this is where we see differences in the Jubilee protocols and why there's not a single one necessarily. For GC riders, they might use a longer, they might use your 20-minute power. So you go do a 20-minute fresh test, you do a depleted ride.
If you're a world tour writer, it's probably going to be even 4,000 kilojoules because that's closer to what you would have in, you know, a hard hilly stage. And then what is the decay in your power, your 20-minute power? And that is something they see. They talk about this in Tade Pogachar a lot. That's where he's different to a lot of other riders, right? His decay in like 20 it was quoted somewhere. His decay in his 20 minute power.
After like four thousand kilojoules is only one percent.
Cam Nicholls (05:56.738) Huh.
Ben Treble (05:57.912) course. You and I are probably like minimal fifteen percent, twenty percent declines. Amateurs can be thirty plus percent decline in their power after doing only say two and a half thousand kilojoules, not four thousand. That is a very big difference. So that's probably the most common method of durability testing that I've seen across the conference and different teams and what's used. but I would say there is no single standard protocol
There's big questions even around this protocol. So we don't have to go too far down this rabbit hole. But for example, when you do let's say you have to do three thousand kilojoul depletion, you can deplete three thousand kilojoules by doing, you know, five hours of zone two, or you could do it by doing high intensity efforts for one and a half hours.
Cam Nicholls (06:47.676) Of course.
Ben Treble (06:48.93) You know, doing a fresh versus a depleted, doing another twenty minute test at the end of high intensity intervals for two hours versus four hours of zone two, those are very different depletions that lead you into this. So this was a topic that was brought up by David in his presentation, as he said something they're working on is trying to find a way to standardize that depletion. But at the moment they predominantly use training data because it's too difficult to pull writers out and say,
literally go do a 3,000 kilojoul depletion and do this effort. They typically get them to do a training ride or look at training data where they did a 20 minute PB or close to after a big day out.
Cam Nicholls (07:29.524) Okay, that makes more sense. So what what was the inside scoop?
Ben Treble (07:34.37) Yeah, let's chat about it. So on that topic, what was presented? So we'll start with something that's not Red Bull on their own came up with, right? So beyond the standard measures of performance. So the joiner, there's a thing called the joiner model of performance predictors, which predominantly looks at efficiency, VO2 max, and threshold. Durability is considered this fourth element that needs to be added to this classic model of performance predictors that was.
Put together by a scientist called Joyner. But how we measure it is the big question. Red Bull and a bunch of other scientists came up with an idea called compound score to start with. That was their first, I would argue, attempt at measuring durability to some respects. And compound score is easily calculated as it's your absolute power output. Typically they use five minutes. So let's say you can do 300 watts for five minutes in a fresh state.
And then you multiply it by the same five minute power, but in its relative form. So you would take your 300 watts, divide it by whatever your weight is, let's say 70 kilograms. So then you just multiply the absolute power by the relative power five minute. And you get this score. It could be anywhere from say, I don't know, a thousand up to three thousand, roughly, right? And they came up with a table of benchmarks that kind of says depending on your score, this would be where you sit. And they found some
relationships between high people who had high compound scores typically got more podium results.
Cam Nicholls (09:08.014) What do you mean compound scores?
Ben Treble (09:10.008) So what I just talked about, so the compound score. Yeah. Yeah. If we look at your absolute five minute power output multiplied by the relative power output, so watts per kilo, you get this score. And let's say it's two thousand points. Yeah. People who had this higher number were more likely to get a podium in a race. Yep. And they said, well, we know that the joinum model alone is not predicting like if you have a high VO2 max, it doesn't tell us that you're going to get a podium result anymore.
You need to have a high VO2 max, but it doesn't tell us if you're going to win the race. Hmm. So they're saying what else is contributing to people winning? So they're trying to measure that. That's this and that means when they know how to measure that, they could potentially in talent ID find the new Tate pogger chart earlier. That's where this is coming from.
Cam Nicholls (09:58.914) Okay.
Ben Treble (10:02.414) So they started with compound score. they found a relationship between higher compound scores and results that was not found with, say, just pure watts per kilo threshold, VO two max, those other measures that are more, let's say, traditional. Mm-hmm. But then they started to see some differences where it didn't necessarily predict race results, especially in juniors. And they're saying, Okay, maybe there's something else to this. We need to look at other metrics. So
Let's dig into the study. What was presented? So, David, really what they're looking at here. So we're going to go back to the sort of durability test we talked about before, where we have a decay and the Red Bull team are using their five minute mean maximal power. So the fresh five minute power versus their depleted five minute power. And they take a percentage of this decline. So maybe it's two percent, 10%, whatever it is.
They take that percentage decline and compare it against other variables to try and find a relationship. Is there something that is able to identify who has smaller decline or decay in their mean maximal power? The reason they use five minutes is because five minute mean maximal power is a very good indicator of your VO2 max. So you might be able to argue the decline in VO2 max after
3,000 or 3,500 kilojoules is also a very important contributor to performance. So what they did is they looked at they used 3,000 kilojoulle depletion for the under 19s and they did three and a half thousand kilojoulle depletion for under 23s. So they have a fairly large pool of riders in their database and they looked at all the training data and they compared this decay percentage to fresh four minute torque value in Newton meters.
Cam Nicholls (11:58.776) Today's podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. I know from personal experiences that one of the most frustrating things as a recreational and amateur road cyclist when you're wanting to improve is putting in more time and effort on the bike, but never reaching the level you know you're capable of. So often people start riding more because they think that's the answer, but the harder they work, the more frustrated they become because the results just don't match the effort.
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Steve increased his critical power by 35 watts in 12 weeks. That's a 15.7% improvement. And he enjoyed the coach experience so much that he actually continued with one-to-one coaching following. So if you've had a gut full of putting in the work without getting the results, you know you're capable of. We'd love to help. Head to the Road Cycling Academy website and check out
Cam Nicholls (14:17.888) Our 12 week custom training plan. And as a thank you to our listeners of this podcast, for the first five people, use the code RCA ten and you'll receive 10% off. Once those five spots are gone, the offer ends. Let's get back to the podcast. Okay. So how do people know what their fresh four minute talk value is in Newton meters? Not something I've looked at before, Ben.
Ben Treble (14:44.524) Yeah, do you have a power meter can?
Cam Nicholls (14:46.902) I do, yes. Asioma.
Ben Treble (14:48.942) Do you spin the pedals? Then we can measure torque. So your power meter, well, when to measure power, you essentially have to have velocity times torque. That's that is power. It's velocity times torque. So people who spin more need less torque to produce the same power. And then people who have slower cadence, so they s they spin less, they're producing more torque to achieve the same power as the spinners. Yep.
So this is when we think of people who are more aerobic, right? They can lean more on this producing power through the cardiovascular system by spinning more, right? High cadence. And then you get the people like probably more you and me. we have more muscle mass. So we probably naturally lean more towards producing our power from a torque component of the equation, right? We have more type two fibers. So that's the torque component. If you have a power meter, pretty much every modern power meter is going to be calculating.
Talk or at least estimating it. Some power meters are better at measuring torque through the whole stroke cycle, but to get a four minute average it's they're probably pretty much every power meter is measuring this.
Cam Nicholls (16:00.616) So for the layman out there, and I'm certainly a layman, the four minute talk number is gonna be different to your four minute power number because it's not taking into account how much you're spinning. Yep. So now you can go back to what you were saying before I interrupted with my question.
Ben Treble (16:10.51) Correct.
Ben Treble (16:16.472) Yeah. And if you think of torque, where is it also coming from a little bit? If you think of people who do this low cadence or high torque training, it's often about improving the fatigue ability of the fibers and the motor units in the muscle itself. Right. People who can tolerate higher torques often have like the the muscle fibers can tolerate more fatigue. Yep. So that's why they were like, okay, this let's look at the relationship between torque.
And the decay in the mean maximal power. And they found a strong relationship here. So that for the scientists who are listening, the R score 0.49, P score was 0.03. So they found a, in terms of science, that is a good relationship between fresh absolute four-minute talk value and the percentage in decay. So people who had higher fresh four-minute talk values had smaller percentages in the decay.
of their main maximal power.
Cam Nicholls (17:17.643) Okay.
Ben Treble (17:18.594) And that was across both the 3,000 kJ depletion in the under-19s and the 3,500 kJ in the under-23. David Declerc, who did this presentation, didn't present data on the world tour riders themselves, but he indicated it's going to be published soon. And I imagine it's kind of indicated it's gonna share the same story, but they looked at using
Tue, 18 Aug 2026 - 26min - 98 - The Latest Science on Carbs for Cycling: How Much Do You Really Need?
How many carbohydrates per hour do cyclists actually need — 60g, 90g, 120g or even 150g?
Professional cyclists are consuming more carbohydrates than ever, with reports of Tour de France riders pushing towards 120–150+ grams of carbs per hour. But does more carbohydrate actually mean better performance — and should recreational and amateur cyclists be trying to copy the pros?
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, Cam Nicholls is joined by RCA coach and resident science geek Ben Treble, fresh from the Science & Cycling Conference in Barcelona, to discuss emerging research into high-carbohydrate fuelling for cycling performance.
Ben breaks down where the traditional 60–90g of carbohydrate per hour recommendation came from, how glucose and fructose are absorbed by the body, and what the latest research suggests happens when cyclists increase their intake to 120g or even 150g per hour.
They also discuss why simply eating more isn't necessarily better, how professional cyclists periodise carbohydrate intake depending on the demands of each stage, and why gut training may be one of the biggest untapped performance opportunities for amateur cyclists.
In this episode:
60g vs 90g vs 120g vs 150g of carbs per hour How much carbohydrate cyclists actually need Why 90g/hour became the standard recommendation Glucose vs fructose absorption explained Does 120g/hour improve cycling performance? Why 150g/hour may offer little additional benefit What Tour de France riders are really consuming How the pros periodise carbohydrate intake Gut training for cyclists Why amateur cyclists often eat less than they think How to gradually increase your carbohydrate intake Fuelling hard sessions vs easy Zone 2 rides When lower-carbohydrate or fasted training may still have a place How better fuelling can improve performance and recoveryFor most recreational cyclists, the goal isn't to immediately chase 120 or 150 grams per hour. As Ben explains, consistently reaching around 90g/hour during demanding sessions and events — after progressively training the gut to tolerate it — can already represent a significant opportunity for improved performance and recovery.
Road Cycling Academy helps recreational and amateur cyclists train smarter, improve their performance and get more from the limited training time they have available.
One-to-One Cycling Coaching: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/
12 Week Custom Plan: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/cycling-plan-custom/
#CyclingNutrition #CyclingTraining #Carbohydrates #CyclingPerformance #RoadCycling #CyclingPodcast #TourDeFrance #EnduranceCycling #SportsNutrition #CyclingScience
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.826) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, where today I'm joined by the RCA's Science Geek based in Switzerland now, Ben Treble. And Ben has recently, as per his Science Geek nickname, been to a science conference in Barcelona. And he's been to a number of presentations, seen some research, which I believe is yet to be published. And we're going to dig into some of that. And it's relating to carbohydrate intake. Now,
I know this is not new news, Ben. Is it taking more carbs to help you improve your cycling performance? So it's not so much about that. It's more about the level that we should be targeting now, which is therefore, I guess the research is becoming more specific to okay, is it ninety grams good enough? Is 120 grams good enough? Should we be looking at 150 grams? Like, where do we shut the door?
I believe that's what it was relating to. Is that is that correct, Ben?
Ben Treble (01:30.028) Yeah, it was looking at I mean, I think this is just a hot topic. It came up at another conference as well after Science and Cycling, which was at Barcelona. But I think an enormous amount of research in nutrition has only historically looked at, say, either zero, sixty or ninety. Ninety was for a long time considered the if you want to say the ceiling or like high carb intake. Now we have some research that looked at
a hundred and twenty grams per hour. And I would say there is coming soon, there will be some published research on a hundred and fifty grams per hour as well. So hot press. What is the takeaway at the end of the day? You need to fuel it's very individualized for one. And two, you need to fuel for whatever your your efforts are. But I personally I wouldn't be at this stage anyway, thinking even
Dreaming of a hundred and fifty grams per hour.
Cam Nicholls (02:32.01) Okay. So what about let's back the bus up. So for a long time ninety was considered, you know, that's where we should be targeting for optimal performance per hour, ninety grams per hour, four R intense training sessions or four hours when we want to go go hard, whether it's a group ride, whether it's a fondole event or whatever it might be. And of course, if people are out there listening and th and it and thinking to themselves, Well, ninety just sounds ridiculous, or even sixty sounds ridiculous.
and maybe this is a conversation for another day, but you know, don't start there. You've got to work your way towards it. But let's just say somebody's at ninety grams now, they've been training, they've worked their way up towards ninety grams per hour for the key sessions. Is there any science which says actually suggests that if you actually then worked your way from ninety to one hundred and twenty grams per hour? And then we can touch on one fifty shortly, is there much of a performance?
benefit f to increasing from ninety to one hundred and twenty? Should I be looking at that, Ben, as I'm now training for Masters Nationals, starting to increase my carb intake? Yeah, am I going to benefit from one hundred and twenty?
Ben Treble (03:39.584) If the duration and the intensity is high enough, these I think it's worthwhile if you have the capacity to do the gut training and your gut can handle it, at least to test if your gut can handle ninety to a hundred and twenty. I think the reality is that for a lot of people, to be honest, especially amateurs, they really struggle even just to do ninety. It's eating a lot of food. It's a lot of gels or a lot of bars or a lot of whatever combination you want to use.
And that was also really clear. So there was a couple of presentations. There was one that was quite interesting from I don't know if they were, sorry, if they were a researcher, I can't remember the name, but they were from precision hydration. So take this as you will. There's obviously some commercial bias, but they have collected, went and collected over the last couple of years enormous levels of data on carbohydrate utilization across cycling events, triathlon events, like a bunch of endurance events and running events.
And they compared age groups and genders on what were people actually managing to eat during these events. And for the most part, a large majority of people were in the like 40 to 80 grams per hour. Which tells me two things. One, people often think they eat eat more than they actually do in the event. Two, a lot of people struggle from an amateur point of view, and this in my coaching is something I've experienced.
They struggle with gut issues and they struggle with the the logistics, like taking my hand off the handlebars to get gels out of my pocket to eat, and then it's a bumpy road or a descent, so then I'm not eating, or I drop the gel. Like these factors are impacting their ability to get 90 grams per hour, maybe more than anything else. So practicing eating on the bike is probably a big takeaway from this. But let's back this up. Where did the like 90, 60, 90 grams?
come from. I think it's kind of important to just reestablish some of the basics. So I am now talking about we eat food. This predominantly what we're caring about here is the sugars, the carbohydrates. How do those sugars go from being in your gut to producing ATP or energy in the muscle? Right? Step one is they have to get absorbed through the gut into the bloodstream. The blood then transports the sugars to the working muscle group to to utilize.
Ben Treble (06:04.166) For the sugar to be absorbed through the gut into the bloodstream, there are some things that are called transporters. And different sugar types have different transporters. So the SGLT1 transporter is the glucose transporter, and it has a ceiling. It's rate limited. This is biochemical math. It's around 60 grams per hour. So you can take in 200 grams of glucose if you want. Doesn't mean your body's
Actually, going to absorb the 200 grams through the gut any faster. That's kind of this is still very solid science that has not changed. The second transporter we care about is the GLUT5 transporter. This was a big revelation in the science many years ago because we realized actually fructose, which is a a different type of sugar to glucose, has a different transporter.
That means that if we take, for example, 60 grams of glucose, and we can now take, say, 30 grams of fructose, because it's going through a different transporter, we might be able to get more sugar into the bloodstream and to the muscle. So that's and there was typically thought to be around 30 grams per hour, was the limit of fructose. But that was more so due to the fact that's just the amount that the research papers picked in the first days, and it was also that's what
The participants could tolerate without GI issues. Keep in mind in science world, you know, they're not necessarily bringing in gut-trained athletes. They're bringing in normal people who are not gut trained. So they can't go and give them 50 grams of fructose because they'll get GI issues and pull out of the study. And that is where the we went from 60 to 90 grams per hour. That's where that kind of came from, because we went from just glucose.
To the glucose and fructose, we have two transporters. 60 and 30 grams was your 90 grams per hour. That has evolved. We realize that the gut is highly trainable. You can most likely take in quite a bit more fructose, but your limiter is probably more around your individual gut tolerance than anything. So some people are able to tolerate 50 grams of fructose. And probably the transporter sealing is rate limited around 50 to 60 grams per hour as well.
Ben Treble (08:26.092) And that's what gets you to this hundred and twenty grams per hour sort of carbohydrate rate that we start to see now. So the main presentation was from Bernardo Nortz. He's from Liverpool University in the UK. And I got a couple points for you, unless you have any questions yet, Ken. Are you with me?
Cam Nicholls (08:44.36) I'm I'm I'm completely with you, yep. Cool.
Ben Treble (08:47.882) so some key points from the study. So exogenous oxidation, this is carbohydrate, so exogenous oxidation and whole body oxidation rates across the that range from 60 to 120 grams per hour had pretty minimal difference. So this again, this still supports the notion for the most part that these rate limiters in the transporters in the gut still exist and they haven't changed. So people taking 150 grams per hour.
question becomes what other mechanisms are occurring or what other changes beyond taking more sugar through into the bloodstream are occurring that help improve performance? Like because we know people who say, I do 150 grams per hour, who don't have gut issues, say that their performance is better. Maybe it's not because they're getting more glucose or sugars into the bloodstream, but there's something else going on.
That helps improve performance, right? I think that's kind of an important part. So
Cam Nicholls (09:50.936) So what what could that be? What's the hypotheticals being thrown around?
Ben Treble (09:54.85) Yeah, well this is what this paper looked at, which is exciting. So the major difference, right? Now if we think of when you produce energy, it's fueled predominantly from, in layman's terms, carbohydrates and fats. So if you were to say you produce a hundred watts, I don't know, at sort of a a very low intensity, let's say it's around fifty fifty. Fifty percent of that hundred watts is produced is fueled from carbohydrates and fifty percent is from fat oxidation.
There is a crossing over point where the fat oxidation, like you you you you need more carbohydrates than fat, and this crossing point in this balance between the two fuel sources, the timing of this crossing point is what shifts with these different carbohydrate rates. So it occurs later in duration. So if we go from between sixty to a hundred and twenty grams per hour, the carbohydrate oxidation rates were
not scientifically different. There were very small differences. But the difference was prolonging the crossing points at which you have this crossing point from fat and carbohydrate oxidation rates, which is a good thing. So essentially comes to that verbatim that you're reserving some of your glycogen for later, right? Because you're doing a bit more fatty oxidation.
There were no differences at all between 120 to 150 grams per hour in whole body carbohydrate oxidation. So there are small differences from ninety to one twenty, which you could argue at a high performance sense is worthwhile chasing because we want to chase those one and two percenters. But they had no difference from one hundred twenty to one fifty. So I don't I'm yet to see evidence that shows why one fifty is worth chasing. And the general
feeling in the room from any of the real hardcore scientists was ninety to one twenty is kind of where you need to focus. This one fifty world is not worth it.
Cam Nicholls (11:55.968) Right. So so why do you think you know you hear about some of these Tour de France riders and and triathletes pushing even one fifty plus? I've I think I've heard one sixty, or even perhaps even more. W are they just doing it because it's it's a challenge? Or are they doing
Ben Treble (12:15.148) I think it's a combination of things. One, I think their guts are highly trained, including the fructose transporter system. I also think that at a hundred and fifty grams per hour, they're taking it for a very short period, right? They're not taking hundred and fifty grams for the full eight hours necessarily at a you know, a G C stage day, right? Like a queen stage. And they're certainly not taking 150 grams per hour every day.
That was very clear. There were a few case study presentations from world tour teams on what their riders were actually taking during grand tours. I think there was actually a really good case study on Jai Hindley, I think it was. They kind of took the name out, but I'm pretty sure it was Dry Hindley. And on their, you know, their easy rest dates for the GC guys, so keep that in mind. On a flat stage, they were only taking in, say, 60 grams per hour. And then on a on a hilly stage, maybe they were going to the ninety.
potentially if it was a hard hard one, move it up to 120 during hard periods of the race. And then on queen stages is all their key days is when they were trying to lift it to maybe say 150. So it's very periodized and individualized. They had riders who only go up to 100 because it's what they tolerate. So I wouldn't say 150 is what everybody is taking and they're certainly not taking it every day. But the media
catches it right and they come out and say, everybody's doing one fifty all the time or one writer gives some verbatim in an interview at some point they were taking a hundred and sixty grams per hour or something and it gets taken out of context, I think.
Cam Nicholls (13:52.28) Today's podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. I know from personal experiences that one of the most frustrating things as a recreational and amateur road cyclist when you're wanting to improve is putting in more time and effort on the bike, but never reaching the level you know you're capable of. So often people start riding more because they think that's the answer, but the harder they work, the more frustrated they become because the results just don't match the effort. And eventually
Many people start to ponder maybe this is just my level. But I can tell you after seven years of being involved with recreational and amateur road cyclers through the Road Cycling Academy that it's not your level. And that's exactly why we've created the Road Cycling Academy's 12-week custom plan. It's a plan designed specifically for recreational and amateur road cyclers who aren't quite ready for ongoing one-to-one coaching, but know they've hit a plateau and they want to do something about it.
It all starts with a one-on-one consultation with one of our experienced coaches. We'll learn about your riding history, your goals, your available training time, and your not negotiable rides. Next, we'll guide you through some testing so we can establish your accurate training zones. And from there, the coach will build a fully personalized, periodized 12-week training plan in training peaks that's designed around your life with coach support throughout the entire program.
And the results speak for themselves. Recently, we've had Ryan come to us wanting to improve his tour to Brisbane result. That's a UCI qualifier. And following his custom 12-week plan, he didn't just crack the top 20, which was one of his goals. He actually finished third overall on the podium, calling the program, and you can see this on our Google Reviews, an absolute game changer. Steve increased his critical power by 30.
Five watts in 12 weeks. That's a 15.7% improvement. And he enjoyed the coach experience so much that he actually continued with one to one coaching following. So if you've had a gut full of putting in the work without getting the results, you know you're capable of. We'd love to help. Head to the Road Cycling Academy website and check out our 12 week custom training plan. And as a thank you to our listeners of this podcast.
Cam Nicholls (16:17.144) For the first five people, use the code RCA ten and you'll receive ten percent off. Once those five spots are gone, the offer ends. Let's get back to the podcast. Yeah. So it's interesting what the preliminary research is suggesting from your session in Barcelona at this science expo was that yeah, the difference between one ninety and and one twenty is is marginal.
And the difference between one twenty and one fifty is don't even worry about it.
Ben Treble (16:51.79) Pretty much. And the I think the difference maybe what we'll see is there'll be I mean, there's more signs coming out. And I think what we may find is the difference between one twenty to one fifty. I don't think we'll ever see a difference in whole body oxidation rates, but I think what you might find is and what the theory is is that your glycogen resynthesis rates are faster post exercise. And this is something that
Grand Tour riders or people doing multi-day races, this becomes important, right? Because you how fast can you replenish your muscle glycogen and your liver glycogen levels for the next day? So that's a very important. But for the large majority of amateur riders, especially I think in our community, they're doing single day events. And so that's not actually as important for them. So they don't need to risk GI issues for that, in my eyes, for the most part.
Cam Nicholls (17:49.526) Yep. And let's face it, you know, going back to the standard the gold standard ninety is is still quite challenging to get to. even I'm sh you know, struggle as I'm ramping my training back up. I haven't done much training in the last, I'd say, twelve months and therefore haven't been doing any form of gut
Wed, 12 Aug 2026 - 29min - 97 - Tour de France Cooling Secrets: Should Amateur Cyclists Be Paying Attention?
What can recreational cyclists learn from the cooling strategies used by the Tour de France peloton?
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, Cam Nicholls is joined by RCA coach and exercise physiologist Ben Treble to unpack the science behind cooling strategies, heat acclimation, hydration and performance.
With the 2026 Tour de France being one of the hottest on record, riders were seen using ice baths, cooling gloves, slushies and cold water immersion before stages. But do these strategies actually improve performance, and are they worth using for amateur cyclists?
Ben explains the physiology of riding in hot conditions, why heat dramatically reduces cycling performance, and the evidence behind practical cooling methods that everyday riders can use before and during training and racing.
Whether you're preparing for a gran fondo, summer road race, Zwift event or simply trying to survive hot weekend rides, this episode is packed with practical, science-backed advice.
In this episode: Why the 2026 Tour de France put cooling strategies in the spotlight What happens to your body when you ride in hot conditions How heat affects power output, recovery and endurance performance Heat acclimation vs simply riding in hot weather Ice baths, cooling gloves and pre-cooling strategies explained Do Slurpees actually improve cycling performance? The truth about pouring water over yourself during rides Cooling vests, ice socks and cold towels Does menthol actually help? Practical cooling tips for recreational and Masters cyclists Common mistakes riders make when racing in the heatIf you're looking to perform better in hot conditions, improve your endurance, or simply understand the science behind what the professionals are doing, this episode is for you.
Learn more about Road Cycling Academy coaching: https://roadcyclingacademy.com
Podcast Sponsor: https://onekloudx.com.au/
#cycling #cyclingtraining #tourdefrance #endurancetraining #heattraining #cyclingperformance #roadcycling #granfondo #masterscycling #hydration #cyclingpodcast
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.826) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, where today I am joined by the RCA's science geek based in Switzerland now, Ben Treble. And today we're going to go through well, I wanted to ask Ben about the Tour de France, actually, because it's just been and gone. And there was a lot of scenes of riders with their arms in icy water or arms and hands in icy water. And I was like, that's interesting. Cooling strategies, Ben. But does this like
relate to, you know, everyone that's watching them, we're all recreational and amateurs at the end of the day. Like, should we be paying attention to this? Like, is it something that, you know, the mere mortal should be leaning into? Should we be dunking our arms and hands in ice before we go out for our rides?
Ben Treble (01:13.91) I think you should pay attention to it, Cam. How feasible is it for an amateur to pull off the same strategy though, at a fondo race? Probably pretty limited.
Cam Nicholls (01:24.43) True. So why should I be leaning into it? What does the science say about the cooling strategies? Especially when it's hot, of course. Like, you know, if you live in Canada and you're you're riding in the middle of winter, you're probably not gonna worry about it, are you?
Ben Treble (01:37.706) No, not necessarily. You're probably worried about hypothermia instead. Yeah, look, I think the tour is a pretty special case this year. I'm over in Switzerland and we've we had some pretty severe heat waves even here for Switzerland, which you'd think as an Australian I would be pretty well well established to cope with, but it was I can tell you it was some of the hottest periods I've gone through.
The two are I think I read this stat the other day. The two are averaged in the first two weeks thirty point eight degrees. Now, that may not sound super crazy, but to be an average for two weeks where every day is over thirty, the previous record was twenty-five point nine in twenty-two. That is enormous. Like to have a a two week average temperature to be four degrees higher than the last record.
To me that's what stands out the most. Anyway, so it was an extremely hot start to the tour. In fact, the majority of the tour. Stage eight was hitting forty degrees. They cut stage nine short because of the extreme heat protocol from the UCI, which I think is a it's a good thing it's in place and it it worked and whatnot. Yeah, what else did we read that was pretty interesting before we get into the real physiology of it? Picnic post NL put up
that they were going through twenty eight bottles per rider per stage, which was three times the normal number of bid-ons that they use.
Cam Nicholls (03:12.704) Well, crazy.
Ben Treble (03:14.902) So safe to say, I think why does this matter? Well, for the Aussies back home who listen to this, they're you probably used to the heat and probably already put in place a fair amount of attention to being able to ride in the heat safely. Maybe they already do some heat training potentially, or they at least think that riding in the heat is their heat training. Maybe not. you'll find out later.
And you know, what else can we do to cool down in the meantime? So I think there's a lot in this, Ken.
Cam Nicholls (03:49.198) Can I just like my little anecdote that I'd like to share at a recreational and an amateur level? Yep. And it's not even cycling, it's triathlon. I know we shouldn't be talking about triathlon on the Road Cycling Academy podcast, but I'm going to. So I've done the Noosa triathlon the last two years. It's the the biggest Olympic distance triathlon in the world. It's big event. I don't do very well because I'm not a very good triathlete, but on the run.
Not last year, the year before, the first year I did it. my daughter gave me a little bit of ice. I just put down my back. Because it's very hot in Noosa during November when this is on. Like I'm talking, you know, like early 30s, high humidity. By the time you're doing the run, which is a five kilometer run, you're getting quite hot. I had my heart rate monitor on. She gave me the ice. I dropped it down my tri-suit and it went down my it actually slid down my spine essentially. But I noticed my heart rate dropped.
Probably three beats, which may not sound like a lot, but when you're pushing threshold when I was I guess essentially during a ten kilometer run, which is what I was doing. It enabled me, I I noticed that all of a sudden I could run at a faster pace. So the next year, which was last year, I got it to drop me ice on the way up and on the way back. And it was almost instantaneous, like energy. Even though I was, you know, I wasn't consuming anything. It was just
The heart rate dropping and the ability to to go a little bit higher. So I see what the pros are doing and I'm like, yeah, I completely understand why they are doing it just from my own little baby recreational experience at the Noosa triathlon.
Ben Treble (05:31.03) Well, let's find out why why that may may have helped you out from a few different angles. Maybe I thought it's good to talk about I think a lot of people talk about the heat and they don't necessarily fully maybe understand what's actually happening. We know that when you ride in really hot weather, it affects our performance. You feel hot and you know, generally your your core body temperature starts to go up at some point and affect your performance.
Cam Nicholls (05:36.439) Okay.
Ben Treble (05:58.626) But I don't know if we really quite talked about this, or people don't necessarily go too deep on it. So that's what we're going to try and do a little bit here, at least to begin with. So let's talk about what happens when you ride a bike. So that could be in the trifulone or for most of our audience, masters athletes. You can think of your body as a as a space heater. So when you produce, so you push the pedals, right? You're going to produce energy. And
Only about 20, maybe 25% of your energy from metabolism that fuels those contractions gets converted to mechanical work. The remaining sort of 75 to 80% of that energy gets released as heat. So yeah, exercise raises our heat production above rest rates about 10 to 15 times. There's a big range because there's huge variance across, you know, say untrained to
well-trained and elite athletes. So I'm giving you some pretty broad ranges, but it's for a reason. You know, during strenuous exercise, your active muscles are going to produce potentially 100 times more heat than at rest. Right? So what does this look like in numbers? Well if say you're sort of a a general rider amateur, let's say you know between 250 to 350 watts, this would be like an above threshold effort. You're probably producing anywhere from 800
To 1200 watts of heat, right? So if you're a master's rider, if you're at a lower wattage, say 180 watts, you're still producing another 650 watts out of in terms of heat. If you're to talk in watts, I know we love watts. Let's talk watts instead of percentages. So I'll let that sit with you for a second, and we can take it a little bit deeper when we talk about. You know, I have a great textbook, one of my favorite scientists, George Brooks.
His exercise book is a bit of a Bible. it goes a little bit more in depth, right, and starts to talk about one of the best ways our body cools down is through evaporation. Now, if we didn't have that evaporative cooling, right, and there are circumstances where it's not functioning very well, your body temperature rises about 0.2 degrees per minute. And in terms of moderate exercise,
Ben Treble (08:22.828) This could result in thermal injuries within like 15 to 20 minutes. So you could say it's about one degree every five minutes increase in your core temperature. So and your core temperature has a very finite range before it starts to become a problem. I'll let you sit with that. We can go a bit deeper if you really want. We can talk about the heat balance equations. Maybe we don't need to go about that. But essentially there's a lot more involved in terms of your
Your body is like a heat sink, a lot of people use that term, or it's like a heat storage device, and at some point it hits its maximum, can't store any more heat, and it has to start getting rid of it. And in response to that, it has to do a few things. All right. So when we talk about heat storage, the things that become part of the equation are metabolic production, so energy production, you've got convection, conduction, and radiation. Those are all
Positive or negative variables in the equation. And the final one is evaporation, which is the only one-way street in terms of cooling and heating the body down. All those others, so metabolic production, convection, conduction, radiation, can both get rid of heat but also increase it, right? And there's a tipping point. So the only thing you end up leaning on at the end of the day there is the evaporation. So
That means that evaporation or evaporative cooling in terms of physiology is one of the most important areas we have to focus on as athletes. So let's are you ready to keep going? Is that sit well with you? Any questions?
Cam Nicholls (09:59.476) Yeah, th well there's definitely a lot more to it than you kind of you know, consider when you're either training or when you're doing a an event, because, you know, let's face it, no matter where you are in the world, events for recreational and amateurs are are typically in summertime. And as a result of that, there's a propensity for it to be really hot and and often i it is. But am I considering what's actually happening physiologically when I'm like heating up?
Like you've described? No. I'm not. I'm just thinking about how many more carbs can I get in? How much more power can I put out? Versus, you know, how could I maybe cool myself down right now?
Ben Treble (10:40.398) And I think it's it's probably a little in depth for some people, but it's also really important to get a handle on it because it might help people understand and pick between what might be a little bit more low-hanging fruit in terms of cooling strategies, which ones are worth your time investing in, and what ones are maybe less and people have different circumstances, right? If you're doing a hill climb time trial versus a road race or a crit at night
Those are t or an indoor, maybe you want to do a Zwift race, these all present very different situations that may change like which cooling strategy is more appropriate for you. So yeah, glad you're sticking with me. we'll keep going with it. So in terms of proportions across evaporation, right? Let's say you're at rest. Radiation is about 60%, evaporation is about 25 and convection is about 12%.
In terms of where's the heat coming from during exercise or if you're in the heat, let's say, I don't know, you go to the sauna, something like this, evaporation suddenly becomes the principal mechanism, right? So when the ambient temperature starts exceeding your skin temperature, your body starts absorbing heat via radiation and convection. Right. So in terms of this, the heat equation, suddenly we're not losing heat.
Through radiation convection, like at rest, your body produces heat to survive. And it it gets rid of that heat through radiation convection. But there's a flipping point to which instead of losing heat via those methods, it actually starts absorbing heat. And so the only thing you have left to get rid of the heat is evaporation. In terms of numbers, useful or not, maybe, but every gram of sweat that evaporates removes around
0.5 to 0.6 kcals. So why is that interesting? If you remember those watts we talked about before. So at 180 watts, it was around 650 watts of heat. If you need to get rid of a thousand watts of heat, you need to evaporate one and a half liters of sweat. Suddenly it's like that's a lot of sweat that you need to kind of get rid of to drop that kind of heat, right? Now if you're not
Ben Treble (13:09.022) acclimated. So if you're not heat acclimated, so a normal person, your sort of the ceiling of sweat rates is around that one and a half liters per hour. Athletes that are heat acclimated can have sweat rates up to four liters per hour. So very big difference in terms of the ability and why is a sweat rate kind of important because it's about this evaporative heat cooling
procedure, right? So heat training helps really raise that ceiling a considerable amount. So if there's probably one key takeaway in all the numbers in the last five, 10 minutes, that would be one of the big ones. What's one of the big outcomes from doing heat acclimatization? You can increase your maximal sweat rate and this improves your ability to evaporate sweat and cool your body down. Something that is interesting to note
So there was some research papers from Barnes in 2019 that did looked at sex differences in sweat rates. So men do typically average their s they're typical, so rest sweat rates are higher than women. So 1.13 versus 0.83 liters per hour. So it's probably just a side note for the the women listening. I would caution that's probably just mostly due to body size, but yeah.
Typically women have lower sweat rates, so your ability to evaporate the heat is also lower. And because the the heat sink, the physical body is smaller, it has less heat storage to start with. So food for thought for women out there, I would say it's pretty important for all people to consider heat training. you still following me? You ready?
Cam Nicholls (15:01.57) Yeah, yeah, I'm still following you. So I'm I'm I'm starting to get a little bit well, not confused, but conflicted in my mind whether I should be doing heat training or be trying to cool myself when I'm in the heat. Or maybe both.
Ben Treble (15:16.532) Yeah, well, I mean, long story short, I would say the heat training precedes the event that you're targeting and this will help you operate better. And you can still do Yeah. I would say the heat training should be done riding in the heat is not necessarily heat training, so to speak, in my eyes. Okay. It is one thing to do, but it's not people who say, I just ride my bike in summer and it was thirty degrees outside
This is good, but it's not not doing as much as you think. Yeah. Particularly when we look at s if you do any sort of heat training. We'll get into this later, but typically you need to probably at least a week's worth of heat training to see any real change and adaptation. And the decay of those adaptations is like two to three weeks. It's quite quick. You can extend that with maintenance work, but generally speaking, let's say summer finishes.
Cam Nicholls (15:49.538) Mm.
Ben Treble (16:12.952) Your heat adaptation's gone in like two weeks. Right. So you hit summer again and it's gonna feel brutal if you haven't done anything through the winter. Cycling has a very big advantage, which is nice though, because we get this additional self-generated airflow. Obviously, when you ride, you have the wind effect. Keep that in mind when we're talking about evaporation, because it means that when you're on climbs or you have a headwind.
where the the the wind effect is low, it becomes you're more at danger, right? Because the evaporative effect drops massively. And you probably notice that if you do a a nice ride in summer and you hit a climb, the pace drops right down. Let's say it's for us mere mortals on a steep climb, maybe anywhere from six to ten kilometers an hour. at this speed you probably feel like you heat up super quick suddenly.
Even though the ambient temperature outside hasn't probably changed at all. And that's predominantly because you lost this this the evaporative cooling has dropped massively because the airflow's gone. Now, something else to keep in mind when we talk about sweat rates is water that drips off you doesn't do anything for you. So when you're riding the bike up the hill and you've got buckets of sweat dripping off you, that in itself is not
evaporative cooling, right? It's just water lost. In fact, it means it's not, it's not a good thing necessarily. So the evaporative cooling, the way it works is the water is on your skin and it's evap it's evaporating because your skin is hot. You know if you get some water and you put it on a hot pan outside and it dries. Your skin, your body is so hot and when it sweats, this water on the skin evaporates because of the heat from your body, not because of the heat outside.
And that process is drawing the heat off your body and then getting rid of it. That's the evaporative cooling mechanism that we we need predominantly. So if the water, your sweat, is just dripping off your skin, it's not staying on there to actually absorb the heat from the body and take it away. So dripping buckets of sweat doesn't necessarily mean your evaporative cooling is working amazing. So where does all this go in terms of performance? What happens?
Cam Nicholls (18:29.717) Mm.
Ben Treble (18:35.146) when we do do heat training, right? So we just talked about what happens when you hit the heat, why it's really important, evaporative cooling is the main thing to take away. We have different sweat rates. Ideally we want to increase the sweat rate to improve our ability and the sealing of our evaporative cooling in terms of the heat equation. What happens when we do do everybody talks about doing heat training and increasing blood plasma volume, but what else is happening when we do heat training, right? So
Almost every system gets
Tue, 04 Aug 2026 - 50min - 96 - Train to Drop Your Mates (The Ultimate Group Ride Workout)
If your goal is to beat your mates on the weekend bunch ride, this might be the most effective workout you can add to your training.
In this episode, Road Cycling Academy founder Cam Nicholls and Head Coach Ryan Thomas break down one of their favourite interval sessions for recreational and amateur cyclists. Rather than targeting a single training zone, this workout combines VO₂ max efforts, sweet spot intervals and anaerobic repeats to replicate the demands of a real-world group ride.
TP Virtual Ride: https://tpvirtualhub.com/84191
Free PDF: https://shorturl.at/Pw2rp
You'll learn:
Why most indoor cycling workouts don't prepare you for fast bunch rides How hard-start VO₂ intervals improve your ability to respond to attacks Why sweet spot efforts in the middle of the session build fatigue resistance How anaerobic efforts on tired legs improve your finishing power The importance of durability and race-specific training Why Ryan recommends riding in Level Mode instead of ERG mode for sessions like this How to progress this workout over a 4-6 week training blockWhether you're preparing for your local bunch ride, a gran fondo, criterium or simply want to become a stronger cyclist, this episode explains how to train for the unpredictable nature of real cycling—not just structured intervals.
If you'd like to ride this workout with us, we'll also show you how to complete it on TrainingPeaks Virtual. https://tpvirtualhub.com/84191
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.826) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas. And I think we're going back-to-back bro science videos here because we're going to talk about the best workout you can do to beat your mates. And this isn't really there's no science literature on this one, is there? No. This is just from us doing, you know, RCA for now about six or seven years, working with recreational and amateurs, digging into the science and
Coming up with a workout that we think that people can do that I did actually yesterday. I'm still a little bit fatigued from it, to be honest. but a workout people can do in on a week to week basis for a maybe a six week block or something like that, if they're looking to to beat their mates. So if people want to do this workout, just know that we've we're gonna be hosting this workout on Training Pegs Virtual, which you can do with us next week. So we'll drop a link below to that. I also
Did this workout on Training Peaks Virtual yesterday. So I've got some questions about it, Ryan. But what is the workout first?
Ryan Thomas (01:27.17) Yeah, well it's we've done so many different workouts and we're always prescribing something. It's a mix of like a blender that we might have seen on Wahoo system, bit of Bunch ride style, a bit of
Cam Nicholls (01:36.088) They have the mini blender and the big blender. I've done them both on Wahoo system. Or is it Wahu X these days? I can't remember.
Ryan Thomas (01:42.03) Yeah, they're incredibly challenging, right? Like you by the end of it, you're on your hands and knees. So it's kind of thinking about what you need to do in a bunch ride or you're riding next to your mate, like how do you get up that climb and they're like, you're starting to drop and you're starting to get a half wheel and it's like it's really challenging. Yep. I've kind of mixed together a bunch of different physiology, but essentially it's fatiguing you and making you stressing your body enough that by the end of it you're gonna have to go really hard on fatigue legs.
So this particular workout's one version of many that we can do and that we can create. And there's many different adaptations, but essentially we do a warm up, do a ramp, up to threshold, activate. And then in this particular one, we've got two hard start VO2s, which I really like. It kind of gets we prime our VO two system, we get our oxygen consumption really hard in the first minute, and then we settle back down into low VO two and where heart rate stays really high and it's but it's still really hard on the legs for four to five minutes. Yep.
Do that twice, recover, and then we get into some sweet spot tempo for two by eight minutes with a short recovery in there. So kind of what you would do in a bunch ride, for example, you've done a couple of hard efforts and then you're settling into a nice pace, settling, rolling turns. And then the final set is one minute anaerobic effort. So in a bunch ride, it's like where that split happens. Usually in a bunch ride is like that really hard one minute effort. Recover, go again, and then go again and again until you until you can't go anymore. So
kind of mimicking that really hard end of a bunchie. Okay.
Cam Nicholls (03:09.966) Cool. So before I give you my feedback on it, I've got some questions about the ride. Yep. Let's keep in mind that, you know, based off previous conversations that we've had, because this kind of does contradict a little bit some of the conversations we've had about targeting specific zones and spending six weeks there. Yeah. This is kind of like all the zones in one ride. Go smack yourself. So make sure that, you know, if you want to get the most out of these, you've have sort of periodized, you know, through, you know, your lower end aerobic zones. Maybe spend a bit of time on threshold. Yep.
You know, if you really want to get the most out of it. If you don't care about that, fine. But I just wanted to preface that because it does kind of this workout is a bit of everything. Yeah. Right. It there's a reason for it because bunch rides or races or events, they're a bit of everything. And a lot of times people do the training and they're doing, I'm doing the over unders, I'm doing VO two session, you know, max workouts. And but they're sustained and they're they're they're predictable. This is like an unpredictable interval session, if that is not a co not a contradiction in itself. So
Ryan Thomas (03:53.046) Hundred percent.
Ryan Thomas (04:06.232) Yeah, it makes sense.
Cam Nicholls (04:09.228) Yeah. So what I liked about this workout, let's talk about the first intervals. Yep. Was that if you think about getting dropped in a bunch ride or or you know being on the limit, what happens? And I even hear this from recreational amateurs. I hate it when people attack. And then, you know, it's like, why are you training that? You know, and this is kind of doing a big effort where people will attack and then going back into quite a hard effort. So it could be like, you know, someone's attacked in the bunch and everyone's accelerated.
And then you gotta get on the wheel because you know there's a couple of guys driving it. So that first couple of intervals I feel replicates that to a certain degree.
Ryan Thomas (04:45.186) Definitely. Okay. Yeah. And it's a strategy you can use across any type of interval, like a tempo interval or a hard start anaerobic interval or a hard start threshold. And I use this quite a lot. Yeah. It's really good physiologically, but it's very applicable what you do on the road.
Cam Nicholls (04:59.918) Okay. The next two intervals that you sp spoke of, which was the probably for me, maybe bottom end sweet spot. Yeah. Tempo. Yeah, around 300 watts for eight minutes. I've been doing a lot of tempo work recently. So I've I found or sweet spot work because I'm not really training for anything and I like just to sit on because particularly from a weight management perspective, I'd rather than do zone two, I'd rather do tempo or sweet spot because I know I'm just burning through some more calories.
Ryan Thomas (05:09.582) Three hundred watts, yeah.
Cam Nicholls (05:28.866) Because I'm not doing enough volume at the minute. Yeah, it's different to the actual you know I'm
Ryan Thomas (05:31.126) One way to think about it.
Do what I say, not what I do.
Cam Nicholls (05:37.09) Yeah, exactly. But I've been doing a lot of work, so I actually found this kind of quite easy this part. So I was curious to get your perspectives. Maybe it's just because I conditioning myself for this, I found a little bit easier. Other people may not. Is it designed to be a bit easier or like what's the purpose of the sustained efforts in the middle?
Ryan Thomas (05:53.356) Yeah, I mean this is one iteration is probably the first type that you would do. And and I would increase this up to threshold. Okay. So in the progression, we want to make them harder and harder. If you're doing the s exact same workout for two weeks, three weeks, it's probably not gonna give you much more, right? And you're gonna get pretty comfortable with it. But the next week, so next week go and do them at threshold. Do those eight minutes at ninety five to ninety seven percent. Or I'd go to a hundred percent if you're feeling good. And I think the one caveat for this type of workout is you do it in level mode as opposed to erg mode.
You can probably get a bit more out of it if you're feeling good. Yeah, so go I'm personally as a writ as a when I'm riding on the trainer, I'm rarely in eark mode. I'll go in level mode. This podcast
Cam Nicholls (06:25.23) I doing erg mode.
Cam Nicholls (06:34.158) The podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. If you're a recreational or amateur road cyclist and you're stuck on a frustrating performance plateau, feeling like you need some guidance, but you're not quite ready to dive straight into one-to-one coaching. At the RCA, we've created something called the 12 week custom plan, which we believe would be your perfect next step. It starts off with an upfront deep dive call with your coach who will understand your goals, your riding preferences, what your not negotiable rides are.
And where you want to go, then they'll create a fully tailored 12-week custom plan that is supported over the 12-week period. We believe it's the perfect intermediate step, giving you a taste of working with a coach and experiencing a customized plan without committing to full coaching. Our writers are seeing real results too, and you can go to our Google reviews to see this. Marvin recently shaved over 30 minutes off his Grafton to Inverel time from doing the 12-week custom plan.
Adam gained 20 watts on his FTP in 12 weeks and 40 watts on his five minute power. And we have riders completing rides that they've failed in previous attempts like Peaks, Challenge, all from doing this 12-week custom plan. So if you're ready to break through, head to the roadcyclingacademy.com. In the menu system, you'll see our 12-week custom plan and take the first step towards that next level performance. Now let's get back to the podcast.
Right. I'm always in erg mode. I love erg mode. I don't have to think about it. I know you people should be doing level mode. But it's just like well what that's what's practical for me right now.
Ryan Thomas (08:10.862) Yeah. So the benefit of level mode in that situation, if you were sitting at three hundred watts and you're like, Well, I'm pretty comfy, like maybe my sweet spot's three thirty today. Like I'll let's lift three thirty and let's three thirty. Okay. There's no negative to that. It's just what your legs are on the day. Or maybe your physiology aligns better to that. So that's a benefit there.
Cam Nicholls (08:28.718) So it was two eight minute sort of sweet spot efforts. Yeah. With a three minute recovery or was it four minute three. Three minute recovery. Yeah. And while I was doing that, I I was thinking that I was like, so I've got three anaerobic efforts coming up. Four fifty watts on an indoor trainer in erg mode is quite difficult for me right now. So I was like, okay, maybe we're doing this now because if I was doing something more challenging, I'm not going to get through that. So the final intervals was a minute at four fifty watts. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Thomas (08:34.401) Yeah, sure.
Ryan Thomas (08:52.184) Yes.
Cam Nicholls (08:58.496) And then two was it two minutes recovery and then a minute on? Yes. Two minutes off, a minute on. And once again, I was surprised I got through this okay. But I I'm I was thinking like, you know, bunch rides, group rides, where do people often get dropped? It's at the end when it's like like I think about our Tuesday World Champs where I live in Noosa. It's the one minute or 45 second climb up, you know, the final the final climb, which is maybe, you know, after people have got about an hour in the legs where they pop. So I was like, okay.
I've done these initial, you know, intervals which were quite challenging. Ones in the middle, okay, they were sus they weren't that challenging, but they fatigued my legs to a certain degree. I'm now doing these three hard efforts on fatigue legs. So it's kind of like, you know, durability that a lot of people don't necessarily train. And I I felt like that's why you put them there.
Ryan Thomas (09:48.3) A hundred percent. And I think a lot of people who are just choosing a workout on wherever or making a workout up, you would usually do hard stuff at the start, right? 'Cause that's when you feel good. You want to do hard stuff at the start. That's when you the le the least amount of fatigue in the legs and you can pr probably produce more power. But this type of work or beating your mates around the block or in the bunchy or in a race or whatever, it it's you're never getting dropped in the first five minutes or ten minutes of a of a bunchy or riding with your mates. It's in the last hour.
Or in the last fifteen minutes of that group ride where that one minute, thirty second punch is really important. Yes. And you can progress this. So level mode, if I was doing this workout, I would do if I was in level mode, I'd just go as hard as I can for a minute. And th if I'm four fifty or five hundred watts, it wouldn't really bother me. And as a coach I wouldn't really matter because what we're trying to achieve out of that is what's your ability or how hard can you push after an hour or forty five minutes of intervals, what can you get out of the legs? And we'd
The reason that you wouldn't do this too much early on in a prep or whatever is that if you're pushing that really hard, it's gonna take a couple of days to recover from that type of anaerobic work.
Cam Nicholls (10:53.822) it's quite fatiguing. Yeah. So while I got through it, you know, reasonably unscathed, and I said to you off camera, I'm actually kind of doing this workout myself. Not the one you prescribe, but I'm making my own one up where I do I'll start off with a s I kind of periodized through the designs. As we talk about, I'll start off with, you know, zone two warm-up, sweet spot effort for 10 minutes, recovery for five, then I'll do over-unders threshold for eight, ten minutes, then I'll recover for five minutes, then I'll do 3015s.
And then I'll recover for five minutes and I'll do an all out 30 second effort. Yeah. And that's kind of my blender. So you yours is a bit more re reverse engineered, which is probably smarter for bunch rides, was bunch rides start off hard. Yes. whereas my, you know, my version not so much. So because I've been doing this workout, so I can just stay conditioned for the local group ride, I found it relatively not easy, but not as challenging as I probably would have if I hadn't done this workout before. But those one minute efforts from a musculoskeletal perspective, while I wasn't cardio, I wasn't
failing, like later that afternoon and even this morning, I really felt it in the legs. Which I and a lot of people don't do that kind of work on the trainer, I don't find the anaerobic work. They do the VO2, they do the threshold, but they don't do the hard thirty second or one minute pretty much max.
Ryan Thomas (12:07.106) Yeah, and it's important for if you don't have a local bunch ride, for example, if you're just on the indoor trainer or you're not doing any any online racing, then this type you'll never get this type of stimulus. Right. Like you're never getting a really hard effort after an hour or an hour and a half or however long you're doing. But yeah, it's really important. For someone who's ra like I race every weekend. I do a one hour race every weekend. And at the end of that race you're emptying the tank. And that this is what the type of stuff you're getting. But if you're not doing that type of work, then
Not really training that ability to suffer after all when you're already fatigued.
Cam Nicholls (12:38.252) No, and don't they say this w this is the kind of work that wakes up dormant muscle fibers? Yeah. We're activating more more muscle fibers that are there to be used. Cool. All right. Well, if you would like to join Ryan and I and do this workout, we're gonna do the exact same one or are you gonna mix it up for the next one? I will do the same one.
Ryan Thomas (12:46.658) Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (12:55.394) I think we'll do the same one. We'll do the same one and well I'll make the ranges a little bit better. And then use level mode so you can go a bit harder, I
Cam Nicholls (13:04.02) Use level mode. You can do your your coaching over the over the chat. You can push some people as we're going through it. Yeah, we'll put a link below and we'll catch everyone in the next show.
Tue, 28 Jul 2026 - 13min - 95 - Is your Zone 2 training actually in Zone 2?
One of the biggest mistakes recreational cyclists make is relying on estimated FTP numbers from Garmin, Strava or Wahoo to determine their training zones. If those estimates are wrong, your Zone 2 training could be missing the mark—and limiting your aerobic development.
In this episode, Road Cycling Academy founder Cam Nicholls and Head Coach Ryan Thomas discuss a simple "bro science" method that can help cyclists estimate their true Zone 2 power without needing a formal FTP or Critical Power test.
RCA 12 Week Custom Plan: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/cycling-plan-custom/
You'll learn:
Why estimated FTP numbers can lead to inaccurate training zones How to use heart rate and power together to validate your Zone 2 intensity The one-hour Zone 2 test almost every cyclist can perform What heart rate drift (decoupling) tells you about your aerobic fitness Whether you should train to power or heart rate during endurance rides Why easier Zone 2 training is often more effective than riding too hard Practical advice for cyclists training 6-12 hours per weekWhether you're training for your next gran fondo, trying to increase your FTP, improve endurance or simply become a stronger recreational cyclist, this episode provides practical, evidence-informed advice you can apply immediately.
If you'd like to try the Zone 2 test discussed in this episode, we'll also be providing a downloadable guide linked below.
#cycling #zonetwo #FTP #endurancecycling #cyclingtraining #roadcycling #cyclingcoach #cyclingperformance #masterscycling #hearttraining
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.826) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by the head coach of the RCA, Ryan Thomas. And today we're gonna do some bro science, Ryan. Because at the end of the day, with recreational and amateur road cyclists who we deal with, you know, guys that are training six to maybe twelve hours per week if they're lucky, busy lifestyles, jobs, families, you name it. You know, sometimes people just aren't gonna do testing. Yes.
Ryan Thomas (00:36.91) Knuckle down. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (00:56.832) work out their numbers. They're just not going to do it. I've we've recently implemented a quiz at the RCA where people fill out this questionnaire, three minutes, they get presented with results on where we think they should be focusing their fitness if they want to increase their FTP. And off the back of that quiz, if people say they're looking for some tailored advice or maybe want to work one on one with a a coach, I offer a call. And as part of that call, it's just like an intermediate step if people are maybe coaching's too much to jump straight into, they just want to have a chat with somebody.
So I've been speaking to a lot of recreational and amateurs and through that conversation I've learnt that yeah, people are just taking an estimate off Strava or Garmin or or Wahoo. Is that commonly what you see when you bring people on board?
Ryan Thomas (01:37.548) So common. Yeah, super common. There's a lot of AI predictors out there. Yep. That will give you a rough number. But yeah, like we just spoke about in another podcast that you may or may not have listened to. It's a lot of estimating it doesn't tell you much.
Cam Nicholls (01:51.246) Yes. Yeah, exactly. So as a result of that, you know, people are getting a zone two number from this estimated FTP. And, you know, often it's external to the fact that they're a lot of them aren't actually doing exclusive zone two work, which is perhaps another rabbit hole for another day. The number that they're getting for their zone two power is inaccurate. And zone two is probably like the mainstay that we wanna be working.
You know, in our cycling, no matter where we are in our journey, whether you're doing targeting an event or you're doing off season work, you're always doing zone two. Yes. You always want to keep topping up the aerobic engine. So it's arguably the most important number you should have.
Ryan Thomas (02:34.094) Yeah, definitely. You agree? Yeah, well cycling at the end of the day, it's and it's an aerobic sport. Like it's and if you're cycling for more than f two minutes, then it's aerobic. So the easiest way, less stressful, most the least stressful way to boost that aerobic engine is zone two work and a lot of it.
Cam Nicholls (02:43.096) Yes.
Cam Nicholls (02:51.544) Yes. So if we're gonna give somebody an idea of what their their zone two power should be, and if we're using FTP, obviously we use critical power at the RCA, which is perhaps a bit left of field when you think about the whole recreational and amateur cycling community. Most people are talking about FTP. So that's why we're talking about a little bit more. But so if we look at FTP, what number should we be looking at if we're trying to target our zone two power?
Ryan Thomas (03:17.122) Yeah, anywhere from sixty to seventy percent. The actual zone two zone is fifty five to seventy four percent of your threshold or your FTP. So anywhere in there. Usually we when we set zone two work, it's usually sixty to seventy percent. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (03:32.6) Yep, okay. So here's my broscience hack, Brian. Yeah, yeah. Which I haven't really told you about. And I'm keen to get your thoughts. If somebody hasn't done their any formal testing, they've taken an estimate and they think they're doing zone two. Here's what I'm going to recommend to them without them having to go do a test. This is kind of a test, but it's a much easier test than doing an FTP test. jump on an indoor trainer, okay, if you've got one, or go to a trainer.
Ryan Thomas (03:36.76) Tell me, I'm I'm interested.
Cam Nicholls (04:00.462) crit track if you've got one or somewhere where you can just pedal consistently for an hour. Yep. Take your what you think is your sixty five, seventy percent should we be targeting upper end zone two for this one hour test? If it's a one hour test, testing your aerobic
Ryan Thomas (04:14.668) Yeah. Yeah. I would say sixty five, just go in the middle.
Cam Nicholls (04:17.484) Okay, 65%. So go sixty-five percent of your FTP for this test, right? We're pedaling consistently. We're making sure that we're not compromised by heat. We haven't had a bad sleep. We haven't had eight coffees before we do the test. Nothing is going to affect the heart, right? And then make sure you're wearing a heart rate strap. Okay. Key. Key. Super key to this test. Okay. Because what we want to do is see where our heart rate lands once we get maybe 15, 20 minutes into this one hour test.
Ryan Thomas (04:34.734) Yes.
Cam Nicholls (04:46.35) So if you're doing it out, you know, on the road or on on the trainer, make sure you warm up for the first five, ten minutes. And then once you get to the ten, fifteen minute mark, we want to be hitting sixty-five percent of FTP. Then we want to see where does the heart rate land. Now, to calculate your zone two heart rate. If people haven't done FTP testing, I'm gonna tell you right now they haven't done lactate threshold heart rate testing. No. Yeah. But most people know what their max heart rate is, roughly.
Ryan Thomas (05:09.566) Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (05:14.53) I could still argue that it's probably not their max heart rate because to get your max heart rate, as you know, you need to be three hours deep in a heart event where it's hot and you're climbing and you're on someone's wheel and you feel like you're about to have a heart attack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When was the last time you did that? You know, it doesn't happen all that often. And some people have never done that. So maybe you could argue that people should add three to five beats to what they think their max heart rate is. But anyway, close. Just trying to take your max heart rate, sixty to seventy percent.
of max heart rate is your zone two heart rate.
Ryan Thomas (05:45.73) Yeah, a bit higher for for max. it's usually around seventy, seventy five for a heart rate, or eighty even, based off your max heart rate. no, that's the threshold.
Cam Nicholls (05:56.054) That threshold. It's seventy, sixty to seventy percent. Yes. Yes.
Ryan Thomas (06:00.034) I don't use heart rate zones. I don't use max heart rate. everyone's doing testing, so fine. This podcast
Cam Nicholls (06:01.75) You don't use Max Right though.
Cam Nicholls (06:07.63) Is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. If you're a recreational or amateur road cyclist and you're stuck on a frustrating performance plateau, feeling like you need some guidance, but you're not quite ready to dive straight into one-to-one coaching. At the RCA, we've created something called the 12-week custom plan, which we believe would be your perfect next step. It starts off with an upfront deep dive call with your coach who will understand your goals, your riding preferences, what your not negotiable rides are.
And where you want to go, then they'll create a fully tailored 12-week custom plan that is supported over the 12-week period. We believe it's the perfect intermediate step, giving you a taste of working with a coach and experiencing a customized plan without committing to full coaching. Our writers are seeing real results too, and you can go to our Google reviews to see this. Marvin recently shaved over 30 minutes off his Grafton to Inverel time from doing the 12-week custom plan.
Adam gained 20 watts on his FTP in 12 weeks and 40 watts on his five minute power. And we have riders completing rides that they've failed in previous attempts like Peaks, Challenge, all from doing this 12-week custom plan. So if you're ready to break through, head to the roadcyclingacademy.com. In the menu system, you'll see our 12-week custom plan and take the first step towards that next level performance. Now let's get back to the podcast.
According to the internet, sixty to seventy percent. And look, there may, you know, as we know with all sorts of zones, there are different variations and different formulas. So maybe for this conversation, we'll just say stick with around 70%. Yep. So we've got a upper end range of maybe the conservative number of sixty to seventy percent. When you get fifteen to twenty minutes into this test, looking at your power, sixty five percent of FTP, where's your heart rate land? Is it around seventy percent of your max heart rate?
Or maybe a bit below or a bit above. If it's around there, then you're probably at your zone two power. But if it's a lot higher, if it's 80, 85% of your max heart rate or a lot lower, if it's 50% of your max heart rate, then fair chances are you've got the wrong zone two power. Now there are caveats because you might, let's say, land at 70% of your max heart rate at 20 minutes in, and then at 30 minutes in you start drifting and you drift by 15 to 20 beats.
Ryan Thomas (08:19.531) Agree.
Cam Nicholls (08:31.574) Once you get to the end of that hour. So if that happened to somebody, what would you suggest is going on there? Not in zone two. Or you're unconditioned at zone two for that particular power. So you would drop it back maybe next time you go do that test. Because this is a good zone two ride anyway. This is not yes, we're turning it into a test, but people should do this ride probably once or twice a week anyway. Exactly. And if you want to go longer than an hour, just do the test for an hour and then keep riding. Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (08:36.654) Yeah, you're not in zone two.
Cam Nicholls (08:58.136) But yeah, the next time you go do this, maybe dial it back to 60% of what you think your FTP is. So you get to a point where your heart rate's kind of sitting around 70% of max heart rate for the full hour. Yep. And that's it. That's my bro science hack to to work out your zone two power. Of course, if it's the other way around, if your your max heart rate's 50%, you know, if you land at 50% at 20 minutes, then you need to increase your power. Yeah. But you want to be ultimately getting your max heart rate.
Around seventy percent of max heart rate, sixty five, seventy percent of max heart rate for that hour consistently, and that's probably your zone two power. And once you've worked worked it out, then you can work on it. Yeah. And you can work on extending, you know, to ninety minutes to two hours without seeing so much drift. But you know you've got at least maybe not a bang on number, but it's a lot better than, you know, taking this estimate and just assuming.
Ryan Thomas (09:49.474) Yeah, I think what's really important about or what's really beneficial about this is the the heart rate is the anchor because of the power we know that you stay at a consistent power and you're not conditioned and your heart rate's gonna drift and you're gonna not be in the right zone. So if you're d using heart rate as your number after that fifteen to twenty minute mark, you adjust the power down to keep your heart rate at that. And the other way to do this is if you were if you were looking at your your power and you were keeping your power consistent after that fifteen, twenty minute mark.
And your heart rate starts to change and starts drifting up. I'd argue that that's too hard for you. So if it's staying the same, then you're good. Like theoretically, you're in the right area. But if your heart rate's moving, then that what is that actually saying is that internally you're having to work harder than what you're exerting in your power, what externally what you're putting out. So there's decoupling and drift happening there, the separation between heart rate and power. We don't usually want to see that too much in zone two work. I think a lot of people think zone two work needs to be
Upper end zone two or it needs to be challenging in one way or another. But usually it's in a normal week of training it should probably be easier rather than harder. Mm. Gonna want it to be under si seventy percent or under sixty five percent. There's not much physiologically, there's not much difference from fifty five percent and seventy percent when you're in zone two. There's not much change, right? Yep. But if you go to ninety five percent or a hundred and five percent of social, they're very different things happening. And it's the same zone. Or zone two, there's a twenty percent range there where
Very, very similar physiological markers going on. So there is another argument, and I've heard this a bit, is that like you target the low end of the zones, you're still getting the same benefit, but it's easier. No one likes going low. No, it's very I when you set someone a a workout of sixty percent for zone two, they're like, That sucked. Like I couldn't do it. I couldn't you couldn't do it because it feels way easy.
Cam Nicholls (11:40.322) Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of arguments about just using heart rate full stop. You shouldn't be l looking at power. The thing in my experiences, particularly for somebody had an underdeveloped aerobic engine, when I first like took my cycling, you know, to the next level, I started doing proper zone two training. So I guess I just go out and ride at two hundred watts. That was what the coach said at the time. So I thought, what do you mean, just ride at two hundred watts? But he kind of knew from some testing that that was my zone two power. And it gave me something like, okay, just two hundred watts, two hundred watts.
And what happened over time is I was probably initially drifting quite a fair bit into zone three, zone three heart rate at that two hundred watts. But by conditioning myself to just target two hundred watts and stay exclusive at two hundred watts, over time a drift came down and then my overall heart rate came down. And I conditioned myself aerobically to ride at two hundred watts. So then I I asked myself the question well, what if I was following heart rate?
Would have I been reducing the power to keep the heart rate, you know, zone two technically, and then I'm conditioning myself to reduce power as the ride goes on. Is that the right way for a recreational and an amateur to do it? Obviously there's no science on this. This is just my own anecdotal experiences, but I've always found that once you can find that zone two power sweet spot, even if you might be experiencing some drift, provided you're not drifting out of control.
you know, and you're going into lactate threshold territory, which we know changes the workout physiologically, you know, over time it's going to that it's gonna level out. And that's when you know you're stretching the left ventricle, you're increasing lung capacity, increasing mitochondrial efficiency, you your type one slow twitch muscle fiber network, all that zone two stuff is being established.
Ryan Thomas (13:19.8) I think the key there is it depends how long you're drifting after. If it's after three hours and well, everyone's gonna drift after three hours theoretically. If you're drifting after thirty minutes, forty five minutes and it's probably yeah, you're stressed. Gonna after a three hour ride you're gonna be getting pretty stretched. So yeah, there's a lot of context that comes in there, but I like it.
Cam Nicholls (13:37.742) Absolutely. So maybe for this one, we haven't put together a a PDF yet, but I think I might put a PDF, my bro science hack, to work out your zone two power.
Ryan Thomas (13:46.958) Can you send it to me? Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (13:48.428) Yeah, we'll link a PDF below if you wanna check it out yourself. And yeah, come back to this video after you've done the test and tell us what happened. Be good to hear and we'll catch everyone in the next show.
Tue, 21 Jul 2026 - 13min - 94 - The Bike Fit Upgrade Nobody Talks About
Are cycling insoles worth it, or are they just another expensive upgrade?
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy Podcast, expert bike fitter Neill Stanbury sits down with cycling podiatrist Nathan White, founder of Cobra9, to explore one of the most overlooked aspects of bike fit: what happens between your foot and the pedal.
While many cyclists obsess over frame geometry, saddle position and crank length, very few consider whether the insole inside their shoe is helping—or hindering—their performance and comfort.
Nathan has spent over 17 years designing cycling-specific orthotics and insoles, working with everyone from recreational riders through to elite athletes. Together, Neill and Nathan unpack the science and biomechanics behind cycling insoles, explaining why properly supporting the foot can improve comfort, stability and overall pedalling efficiency.
During the discussion they cover why carbon fibre has become the material of choice for premium cycling insoles, how foot pressure is distributed throughout the pedal stroke, and why many off-the-shelf insoles fail to provide adequate support for cyclists.
They also explain the differences between generic, semi-custom and fully custom orthotics, discuss common causes of numb feet and "hot foot", and reveal how subtle improvements in foot stability can influence rider position, knee tracking and overall bike fit.
Whether you're struggling with foot discomfort on long rides, looking to optimise your bike fit, or simply wondering whether cycling-specific insoles are worth the investment, this episode provides practical insights from two specialists who have worked with thousands of cyclists.
Cobra9: https://cobra9.com.au/
In this episode: Why your feet are the most important contact point on the bike Generic vs semi-custom vs custom cycling insoles Why carbon fibre is used in premium cycling orthotics The biomechanics of foot support during the pedal stroke How insoles improve load distribution and reduce pressure points Common causes of numb feet and hot foot Why shoe fit matters just as much as the insole How better foot support can improve stability and pedalling efficiency What bike fitters look for when assessing cycling biomechanicsIf you've ever wondered whether cycling insoles are worth the money, this episode will help you understand the science, the biomechanics, and the practical benefits behind one of cycling's most misunderstood upgrades.
Wed, 15 Jul 2026 - 19min - 93 - Cycling Hip Pain Explained: Labral Tears, Bike Fit & Prevention
Hip pain is one of the most common issues cyclists face, but the source of the problem isn't always where you think.
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with expert bike fitter Neill Stanbury to discuss one of the more serious causes of cycling-related hip pain: hip labral tears. They explain how poor bike positioning, pelvic asymmetry, hip impingement and repetitive movement patterns can contribute to chronic pain and injury.
You'll learn:
✅ What a hip labral tear actually is ✅ Common symptoms and warning signs ✅ Why hip pain is often mistaken for a hip flexor issue ✅ How bike fit can contribute to hip impingement ✅ The role of pelvic asymmetry in cycling injuries ✅ Why some riders develop snapping hip syndrome ✅ Bike fit adjustments that may help reduce symptoms ✅ When MRI scans may be required ✅ Why surgery should be considered a last resort ✅ Practical ways to prevent hip pain before it becomes chronic
Cam also shares his personal experience overcoming years of cycling-related hip pain through targeted bike fit changes, including cleat adjustments, leg length correction and improved biomechanics on the bike.
If you're struggling with hip pain, deep groin pain, hip flexor tightness, hip impingement, or recurring discomfort while riding, this episode provides valuable insights into potential causes and solutions.
Subscribe for more cycling training, bike fitting, injury prevention and performance content from the Road Cycling Academy.
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. So please excuse any visual references. Today I'm joined by expert bike fitter Neil Stanbury, and we're gonna be talking about hip stuff in our injury series. This is the second video in our injury series. I'm quite interested in this one because before I came to you, I used to suffer from hip pain for probably 10 years. I used to get back from my Saturday ride and actually put peas, like cold peas, on my hip to deal with the inflammation. And
Of course, you know, you resolved it through, you know, identifying that I was dropping my right hip and I was slightly twisted to the bike. So you put my cleats in a better position. You gave me I think a six millimeter. Yeah. And maybe widened my Q factor a little bit. And it's funny, like I've never experienced hip pain ever since. So it was positional.
Neill Stanbury (01:02.796) Shim. Leg length shim, yes.
Neill Stanbury (01:10.328) Yep. Good. Yeah, yeah, most of them are. This one that we're going to talk about in the as part of our injury series is a bit more specific. I think yours was probably more sort of like an ITB syndrome, like a hip flexor type thing, because it was so easy to resolve. Yes, the other syndrome. This one we're going to talk about labrum tears. Now labrum tears, a lot of people watching this will know what a labrum tear is, but I'm gonna go through it again because there'll be plenty of people that don't. The labrum in the hip
Cam Nicholls (01:25.486) Yeah. I do have a lot of syndromes.
Neill Stanbury (01:38.516) is a if you imagine the hip as being a ball and socket joint, you've got a socket and a ball that sits in there. And that ball just sits neatly in the socket. And that socket is mostly comprised of bone, which is the actual acetabulum of the hip, but extending off the top, mainly the top section of this socket, there is a flexible cartilaginous lip. And the job, and this is what the labrum is, right? So that this is adhered to the edge of the the bone here as like quite strongly, but it can rip off, which is what we're going to talk about in a minute.
And labrum tears what happens when that actually separates off. They typically, when we're talking about cycling, they're very common. They often occur when the hip has been impinging at the top of the stroke. Now, what do I mean by impinging? Essentially, your knee is coming up over the top of the stroke. And if you've got there's some anatomical things you can have in your hip joint which can predispose you to this, but the big one is if you're sitting twisted to the bike. And we talk about this kind of as a causal mechanism of almost every one of these problems because it is.
But if your pelvis is out of playing with the bike, the knee typically on the opposite side to what you're dropping your hip. So if you're if you're dropping your right hip, your left leg will get forced away from the bike. And as it comes in from outside the line of the pedal, that femur is going to have to internally rotate repetitively across the line of the pedal. And so as it internally rotates, you're much more likely to get striking of the neck of the femur onto the acetabulum. And that
loads the labrum and it can rip it off. Now, sometimes they're good for a long, long, long time and then it fails. And you're out on a ride one day and you think, geez, my hip is suddenly painful. But a lot of them creep on. A lot of them, you know, it's a bit niggly and then it slowly gets worse over a couple of months. And then one day it's really bad. The typical pain from this from a labrum tear is a really deep anterior groin pain. So right in through the front of the hip.
People will often sort of grab their hip with their hand like this. We call it a sulcus sign. And they'll say, the pain's in there. It really feels deep inside. It is often mistaken for hip flexor problems. Okay. So a lot of the time the person will get a diagnosis of, your hip flexor is tight. You know, it's your hip flexor. You just got to stretch your hip flexor, your psoas. What you've got to realize is that the psoas muscle and the iliacus, which together form the hip flexor, they both run directly across the
Neill Stanbury (03:57.966) top of the socket, right? They are literally like on the labrum. So it's very, very difficult to delineate between a labral tear and psoas irritation because when the tear in the labrum occurs, it'll leak inflammation into the area around the psoas and you'll get chronic hip flexor tightness, which you can't resolve. So these are an underlying trigger, if you like, of some psoas type issues that people have with their hip flexor.
So deep anterior groin pain often comes on suddenly, but sometimes creeps on. Always associated with asymmetry on the bike pretty much, unless you've got terrible hip impingement issues. And often the rider will have a bit of a clunk and a creak in a pop in the hip. So that if they flex their hip up, as they bring it down, it'll go, wow. That's yeah, it's so we call it sort of a a snapping hip syndrome or something or both. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So there's often a bit of a noise.
Cam Nicholls (04:45.006) That you can feel or hear or both.
Never got to that extent, thankfully.
Neill Stanbury (04:51.946) Yeah, and I don't think yours was very frontal pain. Was it was it right in the frontal. Yeah, it was lateral. Yeah, so the lateral pain is more likely to be like ITB or TFL type pain, but the actual hip flexor slash labrum tear patterns, they're very frontal pain. So that's a it's a much worse problem to get. They're very difficult to fix. The treatment, when you're talking about cycling and biomechanics, the treatment is obviously
Cam Nicholls (04:55.502) No, it was right on the side.
Neill Stanbury (05:16.226) Two things. You must, and we banged down about this in the back pane one, you must correct the asymmetry that's caused it. That makes total sense. The other big ones are to reduce the height at which the knee is rising over the top of the stroke. So basically the higher this hip has to come up, the more likely it is to whack into the edge of that socket and damage the labrum. Yep. Shorter cranks, taller front ends, more forward saddle positions. Often we end up doing a combination of things where we move the saddle up and forward in an arc.
Around the bottom bracket. So we run a higher further forward position and we shorten the cranks and we bring the front end of the bike up. This can cause other slight other issues elsewhere. But if if you're trying to unload a chronically painful hip and let it heal, it's the lesser of two evils. Yeah. So you can end up with a bit too much weight on your hands and that sort of stuff from this type of positioning. But if it gets rid of your hip pain, it's often often the way to go. So you want to reduce the hip flexion, you want to open the hip angle up, shorter cranks are really good, upright front ends are really good on the bike.
And with any luck, it'll resolve. Now, if it doesn't resolve, sometimes these ones you do everything you can and they c they don't get better. We often end up doing an MRI, sometimes with contrast dye injected into the joint, which basically allows us to image the joint with a little bit more detail and determine it sort of increases the sensitivity of the scan for picking up the tear. But a lot of the time you can pick it up on a regular MRI without the dye. it's not very nice putting contrast dye into a hip joint. So yeah, you've got to pick and choose who you want to do that with. It's a big needle.
So we we scan your hip, we determine that it is a labrum tear, and then sometimes, sometimes they have to get off the bike for a period to allow it to heal. If it doesn't heal in that time, you know, which is often like two to three months, if it doesn't sort itself out and kind of the the labrum doesn't glue itself back onto the edge of the socket properly, there is surgical interventions that you can have for these. So is that a sort
Cam Nicholls (07:02.542) Pre slope, like as soon as you go down that path, is it ever gonna get back to where it was or
Neill Stanbury (07:06.979) Okay. But then again, if it's that painful that it needs the surgery and it's been that painful for that long, it's probably not gonna get back to how it was anyway. If you did nothing. So yeah, the surgery is definitely not something you jump into early. You do that as an absolute last resort when nothing else is working.
A lot of the stuff we spoke about in the the back pain piece that we did, which is probably coming out before this one, a lot of those anti-inflammatory modalities do help. The fasting and the hot cold and and that sort of stuff. It can help to knock down the inflammation, the chronic inflammation sitting around the edge of the labrum. But the the surgical intervention when all else fails, they basically put a couple of little grub screws into your pelvis and have a ligature that loops around the thing.
They rough up the bone, they stick these grub screws in, they loop it around and they suck it onto the edge of the the the bone there and they hold it in place. The hope being that it will glue itself back on with you know, with conventional healing processes to the edge of the socket. It's a very long, slow recovery. they have a relatively high failure rate within five years. It's not something you do lightly. They're a huge pain in the butt. So prevention is much better than cure when it comes to labrum tears, people. Okay.
So if any of you out there are suffering from a labrum tea, you've been diagnosed by your physio, your doctor, you've had an RI, hopefully this helps you out a little bit.
Cam Nicholls (08:23.774) Thanks for sharing the wash.
Neill Stanbury (08:25.59) Appreciate it. You're learning something every day, aren't you, Ken?
Cam Nicholls (08:28.27) I'm just I'm grateful that I didn't need to go down that path. Now I'm hearing about it. If you know, from my perspective, it was when I was experiencing the bike the hip pain, what I learned was it was all bike fit related. Yes. So people are out there experiencing hip pain and they haven't had a professional bike fit. You know, from somebody who understands human biomechanics first and foremost, probably a good place to start before you start looking at surgery options.
Neill Stanbury (08:33.568) It sucks. Yeah.
Neill Stanbury (08:53.868) Yeah, the surgery is like last resort and it it's not that great. The success rate is kind of iffy. This was a like the hip art the arthroscopic interventions that they do for this, they were sort of first pioneered probably twenty odd years ago, so it's a relatively young procedure. Yep. And it's not greatly understood the long term outcomes 'cause it's just such a young procedure. We haven't had it for very long. No worries at all.
Cam Nicholls (09:17.55) Well thanks sharing. And I will catch everyone in the next YouTube video and podcast.
Wed, 17 Jun 2026 - 09min - 92 - Thinking About Hiring a Cycling Coach? Here's What Actually Happens
Thinking about hiring a cycling coach but not sure what's actually involved?
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with RCA coach and sports scientist Ben Treble to pull back the curtain on the coaching process and explain exactly what recreational and amateur cyclists can expect when they start working with a coach.
Whether you're training 6–12 hours per week, struggling to improve your FTP, getting dropped on group rides, preparing for a Gran Fondo, or simply looking to become a stronger and healthier cyclist, this conversation covers the complete journey from onboarding through to long-term performance improvements.
RCA coaching: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
In this episode you'll learn:
✅ What happens during a cycling coaching onboarding call ✅ Why goal setting is more important than FTP targets alone ✅ How coaches analyse your training history and cycling data ✅ The difference between FTP and Critical Power testing ✅ How TrainingPeaks is used to deliver and monitor training ✅ Why accountability is often the missing ingredient for improvement ✅ The role of recovery weeks and periodisation ✅ How coaches adjust training around work, family and illness ✅ Common mistakes recreational cyclists make when training themselves ✅ How structured coaching helps break through performance plateaus
Ben also explains how coaching extends far beyond simply prescribing intervals. From nutrition and recovery to training load management and identifying performance blind spots, coaching provides the structure and accountability many cyclists need to unlock their potential.
If you've ever wondered whether cycling coaching is worth it, or what the process looks like behind the scenes, this episode will answer your questions.
🚴 Perfect for recreational cyclists, Gran Fondo riders, masters athletes, endurance cyclists and anyone looking to train smarter and achieve better results.
Subscribe for more evidence-based cycling training, nutrition, bike fitting and performance content from the Road Cycling Academy.
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, where today I am joined by the RCA's European correspondent Ben Treble, who's also a science data geek that digs into all the research. But today we're actually, Ben, we're not going be talking so much about the research, although I know your approach is very research based. So no doubt we'll be sprinkling that a little bit into the topic of today's discussion. But what I wanted to do today is talk about what does the process look like if
I'm a recreational slash amateur road cyclist. You know, I've been training anywhere between six to twelve hours per week, depending on the week. And I'm kind of stuck on a performance plateau. I've been thinking about getting a coach, but I'm a little bit un uncertain. Maybe it feels a little bit beyond me, or maybe it feels like it's going to be another thing in my life. But I I kinda I don't really know. I know people improve a lot when they get a coach, but I don't know if I can commit to it or or what's involved. So
I thought maybe you could share how you work with RCA members, which are essentially men, women between the ages of, you know, thirty-five to sixty-five, that busy lifestyles, jobs, families, you know, life stresses, but they want to improve on the bike. So let's peel it back. Let's just say somebody doesn't really know you know they know s coaching's gonna help them improve, but they don't know what's involved. So my name's Joe Blow.
I'm thinking about getting coached. Ben, what's it gonna look like?
Ben Treble (02:00.162) Yeah. You're gonna you're gonna sign up to the RCA and the first step is we're gonna get you scheduled in for an onboarding call, which kind of sets the stage for what's gonna happen afterwards. In that onboarding call, we're just gonna have a big discussion. We're gonna talk about primarily it's a it's an opportunity to get to know each other, but second it's an opportunity for me as a coach to get your context, get your history.
And we're gonna start to have the first conversations on what is one of the most important parts of working with a coach and that's goal setting. I think it's something most athletes are typically not very good at doing.
Cam Nicholls (02:41.304) Yeah, and I think some people come into cycle coaching with a an expectation that they have to have like a event goal or, you know, a specific of you know, something that's happening on a certain time and I need to be, you know, peeking for for that. Whereas I know a lot of our members actually yeah, once once I have a call with them, because I like I'm typically speaking, you know, as in the inquiry guide to them before they join.
No, you don't need a specific event goal. You don't need to be racing your bike. You can literally just want self improvement. But then within that self improvement, you're breaking down what does that look like?
Ben Treble (03:24.76) Exactly right. I can think of a perfect example. It's probably one of my longest standing athletes I've worked with at the RCA. He did just do his first event recently, but we've been working together for well over a year now, and he never had any necessary intention to do any events. He wasn't racing in the history. His goals were quite simple in some respects and beautiful. One was he wanted to get fit and healthy
So he was a good role model for his daughter. And he wanted to get fit and healthy for himself so he could enjoy life a bit better. And he also just found cycling really enjoyable. and he only did indoor training at this point in time when we started. Interesting. So a very different set to maybe what is more traditional where someone says, I'm a master's writer and I'm gonna do a grand fondo in twelve weeks' time.
Cam Nicholls (04:09.912) Interesting.
Ben Treble (04:21.633) And I would like to qualify for the UCI Grand Fondo Worlds.
Cam Nicholls (04:25.698) Yep. Okay. So in this call, if someone says, yeah, look, I just want to increase my FTP, do you just go, Great, let's just increase it? Or do you set things a little bit differently? And how do you determine where to go? Because obviously you're having a conversation, but do you in that initial call, are you like looking at the previous riding history? are people, you know
Are you getting them familiar with training peaks, which is the software application we use for the calendar and looking at the data, or are most people already familiar with it?
Ben Treble (05:00.642) Most people are familiar with training peaks or a similar athlete management system. if they're not familiar with it in this initial meeting, I'm not going to spend massive amounts of time on that because you could spend days doing this. That initial meeting is the time has to be focused on getting the context of the athlete. So what's their training history, which might be I'm very new to the sport to I've been training for fifteen years, you know, varied periods of time from seven to twelve hours a week.
So you could have big different levels of experience and there's often a injury context. So, you know, I've recently had diabetic people who are trying to improve diabetes. I've had people who are coming back from back injuries, very common back or knee injuries. maybe they've not been riding for twelve months because of that and they're trying to come back into the sport. So the context is that's a big part of the conversation.
Then there's the availability piece. We're trying to tick this off relatively quick, which is, you know, what days can you ride? How many hours are you willing to commit to? That sort of thing. Part of that is looking at their training history. So objectively, I tend to look at if they have training peaks, I'll go in before this conversation and look at how many hours they do a week. And I'll ask them, how many hours do you think you do a week? And they always overestimate it. Interesting. And then I show them, I show them the data in training peaks. I'll screen share and be like,
I know you said you think you're doing eight to ten hours a week, but unless you're not syncing your data into training peaks completely, says you're only doing five to six. So there's sometimes we just try and set the scene a little bit here and put in some reality checks. When someone says, I'm doing eight hours a week and I want to move up to twelve, if they're only doing five hours a week in reality, you're not going to jump to twelve. Yep. Straight away. So I like to do that. And then the goal setting is the next biggest piece. And if
That's a very common thing. Someone says, I want to lift my threshold. I want to improve FTP or what's worse is I just want to improve, you know, my cycling. And I'll ask them why. So Cam, Joe Blow, why? Tell me why you want to improve your FTP.
Cam Nicholls (07:10.196) because I I'm struggling on the local group ride. I'm you know, I'm in in the D in the B group and I feel like I could be better in the B group and I want to get to the A group.
Ben Treble (07:21.816) Yeah, so tell me what do you struggle with the most in the B group?
Cam Nicholls (07:26.002) look, towards the end of the ride I just tend to fatigue out a bit and I go from being able to roll some turns and then I'm at towards the back and there's this climb at the end where sometimes I get popped and you know, I I don't finish and then other times I make it, but I'm always just struggling in the last part of the ride.
Ben Treble (07:43.778) Yeah. So already asking more questions, we're digging into some really nice goals, right? It's not I need to lift my FTP. Maybe that is part of the answer, but often we're already digging into two goals. One, you know, it might not be as measurable in terms of power, but it's still measurable. I want to try and move from my B to A group in a bunch ride. Sometimes it's I want to get from, you know, the the C grade crit race, the local crit, up to the B.
And I want to be able to get to the end of my bunch ride and do the kick, which is a durability question. So, okay, we already have two really good goals. Like how do we get you moving along in your program to improve your durability? And then how do we lift you up into the next grade?
Cam Nicholls (08:32.418) Yep, okay. And what if I say to you, Ben, but I I also like this is a not negotiable ride for me. It's the Saturday group ride. I go there with my mates, we have a good time. I really don't want to like I'm happy to do stuff during the week with you, but the Saturday ride I'd really love to keep it. Is that okay?
Ben Treble (08:50.37) Definitely. There might be a time and place where I say you might be better off here missing it for something specific. But at the end of the day, there's a really important component to training. That is you need consistency and volume. Kind of that's the bottom of the the pyramid, if you want. And often to achieve that you have to stay motivated. So if if doing yes, often the bunch ride's not as effective.
If you're doing three bunch rides a week, I'm probably going to try and convince you to drop some. But if your non-negotiable is I want to do one social bunch ride a week, we're going to make room for it. What that might mean though, that might look like, okay, Friday has to be easy or an off day. Or maybe the Sunday has to then be an easy day. I don't want you doing back to backs like doing a crit race on Friday AVO, going into another really hard bunch ride and then buggering yourself for three days.
Cam Nicholls (09:27.704) Okay.
Cam Nicholls (09:44.812) Makes sense. So we've kind of dug into some of the actual underlying drivers behind the FTP goal. you've done a deep dive on, you know, my logistics, my injury history, you've looked at some previous training. What happens next? You you send me off into the abyss or what am I looking at?
Ben Treble (10:06.934) Yeah, we would talk about a few other topics. Always try to touch on sort of in a self self assessment on strengths and weaknesses, which would include reflecting on your recovery and nutrition practices. I don't normally deep dive on them too much, but I just try to get a picture, okay, is that an area that I need to dig into more with you or not? Have you got a good handle? Are you good and up to speed on, you know, modern nutrition practices or not? And if you're not, I usually make a note, a self note to myself.
Okay, next coach call, we're gonna we're gonna have a bigger chat about nutrition as something for us to work on. Once we've got those out of the way, we've got an idea of the schedule where typically we'll have a chat about equipment. I need to get familiar with what power media you're on, do you have heart rate? What bikes do you have? Are you okay doing indoor training? Do you have a preference for indoor outdoor? They're a little bit different. Typically I might prescribe slightly different work if you ride. Some people are very good outdoors with doing their intervals.
And some people really struggle. So there's no point giving somebody thirty fifteens if they have rolling terrain and they just cannot execute them.
Cam Nicholls (11:14.294) Of course.
Ben Treble (11:15.382) So yeah, making sure that the work you prescribe is relevant and feasible for the athlete to pull off, I think is an important part. Maybe I'll try build you up to a point where we can get you to pulling off high quality thirty fifteen's outdoors. Okay.
Cam Nicholls (11:30.936) So then what happens after that? After the call?
Ben Treble (11:34.04) Or I throw you in the deep end. No, I'm just kidding. No, no. So we would wrap up the call typically with a point where normally there's a couple of days where I go away, I take all the information and I build out your initial couple of weeks of training and we put in place a sort of a higher level macro plan. So often there's if there's not an event goal, I do like to put in place a time bound goal. So that might be we want to try
move from, you know, C to B grade at the crit races by the end of the season. So that might that could be three months away, could be six months away. Who knows? Depends on the individual. But we put a time bound goal in place and that helps drive the the macro plan for the training. So the general blocks. We might say month to month, you know, generally we try and put in place, I want to work on these things. I would hand this over to you in training peaks for you to have a look at in a note.
And you can go in and say, That's not gonna work because I'm going actually going away on holidays for four weeks here, or these are some blackout dates, can't do it here. So then we start to do this a little bit back and forward, getting to know each other and the schedule and making sure that everything fits in place and will work for the athlete. Okay.
Cam Nicholls (12:52.974) Okay. And in that first four weeks where you've sent me off into the abyss, a lot of people get a bit nervous about doing tests because, you know, they need to work out their their numbers. and obviously at the RCA, we don't use FTP, we use critical power. So is everyone doing the tests in that first week? What do the tests look like? Or can you look at existing, you know, data? And are some people already
You know, ticking some of the they haven't done the test, but maybe they've done a three minute all out effort in a local bunch ride. So, you know, you don't need to test that. Well, what does that typically look like?
Ben Treble (13:29.762) Yeah. I would at least in the first four weeks we're gonna do critical power testing.
Cam Nicholls (13:34.838) Okay, so what does that look like?
Ben Treble (13:36.728) Yeah, so we'll talk that through. It's normally for me, I'd like to do three efforts, different durations, short, medium, long. First one's around three minutes, next one's five to six, and a long effort could be from ten to fifteen minutes. Ideally, if someone is more of an outdoor rider, I tell them just go find a segment or a climb that's roughly those durations and try do your best time up it. I like to split them across days, do it on three days.
You can do two in one day if you really want. but I typically try to avoid that. I often find the first time you try this, if the athlete's never done it before, the testing doesn't go perfect. There's a familiarization piece, which I kind of expect and it's normal. but I find often if you let them find a local climb or segment where they just try to do their best time up it, it's a lot easier for them to go repeat it. It's also easier for them to go redo.
testing without it feeling like you gotta try do, you know, testing, which people hate testing, which is fine, but we just try and make it as easy as possible. As you said, some people might have a recent power PB. So we can just easily look in training peaks. If you've recently done in the last, you know, sort of 30 days, even up to 60, I would say, if you've done any of those three efforts, like a good P B, we might use that. So then you might only need to do one more effort.
We just have to fill in the gaps. Yep. Equally, if you've done three power BBs across those numbers in the last thirty days already, training peaks is a great feature in its modeled, it's called modeled FTP, FTP. It's in the the beta, I think it's still called beta function charts. And so we can often rely on that relatively well, at least to get a good idea. So if they're very anti testing or depending on their goals and phase of training, if the first couple of weeks are not great to do testing.
Cam Nicholls (15:06.179) Okay.
Ben Treble (15:34.092) And they have some good training history data, we can often get a pretty good idea of critical power without officially testing, but I would still target in that first block to try and do full C P testing. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (15:47.118) Okay. And with the training as a general rule, I know this will depend on the person's goals and how much time you have with them, but let's just say they've got a fair bit of time. Their goals are just general improvement. In that first, you know, four weeks, what is there a typical focus you find? Like do they are you sort of peeling them back a little bit and let's have more of an aerobic focus and and get some of that foundational stuff right? Or do you just go straight into it?
Ben Treble (16:17.314) I actually like to go straight into it a little bit. I do to some respects I get gauge how well they might be able to do some stuff. And I like to put in a a mixture of work because I really want to see how good are they at performing intervals. I want to see how good they are at giving me feedback, like their comments. Do they always put in their RPE? This first month is really important for me to get a gauge on the athlete's ability to do work.
How they respond, what their level of feedback is, and just build upon that. So I might give them quite a mixture of work to do, if there's not a singular focus. But I do find in that initial conversation, it's rare that I can't get them to some good goals. Okay. Everybody who says, I just want to improve my cycling generally, when you start asking them why and really pressing, you get down to those, as we did before with Joe Blow, you get down to those really nice goals of okay, I want to improve durability.
I want to move up from this grade to this grade. I want to get to the end of my bunch ride and still do that big kick. I want to improve my sprint or I'm going on a European holiday and I wanna do climbs, but my nutritio
Wed, 17 Jun 2026 - 37min - 91 - Want to Climb Faster? Here's How to Train for BIG Climbs
Are you planning a cycling holiday in Europe, tackling iconic climbs like the Alps, Dolomites, or Swiss mountain passes? In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with RCA coach and data science specialist Ben Treble to discuss exactly how recreational and amateur cyclists should prepare for a climbing-focused cycling trip.
Ben breaks down the key physiological factors that determine climbing performance, including VO₂ max, fractional utilisation, threshold power, training volume, and cycling-specific nutrition. Together, they outline an 8-week training strategy designed to help cyclists maximise their fitness, improve climbing ability, and arrive in Europe ready to enjoy every ride.
Whether you're heading to the Tour de France region, riding the famous Swiss Alps, taking on Peaks Challenge, or simply wanting to improve your climbing performance, this episode provides practical, science-backed advice you can apply immediately.
In This Episode:✅ Why VO₂ max alone doesn't determine climbing performance ✅ The importance of threshold power and fractional utilisation ✅ How to structure an 8-week climbing preparation plan ✅ VO₂ max training vs threshold training for long climbs ✅ Why recovery weeks (deload weeks) are critical ✅ How to increase training volume safely ✅ The role of low-cadence climbing work and muscular endurance ✅ Nutrition strategies for multi-day cycling trips ✅ Gut training and carbohydrate intake for endurance cyclists ✅ Common mistakes recreational cyclists make before a cycling holiday
Who This Episode Is For: Recreational cyclists Amateur road cyclists Gran Fondo riders Cyclists planning a European cycling holiday Riders preparing for Peaks Challenge, Amy's Gran Fondo, Tour de Brisbane and other climbing events Anyone wanting to improve their climbing performance🎯 Learn more about RCA Coaching: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, where today I am joined by the RCA's European correspondent and data science geek, Ben Treble, who's currently in Sydney but will be in Europe by the time this podcast goes live. Hello, Ben.
Ben Treble (00:43.714) Hey Cam, how are you?
Cam Nicholls (00:45.656) Good, thank you. So today, because you're heading over you're escaping actually you've timed this pretty well now. I'm just talking I'm thinking about this out loud. You're you're you're about to hit the depths of winter in Sydney. And Sydney gets pretty cold. People don't think it does, but it's actually it's a pretty cold winter. And you're moving to Europe, you've got a one way ticket, you're gonna be in Switzerland, one of my favorite places in the world. So you're basically heading into you're going from one summer season to the next summer season.
You're gonna bit you're an expert in summer seasons, essentially. So I thought it would be a good podcast topic to talk about what's the best way not to prepare for a summer season, because we've kind of, you know, you should have been doing that two, three months ago. But maybe you might want to blend that into the conversation. But more so, you know, we're at the start of the summer season. How are we, you know, as a recreational and amateur road cyclist who's training anywhere between sort of six to twelve hours per week, depending on the person.
We might have some goals to, you know, do some Fondo events, do some big climbs. How are we going to tackle the summer season? What's the best approach?
Ben Treble (01:50.926) yeah, I think for me the context here is probably like a bit of a focus on climbing. So it's pretty hard to go over to Europe and not do climbing. I am a s more of a sprinter myself, so why I picked Switzerland as a location is beyond me because I'm definitely not a climber, but you can't really go anywhere without going over some big mountains.
Cam Nicholls (02:15.458) Yeah, and I think this is like relevant to, you know, most people going into their summer seasons because let's face it, even though we don't have huge climbs here in Australia, when people are looking at their summer season, you know, so many people in Australia, you know, peaks has become the biggest fondo event. You know, they target peaks and there is a lot of climbing in peaks. And even some of the smaller fondo events, like Amy's, for example, what's the first thing you do? You go up a fifteen, twenty minute climb and then there's another climb in the middle.
even Tour to Brisbane, which is you know, UCI qualifier, there's a fifth 10, 15 minute climb in the middle or wherever they put it because they change the event every year. So climbing isn't just a European thing. I know you're trying to rub salt in the worm because you've got amazing climbs over there, Ben in Switzerland, but you know, I think it's relevant no matter where you are in the world, because most events have significant climbs.
Ben Treble (03:10.274) Definitely. Yeah. I mean Tura Brizzy, I can think of two athletes where, you know, the performance determinant was the climb. So, you know, it might not be a one hour, two hour climb. Maybe it's only fifteen to twenty minutes depending on your pace. But it's still a big determinant in tour of Brizzy and it's sort of a in some respects it it's a it's a speed hump in the what, one third of the way in. So it's but still it's super important. So climbing does become very important.
I guess I just wanted to talk a bit around a couple different things on this topic. The first is probably what's important in determining climbing performance. So we'll stick to a bit of a focus on climbing and then we'll talk a little bit more around like people who go to Europe. I can think of a number of athletes I'm working with right now who are planning European holidays. That's either from North America, from Australia. I've even had athletes who
wanted to prepare because they were in Australia and just going down to Bright, which is a very famous alpine region in Victoria, where there's a lot of big climbs, which don't don't underestimate. They are equal to many of the big climbs in Europe. They might not have the same altitude, but you can get a similar elevation profile. We're talking, you know, Mount Hotham as a climb in terms of total elevation is massive. It beats probably half the European climbs.
Cam Nicholls (04:33.078) Yeah. How many meters do you hit in Hotham? Are you over fifteen you're definitely over fifteen hundred. Did you hit over two thousand?
Ben Treble (04:40.024) think you do get two at the very top.
Cam Nicholls (04:42.604) That t two thousand, from my understanding of when I climbed the the glibia many many moons ago was altitude actually kicks in at around five hundred meters. Although you probably it's probably quite subtle. Or even a few hundred meters it actually starts kicking in. But once you get to sort of fifteen hundred, two thousand, then the effects are really significant.
Ben Treble (05:05.846) one eight four five
Cam Nicholls (05:07.788) One eight four five. There you go.
Ben Treble (05:10.254) There you go. Anyway, yeah, I think the first thing we should talk about is VO2 Max. We've talked about this a lot on the podcast. I think it's a big topic, but VO2 Max, we often talk about training it to have a higher VO2 Max. Lots of people walk around with their garments, which estimate their VO2 Max. You can think of that, it's like the the engine size, right? You can have a 600 horsepower car, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you've got the
you know, horsepower or the fuel lines to feed enough fuel into the engine to actually achieve and utilize that power, right? Like you need all of the bits underneath. What is your utilization of the engine? So we know this is true. You can see people who have high VO2 maxes, but don't seem to be able to reach the same performance levels of other athletes with the same VO2 max.
Cam Nicholls (06:05.269) More.
Ben Treble (06:06.424) So why? Because the fractional utilization of VO2 Max is lower. Typically the way that we consider fractional utilization of VO2 Max is at your threshold. When we're talking threshold, I'm talking maximal lactate steady state, gold standard. For everybody on the podcast who don't know what that is, you can think of it as your critical power if you want to equivalent FTP. So threshold at w when you ride at your threshold, let's say it's
200 watts, 250 watts. What percentage of your VO2 max are you holding? Really well trained athletes are going to be, you know, using 85% or higher of their VO2 max at threshold. What does that mean? They're relying more on the aerobic energy system and less on the glycolytic. So they're going to use less glycogen, which is one of your, you know, most valuable resources for fuel. So you're going to conserve that glycogen.
For later. Let's you having a high fractional utilization lets you ride at a higher intensity for longer, relying on less glycogen.
Cam Nicholls (07:14.988) So less lactate production.
Ben Treble (07:17.474) Yeah, exactly.
Cam Nicholls (07:19.69) Okay. So that's important for climbing.
Ben Treble (07:23.532) I should reference it's not necessarily less lactate production, it's a higher clearance rate. You're able to utilize lactate better through the aerobic system.
Cam Nicholls (07:32.886) Okay. Because when you started to talk about VO two Max, I was like, well, wait a second, aren't aren't we talking about long climbs? Don't we aren't we just worried about sort of around threshold and maybe a bit of tempo and sweet spot? Like w who cares about? I'm not doing short, punchy climbs around France. I'm just grinding all day long.
Ben Treble (07:54.254) Exactly. Yeah. So VO2 Max is important, but sort of like one piece of the story. I mean, there's two papers. Some of this dates back quite old. you know, back to nineteen ninety-one with newer papers in two thousand and eight, if you want to call that new. particularly there's a scientist Coyle and Joyner have done multiple papers on climbing performance. They really bring it back down to VO2 Max.
Fractional utilization and economy. Now that comes back to really fractional utilisation of threshold to me, and your efficiency on the bike. So Yeah. What we're looking at here, there's a big focus on fractional utilization of VO2 Max and that helps you with your climbing performance.
Cam Nicholls (08:46.542) Okay. Well, tell me, Ben, I'm I'm a recreational and amateur that wants to go rip apart the hills in in Europe. What am I doing then if I wanna increase that?
Ben Treble (08:58.498) Yeah. So you're probably gonna do very different training, but you're gonna take on blocks of VO two work, probably if you're in building blocks. And as you get closer to your actual holiday or your trip, you're gonna start heading more towards threshold blocks and longer. So progressively increase the intervals.
Cam Nicholls (09:19.466) Interesting. So you are gonna s actually almost reverse periodise the zones. So you're going to start more with a VO two focus and then as you get towards the trip time, it's more threshold focused.
Ben Treble (09:36.92) Yeah. I mean you you're never doing one thing in isolation, right? Like physiology is is broad and and mixed, but if we bring it a little simple terms, you're gonna try build the engine as big as possible to start with, which is key sessions on VO2 max and base volume. Then you're gonna bring it back to threshold work, try and lift your threshold. So this is gonna help improve your fractional utilization. And then you're just gonna continually progressively try build out
How long can you hold that for? Right. So maybe when you start doing threshold work, this might be over-unders, for example, where you're sort of dipping, you know, you go over 105% of threshold and you go under 95%. And you might do one minute above, one minute below, and do, you know, maybe at the start you're only doing 10 minutes of this as one set and you try to do two sets. But you want to get to a point where you can do, you know, at least two or three sets of 20 minutes. So then you kind of go to a point where you're doing an hour of over-unders.
In a single session.
Cam Nicholls (10:38.24) An hour of over and unders. Wow, that sounds I want to dig into that. Let's peel it back now. So now you've you've sold me on doing a block of VO two and doing a block of sort of threshold. And I know as you just said, you're not just doing that. You know, you're not doing six sessions a week of VO two and six sessions a week of threshold for for six weeks at a time. It's a variation and variability, but there there are key focus points.
Give me a high level lens. Let's just say I'm going to Europe. When do most people go to Europe? Around Tour de France time, maybe before, maybe after. So June, July. This podcast will probably go live in a couple of weeks. So let's just say we're going live early June for the purpose of this discussion. So we've got we've got eight weeks. You know, the title of this podcast is going to be something like preparing to tackle the the mountains in Europe. Listen to Ben.
Tell you what to do. Won't be exactly that title, but I'm I'm now giving you a a little project here. I've got eight weeks essentially. That that's what we're looking at. What am I doing to really get the most out of my trip?
Ben Treble (11:46.828) Yeah, the first thing I would do is try to maximize volume. And that's gonna depend on, you know, how much recovery time you have and how well you respond and your training history. So have you only been averaging four hours a week in the last three months? Or have you already been doing ten hours a week, even if it's bunch rides and whatnot? That probably changes wha how well you can pull off what you want to pull off.
Cam Nicholls (12:10.414) So let's say well let's say I'm averaging eight to ten hours per week over the last few months. I'm doing a mix of everything, bunch rides, I'm going and doing some clients here and there. Of course, I'm a typical, you know, amateur recreational. I train too hard too often. I'm not having recovery weeks. I'm probably a little bit fatigued, even though I don't think I'm fatigued. you know, the all all the kind of boxes that many recreationals tick before they join us. So I'm that person, Ben.
What I you mentioned you want to focus on volume. So if I'm doing, you know, eight, ten hours a week, does that mean I now want to be doing twelve to fifteen hours per week for the next eight weeks?
Ben Treble (12:48.088) Yeah, I well if you've got the capacity to do it and the ability to recover, if your sleep is good, your nutrition is good, you can probably jump up to the twelve, even fifteen hours a week, right? But if you have a stressful job and you have family and kids, I probably wouldn't move you that fast. I would try to get you up to fifteen by the end of the eight weeks.
Cam Nicholls (12:51.234) Okay.
Cam Nicholls (13:07.478) Okay. Interesting.
Ben Treble (13:09.72) So that's a bigger picture thing. But that first four weeks I would want to focus on VO2 max work.
Cam Nicholls (13:16.11) Okay. And we may or may not have released this podcast by the time this one comes out, but we've we've done one where we talk about short intervals versus long intervals at VO two max. So should there bear any specific focus if you're going over for the longer climb? Should we focus more on the longer? Or once again, it's just variability. Do a mix.
Ben Treble (13:37.39) I would probably start with some variability. Probably wanna shock the system, get some stochastic work going on. So I'd probably do some short intervals to start, but then progress you into the longer VO2 intervals through the end of the block. So if we talk more of a traditional periodization, we've got eight weeks till Europe. First four weeks, we're gonna ramp up for three weeks. So maybe the first week we're gonna do some short intervals, build you into longer intervals through the first three weeks, slowly ramp up your volume.
at the same time. And then we're gonna have fourth week's gonna be a D Load week.
Cam Nicholls (14:11.672) This podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. And as you now know, we've got some massive news for our listeners, especially across Europe. Now at the Road Cycling Academy, we are proud to serve an international audience from our base here in Australia, mate, connecting our US, Canadian, Asian, and of course Australian clients across the days work beautifully. But Europe has always had that unique time zone puzzle. Usually just as our European members are waking up.
Starting their days, we're wrapping up our days and preparing our dinners. Well, that puzzle is now officially solved. Based right out of Switzerland, Ben is servicing our European clients in absolute real time. So if you're in Europe and ready to smash your FTP, nail your nutrition, or unlock your true cycling potential, Ben is right there in your time zone, running our 12-week custom plans and our one-to-one coaching offering.
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So head over to the roadcyclingacademy.com and lock in your spot with Ben today. Let's get back to the episode. Yeah, okay, nice. And what is a if somebody's out there listening, because the we've done a lot of content on this, or you know, we call some people call it an easier week. Some other coaches at the RCA call it an adaptation week to make it sound a bit cooler because no one likes to deload or no one likes to take it easier. But
What is what are people doing in an easier or a D load week and and what's the purpose of it?
Ben Treble (16:07.052) Yeah, I I typically try to aim for a sort of fifty to sixty percent of the same volume as the final third week. So I don't know, let's say you do twelve hours, you know, we're probably gonna try to drop you down to, you know, six or seven hours of volume. Put in an extra full rest day. So you might have two or even three full rest days in that week. And I would still try keep some intensity. So I'd probably have
Still two key sessions, but those key sessions would be, for example, if we're doing short intervals, instead of three by twelve, thirty fifteens, you might only do two by nine, and I would give you fifteen minutes recovery in between the two sets. So really long recovery, less intensity, but still giving you some stimulus. Yep. Through that week. Same with the if we were doing four by four, so longer intervals.
You know, you might only do two or three of them and again give you 10, 15 minutes between them, right? So I find this lets people keep a lot of stimulus going in a delay week. The idea is you you really want the body to recover and have time to adapt to the stress you've just put on it for three weeks. In particular, those first three weeks, by the third week, I'm trying to really push people into a fairly the feedback I'm looking for is.
Maybe I couldn't even finish the last workout. I my legs feel tired. I feel tired. I feel fatigued. That's kind of what you are. You want to feel fatigued by the end of a block. But then you want to go into the recovery week and you wanna be trying to if we talk training peaks numbers,
Tue, 16 Jun 2026 - 30min - 90 - Long vs Short Intervals: Which Builds VO2 Max Faster?
Are short VO2 max intervals better than long intervals for cyclists?
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with coach and data science specialist Ben Treble to unpack one of the most debated topics in endurance training: long intervals versus short intervals for improving VO2 max and cycling performance.
Recent research has suggested that short interval formats such as 30/15s and 40/20s may allow cyclists to accumulate more time above 90% VO2 max compared to traditional 4-minute efforts. But does that automatically make them better?
The answer is more nuanced than most cyclists realise.
Ben breaks down the science behind VO2 max training, glycolytic capacity, VLaMax, lactate production, and why the "best" interval workout often depends on your physiology and cycling goals rather than what the latest study says.
In this episode you'll learn:
✅ Long vs short VO2 max intervals explained ✅ Why some cyclists thrive on 4-minute intervals while others prefer 30/15s ✅ The role of glycolytic capacity (VLaMax) in cycling performance ✅ Why climbers and sprinters often respond differently to the same workout ✅ How to choose intervals based on your physiology ✅ The importance of training variability and periodisation ✅ Why copying professional cyclists isn't always the best approach
Whether you're training for road racing, gravel racing, criteriums, gran fondos, or simply trying to improve your cycling fitness, this episode will help you better understand how to structure your interval training for maximum results.
RCA Coaching: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
Timestamps00:00 Introduction 02:00 Long vs Short Intervals Explained 05:00 Are We Talking About VO2 Max Training? 08:00 Why Short Intervals Became Popular 12:00 Understanding VLaMax and Glycolytic Capacity 17:30 Why Different Cyclists Respond Differently 21:00 Does Research Really Show Short Intervals Are Better? 25:00 Sprinter vs Climber: Which Intervals Should You Choose? 27:00 Training Variability and Periodisation 28:00 Key Takeaways
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, where today I am joined by European correspondent and data science geek Ben Treble. Are you okay to be called a European correspondent now? Ben saying that, well, you're currently in Australia, but in two weeks' time you're gonna be going over and living in Europe.
Ben Treble (00:46.646) Yeah, I'll take it, maybe clarify. I am not European, but I will be moving to Europe permanently and I will be the boots on the ground for RCA when I arrive.
Cam Nicholls (00:59.148) Yeah, you'll be based out of Switzerland. So hopefully that gives us a bit more presence in Europe for not only to support our existing European clients, but anyone considering getting coaching, you know, that who are in Europe and they're like, I don't want to deal with, you know, those Aussies over there. Well, now we've got an Aussi who's, I guess, part Swiss. You know, I know you're going over there with a lovely lady who's from Switzerland. So we'll call you part Swiss for the time being, part European.
Ben Treble (01:25.154) My better half is definitely Swiss. so I'll take a little bit of that.
Cam Nicholls (01:30.05) Nice. So today I wanted to talk about something that popped up in a recent RCA coaching group call. So we have a a catch up with all the coaches at the RCA about once a month. And one of the coaches presents a a topic and one of our coaches, Johan actually, presented a a paper and he did a little bit of practical exercises alongside the research, which he presented, which I thought was pretty cool, about long intervals.
versus short intervals. And I thought the research paper was pretty interesting, Ben. So I gave you the project, being somebody that likes to dig into all the research, to find out is this a real thing? Are certain type of intervals better than the other if you were to focus on one or the other? So Ben, you went away and did some digging. What did you find?
Ben Treble (02:25.998) I do love this topic, particularly 'cause I I love building different workouts and you know, I've been very fortunate to do my cycling certifications, you know, with the UCI. We've had some they had some very good scientists come and present certain topics. For example, Ronastad came over and talked about HIIT training, which has probably been his life's work endurance HIIT training for for some respects as a researcher. Yeah, I love this topic. It's really important.
I think every few years, you know, there's new trends with cycling training and we had HIT training a long time ago, I think. We've had zone two in the last couple of years and it seems to be making a resurgent at the moment across social media that, you know, you've got the classic Norwegian, you know, four by fours, which I would consider long intervals. And now you've got a lot of research coming out from Ronastad and a few other researchers where these short high intensity intervals might be better. And when we're talking about
those short high intensity interval sets we're talking about anything from your 30 fifteens. So that would be 30 seconds on, 15 seconds easy, and you repeat this between nine to twelve reps, then you have a rest period, and then you do a second and potentially third set of those short intervals. There is no universal answer to which one is is better, Cam. So everyone always hates me when I say it's a context that matters the most. So
We can bring this back to why do we train? We need to create stimulus for the athletes. And every interval is going to create a stimulus, but the stimulus for the individual is where it differs and varies. So should you do long or short intervals is going to come back to what type of athlete are you physiologically and what are your goals?
Cam Nicholls (04:16.183) Can I also just preface and you know this before you continue, because when we talk about intervals, you can do zone two intervals if you really wanted to. Most people don't. They kind of just ride zone two. But you can certainly do tempo intervals. You can certainly do sweet spot intervals. So these are all sort of below threshold. But when we're talking about long and short for this conversation and I guess the research on this topic, I'm assuming
We're talking about intervals that are kind of above threshold, kind of in that VO2 max category. I guess probably pretty much in that VO2 max category because a all anaerobic intervals are probably gonna be short. I don't think anyone's doing a 10-minute anaerobic effort. And threshold training, correct me if I'm wrong, is would mostly be deemed as long interval training because it's gonna be at least three to four.
four minutes bare minimum in length. So are we specifically talking about VO2 max training when we're talking about short versus long? Or is there a line in the sand?
Ben Treble (05:25.932) Yeah, I think for the purpose of this conversation, it's gonna be in reference to trying to improve VO two max. So what's going on in the media is obviously there's an awful lot of discussion around VO two max being a very important metric. We're not gonna debate how important VO two max is in this podcast, but it is a very important metric. It's definitely not the entire picture, it's one one metric among many that would help you understand how your training is working. But yeah.
So long versus short intervals, maybe I'll just run through them both to keep it clear, but long intervals sort of anywhere from four to eight minutes, typically on or slightly above threshold. this would be, you know, akin to the Norwegian four by fours, obviously being four minutes, so it's going to be typically a bit higher, potentially a hundred and ten, up to a hundred and twenty percent, depending on what papers you look at. And then you have four minutes easy, repeat. This typically allows you a VO2 max to climb.
really high. So the VO2 kinetics are going to climb and hold. and then you typically get we'd call it full recovery between those intervals. The short intervals are going to be the on phase anywhere from it's it can be as short as 15 seconds, but more common is going to be 30 or 40 seconds with either 15 or 20 seconds rest. So very short rest. The 30-15 component is typically around 120% of threshold. Sometimes it's harder.
Certain research papers have tested should the 30 be maximal. So a common example that's very hard to prescribe in practical sense is going to be Ronostad did some papers where the 3015s were if the set is 12 reps, the athlete had to try and keep the highest possible mean power within the whole set. So the 30s were essentially maximal.
And then the 15s were still moderate. They were not easy. So that's there's nuances to this in the research. It's not all the same, which is probably important for everybody to understand that you often hear and people are citing research, but they'll talk about 30-15s, but if you really dig into it, it's not always the same protocol in there. But yeah, VO2 max tends to stay elevated with the short intervals. That's the idea that it doesn't drop. You get higher lactate accumulation, but
Ben Treble (07:51.18) you get a bit more rest from a muscular point of view. So the cardiovascular system, the rest is short enough that your heart rate can drop, but not too much. You're trying to keep it up. But then you get more muscular recovery. So that's the idea. The other thing that where this came from, long versus short, is Ronastud talks about how do we do VO two max work but for less rate of perceived exertion. So can we achieve a similar outcome?
Which is spending as much or accumulating as much time as possible above ninety percent VO2 max, but for less effort.
Cam Nicholls (08:29.602) Yep. Makes sense. Like for me, the thought of doing like a five minute VO two max effort on an indoor trainer is like absolute death. Whereas doing thirty fifteens and getting myself a cumulative time of thir you know, five minutes at that same power, but in thirty second increments, so much easier.
Ben Treble (08:51.106) Yeah, but it's gonna depend. Like if you talk to a highly aerobic athlete, they're probably gonna prefer longer intervals. Like it'll feel potentially feel easier. And for certain athletes, they find the short, harder intervals easier. The bit that's often missing, I think, here is consideration for the glycolytic capacity. So, you know, if we just quickly touch on what the research is is showing
We're trying to drive more time above 90% VO2 max. You know, this is there's plenty of papers on this. We can link them in the podcast. But Ronastadt is a big one on this. Alpenhans, and I'll pronounce this wrong, but Scovering also did studies on this. most of the studies on well-trained cyclists also have been repeated on runners and triathletes, so I think it's fairly reproducible. But the VO2 max of these athletes are a bit higher. So we have to really keep in mind.
These studies are typically done on well-trained athletes. And what you do see in well-trained athletes is they tend to have a lower glycolytic capacity. They have more slow twitch muscle fibers, they're more aerobic, they're less sprinter. When we look at our recreational cyclists, let's take the RCA for example. Generally speaking, people who are new to cycling, people who don't do a lot of endurance training or have a a low history of high volume endurance training tend to have
a higher glycolytic capacity and tend to have more type two fibers. So how relevant is this for the all these people who are reading this research? This is the bit that's kind of missing for me. And this was what sparked this podcast when we had this team discussion. I was thinking it was a little bit missing from this conversation as well. So interest. I mean, have you ever considered it?
Cam Nicholls (10:33.762) Sing
look, I I more so think about training now when you know, I'm training myself for event is variability. So not looking at one or the other, you know, is longer better or is shorter better, which one should I be doing? But appreciating the fact that if I'm going to be constantly, you know, just the old general adaptation syndrome constantly shocking the working muscle so they can adapt and don't get stagnant.
I've got to change up what I'm doing. So if I'm spending, you know, six weeks on VO2 Max, I'm not doing all long intervals. I'll do a blend of short intervals and unfortunately long, even though I don't like the long ones. I prefer the shorter ones because I I realize and I know actually it's interesting when I'd start doing the three to five minute VO2 max intervals, for me personally, that's probably the biggest stimulus that I get from my training. I notice once I've done that for like two or three weeks.
I'm like, well, okay, now I've I feel like I've got another gear. Whereas the short intervals, even though I find them easier and in the science it says, yeah, if you you're spending more time above ninety percent. So technically they're more effective. I don't find for me personally they're more effective. It's the longer ones interesting, but I do both.
Ben Treble (11:54.614) Okay. That's good. I think we'll we can loop back to that because I think there's a lot more to be said for that than I think it's underrated, essentially. for the it's cohort of people listening to this anyway. Let's I'm just gonna jump into glycolytic capacity because I think that's let's kinda just I'll discuss it. Maybe one of the ways that you can consider measuring it or how it's typically measured in the literature. I would say it's a little controversial and it's
Probably new metric for you, Cam, but it has been around for some time. It's called VLA max. This is the maximal lactate production rate. So you've heard of VO2 max. You can understand what VLA max is. So the V stands for flux rate. Obviously, O2 is oxygen and max is maximal. So what is the flux, the production rate of your oxygen and its maximal? So VO2 max, your maximal consumption rate of oxygen. Likewise, VLA max is
V flux LA is lactate max, so maximal lactate production rate. Why is that a good marker for glycolytic capacity? So if we really think George Brooks is probably one of the most well known researchers on lactate, I think most people now know that lactate is not a negative thing. We have two energetic systems in a simple model, shall we say? You have the aerobic and the anaerobic system, probably better termed glycolytic, but they work together, right?
Glycolytic system, it's producing lactate. And if we think of it like the exhaust, the aerobic system needs that lactate to go through the oxidation process. It's an input to allow it to produce ATP. So their systems are constantly working, and you have this thing called the lactate shuttle, right? So we're each side producing, consuming, moving the lactate through both sides. This is where, you know, I would say the original threshold is coming from, which would be.
maximal lactate steady state. To me that is the gold standard for your threshold when people talk about threshold these days. And that's the point at which your production of lactate meets the combustion. So bring it back to VLA Max. If you can produce more lactate, you're gonna be more glycolytic because you need lactate for glycolysis to work really well. Where do we produce the most lactate? It's in your type two fibers. They're more glycolytic. So
Ben Treble (14:22.432) If you're more sprinter, you're going to be more glycolytic, more type two, type two X fibers, you're going to be able to produce more lactate. But it often comes at a cost to a weaker aerobic system because you have less type one fibers, which is where the oxidation of the lactate occurs. How do we measure VLA max? This is the probably most tricky part, and which is why we won't get too stuck into it. But there's various tests. Typically, there was a 15 second test done on an SRM ergometer.
I think the new literature brought brings it out to a 20-second sprint test to account for the a-lactic time period. And then they actually did this with measuring lactate, which we know is not feasible for most people still. They're not measuring lactate at home. And then you can use this as a measure, right? It's typically you get these ranges of VLA max of anywhere from a very low, let's say 0.2, which you would expect in a highly aerobic trained climber type athlete with high volumes.
Maybe a triathlete even, all the way up to, you know, your weld to a sprinters at say 0.7, 0.8 even, maybe in a track sprinter. Very high glycolytic capacity. So there's a bit of a range. And if you know this range, this is what helps you understand why long, short intervals have different effects on different people.
Cam Nicholls (15:41.014) Hmm, interesting.
Ben Treble (15:43.426) I know this is going a little bit deep, probably over some people's heads, so I can already see your eyes glazing, Kem.
Cam Nicholls (15:50.104) No, it's actually I'll you were going pretty deep there, but I now you've come back to essentially tying into what I was saying earlier about what I found in my own training, how actually, you know, despite what's maybe some of the papers say that one's better, it's dependable. This podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. And as you now know, we've got some massive news for our listeners, especially across Europe. Now at the Road Cycling Academy, we are proud to serve an international audience from our base here in Australia, mate.
Connecting our US, Canadian, Asian, and of course Australian clients across the days work beautifully. But Europe has always had that unique time zone puzzle. Usually, just as our European members are waking up, starting their days, we're wrapping up our days and preparing our dinners. Well, that puzzle is now officially solved. Based right out of Switzerland, Ben is servicing our European clients in absolute real time.
So if you're in Europe and ready to smash your FTP, nail your nutrition, or unlock your true cycling potential, Ben is right there in your time zone running our 12 week custom plans and our one to one coaching offering. If you want proof that Ben can do a good job for you, just go check out our Google reviews. Our members consistently rave about his deep scientific approach, his game changing whole food fueling strategies.
And his ability to consistently get riders to improve by a minimum of ten to twenty percent on their FTP or we use critical power at the RCA in as little as three months. Spots are of course limited, so head over to the roadcyclingacademy.com and lock in your spot with Ben today. Let's get back to the episode.
Ben Treble (17:37.74) Yeah. And so we're gonna I will loop this back to try and make this feasible for people to picture at home where they sit on the scale. So I'm gonna talk about two edge cases because it just stretches out the extremes to make it clear are the differences. But if you had two athletes, one is very sprinter, very glycolytic, you've got one that's more of a climber, high volume, very aerobic type guy. Let's take the long intervals. Let's say they both had a similar VO2 max.
Similar threshold, but one is just more glycolytic than the other. What happens when they do the four by four minutes? Right? The aerobic, so the low VLA max guy, the climber, is getting more of a glycolytic stimulus. It sounds counterintuitive, but the sprinter guy needs less of a glycolytic stimulus when he does those long intervals. So
By the numbers, I won't go too deep on thi
Wed, 10 Jun 2026 - 29min - 89 - The Simple 6-Week FTP Boosting Plan Most Cyclists Ignore
Are you stuck on a cycling performance plateau? Have your FTP gains stalled despite doing hard intervals, bunch rides and endless VO2 max sessions?
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Road Cycling Academy Head Coach Ryan Thomas explains why a dedicated block of tempo training (Zone 3) may be the missing piece in your training program.
Many recreational and amateur cyclists spend too much time riding hard and not enough time developing their aerobic engine through structured progression. Ryan outlines a simple 6-week tempo training framework designed to improve muscular endurance, increase efficiency, reduce fatigue and set you up for bigger FTP gains later in the season.
You'll learn:
✅ Why tempo training is one of the most underrated zones in cycling ✅ How to structure a 4-8 week training block for maximum benefit ✅ Why most cyclists plateau despite training hard ✅ The difference between random intensity and strategic progression ✅ How to reduce heart rate drift and improve aerobic efficiency ✅ How tempo training fits alongside bunch rides and high-intensity sessions ✅ What training should come after a tempo block ✅ Why amateur cyclists should train differently to professional cyclists
Whether you're training for gran fondos, road races, criteriums, bunch rides or simply want to improve your FTP, this episode provides a practical framework that can help you train smarter and achieve more sustainable gains.
📥 Download Ryan's Tempo Progression PDF below.
Topics Covered:
Tempo Training for Cyclists Zone 3 Cycling Training FTP Improvement Cycling Performance Cycling Training Plans Endurance Cycling Threshold Training VO2 Max Training Heart Rate Drift Cycling Coaching Road Cycling Academy Amateur Cycling Performance How to Increase FTP Structured Cycling Training Cycling Fitness ProgressionDownload the PDF here
RCA's 12 Week Custom Plan: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/cycling-plan-custom/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach Ryan Thomas. And today we're going to extend a conversation we had recently about a simple way or a simple format or framework you can utilize to increase FTP. And it's all about periodizing through the zones or spending, you know, strategic periods of your training working specific zones. Right. And according to you said something interesting, Ryan, in that chat, which I've kind of clung on to.
Which I think is really easy if if somebody's out there listening that that they can think about. I think YouTube and the internet is just covered in all sorts of different you know, workouts you can do, ways you can boost VO2 threshold and people will see a workout or they'll see something online and they'll go I'll try that. And they might try it for a week or two weeks or just not long enough. So, you know, understanding the way training peaks calculates fitness, they look at a six week rolling average.
Forty-two days. Why is that? Because, you know, in a lot of the literature, you know, s it's sort of it doesn't implicitly say, but it suggests that you need roughly around six weeks for the body to sort of absorb a stressor that you're putting on it. In this case, you might be targeting a specific zone. And that's the stress. It could be upper anaerobic, it could be a VO2, it could be threshold. So today we're going to dial it right back and talk about if someone wanted to start on this journey.
Where's the best place to start?
Ryan Thomas (01:54.818) Zone three of tempo. It's usually the first place you would go.
Cam Nicholls (01:58.444) Okay. So let's talk about it.
Ryan Thomas (02:00.034) Yeah. So I think the like most people would see zone two. It's plus zone two's plus it everywhere. And they've you people are usually doing some sort of zone two and then some sort of high intensity. Yep. And I think the the thing that most people come to the RCA with is either fatigue or they're plateaued. So they're struggling to get an improvement and they're doing bunch rides and they're doing random intensity and usually it comes with fatigue. So I guess the negative
Taking a step back. The negative of doing a lot of high intensity is the neuromuscular fatigue, the nervous system fatigue that just goes on and on and on and you don't give it a rest. The benefit of zone three of tempo is there's not a whole lot of neuromuscular fatigue. It's mainly ki you're keeping everything under threshold. You're not getting to a point where you're in that hard or severe domain where you're really getting you're really having to work hard. It's just working on efficiency, endurance and muscular endurance. So I don't think it's something that people
dedicate time to for a six week period or it doesn't have to be six weeks, four to eight weeks, whatever it is. But I think it's really beneficial if you just focus on it for six weeks. Most people get to the end of that and they're like, I just feel good. Like I just feel good at riding in zone two, three threshold. You just feel steady, comfortable at riding at that. It's a very different sensation to doing VO2 and feeling really good at high power, but it's really beneficial for when you actually get into that type of work. So
Cam Nicholls (03:21.154) Yeah, okay.
Ryan Thomas (03:22.05) Kinda wanna start. We'll have a progression when you you'll be able to see this laid out, but six weeks kinda wanna start.
Cam Nicholls (03:28.01) So when you say you'll be able to see this, we've got a downloadable for people below.
Ryan Thomas (03:31.266) Yes, PD downloadable PDF goes through every progression week in for six weeks. and you do these once to twice a week. And you can do the same workout. So a lot of the things that we do, we try to keep it interesting, but if you get down to the basics, doing the same workout twice in a week is completely fine. Like that's you're hitting the same physiology. It actually is probably the best way to do it. So we're starting super simple tempo, zone three, eighty to eighty five percent of your threshold or critical power.
And we're doing that for 10 minutes, three by ten minutes with five minutes recovery in zone one. So that's a pretty easy workout. And most people will go and do that and be like, that didn't really do anything. Like it felt really easy, didn't really get my heart rate high. It was like I want to go harder. And that you should feel like that. In tempo stuff, you kind of should feel like you want to go harder. But it's really important for this type of work is to stay controlled. Stay in your zone because we're working on efficiency and muscular endurance. You go harder.
What starts happening is you start accumulating lactate, your heart rate starts to rise, you start acc recruiting fast-rich muscle fibers, that starts adding the fatigue and it takes away, it's not targeting what you want it to. So you get up around threshold, very glycolytic dependent, you're a lot of glycogen down in tempo, just kind of mixed fat and carbs. So there's a whole bunch of stuff happening there that we're targeting. So as soon as you get above the target, kind of not doing it. So it's really important to teach control.
Minimise that fatigue week in, week out, and we do it for six weeks.
Cam Nicholls (04:58.914) Yeah, okay. And you you know, if people are gonna adopt something like this where they do target an upper end aerobic zone being tempo in this case, they can still do a like a bunch ride once a week or something where they just go tear it to shreds. But the rest of the riding is done in more of that strategic Yes. Obviously a bit of zone two, but also the tempo that you talk about.
Ryan Thomas (05:12.822) Hundred percent.
Ryan Thomas (05:20.11) Yes. And I to like high intensity interval training. Zone three is h interval training. It's intensity. It's just lower intensity than what a bunch ride would be or a VO two session or a threshold would be. And that that's there's a reason for that. We want to keep it reasonably easy. By the end of the six weeks, the progression goes through when we increase time in zone three. We increase the percentage light slightly up to ninety percent. We decrease recovery.
during those intervals and we get all the way up to the last interval session in the at the six week mark is a forty to forty five minute effort at eighty five to ninety percent of threshold. Or you can do two by twenties at eighty five to ninety percent. So up to you. But that's a hard effort. Like you do forty five minutes at ninety percent the top end, by the end of it you're gonna be hurting. But that's the whole point. We start easy and gradually overload, gradually stress the system a little bit more each week and that starts to give really good benefits. This podcast is
Cam Nicholls (06:13.294) Brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. If you're a recreational or amateur road cyclist and you're stuck on a frustrating performance plateau, feeling like you need some guidance, but you're not quite ready to dive straight into one-to-one coaching. At the RCA, we've created something called the 12-week custom plan, which we believe would be your perfect next step. It starts off with an upfront deep dive call with your coach who will understand your goals, your riding preferences, what your not negotiable rides are.
And where you want to go, then they'll create a fully tailored 12-week custom plan that is supported over the 12-week period. We believe it's the perfect intermediate step, giving you a taste of working with a coach and experiencing a customized plan without committing to full coaching. Our writers are seeing real results too, and you can go to our Google reviews to see this. Marvin recently shaved over 30 minutes off his Grafton to Inverel time from doing the 12-week custom plan.
Adam gained 20 watts on his FTP in 12 weeks and 40 watts on his five minute power. And we have riders completing rides that they've failed in previous attempts, like Peaks, Challenge, all from doing this 12 week custom plan. So if you're ready to break through, head to the roadcyclingacademy.com. In the menu system, you'll see our 12 week custom plan and take the first step towards that next level performance. Now let's get back to the podcast. Okay.
So if someone was to do this, first and foremost, what should they experience over the six weeks if they're focusing majority of their work on upper end aerobic?
Ryan Thomas (07:49.716) Usually you will decrease your RPE at that level. So we have to keep in mind that the intensity is increasing slightly, the intervals are getting longer. So theoretically we want to see less drift over that time. So if the first session is more of an introductory session, so it's not super taxing at all. But as the weeks go on, that heart rate at that power level, let's say eighty five percent, we should see that heart rate come down a little bit. So if you're finishing one of those intervals and you're finishing at 160 beats per minute,
Keep an eye on that. Note where your finishing heart rate is sitting. And then over the weeks, compare, this week I finished my 12 minute effort on my 15 minute effort and it was 155. That's five beats less than what I was doing in the first week. So that heart rate drop, the the decrease in decoupling. So what's your heart rate doing in the first effort versus the last effort? That should change week in, week out. And you should be out theoretically, you should be able to push the higher end of the zones as well in terms of power.
Cam Nicholls (08:43.116) Yeah. That's certainly what I noticed when I used to coach people as you'd see in these tempo efforts is that, you know, their heart rate would just be drifting or decoupling, as you said. And it would be quite high. And then after sort of four or five weeks it's stopped drifting as much and it comes down. And they're like, this session's feeling really easy. And it's like, Well, look, you can't have vascular systems responding. you're adapting to the training.
So I think it's interesting training for people because yeah, mu people say, Well, I do tempo work, but you you're probably doing tempo when you're supposed to be doing zone two. A lot of people do that because tempo feels a bit eas easier and you're probably doing a random tempo effort and fading out towards the end. Yeah. You're not doing strategic blocked work where you're giving yourself recovery and then going again. Yeah. So what's one of the negative things people can experience if they did this type of training? And I'm maybe I'll put some words in your mouth here because I feel like, you know, people do
Ryan Thomas (09:26.07) Yes, exactly.
Cam Nicholls (09:35.5) Yeah, their goal is to do the local group ride. They want to get from the A to the B group or the B to the A group, I should say. Not the other way around or, you know, they're racing or or something like that. You will over time tend to lose a bit of that upper end stuff by doing this, won't you? So don't expect to get really good sprint power or anaerobic power from this type of training.
Ryan Thomas (09:41.824) Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (09:57.24) Yeah, and typically I wouldn't as a coach and prescribing this stuff, I wouldn't do it sol would this wouldn't be your only intensity in a six week period. You wouldn't usually only do this type of work. So if you're gonna implement this, maybe you choose this once a week or during three interval sessions, you do this twice a week and then you do bunch ride or you do some sprints or you do some sort of high intensity stuff to maintain that because we don't want to lose that.
Like you're going through training, it you don't need to be doing only one thing. It's like you're not gonna go out and do six weeks of zone two only because you're gonna lose a lot of your top end. Get bored. Yeah, and you get bored. So yeah, there's other important factors, but focusing on that natural progression each week, using one to two workouts a week where you can do it and then do other stuff around it as well.
Cam Nicholls (10:43.214) Yeah. And there is like even if you did say you wanted to overindex on it, because I've certainly done this before. I've gone, you know what, I'm just spending the next four to six weeks, mainly zone two and tempo. And I might do one bunch ride. And I don't care if my bunch ride is not that great. As long as I can get through it. Mm-hmm. Once I then get to the next round of training, I'm fresh. So when I do get into the intense stuff, I'm like, I'm ready to go. Plus I've got a really robust aerobic base because I've kind of maybe overindexed on it.
Ryan Thomas (11:02.296) Yes.
Cam Nicholls (11:10.85) been willing to push aside the high intensity stuff for a period, but I'm it pays dividends longer term. That's certainly been the case for me.
Ryan Thomas (11:18.094) I think this is it's a really good point and I think it's so much more applicable to the everyday amateur athlete than it is a professional athlete. Exactly. So
that they will see what the pros are doing and say, I just need to do that. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. No I've like far from the truth. It's because they have so much time to recover. You have no time to recover as a full time dad worker. You literally can't spend like your rest your recovery time is the hour before you go to sleep. Yep. So it's like there's no recovery time there. So if you're constantly doing trying to replicate what the pros are doing, it's not going to work. You need that period of training where you're not stressing your body too much. Yeah.
So that you when it comes time to do four weeks of VO two work, you're ready and you can really crush that for four weeks and then you back it off. Go again.
Cam Nicholls (12:09.558) If you wanted to go buy the book, not that there's a book about this, but if you wanted to like take it to the next level and maybe this is a the next video and podcast we do, what happens after this six weeks? What are we transitioning to? More sweet spot, threshold, sub threshold work? Would that be the next one?
Ryan Thomas (12:26.04) Yeah, you would mix in a bit of threshold and VO two. So you kinda wanna take it up. So usually twelve to sixteen weeks is kind of the period of training for any this is what we've found out of the RCA is that any amateur athlete who has other stuff going on, if you're training for more than twelve to sixteen weeks in a block, usually you're gonna start to fatigue. And if you don't rest before that sixteen weeks and you keep going and going and going, you're gonna drop or you're gonna plateau and it's gonna be really hard. So don't wanna think about training too much in the long term because there's so much context for these sub
for everyone listening. So we focus on that six weeks and then the six to eight weeks after that, that's where you want to really knuckle down. And that's where you're going to get your peak fitness out of. And we don't want to sustain that for much longer. And the way you peak your fitness is VO two, threshold, sprints, anaerobic work. Depends what your goal is. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (13:14.638) Okay. Cool. All right. Well, we'll leave it at that. Ryan's put together a, as we mentioned earlier, a PDF which goes through some workout progression in tempo that you can do. We'll put a link to it below and we'll catch everyone in the next show.
Tue, 02 Jun 2026 - 13min - 88 - Time to Move on from FTP Tests (Critical Power Simply Explained)
In this episode of the Road Cycling Academy podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with RCA Head Coach Ryan Thomas to break down one of the most talked-about topics in modern cycling training: Critical Power vs FTP.
If you've ever wondered:
What is critical power? Is FTP testing outdated? How do you test critical power? Why do some cyclists struggle at threshold but excel in VO2 max efforts? How do professional coaches use power profiling?…then this episode is for you.
Start the RCA's 12 Week Custom Plan: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/cycling-plan-custom/
Ryan explains critical power in simple, practical terms for recreational and amateur cyclists — without getting lost in overly scientific jargon. The conversation explores why many coaches and platforms are now moving beyond traditional 20-minute FTP testing and toward more accurate methods of assessing cycling performance and training zones.
The episode also covers:
The difference between FTP and Critical Power Why critical power better reflects lactate threshold How to perform a simple 3-minute and 12-minute critical power test What W' (W Prime) means in cycling performance How power curves reveal what type of rider you are Why some riders are naturally stronger at VO2 max than threshold The importance of testing multiple energy systems How coaches use power profiling to personalise training Why FTP alone often fails to tell the full storyCam and Ryan also discuss real-world coaching examples from recreational cyclists and criterium racers, showing how two riders with similar FTPs can have completely different strengths on the bike.
Whether you're training for:
criterium racing, gran fondos, endurance cycling events, climbing performance, or simply trying to become a stronger recreational cyclist,this episode will help you better understand your physiology, your training zones, and how to train smarter.
Topics Covered Critical Power Testing FTP vs Critical Power Lactate Threshold Cycling Power Curves VO2 Max Training Threshold Training Cycling Coaching Cycling Performance Testing Power-Based Training TrainingPeaks W Prime Explained Cycling Physiology Recreational Cycling Performance Amateur Cycling Training About the RCA PodcastThe RCA Podcast from the Road Cycling Academy is designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists who want practical, science-based advice on:
cycling training, nutrition, strength training, bike fitting, recovery, and performance improvement.🎧 Listen now and learn how modern cycling coaching is evolving beyond traditional FTP testing.
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates' legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas. And today, Ryan, we're going to talk about critical power for laymans. I'm a little bit of a layman when it comes to critical power. And I think there are a lot of people out there that still are, despite the fact that it's used over FTP quite often these days. Yep. So I don't want to go too deep into the weeds with critical power, which I'm conscious you can. I want to try and stay high-level. But I think before we talk about
you know, critical power for laymans and, you know, how to test it and what it's about. Maybe if we can just talk about FTP first, because it's kind of a different mechanism to using FTP as your way to work out your zones and your threshold and all this kind of stuff. So how is it different to FTP?
Ryan Thomas (01:13.516) Yeah, well I I actually think of FTP just as a term. Okay. But it's typically by the layman, it's thought of as one way to test and that's a twenty minute effort. Typically with a five minute effort before. And it's your approximate sixty minute maximal peak power. That's what they were trying to achieve out of the FTP testing, the old school five minute all out effort, and then your twenty minute all out effort and you take ninety five percent of that. And it's
Cam Nicholls (01:31.265) FTP testing.
Cam Nicholls (01:39.402) Most people don't do the five minute effort though, let's face it. It's a twenty minute test.
Ryan Thomas (01:43.47) still pretty close to estimating your 60 minute maximal power. Which is essentially what they were trying to find a number that estimates your metabolic steady state. Yep. Which was pretty close. And it's a good test, but there's been yeah more science around critical power and your actual power profile and it's shown to be closer to what your actual metabolic steady state is.
Cam Nicholls (01:47.118) Yeah, okay.
Cam Nicholls (02:06.146) Okay. Right. So it's been proven in the literature then that it is more effective. Yes. Identifying that steady state.
Ryan Thomas (02:13.346) Yeah, it's more closely related to your actual L T two. So where your lactate curve, so your lactate threshold two. Yep. We have two lactate thresholds. The first inflection point if you're doing a lactate test is the L T one or your top of your typical zone two. And then your second lactate point is your threshold or your functional threshold power, your critical power, or whatever however you want to determine it. Okay. Or describe it. But critical power is
found to be closer to what your actual lactate threshold is as opposed to your approximate sixty minute maximum peak power.
Cam Nicholls (02:45.646) Okay, interesting. And I feel in addition to it being more scientifically valid, it's actually maybe less daunting for people to do in terms of the testing protocol, external to the ramp test, which you can do if you're testing FTP, because that's just like a ramp to failure. It's pretty easy to get through, even though it can be inaccurate if people are actually doing which I mean most people aren't doing it as well. Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (02:55.35) One hundred percent.
Ryan Thomas (03:02.189) Yes.
Ryan Thomas (03:09.152) Yes.
Cam Nicholls (03:14.464) You know, not testing. So that's another rabbit hole for another day. But s with critical power, you know, before we talk about how you were using it, like how are we testing first and foremost?
Ryan Thomas (03:25.282) Yeah, so whenever I'm talking to a member and I say, we're gonna do testing, you can see their faces just go, no, I'm gonna have to do a long, hard effort. Yeah. And then I say, we're using critical power testing and we're using a three and a twelve minute effort. They're like, is that all? So like people respond really well to that and they find it much more easy to achieve by doing a shorter effort than a twenty minute or however long you want to do. But the
Science suggests you need anywhere from two to four perimeters. So two to four durations that you choose, and typically between two to twenty minutes is what you would choose in your range. The initial examples were three and twelve. And three and twelve would pretty much get you pretty close to if you were to do four tests. So we recommend you do a three minute, a twelve minute, and if you have time and the motivation to do a five minute. Okay.
The five minute is optional and the reason I call it optional is that usually you get within two to four watts without the five minute by just using the three and the twelve. Okay. And we do those on separate days. So we want those to be your maximal effort, not on fatigue legs, not going in after a f effort. We we want these to be maximal, fresh, ready to go, your best power that you can produce on the day.
Cam Nicholls (04:43.158) Okay. And separate days for the three minute and the twelve minute?
Ryan Thomas (04:46.392) Separate days. Yes. Okay.
Cam Nicholls (04:48.632) So if someone was like listening and going, okay, maybe I should trial this, how would they like what would a week look like to do the three minute and the 12 minute test? Would you do them back to back days? Would you spread it out over the week? obviously you want to be fresh that week as well. So don't, you know, come off the back of a a huge volume week where you've done 20 hours and five bunch rides or whatever it might be. So you go into the week fresh, what would it look like to do the three minute test and the the 12 minute test?
Ryan Thomas (05:09.272) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (05:15.33) Yeah, usually I would give someone a day off. Yeah, easy week before the day off, let's say starting on a Monday is a simple way to think about it. Start on a Monday with your day off. On Tuesday, do some sort of activations to get your body ready after having an easy week so that you're primed for that three minute effort. Yep. Following day, Wednesday, for example, you would do your three minute. and the key here is you need to do some activations before. You don't just go do twenty minutes at zone two and then go into this three minute effort because you'll get a sh big shock. Yes.
after an easy week. So you do a couple activation efforts, some thirty second efforts, a ramp to threshold, something like that to open the legs. Recover for five, ten minutes and then go for your three minute. Yep. You can do the twelve minute the next day. So on the Thursday, because a three minute effort on its own isn't super exhausting. So you recover pretty quick from one s one individual three minute effort. Okay. Particularly twenty four hours later. So I usually do a back to back days. Okay. But if you schedule a lines and a day in between's fine. Okay.
Yeah, that's it. Once you've done those two efforts, we can we can get you critical power. There's so many different calculators out there. we can I'll tr I'll leave a I'll put a spread a link to a spreadsheet below that you can use. Okay. The key is there's some calculators out there that this is where it becomes even easier for the layman is if you've got a segment or a Striva segment that's two and a half minutes or it's three minutes fifteen or it's your longer ones
Cam Nicholls (06:38.638) Doesn't have to be three minutes.
Ryan Thomas (06:40.086) No, it doesn't have to be. And you can change the duration in these calculators to the seconds. So this the calculators are usually based around the seconds of effort. Yep. So you can adjust based on it doesn't have to be bang on three minutes. Okay. So that's also a benefit of doing this type of testing.
Cam Nicholls (06:55.384) So if someone's done the the three roughly three minute test and roughly twelve minute test, could be eleven minutes, thirteen minutes, as you said, depends on the hill, depends what's practical for somebody. Yeah. And they punch it into the calculator, what are they going to be presented with?
Ryan Thomas (07:08.61) You'll get your critical power number or your threshold. So you need a change in mindset is that critical power number is your threshold. And that's the setting that you use in training peaks for your threshold number.
Cam Nicholls (07:20.022) Okay, so we're now getting if we've had an old FTP or an estimated FTP, goodbye. Goodbye. Okay. In the big Okay, replace that thinking, and now we have a critical power number. Okay.
Ryan Thomas (07:25.838) Replace that thinking.
We have a critical power number. Okay. Yes. And we use that as your leverage for your zones. So that number will leverage your zones for the rest of your zones. The other other number that you'll get is a number that's W with a little asterisk and it's a watt prime or W W prime. Right. And essentially it's measured in joules. So joules is energy. and it's energy that you can expend above critical power. Okay. So if you think about your power curve.
Anything above critical power within that curve, in that exponential curve, all that area in the middle is how it's calculated and that's energy that you can expend. Okay. Every time you go above, let's say critical power's three hundred watts in an event or a bunch ride, you go above three hundred watts, those joules gets taken away from how much you can expend. And theoretically, once you s expend all of those joules or you're above critical power for a certain amount of time, you're empty and that's you're a failure. And it it's really accurate.
Cam Nicholls (08:22.99) Okay.
Ryan Thomas (08:25.122) So if you were go to go and do an FF to 320 watts and your critical power is 300, we could tell you pretty close to the second when you're going to fail at 320 watts. So it's really accurate in that sense. There's not many practical applications for that unless you're a professional athlete or you're doing really short time trials, but it's a good way to measure how much energy change when you're doing testing over a period of time. Now it does that.
energy above critical power change. Do you get more? Have you done training that gives you less energy above but increases your critical power? So there's a whole bunch of play, interplay that goes on with these numbers that gives you a lot more data than just doing a straight 20 blood effort. It gives you one number. This
Cam Nicholls (09:09.09) Podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. If you're a recreational or amateur road cyclist and you're stuck on a frustrating performance plateau, feeling like you need some guidance, but you're not quite ready to dive straight into one-to-one coaching. At the RCA, we've created something called the 12 week custom plan, which we believe would be your perfect next step. It starts off with an upfront deep dive call with your coach who will understand your goals, your riding preferences, what your not negotiable rides are.
And where you want to go, then they'll create a fully tailored 12-week custom plan that is supported over the 12-week period. We believe it's the perfect intermediate step, giving you a taste of working with a coach and experiencing a customized plan without committing to full coaching. Our writers are seeing real results too, and you can go to our Google reviews to see this. Marvin recently shaved over 30 minutes off his Grafton to Inverel time from doing the 12-week custom plan.
Adam gained 20 watts on his FTP in 12 weeks and 40 watts on his five minute power. And we have riders completing rides that they've failed in previous attempts like Peaks, Challenge, all from doing this 12-week custom plan. So if you're ready to break through, head to the roadcyclingacademy.com. In the menu system, you'll see our 12-week custom plan and take the first step towards that next level performance. Now let's get back to the podcast. So
How does it correlate then? I'm going to give you a use case. All right. So recently I had a call with a recreational writer who, like most, actually hasn't done any official testing. Yep. So he had a rough FTP number. but he was doing some pretty good training. So I would say maybe his rough was actually, you know, pretty good in comparison to, you know, some others that I've heard about. And he said to me, Cam, I I really struggle with sub threshold efforts.
So, you know, that's maybe ninety percent of FTP in his world or ninety-five percent of FTP. He was doing six to eight minute intervals. Yep. And I was thinking, hmm, you shouldn't really be struggling, you know, if you're conditioned. But then he said, which suggests that he does have some good conditioning, but I find three minute efforts at VO2 max are quite easy. Yeah. And I'm like, so here's a rider where perhaps he isn't that strong at threshold, but he's actually really strong at VO two. So
Cam Nicholls (11:30.85) How does critical power support a rider like that?
Ryan Thomas (11:34.476) Yeah, it's a really good use case because the essentially critical power is modeling your power curve. So if you see on the new training peaks, if you're in the analyze function or the there's extra graphs in the analyze 360 now that will predict your power curve. Okay. So if you've done a couple of hard efforts anywhere across your power curve, it'll make that curve exponential and it'll flatten out at some point. So what the power curve what the critical power is trying to do is
Cam Nicholls (12:00.334) And just hold that thought. I'm gonna interrupt, just for those who have never seen or heard of a power curve before. Yeah. We kind of look at like top end. What can you do for like one second, five second, ten second, thirty second, one minute, three minute, five minute.
Ryan Thomas (12:14.2) Yep, three, five, six, ten. Ten.
Cam Nicholls (12:16.61) And and it just kind of it extrapolates out.
Ryan Thomas (12:19.128) Yeah, and the benefit of training P it looks at every second of that curve. So two minutes and five seconds is on there. So you'll peak for that duration.
Cam Nicholls (12:26.958) So if you're like a really conditioned rider who's racing and really focused, you're probably gonna have all these numbers. But if you're a recreational and amateur that's never really looked at this before, you're probably gonna have no idea. So the critical power is kind of by doing that three or two minute whatever test and the the twelve minute test, it's it's kind of plotting that out for somebody.
Ryan Thomas (12:36.906) Exactly. Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (12:45.496) Exactly. Yep. It's estimating your power curve. And what what the benefit of that is if we do a three minute test and your three minute is relatively to someone who's not very strong in that anaerobic PO2 area, if it's much higher than another person, then it'll adjust the curve down the bottom end. So we're assuming that you're not very strong aerobically and anaerobically you're really strong. Whereas if you're 12 minute relatively to your three minute, there's fifty watts difference instead of a hundred watts, for example. Yes.
then we're assuming that you're aerobically quite strong. So it's going to adjust your critical power based on that. And it gives us those markers. So if you're doing a three minute VO2 effort, for example, we know that your best three minute ever is 400 watts. So if we're getting, if you're doing efforts and you're like you're they're set at 300 watts, then there's nowhere near what you're capable of. So it gives us a marker to base your efforts on as well. So we know what that limit is. So we can go pretty close to that limit.
In terms of prescribing intervals and j three minute duration, for example, pretty close to that limit and repeat it one after the other. And that's where the big benefit comes from this type of stuff is that we're getting multiple maximal peak powers that we know you're capable of. And we want to push right up to that ceiling, repeat it over and over and over for weeks, and that's that's where we go. Whereas you don't do these tests, you don't do a three minute or a five minute or a 12 minute.
Cam Nicholls (13:50.253) Yes.
Ryan Thomas (14:09.176) We only know what your peak twenty minute power is. What we don't have no idea what's happening with the top end of your curve if you've never done a maximal effort there. Yes. We might have done a couple efforts like ninety, ninety five percent of max, but it may be thirty watts off, so how do we know?
Cam Nicholls (14:22.424) Yeah. It's interesting. I was editing a a client testimonial for the RCA today. We'll drop a link below, Andrew, if you're out there listening. And he was actually saying, you know, one of the things that he really enjoyed about the process of of working with the RCA was identifying what type of writer he was, which I assume is part of the critical power testing protocol. And, you know, he's not a very strong FTP writer, but he's a really good A grade club level crit writer that
wins. And his FTP, if you heard it, it particularly when you consider his weight, watts per kilo, is actually not that great. Yeah. Like on
Wed, 27 May 2026 - 18min - 87 - Cycling & Lower Back Pain: The Hidden Cause Most Riders Miss
Summary
Cycling causing lower back pain? Dealing with sciatica, disc injuries, or recurring pain after long rides? In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with expert bike fitter and sports physiotherapist Neil Stanbury to unpack one of the most frustrating issues cyclists face: lower back disc problems.
Neil explains the difference between common muscular lower back pain and more serious disc-related issues, why cyclists can develop chronic back pain from asymmetry on the bike, and how poor biomechanics may contribute to disc irritation and sciatica symptoms.
In this episode we cover:
✔️ The difference between muscular back pain and disc injuries ✔️ What disc herniations and annular tears actually are ✔️ How poor bike position and hip asymmetry can overload the spine ✔️ Why cyclists may experience sciatica, hamstring tightness, or numbness ✔️ Bike fit changes that may reduce lower back stress ✔️ Recovery strategies including swimming, strength training, ice baths, sauna and inflammation management ✔️ Whether core strength training can help prevent future issues
If you're a recreational or amateur cyclist struggling with recurring back pain, stiffness after rides, or nerve symptoms down the leg, this episode may help you understand the causes and potential solutions.
Subscribe for more cycling training advice, bike fit insights, injury prevention tips and performance content for recreational road cyclists.
#Cycling #LowerBackPain #BikeFit #Sciatica #CyclingInjuries #RoadCycling #CyclingPerformance #BackPain #DiscInjury #CyclingTips
Tue, 19 May 2026 - 11min - 86 - Bike Fitter's Top 3 Race Bikes (geometry & adjustability)
*]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-WEB:a74dc3cc-662f-4a79-96ce-7afcca30d1f3-0" data-turn-id-container= "request-WEB:a74dc3cc-662f-4a79-96ce-7afcca30d1f3-0" data-testid= "conversation-turn-2" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-turn= "assistant"> Podcast Summary
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with expert bike fitter Neill Stanbury to break down their top three modern race bikes — but from a bike fitting and geometry perspective rather than the usual marketing hype around stiffness and aerodynamics.
Neill explains why geometry, sizing range, and adjustability matter far more for recreational and amateur cyclists than marginal aerodynamic gains. The conversation dives into why some bikes suit a wider variety of riders, how aggressive race geometries can limit comfort and performance, and why finding the right fit can completely transform your riding experience.
The episode highlights three standout bikes:
The Pinarello Dogma for its exceptional sizing range and geometry options. The Cannondale SuperSix EVO for balancing race-bike performance with a less aggressive fit. The Polygon Helios for riders needing an ultra-aggressive, long-and-low racing position.The discussion finishes with a broader conversation about how the "best" bike is often the one that actually fits your body correctly — not necessarily the most expensive or aerodynamic option.
Key Points 1. Bike Geometry Matters More Than Marginal Aero GainsNeill argues that for most recreational cyclists, bike fit and geometry are far more important than tiny aerodynamic or stiffness differences between modern superbikes.
2. Modern Race Bikes Are All Extremely GoodAccording to Neill, there are very few genuinely "bad" bikes at the top end of the market anymore. Most performance differences come down to rider fit and comfort rather than frame technology alone.
3. Pinarello Dogma Excels in Sizing OptionsThe Dogma stood out because of its massive sizing range, with 11 frame sizes that allow extremely precise fitting for riders of vastly different body proportions.
4. More Sizes = Better Fit, But Higher CostNeill explains that producing more frame molds dramatically increases manufacturing costs, which partly explains premium bike pricing.
5. Cannondale SuperSix EVO Balanced Comfort and PerformanceThe previous-generation SuperSix EVO was praised for having a taller front end and less aggressive geometry, making it ideal for middle-aged riders wanting race-bike performance without extreme flexibility demands.
6. Modern Bikes Are Becoming More Aggressive AgainNeill notes that the latest SuperSix geometry has become more aggressive, which may reduce its suitability for everyday amateur riders.
7. Polygon Helios Is Built for Aggressive RacersThe Polygon Helios was highlighted for its extremely long-and-low geometry, making it ideal for younger, flexible, performance-focused racers.
8. The "Best Bike" Depends on Your BodyThe episode reinforces that choosing a bike based on your body proportions, flexibility, and riding goals is far more important than chasing pro-level marketing claims.
9. Comfort Can Improve PerformanceCam shares how finally finding the right geometry significantly improved his comfort and long-duration power output after years of riding unsuitable setups.
10. Bike Fit Education MattersThe episode concludes by promoting RCA's Bike Fit Fundamentals program, designed to help cyclists better understand what bike geometries suit them best.
Bike Fit Fundamtenals: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/bike-fit-fundamentals/ Transcript:Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA podcast designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. So please excuse any visual references. Today I'm joined by expert bike fitter, Neil Stanbury. Neil's going to give us his top three favourite race bikes, but we're not talking about how stiff it is and how fast it goes. We're talking about...
Neill Stanbury (00:45.581) Geometry and adjustability. Or d-d-d-d-d So these are the things that really matter to me. Because when you're talking about the level that you and I would be potentially racing at, or most people watching this podcast, the tiny 1%, you know, two watts here at 50 kilometers an hour, that kind of stuff, the aerodynamics of the Frank... It just doesn't matter.
Cam Nicholls (00:46.926) adjustability.
Cam Nicholls (01:03.786) important very very important
Neill Stanbury (01:07.924) Okay, all of these bikes, the top end of the road bike of the road bike world is all so good now that it's actually getting hard to sort of delineate much between them in terms of like the speed and the stiffness and the ride quality and all this sort of stuff. They're so good. There's so many that we have to choose from. There's very few real dog bikes out there anymore, I find. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (01:28.622) I'll also ask the boys at the Nero show, that's what they're doing every week. There's lots of dog bikes apparently.
Neill Stanbury (01:33.07) Yeah, well, I mean, they're looking at it. They're looking at the aesthetics of it and that sort of stuff. Honestly, I've had my butt kicked by 65 year old guys on steel framed down tube shifted bikes with the levers on the down tube. I've kicked some guys with a 15, $20,000 Pinarello. The legs are what does, you know, what makes the bike go around. So this is the stuff that they're more interest me, which is the geometry. Let's go with number one. The number one that I love the most dealing with is the Pinarello Dogma.
Cam Nicholls (02:00.206) Geez, if you've got a spare 30 grand floating around.
Neill Stanbury (02:02.913) That's the problem.
Cam Nicholls (02:04.92) You went bad with Pinarello these days Bill, yeah what's going on here? I've never heard you mention this bike and now all of a sudden...
Neill Stanbury (02:10.568) I've been riding a dogma for about a week now. Yeah, Now why do I love the dogma? Yes, it is expensive. We're not talking about the cost. It is a beautiful race bike from all reports. Yeah, cost aside. This is the stuff that I love about it. So they apparently ride really well. They're very stiff. They handle well. They've got all those good attributes.
Cam Nicholls (02:14.764) Yeah, you got three in your head.
Cam Nicholls (02:24.216) we should have prefaced his cost to size.
Neill Stanbury (02:34.11) like a lot of these bikes that we'll talk about. But what is best about them is the sizing range. They are amazing. So for example, just yesterday by a stroke of good fortune, I had a lovely lady from Northern New South Wales, Karen, if you're watching this, I hope you're enjoying these videos. Karen was very short, you know, not to beat around the bush. She was pretty small. She had been advised to buy a Dogma in the or the 415 size, the smaller size that they have, which was a great decision because it
matched her perfectly. The smaller size Dogma F has a reach dimension of 350mm. Which is like, it's the smallest bike in the world. there's very, it's, if someone out there knows a road bike with 700c wheels that has a shorter reach than 350 whatever, I think it's 351 or 352mm, please let me know. But they are tiny. This bike suited her beautifully. It had an 80mm stem on it. It was perfect.
She had a seat height of about 620 millimetres, so short legs, short arms. These bikes go tiny. They also go really big. And in between those, there are 11 sizes. Eleven! It's fantastic. A lot of modern bike brands, you'll get five sizes, right? There'll be an extra small, a small, a medium, a large, and an extra large. And the reason for that primarily is that you don't have to have as many frame moulds. Keeps the cost down. And there's often big jumps between the sizes or the small one is just
not that small, you know, just doesn't go that small. And so you'll have this really annoying large jumps between them and you can't quite get the geometry perfect for the person and so forth. But with Pinarello, it's fantastic. You'll often see particularly, I think there's there's five one five, a five three zero and a five four zero. And the reach change between these three sizes is about five millimeters or six millimeters, something really, really small. And it's mainly the stack that changes.
So they change because there's 11 sizes of them. They change in really tight increments. So you can spec them perfectly to suit the person. So, you know, if it turns out that the 530 is just a little bit low in the front end, you can jump to the 540 and the reach is only three mil longer. But the front end is 12 mil higher. They're fantastic. They just have so many sizes, so much adjustability.
Cam Nicholls (04:49.71) Maybe this explains their costs now because this would cost them a lot to produce so many sizes. now maybe they can justify that price point a little bit.
Neill Stanbury (04:57.966) Well, it's a very carefully thought out geometry chart. It's the most wide ranging geometry chart of any bike pretty much that I know of in the road bike scene. Really, really good because of the number of different frames that you can choose from. They're just fantastic. They are not cheap. And part of the reason is Pinarello name tax, you know, and part of the reason is because for each one of those sizes, you need four, five, 10 frame molds for the production process. And frame molds are not
So when you've got 11 sizes compared to five, it does blow out the start of the production run initiation costs for each series of dogmas that they bring out. They've also, should talk about in a different video, we'll talk about the Pinarello X, but these, these are talking about race bikes here. Pinarello X is their endurance bike. The downside of this thing, obviously it's very expensive. The top tier ones come with a one piece cockpit.
but there are a lot of different one-piece cockpits that they offer. So you can, you know, if you've got the money and you can afford to spec it right, fantastic race bike due to the immense number of geometry iterations that you can get out of them. Number two, the Cannondale Super 6 from last year. Now this video is going to come out in 2026. There has just been a new one released. I was riding with a couple of the boys from EF earlier this year on the new bike and they loved it because it was more aggressive than the old one. Oh, okay.
Cam Nicholls (06:03.927) Number two, please.
Neill Stanbury (06:20.27) means it's not so good for me. So the old Super 6, the one from 2023, I think it ran through to 2025, had about in the 54 size, it had about a 10 or 12 millimeter higher stack than almost any other race bike out there. It was, I would describe it as the least aggressive top end race bike on the market. It was not, certainly not an endurance geometry, but it was kind of in between. It wasn't hyper aggressive.
And I loved that bike because there are so many people out there that have got enough money to spend on a good bike. They want it to be stiff. They want it to be aero. They want it to feel like a race bike, but they're not that flexible. They're not a pro. They don't have amazing hip mobility. They're a middle-aged bloke, know, that is here. So these bikes, we would spec them all the time because they had that more upright front end and that increased stack across the whole range of about 10 millimetres.
in the medium sort of sizes, primarily, it was really helpful for me from a positioning standpoint, because it opened the bike up to a much wider variety of customers. This year's model, the 2026 one, they've gone down in the front to make it basically now just a conventional race bike geometry. There's nothing unusual about it. It will therefore suit less people generally. Okay. And there was no complaints about that bike in terms of the aerodynamics, the climbing ability was a beautiful way all around. It was very stiff.
It's just everyone who had a Super 6, particularly the Lab 71 and the High Mod models, everyone who had one quite liked it, from my perspective. So no complaints about the bike generally and fantastic geometry that's not hyper aggressive.
Cam Nicholls (07:59.478) No longer a Kraken file. Yeah. Well they used to call it back in the early days.
Neill Stanbury (08:02.178) Colin? I have probably can't see this. See, I've heard of stories of a couple of them cracking around the seat post, but I don't know how prevalent that is.
Cam Nicholls (08:10.444) Yeah, I think it's the thing of the past. Yeah. And number three.
Neill Stanbury (08:13.646) Number three, so this is the polar opposite. When you're a bike fitter, you're often trying to squeeze people onto bikes that don't really suit them. And we also have, as we just described with the Cannondale, we have that same problem in reverse fairly regularly, where you've got a person with short legs, lowish seat height, really long torso, who's quite flexible and they need ridiculous geometry, like really, really low and long bikes. And shout out here to Polygon. Now, I'm not just saying this because these guys sponsor our race team.
But the new Helios, the A series that they've just brought out, it rides beautifully, very, very lovely feeling bike, good compliance, good stiffness, all of that sort of stuff. But man, the geometry is nuts.
Cam Nicholls (08:55.404) It's probably out of speaking to all the boys, it's that and they say how stiff it is. Yeah. But the geometries think they love the most because they can get really aggressive for their racing.
Neill Stanbury (09:04.552) So these are young guys, flexible, lean, and part of the reason why they're so, they're at the top of the sport is because they're very aerodynamic. It's one of the things that predisposes you towards being a high-performance cyclist. And so they need geometries that are really long and low. And man, this thing is crazy. Like when I, you know, the one that I rode for a couple of weeks or a month. You had a big chimney on it. I had the chimney to end all chimneys, mate. was, yeah.
Cam Nicholls (09:30.328) make a video about it which will be we can put up there you talking about it specifically
Neill Stanbury (09:33.678) So I had to size down to the small, would normally be a medium. The small has an incredibly low stack height, I think it's like 520 something. And the reach on the medium, the one that I would normally have ridden was 400 millimetres, which is like 15 millimetres longer than most 54 centimetre medium race bikes. So really, really long, really, really low. Fantastic for these guys. Not so great for mere models, but when you're trying to squeeze people, unusually shaped people.
onto bikes, having something like this, you can refer them to for purchasing is great because there are very few bikes that are this long and low on the market. Very, very, very few. And as a bonus, it's a really good bike and it's incredibly good value. you can get a... Yeah, so you can get a Dura Ace version for like six and a half grand or something. It's insane. Yeah, they're just unbelievable good value.
Cam Nicholls (10:20.279) to how we started the video.
Neill Stanbury (10:29.666) So I highly rate that bike. It looks good, rides well, and it's hyper aggressive. And if that's what you need from the geometry, it's a really good pick. So shout out to Polygon for making that thing. Yeah. It's terrible for me, but for you guys out there that are long and low, great bike.
Cam Nicholls (10:37.987) Yeah, okay.
Cam Nicholls (10:45.996) Yeah. that's interesting. I'm looking forward to the next one, which will be endurance bikes. So that we're doing endurance bikes next. Hopefully my BMC road machine gets a mention. No? Okay, damn. Okay. That's a shame. Well, look, if you're out there listening and you want to dig a little bit deeper into what geometry might be best suited for you. Cause I know from my experiences in riding for such a long period of time, like I found the road machine sort of 20 years after I took up the sport almost. I'm like, this, finally found a geometry that works for me.
Neill Stanbury (10:55.416) Probably not.
Cam Nicholls (11:13.76) I can ride longer. feel more comfortable. My power output's great, you know, over long durations. So it's great. It's great for me. So, you've, put together or we've put together a program called Bike Fit Fundamentals where people can kind of identify what sort of geometry is probably going to best suit.
Neill Stanbury (11:19.49) See you that
Neill Stanbury (11:28.45) their needs. will, yes. This one of the modules has a fair bit of information about that type of thing. And yeah, hopefully that'll be of assistance to you if you're trying to navigate your way through this at home.
Cam Nicholls (11:37.262) More link below. Thanks everyone. Catch you in the next podcast and YouTube video. Cheers.
Wed, 13 May 2026 - 11min - 85 - Why Amateur Cyclists Plateau (What I Learned From 80 Calls)
Summary:
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, expert bike fitter Neill Stanbury interviews Cam Nicholls about the biggest training mistakes recreational and amateur cyclists make when trying to improve FTP, endurance, and overall cycling performance.
After completing more than 80 one-on-one coaching calls with plateaued cyclists, Cam reveals the three major problems repeatedly holding riders back:
Training to inaccurate FTP and power zones Skipping key aerobic development work like tempo and sweet spot training Failing to implement proper recovery and adaptation weeksThe discussion dives into Zone 2 training, VO2 max work, sweet spot intervals, fatigue management, cycling recovery, aerobic base development, and how recreational cyclists can train smarter instead of simply training harder.
Whether you're struggling to increase your FTP, feeling stuck in a cycling plateau, or wondering why your structured training isn't delivering results, this episode provides practical insights to help you improve your cycling fitness and performance long term.
Topics covered:
FTP testing and training zones Zone 2 vs tempo vs sweet spot training VO2 max workouts for cyclists Cycling fatigue and recovery Adaptation weeks explained How to break through a cycling plateau Structured training for amateur cyclists Common cycling training mistakes The QUIZ: https://roadcyclingacademy.scoreapp.com/ Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the RCA Podcast 00:27 Interview Dynamics: Host and Expert Bike Fitter 01:58 Identifying Performance Plateaus in Cycling 02:23 Training to the Wrong Numbers 07:30 The Importance of Aerobic Work 09:52 Strategic Easier Weeks for Recovery Transcript:Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA podcast designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. Today I'm joined by expert bike fitter, Neil Stanbury. And for the first time in a, I think about five years of content, Neil, you're actually going to interview me. It'll be funny if this video gets like five views.
Neill Stanbury (00:38.702) The rolls are reversed here.
really on something. You mentioned to me off camera, this is a kind of an interesting one, I didn't know you'd been doing this, but you have with your RCA members, you have a service where they found that their performance is stagnated or plateaued. They can actually call you direct and it's a decent length conversation that you often have with them. I'll give it out to everyone.
Cam Nicholls (00:58.862) Well, I'm not giving out my number to everyone now. People wouldn't necessarily call me and it's not for RCA members. It's for people that they've definitely plateaued from an FTP perspective. It's a quiz that we've got on our website and I'm not here to promote the quiz. I'm here to talk about what I've learned. But if people want to do the quiz, it's a quiz where people fill out, I think 15 questions, takes three minutes. And then they get a report on where the low hanging fruit opportunities are for them to improve their cycling fitness or to FTP.
Neill Stanbury (01:08.376) So not just for members.
Neill Stanbury (01:26.466) And you'll have a decent one-on-one conversation with these people to sort of tease out where they might be struggling.
Cam Nicholls (01:31.49) Yeah, exactly. So those who fill out the quiz and say that consider some tailored advice or even working with a coach, we then offer a call, which is currently with me because it's like a beta offering we have. Not even on our website, this offering at the moment, because, you know, jumping straight into coaching can feel a little bit daunting for some people. So here's a one hour call and let's identify your low hanging fruit. Well, probably now, like no exaggeration, we implemented this back in the last year. So it's been about six months now.
Neill Stanbury (01:50.742) You've done quite a few of these.
Cam Nicholls (01:58.99) I've probably somewhere between 70 to 80 calls now with recreational and amateur road cyclists that have hit a plateau and they're probably training somewhere between six to 12 hours per week, depending on the week.
Neill Stanbury (02:08.364) And you've learned absolutely nothing and that's the end of the video. Exactly right. You've learned a fair bit from these people, which is what you wanted to share.
Cam Nicholls (02:11.598) No, nothing of interest aside
And I haven't shared with you what they are, so hopefully, you there might be bit of interest from your
Neill Stanbury (02:20.6) You mentioned there were three major things that you'd found?
Cam Nicholls (02:23.38) Big things that, I mean, there's lots, everyone's different, but three big things. First one is people are training to the wrong numbers. you've done this before. I thought you would have been probably a little bit more because you've, you know, we've coached you in the past. think once you've been coached and you'd become more intimate with your numbers, it's, know, even if you don't retest, you kind of have a good feeling of where you're.
Neill Stanbury (02:27.054) Alright, hit me with number one.
Neill Stanbury (02:35.704) I'm doing it right now.
Neill Stanbury (02:49.838) I'm terrible. always, you know, I had a bit of a layoff recently with bad weather and illness and stuff and didn't ride much for three weeks and I thought, I probably haven't dropped that much in three weeks. And I have, because when I tried to do some VO2 sessions to the same numbers as what I used to, there was just no hope. So I underestimate how much my numbers dropped back during those periods.
Cam Nicholls (03:11.158) Yeah, and look, you know, we wouldn't recommend you go do VO2 work, you know, after some time off, you'd want to give it a good, obviously, if you're doing a bunch ride, you're going to do it or something like that or push with a mate. But if you're riding by yourself, you'd probably want to spend a good six to eight weeks at a below threshold, reestablishing the base.
Neill Stanbury (03:26.894) Yeah, I'm too, uh, too impatient for that. I think I did two or three weeks, maybe four weeks of a bit of bass, and then started hitting the VO2s again and um, yeah, they were nowhere near what they used to be. Yes. So, training to the wrong zones, mate.
Cam Nicholls (03:29.089) Yes, almost did, Valar!
Cam Nicholls (03:41.07) Yeah. And that's ultimately what it means. So people taking an estimate off, you know, their Wahoo or their Garmin or Strava or some people use AI coaching platforms and take a number and nothing against those platforms because they're doing the best they can with the numbers that they've got. But nine times out of 10, the numbers are wrong. And then people are going and doing, I'm going to do this session on the trainer or I out on the road. You know, I watched it on YouTube and then they're actually targeting the wrong areas. Yeah. They're not actually at threshold. They're at VO2 max or they're not actually at
zone two, they're actually at tempo, which in turn, and this is probably an underlying cause of a lot of people having underdeveloped aerobic engines. If you're not doing targeted zone two work or if you've never done it before, when I say zone two, from a power context, I'm talking around 60 to 70 % of your FTP. You know, a lot of people, every rider bringing lactate into the working muscles, which disrupts the aerobic adaptation. And then they're never really doing targeted zone two stuff off the back of having the wrong numbers. Yes.
So that's the first lesson. you know, really for people out there, you know, the best way to get your numbers is just to do a test. Yeah. You know, as simple as a ramp test, you know, we were a bit more advanced at the RCA where you something called critical power. So that's typically three tests you can do with critical power, but we typically get our members to do a three minute test and a 12 minute test. So you get more of an understanding of the bigger picture. You might be really good at sustained efforts and not so good at the shorter efforts or vice versa. In fact, I had a call with somebody recently.
where they're like, why is it, and he'd done a test, he's like, why is it when I do sub threshold work and I'm doing eight to 10 minute efforts, I really struggle. I'm like getting to the end of that eight to 10 and I'm like barely being able to finish the effort. Whereas when I'm doing a three minute effort, I can perform really well. It feels easy actually with my current FTP. Well, it's like, well, most likely genetically you're stronger at VO2 and not at threshold. So having, know, if you can get more comprehensive with your testing, then your zones are going to be...
more accurate and your training is going to be more effective.
Neill Stanbury (05:38.264) I mean I can relate to that because I'm the exact opposite. So I can cruise along at upper end zone 2 for a very long time without a lot of fatigue creeping in, but I'm terrible once I creep into VO2 or neuromuscular. It's just not. You're a grime. yeah. Yeah, I'm all slow twitch mate. All slow twitch. So it's very much fighting against my genetics to try and do a lot of VO2 and neuromuscular stuff.
Cam Nicholls (06:02.286) This podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. If you're a recreational or amateur road cyclist and you're stuck on a frustrating performance plateau, feeling like you need some guidance, but you're not quite ready to dive straight into one-to-one coaching, at the RCA we've created something called the 12-week custom plan, which we believe would be your perfect next step. It starts off with an upfront deep dive call with your coach who will understand your goals, your riding preferences, what your not negotiable rides are.
and where you want to go, then they'll create a fully tailored 12-week custom plan that is supported over the 12-week period. We believe it's the perfect intermediate step, giving you a taste of working with a coach and experiencing a customized plan without committing to full coaching. Our writers are seeing real results too, and you can go to our Google reviews to see this. Marvin recently shaved over 30 minutes off his graft into Inverrell time from doing the 12-week custom plan.
Adam gained 20 watts on his FTP in 12 weeks and 40 watts on his five minute power. And we have riders completing rides that they've failed in previous attempts like Peaks Challenge, all from doing this 12 week custom plan. So if you're ready to break through, head to the roadcyclingacademy.com in the menu system, you'll see our 12 week custom plan and take the first step towards that next level performance. Now let's get back to the podcast. Yeah, cool.
Neill Stanbury (07:30.446) So what's number two?
Cam Nicholls (07:31.054) Number two is an interesting one. A lot of people are not doing that work before threshold. So if they're doing some structured stuff, you know, they've watched a few YouTube's or read a few articles, they'll typically, you know, think they're doing zone two, even though they may not be doing zone two because they're not doing it exclusively and they may have the wrong numbers, but let's just say they are doing it. They're doing zone two, then they'll go straight to threshold work or VO2 work or anaerobic work, know, 3015s or over-unders.
And they're missing out on that upper end aerobic work. So what do I mean by that? I'm talking about tempo work zone three, and I'll put a zone model up on the screen or sweet spot work, which is like high 80 % to mid 90 % of FTP. Yep. Which is in this, you're ironic in the scheme of some platforms, they tend to over index on that stuff, but the general recreational and amateur aren't doing a lot of work there. They're just going straight to the meaty stuff, which makes sense, right? Because that's where you get really fast gains. And that's where there's a lot of content about
you know, people want to increase their VO2 max, I'm going to do a VO2 max workout. But the challenge with that is, you know, assuming they're targeting the right numbers is it's very fast acting that work, but also very fatiguing. So people find, and this is why they filled out the quiz and wanted to chat, the plateau. So the idea is, and this is research-based, right? It's the pyramidal methodology where you're spending in a three zone scientific model, more time in zone two, which is that tempo sweet spot. So the key is,
And look, a lot of people say, I'm doing tempo work when I'm on my bunch ride or I go out and ride hard, you know, once a week and I'm at tempo. It's not really strategic tempo intervals where it's, you know, lactate in, because you will bring a bit of lactate in during a tempo zone for interval and then recovery and then doing another one and then recovery. And then next week, progressively making that a little bit harder. And then once you master that kind of tempo work, what do I mean by master? I'm talking about
rate of perceived exertion so that session feels easier. I can see my heart rate's not drifting as much in that tempo effort and coming down. Then you move up maybe four, six weeks later and you do some sweet spot stuff. And the beauty of that work as well is it's not overly fatiguing. So you kind of freshen up, you build a really strong aerobic foundation. And then when you do get to the VO2 or the threshold stuff, you've got a much better foundation to work from.
Neill Stanbury (09:47.874) Yes. Yeah, makes sense to me, mate. Yeah. Very nice. Cool. All what's number three? Number th-
Cam Nicholls (09:52.568) Three is, and we've made content on this a lot, is they're just not having strategic easier weeks. So we don't really call them easier weeks at the RCA because that sounds like you're not doing anything.
call them adaptation.
It's good. And it's as simple as just backing off your intensity and your volume by about 30%. So if you're doing 10 hours a week, you're doing seven hours a week. And instead of doing three intense sessions in your normal weeks, you're just doing one intense session in your easier week. And the idea is you're absorbing the stress from the previous week's adaptation. Yep. And you're freshening up for the next round. So when you do get back into a training week, you're fresh and you can tackle it and you can probably overextend because you've got some freshness.
and provided you recover properly, you get fitter from it. So that's a real easy one people can implement without getting too bogged down in the details of training. It's like, every third or fourth week, and I've got mates that do this now who are not interested in structured training, but they just, every third or fourth week, they just back it off a little bit. And they find that's had a huge increase in their performance longer term because they're giving their body rest. And yeah, they can tackle the next weeks with greater frills.
Neill Stanbury (11:04.142) Yeah, and cycling, in my experience, cycling fatigue, like the chronic fatigue that you develop from big blocks of training and that sort of stuff, it's insidious. It's not like when you go to the gym and you lift a bunch of heavy weights and your muscles are sore for a few days afterwards. That sort of perception that you're still in the recovery zone is really clear because, you know, your biceps still hurts, your quads still hurt. Cycling is different, isn't it? Where you just sort of, you you wake up and you're like, geez, you got no motivation, you're a bit tired.
You get to the end of the afternoon and you want to have a nap. It's insidious fatigue, isn't it? That kind of creeps up on you a lot of the time. It's not as clear cut as the type of fatigue that you get from strength training. it's much, I've fallen into this hole many times over the years. It's much more insidious and therefore harder to sort of know that you're doing it to yourself, you know? And so you have to really monitor those feelings. Cause I'd never really thought to monitor them until I talked to you guys years and years ago about this.
And I sort of, I'm now much more aware of it when it's happening. Like, and I think, okay, for me, it's that I either haven't eaten enough, because I have to keep the calorie intake really high. I've got a very fast metabolism, or more likely I'm just a bit cooked from those three big bunch rides I did this week, or that big VO2 effort I did two days ago. I'm much more cognizant of that fatigue now, but it is hard to sense that fatigue feeling for a lot of people, for a lot of people, it's their default state.
Cam Nicholls (12:29.806) That's exactly what I was about to say. So the amount of calls that I've had with people and some of them do transition into coaching. And I've said, think I believe you're actually in a fatigue state. No, I don't feel fatigued. I mean, it's not that defensive, but it's kind of like, can tell they're like, what's this guy saying to me? I don't like this guy anymore. Probably haven't been to that. And then when they actually do have an easier week and then they start the training and then they have another easier week and then another one.
This is what freshness feels like. This is what actually being able to overextend in a workout feels like. So as you said, it's that body awareness and a great use case to wrap up here. One of our members, Andrew, if you're out there listening, not all our members race, in fact, probably only about 10%, but he races the crits. He came to us, he, well, I had a call with him. He's doing other things as well, like a lot of cross-training stuff. And I said, Andrew, I think you're doing a bit too much. For 46 kids, you know, got a job. And he's like, no, I feel fine.
The very first, he started working with Ryan Thomas, our head coach. The very first thing Ryan did with him is like, we're going to back it off a lot this week. We're going to have more than 70%. We're going to go like 40%. He said, I can still go race the crit on Sunday. Hadn't placed in his crit for like six months. What happened? Got a podium, third. Just fresh, just from recovery. And now he's like fully in tune with his body and dialed in and appreciates it. So as you said, his body awareness, it's often not until you come out of that state.
Neill Stanbury (13:42.594) This fresh.
Cam Nicholls (13:53.288) until you recognise it. So Neil, they are the three things.
Neill Stanbury (13:56.174) Very interesting mate that and a lot of it makes sense to me and I can see myself in some of those comments You have to change some of the ways that I'm doing things as well
Cam Nicholls (14:03.34) Yep. So if somebody does want to do the quiz and wants to take a call, we'll put a link below and we'll catch everyone in the next podcast and YouTube video. Cheers.
Wed, 06 May 2026 - 14min - 84 - 10% Power Gains with THIS Simple Bike Fit Adjustment
Summary In this episode, expert bike fitter Neill Stanbury explains the importance of Q factor (aka stance width) in cycling and bike fitting. Notably, how it affects power transfer, injury prevention, and how to optimize it for individual riders. Learn practical tips on measuring and adjusting Q factor for better cycling performance and comfort. Key topics
What is Q factor and why it matters Symptoms of incorrect Q factor How Q factor affects power transfer and injury risk Practical methods to measure and adjust Q factor Impact of Q factor on cycling performance and training Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Q Factor and Cycling Performance 02:44 Understanding Q Factor: Definition and Importance 08:35 Identifying Q Factor Issues and Symptoms 14:24 Adjusting Q Factor: Solutions and Recommendations Bike Fit Fundamentals: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/bike-fit-fundamentals/ Transcript:Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA podcast designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
So welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. So please excuse any visual references, which is going to be hard with the man beside me, Neil. You use your hands. Yeah, it could be an interesting one, but today we're going to talk about Q factor. Notably, you know, I'm interested in how you can produce more power through the pedal stroke with your Q factor. But Neil, before we talk about the intricacies of Q factor and bike fitting and more power, what is Q factor?
Neill Stanbury (00:35.426) There's going to be a few of those. You liked it?
Neill Stanbury (00:56.078) Yeah, so Q-Fact is, the easiest way to think about it is how far apart your feet are. Okay. It's a terrible term really. I think it's a bastardization of a medical term in the orthopedic literature called Q-Angle, which sort of refers to the angle of a person's knee, whether it sort of kicks in or kicks out. it's been adopted by the bike fitting world from that, but really we should describe it as stance width. Yes. The distance apart that your feet are. And on a road bike, you're looking at about 25 centimeters.
And on a mountain bike somewhere closer to 27 or 29 on some of the big dogs with huge bottom brackets, massive tire clearance.
Cam Nicholls (01:28.684) I found super interesting and I might be cutting into your storyline here, but you mentioned this in a video we did four years ago. Jeez. Q-Factor long time. Been a while. That all bikes, all road bikes have the same Q-Factor no matter the size. It's just really odd.
Neill Stanbury (01:35.886) Here we
Neill Stanbury (01:43.842) Yeah, it's kind of strange, isn't it? Yeah, because it would be logical that the Q factor or the stance width of a bike would need to scale up or down depending, generally speaking, depending upon the size of the bike. That, mean, there's, plenty of exceptions to that rule. There's, short, wide-waisted people, broad-waisted people who need a wider Q factor on a tiny bike. And there's also really tall, beanpole, six foot four people who've got a really narrow waist and amazing hip mobility who need really narrow Q factors. But as a general rule of.
you know, of extrapolation of thumb, you would think that bigger bikes would have a wider key factor, but they don't. There's a whole bunch of industry reasons behind that. Like it would be prohibitively expensive and difficult for a lot of the groupset manufacturers to make different bottom bracket, you know, different width crank systems and that sort of thing. So it just doesn't happen. And we're just kind of left to our own devices to deal with this.
Cam Nicholls (02:33.198) So if you are a recreational amateur road cyclist and you are lift your own devices, how do you get to the bottom of whether you've got the right Q factor or the wrong Q factor?
Neill Stanbury (02:44.334) Yeah, tough call. So let's talk about first of all, the symptoms that you might get if it's wrong. I'm going to tell you that probably 98 % of the time that your Q factor is grossly wrong, it's that it's too narrow, right? So there's like a 2 % chance that your Q factor is too wide and there's about a 98 % chance that it's too narrow if it's wrong, right? So let's say the symptoms that you would get if it was too narrow. Generally what will happen in cycling biomechanics, we really like to see your knees descending more or less vertically over the center of the pedal spindle.
And if they're descending straight down the center of the pedal spindle or slightly inside the line of the pedal spindle, you'll very rarely have a problem, right? That's kind of kinematically biomechanically kind of optimal in a lot of cases. Sorry, what did you just say? Let's say you've got a circle that your foot is prescribing in the air. We want your knee moving straight up and down over that pedal center. Okay. We don't want your knee.
Cam Nicholls (03:35.052) layman Neil you gotta break it down simply for me
Neill Stanbury (03:37.166) I've always known you're a layman. I've known you for a long time. You'd never graduated beyond layman, but here we are. So we want your knee descending vertically over the center of the pedal spittle, ideally. Or slightly inside the line, but we do not want it chopping in from outside the line of the pedal. And we've got plenty of stock footage of your left knee doing that. It's the same B-roll every time. So if your knee is descending across
Cam Nicholls (03:56.874) I've been in the audience this second time.
Neill Stanbury (04:03.374) the line of the pedal spindle, you're much more likely to get biomechanical issues. And what are those issues going to be? Look, if it's on one leg, there'll be things like lateral knee pain, patella type knee pain, lateral foot pain from as the knee descends across the line of the pedal, you're going to load the outside edge of the foot, that type of thing. ITB insertion syndrome issues. If it's bilateral, your biggest, most frequent symptom is going to be lower back pain.
So as the patella or the knee tries to move across the line of the pedal, your glutes will work over time, trying to stabilize this. Or in some people they will just switch off and your pelvis will rock excessively. And both of those will cause lower back pain for slightly different reasons. The first one is because of the excess muscle contractile effort and your glutes just makes them hurt. And the second one is just the excessive movement of your pelvis means that you're going to get instability and therefore pain as the pelvis rocks back and forth.
Cam Nicholls (04:56.504) Good Neil, I only care about powertrain.
Neill Stanbury (04:58.606) Power transfer. transfer. The big one. Big what? So yes, it is very inefficient. If the Q factor is grossly wrong, you can lose a lot. Most of the time the loss is in those efforts beyond about five or six minutes. So once you get beyond a VO2 effort, the efficiency becomes a really big limiting factor and the lack of glute engagement or lack of proper glute engagement.
Cam Nicholls (05:01.336) care if I get injured as long as I'm produced in-
Neill Stanbury (05:21.996) And the fact that your medial quad can't work properly. you're losing out in multiple different kind of kinematic areas on optimal power transfer. can say. And so I've seen plenty of people over the years where we've changed, we've fixed their Q factor as a major issue that we're solving in their position. And they've picked up like five to 10 % on a 20 minute effort in the weeks following the fit. So Q factor can be- Weeks? Close to instantaneous. Wow.
Cam Nicholls (05:45.602) So instantaneous space.
Neill Stanbury (05:48.846) Yeah, so I think I told this story in another video probably probably a long time ago But I have had elite level riders pick up 10 % like National Road Series type guys I had a bloke go from about a 440 watt 20 minute effort He was a big guy to a 480 watt 20 minute effort a long time ago. This was probably 10 years ago Purely with the addition of some 15 millimeter longer spindle pedals, which I'm going to show you guys in a minute. Yep, right
Cam Nicholls (06:14.446) Okay, so he had a 30 millimeter increase all up in his Q factor. Yeah. And that was the outcome essentially.
Neill Stanbury (06:21.012) Yeah, so he had chronic bilateral knee pain that he could never get rid of on the bike and it basically just instantly deleted his knee pain and partially you could maybe say that his power went up because he wasn't in pain potentially he could train harder, but it was real quick It was like within like a month or something his power jumped by like 40 watts across the 20 minute It was huge and so the nervous system has a lot of Safety like fail-safes in it that if you're in pain and you're damaging your limbs when you're pedaling It's gonna curtail your output to the pedals
And so he probably had a neurological limiter due to the inflammation in his knees. But then you could also argue that it was just biomechanically much more efficient and he was using his glutes better and his quad better and hard to know, probably a combination of both. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (07:03.662) Yeah. The thing that comes to mind for me is, probably what you can't measure because you didn't track him over the next one to two years, but the compounding effect of actually getting it right. Yeah. Not having the knee pain, being able to train more, being able to recover.
Neill Stanbury (07:16.152) Cover better consistent training. Absolutely. Yeah. Even like I've seen this in a lot of people doing big volume. Some of my world tour and my continental guys who are There's a couple. we're not allowed to mention names. Most of these guys are sort of sworn to a vow of silence with this because they're sort of contractually not.
Cam Nicholls (07:26.936) world tour guides these days.
Neill Stanbury (07:40.918) to come and see people like me that are outside of the team medical system. I can't mention names, but I have had plenty of people with stuff like that where you've gotten rid of chronic bilateral knee pain and suddenly a couple of months later, they're fourth in a mountain top finish and they've been mid pack. Because they've been able to consistently train without the knee pain.
Cam Nicholls (08:02.414) Gosh, I feel you're fitted in. Two months later wins Melbourne to Waterpool, Australia's biggest biker.
Neill Stanbury (08:06.734) World tour all the way. World tour all the way that fella. Just an unbelievable win wasn't it? Yeah that was amazing. So I'll take full credit for that. Josh probably 5 % of the credit. I'll probably say 95%. Congratulations to Josh.
Cam Nicholls (08:22.286) So, you know, if I'm watching this at home, I'm like, okay, this sounds pretty important. If I feel like I'm experiencing some of these issues, like where am I going? What am I doing if I don't have access to a bike fitter like you? what can I play around with?
Neill Stanbury (08:35.96) So the big risk factors for sort of guessing or sort of extrapolating the EQ factor might be a little bit too narrow. Have a look at your hip internal rotation range. This is something you can check yourself at home. Flex your leg up to 90 degrees, turn your hip into internal rotation. If you've got more than about 30 degrees, you're probably going to be okay. If you've got less than 30 degrees down towards like 10 degrees, this is a sign that your internal rotation of your hips is not that flash.
And therefore it is going to be harder for you to tuck your knees tight to the frame. It's going to be more biomechanically difficult. So that's possibly a predictor that you might need to go wider in the Q factor. If you're just a heavy set, like a broad waisted person, like I'm obviously very narrow waisted. You're a bit, you're kind of middle of the bell curve. And then if you've got really big wide waist, big hips, it's much more likely that you're going to function better with a wider Q factor. have some jump on a trainer and grab some footage of yourself. Yep.
from the front. So jump on a trainer directly from the front with your whole body in the shot and just look at where that foot is and where the knee is relative to the foot. We can overlay that for the entire 12 minutes. And look at that. If that knee is chopping across the line of the pedal.
Cam Nicholls (09:35.989) used by footage again here.
Neill Stanbury (09:45.846) on the down stroke. It is not moving straight down vertically above the center line of the pedal. If it's chopping out, especially at the top of the stroke, whipping out and then whipping across, and it's doing that potentially on both legs, but often you'll see it really bad on one and not too bad on the other because of compensatory asymmetry, you're favoring your dominant leg. But if it's happening on both sides, definitely test the effect of widening your Q factor.
So if you're chopping outside the line of the pedal, that's the dead giveaway and use a really high resolution, you know, camera phone to take that footage and you should get a bit of a note. Yep. And if you want to move your feet further apart, I've got a whole bunch of options here for you and I'll run you through them quickly. There's a lot. They're all on the table in front of me.
Cam Nicholls (10:24.588) I'm gonna need speed plays aren't I or what are they called these days?
Neill Stanbury (10:27.24) You would, but I've got other options as well. Yeah. So let's say you need a tiny bit of Q factor increase. Shimano in their infinite wisdom is the only mainstream pedal manufacturer apart from Speedplay, the only mainstream three bolt pedal manufacturer who does make a wider spindle pedal. And they make these Ultegra and there's also a Dura Ace version, but the spindle is only four millimeters and four millimeters is not. These will do you if you're just a shade too narrow and you just need to get a little bit wider.
These can be good. Four millimeters, eight millimeters on both sides, therefore, not a message.
Cam Nicholls (11:01.198) you going to experience those type of symptoms or potential injuries that you described with a four millimeter each side discrepancy or is it normally got to be bigger to experience that or depends?
Neill Stanbury (11:11.062) It depends on a lot of things. It will scale depending, like if it's grossly off, like you need 15 mil on each side, you'll get much worse. Okay. Typically. If you're just getting subtle symptoms of that, it could just be that you only need four mil. And unfortunately, trial and error is the only way to really know. If you come in for a fit, we do that during the fit. But if you're buying these pedals and doing it yourself at home, it can get expensive quickly to try this stuff. Yeah. Unfortunately. Second option. Let's say you want to stick with a three ball pedal system, but you are happy to use Kio.
So SQ Labs, the German company that makes a whole bunch of nifty little bike fitting products and saddles and stuff, they make two different variants of this 512 race pedal, they call it. There's one with an eight millimeter longer than standard axle and one with a 15.
And I use these all the time. So this is plus eight, this is plus 15. These are pretty good quality. I experienced like a very small percentage of them failing here at the pivot point with it getting a little crack in the pivot point here of the opening clip at the rear, but very, very solid pedal. I haven't had any major problems with bearings or anything. They're pretty good.
Cam Nicholls (12:11.662) So plus eight and plus 15. So what if you plus 11 or 12?
Neill Stanbury (12:14.688) Well, luckily you can move the cleat sideways. yeah. So you've got in a Keo cleat you got about four or five mil of lateral play. A Shimano one will give you about six. So you can fine tune it within those jumps using the lateral play. Okay. Let's say you're using the king of all pedal systems like that. the one that you love. The most adjustable but also the quirkiest pedal system. I keep a really good stock of plus nine and plus 12 millimeter titanium spindles. And this will be visible on the video, but...
For those of you playing along at home, I've basically got a titanium spindle here that's just 12mm longer than the standard speed play spindle. These are about a 5 minute job to swap into the pedal. We've got a video we can link somewhere down below showing you how to do that. Very straight forward, works great.
Cam Nicholls (12:55.742) Are they technically compatible with the Wahoo B-Play system? So if you put those in and you experience an issue, well, Wahoo go, no, sorry, you're using the wrong spindle. It's not possible.
Neill Stanbury (13:05.902) Okay hasn't happened before but possibly not that I know of anyway, but yeah, if they were really finicky They might go all that that's a non-standard axle. Da da da speed play do actually sell these longer ones, but they are horrifically expensive Yeah, wahoo sells them. They're very expensive. I go aftermarket. Of course. Yeah, if you're using speed play again, there is a
Cam Nicholls (13:18.403) Do I
Neill Stanbury (13:26.326) An extender plate made by Form Bike Fitting out of the UK and this is an MLR 618. I don't know where they got these product numbers from. Ronan, let me know where you got this from. And this is a really nifty piece of gear. This replaces your standard base plate and it has a laterally drilled set of four holes. I think they're six millimeters offset. you can, depending upon which shoe you put this on, you can increase or decrease your Q factor by six mil just using that on the bottom of the shoe. Wow. That's create a bit of a funny situation where the
The center of the pedal is a long way towards the medial or lateral aspect of the shoe. Not many people have a great lot of trouble with that if you've got a stiff sole shoe, but it can be a bit of a weird feeling if all the pressure is going through the outside edge or the medial edge. So if you're putting out a lot of watts, I'd probably go with the, uh, the longer spindles rather than those. Okay. But not least, let's say you're a total mess. Okay. You've got horrific hip mobility. You've got arthritis in your hips, you're six foot eight, you're broad as a brick dunny, as we say. Let's say you've got a really wide waist and you need.
Cam Nicholls (14:24.024) for all these side, Neil.
Neill Stanbury (14:25.198) yeah, sorry. I don't think that's common. All the empiricants at home. Brick Dunny. Brick Dunny. Let's say you've got really bad hip mobility and you're massive. A 20 millimeter pedal extender, you can get these in 16 mil longer variants, but I don't trust them. There's not enough meat in this section where the two threaded sections join for them to be really strong and safe, in my opinion. So the minimum length I would go with with these, there's a plus 20 that I'm holding here. And this is the big dog. This one is a 27 millimeter extender. That's as far as you're wanting.
Because you're putting massive tangential like torsional loading on the crank face with this as you put pressure down on the pedal It's gonna be wanting to twist the crank face and they can be a bit sketchy if you've got a big heavy set dude I would be very nervous about cracking ranks. Okay all of the other systems that I just showed you right out to the plus 15 millimeter length and SQ labs pedals I've never once ever had anyone break a crank with any of it. Okay. I've actually never had anyone break a
crank with a set of 20 mil extenders either, but I am led to believe that it can happen. So I'm nervous about those with big, heavy set, powerful people over a hundred kilos. And if they're using them, I usually advise
Wed, 29 Apr 2026 - 16min - 83 - YouTuber Mitch Boyer Shares His Coaching Journey with the RCA
Podcast Summary: In this episode, Mitch Boyer shares his journey from a casual cyclist to a more confident and skilled rider through coaching, structured training, and community engagement. Discover how personalized coaching, mental resilience, and strategic training can lead to significant performance improvements and life benefits. RCA 12 WEEK CUSTOM PLAN; https://roadcyclingacademy.com/cycling-plan-custom/ key topics
The impact of coaching on cycling performance Balancing social rides with structured training Mental resilience and motivation in cycling Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the RCA Podcast 01:02 Mitch's Cycling Journey Begins 02:13 The Decision to Get a Coach 04:09 Initial Training Experience 08:03 Key Learnings from the 12-Week Program 12:22 Building Confidence Through Training 18:09 Integrating Group Rides with Training 23:46 Long-Term Growth and Self-Discovery 28:22 Navigating Peaks and Troughs in Motivation 32:31 The Importance of Recovery 34:34 BMC Bike Discussion and Personal Preferences Transcript:Cam Nicholls (00:01.816) Welcome to the RCA podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA Podcast where today I am joined by one of our members, Mitch Boyer, all the way from California. How you going, Mitch?
Mitch Boyer (00:37.442) Good, how are doing? I'm excited to be here.
Cam Nicholls (00:39.534) Excited to be here. You've got some big things happening over the next few weeks, I'm hearing.
Mitch Boyer (00:44.334) Yeah, my wife and I are expecting our first child. Kind of a big thing. Thank you.
Cam Nicholls (00:48.91) I if you're having a boy or a girl. A girl. I've got two of them.
Mitch Boyer (00:52.334) Thanks. Any advice? That's maybe another podcast. Yeah. I'm equal parts excited and terrified, which I think is probably normal.
Cam Nicholls (00:55.822) Good luck.
Cam Nicholls (01:02.744) So yeah, we're not going to talk about how deeply you're into your training right now because you're no doubt that you're not really trying to peak for any events. It's probably the opposite, but I wanted to bring you on because one of the, I guess the challenges that we have as a business and I have running the business is really trying to normalise cycle coaching. Cause I think a lot of people think of it as maybe a little bit beyond them. Maybe they think it's going to be another thing in their life.
Uh, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty surrounding it. So you being one of our members, know, you being in that sort of recreational amateur slash basket. I wanted to speak to you about your journey, you know, in coaching and I'm going to, you know, I would like for you to not tell everyone how good the RCA is. don't want this to be a promo for the RCA, even though it may be difficult because I know you and Ryan have a great working relationship, but more so, you know, just your experiences as, you know, just a regular Joe Blow that likes writing is
bike eight to 10 hours per week when you're consistent, what your experience has been like. So maybe if we wind it right back to when you first decided to get a coach, it was pretty early days for you and your cycling journey. Yeah.
Mitch Boyer (02:13.71) So I picked up, I'm a COVID baby when it comes to cycling. I picked up my first drop bar bike, I think May, 2020. And then I started working with the RCA. You guys are my first and my only. I think around November, December, 2021. So yeah, I was about a year and a half into my cycling journey. Okay. At that point.
Cam Nicholls (02:37.24) which is pretty early days for somebody that steps into coaching. Normally people that do make the leap have been sitting on a performance plateau for a good three to five years. And it's just like, all right, I'm so frustrated with my mate going past me and not performing in Fundo events. I'm gonna finally make this leap of faith and they do it. Whereas you were 18 months. So why do you think it was in the scheme of the general population a lot faster for you to consider some coaching?
Mitch Boyer (03:05.326) Yeah, that's good question. think in general, in my life, I'm always looking for people to mentor me. And I think there's a lot of value in having just another person who knows what they're talking about helping you, whatever it is you're doing. And so I had done that with my career in design before I had done that with, so like I have ADHD. So I had hired an ADHD coach to help me make sure I like actually do my work and stuff.
So I'm always looking for coaches and everything. Cause I feel like if I don't have other people keeping me accountable, everything kind of goes haywire in my life. I think specific to cycling, I had gotten really into watching a lot of cycling YouTube and seeing what other people could do. And it kind of snowballed in that like I got a trainer and I started seeing what my power numbers were. And then there was the question of like, how high can I get my power numbers? And then just because of that.
kind of history I told you about where I'm always looking for mentorship. was like, okay, like are there cycling coaches? And I think I stumbled on your videos and you know, one thing led to another and then I met you.
Cam Nicholls (04:09.838) So before you met the RCA and you decided to do what was back then our 12 week up level program, what kind of training were you doing? And then do you feel like you were stuck? had you sort of performance plateaued or was more about wanting some guidance than anything?
Mitch Boyer (04:27.726) Yeah, well before that point, so you know my first couple rides in 2020, it was probably similar to a lot of people. I was just getting out and riding for fun and then I noticed my rides started getting longer and longer and then further and further and in LA there's a bunch of mountains and so I started with the smaller mountains and then got bigger and bigger and bigger and I think my biggest ride at that point there's this mountain out here called Mount Wilson. It's a pretty big climb. I think it's about 5,000 feet.
in climbing from if I were to go out my door and then ride to the top of this mountain. And that was the biggest ride I had ever done. And it just killed me at the end of it. I guess as far as plateaus at that point, I had no idea about pacing. I had no idea about fueling. And I thought that's the biggest ride I'm ever going to do. There's nothing any bigger than that. And then again, I was just watching other cyclists on YouTube doing these amazing long rides and I couldn't figure out how they were able to do that.
as normal people and not as professionals. And I think that's probably part of it. It's been a couple of years, so I'm kind of trying to think back. the other thing is my wife and I were getting married and we had got a Peloton and I did my first FTP test on a Peloton and my FTP on the Peloton was inflated because the power meter was just wildly incorrect and it gave me an FTP above 300 watts on the Peloton. And I just forgot about this.
When I put real power meter pedals on, I found out my actual FTP was like 234 Watts. So going from 317 watt FTP in my mind to that was so devastating. I was like, I got to fix this. And that's what got me to reach out to you.
Cam Nicholls (06:04.814) Okay, interesting. Yeah. If the Peloton was giving you great numbers, why did you decide to get, I think you got the Astioma Power Pedals for memory?
Mitch Boyer (06:12.142) Yeah, that's right. It was very, I don't know. I'd rather know how bad I am than live in delusion.
Cam Nicholls (06:19.16) Which yeah, okay. Some people like living in delusion. Me sometimes. But of course you can't take the Peloton out onto the road. So did you buy the the Asiomers because you wanted... because a lot of people do that. They have the indoor trainer set up with power and then the outdoor they just they don't have power setups.
Mitch Boyer (06:35.672) Yeah, I think seeing the numbers on the Peloton inspired me to get the power meter pedals because I wanted to put them on my bike. then immediately made me depressed upon seeing the reality. And then of course, every video I watched about the Asioma pedals were like, these are the most accurate pedals that you can get. Each time I watched them, I'm no.
Cam Nicholls (06:53.646) Yeah, he's...
Yeah, you're looking on all these forums and trying to find out maybe the Peloton is, you know, is more accurate than the Assiomus. Exactly. Maybe I can find something. Were you doing any kind of structured training before you started with us? Were you doing like, you know, exclusive zone two rides? Were you doing high intensity training sessions? Were you doing any sort of periodization or were you just riding your bike?
Mitch Boyer (07:18.69) just riding my bike and then Peloton, which had like a few structured rides, but it was very rudimentary. Looking back, it was just a bunch of like junk thrown at me. Like you would like have a warmup and then basically a bunch of not even VO2 max intervals and then a cool down. So nothing like zone two training, nothing like any real structured training. All of that was new.
Cam Nicholls (07:40.878) Yeah, okay. So then stepping into coaching initially, and I might be pushing the memory bank here a little bit. Maybe we need to go back and watch that video that you made after the 12 week experience with us. But can you remember what your biggest learnings were from that first 12 weeks? And what were the biggest needle movers for you in terms of fitness gains?
Mitch Boyer (08:03.016) I think if I'm thinking back to then, the biggest things that I really learned was one, a reinforcement of that having somebody to coach you is incredibly valuable just from an accountability standpoint. just knowing, cause you were coaching me at the start, just knowing that like, Cam's going to be like looking at my power file encouraged me or scared me into like actually doing my best or like actually getting out the door more than once and going on the ride.
Whereas if I didn't have that accountability, I know not just in those first couple of weeks, but in the years after there are plenty of times I just wouldn't have gone out and rode my bike that day. That accountability is probably the most beneficial thing for me personally. And that's something that I think only comes when you have an actual person reviewing the files. If you don't have that, then that you get a lot of the other benefits from training, but not that personal accountability.
The thing I was most proud of though, when we were working together in those first 12 weeks, I remember part of the program was doing like a benchmark climb. And the benchmark climb I chose was the second half of this Griffith Park Hill climb that we have out here in LA. That's part of the Pony's group ride. And so now I ride it every single week, but that second part of the climb like kicks up. think there's like a 9 % average at the end. And I think I went from doing like 300 and something watts to almost 400 watts over the course of that, like five minutes.
at the end of it and just seeing that like jump in power and seeing those numbers on the power meter in real life as opposed to the Peloton was just so exciting for me.
Cam Nicholls (09:38.658) Yeah, I think for memory, had quite a big lift in your FTP and your maximum aerobic power because back then we were using the half Monty, which is an FTP testing protocol on Wahoo system or Wahoo X, I think it's called now. Obviously we've shifted now to more critical power testing, but I think you had the biggest uplift in both of those metrics because we tested halfway through around six weeks. And then the last time you tested at 12 weeks, the uptick wasn't...
that significant, but what we could see from your benchmark climb and on road testing was it was kind of like you actually caught up to what your testing results were. Because a lot of people do a test and they're like, there's no way I could hold that out on the road. And you didn't say that to me specifically, but often it's the case people see these big gains in terms of the testing, but then they think to themselves, don't think I could actually hold that out on the road, which they may not be able to, but then you keep training and you keep conditioning yourself. And as we saw in your data that you kind of
caught up to, you did increase your FTP and your maximum aerobic power, which is VO2 max at the end of the 12 weeks from the six week mark a little bit, but your on-road performance was vastly improved in that last six weeks.
Mitch Boyer (10:48.748) Yeah, I think that was kind of a recurring thing throughout my training over the last few years is like all these little breakthroughs that like working with you and working with Ryan, a lot of the things that have helped me is whether it's deliberate or not, I assume it's deliberate. But for example, Ryan would push me to just like extend my, whether it was like an FTP effort or the O2 max effort or even like a zone two effort.
At the beginning of training block, sometimes just to see those numbers a little bit higher than what I was used to. So like in an FTP effort doing a six minute interval instead of like a 12 or a 15 minute interval and seeing that those numbers up higher than I'd ever seen them before when I was doing like a FTP interval. Just seeing those numbers kind of clicked something in my mind where it's like, okay, I know I can do it. And then the rest of the training block was working up towards, you know, extending the amount of time that I could hold that power.
But there was something about just unlocking that. And I guess that started with the journey with you that really, I think that's something fun about training. just seeing something that's possible and then working towards extending it.
Cam Nicholls (11:55.082) Well, I mean, it's, guess what you're describing there and from a scientific standpoint is progressive overload. So, you know, the coach is slowly helping you progress, see what's possible. And then in a week's time or two weeks time, then you go out and you extend it a little bit further. And that is giving you confidence. And I recall from the early days content that, you know, there were some streets in your area that you were like, I'll never get up those. And the training gave you the confidence to go to the streets.
Mitch Boyer (12:22.03) Yeah. Immediately after that 12 week training block, that's when I started doing steep streets. And for anybody who doesn't know my content, my main shtick is riding up steep streets. going and punishing myself. And there just happened to be a few of the steepest streets in the world that are in my neighborhood. Cause the part of LA that I live in, they just decided to ignore the topography of the land and just put.
like straight up mountains. And yeah, if we had not, couldn't, know for a fact, cause I've seen the, like my numbers, if we had not gone through that training block, I would not have made it up those streets and I would never have even made that first episode. And yeah, I guess that's, that's a whole different trajectory than I could have ever anticipated.
Cam Nicholls (13:03.502) What do you think it is? Because I think it's intertwined in training and in pushing yourself and in sort of aspiration. But like, why do you think those Steep Streets videos, obviously they're well produced. Mitch, I know you're a very good producer over there, but there's obviously, you you produce a lot of different videos and the Steep Street ones are the ones that tend to really get the views. Why do you think that is?
Mitch Boyer (13:24.066) I think that, mean, this is something I've thought a lot about because I'm like, why do those videos get 10 times the views of any of my other videos? And how do I replicate that? I think, well, for one, I do fall a lot in those videos. And I think people crashing gets views, even if it's a really ugly slow motion crash on a steep hill. But I think there's the, they're short, they're generally about a minute long and there's the accomplishment at the end. People have a short attention span. It's really hard with cycling, especially road cycling. There's a lot of really long efforts and to tell a story.
That's engaging where basically the beginning, middle and end happen over the course of an hour or several hours. Even if you've condensed that in a YouTube video, that's a lot of story to tell. Whereas a steep street, that's only a minute or long, a minute or so long, there's a beginning, middle and end. The payoff is really, really fast. And it's something anybody can really understand because even if they've never ridden a bike up a steep street, they've tried walking up one or driven a car up one. And everybody has an opinion.
about how they've seen a street that is steeper than what they see in the video. So I think it's got a bunch of really kind of interesting points.
Cam Nicholls (14:28.236) Nah, fair call. And going back to that first 12 weeks before we sort of migrate to what you've learnt with Ryan over the years, because I know you've been working with our head coach for quite a long time now. Did it feel like, in all honesty, did it, because I know there's when you're first coming on board and you've got to, you know, using different technology maybe, some people have never even had an indoor trainer before. I think you might've.
purchased a new indoor trainer as you were getting set up, but how did you find that onboarding experience? Was it a lot to take on? Was it overwhelming? And then over the 12 weeks, like did the training, you you talk about accountability, did it feel like a bit of a weight on your shoulders or was it more freeing in terms of you didn't have to worry about what you were doing and you could just get on with the show?
Mitch Boyer (15:13.622) that's a good question. For those initial 12 weeks. Yeah. So I started out with a tax Neo, I think. And much like the Peloton that I think the tax trainers are a lot better now, but that specific tax I had had issues with the power meter. and so I did the same thing after I'd seen the Peloton numbers be so drastically different from the Asioma pedals. put the Asioma pedals on my bike when I was on the tax trainer. Once again, the numbers were not consistent. So I ended up.
giving my dad the tax trainer and then I went on and bought a Wahoo kicker. So I did get a new trainer for that. That was a little frustrating, but that was again my fault. I probably should have done a little more research. There were plenty of videos that could have warmed me about that. I think so that I mean, there's just like there's a bunch of little things anytime you try anything, but I think that's part of the journey and part of the fun. The nice thing about having the RCA and I assume any coach, but was I was able to ask you questions about that.
and kind of get instant feedback on like, yeah, I'm noticing the power of data is different between these things. And having an authority figure to ask questions for me personally is very, like remove some of that stress, right? Rather than trying to bumble around and figure out and search on all the forms. And then you don't know who's actually writing on these forms. This person could sound like they know what they're doing, but they may not know what they're doing at all. So it's always nice to have somebody else that you trust to answer those questions. And I think that that really helped.
Cam Nicholls (16:41.912) This podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. If you're a recreational or amateur road cyclist and you're stuck on a frustrating performa
Thu, 16 Apr 2026 - 39min - 82 - Indoor vs Outdoor Cycling: What the Research Really Says
This episode explores the differences between indoor and outdoor cycling, examining research findings, muscle activation, and practical tips for optimizing indoor training. Hosted by Cam Nicholls with expert insights from RCA coach Ben Treble, it offers valuable guidance for cyclists aiming to improve performance and understand the nuances of training environments. Stannards: https://stannards.com.au/ RCA: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/ key topics
Indoor vs outdoor cycling differences Research findings on power output Muscle activation during cycling Practical tips for indoor training Equipment and setup considerations Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the episode and guest 00:27 Why are we discussing indoor vs outdoor cycling? 01:20 Research insights on indoor vs outdoor power output 02:09 Adjusting power zones for indoor training 03:00 Power meter differences and calibration 04:19 Key research findings on power output differences 06:43 Muscle activation differences between indoor and outdoor cycling 08:01 Summary of research and individual differences 09:52 Variability in power output and environmental factors 11:42 Practical tips for indoor training setup 14:07 Why indoor feels harder and how to adapt 16:44 Muscle activation and fatigue in indoor cycling 19:52 Key takeaways for indoor training optimization Transcript:Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA podcast designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Cam Nicholls (00:27.746) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined by RCA coach Ben Trevill. We're in a hotel room in Sydney. Why are we in a hotel room in Sydney, Ben? What are you doing here?
Ben Treble (00:38.411) I'm here supporting the RCA Pro Velo League team for the Sydney Harbour City GP races.
Cam Nicholls (00:45.602) You're doing the DS, the director's sporting.
Ben Treble (00:47.667) Yeah, filling in for Ryan who's getting on the pedals.
Cam Nicholls (00:51.308) Yeah. And I'm here attempting to make some content and I thought we'd use this opportunity to get together face to face and, you know, talk about some relevant topics for the audience training related, of course. The first one that I wanted to talk about is indoor versus outdoor cycling and the differences in, I guess, sensation and power output. Because I know a lot of RCA members that I've dealt with in the past and I know that you deal with do...
tend to not struggle more, but they feel it's a little bit more difficult on the indoor versus the outdoor. But Yona, you've had a look at the research and the research may suggest something a little bit different. So I wanted to dig into that and hopefully we can come to some sort of conclusion at end of this discussion. I'm not sure if we will, but what's the research telling you when it comes to indoor versus outdoor?
Ben Treble (01:41.486) Yeah, I think I will start by saying often when we look at research to practice, we find differences. So yeah, in practice, it's exactly what I felt personally, the feedback I get from my writers, what you've heard is that yeah, indoor training feels harder and it's kind of the perception that people even go as far to say you need to test indoors and outdoors and have different thresholds for indoors, outdoors and different zones or down adjust your zones by 5 % for indoors, for example.
Cam Nicholls (02:09.198) Is that what you do with your members?
Ben Treble (02:10.765) I do not know. Okay. If they need to down adjust it a couple percent for a certain session, like I'm not against it if it means they get through it, but generally, no, I don't set up separate zones for indoors outdoors. would only be if someone said to me, I'm going to do three months entirely indoors, or I want to do Zwift racing. That was their main goal. Then I would test indoors, train indoors and set zones based on indoors.
Cam Nicholls (02:35.598) Okay. And what about the, this is a kind of like a, I guess a side note, but quite often, you know, people using different power meters as well. And, know, there will be even outside of the fact that the sensation feels maybe a little bit more difficult on the indoor, the indoor trainer reads a little bit lower as well. You know, like the kicker trainer or the indoor bike versus, you know, the Asioma power pedals, it might be 10, 15 Watts. So what do you do surrounding that?
Ben Treble (03:00.888) first tip I give athletes when I have an onboarding with them and we chat about equipment is do you use your kicker's power meter or your trainer's power meter or do you connect your bike's power meter and use that as the power source when you do indoor training. that's what I would ask my athletes to do because then they want the same power source, you want to use the same power meter, indoors, outdoors. Where that's getting tricky though is a lot of people are moving to these sort of the Wahoo indoor bikes and the Zwift indoor bikes.
Cam Nicholls (03:27.896) Got one myself.
Ben Treble (03:28.78) where, you know, unless you're going to swap over your Asioma pedals or something, yet you don't get that choice. So it's important to know there are differences in power meters and a couple percent when you're doing high intensity efforts can make a big difference. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (03:42.062) Okay, so the conclusion of that is ideally use the same power meter if you can, if you can't know what the differences are and adjust accordingly.
Ben Treble (03:48.782) Absolutely. So back to research, I sort of assumed I was just going to search the journals and find papers that prove that indoor and outdoor there's differences and we should have different thresholds. Fully aware I would have confirmation bias that that's what I was looking for. It's not what I found. So I was a bit surprised. Caveat, again, there's not actually a lot of research on this topic and I've only spent probably half a day digging. So there's probably a lot more out there still. But from what I found, there's a paper, a lot of people have, you we've referenced in our newsletter in the
Cam Nicholls (04:17.3) Seems to be the main paper people point to.
Ben Treble (04:19.214) Exactly. There's a 2022 paper from Lipski. There's two points I find interesting in this paper. One, they looked at mean maximal powers and threshold tests, indoors versus outdoors. That's probably the main component of the paper. They only looked at males. It's a small sample size. I think it was 12 and they're elite, you know, essentially world two or level athletes. So, pretty specific population group. And they found differences where...
they could do better power essentially outdoors than indoors. There was a significant difference enough where they would say, yeah, this is worthwhile looking at. I think it was about 20 Watts, give or take.
Cam Nicholls (04:53.39) Is it around 20 watts?
Cam Nicholls (04:58.072) I'll pull it up while you keep talking then.
Ben Treble (04:59.822) Yeah, so the two points I really wanted to touch on, one, the population group people need to be mindful of. It's probably not relevant to 99 % of our audience.
Cam Nicholls (05:08.418) Yeah. Amateurs and recreational pro athletes. 19 watts.
Ben Treble (05:11.294) Absolutely. Yeah, 19 watts, which is measurable and that's fine. But I think this is the next bit. When you dig into that paper, there's a statistical piece of analysis that they used, which it's appropriate, but I don't know if it's appropriate when we know this is high performance in small samples where individual differences matter. So we always say these people use group mains, for example, in this paper, what they did is they used a trimmed main.
And they used a pretty high percentage of trimming, 20%, which means that they cut out the top 20 and the bottom 20 % of data points and their group means are only based on that middle 80%. Now, I know I looked at individual responses out of the 12, two of them did better indoors, but those data points got cut out because of the trimming. Already, if they had used total group means, like you would have had a different outcome. So, this is...
Cam Nicholls (05:53.153) Okay.
Wow.
Ben Treble (06:04.248) just a bit of a mindful thing, I think, for people when they quote. This paper gets quoted a lot and like all papers, you get a lot of individual difference and that's probably going to be our main discussion point.
Cam Nicholls (06:14.872) Yeah. Okay. So what, was there anything else that you found that was worth referencing? think the one that came to mind, which isn't so much about results, but it was more so relating to, was a paper done just recently and it wasn't, it wasn't a super comprehensive paper, but they looked at muscle activation and how your muscles respond differently on the indoor versus the outdoor, notably our calf, quadricep and shin. I'm not sure why they're measuring the shin muscle.
You may have a better understanding why. I don't really think of my shin muscle and I think about cycling and the paper didn't look at glutes at all, which is probably a major oversight and probably a cost reason behind it. But it was interesting to note that a lot of people feel a different sensation when they're on the indoor and that paper is basically shining the light on, yeah, you are activating the muscles in a different way.
Ben Treble (07:05.25) Yeah. think, can we finish on that paper? Cause I think it's a good way to wrap up the summary to some respect in the discussion. So when I did my little digging in the journals, I found a couple of papers and in summary, they all had a similar conclusion, which there's no measurable difference between indoors and outdoors when they looked at true threshold testing and mean maximal powers. Again, they're finding individual differences. So in the discussions, they talk about people who had more
experience in indoor training, trended towards doing better on indoors than outdoors, which makes a lot of logical sense. And the people who, you know, spent 90 % of their time training outdoors, put them on indoor trainer and yeah, the RPEs went up higher and they couldn't do as, do as well as they do outdoors. So that makes sense. The papers are, if you are wondering, there's an unpublished paper coming out later this year at, science and cycling conference at the tour.
So this is pre-publication paper, 2026 from Lee Inn, comparison of indoor outdoor writing ability. They looked at 18 males and 12 females. They're trained, but unprofessional. They found a moderate to high correlation between FTP results across indoor outdoor tests was 0.83. So not, I wouldn't call it a very strong correlation, but definitely not pointing the other direction enough to say there is a difference between the two.
It's pushing you much more to a direction to say there's no difference. The other paper was from 23. It's a comparison of mean maximal powers. This one's probably slightly more nuanced because they looked at mean maximal powers across indoor outdoor testing. They also looked at recorded maximal powers from training data and competition data. This paper's from Sebastian Doock et al. They only looked at seven male amateurs. So again, very small sample size.
Notably, the only power durations they ever really found measurable differences was a five and 15 second. So sprint power, very neuromuscular. No real measurable difference in the five and 20 minute power durations across all four of those environments or contexts. So yeah, and no significant difference in mean maximal powers for the indoor and outdoor testing at all. The only differences they really found was in within the training data, they often found higher.
Ben Treble (09:24.46) sorry, lower maximal powers. And it was the race data where they were doing some of their peak powers outdoors. Okay. So a lot of context to that one. The third paper I looked at was a 2019 paper. So a bit older than the others. They did an analysis of it's the variability in power outputs. So that's where we're coming to our last discussion. During indoor outdoor cycling time trials, 20 male cyclists, no measurable difference in 20 minute time trial power between indoor and outdoor. However,
What they did find was there's a greater variability in the power across the two. So in simple terms, they're finding no measurable difference in the average power for the 20 minute time trial. But if you were to look at the normalized compared to the average, you're going to expect a higher normalized for outdoors. So a greater degree of fluctuation in the power versus indoors where it's more steady state.
Cam Nicholls (10:14.082) This podcast episode is brought to you by Stannards, a proud sponsor of the RCA's Pro Velo cycling team, RCA Bikes Online. And they've been a big supporter of Aussie cycling over the years. They're a Melbourne headquartered business with offices right across Australia. And they've been around since 1946, helping businesses and high net worth individuals with accounting, tax and broader business strategy. And just for a bit of transparency, I've actually known one of the partners since 1994.
is a schoolmate of mine, in fact, a very good mate of mine. So I've seen firsthand how the business operates and the type of people they are. What I like about Stanars is they're not just your typical tax time accountant. They've got a fully integrated set up, so business services, audit and a strategic advisory so they can support businesses and high net worth individuals right across the whole journey.
They work across a heap of different industries too. So they've got construction, manufacturing, healthcare, technology, hospitality, the list goes on and they're very accustomed to dealing with real world challenges. They've grown to over 110 people in recent times now backed by Pemba Capital Partners and they're continuing to expand. So if you're looking for a proper long-term advisory partner, not just someone to help you log your tax return, Stanarts are definitely worth a look. We'll drop a link.
to their business in the podcast description and let's get back to the episode. Yep. Okay. Makes sense.
Ben Treble (11:42.446) Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Cam Nicholls (11:44.302) I'm just a bit of a side note. I'm one of those rare crazy people that has actually done that one hour test. Really? Yeah. On the indoor and outside. And I did it within like a two week period. So I gave myself like a couple of weeks because I was pretty fatigued. Yeah. So this is just an interesting anecdote. So I did three, this is when I was in better form than I am now, 365 Watts for an hour.
Outdoors, that's average power, it's not normalized power. And 300 and think it was 336 watts or 335 watts, somewhere around that. This is about 30 watt difference on the indoor going all out for an hour. Don't recommend it to people at home. It was the worst thing ever. My physiological stress though on the indoor was a heat. My heart rate was just going through the roof. I think I hit an all time best heart rate number. So just dropping that one in there as you're going through the research paper.
Ben Treble (12:35.222) Yeah, I think, I mean, that's where the discussion is going to lead us, right? It's one thing for the research to say, here's what we see. It's another then kind of confirm or validate why is it different to what we see in practice? So currently, like from the research I've found and seen, I wouldn't expect within testing, like you should be able to do the similar power indoor outdoors. There's no difference. So then why in practice are we seeing reasonable differences?
And a lot of the papers still talk about this, it's, it's again, it's environment and context, including bike setup or equipment setup. Even if you were just, for example, to go within outdoor cycling, you can change the environment and see significantly different, you know, test results. You could say, go do a one hour effort up climb and go do a one hour effort on the flat. If you go take a climber and say, go do one hour on a climb and then try to do one hour at the same power on a flat.
you're probably going to see just as big variation in power output as you did with indoor outdoor. And I think that's where the discussion is going to go. So why do we see this difference? Because you do have a lot of context. How much training are you doing indoor versus outdoor? That's probably the first part. And then we're going to talk about setup. Have you got fans? Have you got air conditioning with your indoor trainer? Core body temperature slowly rising up on indoor training is probably one of the biggest key factors.
as to why the RP starts to go up as you experience heart rate starts to go up, especially during maximal longer efforts. And of course the RP is going to go through the roof as a result, like your power is going to drop off.
Cam Nicholls (14:07.214) Yep, that's what happened.
Ben Treble (14:09.398) Yeah. I mean, what is your experience, Cam, like with some of your writers who say indoor feels harder?
Cam Nicholls (14:14.87) It's probably like when I reflect, they're probably less focused on indoor training. Maybe they're just getting into it. A lot of our, you know, as you would know, a lot of people that come on board to the RCA don't necessarily, there were a lot of indoor training initially, but then they start embracing it because they recognise the benefits, particularly around doing structured training, being able to hit your targets and being efficient as well during the week. So I think a lot of them are inexperienced on the trainer and thus struggle with it a bit because they're not used to it. It's a different adaptation.
But then conversely, you know, we've got some members and Thomas Martinez, the cycling tattooist on YouTube comes to mind who train with us for a bit. And he's actually stronger on the indoor trainer. His power numbers are better and he prefers the indoor, but he does most of his riding indoor. It does make a lot of sense.
Ben Treble (14:59.678) That makes a lot of sense. This is back to that paper you briefly mentioned earlier. Why else would there be a difference indoors and outdoors? I think if you're a newer rider, of course, if you've never done indoors, again, one of the biggest differences, those Ergo trainers, especially if you turn Ergo on and for people listening, if you haven't done it, Ergo holds you to a certain power. So if you turn it on, it forces you to push that power.
And not only do you have to push, let's just use 200 Watts as an example, it forces you no matter what your cadence is, you have to push 200 Watts evenly through the entire pedal stroke. And even if you get a very well trained cyclist and you say, do a steady state effort outdoors, if you look at the power production through the pedal stroke, it'll never be like force applied evenly through the full stroke. They might get it very good, but it's not going to be perfect. And then if you look at the indoor training,
It forces you to hold it through the full pedal stroke. So what does this do as a result? Well, if you haven't done it very much, it's going to feel significantly harder because you've got to apply force evenly through the entire stroke constantly. There's no point at which you can just have that little back off at the top.
Cam Nicholls (16:12.086) Yeah, or coast down the hill or like what most people do when they're outdoors.
Ben Treble (16:15.31) Yeah. So suddenly this accumulates even a one hour zone two feels significantly harder than zone two outdoors. So this paper that you brought to me that started this conversation is pretty recent, 2025 or late 2025. I'll probably pronounce it w
Wed, 15 Apr 2026 - 21min - 81 - The VO2 Max Workout Most Cyclists Don't Know About
Summary:
What if the best VO2 max workout… isn't the one everyone's doing?
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with Head Coach Ryan Thomas to break down a lesser-known, research-backed VO2 max protocol from 2020 — and why it's been delivering serious results with RCA riders.
Instead of traditional intervals like 30/15s or sustained 3-minute efforts, this session flips things on its head:
👉 Decreasing intervals 👉 Incomplete recovery 👉 More time above 90% VO2 max
And that last point is key.
Because in the research world, spending more time above 90% VO2 max is strongly linked to greater aerobic gains — and this workout gets you there faster, and keeps you there longer.
In this episode, we cover:
The 2020 research paper and what it actually found Why this "reverse" interval structure works so well How RCA adapted it into a practical workout (without destroying riders) Exact structure, power targets, and execution tips When to use this session in your training (and when NOT to) How to integrate it into a 6-week build toward a key eventIf you've been stuck rotating the same VO2 sessions and not seeing progress, this could be the new stimulus you've been missing.
Research paper: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-020-04463-w
🎯 Who this is for: Recreational and amateur cyclists looking to break through a plateau and train smarter — not just harder.
📈 The takeaway: It's not always about doing more… sometimes it's about doing it differently.
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:01.454) Welcome to the RCA Podcast, designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips, all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Ryan Thomas (00:24.91) you
Cam Nicholls (00:26.124) Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. So if you're listening over audio, please excuse any visual references. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas, and we're going to be talking about a different way to boost VO2 max. And it's based on research and it's a workout that's been going through the RCA ranks in recent times. We've been utilizing it with a lot of our members with great success. So Ryan, maybe we first start off by talking about the research paper. What did it say?
Ryan Thomas (00:51.564) Yeah, so it's called high intensity decreasing. It was done in 2020 and they were comparing three pretty common VO2, two common VO2 workouts with this new VO2 protocol. guess what they were trying to achieve is what workout got you the most time above 90 % of VO2 max. Within the research world, if you've read research papers around VO2 max, they're trying to get to that mark. They're trying to spend a lot of time above 90 % of VO2 max.
Cam Nicholls (00:53.966) Yep, we'll link it below.
Cam Nicholls (01:18.52) because that's where they say the biggest gains for people.
Ryan Thomas (01:20.462) Yeah, and if you're below that, you're kind of just working threshold. So you want to kind of want to get up over 90 % of VFC max and spend a lot of time there. We're comparing 3020s, which is an interesting one, but it's kind of the short intensity is what they call it. So on-off, really short on-offs. So similar to 3015s, but probably not quite as good as 3015s. We've done a bit of stuff on 3015s and I...
Cam Nicholls (01:27.992) So what were the two workouts I was comparing?
Cam Nicholls (01:44.492) They were trying to manipulate the paper a little bit. The 3015s were... We did a video on this by the way. We'll link it up there on the 3015s.
Ryan Thomas (01:46.786) Yeah
Ryan Thomas (01:51.022) There's probably a research bias there. the, yeah, they compared 30 20s, similar duration against long intensity there to workouts, which was three minute on, two minute off. So three minute VO2, quite a high percentage.
Cam Nicholls (02:05.55) That's a common sustain VO2 workout.
Ryan Thomas (02:08.205) Yeah, not a common recovery period. So they've done some interesting things here in comparing the protocols, but I think they were trying to manipulate the time in VO2 and actually about 90%. So they were comparing against those two. So the theory is that they're short intensity, they're really quick on-offs and then they're sustained VO2. Like what's the best with those compared to this new interval workout? And the new interval workout was kind of, was a new theory for me and a new theory for I feel the RCA coaches as well, which is why we've been using it.
It's a much longer interval. that typical 30-15, you're doing like maybe seven to eight minutes there. The three minutes is obviously three minutes. So it's quite different. And this one goes for around 12 minutes, but it's a, you start with a three minute effort, then you have two minutes recovery, then a two minute effort. It's at 50 % of the power you were doing. So it's around zone.
Cam Nicholls (02:54.072) full recovery though or is it?
Cam Nicholls (02:58.902) Yes, I think that's when I did the work out of Worked Out About Zone 2.
Ryan Thomas (03:01.566) Yeah, so it's middle of zone two roughly. So you're not completely off. I think that's why it keeps the oxygen consumption a bit higher is because you're not fully deloading. three minutes on, two minutes off, two minutes on, 80 seconds off, one minute on, 40 seconds off, 40 seconds on, 30 seconds off, 30, 20, 30, 20 until failure. That's what they did in the research.
Cam Nicholls (03:23.374) Which early 20 till failure. Okay.
And repeat that all that stuff. Just that one. That's it. one.
Ryan Thomas (03:30.798) Right, so it's a very hard effort going to failure. Yeah, so they're trying to get the most out of it But when what they found was I'm looking at the plot now We can probably put the overlay in here is that the longer the effort that just with the with the recovery periods the vr2 was just staying over 90 % for that one essentially once you get past the two-minute recovery and you into the two-minute effort you're above 90 % and pretty close to 95 % for majority of the remainder of that effort So you're getting close to eight minutes above
90%, whereas the other efforts, it takes about half of that interval duration to get above 90%. Okay, so the theory was here that quickly you're getting up over that 90 % and you're staying there for eight to 10 minutes. The rewards, theoretically in the research, the rewards are much higher.
Cam Nicholls (04:14.486) Yeah. So was the outcomes more so aligned to just spending time above VO2 or was there a testing protocol?
Ryan Thomas (04:20.77) They were predominantly just looking at spending time above, they really looking at what the outcomes performance were, were looking at the actual VO2.
Cam Nicholls (04:29.23) Okay. Yeah, I mean, the thing that I really enjoyed about it as somebody who's been training for a long period of time is you get to a point where you've kind of done all the workouts and, you know, we know through the research that variability in training is key to helping you, you know, extend to the next level to get that new stimulus. So I'd never done this workout before and it hurt a lot, which suggested to me that, this was a new stimulus.
for the body and I think for a lot of people out there that are watching or listening, if you've done the 30-15s and you've done the sustained VO2, this is a really good one to consider for a new stimulus. let's, obviously the workout that's in the paper, it's not practical really to make people just do 30-20s until they fall off the indoor trainer or out on the road or wherever it might be. So you took the protocol and you created...
you know, in an interval session, which I did, which we'll put as overlay on Training Pigs Virtual, that people can actually do. how did you dissect it and turn it into a workout? This podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. If you're a recreational or amateur road cyclist and you're stuck on a frustrating performance plateau, feeling like you need some guidance, but you're not quite ready to dive straight into one-to-one coaching, at the RCA we've created something called the 12 Week.
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Ryan Thomas (06:58.926) Yeah, so was actually Carter Beddell, one of the RCA coaches who brought this paper to my attention and he created the session and we worked on it together to try and figure out. He came to me and said, this is really cool. I've created something. Can you do it just to test it out? I did it. And originally we had same up to the point of 230 20s. So we didn't go to failure. So it was the three, two, one, 40, 30 second efforts. And it was around a 12 minute effort. So we used that and originally
we had it set three intervals. So I did it with three intervals and it knocked me for six. Like I got to the end of that and I was like, I was probably one of the hardest work out to ever done. So in my mind, I was like, I'm as an experienced writer myself, I was like, if I'm giving this to anyone who hasn't done proper VO2 work before, they're going to fall in a heap after it. And it's going to probably take a week to recover from it. It's not practical. So we kind of tailored it back a little bit. We stopped it once the...
interval got to 30 seconds. So there's only one 30 second effort at the end in the session that I give and it's only two intervals. So it's a lot, it's tailored back quite a bit to what the research said, but you're still getting, think we're gonna highlight the effort for most people if they do it in ERG mode at 110 to 120 % of critical power is what we try to get the on bit at. If you're doing that and you're keeping the power around 65, 70 % in the off periods, you're still getting a 10 to 12 minute effort above threshold.
Okay, so it's.
Cam Nicholls (08:27.254) So you're prescribing it in erg mode for people on the trainer?
Ryan Thomas (08:30.164) I don't like to do it in Erg personally, some people just like Erg mode because it's easy to execute. They don't have to think about it too much. So either or works. My preference is always non-Erg mode for anything in VO2, but some people it's just easier to do it in Erg mode.
Cam Nicholls (08:44.53) So let's lay out what the set looks like and I'll put my overlay of me doing it on the Training Pigs virtual. So the first rep is three minutes.
Ryan Thomas (08:53.358) First rep is three minutes. I think you had it set at 115 % of threshold. Yep. So that's a good place to start. 110, probably if you haven't done much VO2 work and you're trying this out, 110 is a good starting point. You can always increase it in the second rep. Two minutes. Two minute effort.
Cam Nicholls (09:07.788) Okay, and then the recovery, two minutes, then the next, which is the one that hurt the most. That's the one that really hurt. Your recovery after a three minute VO2 effort and then the two minutes really not at recovery and then back to two minutes. Yeah, that last sort of 90 seconds, I remember it. And then the recovery after that, all the, yeah, and then.
Ryan Thomas (09:25.762) Yeah, yeah, it hurts.
80 seconds, a 60 second effort, then 40 second recovery, 40 second effort, 30 second recovery, 30 second effort.
Cam Nicholls (09:37.078) Okay, so there is if you want to do it, but the question is, when should you be doing it? Because I think the thing about these videos is people go, that's interesting. I wouldn't mind trying that. And then they'll try it for a couple of weeks and then move on. And maybe it was the wrong time to try it. Two weeks is probably not long enough to give it a fair shot. So when should people be thinking about implementing this into their training regime and how long should they do it for?
Ryan Thomas (09:59.064) You want to do it pretty close to when you want to be peaking or your target event. So within that six week window of that event or target or whatever you're trying to achieve. Yeah. Yeah. Using it in within that period. So starting it pretty solid and then tapering it going into, but within that six weeks, yeah, you could do this session once a week for the six week period going into an event. Yeah. There's a good and then doing other stuff around it obviously, but you use it with that or you could interchange it with another type of interval. So what I like to do instead of giving one
This just one every week for six weeks in a row is give this one week and then a different type of VO2 effort the next week and go back to that one. So change your stimulus every couple of weeks, but you don't want to be doing this like 12 weeks out for an event because it's going to get you going pretty good. It's a type of interval that's going to peak your physiology because it's a lot of time above that 90 % of VO2 max. And it's going to really sharpen you up for a testing or a race or whatever it is. So you want to be careful about doing it too far out from whatever that goal is.
Cam Nicholls (10:58.252) Yeah, and if people are sort of curious as to what would come before this, we had a chat just before this one and that video will be live. So we'll link it up there. It's about periodising through the training zones. So make sure you spend plenty of time, you know, around base zone two work and sweet spot sub threshold before you start tackling this. Because if you do that work before you get to this workout, then this work out is going to yield better outcome.
Ryan Thomas (11:21.758) Yes, in my opinion, yes.
Cam Nicholls (11:24.194) Yep. Cool. All right. Thanks for your time, Ryan. Thanks, Cam. Much appreciated. And we'll catch everyone in next podcast.
Wed, 08 Apr 2026 - 11min - 80 - The Best Supplements for Cycling (latest 2026 research)
This episode provides a comprehensive review of supplementation in cycling performance, based on recent research from the UCI sports nutrition project. Cam Nicholls and RCA coach Ben Treble discuss food-first approaches, effective supplements like caffeine, creatine, beta alanine, nitrates, and more, emphasizing evidence-based choices for cyclists.
Research: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12912213/
AIS: https://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/supplements
Stanndards: https://stannards.com.au/ (podast sponsor)
Key Takeaways Prioritize whole foods for macro and micronutrients before supplements. Use the AIS framework to identify high-efficacy supplements (Group A). Caffeine can improve performance by 2-5% and should be dosed 3-6 mg/kg about an hour before effort. Sodium bicarbonate (bicarb) and beta alanine buffer muscle acidity, effective for high-intensity efforts. Nitrates from beetroot juice reduce oxygen cost of submaximal exercise, beneficial in hot conditions. Hyperhydration with glycerol or sodium can improve thermal regulation in long endurance events. Avoid unverified supplements; choose those with third-party testing and certification. Supplements like ketones currently show mixed results and are not recommended for performance enhancement.Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the episode and guest 00:26 The context of cycling performance and supplement discussion 01:28 Overview of the UCI sports nutrition project and key authors 02:53 Navigating supplement marketing noise and the food-first approach 03:43 The importance of macro and micronutrient intake from whole foods 04:49 Training on 100 grams of carbs per hour and its benefits 05:46 Using the AIS supplement framework to guide supplement choices 07:35 Key supplements in Group A: caffeine, creatine, bicarbonate, beta alanine, nitrates, hyperhydration, exogenous ketones 08:23 Caffeine: dosing, effects, and practical tips 12:24 Sodium bicarbonate: buffering capacity and application in high-intensity efforts 16:40 Beta alanine: muscle carnosine loading and effects 28:59 Nitrates from beetroot juice: reducing oxygen cost of exercise 33:27 Hyperhydration with glycerol and sodium: benefits for endurance in hot conditions 35:06 Exogenous ketones: current evidence and performance implications 39:07 Summary and practical advice on supplement strategy Transcript:Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA podcast designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined by RCA coach and science geek Ben Treble and we're in a hotel room in Sydney. We're here supporting the boys at the RCA Bikes Online boys at the Pro Velo. Ben, what are you doing?
Ben Treble (00:40.53) I'm filling in some big shoes from Ryan, our team manager in DS and playing the DS role while Ryan's on the pedals.
Cam Nicholls (00:47.458) Nice. And I'm here to try and make some content. So we thought we'd use the opportunity to get together for a couple of podcasts. And today we're to talk about a comprehensive review on supplementation in cycling performance that was released recently, February, 2026. And this was a paper that Ben brought to my attention, I think via Instagram story, I saw you share it. And I was like, that's pretty interesting. And it kind of sort of validates a lot of supplements that are
you know, we know that work, but also highlights an area that I think a lot of people tend to forget about. So Ben, you've looked at the paper in detail. What do you make of it?
Ben Treble (01:28.054) I love it. My caveat is, I'm, I'm, very biased on this one. So firstly, it's one paper out of, think there's 15 papers that are being slowly released. So they're not all released yet. And it's part of a much bigger project where the UCI commissioned essentially the world experts in all their different topics related to nutrition. And it's called the UCI sports nutrition project. And there are many, many papers on different topics about cycling. So.
Yeah. One of the papers is the sports nutrition paper. It's on the use of sport foods and supplements to improve performance in cycling. One of the key authors is Jamie Whitfield, who was a supervisor of mine when I did placement at a lab in Melbourne. cool. I hold him in very high respect. He's, he's much smarter than myself. I would think of him more of a biochemist, sports scientist actually, but he's brilliant. You know, of course, Burke was a big part of that paper. Who's probably one of the top.
I would argue the number one sports nutritionist in the world. contribution to both research and practice within Australia in a global context is phenomenal. So very good paper, highly recommend. We will link it that paper, I'm sure, for people to have a look in the potty. So what are we doing about this paper? Well, they just really want to dig into, as you all know, you probably all get bombarded on media from a hundred million companies about take this supplement, take this, take oxygenated water. There's so much noise.
Out there, it's difficult for people to navigate what actually works.
Cam Nicholls (02:57.422) I'm in an ad actually promoting AgeMade. guess a lot of people would have seen that ad.
Ben Treble (03:02.319) I have received this head many times. I'm in my mid thirties and I've received the age mate.
Cam Nicholls (03:07.926) Yeah, sorry about that. It's a good supplement though. I did my blasts, my bloods it worked for me. So, okay. I stand by that one. Okay.
Ben Treble (03:14.222) Cook me up and I'll try it. Back on topic. I'm not talking about age made in my list today, just for the reference. Sorry for your plug. What this paper does is it tries to really break down what's important and what's not for people. And I think the first point that we really want to get across to the audience today is you should really try to have a food first approach, which means try to get your macros and micronutrients from, you know, like
natural whole foods first.
Cam Nicholls (03:45.582) Feats any supplement, hands down, every day of the
Ben Treble (03:48.152) Every time the bio availability of all the important things you really need from whole foods is just so much more important than worrying about spending too much money on supplements. Yep. Good. We can agree on the first point. Did everybody hear that? Yeah. Food first approach. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (04:03.918) The last training block I did for Grafton to Indoveral, which is a big bike race here in Australia last year, was the first time I properly did train on 100 grams of carbs per hour. And I know that's not necessarily whole food, that's a lot of sugar, but it's part of the macro nutrient approach. And I'd never trained so well in my entire life and I'd never recovered so well as well. Like for example, a five hour ride, hard, on a Saturday.
used to leave me like in pieces in the afternoon, fatigued, tired, grumpy, but training at 100 grams per hour, I was recovering better, I was sleeping better, I wasn't grumpy, and then the adaptation was better, and then you can take that adaptation to the next training session. So just this is one small example of getting my macronutrients right for training, made such a big difference.
Ben Treble (04:49.198) Yeah, I can think of a new RCA athlete of mine and we've spent, you know, the first few weeks not even talking about power or doing fancy VO2 intervals. The entire focus has been how do we get you eating more food on the bike? And that's what's making the difference. Trying to slowly build up the ability and experimenting with different foods. Is it bars, gels, liquids? What works for her and her stomach?
and what's going to help her get more fuel in to do the effort. There's no point doing the efforts until we know we can get the right fuel in. So yeah, big point on that, but we're not here to talk about that right now. We're here to talk about the juicy stuff, which is supplements. So, the first part of this conversation is what is this paper reference and what do I tell all my athletes when we first talk about food and supplements? And that's probably one of the best resources out there. Firstly, because it's free.
You know, I would argue, you know, they don't have any bias because they're not leaning towards any certain company. It's published from the Australian Institute of Sport. So the AIS has a supplement framework and there's an entire team of sports scientists and researchers who are digging through the research, doing their own research. And they publish a framework where they're grading certain supplements based on their efficacy. Like does the supplement do what it's supposed to do?
If they claim it has a certain performance benefit, does it actually do this? How strong is the body of research behind it that then supports that? How safe is it? And what are the downsides or the risks from an antidoping perspective or a health risk, health hazards? And they factor all that in and then they grade it. Is it an A group, which would be like the highest level? You know, this is the group that you can pretty confidently say it will do what it says it does. It's safe to take and.
That's where your focus should be on this group, group A. Group B would be there's some evidence for it. It's interesting and we're keeping an eye on it. And you'll see supplements move between these groups as the research bodies grow. So an interesting one would be, you know, for example, nitrates, beetroot, that used to be a B group supplement. And as the research has grown to support it more,
Ben Treble (07:06.126) It's been lifted to a group A. Supplements. That's just, they're regularly updating this framework. So I tell people to keep an eye on it. And then you've got group C and D, which are essentially supplements you should ignore in my eyes. I would just check the list because maybe you want to try something that you've got a marketing ad for. And if you see it in these groups, maybe it's a good sign to just keep an eye on it, but not touch it yet. So today we're going to focus on, we're going to talk about quite a few different supplements that are within the group A category. So I'm just going to...
wrap them off real quick. The ones that we care about. Caffeine, creatine, bicarb, that includes sodium citrate, beta alanine, nitrates, hyperhydration, that's through glycerol, and then exogenous ketones are added to the list. That is a B group supplement. I've just put it there because I know it's a hot top.
Cam Nicholls (07:54.866) Interesting and it's relatively new in comparison to the other ones as well. So there's a fair chance it might end up at the top of the tree, would you say? okay, interesting, I already saw that.
Ben Treble (08:02.67) My view is it won't. Well, there's multiple papers now across different sports that show it actually has a detrimental effect on endurance performance. Interesting. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (08:17.102) Okay, alright, maybe that's a rabbit hole for another day. We'll leave it at that. I like that, we're on the caffeine right now.
Ben Treble (08:23.672) I'm on number three for the day already and let's, it's just after nine and we've got races starting at just before lunch. So hot topic. Let's kick it off on caffeine, Ken. I don't think we need to a lot of time on this, but caffeine does what it says it does. know, caffeine at the end of the day, the primary mechanism it's via the central nervous system. It reduces your perceived effort and fatigue whilst improving focusing and pacing strategies.
What I've done for this conversation is I've had a look at what was put out in the UCI paper and I've gone and, you know, cross-checked it with what's in the AIS framework from a dosing perspective. Just as a heads up to listeners, the UCI paper is, from my eyes, is fairly focused on acute dosing. Whereas if you go into the AIS framework, they often provide acute and chronic dosing strategies for these supplements. So I would actually tell people, if you see something in the UCI paper you're interested in,
go check it out in the AIS framework where you can get, you know, they have these great PDF infographics on each supplement with dosing strategies and guides and things to watch out for. So I'm just
Cam Nicholls (09:31.406) Just conscious a lot of our listeners are European, USA, Canada. So the AIS, which is the Australian Institute of Sport, would you say that their guidelines here would be similar to that in the US and Canada and Europe? Do they tend to be aligned or have you seen discrepancies in the past?
Ben Treble (09:49.8) Not that I've done a lot of digging, but of all of my American and my European athletes I work with, none of them have ever seen anything like the AIS framework before. Okay. And they don't know of anything in their home countries. Okay. With that available. So whether they hold that information internally, because they think of it as IP or a competitive advantage, would be my guess that they probably do. And they might provide it to certain athletes and teams or performance staff.
But it's probably internal only, they don't publicly share it. Okay. So then, yeah, we don't know if it's the same or not. Okay.
Cam Nicholls (10:23.918) guess AIS1 though can be trusted because we all know Australians are good at sport. We know what we're doing so it's a good reference point.
Ben Treble (10:31.502) Yeah. I think we're an over performer in the winter sports as well. There you go. For the size and not being a winter country. Off topic. Back to caffeine. We'll go through this one quick. Cause I think it's, everyone knows caffeine does do what it does. It works well. Main things to be aware of the dose is probably anywhere from three to six milligrams per kilogram of body mass. Ideally you take it around an hour before your exercise, or if you have a longer event, you can stagger it through the event. So you don't have a massive dose.
AIS recommends a max of three milligrams. Caffeine used to be a banned substance on the anti-doping water list. It is no longer a banned substance, but it's just, you you need to keep an on that. This gets updated every year. So who knows if in two years they'd ban it again. Unlikely, but yeah. Other than that, you just probably need to be aware of if you take too much excessive use gives you anxiety, jitters and sleep disruptions, which most people are aware of. yeah.
Cam Nicholls (11:24.194) Sounds like May every day.
Ben Treble (11:25.87) What I thought was cool, I've never actually looked at it, but they do reference in the paper, you know, the expected performance improvement is from two to 5%. And that's been proven across multiple sports and distances. So caffeine guys, if you're not taking it, second point on caffeine I would have, I typically get my athletes to switch from coffee in terms of racing to, we call it anodos here in Australia, which would be caffeine pills. So you know exactly how much you're taking for your race if you want to take.
50 milligrams at half an hour before the line and then halfway through the race, you take the other half, whatever you want your dosing to be. Typically large people take a little bit more, but yeah, I would recommend that you switch over to pills because you know, a standard cappuccino, the range and how much caffeine you get from that varies massively. So you don't actually know how much you're taking. True. Let's move on to probably one of the supplements that Kem is a big fan of. And I'm a big fan of as well.
setting by car. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (12:26.67) buffering the lactate. Yeah. Just grind at threshold all day long.
Ben Treble (12:31.148) Yeah. Yeah. So this one's a good one. Sodium bicarb. Cause one it's cheap. It's easily available and accessible. Everyone's supermarket has this within the same group is sodium citrate. They're essentially the same thing for the point of this conversation. What does it do? It's, it improves your buffering capacity of the hydrogen ions. So it slows down the rate of acidity and the shifting pH as the intensity goes up. So at the end of the day, what is it doing? It delays your exercise induced.
acidosis during high intensity efforts. The research shows that the performance benefits are in that like one up to 60 minute efforts, but the research is a lot less supportive the longer you go outside of that range. So when we talk about road racing or a Gran Fondo event where it's anywhere from two to four or five hours, the efficacy for using bicarb gets a lot lower.
Interesting. So would I use it for a road race? Probably not, personally. Would I use it for a crit race or if you do any track cycling or sprint work, would I use it in training for a sprint session? Yes. So is it worth using in training, even if it's not going to be used in your race? Potentially. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (13:46.54) I think there's a bit of a gash prone issues that people can experience with this one as well. They need to be aware of. So like slowly dose it in kind of thing.
Ben Treble (13:54.638) Yeah. So from a dosing and a risks perspective, the biggest risk on bicarb is gastro issues. I mean, at the end of the day, it's almost like the more you can take the better. But at some point you get significant gastro issues, which will stop you performing. So there's a little bit of trial and error for individuals and you can progressively, you know, train yourself to take more to reduce those gut issues. Another tactic you can do is some companies will sell bicarb in pills.
even better and harder to find is they sell it in a slow release capsule. Yeah. Okay. So if you take bicarb, you know, just from the supermarket in a powder and you mix it in water or however you want to take it, it tastes terrible. If you can put it into a slow release capsule, it's probably going to help with the gastro issues. The loading protocol is typically one to three hours pre-exercise, two to 300 milligrams per kilogram of body mass. The chronic dose is big.
which would be 500 milligrams per kilogram for five days. Wow. So big chronic loading dose. They also recommend that if you do that acute dose that you can either take it with fluids or take it with a carb meal. And that will help with the gastro issues. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (15:10.38) I know what got me onto it. I was at the Tour de France behind the scenes, 2024, Visma Leesa Bike and Nathan Van Hoede, something like that, who I can't pronounce his surname. He's a very good Belgian rider. He actually had a heart attack the previous year. So he was racing with Visma. He was just in the car. But he was telling me that the number one supplement that the team was using at the time that everyone loved was the Morton gel mix by carb. And I was like,
Pro athletes are saying that it's the best supplement that they're using at the time. I need to get onto this. And think there was a famous scene of a, I think it's, don't know the writer's name. He was the Canadian world champ though, in a road race, actually eating bicarb because their races are like five, six hours, like halfway through the race, having a bicarb gel mix and eating it out of a tub during a race. obviously it's held in high regard, that elite level bicarb.
Ben Treble (16:05.698) Yep. I mean, it works. Right. And at of the day, one of the biggest things that often holds people back during high intensity racing is, you know, their ability to clear lactate, right. And reduce acidosis. The longer you can hold that back, it's going to give you a performance gain. So cheap, accessible, safe. Just have to do a bit of trial and error for gastro issues and with your loading protocol. yeah, sodium bicarb is a reall
Wed, 01 Apr 2026 - 40min - 79 - FTP Stuck? Follow this Simple Framework
This episode explores a research-based strategy to boost FTP for cyclists by focusing on physiological system training and periodisation. It emphasises proper zone training, avoiding overtraining, and implementing structured blocks to achieve sustainable performance improvements RCA 12 Week Custom Plan: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/cycling-plan-custom/ Research Paper referenced: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9299127/ key topics
FTP and critical power explained Importance of physiological system training Periodisation and training blocks Research insights from running studies Common mistakes in cycling training Structured training plans and recovery Training zones and their physiological basis Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the RCA Podcast 00:25 Understanding FTP and Its Importance 01:42 Common Mistakes in Training for FTP 03:14 The Role of Training Zones 04:42 Periodization in Training 05:39 Research Insights on Training Protocols 08:12 Implementing a Structured Training Plan 10:17 Blending Training Intensities 12:30 General Framework for Periodization 13:06 Conclusion and Next Steps Transcript:Cam Nicholls (00:01.804) Welcome to the RCA podcast designed for recreational and amateur road cyclists with a focus on performance. We dive into cycling training, nutrition, strength training for cyclists and even bike fitting tips all designed to help you train smarter, ride faster and hopefully tear your mates legs off. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.
Ryan Thomas (00:25.313) you
Cam Nicholls (00:26.606) So welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. So for those audio listeners, please excuse any visual references. Today, we're be talking about a simple way to boost FTP. We're not talking about a specific workout as such, we're talking about an overall overarching strategy. But before we talk about this, which is research-based.
Let's talk about what is FTP. For some people, particularly if you're new to cycling, you may still be trying to figure out what FTP is. So, Ryan, we don't actually use FTP at the RCA. We use critical power where you can get your FTP. But for those who want to know what FTP is, how you best describe it.
Ryan Thomas (01:02.062) It's essentially the maximum effort that you can sustain without going over your limit. And that can be anywhere from 40 to 60 minutes, depending on what sort of testing you use to find it. But essentially we're trying to find a maximal steady
Cam Nicholls (01:15.918) And we don't typically test for 40 to 60 minutes do we? We test for 20 minutes or there's a ramp test or there's an eight minute protocol. There's all sorts of variations to get your FTP. So we don't have to send somebody out and yeah, ride as hard as you can for an hour, but it's not the be all and end all, but it's important, particularly if you're trying to work out your training zones, which is what we're going to talk about shortly and target physiological systems to understand your FTP. And it's also, know, it's like we're
You know, there's a gym setting behind us when people go to the gym. What's the thing that you want to promote the most? Well, how much can you bench? I guess MTP is very similar to that. So that's why people like to talk about it. When people are trying to increase their FTP for whatever reason, Ryan, where do you feel like they go wrong?
Ryan Thomas (01:57.976) specific threshold testing to begin with. So setting your zones properly is the first.
Cam Nicholls (02:02.7) They're an average off Garmin or Strava or one of these apps.
Ryan Thomas (02:06.67) Yeah, and then most of the time I see people are training to either a threshold that's too high and it just burns them out. So you need to have that threshold set lower, even if it's a number that you might think is lower than what you want, it's accurate. Okay. you're doing the proper testing. So have that setting first. The other point is that people aren't training a physiological system. They're just training. They might go and do bunch rides or they might do a sporadic, the threshold effort one week and a VO2 effort the other week and then a tempo effort. And it's like, well, what are you actually targeting? There's no...
You need a physiological target. You need to train that physiological system to see changes over time. So minimum sort of stimulus that you want to do is like, when the training peaks is set this, there's their chronic training load is based on a 42 day rolling period. when we did our training peaks university course, and we saw the training peaks in person when they came to Australia and the whole theory is that.
any one physiological stimulus, takes about six weeks to see a change. You need to do that for six weeks. And if you're doing random stuff or bunch rides, it's no one physiological strong stimulus. It's just random little bits here and there that aren't really enough to see meaningful change.
Cam Nicholls (03:14.158) And as the inquiry guy at the RCA still, you know, speak to lot of recreational and amateur road cyclists before they join the RCA. And the biggest thing is just training too hard too often. So it's like, it sounds so simple, but it's just the most common. It's like, I want to increase my fitness. So I'll ride harder and I'll ride more and they'll end up, you know, not only overstimulated by working all their systems, as you said, but they're also just end up in a fatigue state.
Ryan Thomas (03:37.984) Yeah, usually the first thing they do is rest and take the intensity up.
Cam Nicholls (03:41.344) Yeah, have a week off. People are I can't do that. It's like, no, just trust us. Yeah. What happens? They freshen up. So targeting the training zones. Why would we want it? Cause I think when people think about zone training, they just think about, well I should do a zone two ride today and let's just do zone two. And cause it's, heard about it online and it's, know, zone two it's space fitness, but it's actually rather than thinking of it as like zones, it's more like you just said, physiological systems. like why have the seven training zones?
Ryan Thomas (04:09.518) That's literally why they were created is to make meaningful change of what's happening physiologically.
So if you go back to when the zones were first created by Andy Colgan and Joe Friel and all those people who created, started training peaks and all the specific training physiology, was like, they knew these markers, right? They knew lactate threshold. knew like there was a fat max and a steady state area. they were like, well, how can we make this deliverable to people who don't know much about it? So they needed zones and described zones and to set training in these areas around based on physiology.
Cam Nicholls (04:42.86) And what we're going to talk about as an overarching strategy is, you know, periodizing through the zones. And what is periodization? It's taking blocks and increments and improving your fitness over time. And then obviously taking a step back. But when a lot of people think of that, they don't necessarily think of it as when I increase my intensity and volume, have a specific focus on a specific physiological system or a specific zone. So before we talk about the details of what that could look like, there is a bit of research in this space.
that not in cycling but in running that looked at this.
Ryan Thomas (05:16.002) Yeah, so they were looking at, it was a short time trial, I was a 5K running time trial, but it's still 5K still in endurance. They looked at two types of protocols. went from polarised to pyramidal, was the first training protocol they used over a 16 week period. And then the other protocol they compared it against was pyramidal to polarised. So they were doing a lot of three, zone three, four, two, and then they went into really hard stuff, polarised training.
Cam Nicholls (05:39.598) And as a breakdown for those that may not be familiar with those two methods, Polarized is 80 % like Zone 2, like base training relatively easy and 20 % quite hard, sort of over threshold and above. And Pyramidal is more of a 60-20-10 split, so 60 % easy base, 20 % in the middle and 10 % hard.
Ryan Thomas (06:03.31) Yeah, that's pretty close. So they looked at that protocol and the other protocol and they found that the best protocol to see a change in this particular cohort was going from pyramidal to polarize. So going from, I would call it moderately hard training in that under threshold predominantly. then you're going into polarized training, which is really hard and really easy. And they saw that's, that is the protocol that saw the biggest change in time or performance in that 5k run.
Yes, we're talking about running, but it's kind of a basis for what a lot of coaches have used for forever is just using base fitness, going through the zone, zone three, four, progressing in the threshold and above threshold, the closer you get to your target or your target event.
Cam Nicholls (06:46.296) This podcast is brought to you by the Road Cycling Academy. If you're a recreational or amateur road cyclist and you're stuck on a frustrating performance plateau, feeling like you need some guidance, but you're not quite ready to dive straight into one-to-one coaching, at the RCA we've created something called the 12-week custom plan, which we believe would be your perfect next step. It starts off with an upfront deep dive call with your coach who will understand your goals, your riding preferences, what your not negotiable rides are.
and where you want to go, then they'll create a fully tailored 12-week custom plan that is supported over the 12-week period. We believe it's the perfect intermediate step, giving you a taste of working with a coach and experiencing a customized plan without committing to full coaching. Our writers are seeing real results too, and you can go to our Google reviews to see this. Marvin recently shaved over 30 minutes off his graft into Imburel time from doing the 12-week custom plan.
Adam gained 20 watts on his FTP in 12 weeks and 40 watts on his five minute power. And we have riders completing rides that they've failed in previous attempts like Peaks Challenge, all from doing this 12 week custom plan. So if you're ready to break through, head to the roadcyclingacademy.com in the menu system, you'll see our 12 week custom plan and take the first step towards that next level performance. Now let's get back to the podcast.
So this is when I actually worked with you many years ago and we started to do it. was like, I've actually, it was a new stimulus for me. So sometimes, you know, these things are just a new stimulus for people. And by no means are we saying this is the silver bullet to increase FTP, but it's a really easy way to consider a framework on how to increase your FTP. And that is when I started working with you, I like, all right, Cam, I'd done zone two training before, like a lot of it, you know, under the polarised method of 80-20. So I'm going to spend a lot of time on in zone two, but I'd never spent.
a focus block on tempo work, which is zone three. So we might've spent three to four weeks on tempo and might've played around a little bit with sweet spot and some threshold, but really sort of got that zone under control. When I say under control, like my rate of perceived exertion all of a sudden was lower for the same output. My heart rate stopped drifting as much in a tempo effort and started to reduce in terms of my average heart rate for that particular workout. And then we moved up to the next zone and we mastered that. And then we moved up to the next zone.
Cam Nicholls (09:11.116) and mastered that. And obviously when I say moved up to the next side, VO2 max, you're not doing VO2 max all the time, are you? No, every session. So how would you, for somebody listening at home that might think, okay, this makes a lot of sense spending, you know, two to three week or maybe four week blocks going through the zones. Once you start bringing in a bit of tempo work and then you may be moved to a bit of subthreshold work and VO2, how do you blend it in so you're not like fatiguing yourself?
Ryan Thomas (09:37.772) Yeah, so I guess this whole, this protocol is good for when I start coaching someone. This is the first process we go through because when you start with someone as a coach, don't, I can see what you've done before, but I don't know you've done the proper training to get there. So this is the first thing and then you can do other areas after, but if you're beginning in training and you don't know where to start, this is the exact way you should start.
Cam Nicholls (09:59.566) Yeah, and keeping in mind 95 % of people that come to you in that basket of training too hard too often, so they're fatigued. even if they're not fatigued, they're one of the, know, one out of a hundred, it's just a robot and they just keep going. But even if they are in that category, it's still always good just to back it off a little bit.
Ryan Thomas (10:17.294) That is, yeah. So it's a great strategy and what we, what I try to use and what we try to use within our off the shelf programs and try to develop within the RCA coaches is we look at, think of our three to four week block. So generally we use a step ladder approach of every three to four weeks we have an easier week. So in that three to four weeks over 12, 16 week period, what are you actually working on? So that first, let's say for the example, you've just had a week off the bike. You've just had rest, you've reset, getting into the new season.
I've got four weeks of training. The first four weeks is going to be predominantly zone two work. You if you're riding five days a week, you're probably doing zone two three times a week. Okay. Or endurance three times a week. And then the other two days you're doing some short tempo work, slowly progressing and maybe doing some strength efforts or something neuromuscular to try and work that energy system. Just keep it you're at it, low fatiguing. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (11:05.358) I know a lot of our members have what we call the not negotiable rides, so you can still have a ride during the week where you can just go out and rip it and do whatever. Have some fun.
Ryan Thomas (11:13.39) Yeah, so bunch rides are always included. We always want to keep it fun and sensible. So that's the first week, four weeks. And then the next four weeks, you're probably looking at doing three intensity sessions in that week. And one of those can be a bunch ride. The other two sessions, you're looking at tempo or sweet spot or low threshold area, trying to work on that energy system for three or four weeks. And you've been working on it a little bit in that first four weeks as well. there's like, there's six to eight weeks there where you're working that energy system.
And then after that block, you're probably looking at scattering in a bit of sweet spot, VO2 and threshold. So we're not going to do VO2 three times a week for four weeks because that's going to hurt for someone who hasn't done much VO2 yet. So you've sprinkled in a bit of VO2 once a week and do threshold the other session and you're bunch ride. So you're trying to look at if you're riding five times a week.
Once you've got that bass under control for six weeks, whatever that bass period looks like or foundation period looks like, you're doing three rides where you're focusing on quality intensity and then two endurance zone two specific work. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (12:12.172) Okay, and if you, as a general blanket, if you put a timeframe on, if someone wanted to periodize through the zones and start with zone two and work their way through, how long would you be spending? 12 weeks, 14 weeks, 16 weeks, 20 weeks? no, it depends on the individual, but everyone wants a tangible takeaway.
Ryan Thomas (12:30.198) If you're starting from scratch, I'd say 16 weeks is a good mark and then you probably should have a rest. Like have a week where you reset. Yeah, around 16 weeks is usually a good mark. You can peak pretty good in 12 weeks and then you maintain for that four weeks and sharpen or you're coming into an event for example that's 16 weeks away. then you have rest. Yeah, and rest for a week and then do the same thing. Another 16 weeks is usually what I like to do. And if we're getting past that 16 week mark, we kind of flag it with the member and say,
All right, we're weeks into a training block. How are you feeling? Do you feel like you need a rest? Do feel like you can keep going? So it's talking and communicating there as well.
Cam Nicholls (13:06.37) Yeah, okay. And of course, this is a general framework. There are nuances. So people are training for a specific event. Obviously there's specificity that comes into play and a whole bunch of other nuances. So as a general framework, I think it's just easy for people to go, okay, there are my seven or six or five, whatever you're looking at. We use seven at the RCA training zones. I'm going to spend three weeks on here and then I'm going to move up here.
and then I'm gonna move up here. And what the workouts look like specifically, that's a rabbit hole for another day. Yeah, exactly. So thanks for your time, Ryan. Much appreciated. We'll catch everyone in the next podcast.
Wed, 25 Mar 2026 - 13min - 78 - Why We Started a Domestic Race Team (RCA BikesOnline)
Summary
This podcast features the RCA's Founder (Cam Nicholls) & Head Coach (Ryan Thomas); discussing the journey of starting an elite domestic cycling team, the challenges faced, sponsorship strategies, team dynamics, and season highlights. Gain insights into the operational, financial, and community aspects of building a successful domestic cycling team.
Team & Podcast sponsor: https://onekloudx.com.au/
RCA Supporter kit: https://shorturl.at/5axJb
Takeaways
A clear budget of $60-65K is essential for a competitive team. Community and personal growth are core values for RCA. Managing multiple roles in a team is challenging but rewarding. Winning Melbourne to Warrnambool in the first season exceeded expectations.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Team Background 01:50 Funding and Sponsorship Strategies 04:03 Team Values: Personal Growth and Community 05:57 Challenges of Managing a Cycling Team 07:59 Rider Selection and Team Culture 10:51 Budget Surprises and Kit Expenses 13:02 Season Goals and Race Expectations 14:53 Season Highlights and Wins 16:47 Impact on Rider Confidence and Future Goals 18:55 Closing Remarks and Gratitude for Sponsors
Cam Nicholls (00:00.078) So welcome back to the RCA podcast, where today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas, who's also the team manager of RCA Bikes Online. We're in the middle of season. There's lots going on in the boat. But I've roped him in for a podcast because I wanted to talk about, don't know people are curious, how does the team come about? How much does it cost? What are the surprises? What are the benefits?
Ryan Thomas (00:11.359) So busy.
Cam Nicholls (00:27.15) winning Melbourne to Warner Wars just happened on the weekend. So that was a good one. yeah, just wanted to, because you're at the cold face, you know, I'm just the guy that's, you know, helping bring in some of the funding of our sponsors, which we're very grateful for. But, you know, what does it look like? So first question I had for you, Ryan, is how did it all come about? Starting a Pro Velo team.
Ryan Thomas (00:51.278) Yeah, we were in, we were at TDU in 20, start of 2025 and we think a couple of, a couple of you were talking to a couple of brands and they were talking about the Pro Velo and then just kind of sparked, sparked your interest. And we sat down for a beer at TDU and said, what can we do this? Will you do it? And I was like, yeah, well, I'm kind of already like, I was helping out a team at the time, Tandem Co in Brisbane, and we did a couple of, a couple of.
Cam Nicholls (01:17.61) like a state team.
Ryan Thomas (01:18.926) Yeah, stay team. did Tour of Tassie the year before with big success. And then we did Q2 in the first year of the Pro Velo. We won teams class and finished fourth and sixth on GC. So it was a big success. So I had a bit of experience there and kind of what it would take. Yeah, I was pretty keen, actually. was like, oh, is like scratches the itch for me in terms of the high performance.
Bike team, I love being a part of the team and it's just good fun going away with the boys for a weekend and getting involved in big races.
Cam Nicholls (01:50.638) Yeah, although the way the Pro Velo is these days, it's not just every other weekend, it's every single weekend back to back to back. Which we're finding out, or you're finding out is quite intense. yeah, off the back of that discussion, you know, I went away and looked for some money. You told me how much budget you thought we needed for a team, which was...
Ryan Thomas (02:10.862) Yeah, I did a few. The Pro Velo put out a, before the Pro Velo started, they sent out like a document saying what roughly what the budget would be. Which was around a hundred thousand. But that was with bike expenses and a lot of product and a lot of stuff that we didn't really need in there. So I went back and paid it back and looked at, we're probably looking at around 35 to $40,000 for direct expenses for flights, ACOM.
staff, all of the stuff that happens around the actual event. And then you're probably looking at another 24 expenses depending on what sponsors we could get and paying for the entry for the series and some care and whatever, all the other stuff. So I was thinking around 60, 65,000 is what I think that was the goal I said to you was if we can get 60 to 65, we can make it work. we get any more than that, then it's a bonus and we can help out other areas.
Cam Nicholls (03:08.62) Yep, so then I put together a little proposal took it to some brands that I've been able to establish relationships with through, you know, having my fat head on YouTube for a number of years and Yeah, cut a long story short. We're very grateful for you know, having some major sponsors and some minor sponsors. I won't go through them all Right now but you know particular, you know bikes online coming on board with the with the polygons. Yeah, huge pretty big deal creative carbon wheels
Not only provided the wheels, but also the bars. We've got Insta360, so we're capturing some pretty cool footage with their cameras. Asseoma Power Pedals and Prungo, Red Light Therapy Device. They're probably the biggest sponsors and some minor ones. I'm super grateful for all of them. But I managed to secure the funding and then I'm like, are we really gonna do this? Because it's funny when you know
Ryan Thomas (04:03.96) Thanks.
Cam Nicholls (04:08.674) Like I'm 44 now and I've made lots of mistakes over my time thinking things aren't gonna be as much effort as they are. So now I'm always like, okay, if you think it's gonna be a big effort, times it by 10. And that's probably what it's gonna be like, which is what I did with this. And I'm like, why are we creating this team? That was like the big question when we sat down, when we were going through the RCA's core values. And we worked out our core values.
as a business and there was two in particular where I was like, actually, now this team actually aligns quite nicely with what our values are at the RCA, the Road Cycling Academy. So one of them is personal growth. So we want all our members and our staff to be able to achieve personal growth through the RCA. And while this isn't so much a membership-based thing, it's more of a staff-based thing. You're getting some personal growth, learning opportunities as the head coach of the RCA through the team.
We've got Dylan Proctor Parker, who's our community manager, who's got the opportunity to race in a Pro Velo cycling team this year, and that's giving him opportunities and personal growth. And Craig Wiggins, our social media manager, he's coming back for one final show to see if he can take out a sprint in maybe Sydney this weekend is a chance. Q Tour, he's a smokey. So personal growth opportunities for RCA staff, but also
Ryan Thomas (05:22.69) Yeah, Sydney or Q2,
Cam Nicholls (05:30.36) from a community perspective, I felt like the team could help connect the RCA community a little bit more by having somebody to follow and cheer on, turn on the Melbourne to Warrnambool on the weekend and there's the RCA. I loved how Sal, one of our members, the next day went and wore RCA at his crit and won his crit and then he tagged RCA race team. So, know.
the brand being out on the road and connecting our community, I think it's done a really good job at that. And that's what we thought it might do, and it's proving to be the case. So yeah, when we stepped into this, why are we doing the team? Well, personal growth and community. So the season started, we're midway through. What's surprised you the most so far?
Ryan Thomas (06:20.312) Just the amount of admin it takes to coordinate with riders and booking fights and accommodation and organizing logistics at tours. We've only done one or two tours so far, but I've also realized that trying to be a rider, a team owner and a manager is challenging. Trying to juggle three hats or put three hats on at a race is probably too hard and I probably won't do it again next season. I would probably just try and focus, put one hat on and focus on that.
That's been the biggest challenge so far, would say, is trying to, yeah, can't be a rider.
Cam Nicholls (06:55.528) Just be clear, you are, you are ricing as well.
Ryan Thomas (06:58.402) Yes, I am racing. Yeah. So not training too much to do those races, but I wanted to be involved in the team and it's good fun. I still love racing my bike. Not at the level I once was, but still good fun to be there and be a part of the team and to fill out a roster. Our first year, I kind of wanted to need five riders to start each round without penalty within the pro velo as part of part of their regulation. trying to field five to six at each round. So that was kind of the main.
go with myself racing.
Cam Nicholls (07:29.102) And maybe just taking a step back. Before we continue with the podcast, I wanted to thank one of our team sponsors, One Cloud X, a company that's headquartered in the Gold Coast, Queensland, but they have a national presence and they provide software solutions to small to medium businesses that need support with financial management, planning and budgeting, advanced manufacturing, warehouse management, supply chain optimization and analytics. They also specialize in multi-entity and operationally complex
environments across manufacturing, distribution, construction, education, and services. And they go beyond core enterprise resource planning solutions like NetSuite and Epicore, which they do provide. But on top of that, they're layering automation, warehouse management solutions, and AI enabled workflows to drive measurable operational outcomes. They're also a supporter of local Australian cycling, and we're very grateful for that. So if you're a...
Small to medium sized business in need of what I've just described. Please check out One Cloud X and we'll drop a link to their business in the podcast description. Now, back to the podcast. How did you get the writers? Because obviously, we had that discussion. Yep, we're gonna go ahead. And then you had, you kind of already been chatting with writers. You had your own network. So how did the writers come about?
Ryan Thomas (08:51.642) Yeah, so I get the a bit of it's not wasn't our main goal, but we are a coaching company at the end of the day. So we wanted to either coach the riders or be within the staff. So that was that was kind of my first priority was right. I coach a few riders and know quite a few riders that wanted to coach as well within the Brisbane cycling scene. to two main goals that I wanted was they need need to be able to coach them or help them and they need to be good people. Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (09:19.99) No dickhead poll... Same as the Sydney Swans and the All Blacks?
Ryan Thomas (09:20.622) No dickhead policy. So a good group of guys in the first year was obviously going to be good bike riders because they're racing a lot and we're going to help them be good bike riders. But good people get a good group that are going to have fun on tour and that's going to see success.
Cam Nicholls (09:41.208) Did you, and also you mentioned earlier in the podcast, you had experience with Tandem and Co, which is a state-based team. So some of these writers are from Tandem.
Ryan Thomas (09:49.582) Yeah, so last year, myself, Josh Bajkoff, Matt Lambert, Brent Reese, were all part of tandem. So four of us. So they were involved in tandem. And I knew we raced really well together. I was the director at Q2I in 2025. But Matt finished fourth on GC. Brent finished top 10. And we won teams class with those riders. So I knew that they were good quality. it good experience.
Cam Nicholls (10:17.346) Dickheads. Although Brent's had a few strikes hasn't he?
Ryan Thomas (10:21.65) A good group of guys, a bit of banter and fun. That's what you want in the team, right? Yeah. Yeah, so I had a good foundation there within Queensland and then we had a new out, had four or five secured pretty quickly and then it was just about filling out the other two riders.
Cam Nicholls (10:37.026) Yeah, okay. Yeah, and look, you know, the team camp that we went on recently, you know, it's having a barbecue and a few beers, everyone gets along. It's a really good vibe. And it's a supportive vibe. No one's in it for themselves.
Ryan Thomas (10:51.662) Yeah, and it was interesting when we asked what the goals were of the riders and what they wanted to achieve out of the series. Pretty much everyone said, like, help the team succeed. So it wasn't like a lot of it's a team mentality. It's not like I want to, I need to win this race. So it's all for me. Everyone was like, I'll put my hand up and help you help the other riders succeed at the end of the day. So it wasn't, it's not a, there's no I in team.
copper mentality, it's everyone's there to race for themselves and for the team.
Cam Nicholls (11:24.396) Yep. And going back to, you know, the budgets and what's required, is there anything that surprised you there? Because there was one thing that surprised that sort of made me go, I never really thought about that until now.
Ryan Thomas (11:39.17) Yeah, a lot of the...
Cam Nicholls (11:40.686) to do with that thing hanging up behind us here.
Ryan Thomas (11:42.882) Yeah, lot of the... we didn't... I guess the assumption at the start was that we would get really good support with the kit brand, but that was one of the biggest things that we didn't quite...
Cam Nicholls (11:55.458) They must get hit up so much though I reckon. They must just be so fatigued of so many little teams going, you know, we'll represent you Brian, give us free kids.
Ryan Thomas (11:57.39) I think it's you.
Ryan Thomas (12:04.366) And it's such a high volume thing too, right? Like if you've got seven to ten riders who all need four to five, six pieces of kit, like there's hundreds of pieces of kit coming out of factory, then it actually costs a fair bit. yeah, we ended up paying, and I think this is the case with most teams in the Pro Velo, is that they pay a reduced, it's like, I don't know, 30 to 50 % off or its cost or whatever.
Cam Nicholls (12:27.118) We got a great deal through Jack Roo, which we're very proud of. We still wanted it all for free. Of course, you all do when you're trying to scrape together funds, but they dig it.
Ryan Thomas (12:29.166) Yeah, Jack, we're really helpful.
Ryan Thomas (12:36.91) Reach for the sky. Exactly, that's it. But yeah, we ended up spending, I think it's been $12,000 Australian dollars on kit so far. So that's a big chunk out of the budget that I'd kind of had it in the back of my mind that we may need to pay for it, but it wasn't planned upfront. luckily in the end we got a few extra minor sponsors that helped cover that as well through the actual RCA community, which was awesome.
Cam Nicholls (13:02.946) So we're halfway through the season. We've got Sydney this weekend. Then it's Grafton, then it's Q Tour. And then you can lie down in a coffin.
Ryan Thomas (13:12.067) Come awake? Can't have a holiday.
Cam Nicholls (13:14.158) What's the expectations for the rest of the season? I'll just give you my... I just thought it would be great to have a team to be in some breakaways, maybe make a podium. But it's nice to be in the mix for the first season. And it's funny on Saturday, Cam Kim, used to run Inform Team Insight Make, which was probably one of the biggest teams for good three years.
and they were in the NRS before it was called the Pro Velo for maybe five years. He rang me, because he was watching my Instagram stories, and he goes, did you just win Melbourne to Warrnambool? And I was like, yeah, like, can't believe it. He goes, do you know, we ran a team for five years and we could never win it. And you've just won it in your first season. Are you joking me? And that really put it into perspective for me because when you're in your first season, you're just kind of finding your way. You're not really thinking about it.
And it's probably, you know, having a team year on year where you probably start to sharpen your goals and what you want to achieve and races you want to win. Definitely. So that really put it into perspective. Like we could just, we could wrap up the team now and it'd be a successful season.
Ryan Thomas (14:26.99) 100%, yeah, 100%. Yeah, like to win the warning or the grafting, like the two big one day races, like they're arguably the hardest thing to do. I'd say if you spoke to anyone in the Pro Velo Peloton and they said, what races would you win? And they would choose either grafting or the warning. That's one of the ones because they're the most, it's like a one day race.
history, Everyone knows how hard those races are and they're both equally hard. And to win one, like, yeah, I guess my goal going into the season, I knew the capability of the riders, right? I knew that we were capable of getting a podium either in a stage or at the morning of the grafting if the right situation arose. But to win, to win something like the morning, like when I found out that Josh won, like I...
I was the reason I couldn't be at the warning because I was looking after my son.
Cam Nicholls (15:23.926) I you a photo of him being interviewed.
Ryan Thomas (15:25.996) Yeah, because the original story from the warning they put up all these standing winds and then they took it down and then they put up Josh wins because there's a fire photo finish Yeah, okay. I saw I saw the original Instagram story. No one else did so I was like nervous my second or first and then someone called me and told me that he wanted I saw a photo or refreshed and at the time I couldn't go because I was looking after my son that day my wife had to work and I couldn't I couldn't get around it so
My son was in his high chair, he was having a feed and someone told me he wanted, I'm like jumping and screaming and I'm sure the neighbours probably got noise complaining. I was absolutely gone ballistic. Yeah, absolutely over the moon. That Josh's ride was unbelievable but yeah, far exceeded our expectations in the first season.
Cam Nicholls (16:05.742) as you should.
Cam Nicholls (16:15.234) So, but what does that do for the confidence of him and the other writers? Because I feel like, you know, just teams that I've been in in the past, when somebody elevates themselves like that, it sort of elevates everybody else.
Ryan Thomas (16:27.18) Massive, yeah. I think it, honestly, I think it came off the back of Tassie and the end of Tassie. So Josh, specifically in Tassie in the first road race and even in the prologue under, he didn't meet his expectations. He was dropped 15 kilometres into the first road race in Tasmania.
Cam Nicholls (16:46.253) Yes.
Ryan Thomas (16:47.18) to come out the next week and win arguably the biggest race in Australia is huge. we, towards the end of that, the next day, so Josh was down, he was feeling bad, like he wasn't performing where he wanted to be. Then the next day, he rode across to the break with up the hilltop, rode across, helped Brent. Brent performed awesome, finished really good up the top of that mountain top. And it was like riding on a high. Everyone was really happy after that stage. Had a good crit, Dylan finished sixth in the crit.
And so we finished that tour on a high and it was like really positive. We're in the Moors, we were aggressive, we were racing. And when I dropped Josh at the airport on Friday going down to the morning, just like, the objective was getting the Moors, be aggressive. And I said to the boys at the end of Tassie, said that the more opportunities you get in those breakaways, it's just an odds game. the more times you do it, one will succeed eventually. You just do it and do it and do it and then it'll pay off one day and the odds will be in our favor. And morning was the day.
Cam Nicholls (17:44.386) Yeah, incredible. So yeah, the rest of the season, what are you thinking?
Ryan Thomas (17:50.124) Yeah, I think
Fri, 13 Mar 2026 - 19min - 77 - Unpacking Josh Bekoff's Melbourne to Warrnambool Victory (Training & Race data)
In this episode of the RCA podcast, the hosts discuss the impressive performance of Josh Bekoff in the Melbourne to Warrnambool race. They delve into his training regimen, performance metrics, race strategy, and the dynamics of the breakaway he was part of. The conversation highlights the importance of nutrition, pacing, and the mental aspects of racing, culminating in an analysis of the final sprint that secured Josh's victory.
Team & Podcast sponsor: https://onekloudx.com.au/
RCA Supporter kit: https://shorturl.at/5axJb
Key Takeaways
Josh Bekoff is a strong sprinter with a good five-second power. Durability in long races involves pacing, nutrition, and strategy. Critical power testing showed Josh's FTP at around 320 watts. Josh's training included threshold power improvement and long rides. Race strategy involved capping power to conserve energy for the finish. Nutrition was key, with Josh hitting his carb goals during the race. The breakaway dynamics were crucial for the final outcome. Experience plays a significant role in race performance. Josh's sprint power peaked at 1,100 watts during the final sprint. The importance of teamwork and communication in breakaway situations.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to RCA Bikes Online and Josh Bekoff's Achievement 03:01 Analyzing Josh's Training and Performance Metrics 05:54 Race Day Dynamics and Strategy 09:03 Breakaway Tactics and Power Analysis 11:57 Nutrition and Endurance in Long Races 14:55 The Final Sprint and Race Conclusion
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.034) Welcome back to the RCA podcast, which is also on YouTube. So please excuse any visual references for those listening on audio. Today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach and the team manager for RCA Bikes Online. And today we're going to be going through quite a phenomenal result by an RCA Bikes Online rider, the recent Melbourne to Warrnambool, Josh Bekoff. And we're going to break down what he did in his training at a high level before going in and then the race.
breaking down the data. And Ryan, who's sitting next to me, happened to not only coach Josh, but he also coached third place. So we can sort of have a look side by side, the two of riders in the breakaway, well, that made the breakaway till the very end. So before we get into it, Ryan, Josh, just tell me a little bit about his, everyone's interested in power, to weight, and the high level stats. Tell me a little bit about Josh as a rider, high level.
Ryan Thomas (00:50.702) He's a bit of a sprinter, so he loves the criteriums in Brisbane. We've got a very good criterium circuit in Brisbane and he is always on the podium. So it's very rare for Josh not be on the podium in a sprint finish or even in a little breakaway. He's got a really good five second sprint. It's not super big power, but you don't really need to be able to do super big power. It's just good for his weight at the end of a one hour trip. So that's kind of his strength.
Cam Nicholls (01:16.748) We did ask for writer bios during the week and he said his best power segment was 5 seconds, 1280 watts. He also said fishing was his hidden talent. He said he's not a good f...
Ryan Thomas (01:25.858) He's not a
Cam Nicholls (01:28.962) Cool. And what about his FTP and his weight, like his power to weight?
Ryan Thomas (01:34.638) Yeah, so we did critical power testing at the start of the year and he's sitting around 320 critical power. So 68 kilos-ish fluctuates, yeah, it's not a, critical power isn't huge by any means. So his strength really lies in that, the sprint.
Cam Nicholls (01:52.206) And for those that aren't too familiar with critical power, so 320, is that also his FTP? Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (01:57.368) That's what we use as his physiological threshold.
Cam Nicholls (01:59.842) Yeah, okay. But obviously Melbourne to Warrnambool is a lot about durability, which you can't really measure as a tangible outcome, but clearly Josh demonstrated that he's durable.
Ryan Thomas (02:03.118) Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (02:11.628) Yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of like, there's a lot within the durability aspect and what came down to the end of the race and like it's an eating competition, it's pacing strategy, like how hard are you going in the first four hours? It's a six hour race, so there's a lot that comes into it, not just having a high threshold or having a high durability. There's an eating competition, it's a drinking competition, and it's conservation competition.
Cam Nicholls (02:36.364) Yeah, so let's talk about Josh's training leading into Warrnambool and we could probably spend four hours on this if we really wanted to. So let's stay high level. The thing that I'm mostly curious about and I'm sure many of the listeners would be as well is, know, for those that know chronic training load, which is like a fitness score for want of a better word, what was Josh's chronic training load leading into Warrnambool?
Ryan Thomas (03:01.518) On the day he was 95.
Cam Nicholls (03:03.79) 95. So that's not really that significant.
Ryan Thomas (03:07.406) No, well yeah, he's a full-time worker as well, right? So he has a full-time job at 99 Bikes in Brisbane. So he has a limited time to train. He's got pretty good hours around his work, but he's anywhere from two to three hours during the week, and then he fits in his big rides on the weekend and works one day on the weekend as well. And a big week he's doing 20. But most consistently around that 12 to 15 hours.
Cam Nicholls (03:27.384) Yeah, so how many hours per week would he be doing?
Cam Nicholls (03:34.542) Yeah, okay. Because I know as myself as a recreational amateur, I'm probably getting to 10 to 12 hours when I'm really being able to divide that and carve out my time and get to my cycling. And when I'm consistently doing 10 to 12 hours per week, for those of you who are probably unfamiliar with chronic training load, I'm probably landing around 85, maybe pushing towards 90 if I'm really consistent for a long period of time. So that's why I hear 95 and I'm like, oh.
I know some amateurs that just love cycling so much, their CTOs are like 110, 120. So 95 surprising.
Ryan Thomas (04:08.96) Yeah, so I'm looking at his like his duration on the bike in the last six months and his average is 12 hours 50. So there's some big weeks in there like big 20 hours, there's like probably five, six, 20 hour weeks in there. But consistency wise, it's yeah, it's pretty high and his CTL did drop a little bit coming into it was just over 100. Yep. Before SA kick it and then he got sick and a few other situations there and then his CTL actually dropped so probably freshness paid a bit there as well.
Cam Nicholls (04:37.13) Okay, so he's freshened up. mean terms of the type of training he was doing was there a specific focus or was it all just like go out and do like, Melbourne to Warrnambool is a six hour race so it's just like just go and ride as much as you can which I know a lot of people for these events they think it's all about volume or was he doing specific interval training focused on specific zones? Like if you could pick out the top two to three things he was doing what were those?
Ryan Thomas (05:02.028) Yeah, so two things with Josh, former specific training, we know he's a good sprinter, so we wanted to use that and that's where he was going to get theoretically, he was going to get his results was in a maybe a criteria sprint or at the end of a race like he did in a sprint, like that was going to be his biggest weapon. And we also wanted to work on his weakness a bit. So his threshold power is probably his weakest area. So we wanted to lift that a little bit and try and get him tolerable at riding around threshold. So doing five.
to 10, 15 minute hill repeats just under threshold and at threshold. Try and get him, yeah, get him used to spending time at that zone. And then also we did, he did quite a few big rides as well. So was a big, quite a few five, six hour rides and big, big weekend blocks when he had the time to train.
Cam Nicholls (05:46.414) Okay, that weren't specific to targeting an energy system or just go out and ride with some decent efforts in there though as well?
Ryan Thomas (05:51.096) Long and hard.
Usually around club racing, so you go and spend half an hour to an hour riding to the race, do the race for an hour, then go and do some efforts after or just go and do another three four hours after. So you're getting up five, six hours of riding pretty easily, but there's also quite a bit of intensity in there that makes it quite challenging.
Cam Nicholls (06:13.132) I'm just going back to his rider bios. Your favorite type of ride Josh, crit plus extras. So no wonder he's been loving the training.
Ryan Thomas (06:19.118) He loves local crits as they all do in
Cam Nicholls (06:24.494) Yeah. So let's talk about the actual event, the day. And what's interesting is you also coach, not only do you coach Josh, but you coach Kevin Bifica, who was in the break and finished third. So it might be interesting to talk about some of the dynamics there and how they sort of compare as writers. But notably, what does the data look like?
Ryan Thomas (06:52.161) It's solid, but it's not like, it doesn't jump off the page because it's, you're in a 250 kilometer breakaway, right? Like you're not going to be doing any power records doing that. And if you were, then you've raced it very wrong. So Josh's mindset, from before the race started, it was make the breakaway, get out there and just get a big gap as possible and see what happens. So we just needed to be there. And his mindset was,
Cam Nicholls (07:19.406) TV time for the RCA.
Ryan Thomas (07:21.358) He knew that he's been racing for a long time so he's had a couple of hiatus's from racing but
Cam Nicholls (07:28.866) He had a year off racing last year, didn't he? Yeah.
Ryan Thomas (07:30.83) Yeah, well, in June 2024, he discovered that he had a leg discrepancy issue. So he had iliac artery and in start of 2025, it was like, yeah, this was the diagnosis. He had surgery in July 2025. So basically he didn't ride for, it was like nine months period where he was, didn't do much from January, January 2025 to September. He didn't do much on the bike at all. So he had to recover from that major surgery.
Cam Nicholls (07:59.95) and then he came in here for a bike fit earlier this year. Neil was telling me the only reason why he won was because of Neil's bike fit. Got himself sorted, positioning.
Ryan Thomas (08:05.102) Yeah, that works too. Yeah, Neil can take it. But he, yeah, big, big way back. I guess the point of that was he has a lot of racing experience. So we raced together in 2015, 2016. We were racing together in a Conti team in Brisbane called Brisbane Conti, racing the pedaler together, raced with a lot of really good riders like Jordan Kirby, was an Olympian, Caden Groves, we raced with him.
There's a lot of experience that Josh has that people may not be aware of. He's been racing this sort of stuff since he was 18 years old. He was quite young when he was racing this. So he has the experience, it's just not well known. So he has the engine there and he has the experience. So going into, when he made the breakaway, speaking to him after the race, I was like, what were you doing? Like how hard was people rolling? What was happening? And he was like...
I just had to cap my power at 300 watts. When I'm on the front, I'm not going harder than 300 and I'm trying to get as air oil as possible.
Cam Nicholls (09:03.54) Okay, so he's not going over FTP basically?
Ryan Thomas (09:05.838) So that's for five hour breakaway like if you're going over thresholds and you're gonna that's it and we saw a lot of people do it Well, we saw it there was seven got seven rods in that breakaway only three stayed away Yes, I imagine that a lot of the five riders or four riders that got dropped from that breakaway were probably rolling too hard at the start Yeah, and Josh was probably in this is saying that I like to use with the riders and when you're in a breakaway
You never want to show you're the strongest rider in the breakaway, particularly in the early phases. You want to hold it all back until that moment it actually counts, because it doesn't count in the first 50, 100K in the morning. The peloton decides how much the time gap is, not the breakaway. The breakaway riding a kilometer an hour faster doesn't mean you get 10 minutes versus five. It's the peloton sitting up gives you that extra time.
Cam Nicholls (09:54.178) Yeah, and as far as an FTP watts per kilo, Josh compared to some of the other riders, like compared to Kevin, he's quite a fair bit lower, isn't he? 60 watts lower. Yes. Yeah, okay.
Ryan Thomas (10:03.934) 60 watts. Yeah, so very, very significant, very significant. Yeah. On paper, if you looked at threshold, you'd probably say Josh is the least fit out of probably most anyone in that breakaway. Yeah, okay. And if you had to look at, if you had to line them all up and said, what's your threshold at the start, the seven riders in the breakaway, would probably almost go and tell you Josh had lowest one. He didn't. Yeah, I think he said, he actually said to me when I called him, he said,
Cam Nicholls (10:27.192) but he did not roll a turn.
Ryan Thomas (10:33.024) Everyone in that breakaway was so cooperative. It was just chock until he dropped. The four riders that got dropped, they just went hard until they couldn't go anymore. And the same with Ollie and Ollie standing the other on the breakaway and Kevin. Those three final three knew each other really well from racing in Brisbane. Kevin's from the Gold Coast and Ollie's based in the Sun Tone Coast. So raced together quite a lot. So they knew each other, they were chatting and it was like, all right, we're all in to make it to the line.
Cam Nicholls (11:02.104) Okay. Before we continue with the podcast, I wanted to thank one of our team sponsors, One Cloud X, a company that's headquartered in the Gold Coast, Queensland, but they have a national presence and they provide software solutions to small to medium businesses that need support with financial management, planning and budgeting, advanced manufacturing, warehouse management, supply chain optimization and analytics. They also specialize in multi entity and operationally complex
environments across manufacturing, distribution, construction, education, and services. And they go beyond core enterprise resource planning solutions like NetSuite and Epicore, which they do provide. But on top of that, they're layering automation, warehouse management solutions, and AI enabled workflows to drive measurable operational outcomes. They're also a supporter of local Australian cycling, and we're very grateful for that. So if you're a
Small to medium sized business in need of what I've just described. Please check out One Cloud X and we'll drop a link to their business in the podcast description. Now back to the podcast. So what does the TSS look like for the ride? Do you have the overall TSS?
Ryan Thomas (12:14.03) So, ride was five hours 50, 390 TSS, 260 normalised power, which was like around 80 % of his critical power. So it's pretty hot, tempo, essentially riding tempo for five hours 50 minutes, normalised power, which is hard. It's really hard. If I was to tell you to go out and do...
80 % of threshold for 60 hours. Oh yeah, that would hurt. Tell me to get stuffed. yeah. Average power was 240 watts. So 240 watts for Josh is like the very top of zone two. Okay. So average power, very top of zone two.
Cam Nicholls (12:51.982) And was Kevin similar in terms of, was he about 80 % of everything?
Ryan Thomas (12:55.818) His was a little bit higher. He was a similar percentage of threshold, but obviously a bit more power. And the similar weight, but I imagine Kevin was just pulling harder because he has a higher threshold.
Cam Nicholls (13:06.782) Okay, a bit taller as well, would it be pushing more wind?
Ryan Thomas (13:09.368) Little bit taller, yeah, so pushing, definitely pushing more wind and Josh is super aero, like he's very low, very, he's not super short, but he's just very efficient in the wind I would say.
Cam Nicholls (13:19.608) Yeah, okay. So that's the average power. I'm keen to know the last part because I can't imagine, I mean, I can't sprint full stop, but I can't imagine sprinting, you know, like that on, you know, five and a half hour fatigue legs or whatever it is, six hour fatigue legs. And it, you know, I think everyone recognises how much suffering that they've been through. So when you see the sprint, doesn't look like a normal sprint. Yeah. But I'm curious to know the power numbers.
Ryan Thomas (13:42.412) No.
Cam Nicholls (13:46.922) And before you share that, it was funny, you rang me, because we didn't expect this at all, obviously. It was unexpected as Josh's, at the end of the race, everyone saw how emotional he was and how shocked he was. But you rang me with about, think, 15 Ks to go and you said, there's three left. One of them's Josh. I coached the other one and I know the other one and I reckon he's a chance. I'm like, you're absolutely joking me. So he was a chance and he won. And how did he win? What did the power numbers look like?
Ryan Thomas (14:14.658) Yeah, so the three of them were super cooperative. They got down to three with like 50K to go. So they had four minutes. I knew that they would have been talking and they knew that they had to just go until 10K to go. And then if they had a timely up to 10K to go, they could start playing games. they knew that Josh had a sprint. Ollie knew he had a pretty good sprint and Kevin doesn't have a sprint. Kevin can't sprint at all. He's a diesel. He's really high threshold and just ride all day.
So with 10k to go roughly, there was one attack that was pretty much it. So all he tried to get away with 10k to go to try and drop Josh because he Josh was quick.
Cam Nicholls (14:51.042) we've got that video footage, so we'll put it up.
Ryan Thomas (14:53.122) Yeah, but other than that, no, that was the one with 2k to go. there was 10k to go, was one attack. And then it was like, I reckon that attack. And it was like, no, that was really hard. That hurt us all. We're probably on the edge of cramping. So let's get to 3k to go and then fight it out. And then, yeah, Ollie went with about 3k to go. And Josh was in the footage. You can overlay the footage. Josh was looking.
Cam Nicholls (14:55.118) and keep it back.
Ryan Thomas (15:19.95) all the way to his right, because he's like, is, he said to me in the car when I picked him up from the airport, he said, I knew he was going to attack and I was watching the right and I looked around and I said, he said, where, oh, he's two seconds ahead. So, Ollie did a really good attack with about two, two and a half K to go. But he, everyone was in the box, right? Everyone was suffering really bad there. And Kevin closed it down. So Josh kind of played that a little bit and knew that Kevin would close it down.
So that was really smart by Josh just to follow the wheel. And then we're just cutting him out for the last kilometer until 500 meters to go really. And then Ollie started sprinting. Ollie was in third wheel, came around Josh and he started sprinting really early. So 350 meters to go.
Cam Nicholls (16:06.926) Is that suit Ollie though? Because he's not much of a, he's got high power but he's not like neuromuscular, he's more a grinder.
Ryan Thomas (16:14.158) He needed to go long to win and he got my Josh like he almost got him. But he knew he would have known Josh has got a good sprint on him. So he's raced Josh many, many times. He knows Josh well. Josh knows Ollie well. So Josh would have known that Ollie needed to go early and Ollie would have known that if he waited too long, Josh would have got him in a pure 10 second sprint. Ollie did what he had to do to try and win. So 350 metres
Wed, 04 Mar 2026 - 19min - 76 - Thank you
Just a quick podcast note to say thank you for your support in 2025. This road cycling training podcast only really started 12 months ago. We've gone from 10's of downloads per episode to thousands. So now is the time for a reset and reresher, with the view to come back in 2026 with a fresh look/listen and an improved podcasting platform.
About the RCA: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/
Fri, 12 Dec 2025 - 02min - 75 - Group Rides: Boost, Burden, or Both for Your Cycling Potential?
Summary
The conversation delves into the significance of structured training in sports, particularly focusing on how managing intensity can lead to better performance outcomes. It highlights the importance of recovery and adaptations over time, while also addressing the complexities introduced by variability in training methods that comes with group riding.
Takeaways
Structured training is essential for performance success. Managing intensity is crucial for recovery and adaptations. Variability in training can complicate performance outcomes. A well-structured plan can lead to year-on-year improvements. Intensity management should be considered in all training cycles. Coaching plays a vital role in structuring training effectively. Recovery is as important as the training itself. Performance peaks can be achieved through careful planning. Uncontrolled rides introduce variability that can hinder progress. Understanding the science behind training can enhance coaching effectiveness.
Monthly coaching RCA: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.322) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined by RCA coach Ben Treville, who's a science data geek or data nerd. I always forget which one it is. I think I say that every time, Who's actually in the middle of Australia at the moment, traveling with his partner in the Northern Territory. So thanks for joining us today, Ben.
Alright, this podcast is brought to you by Starlink.
Yeah, the internet connection is actually pretty good based off of the last podcast we did. So hopefully no issues in this one today. I wanted to talk about group rides and bunch rides because a lot of people that come to us, they're doing them and they want to incorporate them and we want them to keep doing them. We call it the not negotiable rides because we want people to continue doing the rides that they enjoy doing.
you know, people also need to recognise that if you're overdoing them, which a lot of people are doing as well, you know, there's maybe some considerations you need to, you need to keep in mind. So in this chat today, I wanted to, you know, ask you with your, you know, partial science hat on, because I know there isn't a lot of science in this space specifically, this kind of indirect stuff that you've looked at, but also your anecdotal experiences as a coach, you know, working with amateurs and, and recreationalists that are doing
know, group rides as part of their training, you know, how does it look? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? What do we need to consider? So the first thing I'm going to ask you, because you know, a lot of people come to the RCA, they're making inquiries, I'm having conversations with them, and they're like, they're worried, do I have to let go of, you know, my group ride or my social ride or my, you know, we call it in noosa, the Tuesday world champs, you know, go smash fest with your mates. Do I have to get rid of that if I want to improve Ben?
Ben Treble (01:53.484) My favorite statement. depends. It's a point. I feel like I wear two hats. My lab coat as a sports scientist, and then I have my coaching cap and my sports scientist lab coat says, you know, from a technical point of view, structured training wins out. It's really about managing control and intensity and the more, even from a science or a coaching point of view that we can.
I can't.
Ben Treble (02:22.402) control, manage, intensity throughout a week, a block, a macro cycle, like a year on year within the plan, the better we can manage the recovery and the better that we can peak for a certain performance and find year on year adaptations. Once we add in variability, and I'm going to...
call on your bunch rides as highly variable uncontrolled rides, that's when things get a bit more complicated, right? And that's when you find that it's going to be difficult to plan a little bit, right? So that's the, we can dig a little bit more into the science side, because there is some science that's, would say, directly, or sorry, indirectly related to this topic. And that would be the science around what we call training intensity.
distribution, which is fancy words for, you know, how much time do we spend in each zone when we train? So I think a lot of our athletes and listeners are used to thinking about, you know, in training peaks, we can see that how many hours in a week have we spent in each zone, week on week, and you can see the general structure. The two most common would be targeting for either a pyramidal structure, where the higher the zone you go, the less time you spend.
And then you have probably what's got a bit more science behind it in terms of better outcomes, which would be polarized training or the 80-20 approach where you try to spend 20 % of your time at high intensity zones. And you spend 80 % of your time at the lower zones, so zone one and two. And you spend very little time in the middle in that zone three tempo space.
Can I, before you continue, can I just play a little bit of devil's advocate here because you you talk about the unpredictable nature and not being able to control what's happening in a group ride or a bunch ride and I get that but isn't that what happens in the events that a lot of people are targeting like their Fondo events or maybe they even want to go to a crit race so isn't a group ride like the perfect conditioning tool for those?
Cam Nicholls (04:40.64) No, it's unpredictable. Like you don't know what you're going to get. It's like for like.
This is where I put my, my coach had on. said it in our last podcast, but, I am an advocate for bunch rides in, two scenarios. One is when you have a rider that's at risk of burnout from structured training, because I think we need, we need two things long-term. The most important thing that I think we could all agree on in, in cycle training is consistency over the long-term.
Right? So how do we maintain consistency on the long term? The risk to achieving that is going to be burnout that stops you from training, taking a hiatus from training, which could be from work, family, travel, whatever it is. And then you have illness and injury. How do we reduce the risk of those things interrupting training?
Ben Treble (05:43.636) And I believe that you need to keep training fun and interesting. And one of the most motivating things, but nothing is more motivating really than chasing your mates. many of your PBs can a set by on your Tuesday worlds versus on the indoor trainer?
it's definitely, definitely Tuesday Worlds. But I do know, I mean, that other thing that's resonating going back to something you just said is burnout. I know if I do Tuesday Worlds and maybe if I did Saturday, the Saturday group ride as well, if I did that week after week after week, I'd be probably burnout within eight weeks, maybe even six. Yeah. Because there's too much for me. I know my body well now because I'm chasing wheels and you you're pushing yourself. You said, you know, you're getting PB's and stuff.
You know, if you're your one minute power and your five minute power and, you know, 20 minute power, PBs or close to every other week, there comes a point where the body's like, I know, I've had enough of that. And all of a sudden you're not even anywhere near those PBs and you're all of a sudden you're on a plateau and that's demoralizing too. So while the bunch ride is fun, when you're plateauing and your mates are going faster than you now and you can't pull turns.
maybe that affects the motivation. I there's certainly been a story of my past, not so much anymore because I'm a lot smarter, I listen to people like you now, but in the past, that's where I've been.
Yeah, in science, we call it social facilitation. Right? know, when you put yourself in an environment where you're surrounded by people say pushing harder than you, the sciences has researched this topic a bit and it applied to both this research on both, like, sort of real world sport and eSports. So they've had the same outcomes indoors and outdoors on this and people were able to achieve more PBs within that social
Ben Treble (07:45.496) group environment than outside of it. So there's still, think there's a lot of value to be had from Bunchrides, but it comes back to the individual and I think the timing of their program.
So with my writers, yeah, with my writers, what we try to do is let's say you have a goal, a target event that's in four months time.
Maybe within the base training, that's the time where we're going to make space for bunch rides. It might even be, or in the off season is a good time to make space for one or two depends on the individual bunch rides. But then as we get closer to the goal, we're probably going to reduce that to one bunch ride a week. And then when we'd say two months out, I'm probably going to say, look, let's keep this focused. Let's just do solo sessions for eight weeks. And at the end of the eight weeks after the target.
We have a couple of weeks where we do two social rides a week to bring back some of that. The social aspect's really important, but also it's fun and motivating, I think, bunch rides for people.
Okay. So what would you say then to somebody that, you know, has not negotiable to two group rides a week, but they want to improve. And I'm going to throw a curly one at you here as well. What if, what if their goal is actually to, to beat them like that? Cause we do have people that come to the RCA and like the number one goal is I want to beat my mates in the local group ride. Like that is, that is the goal, but they're also the irony of that is they're doing group rides all the time.
Cam Nicholls (09:23.746) You know what I mean? So they're probably hit a plateau because they're just doing the same thing every single time and fatiguing themselves as well. I know, like I think sometimes people forget that the heart's also a muscle. And if you're like two or three times a week going to max with your heart rate, know, stretching your heart every single week, two or three times a week, even I feel like that in itself, like there comes a point in time where it's like, well, the heart doesn't tend to ache like your muscles do and your joints do.
It tends to shut down the whole body when it's fatigued. So that's a pretty serious thing.
Yeah, I would agree. think what needs to happen is people have to remember that the work you do in the training isn't where you get the gains. It happens afterwards in the recovery. And if you don't get enough recovery, doesn't matter. Often you see this with the people who don't follow structured training as you're talking about, they might come to the RCA all the time and say, well, you know, I'm plateauing, but I'm doing more hours and more intensive than I ever have before.
Simple answer is you're not getting enough recovery and allowing the body to adapt to that training stress response. And because that's not happening, it doesn't matter how much more you push, if anything, all that's gonna do is take you from overreaching to over training and put you in a burnout mode.
right, which is what we want to avoid. So sometimes you have to go slower to get faster. I would suggest to those people, pick one bunch ride a week, skip the other one. The other thing, if we think about the polarized training model, right, 80, 20, if you're too long rides of the week, a bunch rides that are high intensity.
Ben Treble (11:13.582) There's a pretty good chance that you're not doing an 80 20. You're probably doing 80 20, but the 80 is hard and the 20s AC, which is, which is not what the science supports in terms of good outcomes in the longterm. So there's a balance to be had. And at some point you need to put the ego to the side. Now, if you really can't get rid of the two rides, the next step, the next best option would be.
In one of those rides, I would say one of them go hell for leather, like have a free ride, bunch ride that lets you, you know, get your fix. But the second one go on it, but you have to learn to say, okay, I have to learn how to drop the wheel or go off the front and drop back at certain points, right? So that will let you control the intensity. I remember doing bunch rides and I've had friends who were training come to bunch rides and they might go off the front and do an effort.
And then they'll come back and they might just sit on the back, right, to recover. And they'll actually use the bunch dynamics. They might talk to the bunch ahead of time. And I would say it's a courtesy to tell the bunch, guys, I'm actually doing a training ride. So they don't think you're just attacking the punch. So they know if you go off the front to do an effort, they're not going to chase you and kick things off. Or if they decide to kick things off, you might need to say, I've got to have the self-control to let it go and potentially get dropped on this bunch ride.
Hmm. Knowing that that will help me drop them next month when I do my free ride bunch ride. Hmm.
And what sort of stuff are you, you know, and this is a pretty broad question because everyone's different and everyone comes in at different levels. But let's just say as a general blanket and maybe I paint a bit of a picture here because a lot of people that come in, you know, I'll ask them and even if you look at and you go as a coach, I know you guys go a level above this because when somebody joins us, I'll incorporate, you know,
Cam Nicholls (13:19.37) import three months of historical data. And if I've been doing a lot of group rides, you can see what zones that they've really been hitting and focusing on. And quite often, because there is a lot of intensity in there, there's kind of like this gray area in the middle around sort of threshold, sweet spot. And in particular, I always ask people, do you ever do exclusive zone two? They've heard about zone two and they think they do it.
But like I'm talking about, no, no, you just actually go out ride for two or three hours and you just do zone two and you don't touch threshold. You really wanna focus on just nice, consistent, constant pressure at a zone two level. wow, I've never actually done that before. So there's often like looking at the data, lot of low hanging fruit items that you can focus on.
So if somebody's coming to you and they're doing a lot of group rides and say their goal is to improve in the group rides, but you've now convinced them, right, we're just gonna do one a week. What are you gonna put in sort of surrounding that, you know, in terms of training for the rest of the week?
I mean, how would I plan around a single bunch ride in a week?
Exactly. over a time as well, over a progressed 12 week period, how would you kind of start? let's assume that at the end of the 12 weeks, they want to now, they've been getting dropped off the back and they can't pull turns, but after 12 weeks, they want to be getting to the front and pulling turns again and feeling really strong again in their group rides and impressing their mates and doing all the things that we love to do in the group rides.
Ben Treble (14:59.438) I'd spend, I'd probably spend the first block weaning them off bunch rides, to be honest. So I would let them, at least the first week, I would let them have status quo, put in a couple other structured rides and see how well they can actually hit the target intensities of a recovery ride. I often find with new riders, when I give them a recovery ride, they turn it into something else. And the TSS looks way higher than it needs to be.
And they don't realize that a recovery ride is very low intensity. It's like if you were running and I said, go for a walk, that's like the equivalent of, you know, think of what is a walking pace on the bike. You might think to yourself, why would I bother? That's the right pace for your recovery ride. The point that you think, well, how am I bothering with this? That's the good intensity for recovery ride. so that's where I would start. So first block, wean them off.
In the middle, I would try and even get them off bunch rides completely for at least one block. I think most people are willing to do one block with no bunch rides, just do some focused efforts. In the final block, bring them back into the bunch rides once a week, manage it. And then towards the very end of a 12 week program, give them free rein on a bunch ride and see what they can do.
Okay, and what sort of training would you be prescribing if they're not doing bunch rides? Well, what are they doing then? Are they just doing recovery rides?
No, no, it's going to be a mixture. ideally on the weekend, you're doing, let's say one or two long rides, but let's say you get someone who has six to eight hours a week, and we're going to target for say four rides a week. We're going to do one long one on a weekend around two and a half, three and a half hours. This will be predominantly zone two with some high talk efforts. So that's a low cadence intervals in the sort of zone three range.
Ben Treble (17:00.846) Then mid-week, you probably have two full days off at least, and then split up to structured intensity days, which will most likely be a mixture of either threshold, which could be over unders, for example, or might be if we want to work on via 2 max, it could be 30 15s, for example. And then we're going to have a zone two ride and potentially a zone one recovery ride.
Yep, it's interesting. And just what you've said there, I mean, there's so many people out there that don't spend that much time on structured interval training. And, you know, they wonder why they struggle with recovering from, you know, doing a turn in the local bunch ride. You know, they can't go again, or, you know, they're struggling to, you know, get up a climb in their local bunch ride. And it's like, well, when you actually step away from that environment, and you target
you know, specific adaptations. So, you you're over-unders, that's gonna help you with your climbing. You've probably never done this before, because you're so focused on group rides and sporadic riding, all of a sudden you're targeting something that's gonna give you a specific outcome. The same as the, you know, VO2 max, you know, interval sessions, like 30, 15s, or whatever it is. That's gonna really help you with the ability to go really hard, come back into the bunch and recover. Go really hard, come back into the bunch and recover. And it's funny when people actually take, like what you've just described.
we're gonna take a step back, we're gonna just move away from that environment for a little bit, and we're gonna do some specific things that are gonna have specific outcomes, then when you get back into the group ride, you've done all these things you've never done before that are targeted for specific adaptations. it's amazing, you know, that the feedback you hear from recreationals and amateurs that actually embrace what you've just described there, Ben, and go back into that environment like, oh, okay, I get it now.
If I want to be good at this, I can't just do this all the time. Having said that, I do know there are the unique individuals out there that can just do bunch rides all the time and be good at them. We've got one locally here we call the robot. We call him the robot because he's like a robot. He's genetically a little bit different. So it can be, but more often than not, and I'm certainly one of these people, if I don't go do my...
Cam Nicholls (19:17.966) some targeted stuff surrounding the group rides, do my long rides in zone two, do some structured threshold, hill repeats, whatever it might be. I won't perform as well in the group ride. that's a brief overview of how you would sort of, I guess, target or improve group rides. You don't have direct research there, but you've got some indirect stuff.
What does that stuff say? Is there any enlightening things tha
Fri, 28 Nov 2025 - 25min - 74 - Boost V02 Max with Decreasing Interval Training (*Research Paper)
In this RCA Podcast episode, Cam Nicholls is joined by RCA coach and science expert Ben Treble, who dials in from the middle of outback Australia to unpack a brutal but fascinating VO2 max session: high-intensity decreasing interval training.
This workout comes from a 2020 research paper and flips the classic VO2 script — starting with longer efforts and progressively shortening the work intervals while also reducing the "recovery" time. The goal?
👉 Spend more time above 90% VO2 max for better aerobic adaptations, without endlessly grinding through 4–5 minute repeats. Research paper here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32780251/
Cam shares his first-hand experience trying the session (including why the 2-minute rep hurt the most), and Ben breaks down:
How the workout is structured and what intensities to target
Why some athletes respond really well — and others… not so much
Where this fits into a VO2 max "toolkit" alongside 30/15s and classic intervals
How to think about specificity, timing in the season, and variety in your training
Whether using ERG mode on the trainer is "cheating" (hint: it isn't)
If you'd like this workout built properly into your own training, check out the RCA 12-Week Custom Plan, where you work 1:1 with an RCA coach to tailor sessions to your goals, schedule, and current fitness.
Takeaways
A really important part of all training is variation. People do respond differently to different workouts. You can easily keep it interesting. I call it like a VO2 max toolkit. You've got the classic four or five minute intervals. You could use these decreasing working time intervals. Variation is key for effective training. Different workouts yield different responses. VO2 max workouts can be diverse and engaging. Incorporating variety enhances performance.
RCA 12 Week Plan: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/cycling-plan-custom/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.302) So welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined by one of the RCA coaches, Ben Treble, a science expert who's been with us many times before and is currently out on the road somewhere in the middle of Australia on some huge trip. Where are you Ben right now? It looks like you're in the middle of the country somewhere.
Yeah, thanks Cam. I'm currently in the Northern Territory on one of the bigger cattle stations called Newcastle Waters. I'm just here overnight at the moment and then we'll keep heading north this afternoon towards Catherine.
Yeah, nice. That room you're in looks like there might have been a few backpack backers murdered in that in the past. Looks nice and dodgy.
Yeah, I won't go into it, but we're going to go through a town called Laramma that has an ongoing murder investigation.
Oh, there you go. Yeah, it's a bit dodgy out that way, but it looks like you're having a good time watching your social media. So yeah, keep it up. Enjoy it. Today I wanted to talk about a science-based workout that's been going through the RCA coaching, you know, discussions recently. It was put up in our WhatsApp chat and we've created our own workout within Training Peaks that we've started to prescribe members to give a go. And I gave it a go myself this week.
Cam Nicholls (01:22.234) And I've sent you the paper. I actually haven't read the paper yet. So I'm hoping you can give us a bit of background on this science-backed workout that's, guess, relatively new and there's a bit more work that needs to be done in the space. But I'll give you my thoughts on the workout. But before I do that, can you tell us, you know, what is this workout and what exactly are we looking at in terms of, you know,
outcomes from a fitness adaptation perspective.
There was a paper by S. Lazar and Co. It was actually published in 2020. So I wouldn't say it's that new, but possibly the adoption of it is new. So they call it high intensity decreasing interval training, which is fancy word for doing high intensity intervals. And as you progress through the intervals in the workout, they're decreasing the work duration of each interval. So the quick example.
Say the first interval, you do it around three minutes. Then you have two minutes rest. Then you do a two minute interval, where that's the work duration. And then you have, say, around 80 seconds or 1 and 1.5 minutes rest. Then you do a one minute work interval, 40 seconds rest, 40 seconds down to 30 rest. And then it's 30 second work intervals until fatigue.
What range are we working at? we working at VO2 max? Are we working threshold? What are we doing?
Ben Treble (02:54.38) It's via to max. So the primary goal of this paper, and I guess this workout, it was to compare different interval workout types. So they had short, like classic fear to workouts. And then they had longer intervals, a reminder for the audience that anything above your threshold essentially just requires duration, but you can reach your fear to max at any intensity above threshold.
it just takes longer. So if you're say, if you're 105 % above threshold, you can still reach via two max, but it might take you 25 minutes to get there. Right. And so the crux of the paper and a lot of these via two max workouts around what's the best workout to improve via two max, that's really where they come from is how do we make these interval workouts more effective? And it's based on
That's a big assumption, but it's pretty validated that the more time you spend above 90 % VO2 max, the better the increase in VO2 max. So the better the adaptation outcome. And so they're trying to design and get creative around these interval workouts. What is the best interval workout structure that lets you spend more time above that 90 % VO2 max for less effort.
Okay. And looking at the paper and the participants and the results, was there anything worthy to note?
Yeah, yeah, it's keep in mind, it's a single paper is a pretty small sample size. So they had 12 cyclists, middle age, so around their 40s, they're moderately to well trained. So they had around a via two maxes of around 55 give or take. So that's just the population group of this study. So it's important to keep that in mind. And what they found was
Ben Treble (05:01.358) that you spent significantly more time in this high intensity decreasing interval type of workout compared to small or long intervals for VO2 max. What's important though, I think in this paper is that there's a high amount of standard deviation. So for example, one of the measurements was they spent around 312 seconds.
above that 90 % VO2 max, but your standard deviation was 207 seconds. So you had some responders in this sample group who might only have spent essentially what is an insignificant from a scientific standpoint, amount of time different to the other workout types. So some people had no more benefit that was measurable by doing this versus short intervals. But some people had very large
responses to it compared to the short and long intervals. And this is a trend in most of these, you you and I have talked about 3015 as a really good VO2 workout before from Ben Ronestadt. And even with within that, and he's done multiple papers on it, so then the research is a bit more conclusive, I would say that it's a very good recommendation. This paper is good. And I think it's a really nice indicator to say potentially, this has a lot of good potential.
But it's not a guarantee that it would work for you.
Okay, so going to the workout structure and how to do it because the thing I liked about it is I'd actually never done it before. I've done a lot of VO2 max training sessions, know, 30-15s, which we talked about, I started to incorporate that a fair bit after we sort of made some content on it. And, you know, I found that to be quite effective. I hadn't done a lot of
Cam Nicholls (07:00.622) 30, 15s in the past, so it was new. You get a bit of a dopamine kick out of it when you've been riding for a long period of time and it's a new workout to try. And you see a result as well, so that was good. In the past, I've done a lot of more sustained VO2 style sessions, like sustained three to four minute efforts, maybe if I'm out on the road, five minutes. But never this decreasing style session where
you you start off and this is what I want to validate with you because I think maybe what I've done was, you know, Ryan, our head coach dropped it in my training peaks and he said, look, this is where you start. Because obviously there's a starting point for these workouts and you can progress from there. But it sounds like what this paper is indicating is a little bit different to what I did, which was, I guess, dipping my toe in the water with this workout where I did a warmup. I then did some activation efforts.
I then got into the first set. and the first set was three minutes on, and this was, know, at, you know, VO two high VO two, two minutes, I wouldn't say recovery. It was probably, top end zone too. so for me, that was about my, was, try and operate just over 400 Watts for the three minutes. And then I came back down to two 50 ish.
for two minutes. And then I did two minutes back around 400 or just over 400. And then I came back to 80 seconds at 250-ish. And then I did a minute at around, you know, just over 400. And then I think it was 40 seconds maybe, or 45 seconds, I can't recall exactly, back at 250. And then I did the 30 seconds.
And then I went back down to 250 and then I did a recovery at like 150 Watts or something like that for seven minutes. And then I did a second set of that. But it sounds like in this paper, you continue on with the 30 seconds is what you said until you reach a fatigue state. Whereas I didn't do that. And I'm assuming, you know, the reason behind that is Ryan's like, well, you've never done this before.
Cam Nicholls (09:26.114) And I also indicated that I've been training for a triathlon and I hadn't done much VO2 work recently. So was a little bit, know, unconditioned for VO2. So he was aware of that. So what he's prescribed to me as a starting point sounds like it's not exactly what's put in the paper. Is that correct?
Yeah, you're on the money. It's probably important when we talk about the intensity in the paper, essentially they talk about the on and the off phase of the work and the rest components of those intervals. And they primarily did this using their VIA2max measurements, but they made some correlations to critical power, which they measured in the paper as well.
And so the relationship that they made was that the on phase was around 117 % of critical power and the off was around 83 % of critical power. So you're pretty spot on with what Ryan had you at. So, you know, that hundred and around the 115, 120 % of threshold was the hard. So like a via two max effort, it's pretty common. And then the off phase, a high zone too, I would say it's even maybe like
get reaching into zone three at 83 % of critical power for the off. So it's not an easy off. No, it's quite, it's quite key because when I first saw this and you sent it to me, my immediate thought was the recovery periods are way too long. Your heart rate will drop too much and the VO2 response will drop in those large rest periods too much. But then when I saw that the off phase was actually quite hard still at 83 % of threshold,
That's what helps keep the heart rate high and it's keeping that VO2 response high through the rest period. And then obviously, as you progress through those, you know, decreasing intervals, the work period and the rest period is decreasing at the same time. And when the work and rest is both decreasing, it's just maintaining that high VO2 max percentage towards the end of the workout. Exactly as you said, yeah, the goal is, and what they did in the study is that once you got to the 30 second
Ben Treble (11:41.824) interval mark, you had to repeat those until failure. So that's probably the key difference between what you did and what the paper did. But I think for our listeners, you know, you're still going to get a really good workout. If you just get to the first 30 second interval without continuing to failure, right? At the end of the day with all hit workouts,
time is, know, and availability is one of the challenges for all athletes. So if you only have an hour to train and that's what you can fit in, I think it's a really good idea to give it a crack.
So in the paper then, once they went to failure on the 30 seconds, did they then have a recovery period and do another set? Or is just one sequence?
Ben Treble (12:33.568) No, no. So they would do, for example, they would do this when they once they got to the decreased 30 seconds, there was 20 seconds rest. And then they would do another 30 seconds. And if they can't hold the power, that's when they would kill the session.
But what I'm saying is that, so once they got to that sort of failure point in those 30 second intervals, would they have a recovery period? Like I did, I had a seven minute recovery period and then I did another set. in the paper it sounds like that wasn't the case. Single set, it's interesting. So what Ryan has had prescribed me is, I guess iteration of the paper.
single sets.
Cam Nicholls (13:18.862) without the 30 second to failure and doing another set. And what he said he's done for a form of progression is at another set, like a third set. And he finds that that's actually really difficult. And for me, even though I haven't done a of VO2 max work, I'm relatively conditioned to interval training and I've done it for 15 years and VO2 max.
And I just found those two sets really actually quite a lot of hard work to do two of those sets, know, stopping at the 30 seconds and the the hardest repetition was actually the two minute repetition, not the three minute at the start or not the 30 second at the end, because I feel like that two minute recovery that you get after the three minutes at VO2 or just a bit over.
You know, at what did you say, 83 % of critical power. Yeah, which for me, 250 watts is borderline zone three in our seven zone, you power model. I did feel like I didn't get enough recovery. So when you start the, you know, the two minutes back at over 400 watts and you're not fully recovered, that two minutes goes for a very long time.
Yeah, it's a it's a pretty brutal session. I mean, I'm not surprised that the first one felt okay, especially if you've done a good warm up because your via to max is still going to be ramping up. And as it's ramping up, you're going to lean on and your respiratory rate hasn't fully increased yet. Right. So it's, you can even see it in the paper as you look at the the oxygen consumption line through this decreasing intervals that in the first one, it's increasing and it
it peaks at the end of that three minutes, right? And then you get the recovery. And when you start that two minute effort, you're already at like peak respiratory rate and your oxygen consumption is already very high. to me, that kind of makes a bit of sense that it feels pretty hard. All the first interval felt easier than the next one.
Cam Nicholls (15:28.91) in next one. Yeah, it was actually the second repetition in the second interval. So that two minute in the second set, that was by far the most challenging because I feel like, you know, one minutes, you you can get through one minute mentally pretty easily. 30 seconds you can get through, even though it's still hurting. But yeah, two minutes can be a long time on an indoor trainer at VO2 max when you're not fully recovered. So yeah, it was.
It was an interesting workout. I think it's, you know, going back to, you know, what you're saying about the paper is it didn't, you know, even though it's a small sample size and it's, you know, one paper, you know, it's, it's, you know, probably suggesting that it's not going to work for everyone, but it is going to work for, for certain people. And, you know, if you're doing VO2 max training and you're a bit
sick and tired of doing your standard go-to if you've done 30-15s for a long period of time or if you've done sustained efforts. From a variability perspective, there's probably a lot of value in it just in that. What would you say to that,
Yeah, I think there's a lot of value in it. You know, I had a couple key takeaways around when I read this one was that, you know, a really important part of all training is variation. And I think it's important even when we read papers, it's to remember, okay, people do respond differently to different workouts. But when we need variation, you know, you can do the 30-15s. And if you're doing a VO2 max block,
You can easily keep it interesting. You can have this, I call it like a VO2 max toolkit of different VO2 max workouts where you've got, for example, the 30-15s, you've got the classic four or five minute intervals. You could use these decreasing working time intervals. And you can use one that we've done before or talked about a little bit where you have like a classic, say, four or five minute interval where the first two minutes is.
Ben Treble (17:28.27) you know, around 130 % of threshold and then you go into the 120 % threshold. So you start hard and then finish not quite so hard. So I think it's nice in this sense. Like I saw it, I read about it. I think it has a lot of good potential. And based on the paper, like I will be adding it to my Fiat 2 Max toolkit. And I think everybody should consider giving it a crack. The other bit that I think is important to remember is
specificity in training. So, you know, and the timing of it. So depending on the time in the season, if it's just like a capacity block and you want to build via two maxes capacity, you could throw it into the mix along with some other workouts. But as you get more specific, if you're someone who does a road race that has lots of mixed intensities, I would say there's probably some benefits of doing this decreasing interval version because you're teaching the body to work at via two max at different
interval durations, right? Like two minutes, 30 seconds, two minutes, like different versions. Whereas if you're to do, something where you know you're going to do five minute efforts a lot or 10 minute efforts, then you probably want to grow yourself into those via 2Max efforts more than these.
Yep. No, good point. One, one final thing that I'll add from my experiences with the workout and I'm keen to get your perspectives as a coach. Uh, so the first set, I just struggled a little bit, uh, from a mental perspective. Like I was just couldn't get the power consistent. was kind of, I was a little bit above 400, but then I'll drop down to like 380 and 370 and then I'll get back to 420. And I was all over the place and I just,
I was losing a bit of concentration. think my motivation levels are a bit low as well after training for a triathlon, doing something that I didn't actually want to do. But, you know, what I did after that first set is I just locked it in erg mode. going, you know what? Like I'm not having a good time on the trainer, you know, managing this with my own, you know, my own mental capabilities right now. And I just...
Cam Nicholls (19:45.646) gave control of the trainer and said, you know, I'm just going to do the rest of the new, but I did the second set where it was just like bang on 400 Watts and then bang on 250 Watts and bang on 400 Watts bang on 250 Watts and I didn't have to worry about it. So is that kind of mid workout strategy based off of my headspace at the time? Like what do you say to that?
I think he did well to adapt to, you know, you had the self awareness to know, okay, this isn't going to work today, right? To do the workout off erg mode. And I think it's a exactly why we have erg mode in my view. I'm not anti erg mode. I think if you can do workouts without it, that's really good. The scientific side of me says I always like to do erg mode because then I know the workouts exac
Fri, 28 Nov 2025 - 23min - 73 - Life as a Directeur Sportif (Matt Wilson on Orica GreenEDGE *2014-2020)
Summary
The conversation delves into the intricate logistics involved in organising a cycling race, particularly a Grand Tour, highlighting the challenges of managing teams and maintaining motivation in a high-performance environment. Through the lense of a Sports Director / Directeur Sportif. In this case, Matt Wilson, who was the Directeur Sportif for Orica Green Edge from 2013/14 - 2020.
Takeaways
Cycling races involve complex logistics with multiple vehicles and staff. Managing a cycling team requires keeping everyone motivated and happy. Creating a cohesive vision among diverse teams is crucial for success. The environment in cycling is high-pressure and requires effective management. Logistics in cycling are more complicated than in many other sports. Team dynamics play a significant role in achieving performance goals. Each race involves staying in different hotels every night. The number of people involved in a cycling race is substantial. Maintaining a positive atmosphere is essential for team performance. The challenges of cycling logistics are often underestimated.
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.056) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined by Matt Wilson and Matt's a neighbour of mine and he's also co-founded the Pro Velo Super League which we just talked about in the previous podcast. If you want to hear about that, go back and listen to the last podcast. But Matt, which we didn't talk about in the last podcast, also has quite an illustrious, is that the word, cycling career and spent a lot of time as a pro and also as a DS, a director sportif. And as I'm...
just starting to get a flavor for what's involved. Not that I'm doing the DS role myself, that's Ryan Thomas, the head coach at the RCA, but I'm hearing about all the things he's doing. I'm like, wow, there's a lot of work here. And Matt, you spent eight years as one. thought, why don't we just spend half an hour here or 20 minutes or half an hour. I'm just gonna take chatting about what does a DS actually do? Because you kind of watch unchained documentary, which a lot of people would have watched, and you see this guy in the car yelling at the riders. it's like, is...
Is that all they do? Just tell them to ride faster. Which is clearly not the case, but I think a lot of people obviously don't have an idea and I'm curious myself to learn. But before we go into that, I do need to ask you a pretty hard hitting question here. And that is, you rode pro for a number of years. You won the Sun Tour, Australian road champion, you rode tour to France, know, top 10 at the TDU. Why do you never come to the famous Noosa Tuesday World Champs? Never seen you there. What's going on?
I have done it just before your time. really? Sprint for the blue letterbox?
Okay. Exactly. Yeah. Now it's the red letter box. Someone painted it a different color and you can't, it can't be changed on Strava. It's still the blue letter box.
Matt Wilson (01:40.194) Yeah, right. No, no, I did it back in the day. But yeah, no, not in recent history.
You just don't ride anymore, is you?
I do but I'm just so busy and I sort of you know if I do ride it's 45 minutes down to Parisian and I turn around and I come back and that's it that's that that's my riding couple days a week. Not even. Two hours a week would be a really good week.
So you're doing two, three hours a week? Oh. Not even?
Cam Nicholls (02:08.032) Right. Do you miss it?
Yeah, I do. I don't miss the professional hours and training as a job, but I miss being fit. I miss going out with the guys. I guess that single-minded focus of just all I have to worry about today is just a six hour ride and getting home smashed and just sitting in the couch and recovering and that kind of simple life.
is still attractive now and you're working sort of 10, 12 hours a day and got three kids and juggling, you know, regular life stuff that people have to have to deal with. But, know, as an athlete, you don't.
Yeah, okay. So you don't have any appetite to get fit enough to come do the World Champs on a Tuesday. It'd be great to see you there. Anyway, sorry. This podcast isn't about the World Champs, but it's become quite a well-known ride because I've made a lot of content on it and there's another content creator who's done a bit of content on it and yeah, gets quite a few people there now. They broke the record the other day actually. Really? Well, there was...
How many guys to get?
Cam Nicholls (03:14.254) There was one guy that rocked up on a TT bike with his sperm helmet and his disc wheel and he was the one that basically did it. But it's funny, like the day that happened, the whole bunch was with him. About 30 minutes prior, a whole bunch of professional triathletes went out and did the same course with six TT bikes and they went and smashed it as well. So it got smashed twice. It had been a record for like seven years and it got beaten twice in one day. yeah.
Alright.
Cam Nicholls (03:43.182) Your role as a DS, you were with Orica and you're a DS there from 2014 was it? To 2020-ish?
Yes. Yeah. If my numbers are right. Yeah. I signed a contract when Green Edge Cycling started, Orica Green Edge, was one year sports director, sorry, one year rider, two years sports director. So I did the first year of the team, which I think was 2013, And stepped into the car. Actually at the end of 2013, I switched. So my last race was Hamburg Classic. And then the next race was the Vuelta and I was a director at the Vuelta.
Yeah, okay. So as a pro rider, how long were you a pro rider for exactly?
10 or 11 years.
10 or 11 years. So you obviously exposed to the direct to sportive role during that time, you know, quite intimately. What was it about being a rider and seeing that role that made it appealing for you when you retired from being a professional cyclist?
Matt Wilson (04:46.54) It was never appealing for the vast majority of my career. The vast majority of my career. Yeah. Look, last, probably the last three or four years of my career, I started to take on a more leadership role on the road and started to become that road captain. And as that started to form, I started to feel like that might be somewhere that I'm going to move into. I didn't have a clear idea of what I wanted to do when I retired around that time.
Ruh!
Something changed though along the way, obviously.
Matt Wilson (05:15.446) So as that started to become more obvious that that was where I was going to go. And I actually, the year I signed with Orica Green Edge, I had offers from other teams as sports director as well. So that was clearly where people saw me going. And that was where I saw myself going and just sort of grew into it. at that time, believed that sitting in the car, like you said, yelling on the radio and doing the team meetings in the bus was all you saw.
You you thought that was the whole job, but essentially that's the tip of the iceberg sticking out the water, you know, and when you go underneath the water, the mountain of ice is really below and that's what all the work is. What you see at the top there, that's the fun part. Right. Getting in the car.
So even like the layman sitting over here watching Unchained and seeing the DS in the bus talking about the race before the race happens and then yelling in the team car, that's almost what you only saw as well as or thought as a rider as well. Sure.
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, especially as an athlete, you've got tunnel vision. You see what you see in the world that you have and you think that's the world. And then when you get, when you retire, the blink has come off and you see what the real world really is.
It makes a lot of sense. So maybe you could tell me, I don't know, you know, we could probably talk for hours, but is there like five, 10, know, even 15, whatever it is, like critical things you do as a DS? If you had to break down, like what are the top things you have to do in a list of five to 10? Perhaps things that people, you know, outside of yelling on the team radio and talking in the bus before the riders race, like what are you actually doing?
Matt Wilson (06:59.982) Look, a good DS is a logistics guru. Right, okay. So you need to be able to work with multiple teams, 20, 30 staff, eight riders and bring that whole group together in an efficient way.
When you say teams, mean like teams within your team.
Teams within the team. You've got your sporting department. You've got your high performance department. You've got your mechanics. You've got your soigneurs. You've got your management group and trying to bring all that together. And, and, know, on a cycling race, especially a grand tour, you're talking about the three week map of, you know, insanity. You've got, you've got two buses, you've got two trucks. You've got, you know, maybe a dozen cars, a couple of vans, a food truck.
And you're staying in a different hotel every night. Like I said, with a staff of 38 riders, it's complicated, very, very complicated logistics, more than most events. that's one part of the puzzle, which is really difficult. Keeping those teams happy, keeping those teams motivated, keeping those teams on point, those teams within the teams that I just mentioned, and bringing them all together to one vision, one cohesive vision, which is trying to get
whatever result it is you're trying to get and achieve and bring that through in a happy environment, high performance environment is incredibly difficult because you're talking about a lot of different personalities, a lot of different personalities. So, and as a sports director, you're the leader of that group, of that team going to those races. So that's very difficult. Then you've got the tactical, the race tactical side.
Matt Wilson (08:46.7) So understanding what's going on in the race, where are the opportunities? What are the other teams going to do today? How can we capitalize on those? What's going to help our position? What's going to help our result? Working with those riders and understanding that you've got eight individuals who've probably got individual capacity to win or desires to win motivations, what motivates those riders and trying to bring them together in a team to for one.
in most cases for one or two riders to get a result. So balancing all of their ambitions and balancing it in a way that it creates a high performance environment is incredibly difficult. So they're kind of the main things that you're juggling at all times.
So, and just if we can double down on that one because I find that one really interesting. Do you like going into a grand tour, you obviously have a strategy, but then I'm assuming things change very dramatically and can change very quickly. How do you, what are your tactics to deal with?
you know those situations do you have before you go into a grant or do you have a plan B and a plan C and a plan D if someone has a crash or somebody does something wrong like how does how does that look
Yeah, look, mean, every director's different. You know, I've come through and seen directors that I've worked with as a writer and directors that I've worked with as a director. And everyone's got different style. And you can have very authoritarian directors, which is I've got one plan. Everyone does what I want. If they don't do what I want, you're out. It's a very hard lined, immobile...
Matt Wilson (10:36.974) and direct. So, you know, what me, myself, I was probably the complete opposite. So I was very open to, to feedback from riders, very open to ideas from riders. At the end of the day, the ride is the one that's on the road that sees everything. you know, when I was a captain at a bike race, I know the level of what was going on in the bunch because I was there and I remember what it was like and I knew what to do.
at all times because you had all the information. You knew which way the wind was coming from. You know who'd been on the front. You know who was going well, who wasn't going well. You knew if you were going to get that break back or not. You knew everything because you had all the information in the race. As a sports director, you're 20, 30 cars back, maybe with some sketchy vision if you're lucky. And you've got riders that you can barely hear on the radio. And you've got a radio tour coming back to you with time gaps.
like a little detective back there trying to figure it all out. And it's gotten better since I've retired because I speak to a lot of sports directors now with the technology they use to gather that information. essentially, you're trying to make decisions as best you can. if the plan changes, or from my side anyway, if the plan changes, I speak to the riders in the race, what are they doing? What are they going on? What do you think?
And then you sit down and you work through, you know, is that right? Are trying to tell you something for their own benefit? Cause you get a lot of personalities like that. So you got to wade through the information a little bit. but I try and make the best information I could and, and, and make a plan, but you need to be able to pivot. need to be able to change. nowadays the racing seems a lot less structured than it used to be. It seems like they can attack at any point.
pit they happy just to throw a carton of eggs against the wall and just see what happens. Where back in my day it was much more, know, if you had tact you had a plan why you were attacking. I don't know.
Cam Nicholls (12:44.078) Oh, so now it's way more unpredictable. Way more unpredictable. Really interesting. And you can't put your finger on as to why?
I don't know why, but it's a, this no plan is now plan kind of plan seems to be, it seems to be the norm, which is, which should be terribly hard as a sports director nowadays to navigate.
Yeah, interesting. I interviewed a Swiss rider, his name's eluding me at the moment. He raced for 17 year pro, Mickey Shaw. Mickey Shaw, there we go. In 2022, I think I interviewed him, the year before he retired. he was, because he'd been racing for 17 years. And he was saying to me that in his time, what he'd noticed with racing is, you you'd have races where it was kind of like, you know,
like Tour Down Under was just more of a warm-up race for the year. And these were more warm-up races and these were more serious races. And over the years, particularly in the last few years, he said at the time that he felt like every race had become full gas and full on, like there was no more easier races. So I don't know if that plays into what you're saying, but that was an interesting anecdote from him, I thought.
No, mean, like the money's gone up incredibly. The coverage with it, the sports science has gone up. think the experience of the bunch as a whole has gone down. So if you think about it, back in my day, you'd be amateur for three or four years minimum. And in that time, you'd do 80 to 100 days of racing a year as an amateur.
Matt Wilson (14:28.108) And then you would turn professional and you turn professional and you'd have two years on minimum wage and you wouldn't get a chance to win anything. You did, you did a job every day and then you slowly started to develop and you got leadership opportunities and your career sort of went on from there. So by the time you were professional, especially by the time you're professional in racing at the front of the bunch, you had done four or 500 days of racing at a high level. So you were experienced.
And what age would you typically be? Like after 25?
Yeah. You're probably turning pro at 22, 23 was early. Yeah. Okay. So a lot of guys, I was 24 when I turned professional. So you could, you could sign a lot later. So the average experience in the bunch was a lot higher where now there's kids turning professional at 18 years of age, 17 years of age. They've done 20 races as an amateur, as a junior. training has gone to another level.
So they are physically strong. can put out as much power, know, more power than we ever could. At that age. The high performance side has gone up hugely. So you've got these huge engines with no experience thrown into a situation where they're racing, racing for sheep stations at every race. so there are no, so bunches become a lot sketchier.
That's interesting. I'd never thought of that.
Matt Wilson (15:57.698) Yeah, and the racing style has just become a lot more out of control.
Yeah, there you go. So going back to the DS, so obviously there's a lot to manage. There's a lot of moving parts, a lot of logistics, as you said. If we break down a year, like what would a typical year look like? Because I look at professional riders and they seem to target specific races and then they may not race at certain races, they might go into training and they may come home or whatever. But I look at the...
the team infrastructure that sits behind the riders, including the DS, are you just away all year? Do you ever come home? Are you just on from the time the TDU hits till whenever the last race of the year is late October or whatever? Is it just constant mayhem? What does the year look like for a DS?
Yeah, look, I mean, it depends what your specific DS role is. you know, traditionally there'd be a head DS, which would be in charge of signing riders and, you know, building the team for the next season, planning out the races, planning out which riders will do which races, individual performance plans for each rider. And so that sort of role.
Which was your role?
Matt Wilson (17:15.018) No, I've never had DS. Okay. No. So if I talk about what my role would have been, and it's hard to sort of say when the season starts, but let's just say it starts in December of the year before. Normally you'd run a training camp sometime in that early season with the whole new team, get them in. And at that stage it's probably less about the training and more about team building and getting together. Obviously it's the training as well.
But sitting down with each rider and mapping out the year. Saying, you know, what went wrong last year? What are we going to focus on for next year? What's your personal goals? What's the team goals? This is what your program is going to look like, roughly. You normally map out at least until the Giro. So you knew for sure what that early season looks like and then sort of have an idea with the middle season what it's probably going to look like and then the back end just wait.
injuries, illnesses, everything changes sort of in that back end of the year. having a sit down with each one of those riders and just mapping out that whole thing, giving them the time to unload on what they really want. And you'd sit down and be all the directors, you'd have the head coach, you'd have different people from the high performance team all there sort of chiming in. So they'll get a really good idea of where that rider's at.
Do those conversations always go well? I can imagine there might be bit of pushback. Yeah, but obviously you're dealing with a of personality. So do you often get pushback? Like people leave those meetings and they're frustrated because they want more out of their year versus what's been articulated from say you and the wider team? Yeah. So how do you deal with
It really depends on the writer.
Matt Wilson (18:56.13) Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. It really, it depends. Some writers can be, can walk in there, you know, full of, full of themselves. They're going to do this. They want to do that. they, they've surrounded themselves with people that have been telling them that. And they, and they believe they're at a different level to what, you know, we believe they're at. And that's difficult. Of course. Yeah. That's a really difficult conversation.
Been telling him that.
Matt Wilson (19:21.922) And there's some writers that come in and I can remember Simon Gerens as an example of this. And, you know, we had done 20 writers over the past three or four days and a lot of them come
Thu, 13 Nov 2025 - 33min - 72 - The ProVelo Super League & Reviving Australia's Competitive Cycling Scene
Summary
In this episode, Matt Wilson, co-founder of the Pro Velo Cycling League, discusses the inception and purpose of the league, the challenges faced by Australian cycling, and the cultural shifts affecting competitive cycling. He shares insights from the league's first season, innovations planned for the future, and strategies for funding and sponsorship. The conversation also touches on the importance of engaging viewers through content creation and the league's commitment to fostering international participation in cycling events.
Provelo webite: https://provelosuperleague.com/ Takeaways
The Pro Velo Cycling League aims to revitalize Australian cycling. A healthy elite domestic cycling scene is vital for youth development. Rising costs and lack of volunteers are major challenges for cycling events. Cultural shifts have led to decreased participation in competitive cycling. Innovative technology is being integrated into cycling broadcasts. Funding and sponsorship are crucial for the league's sustainability. Engaging content creation is key to attracting viewers and sponsors. The league is open to international teams and riders. Prize money is currently low but aims to improve with funding. The league's long-term vision includes a crowdfunding campaign for support.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Pro Velo Cycling League 03:44 The Purpose and Vision Behind Pro Velo 10:27 Challenges Facing Domestic Cycling in Australia 17:49 Lessons Learned from the First Season 24:02 Prize Money and Future Plans 30:31 Sponsorship and Team Dynamics
Cam Nicholls (00:00.13) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined by Matt Wilson who is the co-founder of the Pro Velo Cycling League. Also as a neighbour of mine, so I wanted to bring him in today to talk about the Pro Velo team. Our reason being the RCA is actually putting together a team for next year and we'll go through why and who the riders are and who our sponsors are towards the back end of this discussion. But Matt, I wanted to pose this question to you because a lot of people that listen to our podcast, they're...
American, they're UK European, Canadian, they might be wondering what the hell is the Pro Velo League, what is this all about? in its simplest form, can you explain to us what it is?
So the genesis of it, I guess, came about two years ago, two and a half, three years ago actually, probably when it started. I used to run an NRS race and the NRS series was the National Road Series in Australia, was the top domestic road cycling series. And that had been going for about 20 years. And I'd seen it when I was a rider, as a young rider, and then obviously transitioned into a different role as I went along.
And eventually started the Australian Cycling Academy. And this part of that, we started a race, an NRS race up on the Sunshine Coast, which was called Cycle Sunshine Coast. in that 20 year period, we saw it go from strength to strength down to what was basically running at six o'clock in the morning with a chalk line on the road, getting the riders out there and just creating some sort of race for people to race. was no commercial value. Sponsors coming into the sport were getting nothing. Events were struggling to break even.
teams were struggling. So there was no commercial model there anymore and the whole thing was about to fall over. There's only a few races left on the calendar that had any sort of security. So I had in my mind from a team point of view, from a rider point of view, from a race organizer point of view, what was needed to turn it around. And essentially we needed a bucket of money to come into the sport and we needed to create a commercial model that made sense.
Matt Wilson (02:08.248) that meant it was more cost effective for teams to come to races. It made sense for young riders to be able to come and race in the season. And it made sense for events because they could get eyeballs on it again. People would come and watch the race. Sponsors could get involved. There would be TV broadcast for to get some return on their investment for the sponsors. So everything needed to get switched. And we tried to create a model that encapsulated all of that. So compact season.
three months, a narrative that the public could understand, bringing the racing back to the people. So running it at times of day where people will go and watch in areas that they can come and see it to create a good live broadcast that was cost effective, but gave return on investment for riders and teams and event sponsors. And create an exciting racing platform that is dynamic, that is more accessible to all.
which is more open to results, not dominated by one team, basically. So it made the racing more competitive. And that's what the Pro Velo Super League is. So we started, we had to create three new events in our first season. was last year? Which was last year.
this year. I'm forgetting what year we're in now.
So we created three new events as part of the league and then we took the three oldest and most established national series races which is Tour of Tasmania, the Melbourne to Warrnambool and the Grafton to Inverrell and we encapsulated those into those three new events that we started and launched the league.
Cam Nicholls (03:46.35) Yeah, well, okay. And so what's the purpose of it? Like, why do it at all?
So, like I said, the sport was dying in Australia.
was going to say the sport, talking about like the amateur top level road scene, which is like your segue to your next step into Asia or your next step overseas. Yes.
Okay. Yeah. So the world tour level stuff is going great. Is it? That exists overseas. Yep. Got the tour down under in Australia, Cuddell Evans Great Ocean Road Race. That's great. But other than that, it exists overseas. It doesn't exist in Australia. And everything else from club level through to the top domestic level is struggling and dying. And the pathway is especially important. So if club level cycling exists,
and a good young rider comes through, starts to win some club level races and then wants to go to the next level. If there's no pathway, there's no stepping stone with a top elite domestic cycling series, where does that rider go? They're going to have to go straight to Europe. And that's a big, big jump for any rider to take from club level.
Cam Nicholls (04:58.008) seen it. To Europe. You're no better than me but I've just seen it just knowing a few guys.
From top level domestic competition to Europe is a massive step. A massive step that most riders can't get over. But from club level to there, it's almost an impossible task. So we need to have a healthy, elite domestic cycling scene. It's vital to Australian road cycling and without it, yeah, the sport will go backwards in this country. There's just no doubt about it. And it's become so expensive to run races in Australia that
we need to have a healthy commercial model around it to support that cycling scene.
Why has it become so expensive?
Police costs have, since I started running races, which was six years ago now, have probably gone up four times. Four years. It's probably our most expensive item line now is just police costs. So you're seeing more and more closed circuit races. So fixed criteria and courses that are purpose made criteria and courses, motorsport park courses, because these don't require police or traffic management. So between the police, the traffic management and the insurance, that's half your event costs gone already.
Cam Nicholls (05:47.372) times in six years.
Matt Wilson (06:08.898) And you haven't even stuck a barrier up or, you know, put any infrastructure in or anything. it's just become incredibly expensive and, and difficult to run events out on roads. People don't want events out on roads. The public don't like it. There's crashes and people who crash sue, sue their event organizers or sue the police for having a crash. And, you know, all these things increase the insurance, increase the costs, increase the liability and event organizers become less excited about running cycling races.
Okay. Well, that's frustrating and disappointing to hear, but understandable. You mentioned as well about, you know, cycling struggling at a club level. I've certainly seen that. I remember like going back to even 2018 when I was leaving Melbourne and moving to the Sunshine Coast and there was the Tuesday nights at Sandown in Melbourne hosted by Caulfield Carnegie. I remember for years
A grade, B grade, C grade, you know, they had 60 to 80 riders. It was jam packed every Tuesday. And then once, I don't know what it was, but it was around 2018. Those numbers just started to dwindle down to 30 to 40, 20 to 30. And it's like, what's going on? And I remember it's like, seeing it with my own eyes. And it just seems to have dwindled ever since. And obviously COVID hit, which probably didn't help. But what do you think it is? Obviously you've got your hand on the pulse here at that kind of
club level and even at a race level, know, like domestic racing external to like national road series going back that long. So like tour of bright numbers were diminishing as well. do you have any, I know you're probably speculating, but any thoughts as to what it is?
Yeah, I've got theories. Shoot. Look, I think we're seeing now a generation of riders that came through the, everyone gets a ribbon generation, you know? So competition was looked at a bit differently when these kids were growing up than when I was growing up. And I feel like they battle a lot with turning up to a race and not winning and what that psychological effect on them.
Matt Wilson (08:21.838) I don't know, but there's definitely not an appetite to put themselves out there and just race and just race for racers sake. I mean, the Nusa Criterium was on two weeks ago. It's still probably the richest race in Australia. was $5,000 first prize for a 30 minute criteria. And they struggled to get over 30 entries. Now in my day, if someone had put up a thousand dollars for a criteria, you would have 200 people turn up. even though, you know,
more than half that field had no chance of winning it. The fact that it was good prize money, that there was something to race there for, people would get out there and they would race and they'd race hard and they'd get together in groups and try and form little teams and do whatever they can to get a chop of the prize money. there was a different culture back then to racing and that culture I don't feel like is there anymore and people are scared and protective. So there's a cultural change there in terms of club level racing.
Clubs are finding it impossible now. Okay, the costs are going up for them just like everybody else, but they can't find volunteers anymore. So the demand on people's time is greater now than it ever has been. And people's willingness to do something as a volunteer is disappearing, that community aspect of helping someone else. And that's making it harder and harder to run races. So you're getting less and less races, you're getting less clubs, less membership, and everything sort of starts to go down.
I think it's a cultural problem more than anything else. And I hope it turns around. I have spoken to people in other sports who said that this next generation coming through, these 16 to 18 year olds now are kind of a little bit different to the ones that have been, you know, the 25 and 26 year olds that have come through recently that they're a little bit edgier. They're a little bit willing to put themselves out there. So interesting. Maybe social media has a bit to do with it as well. Now you can get your ass kicked and
Everyone sees it now. Back in my day, was a byline on the bottom of the newspaper, the results. Everyone was bit more hidden, so maybe that's got something to do with it as well.
Cam Nicholls (10:28.716) Yeah, interesting. Yeah, there was a bit of banter around the Caulfield-Cunnigy cycling club around that era, you know, 17, 18, that, you know, I remember actually riding in the local group rides in Melbourne, you know, the North Road ride and Hell Ride, you know, you'd be like, that guy, you know, he came third in B grade at St Kilda on the weekend and people would talk about it. It was kind of like prestigious to, he made it to B grade or that guy's just made it to A grade.
won the hell ride last week.
Yeah. then it was like, so that was talked about, but then it was like this emergence of social media and, you know, people could go buy the 20 grand bike or maybe it wasn't 20 grand back then. was more like 12 and, you know, put on the map kit and look really cool and get some, you know, sleeve tats. And that was kind of them being, oh, that's a good, cool looking cyclist. You know, that guy's got respect versus, you know, maybe like five years prior, was actually, you you had to go down to the crits and you had to go earn your stripes and make it through the grades to get a bit of, you know, credit in the bunch.
So that was speculated back then, who knows what at all. Maybe it's a blend of everything, yeah. So going back to the Pro Velo, like when you look at this year, what did you learn from this year? This is your first go at it. Like what were the big lessons from this year and what does next year and the following years look like? And I know you obviously got some considerations as well surrounding funding for the league as well in the future.
Yeah, look, it was, we got the green light. So we sat down with Jerry Ryan with our concept. And this was in a two and under in 2000 and two years ago now. And we sat down, it was a 15 minute conversation and it was a handshake and said, yeah, I'm on board. And, you know, we had a three to five year plan to make this sustainable, financially sustainable. But that was in January and we had to launch the league in
Matt Wilson (12:22.126) the following January. So we had 12 months and we had nothing. We didn't have a website. We had a logo. And we had a concept. That was it. So we had to create three new events, a digital platform, a following, you know, convinced the community that we were real and we were happening and get teams and riders on board. it was a, it was a incredibly difficult year.
That's good, that'll get you far.
Cam Nicholls (12:45.314) how many people are involved in that organization or that you just described.
essentially myself and my co-founder Aaron Flanagan with the main parts and Aaron has a team around him, a digital marketing group, two people, graphic designer and that's basically it. So it was an incredible amount of work and this year it's been all about trying to refine that. How do we make that better? How do we make those events better? How do we make it more efficient? We spent a lot of money.
learning, trying to deliver all these events one after the other after the other. What worked in the broadcasting? What didn't work? How can we improve that side? So our broadcaster, SBS, getting together with them, thinking, throwing around a few new ideas. We really tried to bring as much technology to the league as possible last year. So innovative, what's going to bring viewers in? We had a concept called the ValoPhone, which was
a direct line from the commentator to a rider in the race where the commentator can ask the rider questions who's actually in the race. And that was fantastic. mean, insights that's a world first, you know, for a commentator to be able to do that inside a race. So that was, that was a great innovation.
Did that idea come from out of curiosity?
Matt Wilson (14:06.418) just throwing it around. had, I had myself and Dan Jones, working a bit creatively on the, on the broadcast and what could we bring to it? now as good as that was, we're using pretty raw tech, basically using an iPhone and a, and a, and a cable to speak to the rider and connecting through, through WhatsApp. so we're trying to refine that for next year. How can we make that better? we're trying to link those through GoPros now. So you can not only have.
speaking to the rider from the commentator, but you can see what that rider is seeing as you're talking to him. So being able to connect directly to that GoPro and see it live. So insights like that, think, and we're doing this on a shoestring, mind you. So if we can get more funding in, if we can work on that tech and get it better, I'd love to see a technology where, you know, one rider from every team has a live GoPro in the race, and you can watch through a website and...
connect to different writers, watch what different writers see, follow different teams. You know, there's a lot of things that the technology is out there to do. We've just got to bring it into the Peloton and get it working.
Okay. Interesting. And in terms of lessons, maybe if we look, was there a big mistake that you made or a couple of mistakes where you're like, hmm, probably shouldn't have done that, could do that a lot better next time.
Not really. Like I said, it's fine tuning across the board. It's making the races more cost efficient, bringing a better technology and better broadcast to the viewers. Social media, I think we can step up a lot and we've got a plan to have a full social media team at every event and really pump out the value there for not only teams, but viewers. Sponsorship was one area where we really didn't land the plane last year. again, we're
Matt Wilson (15:56.878) brand new. We didn't exist. So it took a real leap of faith for any sponsors to come on board. So we need to do better at that next year and we're starting to get some traction with a few good sponsors. So yeah, all those little things need to step up and we need more teams. And it looks like next year we will have probably 20 to 30 % more teams on board. Oh, wow.
So how many more teams will that be? What's 20 to 30 %?
Probably two new men's, probably three new men's teams and two new women's I'd say. great.
Yeah. so what is the plan? I mean, is there like a five year plan? I kind of hate that question, but I've been, it was one of the questions from one of the RCA's writers for next year. What's the five year plan, but is there a three year plan or a two year plan? Obviously it's going to depend on funding.
Yeah. So, yeah, we had a five year plan originally, which, which showed, financial turnaround. So three to five years, somewhere around that we start to break even and then, and then start to make a little money on it. but you know, that's contingent on, on getting funding in, the beginning, because these things take time. It takes time to build a following, takes time to build a product that sponsors want to come on board. And that's critical to everything that we do from the event side.
Matt Wilson (17:15.054) through to the league. So yeah, we definitely need more supporters. We're going to launch a crowdfunding campaign during the season next year, which allows anybody for any amount to come on board and support it and be an investor in the league. We have launched a membership program called the PSL Patrons, which is a high-end membership program, which has a tax deductible donation to the league as well.
All these things will help support what we do and help get to that three year, five year plan where it can turn around and start to be self sustainable.
Where can people find links to these things? Are they on the Provelo website?
Yeah, the Patrons Program is on the Probello website and the crowdfunding campaign will launch next year during the season. So just keep an eye out for that one.
Lame question. So when you talk about breaking even and eventually making some money, which would be nice because obviously people are putting in a lot of effort. Is the money mainly coming? It's obviously not because the teams pay us, I guess, a small fee at the end of the day to participate, but that's probably not covering much and that's not really where you're going to
Thu, 13 Nov 2025 - 33min - 71 - Pacing a Fondo Like a Pro: Strategy, Fuel, and On-the-Day Decisions
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with Head Coach Ryan Thomas to break down how to pace a Gran Fondo—from the night-before plan to the final sprint. Fresh off a grass-podium at the World Fondo Championships, Ryan shares the exact playbook he used on a course that opened with a 10 km climb, featured brutal crosswinds, and finished fast along the coast.
You'll learn how to organise your race day (start-time math, breakfast timing, warm-up activations, clothing), how to read the course and wind to conserve energy, and how to choose the right effort on long climbs so you don't detonate before the finish.
What we cover:
Race-day setup: When to eat, what a practical warm-up looks like (incl. 30s high-cadence activations), and why start-line position matters.
Climb pacing 101: Use lap-average power vs. your recent bests; ride ~90–100% of threshold on long openers; when to hold wheels vs. let them go.
Wind & terrain tactics: Headwind climbs = sit in; tailwind climbs = expect selections; how to handle spiky "over/under" climbs and when to save bullets.
Group dynamics: Solo chase or wait? Simple rules to avoid burning matches you'll need later.
Heart rate in context: When HR helps (and when it messes with your head).
Downhill & crosswind safety: Line choice, spacing, and staying within your limits on sketchy descents.
Fuel & hydration: Real-world targets Ryan used (~100–120 g carb/hr), bottle strategy for 3+ hours, caffeine timing, and what to carry (and what he didn't).
Gear notes: Gearing, tyre choice/pressures, and wheel depth for windy days.
If you've got a Fondo on the calendar and want to turn fitness into a result, this episode gives you the pacing blueprint to ride smarter, conserve energy, and finish stronger.
— Work with RCA: Want a coach to map your course, pacing, and nutrition for your next Fondo? Visit roadcyclingacademy.com → Hire a Coach (monthly or weekly options). Prefer structure without full coaching? Check out our 12-Week Custom Plan.
Cam Nicholls (00:00.088) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas. And we've got a bit of a series running here. The World Fondo Championships were recently in Australia. Ryan participated. He had a great result, grass podium fourth on eight hours training per week. If you didn't hear that podcast, check out the previous podcast where we talked about Ryan's training. But in this podcast, I wanted to specifically talk about
your pacing and generally how you would pace or organize, prepare for a Fondo event. And for this one, Ryan, we had a few questions come through on, we've got a community forum, if you're a member of the RCA, and some of our members posed some questions. They saw your amazing result and they're like, oh, hang on a sec, I've got some questions for Ryan. So we're gonna go through those today, The first one.
that I want to pose from one of our members. And it's kind of a big and broad question. So I'll let you answer it the way you want to answer it is like, how did you organize the race or the Fondo?
Yeah, yeah, thanks, Kim. Organization for the race is kind of thinking about start time, warm up, nutrition, clothing, all that sort of stuff in my mind. So the start time for me was around 7.15. So I worked backwards from that time in terms of organizing myself from the race and think about the day before, car bloating, eating, eating a lot of carbs, a lot of pasta and rice. But on the event day,
Usually you want to eat your main breakfast around two and a half hours, three hours before. So I was up at 4.50, had some breakfast. then I knew this event in particular was a very hard start. So preparing for the race and organizing myself for that was wanting to be warm and doing a good warmup before. So it was 17K in from our accommodation. So we rode in.
Ryan Thomas (02:09.614) Um, we wrote in, was a nice warm day. So didn't really have to worry too much about that. Um, unreal sunrise, just as a side note, it was probably one of the nicest sunrise I've ever seen. Um, on the ride in, which was nice start to the day, but can I nice.
can I just pull you back on one question? So you got up at 4.50 to eat. So you could eat roughly, you know, two hours before the event. And this can vary for people depending on the event. Like obviously, you know, if your event starts at six, you know, you know, do you want to get up at 3.30 or four? Probably not. But then what does your event look like if your events may be going to start with, you know, like
For example, I did the Grafton to Inverrell earlier this year and that was an early start, but I knew because it was such a long event and the first part of the ride was relatively flat, there wasn't gonna be a lot of hard riding. So I could eat closer to the start time. So that one's a bit of a tricky one. And according to the science, you wanna eat three to four hours beforehand, which is just not practical in many ways. You gotta do what's practical, but you gave it roughly two hours. How many?
And once again, you know, this is a really important one for a Fondo event to make sure you get enough fuel the day before you mentioned carb loading, but also the morning of. The science says one to four grams of carbs per kilogram of body weight for your main sort of breakfast before an event. And your 70 kilos, Ryan, roughly, do you know how many carbs you had for your brekkie?
not exactly. I'm not a big, big number carb counter for meals. I do go racing, but I had, knew roughly roughly what I needed. I just kind of my normal, my normal breakfast is like two pieces of white toast with a bit of peanut butter and honey or something simple like that. So I just added another piece. So I didn't want to throw my stomach out of whack too much. And there's a three hour events on you. didn't need to
Ryan Thomas (04:14.542) smash a lot of carbs. Yeah. Just from experience, but I had three pieces of toast with the butter and a lot of honey. I reckon I had around a hundred. That's probably around a hundred grams of carbs for that. And then I had 40 grams of carbs in my bottle on the writing. So got right pre pre event. had around 140. So two, two grams per kilogram. Okay.
Yeah. And so you're riding in beautiful sunset, 7K warm up. Are you doing any activations as part of that warm up? an activation is where if you're warming up, it's sort of like a zone one, zone two sort of spin. know, an activation is going sort of beyond that more up into your threshold territory and beyond to sort of prime you, prime the muscles in a polite way before it becomes very unpolite in the event.
Yeah, yeah, I did actually. I did two, two activations. I didn't time them. didn't lap them. I just kind of went off by feel, but usually the activations that work for me are like 30 seconds seated, build to a high cadence, hard effort. So probably like over 500 Watts for 500 Watts for me for 30 seconds. So I just stay seated, find a good spot on the, on the ride in and just pedal in the same gear as almost as hard as I can for 30 seconds.
end up doing like 130, 140 RPM by the end of it. So that really works for me as an activation effort that doesn't fatigue at all because it's just, it's 30 seconds twice. So I just did that on the way in pretty close to the, pretty close to the start. And it was an awkward one because a few guys I was writing in with didn't do anything because this is like organization for the race is that we had a hundred and closer to hundred starters in our event.
you want to get there early to line up. you're not sliding up 200s. Um, we got there around half an hour before start time and we were 150th on the line. So we're well, well, well back. Um, so I was kind of glad that I did the activations because you do your warmup for 30, 40 minutes and then you sit there for half an hour before you have to go again. Um, those activations, I think I felt fine at the start. Um, I don't know what everyone else felt like or what everyone else did, but
Ryan Thomas (06:32.566) In my mind and everyone else who I told for the event was get a good 20 to 30 minutes. If you're to line up half an hour before you need a good warmup and a couple of activations to make sure when you get into that climb, your heart rate doesn't go to a, go to a peak within the first kilometer. Cause that'll you'll feel pretty average doing that. So that was kind of the strategy that half an hour before was you can get, build those nerves up a lot and they could, could tell the people around me were like getting real nervous and
Everyone was getting anxious and like old bikes and going to the toilet and everyone was getting real anxious, but I was, I was quite relaxed and just, just trying to enjoy the moment and taking videos and texting and just like trying to calm myself before that half an hour, before the stock on went off. Cause it was going to be quite a spicy start.
Yeah, okay. So talk me through, you know, the strategy and what transpired for the first effort. Because like any Fondo, you've got to look at, how long is it going to be, you know, and then, you know, how many efforts are involved and what are the efforts look like? Are the efforts, you know, like a, is it a sharp climb that goes for three minutes? Well, that's going to be a VO2 max effort. Is it going to be a long climb?
for 30 minutes or an hour, whether that's going to be a tempo effort or a sweet spot effort or maybe a threshold effort. So can you just tell us before the gun went off, maybe talk us through what was required for this particular event?
Yeah, so it's quite interesting in terms of demand. So it's literally five to 800 meters, I can't remember exactly. From start to the base of a 10 kilometer climb. So flat for 800 meters and you straight up a 10 kilometer climb, which I had done the event before. So I kind of knew the demands really well. So in my head, I knew how long it was going to take and I knew what the rest of the course looked like. So
Ryan Thomas (08:35.63) 10 kilometer climb. So if we think step back a little bit, when you're preparing for something or a fair event like this, you need to think about, I'd probably say three things is what's the actual course like what's the hills, descents, flats, turns, all that sort of stuff. Second thing is wind. What's the wind doing and how's that gonna play into your strategy, whether you're in a group or whether you're.
in a group behind just trying to do the fastest time you possibly can, where are you going to make the efforts to count? And third is the temperature on the day. what sort of, what sort of clothing are you going to wear? The course kind of determines that a bit as well. So the, the temperature on the day was one of the warmest days we had down there was 15 degrees on the start 25 by the end of the day. So was quite a really nice day. So didn't have to worry about any warm gear at all. It was pretty straightforward wind. was really windy.
So the prediction was 30K an hour winds and 70 kilometer an hour gusts of wind. So really, really windy. So everyone that I sent out an email to all my members, all the people doing it before. And in my email was like, had a screenshot of the course and this is the wind direction for every part of the course. So be prepared that the first 20 kilometers is going to be a headwind. like that it's not going to make much difference to being a little tack or you're to get a big difference.
big slipstream in the draft, it's going to be much easier in the wheel than in the headwind. Then you turn left into a crosswind and then it's a big tail all the way down to the coast and the coast, it's going to be really windy up and down. So that was, that was one of the big factors in terms of strategy and how to, how to prepare for this event and how to pace it. so course 10 kilometer climb straight out of the gate. And then you had 40 K in between the base of the second
base of the first climb and the base of the second climb. So you had 40 Ks of rolling terrain in pretty windy conditions to prepare for the second. Well, I'd say the main decisive part of the race is that second climb because it's comes closer to the end. So the first climb for our race, and I think it sounded like for a few other races, kind of neutralized because of the headwind. So, you know, if you haven't done much racing or been around much wind before,
Ryan Thomas (10:54.634) in an event, if it's a headwind up a climb, it slows everybody down. So the pure climbers can't go as fast up that climb. If it's a tailwind up a climb, pure climbers or a lot of people can go fast with less effect of draft behind them. So it's much better for a climber to have a tailwind up a climb. It's much better for non climbers to have a headwind up a climb because they can get the draft. So first climb from from a strategy perspective, when I told everyone was stay in the wheel.
use the draft, conserve as much energy as possible and try to stay around threshold under threshold if possible because you've still got a long way to go and then try and try and recover once you get over the top of that try and recover for that 40 to an hour 40 minutes to an hour in between until the second climb which is going to be quite difficult.
Now you fought because you got there half an hour beforehand, but obviously there were people must've got there 45 to an hour beforehand and were waiting for a much longer period just to get that front in that frontal position. But you made up a lot of spaces in that first, what is it? 800 meters leading into the climb. And then by the time you worked your way up at the start of the climb, you were sitting on 20th wheel.
Maybe an obvious question to some, for others, they may not know the answer. So I'm going to ask the question, why would you, if you're going to sit in the draft and sit in the wheel, why would you not just sit in 150th wheel, which is where you were at the start line, why did you spend a little bit of energy trying to get up to 20th wheel?
I knew that our race was the discrepancy between the best and the rest were going to be, it was going to be quite large. So for example, my threshold was 350. There was probably some people there with a 250 watt threshold. So that first climb is going to be 10 minutes difference between the fastest and the slowest rider. So if I was starting at a hundredth wheel, then there was going to be a lot of people dropping wheels and I was going to have to spend a lot more energy to stay with the leaders than I needed to.
Ryan Thomas (13:01.614) So I needed to be in my head. needed to be in the top 50 by the start of that climb because I thought about 50 people would make it over the top, which made up around 80 to 100 spots in that first 800 meters. Luckily, got to around 50th and then started working my way up with try to conserve as much as possible using the draft, using some experience from a bunch riding perspective to work my way up in the draft.
So the top 20 wheels. Okay. But it's a, it's a hard one to, I would say it's, that's the strategy. If you're aiming to win or finishing the front group in a grand Fondo, it's a bit of a different strategy. If you're. Writing to your own personal power or your rock, you are, you're unsure of how, whether you could actually keep up with the front group. It's a little bit different strategy. It's you don't want to spend too much energy in that first 800 meters because you're going to
after I start riding a VO2 car in the first two kilometers to stay with the front group. the first strategy for most people was let that try and line up as far close to the front as you can, because you want to benefit from the draft if possible. Go get to the bottom of the climb and try to ride anywhere from threshold to sub threshold. So that 90
90 to 100 % of your threshold is probably a good range depending on how comfortable you are and how fast, how deep you want to go up that first climb.
What's a good rule of thumb then for somebody who's doing a Fondo event and whether it's, know, Amy's and the first climb comes in the first kilometer or whether it's another event and the climb comes at, you know, 50 kilometers and they're with a group and then all of sudden they're getting stretched on the climb and they're not sure, you know, like should I be trying to hold on to the wheel or should I be, you know, dropping off? Because I feel particularly with people that are
Cam Nicholls (15:00.438) inexperienced with their own physiology and these events, it's very easy to overindex on a climb trying to hold onto wheels. And if you go too deep, then you're just destroyed for the rest of the ride. Or it's very hard to get back if you dig yourself a hole too deep. what's a general rule of thumb for those people to follow?
Two things that I worked with a couple of members on who were trying to go really hard up the first climb was you look at your peak power for that sort of duration. for example, if you're aiming for 25 minutes up that climb, what's your best 20 minute power in the last six months? What physiologically can you do at your best? Let's say it's 300 watts. Your best ever 20 minutes, 300 watts. And up that first climb,
a good thing to do for any experienced people on any climb. If you're doing a long climb or a short climb, pick that duration and figure out what your best is in the last six months or three months in training. If you lap the power and you have lap average power on your screen, you can see, well, my best is 300 and the first five minutes I've averaged 320. I cannot sustain this pace. I need to slow down because my best is 300 and I do the best if I'm going to do 20 watts higher than my best ever.
then I'm going to be suffering by the end. So if it's a long duration event, that's the best strategy because you don't want to do your best ever power on a, on a 20 minute climb in a four hour race, because you're going to, that's going to hurt and you're going to pay for it in the last hour. So using your peak, your, your peak powers for that duration is a really good indicator and probably take 10, 20 Watts off that. And that's a good target.
The other thing to do is if it's a long climb is thinking about your threshold and your threshold power. Let's use 300 Watts, for example. If your threshold is 300 Watts and let's assume you use critical power to find it. That power is essentially the maximum power you can sustain for 30 to 45 minutes. So if you lap lap your power on the start of the climb and you're doing over that threshold power, you don't pretty close to that threshold power and you know, it's going to be long. Think.
Ryan Thomas (17:23.086) Well, I'm going to do this, a maximum effort or I'm going to sustain the best power I possibly can for 40 minutes. And then I'm going to have to do 110 K. That's not going to be possible. So that's the, that's my mindset when I'm going into an event like that is what's my, where's my absolute limit. I need to be under that at any moment in time. And what's my threshold where, where do those two sort of sit and what can I physiologically do while still being able to do the rest of the event? Well,
Mm.
Do you look at, I know heart rate's a bit of a tricky one because for an event, obviously, where there's a factor and nerves are a factor and everyone's different as well. But so this is a bit of an anecdote from my personal experiences in events. So I know once, you know, if I'm in a long climb and I start pushing towards 180 beats, my max is kind of 184 to 185. Once I'm 180 and I'm spending a bit of time over 180,
If I spend more than a minute or two over 180 for a prolonged period, I know it takes me a long time to come back from that. And that's just from learning over the years, right? So that's not necessarily the case for everybody, but it's the case for me. And I think that's why the beauty of training and doing A
Thu, 23 Oct 2025 - 41min - 70 - How to Achieve World-Class Results on Just 8 Hours of Training Per Week
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, Cam Nicholls sits down with RCA Head Coach Ryan Thomas to unpack how Ryan managed to secure a top-5 finish at the Men's Fondo World Cycling Championships—while averaging only 8 hours of training per week.
Ryan opens up about balancing full-time coaching, family life with a young child, and the constant setbacks of illness earlier in the year. Despite the challenges, he pieced together a 12-week block of smart, targeted training that pushed his threshold power back up, sharpened his VO₂ max, and prepared him for the critical climbs on race day.
From the structure of his weekly sessions—VO₂ on-offs, threshold climbs, and tempo bursts—to the importance of communication with family, racing bunch rides for "real world" intensity, and carving out just one long ride each weekend, Ryan proves that you don't need pro-level hours to perform at a high level.
Whether you're a busy parent, full-time professional, or just looking to maximise your limited training time, this conversation is packed with practical takeaways to help you get fitter, faster, and more consistent on the bike.
Coaching with the RCA; https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.034) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined by RCA head coach, Ryan Thomas. And I've asked Ryan for this podcast because I'm impressed, Ryan. You've done over the last 12 weeks averaged eight hours of training time per week, which is not a lot. You've gone down to Lawn, Victoria, Australia and participated in the World Fondo Championships and completed a road race, was
130 kilometers, it? Yep, 130 kilometers in length on eight hours training per week and you're finished fourth or what you call a grass podium, which is bittersweet as you said previously, but it's an amazing result. And I think, you know, given the dynamic of, yeah, obviously you've got natural talent, but eight hours is still not a lot of time. And I believe...
Yes.
Cam Nicholls (00:55.822) knowing how you coach, you've obviously coached me before, you're the head coach at the RCA, you do it for a living. Your training is very effective, you're very smart with your training on your limited training time. So I wanted to go into detail on what you've been doing training wise over the last 12 weeks. And I know you've pulled up your training peaks there so we can be quite specific. Before we sort of start at that 12, you know, going back 12 week mark.
Can you give the listeners a bit of an idea on your age, the age group you are participating in, and just your personal dynamic at home, like what you're, you know, because it's not, you're not single. Yeah, you've got a fair bit going on, like a lot of people do. So, yeah, give us a little bit of a background on that. And then once you've done that, what you were doing, like before the 12 weeks started, because it's not like you've come off
I just want to make sure people realize it's not like you were doing big K's at the start of the year and you've had this huge base engine going in. It's more like you've been fighting gastro bugs and all sorts of stuff. yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself and your age group.
I've been down a lot.
Ryan Thomas (02:07.746) Yeah, so I'm 30 years old. I have a wife and a young son who's almost 18 months now. So that's 12 to 18 months. Anyone who has kids is quite challenging. They're growing and learning a lot and need a lot of attention. So, and hasn't always been in daycare. So I'm looking after him some days. So dynamic at home is quite busy along with.
Yeah, work being a full time coach at the RCA is takes takes a lot of hours as well. So trying to fit training around that I would just think about me as any other person with, so I'd say a semi flexible job. But working working full time with a young kid and wife and all the social stuff going on is, yeah, it's a hard balance. But yeah, I think a lot of people have have a very similar experience, especially a lot of members, members in the RCA. So
It was a challenge and.
Absolutely. Can I just before you move on, also confirm that your wife works as well. And the little one has been in and out of gastro. Wish you could call it gastro, couldn't you? Daycare. Yeah. little bit. And I know I kind of get out the popcorn. I'm a bit of a narcissist when it comes to this. Not narcissist. What's the word? Massacacist or something like that. When I see other people suffering when they're having a young kid because
Yes.
Cam Nicholls (03:34.452) I reckon I had gastro 40 times between the ages of 30 and 40 while my kids were going through daycare to kids. And I was just always sick and it was always disrupting my cycling. And I know that you've had to face a fair bit of that this year as well.
Yeah, well, was so much so at the start of the year, we pulled him out of well, mid a couple months into the year, we pulled him out of the daycare he was in, because it was so bad. And we removed him. So he was he was out of daycare for a few months there, which was even more challenging on training. And that's where that was before the 12 weeks, thankfully, before this, because it kind of locked in at that moment. But before that, it was even more juggling, because yeah, I was having to look after him share the
share the dad and mom load between us and when we weren't working, one of us was looking after him. but just before that 12 weeks sort of kicked in, then he was back in a daycare and the new daycare, fingers crossed has been unreal. I haven't actually been sick since, so that might rub you the wrong way, but.
Now you've said it, you'll get sick next week. Just touch some wood. So what were you doing, like just at a high level, don't spend too much time here, but like what were you doing before the 12 week block started?
Uh, yeah. So while the start of the year from like two or down under was a like, would go back to then, because it's kind of when I started thinking about this really, it was like, it's going to be 10 months of 10 months of training. And I was like, I'll use two or down under the set a bit of a base. And then all the sickness happened. All of it got it all. Um, so March was pretty much no writing. Like I've looked at my training pigs performance management chart now. And it was, yeah, I was down to 30 CTL. Um,
Ryan Thomas (05:22.99) by April, is very, very little, basically not writing at all. And then the next few months was very similar. I was just in and out, in and out, in and out, sick, not sick, just trying to maintain, keep a little bit of fitness. And then around sort of June, that was kind of the period where it all eased up for us at home. So I could start a locked in consistently. And I was in my head, I was like four months, I need to.
This is it. And my wife was really supportive and she knew that I was going to go and do this event and I'd. Pined a lot like investing quite a bit of money to get down there. It's not cheap. So it was like four months. I'm going to try and train when I can and get up early and do those sorts of things. for a month or two, my mindset was I need to ride four to four days a week minimum. So that was kind of like my base. If you want to call it base, I wanted to do four rides a week minimum, which wasn't happening.
the few months before that four rides a week and yeah, focus around that low end energy system, do some tempo, do try and build a bit of threshold because I knew I needed to get my threshold high. So I looked at, knew the cause cause I'd done it the year before. So kind of knew where I needed to be and what I need, what sort of power I needed to be doing. And in my head, my first, my first mindset was get my threshold up. So I need my threshold to be back at pretty close to where it has been previously.
in order to put the layers on top of that in the final six to eight weeks.
I like just to go back on something that you said. You spoke to your wife or your partner and you said, you're going to do this event. It was important to you. I don't know if you said that, it sounded like you. Yeah, you're kind of assumed and that you were going to be focused on it. And I think that's really important because I think a lot of people, I've been guilty of this in the past, particularly going back
Ryan Thomas (07:10.926) We did.
Cam Nicholls (07:22.958) into my, you when I first started racing my early thirties, you just, you know, you don't set those expectations and it's all a bit of a burden and it's a bit of the unknown. and, you know, I think as well, specifically, if you're only targeting one or two events a year, which I think is a really good way to do it when you're busy with a family, you've got, you know, two, one to two, three to four month blocks in the year. And then the rest of the time you kind of just.
do whatever and you're not so focused on it. But if you're doing it like that and you sit down with your partner and you express the importance of it, then they're on board as well. And there's no guilt when you're doing it. Everyone's aligned and obviously you step up to the plate in other areas. And I used to do the same as well. But I think just it's all comes back to communication, communicating. I even now do it with my family. I'm like, I'm training for Grafton in Varela side of the year everyone, just so you know, I'm gonna.
but be a little bit more fatigued and tired, maybe grumpy at times. Although I feel probably for that event. So I wasn't grumpy. surprisingly that, you know, the afternoon grumps on, after you've done a five hour ride on a Saturday. but like, I, I don't just tell my partner, I tell my kids who are now old enough to absorb it. I'll tell my parents. and that's pretty much those who are close to me, just so they all know that the next three months are important training wise. And yeah, that, you know, there's the, once you've, once you've sort of like expressed it,
Everything just there's less tension when you're going and doing your training I find.
Yeah, especially personally for me, like I, my wife works every second Saturday. So I usually race on a Saturday, but every second, I know that every second Saturday I can still feel guilty leaving the house for four or five hours. But like that's my, that's my four or five hours to get my long ride, my quality done. And I don't have to feel anxious or rushing back home to help with the help with the young one. so it's like carve out a specific amount of time, maybe one day on a weekend, five hours and
Ryan Thomas (09:23.266) That's your time. That's you don't have to feel anxious or feel worried that you're the team down. It's yeah, if you if you set those boundaries, definitely helps.
Yeah. And obviously we're going to get into more of this as we go through this chat, but I think that's one people don't recognize as well really to get fit for a Fondo event like this. You don't need to be doing multiple long rides per week. As long as you've got kind of like one day where you can go do three, four, and you might even push up to five hours, but you three, four hours once a week. That's great. That's all you, all you need. And you can work around that. That that's your kind of, you know, durability ride or your endurance ride.
You don't need to do that two or three times a week, which I think there's a bit of misconception about.
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
So 12 weeks, you're 12 weeks out. You've been riding consistently four days a week for about a month. You've been focused on building the aerobic energy system, doing some tempo stuff. I assume doing maybe a bit of sweet spot stuff. When you start getting specific, what are you now doing? Are you ramping up to five days a week? Are you doing more time?
Cam Nicholls (10:36.43) What type of interval sessions are you doing? What type of recovery sessions are you doing?
Yeah, so my my golf or Frequency was still four days a week. So I was realistic on that if I got five in then awesome But I was pretty pretty realistic that four days a week is probably going to be my limit And in within those four days, knew that every second week I'd be able to get one long one with a racing on Saturday and then on the on the opposing week then I'd probably get another one a long one in on the Sunday and
maybe another one during the week if I start work late. But four days a week was kind of my minimum. When around the 12 week period started, I was pretty happy with what I'd done. So I've done a a few threshold efforts and a few little tests just to figure out where I was at. And I was probably like 20, maybe 30 watts under the threshold that I wanted, but I knew that would come up in the 12 weeks. I was pretty happy that I could ride pretty close to
to where I needed to at the start of that 12 weeks. And I've done a couple of hard VO2 efforts that were well under where I needed them to be, but I needed to push myself to see what, I use the 12 week mark as like, what do I need to improve on? Where do I need to go? And knowing my body, I know that if I can do 400 Watts for a certain amount of time, for example, then I'm good for that. I'm good for my VO2. Or if I can only do 370, then I'm like, well.
VO2 needs to lift because I know in a race that 400 watts is kind of like you spend a fair bit of time around that 400 watt mark in that age group and in an event like that. So I knew that my VO2 needed to be really high. So I kind of focused a lot on that.
Cam Nicholls (12:24.043) What's your weight just for those power to weight geeks out there?
I'm 70 kilos, anyway, 68, 70, 70, 70 at the moment, sell 70 on race day. And I usually a good threshold for me is around 350 watts, 355 watts.
watts per kilo was, let's look it up now, divided by say, five watts per kilo. And your bigger efforts that you need to sustain for two or three minutes here and there, which is 400 watts, is what's that watts per kilo? 400 divided by 5.7, 5.8.
Bob exactly.
Ryan Thomas (13:05.198) Yeah. So yeah, I ended up being, I ended up getting quite strong in the end. But that's kind of where I knew what I needed to do. Yep. But when I started the 12 weeks, was, I did a, I did a test and I was around 335 critical power. So I was, I knew I was about 20 Watts off what I needed to. And last year for Amy's for a bit of context on the first climb, I did 370 Watts, 365 Watts for 20 minutes. So
In my head, I was like, that was really difficult. And the dynamic was different because it was just a normal fun day. wasn't a world championships. It wasn't other teams there and stuff. But in my head, I knew that that's probably this event was going to be harder. So in my head, I was like, I need I want to be able to do 380, 380 watts, 20 minutes was my goal. I was like, that's that's the number I need to hit everything else. I'll figure it out. Like 380 for 20 was that's all I was thinking about.
was being able to do that. Cause I knew that that and the second climb were the critical points of the event. And if I couldn't do that, I wasn't going to be able to make a difference on those clients, which is where I wanted to make a difference. So that was my, that was kind of my mindset. Um, and I knew that I was comfortable, comfortable with getting, getting up there if I could get some good VO to into my, with four days of training a week was my, my theory for the 12 weeks going in.
was I need to get one really hard VO2 session in. my, because I have so much experience with doing these type of VO2 efforts, I hadn't done a lot of 3015s myself in the past. I was always a 4020 hero. I love 4020s. 4020s were my bread and butter whenever I was racing 10 years ago. Just loved them. And I knew that they worked really good for me. But I've only got a shorter climb where I live now. So 3015s was a bit more efficient.
So I just did once a week for probably six, six to eight weeks. just did a set of 30, 15 or really hard via two set. Um, and I essentially, was just emptying the tank. Like I know where my body's at. So I was just going as hard as I could. Like I knew what sort of power roughly I could do for that sort of duration, but I was kind of using it as a benchmark, just going full stick for 30 seconds, recover and just back it up.
Ryan Thomas (15:20.684) from a racing background, I know that I can do that. It's different for a new person doing those sort of intervals, but I know that I can kind of stay seated and go as hard as I can and then repeat it for six to eight minutes. Okay. So that was one of my key session, key VO2 building session each week.
And you started that like from 12 weeks out or more like from, you know, eight to 10 weeks ago.
I did a couple of trial, like I did a couple of testing VO two efforts just before the 12 weeks, like on the indoor trainer, cause it was around around winter time, 12 weeks out from the event. So I was still on the indoor trainer. So I did a couple when I was really time crunched, like a 40, 40 minute, 45 minute session with a couple of three minute hard start VO twos, something like that, just to test the waters to see where that power was sitting.
but from 12 weeks, that was pretty much where I started doing my proper on-off hard efforts.
Yeah. So 30, 15 session, can you just break it down? Like, obviously it will vary as you progress to get stronger towards the event, but like how many reps are you doing and how many sets and what's 30 is all out. What's 15 is it, is it, you're spinning in zone one or you're trying to stay at a more of a zone two pace.
Ryan Thomas (16:39.182) What was that? So it's for me, I did a couple on the trainer and I just didn't feel like I was getting enough out of them because I couldn't put out the power I wanted to. So for me, I have a, I have roughly a six minute climb within five minutes, my house. So what most of the time I would, or if I had a bit more time, I would go to a longer eight minute climb. but I have a six minute one that's pretty fast. So I do a 10 minute warmup with a couple of activations, a couple of 30 second.
above the power I wanted to for the 30 15s, roll into the climb and just hit the lap button and go hard for 30 seconds. I was aiming for like anywhere from four, 400 to 450 depending on what sort of day I was doing. And then my 15 seconds was usually around high zone too. I know that I can keep the power on with experience with these, but anywhere from 240 to 280 in the, in the 15 seconds off to keep the power.
I was doing, yeah, around six minutes most of the time. And then I would roll back down the climb and it ended up being like a four minute recovery. So it's not like the perfect session. And I think it's a, like, it's a takeaway from, from that is that like a, if you look at the research, it's like going to 12, 30, 15 and you have three minutes recovery and it's like perfect on a dot. And a lot of people, a lot of people would do that sort of session and like, missed an effort or my recovery was a bit longer. I failed today. It's like,
No, it's if you think about what you're actually trying to get out of it is it doesn't really matter the duration. One missing one effort or not doing one effort perfectly or having a bit extra recovery doesn't matter too much. It's pushing yourself to your limit in the effort and going as hard as you can. That's kind of where you're to get the benefit.
Yeah, I think as well a lot of people get the 3015s or the 4020s wrong because they come back to like a really easy spin or they almost don't pedal at all. But I think the research is saying that you should be at about 50 % of what your effort is. So if your effort was at say 400 watts, you should come back down to roughly 200 watts.
Ryan Thomas (18:41.39) Yes, yeah, 50 % of your VA to match 50 to 60 % of your VA to max is kind of what the research says. Yeah, that's what they use for their benchmark.
Yeah. And I think the idea is that by doing that, you're more likely to stay physiologically in tha
Thu, 23 Oct 2025 - 32min - 69 - Wrap Up Chat from Fondo World Champs 2025 (Lorne, VIC Australia)
Summary
In this general-discussion episode, we unpack the 2025 World Champs Fondo edition of Amy's Gran Fondo in Lorne, Victoria—what the day felt like from the start corrals to the coastal finish. We cover the course flow (early climb, rolling mid-section, fast finale), the wild wind and sketchy descents, bunch dynamics, and how the event logistics stacked up this year.
Inside the episode:
Event vibe & logistics: Registration, start grid, road closures, aid stations, neutral support, and crowd energy.
Course & conditions: Key climbs, crosswinds/tailwinds along the coast, and how weather shaped the groups.
Racing vs. riding: What decided the front, why some riders waited vs. chased, and takeaways for non-racers aiming for a PB.
Safety & skills: Managing crosswinds and high-speed descents without burning matches.
Fuel & kit notes: Practical nutrition/hydration for 3–4 hours, gearing, tyres/pressures, and wheel depth choices that made sense on the day.
Lessons for next year: Pacing checkpoints, where to position before the first climb, and simple tweaks to turn fitness into a result.
Whether you were there, tracking friends, or planning your first Fondo, you'll get a grounded debrief plus actionable tips to make your next Amy's (or any Gran Fondo) smoother, faster, and more fun.
Hire a coach with the RCA: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.098) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined by the head coach of the RCA, Ryan Thomas. And Ryan has just been at, or just been in Lorne, Victoria, Australia, which hosted the World Fondo Championships in conjunction with the Amy Gillett's ride. And for this podcast, seeing we're only a few days since that event has occurred, I just wanted to have a bit of a debrief with Ryan about the event. Because I know we coached a lot of people, Ryan, for the event. lot of people had some great results as well.
But you were there, you experienced it. I know a lot of people were following it on social media. So I thought, let's just do a bit of a podcast about the event. We're going to talk about your results specifically in the next podcast, because you actually only train for eight hours per week average for 12 weeks and finished fourth on the grass podium there. got on the podium, which is pretty amazing, given your training time. So we will talk about that in the next podcast. And then the podcast after that.
I wanted to talk about your pacing strategy as well for Fondo events. So I think you nailed that, particularly given your training time. But for this one, we're just going to have a bit of a waffle about Amy's in the experience. So let's start from the start. You flew in from Queensland and you get to the Melbourne airport. What happens next?
wait, waiting for a few of my mates. so it's the vibe of the vibe of the world champs was really cool because I actually went down last year and I went down just with one other, one other mate. and we did the event and it was, it was a good vibe and we were just hanging out and having fun, but went down with like five or six mates this time. So it was just a, yeah, just a good, called it the bros bro's trip. We just went down for a bro's trip and
rode her bikes on the Great Ocean Road and yeah, cruised around and then had bit of a race in there.
Cam Nicholls (01:51.052) Nice. you got down, so the event was on Sunday, you got down on Friday.
We got down on Wednesday, actually. the kind of schedule was spread out. So there was a time trial on the Thursday. There was a team relay on the Friday, which we can talk about. Saturday was a free day and then the race was on a Sunday. So we got down there because a couple of our, a couple of our mates are doing the time trial on the Thursday. So we wanted to get down Wednesday, run the course and then go and support them on the Thursday.
Yeah, okay. So you got down on Wednesday and you rode the whole course, did you?
No, just the time trial course. I was familiar with the course, but a few of the other guys wanted to be there to ride the climb a couple of times and just, just enjoy five days, five days away with the bros. Yeah.
So Thursday was the time trial. Did you see RCA member Alan Nelson in the 65 to 69 category take out the world title again?
Ryan Thomas (02:55.47) I saw that it happened. wasn't there in the moment. Unfortunately, I wish I was. wish I was in lawn to see it happen. It's a pretty regular occurrence for him. He's got six world titles, I think now. So he's very familiar with the process, but it was very cool to see that I had a, I had a chat with him after and broke down his power and saw what he did. And he looked like he did a really good performance because he was there for a week or two before just learning the course and really getting dialed in. So
who went all in
Are we allowed to talk about his power?
I think so, well yeah he... Yeah I think so, he...
think you'd be okay with it.
Cam Nicholls (03:35.694) I'll ask him before this podcast goes live and if he says no, we'll beep this out and if your people aren't hearing beeps, you know he said okay.
He just sent me a couple of screenshots of it and I looked at, I think I looked at his Strava pacing as well. But essentially the difference between his 10 and 20 minute power was quite significant for a 30 minute time trial. So that tells me that he went out quite hard and he said that he went out really hard. So his 10 minute power was 350 and his 20 minute power was 320 or 310.
That doesn't sound like Alan.
Ryan Thomas (04:13.486) So there was like a 30, 40 watt difference across with only 10 minutes difference. So that's, um, there was a couple of freewheeling decents in there cause there was a couple of technical corners, but there shouldn't have been that much of a difference between a 10 and 20 minute power for a 30 minute course. would, you would imagine. And not if I was going to, if I was going to pace it and set, set a power target for any athletes, would want those to be very similar. Um, but he was, he was by far the strongest on the day and won by.
30 seconds. So I think his strategy worked out well in the end.
Yeah, yeah, you can't really fault it when you walk away with the gold medal, can you? So
No, no, he's still critical of himself though. He's a racer so he's like, I went out too hard but yeah, that's all good.
So what was his 30, if it was a 30 minute time trial or what, do know what his 30 minute power was roughly? What was the?
Ryan Thomas (05:04.43) No, because he just showed me his peak powers. I didn't see his average average for the event I think he hides his power on Strava, which is controversial in itself
He's a typical cyclist, isn't he? Yeah, so he actually won, not only did he win his category, the 65 to 69, but he's also faster than the two age groups below him. I just, I love his story because it just gives you so much, it's inspirational. Like I'm mid forties and we get inquiries at the RCA often now. And this is not one word of an exaggeration.
Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (05:42.318) I'm just wondering if I'm, you know, like, okay to be coached because I'm over 40 now. like the, the theme of the, the, the inquiry is like, they're over the hill. And I'm like, I often linked to Alan and I said, have a look at this guy. He's like doing his best, best power numbers. He's training in Europe during, you know, uh, you know, our winter Europe summer, you know, he's, he's, he's super fit, super healthy. And you know, he's 65 turning 66. It's incredible.
Yeah. And that's kind of what the grand Fondo world is about, right? Like it's, it's everyone who in their own right can go and perform against people, their own age and just show, show that it doesn't really matter what, what sort of age you are. can go and perform and perform well.
Yeah, so time trial was on Thursday. What happened on Friday?
Friday was a team relay. So in your country and I'd prepared, you have to enter a team relay yourself. So it wasn't organized by the nations. was, or you had to find a team and enter a team yourself. So I saw it immediately and was like, this would be cool to do. Like it'd be cool to have an Australian team win or on the podium or whatever happens. But I found four really, really strong writers who I knew and there was
They have some rules around the team relay, which was kind of interesting. Tactically was you needed a male and female of any age. You needed a male or female over 40 and a male or female over 50. So you needed to comprise a team of, yeah, a couple of older people and a couple of young, strong, strong male and female essentially. So I was obviously going to race myself because I was super keen to be involved. found a, I found a, um,
Ryan Thomas (07:28.878) young female who was keen to race at a, at a over 40 who I knew from Brisbane who was going down and then Alan was my first choice over 50. Cause he's the new RCA and I knew it was a bit of a record. So he knew it was going to be down there. So yeah, it was really cool. we had very strange format. Yeah. What a strange format. Think about athletics four by 400 meter relay. So mass star relay. So
So what is the right?
Ryan Thomas (07:56.846) Everyone the first you have four four writers and you choose what order they want to go in. So I was the team manager. So I selected what order I think would be best based on what other people would do and finishing and starting. So 22 teams lined up altogether. The first writer was selected. You do three laps of a Criterium course in Geelong, which had a really fast downhill and then a bit of an uphill. So it was
had a bit of everything. So it was like six kilometers, just under six K each rider. So the first rider went off, did three laps. After three laps, they crossed the line. And then the second rider went, they did three laps. Third rider came across the line, third rider went, and then I was the final rider. And then you finish in the first, first team across the line was a winner.
Right, how'd you go?
Yeah, we went really well actually. so strategy wise, sent, I sent my 40 plus first, cause I knew he could handle himself in a group. So 22 riders had to go, had to be able to ride within a group and still go hard. So he finished, he was second or second or third across the line, which was really good. our young female was Salzy, from Brisbane and she did really well. First, she's very new to cycling and she performed well. She came across the line fourth, I think.
In the end with a couple of males in that age group in that wave as well So it was really good and then Brendan came across the line in I think he was he was fifth and sixth and then I was There was a group of three off the front when they when they tagged me So I came through and it was like ten seconds to the group of three off the front And in my mind, I was like, I just gotta go as hard as possible to catch him I want to catch them and the podiums gone. So yeah
Ryan Thomas (09:44.44) probably a bit of a rookie era from my part because there was another guy who's a pro veloracer who was off the same time as me and he started just behind me. And I basically went as hard as I could for 30 seconds to try to catch the front. Didn't quite catch
He was probably trying to catch you, so you were both caught. We should have worked together.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I had a look behind and he would have waited and wouldn't have done 700 watts of the first 30 seconds. Probably would have had a bit bit extra energy left in the tank. But we ended up catching we got together after three quarters of a lap caught the front three a lap and a half in so we had a lap and a half to go. Bit of tactical sales five of us five of us off the front. But I have to go and also I was like, well, I'm racing for the win here. I was
cook by that point because we've gone so hard to catch but got to the lap and a half to go and the Polish team had won the year before this guy was an absolute weapon. He attacked us and I had nothing to go and he just rode away from us from a lap and a half and he ended up winning and then there's three Aussie teams left for second and third and fourth. So we came into the last corner was like an uphill sprint. We came into the corner third or fourth on the road. I was like, I'm just
That's the podium is just there. can't, can't let it go. So I ended up crossing the line in third. we're in the team really, which is cool. Yeah. So we've got a medal. Nice. Nice to get a medal from, that.
Cam Nicholls (11:08.553) that. That's great.
Cam Nicholls (11:14.434) Yeah. And then what happened on the Saturday?
Saturday was a rest day or activation day, collecting number days. So nice chill. Just went, yeah, went for a nice ride around lawn. a couple of members on the climb doing activations and got together and made sure collect numbers and had a coffee and sat down and relax for the rest of the day. You're getting ready for Sunday.
So before the event, long would you ride? Like, so how long did you ride for on Saturday as you kind of pre-warm up? Even though you'd obviously had a bit of a crack on, you'd almost done more than an activation on Friday, it sounds. How long did you ride for on before the event?
Yeah. So it was a bit different from what I actually set members to do because they didn't do an all out effort for seven minutes on Friday. Um, but I, was like 17 kilometers into the main climb into lawn for us. Cause we were staying a bit out. So we just cruised in, went up the climb, came back. It was like a two hour nice, easy ride. did one effort, one effort in there just to keep the legs firing. Yep. Um, but a little bit different normally for what I would set, but I was pretty.
I'm just, was there to have a bit of fun and wanted to ride in the lawn and just nice two hour cruise was good.
Cam Nicholls (12:30.018) Yeah, nice. did the, you know, you're there with the boys and you're there for a few days before Sunday, like, you know, there's a lot of nice pubs in Lawn. Did you pop in and have a couple of cheeky beers somewhere or you were good?
what did we on, on Wednesday, we had a beer when we got there. went to, went to dinner and had a beer and had a, only one beer. yes. But I was, it was just cause we were there for short amount of time. I wasn't opposed to having two or three. but now after that, we were pretty, pretty serious because Thursday was busy with the time trial. And then we had the, I had a beer on Friday after the, after the team relay on the way back, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That's well deserved, though, Sam.
Okay.
Long's a beautiful city.
Cam Nicholls (13:16.312) So talk me through Sunday and just the atmosphere and people. And because I know, you know, we do, we've got a newsletter we send out every Friday called the Friday training trend. If you're listening and you're not on that email, just go to our website and you can subscribe on the homepage to that newsletter. But you were so, I could tell from the way you wrote that newsletter that you were so excited about being there. And obviously, you know, you've,
done a lot of cycling over the years. You've ridden at an elite level in Australia. You've ridden at a continental level overseas. You've done a lot of events. I could just tell the excitement. It's hard when somebody's been riding for that amount of time. It's hard to get the dopamine going because you've kind of been there, done it all before and probably multiple times. But I could tell just by reading your newsletter, your dopamine was firing, Ryan. talk me through why that was.
Yeah, it was a bit of just like hanging out with the boys and everyone was super keen. We were just having a good time. But the atmosphere whenever you're whenever you're riding around, there was like hundreds of cyclists just riding around like it's just cool to see a lots of cyclists getting around and like you get to hang around the TT and then the team really honestly, like my mates like came in and watched and they came out of the team really like absolutely pumping like probably more than me and I was in the podium like
And a couple of my, who I was on the, on the podium with like, were absolutely cheering, like the vibes really high and just the atmosphere around that really that kickstarted it from, from Friday. And that's kind of when I wrote, I was writing the training trend, preparing for that. Like it was, it was not the atmosphere was awesome. but then when he got there on Sunday, like when you're looking at the start list and there's 200 people for each, each age group and you got the Amy's and Gillett.
actual normal Fondo. They've got 2000 people. So you like you prepared for 4000 people just to be there. And you rock up on the day and there's just bikes everywhere. It's just cool. Like I, you go to an event I was did Amy's last year and it was a bit, it was kind of similar. Like Amy's is always a really cool event. but this was like on a double the scale. So it was just cool seeing all the different nations there and you hear all the foreign languages and you know that everyone's serious like
Ryan Thomas (15:40.558) everyone's locked in. No one's going there just to, to, just to get around like in the world, the world champs. So everyone's there really serious. And yeah, I liked that. I liked that sort of racing atmosphere. And I wasn't really nervous at all, to be honest. I was just kind of just enjoying it and got there and knew that I'd done bigger races before. So I was just like, Oh, just go and enjoy it, have, have some fun and to soak, soak up the atmosphere.
So just confirming, think you might have just said it wrong incorrectly. You said there were 200 in your age group, mean 2000?
200 in my age group 200 in in each age group. So was 2000 in total for Yes, yeah, so I think the biggest age group I did it I ran it through Ran it through the biggest age group was the 50 to 54 and I think they had 213 right
Okay, I get it. I get it.
Ryan Thomas (16:43.188) And it's pretty, quite a few.
There was a photo that you shared at the start and it looked like there was a lot of people and you were a fair way back. Just talk us through that one.
Yeah. So how, how it works is a, it's just a pen. So you can line up whenever you want. Like it's, there's no, there's no, or there's priority for people who have podiumed in your qualifying event. So if you finished top three and you're qualifying event, there was a separate pen that you got access to, and you didn't have to line up half an hour before to get a good spot.
That sounds like a good pen to be in.
It's worth it's worth, especially for this course, because the climb starts after one kilometer. So you don't have much time, but yeah, we got, got there with like 25 minutes before start time, I think. And there was 150 people lined up in front of me. So I was at the very back of the pen. And I was, I was like, at that point, I was like, well, it's going to be this first comment is going to be quite difficult. I was like,
Ryan Thomas (17:45.014) As soon as I got there, that's my first thought. And then my second thought was, can't do anything about it now. I'll just do the best you can to get as far up again on before the climb and just go with it.
How did they let the age groups go? Was there a significant portion of time or did you end up writing with everyone?
five minutes between each age group. And then they bulked together a couple of the women's age groups were together and then over 60s were a couple two age groups were together each. So it was quite a different tactical talking to a lot of our members and one of our female members who was, yeah, it's a good shot for a good result when she ended up getting a really good result. There was a bit of tactics in play because the age groups behind were catching so like they're
Okay.
Ryan Thomas (18:32.93) Dragon riders cross and then male age groups are catching
Thu, 23 Oct 2025 - 27min - 68 - Why Road Bike Sizing Charts Don't Work (Bike Fitter Explains)
Summary
In this conversation, expert bike fitter Neil Stambry discusses the inadequacies of road bike sizing charts and emphasizes the importance of individual differences in bike fitting. He explains how factors like flexibility, body proportions, and personal comfort can significantly affect the choice of bike size and model. The discussion highlights the necessity of professional bike fitting to ensure optimal comfort and performance for cyclists.
Bike Fit Fundamentals: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/bike-fit-fundamentals/
15% Off code (first 10 people): RCAYouTube15BFF
Takeaways
Road bike sizing charts often fail to account for individual differences. Flexibility and body proportions play a crucial role in bike fitting. Two cyclists of the same height may require different bike sizes. A good quality bike fit is essential for comfort and performance. Bike models can vary significantly in geometry, affecting fit. Self-assessment of body proportions may not be sufficient for accurate fitting. Professional bike fitters can help identify the right geometry for cyclists. Understanding one's own physiology is key to finding the right bike. BikeFit Fundamentals offers a structured approach to bike fitting. Comfort on a bike is vital for long-distance rides.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Road Bike Sizing Charts 03:06 The Limitations of Sizing Charts 05:46 Understanding Individual Differences in Bike Fitting 08:52 The Importance of Professional Bike Fitting
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.046) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined by expert bike fitter, Neil Stambry, and we're gonna be talking about why road bike sizing charts don't work. Just be aware this chat is also intended for YouTube. So please excuse any visual references. Let's get into it. All right, so Neil, recently I wanted you to write an article for the RCA website on a blog about road bike sizing charts. And you're like, hang on a sec.
They don't work, so I'm writing an article. like, oh, we should make a video about this then.
We should yeah deceptively simple question with a really annoying long-winded answer, so let's dive into it What is a road bike sizing chart so look some of the manufacturers you look on their website And you'll see a chart. It's got a list of like
like you.
Cam Nicholls (00:50.904) Bites of sizes, small, medium, large.
Here how large this is how tall you are. This is the frame you need then you're okay She's all right better go and get that medium or whatever that is Why don't they work some of them have are really quite detailed some of them have like
Obviously can work because they're there and you know.
They can sort of work. They can sort of work. I'll explain. They're very hit and miss. There's plenty of, there's enough people out there that fall, even though they fall into one of the correct ranges for the correct height, they should go for a different size bike. We'll try and nut out a little bit about why that is. Some of them are a bit more detailed. They have multiple data points. A lot of them just have your height and this is the one you should have, which is obviously insane. But if you've got really long legs or short legs or something, it can totally change the frame geometry that you'd look for.
Well, it's like an anecdote as well before you go. I rode a 56 for maybe five years. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm right on the border of a 56 and a 54 and I do have short legs. Yes. And then I went to a 54 and my life changed.
Neill Stanbury (01:47.822) Yeah, you're unusually low seat height for a 56 centimeter frame. It'd be you're right in the realms of a 54. Yeah, so yeah, you're great example. Yeah, just just here. So Yeah, why don't they work? Let's use let's use two hypothetical twin brothers, right? They both got exactly the same height
They both got exactly the same leg length, same arm length, right? So they're falling within some of these, let's say they fall in the range for a 54 centimeter race geometry frame. One of them has got hips which don't flex up beyond 120 degrees because he inherited a different set of genetics from his mum versus his dad, which means that his hip joints are particularly immobile. In addition, he's been sitting at a desk eating Twinkies for 20 years and he's 15 kilos overweight. He's got a bit extra around the middle and he's all hunched over because he's an
and the other guy is a supple yoga teacher who flexes around a lot and he's 15 kilos lighter and he's got amazing hip mobility. So these two guys have the same skeletons, right? But vastly different flexibility levels and vastly different, in particular, hip mobility levels. And hip mobility, as your knee is coming up to the top of the stroke, is one of the primary determinants of how much drop you will tolerate to the front end. So if your hips can come right up, you've got amazing mobility in your hip joints, it's likely that you're gonna ride in a more
deeply flexed position preferentially compared to a more upright position relative to your identical twin brother who sits at a desk and eats Twinkies. So what this will mean is that the guy who's really flexible who's got amazing hip mobility his drop to the bar might be 50 to 80 millimeters more sort of severe than the guy who sits more upright because he's got the extra weight and his hips are not so flash. So you might choose a bike with a 30 or 40 millimeter lower stack in the front end which immediately moves you from
something like Specialized Roubaix which is one of the one of the least aggressive geometry endurance frames on the market. It's a really short tall bike. We often sort of recommend these to older guys who sit quite upright, people who don't have a lot of capacity for reach and drop in the front end and they're a fantastic bike for that. You might go for the you might you know the the guy who's the accountant he might go for one of those but the guy who's the yoga teacher who's really hyper flexible he might need 50 80 millimeters more drop you know a normal sort of
Neill Stanbury (04:06.416) drop number from the highest point of the seat to the center of the bar, you might be looking at a 54 centimeter bike. A normal number, about 100 millimeters, which is about what my drop is, right? But the really inflexible guy might need 50, and the really flexible guy might need 130. Huge differences in the stack. So obviously the flexible guy, he's never gonna be able to get the bar low enough if he buys a Roubaix to be comfortable. And conversely, the guy's very, very stiff. He's not gonna be able to get the bar high enough if he buys a tarmac, or specialised.
So this is a great hypothetical example, just one of the many things of what can make these charts not work very well. They're just looking at...
You're referencing two separate bikes, just playing devil's advocate here, you're referencing two separate bikes here, not referencing the same bike.
Yeah, so you could you could go for like the what I mean is that the the recommendations for the sizing could be so far off that not only are you looking at changing the size of the frame but the actual the entire model of the frame Yep, yep, so you know
Yeah, okay, so it's almost deceiving. So somebody's like, oh well I'm actually a medium here but you actually know you should be a medium in a different bike altogether.
Neill Stanbury (05:17.046) Yeah, so you might have something that's like long and low, know, let's use your tarmac as an example And then you've got your rubay, which is short and tall So you might be the flexible guy might be on a 52 centimeter tarmac with a hundred and thirty millimeter stem because he can get out and down to that low front end and then not only is the the short, know, the inflexible guy with a bit of a gut not only is he on a rubay, completely different bike model that's really upright and comfortable in the front end and very tall but he's probably on a 54
With a shorter stem so not only are they different sizes with different componentry, but also completely different frame models Yeah, so yeah, I've seen situations where people have rocked up and they've they've looked at her I had a great example to use a great example. I had a young fella came down from northern Queensland last year I think it was And he bought a Madone, know 20 20 odd thousand dollar bike really expensive bike and he he walked in the door He had the shortest legs I've ever seen on anyone who was a bit he was about my height, but his seat height was
When we were done his seat height was 50 maybe 60 millimeters lower than mine because his legs were so short We couldn't get the seat low enough because the Medone has a certain amount of seat post travel before the goes into the frame and it blocks out We were 20 millimeters too high even with the seat as high as it could as low as it could possibly go There was no chance of him riding it and it was a 54 because he fell right into that range of the 54 with his height and I said mate you're much better suited with a 52 because we just can't get the seat low enough first of all, but even a
or a 49 would have been fine for that guy even though he's my height. you know limb length and all that sort of stuff and flexibility levels and arm length and torso length there's just so many things that come into it which mean that sizing charts can be very hit and miss. What's the solution?
Yeah, what's solution? That's what I was gonna ask.
Neill Stanbury (07:04.622) Solution is a good quality bike fit. Yeah, you've got to set your position up on your current bike such that you're comfortable and then extrapolate from the geometry of that. Forget about what you should be on because you're a certain height. Look at what you actually need in terms of the geometry and your bike fitter can help you out with that.
Can you self assess before deciding whether a bike sizing chart is gonna work? So for example, if you know all your limb, you know, your torso and your lower is standard and your flexibility is good, are you more likely to be served by these charts?
Possibly, possibly. But there's so many things you can't know about yourself. True. Yeah, like relative mobility levels in your hips compared to other people and all this sort of stuff. Yeah, it's very hit and miss.
Yeah, see I didn't know I had a hip impingement and I've been riding for 12 years before I came to see you.
Yeah, I mean not to harp on too much, but that is why my profession exists. It's one of the reasons my profession exists is to not only solve biomechanical problems and aches and pains and make you more comfortable, but also to get you precise correct geometry for your next bike.
Cam Nicholls (08:08.34) Yeah, and I am way more comfortable on that bike over there, which is the BMC Road Machine versus the one directly behind you because I'm more upright.
Yeah, yeah, I think I think when we looked at the geometry for the team machine are it was I think you had 10 millimeters or so more dropped than you than you had the time I'd fitted you before which was on an SLR one I think and then that one I think we found out that the bar center was about 15 or 20 millimeters higher and that's you know You were right on your edge with the SLR one that was a little bit too low and that's very nice. Yeah for long rides
Exactly. Yeah. All right. Well, if somebody is watching this and they're like, well, I wouldn't mind some support with actually understanding my physiology and what bike might work for me. You put something together called BikeFit Fundamentals.
Yeah, it'll be a good first step to get yourself in the ballpark with your fit so that you can then extrapolate from your current geometry of your current frame to a potential new purchase and make sure you get all the componentry right. Seven part course, mate, the link's in the description. We highly recommend it. It's been a really good thing. Thanks for time. No worries at all.
Fri, 17 Oct 2025 - 09min - 67 - Big Gains, Small Hours: Cycling Personal Bests on 5 Hrs/Week
Summary
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, expert bike fitter and sports physiotherapist Neill Stanbury discusses his recent performance improvements despite a reduced training load. He shares insights on the impact of dietary changes, weight training, and the importance of understanding insulin resistance in optimizing cycling performance. The conversation highlights how strategic adjustments in training and nutrition can lead to significant gains, even with limited time for workouts.
Takeaways
Achieving best performance on reduced training hours is possible. Dietary changes, including reduced sugar intake, can enhance performance. Weight training is crucial for improving cycling power. Intermittent fasting can help manage energy levels and cravings. Insulin resistance may affect performance and energy management. A balanced approach to training can yield better results than sheer volume. Listening to your body is key to optimizing performance. Incorporating strength training can lead to muscle gain and improved cycling. Energy management is critical for endurance athletes. Finding time-efficient training methods can enhance performance without burnout.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Performance and Training Dynamics 03:06 Dietary Changes and Their Impact on Performance 05:56 The Role of Weight Training in Cycling 09:04 Insights on Insulin Resistance and Energy Management 12:06 Optimizing Training with Limited Time 13:48 Conclusion and Reflections on Training Strategies
RCA Coaching: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.11) Welcome back to the RCA Podcast where today I am joined by expert bike fitter and sports physiotherapist, Neill Stanbury. Just be aware that this conversation is also designed for YouTube, so please excuse any visual references. Let's get into it. All right, Neil, I wanted to talk to you about your recent performance on the bike because like many people, like many RCA members, I would say you're in bit of an off season phase because we can't train 10 to 12 hours.
You know, all year, it just doesn't happen. So there are periods of the year where you go down to about four five hours per week, which is what you are in right now. Yet you went out and did a bunch ride recently and you achieved an all time best five minute power and an all time best or almost best 10 minute power. And for those familiar with chronic training load, your CTL, also known as, is about 40 at the moment, which equates to about five hours per week of riding versus normally when you're training
For something, you're doing about 8 to 10 hours per week. So how is it that you could go out and achieve all-time best numbers, 5 and 10 minutes is pretty significant, on 5 hours per week of training?
It's been really interesting for me. I don't talk a lot on our channel about the performance aspect of cycling because I'm more interested in the biomechanics and that sort of stuff. But this has been really, really interesting for me. we were talking about it extensively before we recorded this.
I thought there might be some interesting lessons in here for people at home who want to try this as well. So I'll tell you what I did and how this came about. But you're right, I did a bunch ride a couple of weeks ago with a bunch of guys who are way fitter and faster than me. And even sitting in the wheels and rolling the occasional turn, I managed to do an all-time best five minute power, about 340 watts, which for me is... Huge numbers, mate. 66 kilos at the most.
Cam Nicholls (01:49.098) Watch your weight, people will want to know your weight.
Powder weight wise, pretty solid.
Not terrible for an old bloke like me, especially an old bloke who's only riding four hours a week or so, and with no particular cycling talent either. But I managed to do that and I've never done, that's biggest number I've ever done for five minutes, which was really interesting because I've done almost no training.
Is this the A group or the B group? Was it? there you go.
Even rolled a couple of turns with Kavan Wiggo. Just a couple. So these guys are obviously much more powerful riders than me and especially on flat terrain. These guys have got 10 kilos, 15 kilos on me. you know I might be able to be up the front on hilly terrain but on flat terrain I really struggle against these kind of guys. So it's a huge challenge for me. So how did this come about? Now I started noticing earlier in this year that I was sort of waking up
Cam Nicholls (02:38.818) Fatigued more often than not I was jumping on the bike and I had sort of low energy levels that typical sort of mid-afternoon you're feeling sleepy that sort of thing and I thought you know there's a lot of things this could be but one of them is it could be the beginnings of some insulin resistance stuff going on so I've been reading a lot and listening to a lot of podcasts about About sugar and all that sort of stuff and I decided to make some changes to my diet and to my training mode to see what would happen to my body
I've always struggled to put on weight, right? I've been, ultrally, my entire life. I started lifting weights dedicated twice a week without fail. Twice a week doing lots of legs and a bit of upper body. And I slowly managed to put on, over that last sort six month period, about three or four kilos of pure muscle mass, which was helpful. So I'm about three kilos, maybe three and a half kilos heavier than I usually am, down at that 63 kilo mark.
gym sessions are twice a week and you're doing legs in both of those sessions and a little bit of upper body. What sort of sets and reps are you doing? out of curiosity.
Typically I'll do Bulgarian split lunges and single leg RDLs and I will do some Cossack squats or deep squats as well with like a goblet squat, that kind of thing. This is all just with hand weights and kettlebells. There's no gym equipment involved. I do it all myself at home. Three sets of about eight of the heavy ones and then if it's something like a Cossack squat with a 16 or 18 kilo kettlebell held in a goblet position, I will then do sort of probably three sets of 20.
okay. Quite high reps. That is high reps.
Cam Nicholls (04:11.52) Yep, it goes against the science. Mm-hmm. Although as Aaron the Strength and conditioning coach the RCA says sometimes you're just better off moving some stuff around. Yeah, which is what you know 20 reps as you're moving stuff around. really like
Yeah, so I'll do I'll do heavy like my single leg my single leg split lunges I'll be using a 22 kilo hand weight so on each leg and for that's a third of my body weight well Which is quite a lot and three sets of eight or three sets of ten of those sometimes four sets of eight And so I do a heavy heavy fit the starter then larger volume with lighter load for the other ones Nothing too complex there in addition to the weight sessions. I started doing one day a week of intermittent fasting
Now this is something I've never done before. It was really, really difficult in the beginning, but I was noticing that I was really craving carbohydrates a lot. And I thought it was just due to my training load, right? I was eating very clean rice, that sort of stuff for my carbohydrates, oats, that sort of stuff. I was eating very clean carbs, not a lot of pure sugar apart from the drinks that we drink on the bike, which are essentially pure sugar. And I thought, you know, let's try and move away from the sugar for a while. And I started doing intermittent fasting one day.
Every Monday, I'll just not eat breakfast. I'll get all the way through till about 12 30 before I have lunch and I try and make that lunch a pure protein meal and the dinner if possible pure protein and veggies So almost a zero carbohydrate day just one of the seven days in a week when
When do you have your last meal on a Sunday? Six, so it's about an 18 hour fast.
Cam Nicholls (05:36.654) Typically about 6pm. About an 18 hour fast. It was tremendously difficult in the beginning. Once my system got used to it, now it's easy as pie. I reckon I could go through to dinner without any great trouble. And that's probably gonna be the next sort of iteration of this is to try a 24 hour fast. So probably once a month or so. Just see what Yeah, absolutely. There's no way you can ride and then fast afterwards. It's just gonna be a recipe for disaster.
It's on a day when you're not doing any training.
Cam Nicholls (06:04.098) So I did those two things and the third thing I did was I drastically reduced my sugar intake which was essentially that was basically drinking liquified sugar on the bike. I am just a sugar and cordial guy. I just use white sugar but if you're using a carbohydrate drink that kind of thing I really cut those back. So on my Zone 2 rides even if it was sort of a two and a half hour Zone 2 ride zero liquid carbs I would basically I would eat a little bit of light breakfast at a banana before I went and then maybe another banana halfway through.
get home and have a proper meal afterwards. And I basically cut out the liquified sugar during my rides. The theory being that the liquified sugar is very, it's very inflammatory to your endothelial system and your liver and all that sort of stuff. And what I was trying to do was figure out if I'd been starting to develop a bit of insulin sensitization, which is a common problem. I think it's much more common than we give it credit for, but a little bit of insulin.
Sort of reluctance essentially where your nervous system is is relying too much upon the carbohydrates as an energy source And I was trying to shift my metabolism back towards more of a fat burning metabolism in between the heavy hits of for example when I would do a fast bunch ride or a Vo2 session I would carb up for those sessions and then in between I would drastically reduce the carbohydrates down now This is hard to do if you're doing big loads if you're doing 10 hours a week
very, very hard, but when you're only doing four to five hours a week, it's actually pretty easy. And after about a month of this, I noticed that my endurance was way better. My general energy level on the bike, way better. I was waking up, I was sleeping less, waking up more like earlier in the day, but with much greater energy. And I was having a lot less days on the bike where I got on and just felt kind of dull and fatigued. Most of the rides I would get on and feel really, really good.
So I started noticing after about a month of this that my zone two power output for the same heart rate, about 125 to 130 beats a minute, was jumping by about 20 to 30 watts. So I typically tap along in zone two at about 200 watts. I was suddenly doing about 220 to 230 with the same heart rate. So a really big jump. And this sort of reiterated to me that I was either overtly fatigued, maybe my nervous system doesn't cope with eight to 10 hours a week very well,
Cam Nicholls (08:21.734) Or it was just basically insulin resistance, know, insulin and carbohydrate, like critically dependent metabolism. And so the theory being that if you can switch your metabolism over to utilize both energy sources, you might be a bit healthier and do a little bit better. And this culminated with me doing, I did a couple of VO2 training sessions and then I went and did this bunch ride, got home and I thought, gee, I felt fantastic in that ride. Got home and looked at the numbers and went, that was my best ever five minute.
power by about five or ten watts and it was the best ten minute power I've done for probably around two or three years. Wow. And this wasn't even up a climb this was in a bunch ride rolling turns you know where you're on and off the pedal.
It's not a big bunch ride, so it's not like a three hour bunch ride is it? Because you would have suffered. But this is on the pedals, it's about an hour isn't it?
Yes.
Cam Nicholls (09:12.586) about an hour on the pills really, really, really hard. Yeah, so I thought that was really interesting. So my take home from this is that perhaps training more is not always the solution. If you're trying to increase your power output, sometimes it's a healthy idea to look at your metabolism deficiencies. And if you are a person who is exhibiting some of those traits, things like craving coffee in the morning, not being able to function with high energy levels without stimulants throughout the day,
That mid-afternoon crash in energy waking up tired and you know bleary-eyed and and and not sort of feeling energetic until mid-morning that type of thing often a sign of insulin resistance So yeah, this this is really really interesting for me It's been a real eye-opener and I feel way better with a little bit of extra muscle mass less training load on the bike and more weights and perhaps that's the other take-home message here is that the the weight training super critical
Super critical for some people. I didn't realize how much I was missing out on until I really got diligent with it. I used to do some leg weights probably twice a month, you know, just to keep it going. But this has been for six months, continuous, two days a week, and it's made a huge difference. So a lot of kind of all these things coming together, you can kind of think of this as kind of a metabolism rebuild that I tried to do. Very, very interesting for me, and I don't think I'll ever go back to the way I was before, which was just lots of riding.
lots of sugar and constantly going up and down, yo-yoing in my performance, I felt much more steady with my performances with this sort of dietary and training change. Interesting. Yeah, so there you go. Interesting kind of anecdote for you that people at home, hopefully there's a bit of interest in this and yeah, if you guys have got any similar experiences, I'll be very interested to read the comments on this one, because I reckon there might be a few people out there with the same problem as me.
Yeah, well I've got a similar story and that is that I haven't been doing any of the diet things and I haven't been fasting. I need to get back into that because I used to do it but I've actually implemented a workout that's been going around the RCA community recently because one of our members was stuck on a boat cruise with his family for 10 days.
Cam Nicholls (11:25.902) stuck.
Yeah, he was training for a seven-day charity ride So he's doing big volume and all of a sudden he only had access to a gym bike So one of the coaches shared a research paper and the research paper Demonstrated actually Maintaining FTP and improving sprint power over a three-week period where you're just doing endurance training But incorporating a one session which includes 30 seconds Yeah, so I've dropped off on
30 seconds all out.
I'm not in a three week transition phase, I've been in a 16 week transition phase since my last event. I've been doing about five hours per week. once a week I've been doing this sprint session. So it's 30 seconds all out with a four minute recovery. You do five to six. Yeah, yeah. And you can break them up into two sets. So you could do three sets of, sorry, two sets of three reps with a, you know, like a 10 minute recovery in between.
many of those do you do in a second? Five to six.
Cam Nicholls (12:19.598) And I recently went out and did a bunch ride. Had done a bunch ride for three months and I normalized for 90 minutes. So there's some durability in there as well. Cause I was able to pull turns at the end of the ride, which surprised me. 310 Watts, I normalized power and my FTP now would probably be 330, 340 pushing it. I would have thought so. I was very surprised at that myself. And I feel.
the one change for me was just purely implementing that one workout. I guess the take home story is, if you're only doing four or five hours a week, there are probably ways you can optimize what you're doing, whether it's a workout, whether it's nutrition, fasting, going to the gym. So you can still go do the group ride with your mates, pull some turns and not get dropped off the bar.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I don't think Massive volume is is potentially the answer for a lot of people, you know If you if you're time-starved and you're still looking to optimize your performance like this is some of the best performances I've ever done and with very little training a CTL of 40 and in a really really low-load almost no structured training just a couple of VO2 sessions with some 30 15s that you've mentioned before and some bunch rides and I'm still still feeling as good as I've ever felt and the one bonus here is
Lots more free time to do other things. Exactly. Because you're not always out on the bike.
Exactly. And you probably a bit of freshness in there as well might have contributed.
Cam Nicholls (13:41.838) Yep, absolutely. Yeah, so an interesting case study, mate. You and I have both similar experience by the sounds of things. There you go.
Cool, thanks for sharing. Hope you enjoyed that conversation with Neil Stanbury. We'll catch you in the next podcast.
Fri, 12 Sep 2025 - 13min - 66 - The Most Important Joint for Road Cyclists (Bike Fitter Explains...)
Summary
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, expert bike fitter and sports physiotherapist Neill Stanbury discusses the critical role of the sacroiliac joint in cycling performance. He explains how dysfunction in this joint can lead to significant issues, including pain and reduced endurance, particularly due to asymmetrical movement patterns. The conversation also covers corrective measures and exercises to address these issues, emphasizing the importance of maintaining symmetry for optimal cycling performance.
Takeaways
The sacroiliac joint is crucial for cycling performance. Dysfunction in the sacroiliac joint can cause significant issues. Asymmetrical movement patterns can lead to pelvic torsion. Pain is a major detriment to cycling performance. Symmetrical cyclists tend to have better endurance. Corrective exercises can help address asymmetry. Sacroiliac joint torsions are common among cyclists. Understanding your own asymmetry is vital for performance. The joint has a significant number of proprioceptive nerve endings. Addressing these issues can improve overall cycling function.
Chapters
00:00 Understanding the Sacroiliac Joint 07:02 Addressing Asymmetry in Cycling
Online Bike Fitting Course: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/bike-fit-fundamentals/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.11) Welcome back to the RCA Podcast where today I am joined by expert bike fitter and sports physiotherapist, Neill Stanbury. Just be aware that this conversation is also designed for YouTube. So please excuse any visual references. Let's get into it. Neil, what have you got in front of you there?
This is a spine, hopefully it's not a real one, right? I never thought about that before. Hopefully this is a plastic replication of a real one, otherwise I'm probably gonna get in trouble for this. no, purchased directly from eBay, this is almost certainly plastic and not real, but this is a spine and a pelvis. And I wanted to show you guys, I get asked this question a lot, like to do with, when we're sort of explaining asymmetrical movement patterns to people on the bike, and when people come in with really big, what we call pelvic,
This is a question that I get asked a lot. It's kind of interesting. So let me run you guys through a bit of anatomy I'm gonna try and describe to you why I think this joint here called the sacroiliac joint is probably the single most important joint for cycling in in terms of Its correct function if it's dysfunctional if this joint doesn't work well, you're in big trouble on the bike Now what is the sacroiliac joint? It is the joint between the sacrum and the ilium's there's two sides of the pelvis here the left and the right side
This joint is two in the body, one on the left, one on the right. It's a sliding or a gliding diarthrosis joint, which is a fancy way of saying it's not a joint like your shoulder or your knee or your finger. Basically, this is two faces of bone which sit in on each other like this. There's a massive collection of really strong ligaments across the front and the back. And this joint moves about five degrees or so, not much. It rolls forwards and backwards and on the inside faces of the joint, it's got kind of a knurled surface that kind of...
Interlocks the two the two sides got little valleys and depressions in it which interlock now the joint doesn't move much But why is it the most critical joint for cycling? Performance the reason being that this joint when it's dysfunctional it causes more havoc than any other joints in the body I've found for riding a bike Which is really interesting because it doesn't actually move that much the joint seems to be incredibly important
Neill Stanbury (02:09.634) for proprioceptive function of the leg and for general kinematics of the rest of the leg. If it is dysfunctional, what happens is as you drive down on the pedal, for example here, if your left leg is driving down on the pedal, the sacroiliac joint, as the hip extends, is supposed to roll forward a little bit. And then as the hip comes up over the top of the stroke, it's supposed to roll back a little bit. So it's supposed to basically just move a little bit like this, forwards and backwards, forwards and backwards. Because of the planes that the two SIJs operate in, like this,
They go like this, rhythmically, as you're walking, running, cycling, all of that kind of stuff. Now if you operate asymmetrically on a bike for a long period of time, let's say you've got a rider who's dropping their right hip forward because their right leg is shorter than their left, for example. Typically what will happen is the right ilium will get a lot more forward rotation with very little rearwards rotation, and the left one will get the converse going on, is that it will have to rotate backwards a lot more than forwards with every pedal stroke.
Now we do this about 4,000 times an hour and some of us are doing 15 or 20 hours a week. You multiply it out, it's a lot of repetition, right? Over time, the pattern is that you can develop what we call a pelvic torsion, where the two, that's what I call it anyway, the two sides of the pelvis mutate relative to each other. So their neutral position, they're supposed to just be symmetrical, their neutral position starts to gravitate towards an asymmetrically dysfunctional, know, torsional position.
So when you're sitting in a seat for example watching TV, it'll be like
They're just sitting like that, right? The reason that they get like this is complicated, but basically the the muscle, the drag of the muscle system of all the large muscles which attach onto the pelvis, the quadriceps and the hamstrings and the glutes, the drag of them becomes sufficiently asymmetrical that the two iliac, the sacroiliac joints become torsion at rest to each other. Now when they get torsion at rest, this is starts to, this is usually where you start getting pain.
Neill Stanbury (04:02.466) bike and this is why this joint is so so seriously compromised when it's really compromised it's so serious for your function on a bike because when they get torsion it's usually because you've got really large-scale asymmetry happening on the bike and it's affecting your muscular system which is then dragging the two sides of the pelvis out of plane with each other and as they go out of plane with each other what's embedded in the side of the pelvis your hip joint so as the two sacroiliac joints move like this
it changes the neutral position of the two hip joints. And the two hip joints, the ball and socket joints, they start to go out of plane with each other. And you'll see the person basically flaring one knee away from the bike and the other one's coming right in towards the top tube, which is a classic pattern of complicated asymmetry that we'll see all the time, typically because the person's been dropping their right hip forward a lot of the time. And this torsional effect is catastrophic for a lot of things. It causes most notably pain.
And as I've said many times before, pain is the single biggest detriment you'll ever have to your performance on the bike. If something is hurting, your nervous system is going to curtail your power output really significantly. Not only that, when the pelvis is torsioned, the complicated compensatory patterning which goes on really takes a lot of energy, a lot of neurological energy, which really hammers down your endurance. It really causes trouble. You basically end up utilizing a lot of calories compensating that you could have used for pressing down on
pedals. This is one of the reasons why highly symmetrical people tend to have better endurance than highly asymmetrical people. And the asymmetrical people will usually find that one hamstring blows out before the other one on a long hard ride or one quad or something like that. So this torsional effect is really really serious for your function on the bike. Typically the side effects if they go forward on the right back on the left is left-sided gluteal pain, left-sided ITB pain, left-sided lower back pain,
but the pain is what curtails your performance mostly on the bike. So the Sacroiliac joint, because it's such a critical joint, when it goes bad, I've never seen any other joint in the body cause as much trouble for a cyclist as this one does, which is really fascinating because it is such a, it's a joint which barely moves at all. Depending upon which textbook you read, you might see like five to eight degrees of rotation in the SIJs. So really, really unusual joint.
Neill Stanbury (06:28.992) It seems to have a lot of proprioceptive nerve endings in it. I've heard, I've heard bandied about numbers that contain within the sacroiliac joints, you might have 30 or 40 % of all the proprioceptive nerve endings in your body contained within these joints. So they're really, really critical for posture, balance, general function, all that sort of stuff. And when one of them gets torsion backwards or jammed up, you're in big trouble.
Okay, so how often do you see that in your clinic with people coming through and then what can you do about it?
Ah, what can you do about it is a complicated question. Take up hockey. Take up hockey. What you want to do first is you want to correct for the asymmetry on the bike and then you want to give them corrective exercises off the bike which they vary between people but we give them isolated strength training to do for the weak muscle groups to try and correct the torsional drag that's happening on the pelvis because of that. But how often do I see it? We see it probably, I probably see three decently torsioned SIJs every week.
When they, and that would be out of potentially like 10 to 12 people that I fit in a week, something like that. So it's fairly common. Now there's different grades of how badly they get twisted. A lot of people just have a mild adaptive torsion and they haven't yet gotten to that end stage where when one of the iliums gets turned back a lot, it can actually get like jammed. They can actually get stuck. And that's when you get really big trouble is when they get stuck and they don't move. That's when a lot of the pain really starts.
But in terms of small adaptive torsions, yeah, probably about a third of people. It's really, really common. But when it gets really bad, and these are the ones which we're sort of referencing more here in this video, when it gets really bad and one side gets jammed and it won't move properly, that's when you're in big trouble. So sacroiliac joint torsions are really catastrophic for your function on a bike and in general in everyday life. But cycling, there is no other joint that affects your function as much as the sacroiliac joint in my experience.
Cam Nicholls (08:26.7) Interesting. If somebody's interested in figuring out how they can deal with this from the comfort of their own home, you've put together a program called Bike Fit Fundamentals which has a tutorial on asymmetry.
I think it's think it's part six or seven. Yeah, we're right. Yep. That's the one mate It goes through a lot of the corrective or a lot of the what would you call it? Diagnostic methods of figuring out your asymmetry and it's pretty detailed and this is a good first step to try to prevent or Reverse this fun this this situation if it's starting to happen to you at home Because yeah this long-term effect of compensating asymmetrically on the bike is really problematic for this joint
with a downloadable guide.
Neill Stanbury (09:06.316) and the flow down effects through the rest of your kinetic chain, really, really catastrophic. yeah, that is a really good first step is going through that asymmetry module to try and correct your own asymmetry and see how you go from there.
Hope you enjoyed that conversation with Neil Stanbury. We'll catch you in the next podcast.
Fri, 12 Sep 2025 - 09min - 65 - Why Inseam Measurement is Irrelevant (For Bike Fit & Saddle Height)
Summary
In this episode of the RCA Podcast, expert bike fitter and sports physiotherapist Neill Stanbury discusses the common misconceptions surrounding inseam measurement in bike fitting. He explains why traditional methods of measuring inseam are not reliable indicators of seat height and highlights the various anatomical factors that contribute to effective leg length. The conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding individual anatomy and the limitations of relying solely on inseam measurements for optimal bike fitting.
Takeaways
Inseam measurement does not correlate well with seat height. Anatomical variations significantly affect leg length measurements. The shape and size of the saddle can alter effective seat height. Measuring inseam is often a waste of time in bike fitting. Bike fitting should consider individual anatomy rather than generic measurements. The LeMond method for seat height is flawed. Effective leg length changes with pelvic rotation and saddle shape. High inseam measurements can be misleading based on body composition. Bike Fit Fundamentals course offers a comprehensive fitting guide. Understanding your body is key to proper bike fitting.
Bike Fit Fundamentals: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/bike-fit-fundamentals/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.174) Welcome back to the RCA Podcast where today I am joined by expert bike fitter and sports physiotherapist, Neill Stanbury. Just be aware that this conversation is also designed for YouTube, so please excuse any visual references. Let's get into it. Okay, Neil, everyone wants to know my inseam height when we do a... Okay. It's not...
Fit video mine too. Yep relevant new I get this question a lot in the comments actually I do occasionally read the comments I usually check out of the comments because there's just 10 million of them now that we're a big big enterprise, mate There's just there's a lot of noise down there So I don't often delve into the comments because it's just too much to go through and I'm too busy But when I do read through them particularly with the bike fit videos and stuff like that a lot of questions about what my inseam is what's your
same.
Number one question. I think it's like 89 centimeters. Yeah, so mine's quite long for my like I've got a really short torso and long legs, right? You've never measured your inseam? No, not yet. Yeah, I never measure inseams. Back in the day I used to measure inseams and record it as part of my my fits and I've completely stopped doing that probably 10, 12 years ago, a long time ago I stopped doing it and the reason for that is I found no great correlation between the seat height that we were ending up at at the end of the fit and the inseam measurement. So I wasn't really using the number for anything.
measured my
Neill Stanbury (01:18.83) Interesting. So I just ditched measuring inseams. Now if you're not sure what measuring an inseam entails, we basically get the person to stand up against a wall, flat feet on the ground, know, heels on the ground, knees locked out straight usually, no shoes on, no thick socks, and then we put like a book or a spirit level or something up in here. this rather, you know, centralized section of your anatomy here. We jam it up in there and then we get you to step away from the wall and measure how high it is. Right. So this is what they call inseam measurement.
Which is sort of supposed to be a proxy for leg length measurement, right? And I'm going to tell you today why that's a bad move. For those of you out there who've purchased our BikeFit fundamentals course, you'll notice that one of the things that isn't in there is inseam measurement because again, there's just no great correlation between the seat height and the inseam measurement and if you could say that there's a loose correlation I guess but there's so much variance. You might get the same person with an inseam of 80 centimeters and another guy with an inseam of 80 centimeters and their seat heights might vary by
50 millimeters, like huge variance that it just basically becomes so useless, the number, there's just no point even measuring it, Now, one of the methods of measuring seat height or of setting your seat height, I think they might have called this the LeMond method back in the day, is to measure your inseam and then multiply it by number, and that's just supposed to be your seat height, right? Now, let's delve into the many ways in which this is a terrible idea to set your seat height, people at home. First problem, let's say- How many problems are there?
I don't know, I'm gonna talk till I run out. There's quite a few. Let's say you've got two identical people with identical bodies and one of them has a slightly longer coccyx, this little bone in here which comes down off the bottom of your sacrum there. And one of the coccyx is it kind of comes down lower and the other one curls inwards more like that. You can just sort of see it kicking in or being very straight. The coccyx is almost, a lot of the time, the first thing when you jam something up you're gonna measure it.
The first thing that comes into contact with your book spine or your spirit level or whatever. So the length of your coccidial protuberance here determines your leg length. Obviously not. Makes no difference, right? So this portion of your anatomy, if it varies, it's gonna alter your inseam measurement. Second problem. The height of these ischial protuberances downwards here, inferior iliac spines here, what people commonly think of as your sit bones, right? The height of these relative to the center of the acetate
Neill Stanbury (03:44.174) that height there, the difference between the two, varies hugely between people. So as a measurement of leg length, which is, you know, you can think of your leg length as being the center of the rotation of the acetabulum down to maybe the ground if you're standing still, the difference between that and that can be anywhere from 30 millimeters up to 90 millimeters, depends on the person, right? So the height of the acetabulum inside the pelvis relative to the sit bones is highly variable between people. So even if you do manage to measure,
somehow to your sit bones and you get a reasonable kind of dimension there for your inseam measurement, this number blows it out up, down, whatever. Doesn't make a difference. Another problem, if the person rotates their pelvis forward fairly well versus sitting fairly upright, the height of these relative to the rotational center of the hip changes the effective leg length more or less because this arc, this radius, if you think of it as a radius of movement here,
This arc changes the effective leg length a lot. So if the person was, say, extremely bent forward on the bike, this is kind of going to be level with that relative to the vertical plane that the crank is operating down there. Whereas if they're sitting bolt upright, you're going to get a completely different dimension effectively for the length of your leg. So inseam measurement for this reason is another terrible idea because as you roll forward, you just kind of...
change everything, all of the three-dimensional relationships between them alter so much that it's not even worth thinking about. Another one just to make it, we're going down lots of rabbit holes. As your femur comes out here and goes down, the angle at which it comes out and then kicks down, what we call the femoral neck here, highly variable between people, really, really different. The angle that it comes forward or backward is highly variable between people. Both of these two things alter the effective seat height.
when you're sitting on the bike, they alter the effective length of your leg, irrespective of where your actual in-scene measurement is, right? So in-scene measurements, if you've got a really lean person, you might get that spine and that book right up much higher. If you've got a person with slightly larger soft tissue around their backsides, for example, you might get a situation where that spirit level or that book spine that you're putting up in there is sitting down lower. So you're not getting a very good measurement there anyway.
Neill Stanbury (06:08.078) So the common idea is you take this number and you multiply it by .883, I think was the old LeMond mechanism, and that's supposed to be your seat height. Terrible idea for all of those reasons. Another one is the saddle that you're sitting on, the shape and the size of the seat. Some of them, if it's particularly narrow seat, you're gonna sit deeper over the saddle. If it's a wider seat with a broader back, you're gonna sit up higher. So just by virtue of...
the nature of the shape of the saddle itself, you're get huge potential variations in the effective seat height that you're measuring anyway. So I've seen multiple situations like, I see this probably five times a week, where we change saddles for a given rider on a given seat height. We go from something like an SMP back to a flat style SLR boost or something like that. And you've gotta drop the seat 10 millimetres into the frame or lift it or move it forward or backward. So the effective seat height changes a lot.
based upon how your anatomy interacts with the saddle. And when you're trying to basically set the seat height based off a number, there is just for all of those reasons and more that I could, you know, we could go down endless rabbit holes with this, inseam measurement is a terrible idea as a method of measuring your seat height. So one of the reasons that my inseam might measure so high is because I'm so lean.
There's not much bum on me mate. You know, I don't know. You have noticed, yes. A lot of people are noticing that in the comments. getting a lot of ribald comments down there. So because I'm so lean down there, I think that inflates my inseam measurement. Yeah, okay. So, for a person who's 173, 174 centimetres last time I checked, an inseam dimension of 89 centimetres is crazy high, like really, really high. Does that mean I've got particularly long legs? Eh, probably.
but it could also mean that for all those reasons that we mentioned before, my inseam measures very high. So that is a more detailed explanation of why I don't even bother measuring inseam when I'm measuring people. And if you go and have a bike fit and they measure your inseam and they set your seat height based upon your inseam measurement. Ask for your money back. Red flags, Warning lights are flashing. And again, we've had a lot of questions in the Bike Fit Fundamentals course, people who've been going through that course.
Neill Stanbury (08:25.262) They haven't asked me to measure my inseam and this is why there is just no point to it It is just such a highly variable method of measuring that it's just not worth doing. It's not even worth spending three minutes doing. Okay. Yeah
you sold me. So if you're watching this and you're like, I want to set my saddle height properly now, you mentioned bike fit fundamentals.
What's that? Yeah bike and fundamentals. That's our seven part course that we did last year our program that we did Detailed detailed 15 to 20 sometimes 25 minute modules seven of them and downloadable guides downloadable guides This will step you through the process one after the other Sequentially how to fit yourself to a road bike to a pretty high level We're very proud of it took a lot of work and it's out there for purchase if you guys want to go through the process yourself
you enjoyed that conversation with Neil Stanbury, we'll catch you in the next podcast.
Fri, 12 Sep 2025 - 09min - 64 - A Zone Two Training Hack (Anyone Can Do)
Summary
In this episode of the RCA podcast, host and coach Ben Treble discusses innovative techniques to enhance cycling fitness through zone two training, focusing on the importance of proper breathing. The conversation explores how diaphragmatic breathing can improve performance, lower heart rates, and enhance overall cycling efficiency. Listeners are guided on how to implement these breathing techniques during their training sessions, with practical advice on intervals and progression. The episode concludes with real-world applications and benefits observed by athletes who have integrated these methods into their routines.
Takeaways
Zone two training can become monotonous, so mixing it up is essential. Breathing techniques can significantly impact cycling performance. Diaphragmatic breathing is crucial for improving VO2 max. Proper breathing can lower heart rates and improve recovery. Breathing exercises can reduce perceived exertion (RPE) during workouts. Integrating breathing techniques into training can enhance overall fitness. Focus on breathing through the belly for better oxygen intake. Progress breathing exercises from zone two to higher intensity efforts. Athletes have reported lower heart rates and improved performance with breathing techniques. Adding breathing exercises has no downside and can only improve cycling efficiency.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Zone Two Training 02:59 Understanding Breathing Techniques 06:02 Implementing Breathing in Zone Two Rides 08:51 Progressing Breathing Techniques in Training 12:06 Real-World Applications and Benefits of Breathing Exercises
RCA: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/
Cam Nicholls (00:00.12) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined in studio by RCA coach Ben Treble. And today we're going to talk about a zone two training hack you can use to boost your overall cycling fitness. Apparently that's what I was just hearing about offline, which I'm interested to learn a little bit more about. And I think it's a good one as well for a lot of people out there that get a little bit bored is the right word with zone two training, but
You know it can be a little bit monotonous so something that we can use to mix things up So Ben, what do you got for me? We're doing some zone 2 maybe we should Preface this one by talking about what do we mean by zone 2 because there are many more other versions of zone 2 There's a scientific model There's a heart rate model. There's a power model like are we talking about? Something specifically here, or we're not getting too carried away. We're just doing like aerobic work
Yeah, don't need to get too carried away. I where this idea came from, I mean, it's not my idea. It's not a new idea, but I had an athlete that, you know, you do zone to ride, let's say it's one hour, two hours on Swift and it gets a bit boring. Like how do you make it more interesting? whilst being productive. And the idea that I ended up with was, you know, I learned this actually over at the UCI level three course around.
you know, often a low hanging fruit that's missed is learning how to breathe properly on the bike. Hmm. You know, like particularly let's talk about VO2 max, you know, hot topic at the moment, you know, everybody's pretty good at doing some sort of VO2 max intervals, but we don't, and we often only think of, we're fairly narrow minded in thinking about to improve VO2 max, we do intervals on the bike. don't think about how else could we improve.
VO2 max from, because it's not just how you push the pedals, right? It's, there's a lot more involved in when we think about what VO2 max is, your, you know, your maximal volume of oxygen consumption that involves your whole cardio respiratory system. key, very key component of that is breathing. So the idea was let's try and break up the zone to ride by adding in some intervals at the same intensity, but there's just simply, you know, the, the,
Ben Treble (02:25.794) wording on the interval is a reminder to just purely focus on your breathing for say it's a five minute interval and then we progress to longer intervals.
Okay, so when we say breathing, are we talking about like, are we working, you know, breathing through the chest? Are we focusing on the stomach or the diaphragm? Or like, are we narrowing in on something before we talk about what the intervals look like? Because I know like, you do forget about this one, it's like, yeah, the diaphragm. You know, don't often think about the diaphragm when you're doing your training, you think about your legs.
and your lower back and maybe some numb hand that you get on your handlebar. So like if we're doing zone two training and we're focused on the breathing, what are we focused on specifically?
The scientific term is diaphragmatic breathing. It's also called belly breathing. I think in its most basic form, that's the first step to improving your breathing would be to think about expanding your belly and breathing through the belly. The goal that you want to get to though would be a picture. If you picture your chest and your belly, that whole torso area, as if it was a big can of Coke and someone shook it up and it's expanding in the heat.
That's what you want when you breathe. You want your chest, your belly, your ribs, your back. So behind you, you want it to expand outwards, forwards, upwards at the same time as evenly as possible, which is quite hard to do. if we come back to why is this important? Because a lot of new writers, they work Monday to Friday jobs, sitting at a desk. They just breathe through their chest and they often have shallow breathing. And this is a learned muscle recruitment pattern.
Ben Treble (04:10.136) that you have. And when you end up doing high intensity intervals, your body's going to revert to its natural muscle recruitment patterns, including when you breathe. And so you're to just breathe pretty hard through your chest and your ribs will limit your breathing capacity a little bit. So let's talk about how do we shift that and improve how much oxygen we're going to breathe in. So you can improve your tidal volume. And then if you improve the strength of those diaphragmatic
muscles through some exercise intervals like this, you're going to improve the pressure when you breathe out, which will improve your partial pressure and it'll improve the diffusion of the oxygenated blood into the capillaries, which is going to improve your call it your VO2 max or your ability to do high intensity intervals.
Okay, good. I'm wondering, there's probably a lot of people out there listening at the moment, myself included, just sitting opposite you that's already started to just breathe a little bit differently. I'm like, yeah, okay. I was chest breathing and now I can feel as I'm breathing and focus more on that sort stomach region, which then sort of continues into the chest. Things are a lot different.
Yeah, you feel karma. do feel calm. Your heart rate's going to drop. Your body immediately gets a parasympathetic response. So it's going to reduce the heart rate, improve your heart rate variability. And you get that, that parasympathetic response across the body, which reduces your stress. That translates if you teach yourself, it's difficult to, to practice that in a high intensity of four minute VO two interval. It's very difficult to practice that. course. That's why one,
I target the zone two or even your recovery rides and I break it up with intervals that are just let's focus on the breathing. See how much you can reduce your heart rate through focused breathing in that five minutes. And when you, it's much easier to do that at low intensity. So you're going to practice that and hopefully the aim is to build the new muscle recruitment pattern. So then when you start doing high intensity work, you should naturally start breathing better when you're doing that high intensity work and it should improve.
Cam Nicholls (06:02.67) Okay.
Ben Treble (06:20.012) your, it should lower the RPE. That's where the science is at. So if you're breathing a lot better, it's going to reduce the RPE and improve your ability to sustain those high intensity intervals. So yeah, pretty good one. the other science on this that, you know, I did a little bit of extra research on this cause that's where I was at. and the science behind this was it should also improve your posture and it should help reduce things from tinglingness in the arms.
and to your power output, or if you have back injuries, it's just going to help use every muscle in the body. And it's going to reduce the load on the legs. And the last big benefit that was quite interesting was when you're breathing more efficiently, which is what we just described, you got to think that your, your, your cardio respiratory system is a subset of muscles. Like the intercostal muscles is a big group and they require energy to work. If you can use those muscles more efficiently,
they're going to do the same amount of breathing for less energy. It's going to save that energy for your legs.
Okay, that's good. All right, you've sold me. So what is it if I'm doing a zone two ride? You know, I'm going for an hour on the train or maybe it's two hours as we have here where I live down the coast. That's a common zone two ride or maybe somebody doing three hours on two ride. Like what are they doing? Like how does an interval look like? Give an example and add another layer on that up. You know, I've been into breathing in the past, not so much on the bike but off the bike.
you there's the Wim Hof method and all these things and they talk about you've got to breathe in through your nose because the nose filters the air, warms it and it becomes more efficient when it goes into the bloodstream. So you know are we mouth breathing, are nose breathing? What does it look like?
Ben Treble (08:06.038) Yeah. I do like breathing in through the nose and out the mouth. for me, main benefit, no, that's very difficult. So yeah, preface high intensity stuff. You're to be mouth breathing. Good luck trying that with nose breathing. Maybe if you're a pocket show,
VR2 max
Ben Treble (08:24.642) But when you breathe through the nose, it limits the amount of oxygen or the volume that you can breathe in, like how fast you can feel those lungs. And so naturally what it does is it forces you to breathe in over a longer period. when you have shallow breathing, it's often short. You might be breathing in and out in one, two second increments. So the practical side of this is I would put in a one hour zone two ride, probably three, five minute intervals, three to four. And
it's at the same intensity. So you just try and maintain the same power. But the focus of it is you would start in the most basic form, try and breathe through the belly, which is going to help you breathe out everywhere and start with trying to breathe in for three, hold it and then breathe out for three. Yeah. Well, you don't have to hold it for three, probably for two, but you just want to hold it for at least a period. Yeah. Don't just breathe in and straight back out. in, hold it for a bit. Cause it's going to help strengthen the muscles and then
for three seconds.
Cam Nicholls (09:23.352) through the mouth, through the nose when you're the...
You breathe in through the nose. To me, it doesn't matter that much, but if you breathe in through the nose, it's going to force you to do it longer. And you want to progress. So if you can do it for five seconds in and out, that's great. I think that's the target is to get to a five second in and out. Some people like to do this with the pedal strokes. So you might say, as you're breathing in, try and get through five revolutions. That's another way to count through it. And then as you're breathing out, try and get through five revolutions.
Okay, cool. And you're doing this for...
I would just try this for five minutes because it's actually, it's a very, it should be a very focused effort. And I think it's actually a little bit mentally draining when you start doing this. And so that's why I just do five minutes.
Oh, and I think you can also lose focus very quickly at a zone 2 level, know what I mean? Because you're sort of plodding along and quite often I get caught in my own thoughts and you you drift off so five minutes sounds like a good period.
Ben Treble (10:14.318) Yeah. And then I would just build it up. And this is a, you know, we just had a good chat about winter training. Great time in winter training to train this. might even do a full block, say like a four week period where you start in the first week, trying to get through two of your zone two rides. You've got three, five minute intervals of breathing. And by the end of the four weeks, you want to get to a point where, you know, you're doing 20 minute intervals and then you testing that out, uh, when you do some high intensity stuff, potentially.
Okay, and do you, you know, with the RCA members at UCoach who are doing this, do they progress that breathing into other zones as well? So like I'm thinking, obviously you wouldn't go straight to, you know, top end zone, but like you get them to do tempo efforts or any sweet spot efforts or is this something that you think is a good idea? Because obviously at a zone two level, it's easier to probably be
doing this may become more challenging as you go up the zones.
Yeah, I would definitely progress it into tempo efforts.
Okay, and a tempo effort if you're out there listening, zone three, so power wise we're talking what's at about 75 to 85 percent of FTP around there.
Ben Treble (11:25.752) Yep, around there. It's going to be the job.
Okay, and have you had any feedback from some of your athletes that have been doing this? What have they said about the workout specifically and any things that they've noticed on the bike?
highly where it came from was a conversation with an athlete I had around their zone two workouts and they were concerned about cardiac drift or they felt like their high rate was just increasing too much towards the end of a zone two ride. I think there were other factors at play like heat strain throughout an indoor workout was a one factor. And I was trying to think of how do we help this athlete because we're not going to change the work that they're doing.
the zone two work they're doing is going to help improve the cardiac drift and the progressive increase in volume will help reduce cardiac drift. But that takes time. And so I thought, let's try get that heart rate down a bit more with some breathing exercises. So a lot of secondary benefits, but at the end of the day, we did it even for two weeks. And when we did our weekly catch up in the second week, we looked at the heart rate response and we looked at the RPE and the comments.
And the comments simply were I could feel the difference. I could feel that I managed to get my heart rate five to 10 beats lower than it was at the start of the five minute breathing interval. And then by the third week, we managed to get the heart rate to be around 10 beats lower in average for the whole workout. Wow. And in the space of one week, you're not going to see a massive, you know, shift in say just pure cardiac drift stuff, but
Ben Treble (13:08.136) I would say a big portion of that was just through breathing.
Interesting.
So, yeah, pretty significant drop in RPE. And I think this helps everything from recovery to a whole lot of subset of things.
Yeah, and it's such an easy one to do, but such an easy one to forget about as well. I'm going to go try this myself. know, particularly I think on the indoor trainer as well, I struggle with those own two rides. They're very boring. So this is going to be a good one for me to test out.
Yeah, I think it's a great one. often talk about low hanging fruit and often when you target something in your cycling training, it means that you're not doing something else, but adding breathing exercises into a zone to work out. To me, there is no downside. There's only a possible upside. So what have you got to lose by trying it?
Cam Nicholls (14:00.288) Very good point. Such a good point. We're gonna leave on that point. Thanks again for joining us, Ben. And look, if you're looking to implement these things and work with the coach, get support with these types of things, make sure you check out the RCA's website, www.roadcyclingacademy.com and there you can hire a coach. Even, can you hire Ben at the moment or are you at capacity?
I'll always make room for some people.
All right, thank you, Tom, and we'll catch you in the next podcast.
Thu, 11 Sep 2025 - 14min - 63 - Make Best Use of the Winter Period (for BIG FTP Gains Next Summer)
Summary
In this episode, RCA coach Ben Treble discusses the transition from off-season to on-season training for cyclists, focusing on strategies to maintain motivation during winter, the importance of setting winter goals, and the role of strength and conditioning in enhancing cycling performance. The conversation emphasizes the need for a balanced approach that includes aerobic base training, gym work, and experimentation with nutrition and taper strategies to prepare for the upcoming cycling season.
Takeaways
Take time off the bike for mental reset. Focus on aerobic base training during winter. Set specific winter goals for cycling. Incorporate strength and conditioning into training. Experiment with nutrition and taper strategies. Maintain motivation through outdoor rides. Strength training is crucial for cyclists. Something is always better than nothing in training. Prioritize gym work during the off-season. Reset goals to address injuries and bike fit issues.
Chapters
00:00 Transitioning from Off-Season to On-Season Training 03:06 Maintaining Motivation Through Winter Training 05:58 Setting Winter Goals for Cyclists 09:05 The Importance of Aerobic Base Training 11:51 Incorporating Strength and Conditioning in Winter 14:51 Experimenting with Nutrition and Taper Strategies 17:50 The Role of Gym Work in Cycling Performance 20:50 Maintaining Strength During the Cycling Season 23:54 Key Takeaways for Off-Season Training
RCA Cycle Coaching: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
Cam Nicholls (00:00.046) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined in studio by or with Ben Treble, RCA coach Ben Treble. Welcome to the studio, Ben. So today I wanted to talk about something that if you're an Australian, Kiwi or anyone sort of Southern hemisphere, is that how it works weather wise? Hopefully. And you're coming off a winter period because what is it? Just entered spring here.
Thanks, Ken.
Cam Nicholls (00:29.238) So if you're in Victoria, we know that they're gonna have winter for another five months. But for the rest of Australia, you're sort of coming into some nicer weather and you're just coming off an off season phase or what most people would treat as an off season phase being a winter. Or if you're like many of our Canadian, American, UK or European members, you you're just about to wrap up the summer.
period, the nice weather and you're heading into an off season phase or at least a winter phase. So I wanted to talk about, you know, your approach as somebody who coaches a number of people for this period of time, assuming that we're talking about, you know, our American, Canadian, UK, European members who are going into a winter period. And maybe for those listening in Australia, Southern hemisphere, like, now that I've, you know,
coming out of an off season phase. Did I do it right? Well, what can I do right for 2026? So, I'm gonna paint the picture for you here. I've been training super hard for the last five, six months during summer. I've done a couple of Fondo events. I've done a few races. I've peaked. I'm feeling good, but winter's about to hit. What would you recommend I do?
That's a good question. mean, ultimately the two big ones come into mind really quickly is going to be taking some time off and putting a big focus on like aerobic base training and using that extra time with some reduced volume and intensity with the bike to focus on some strength and conditioning in the gym. Okay. They're the two headlines. Okay.
Okay, so let's dig into those, playing Deadpool's advocate, what if I'm like, like we just spoke about in the previous podcast, Joshua, who's just throughing from the bit, you know, he's recently got into, not recently got on a road cycle, but recently found structured training and the benefits and had huge improvements and won his first crit race. And I know from the feeling, you know, 12 years ago when I first went and did my first race and I got that.
Cam Nicholls (02:41.718) sensation and the group rides, the dopamine's going off and I didn't care that it was winter, I just wanted to go hard during winter because I was feeling good and I loved the training and I wanted to do well next year. So what if you like, not saying Joshua is going to do this, but what if you like Joshua in that scenario and you're so excited about what's next and you're loving the training and you just keep going. What if you do that? What's going to happen?
Yeah, very likely you're going to peak in the middle of winter when there's no racing or races that you're not targeting and you're going to get to summer in a fairly fatigued state looking for a mental break. So, you know, I think it's tricky for riders like Josh, because if you've just sort of really found that itch this late in summer and you're about to hit winter, especially in North America, where it is going to be cold and snowy.
Okay.
Ben Treble (03:38.818) that's going to be hard to manage that motivation because one, you don't want to lose the motivation, but you want to maintain it and manage it through winter and hold onto it. So when you get towards spring and you get towards the summer crits, you're going to peak. That's when you need to have that real energy.
Okay, so for that person that wants to keep going, keep that in mind. What do you want 2026 to look like?
There's a, there's a, there's a plan B for some athletes on this. I'm thinking of not Josh, but another athlete that I have. and the, I'll set the scene a little bit. I've worked with them for a while. They're a weekly athlete of mine. They do a lot of travel once a month between America and Europe. busy schedule, busy job, loves riding and
We had the chat recently about winter goals. I've had this started this conversation with all my North American European athletes. I want you to think about your winter goals. Just think about it. And then in our next catch up, let's start to set the goals.
Okay, so the goals can be beyond building base fitness and going to the gym.
Ben Treble (04:49.858) gym. Definitely. Okay. Yeah. And for this athlete, the first comment was last winter. So before I was working with this athlete and they did a swift program through winter, it burned them out and they got to the end of winter and was ready to throw the bike in the bin. I think I'm going to relabel this, not just swift, but like high intensity indoor training. Yes. Yeah.
Okay. We're really going hard after Zwift. Zwift. This was the last podcast we did.
Cam Nicholls (05:16.43) Which is what Zwift programs are. But Zwift is, as we've said, just to preface, great platform, we love it, great for bunch rides, great for motivation, great for indoor racing, and it does have some good plans on them. But they can burn you out.
Easy target.
Yeah. So this athlete, you know, that was our conversation around winter goals and the way that we're going to manage that, cause we don't want to repeat it and equally doesn't want to just do indoor riding based training is one of the goals is let's try and ride outdoors three times a week. Not appropriate for everyone, but they're going to do some gravel riding and there's a gravel scene through winter. So we're flipping the focus a little bit. We're still going to do some indoor training, but the focus will be more around,
Okay, nice.
Ben Treble (06:02.082) getting him outdoors to maintain that motivation on the bike. And equally it's going to be around, he's got a little niggle in the knee and there's going to be a focus on strength and conditioning and rehabbing and addressing that injury. Like really taking the time to focus on stretching, go see the physio if he needs to see the physio. But like really let's address those small niggles so they don't become bigger problems when we want to hit full training again coming into summer.
Okay, cool. And I think that's, you've raised a good point that, you know, cross training is a great opportunity as well. If you want to have like another goal, just to, if you've been cycling for a long time, like I have, you know, I've been doing it for 15 years now. Last year I did a triathlon, just coming out of, you know, winter. I know, yeah. Ben's dropped his jaw here. And no, no, not many people are impressed. And I'm doing it again this year because I'm like, it's just a bit of variation and,
For me, it just changes the dynamic of what I'm doing. I hate swimming, but I still go to the pool. It makes me really respect cycling even more. Not a huge fan of running, but I do like the process of training for it. And there's different things that I'm doing and it's time away from the bike. It's a mental refresher. So when I do come back to cycling specifically, I'm more motivated. So that's another example of just taking your mind off things and some cross-training ideas. if we go back to, let's just say you are focused on having an epic 2026.
on the bike, you're about to go into winter, you talk about focusing on endurance and focusing on the gym, which is really going to put you in a good position to have a solid 2026. So what would that look like?
Yeah, to me it looks like you start with what I would call a call it a transition phase. So you get to the end of your race season, you go into a transition phase where you progressively reduce the volume and intensity. Might only be over two weeks, might be over four weeks. Depends how long you want to take the winter. And then I would probably try to plan to have at some point early in the winter, a significant complete break off the bike.
Ben Treble (08:09.622) And depending on the rider, that might be one week. might be two weeks for a complete mental reset. And just, you know, if that means going on a holiday with the family, whatever it is, it's like a really, that's the time to have a proper break on the bike. Post that you move into a general preparation phase. So I would use the winter as like a long general preparation phase. And this would start with some aerobic based training. So that does involve.
significantly reduced intensity, you might still, you'd go into some maintenance, right? That's often the main goal that writers would come to you with through winter is like, how do I maintain what I have? I don't want to lose. I don't want to lose what I've gained in the summer. And that requires a bit of resetting expectations that you've peaked in summer and you have to recognize you can't stay at that peak all the time. And the way that we get you back to that peak or at a bigger peak next year,
is you're going to have to come down first and you have to go through this period where you give your body a significant portion of time to rest, recover, reset. And then we go into this base block. So everybody likes to talk about this pyramid and the lowest, biggest base in the pyramid is this long, low endurance work. But that could also mean doing your strength and conditioning work. And you still want to do some maintenance, which could be some sprint interval training. Okay.
So, therefore, if we just focus on the cycling specifically, let's just say, I know a lot of people in the off-season phase, now they're on the trainer, they're not outdoors, the volume reduces. So let's just say we're going from 10, 12 hours a week to maybe five or six. And we're doing four rides, maybe five rides. As a general blanket example, let's just call it five rides. Five one-hour rides.
Are four of those rides Zone 2 and one of them's an intense workout that you do each week for some maintenance? Or are three base rides and two intense maintenance workouts?
Ben Treble (10:23.382) Yeah, it depends. would periodize it again, just like you would normally. but in general, I would probably want to spend more time in a general weekly structure where if there's five sessions, one is recovery ride zone one.
So even do a recovery ride. Okay. Even though you're not that fatigued and you know the training load isn't that high.
I would still have a recovery rock.
Ben Treble (10:45.014) Yeah, I'd still do a recovery ride. it's five days a week, you're still doing back to back days on the bike.
Yeah, so the trainer is more difficult than on the road as well, generally.
I would agree with that, you're probably going to have a bit of heat stress going on that you're not accounting for.
Not in Canada. Or some of our Nordic country members as well.
Future podcast topic, heat training. yeah, one recovery, two zone two rides. And then I would do, yeah, one or two, if you want to call them interval sessions and depending on where you're at in winter, that might start out. would do maintenance, which would be a sprint interval session, which is quite neuromuscularly taxing, but it shouldn't be too like energetically taxing externally. And then you might start to add in.
Ben Treble (11:33.258) some efforts with your fifth session. And that might be starting smaller with some small tempo efforts and building up depending on really depends on what your goals and weaknesses and strengths are. If you've got a quick racer, you might focus on maintaining anaerobic capacity and do a bit more threshold work. If you've got someone who wants to focus on time trial or climbing and longer endurance events, you're probably going to do a bit more tempo work for your intervals.
We're just coming out of an off-season phase, well I am, and what's worked really well for me depends on the week. I've averaged over the past 16 weeks 5.1 hours per week, so not huge, mostly on the trainer and I'm probably doing two or three zone two rides, then I'll do one sweet spot ride. For me it's about 300 watts, so I'll do 10 minute intervals with a five minute recovery and I'll do, depending on how much time I've got available, I might do three or four.
five if I'm lucky, that's extending it to an hour and a half on the train though, so it's probably more like three or four. And the other session I've been doing, and we've made a video on the RCA YouTube channel about this recently, and I think this was a paper that you might have shared or Carter shared, the sprint interval training, which I've actually never done before, which is the warmup with some activation efforts and then 30 seconds all out. And when I say all out, it's like, and people ask on the video, what percentage of FTP are you doing? It's just like, yeah.
just go all out, like, you know, as a rate of perceived exertion, if you're all out is a 10 out of 10, which is a 10 second sprint, for a 30 second sprint, you're probably doing a seven or a nine, I'm sorry, eight or a nine RPE. And what I found with those sprint intervals as well is that, you know, my first 10 seconds would peak and then I would drop off towards the last 20 seconds. And that's fine, you're depleting your anaerobic stores, but I've been doing that. So 30 seconds sprint, I think it's a four four and a half minute recovery, either way.
I think that doesn't really matter in between and then I'll do that again and I'll do five or six of those depending on how much time. And that's all the intensity I've been doing. And I went and did the local bunch recently and I was really surprised at my ability to not only keep up and roll turns and not get dropped, but in the last, it's a 90 minute hit out and the last sort of 20 minutes, they push it pretty hard towards the end. And I was able to roll turns and had some durability as well, which was really surprising. So I think that blend that you talked about is actually kind of like what I'm doing now.
Cam Nicholls (13:54.68) to great success.
Yeah, no, that sounds about right. you know, think to me that that's the answer for nine out of 10 cases for people. don't think there's much else to it. I think there's a lot more that you can do in winter and use winter for like, that's the training, you know, like you get the training done, but winter is also this really good opportunity to experiment and test different things.
That's the time if you are focused on say an event that looks at watts per kilo and you want to look at trying to get to race weight, you can try and drop a little bit of weight through winter. It's not a lot, but you can just really do small incremental stuff. It's a really good time to look at your nutrition. If you want to experiment or do gut training, if you want to try different gels or foods, find out what works with your stomach. If you want to test a taper strategy,
that's also a good time to really just test different things out before you hit the season.
So with a taper strategy, if you're not doing much training though that wouldn't be possible would it? Because a taper is about peaking and maybe you could do that at the end of the season, at the very end.
Ben Treble (15:12.622) Yeah, I still think you could do it in winter. Like you could, uh, to keep it interesting. have some athletes where we might throughout the winter break it up and do say, you know, after two months of base training, if you want to call it that, might do, uh, we would call it a training camp where you actually, you add quite a bit of load and intensity for one week. and then you might try a taper strategy the week after. So you just build up a bunch of fatigue. You're also really breaking that winter up.
And you just, okay, now we're to do, try and do some longer rides, whether it's on Zwift or outdoors. You find a point in the winter that suits the athlete to their schedule, lock it in. You get through that week and then the week after, cause they're depleted. It's kind of a good time to test how a taper might work. How they respond to it. Cause there's different taper strategies out there. And I do think people respond differently to them. And often you find yourself in the middle of, you start with a new athlete and you maybe
coming.
Ben Treble (16:11.446) the first time you're doing a taper is to a race that they care about. So you have to be quite conservative.
And of course, know, bike position is another big one I know. And during winter periods and years gone by, I've tested and spent thousands of dollars on many, many different bike seats. Turned out back in the day, just, my saddle was probably 10, 20 mil too high, which was the issue, which is very common. People have their saddle too high and they don't sit on the saddle properly. And now I've ended up with, as you can see over there on that wall, the ugly SMP. But testing, you know, different positions as well is a great thing to do during that.
winter period. So while you're testing these different things and you're doing your bass training with a little bit of intensity sprinkled in, Jim was the other big one that you mentioned at start of the conversation. So what does that look like? And let's not specifically go into reps and sets and that, because that's probably a conversation for another day. But like...
How are you looking at gym? Is this a phase where you're building strength in the gym? And how many sessions a week are required? How are you placing it amongst your cycling training? What does that look like?
Yeah, great question. Look, I'll caveat this and say, I'm not an accredited strength and conditioning coach. I'm a sports scientist and a cycling coach. Cam is so Cam can tell me if I mess this up or not. but you do do a lot of S and C work as a sports scientist in reference to winter, you know, I mean, the basic stuff, if we just looked at S and C in terms of cycling,
Cam Nicholls (17:52.928) S &C strength and conditioning just for those out there that wondering what that might be.
Thanks, Ken. My bad.
No, no, it's alright. Sometimes we get these questions and we use acronyms all the time.
Yeah, that's good. I'll keep that in mind. You know, you would say, okay, you want to do twice a week to build power and strength, whatever it is. And then if you're in a race season, you back it off to maybe once a week for maintenance. And typically you're going to prioritize the bike wo
Fri, 05 Sep 2025 - 29min - 62 - The Problem with Zwift Cycling Plans
Summary
In this episode, the conversation revolves around the effectiveness of Zwift and other off-the-shelf cycling programs, exploring their benefits and limitations. The discussion highlights the common issue of athlete plateaus and features a case study of a member named Joshua, who transitioned from a Zwift program to personalized coaching. The importance of critical power testing and structured training is emphasized, along with insights into preparing for competitive racing. The episode concludes with key takeaways for listeners looking to improve their cycling performance.
Takeaways
Zwift programs are engaging but may lead to plateaus. High intensity workouts can cause quick fatigue. Athletes often don't know their true training needs. Improving FTP alone doesn't guarantee racing success. Critical power testing provides more insights than FTP. Structured coaching can help overcome training plateaus. Recovery weeks are essential for performance improvement. Individualized training plans are more effective. Learning bike handling skills is crucial for racing. Coaching support can enhance overall cycling experience.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Zwift and Off-the-Shelf Plans 03:04 The Pros and Cons of Zwift Programs 05:43 Understanding Athlete Plateaus 08:45 Case Study: Joshua's Journey with Coaching 11:51 The Importance of Critical Power Testing 14:40 Transitioning from Zwift to Structured Coaching 17:42 Preparing for Competitive Racing 20:38 Key Takeaways and Future Goals 23:38 Conclusion and Coaching Support
Josh's crit result: https://youtu.be/ONBx5Z8S6y0?si=dgozDX_eCF0-srKu
Cycling coaching with the RCA; https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
Speaker 2 (00:00.376) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined in the studio, I should say, which is my house, by RCA coach Ben Treble. What are you doing in town, Ben?
Just up here for a short holiday and escape the drizzly Sydney weather for some warm beachy Queensland northern riding.
Noosa weather is nice, isn't it? Come for holiday if you've never been. Today, we're going through three topics while Ben is in town. So we're gonna have three in a row podcasts where we're face to face. Perhaps you can let us know in the review section what you think of this face to face versus the typical we do them online. But today we're gonna talk about Zwift and Zwift programs and Zwift workouts and
been very nice.
Speaker 2 (00:48.204) I don't want to throw Zwift under the bus specifically, but a lot of people when they think about off-the-shelf plans, they think about Zwift because that's probably the most common one, but this comes in the form of Wahoo system, there's Trainer Road, and we've even got off-the-shelf plans on our own website. Probably a little bit different, I'd say, to these online subscription-based plans, but I wanted to talk about them in the sense of...
you know, are they good or are they bad or like how should we be looking at these things? Because I know we're going to talk about a member today and we get a lot of inquiries where people are coming off Zwift programs or off the shelf programs on another platform and they've done them well initially but then they've hit a bit of a plateau and they're not sure why and you know, they lean into some more customized coaching and as you'll hear today, an athlete or an RCA member that Ben has been
Training has had some huge improvements. So I'm going to ask you the question specifically Ben Zwift workout swift plans. What do you think about them?
Nice in the short term and that's about it. Yeah. My, my knowledge of most of them that I've seen and from a few athletes, cause it's pretty common scenario where we see a new athlete to cycling and they start with the say a swift program or something similar. And you look at the history and it's a often just a lot of sort of hit random interval workouts. And when I look at those intervals, I'm often asking myself this question.
Okay
Ben Treble (02:23.852) Like what was the purpose of this, like interval session? It's, some random intervals with lots of variation.
When you say lots of variation, you're talking about like jumping between different zones or...
Yeah, jumping across different zones or within a zone, just changing the power output quite often and a bit random. I'll just... My view on it pretty simple is Zwift program is often designed to keep you in Zwift. And so they create these programs that are really interesting and really engaging. And that's how they keep you going, that's how they keep you motivated, and that's how you... People love Zwift programs. They get through them because, yeah, there's so much variation, it just keeps you hyper-engaged and...
there's a lot of high intensity and when you're new to cycling, any work that you do will often see some improvement.
It's been quite difficult as well, I find. Like, I'm a bit of a stickler in the off-season, so I can't be bothered thinking about something. I'll go on Zwift, and, you know, I appreciate Zwift. I think it's a great platform, particularly the bunch riding and the racing. But even their workouts, I often do them. But I struggle to find workouts that are, you know, like a six or seven out of ten. They're all like an eight or nine or even a ten out of ten. They're always, you know, I pick one, I'm like,
Speaker 2 (03:40.962) I'm halfway through it, I'm like, this is actually, it's a really hard workout. So you do finish going, endorphins are pumping. You know, I feel like I've really done something.
Yeah, your dopamine is just massively spiked, right? It's the same old school adage. If you go to the gym and people used to just go crazy hard at the gym because, you know, if you don't feel sore straight after all the next day, it wasn't a good session, which we just know isn't necessarily the right approach these days. We know a lot better. So same with Zwift. You know, you get these athletes, they're new, you get a lot of high intensity. They're going to see a lot of improvement really quick, but equally they're going to plateau pretty quick. And it's because the athlete adapts really quick, really early.
but the Zwift program is not adapting with them.
Okay, do also think that, you know, maybe taking the spotlight off Zwift and off the platforms that also a lot of recreational and amateur road cyclists that are choosing these plans or choosing these workouts also don't really know where they're at and what they should be doing and therefore the risk of choosing the wrong plan or like I want to build my FTP so FTP builder, you know what mean?
you should actually probably be doing this before you do an FTP builder. Do think that factors into the situation here?
Ben Treble (04:54.156) Yeah, big time. mean, you can't exactly go to one of these online platforms and say, my goal is to improve my bunch riding skills. That's, that's, it's not going to teach you that. And when you're a beginner, you don't know what you don't know. And often it's great to focus on something as singular as FTP, but if you want to be a great rider, you actually have to work on a whole subset of skills from technical skills on the bike.
And strategic skills, if you want to race to your power on the bike, like your power on the bike is just one component. It's a little bit useless unless all you want to do is swift racing or time trialing up a climb. But if you want to race, you can have all the power you want in the world. But if you don't know how to ride in a bunch and draft or know how to follow a tax or fuel it properly, it's going to fall apart pretty quick.
Yeah, and that's certainly been my experience as the inquiry guy at the RCA who, you know, speak to a lot of people coming on board before they get handed over to coaches. You know, it's a great, you know, pathway or segue from, you know, I'm just riding randomly to actually getting a feel or dipping my toe in structured training and seeing an improvement. But there's often, you know, from what I hear and from what you're...
articulating is there is a plateau that happens quite quickly. And yeah, think a lot of it has to do with the high intensity. It's, you know, it's fast acting, but fatiguing. putting that aside and, you know, looking at this recent member specifically that's has come from this space. Can you tell me a little bit about who the individual is and, you know, what they were doing and what you've done?
with them and the improvements that they've subsequently seen.
Ben Treble (06:48.428) Yeah. Yeah. I don't think this writer is going to have any issue with me talking about him. he's, he's been on our channel, already on our socials for us. And he's also doing his own YouTube thing. So yeah, his name is Joshua. he's over in the U S he was a relatively new writer and he's very simply, he's done some swift programs. one of his goals was around weight loss and the other was to get fitter. Okay. and equally through that process,
He's started to lose weight. He's done some Zwift programs, become a lot fitter. And he's also started to just really enjoy riding. And then he's wanted to both learn more about cycling in general. And he felt like he was starting to plateau with the Zwift work. And that's when he's come through to us at the RCA.
Do you know where he plateaued? of like, you know, obviously FTPs and that metric that we all kind of know. Did he hit a plateau there or was it more just a general feeling of fatigue or just mentally just done?
Yeah, I don't think he, from memory, Joshua didn't, he's not like he's done one FTP tests and done another and realized there was a plateau. It was a general feeling when he came, when we had our first coaching call together, you he just told me that he had a feeling that he was plateauing. Like I didn't feel like he was progressing anymore. Not at the same rate that he was when he started.
Okay, so what was the first thing that you did? I, you know, obviously Joshua's unique, has his own goals, but I'm sure as a general blanket, this kind of scenario would be very, you know, familiar or similar, I should say, for other people in similar situations, you know, where they are doing these off the shelf for, or generic plans and they're feeling like they're plateauing, which was the case for Joshua.
Speaker 2 (08:41.836) What did you do with him as the first step? Did you tell him not to ride for a month? Did you change the training completely? Like what did it look like?
I would say the training, if you looked at his last month before he joined coaching with, with myself on say his fifth program to the first month of training that we did together, it probably looks very different. And part of that comes down to the periodization. So our first conversation, which is the same with any new athlete is around goal setting. one of the things I find seems to be bit of a pattern is yeah, you want to improve your FTP.
and I often ask people why.
Sounds good.
Yeah, sounds good. I want to, and I say, if, if you want to go to the, be able to go to the cafe and just boast about having a bigger FTP, I don't have a problem with that goal. Let's go for it. But often I find when I dig into this, there's a lot more behind it. Okay. You know, it might be, actually, I want to improve my crit racing. Just improving your FTP doesn't necessarily mean you're going to improve your crit racing.
Ben Treble (09:52.82) Equally, you might have someone who says, I want to work towards my grand, my first grand Fondo, like a long, a long event ride, say a hundred K a hundred miles, something like this. And you need to improve my endurance for that. Just focusing purely on FTP also isn't the answer, right? Maybe we need to try and progressively improve volume and look at your nutrition. So that's probably the first step. with Joshua.
We worked out pretty quickly that he wanted to continue to try lose a little bit of weight or at least keep it down. And we also, he wanted to improve his volume and he wanted to improve his FCP. And the reason he wanted to improve the FTP is because he wanted to be able to push higher power for longer on short rides. So improve his anaerobic capacity and utilization.
So what did the training look like? And we can probably make an assumption based off the start of this conversation with the Zwift stuff he was doing versus say the first month that you actually did. we look specifically about zones, what was he doing differently as a target?
Yeah, I would say pretty quickly the two main differences would have been he wasn't really taking full rest weeks. So when we think of periodization, if we do a fairly standard, four week block, we have a three week build into one week of recovery or reduced volume intensity. If you looked at his program, that wasn't really happening. It was just continual progression across say a 12 week Zyft program where the intensity remained very high throughout the whole thing.
And yes, he might've had one or two like days off, the, whenever he rode, was intervals. Right. Very rarely. mean, I wouldn't have found in his last month, like a single session where it was just say a zone one recovery ride for like 45 minutes. So that was probably the first thing that we did is we actually put Josh into more of a base block and we did some critical power testing. Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:55.714) So for those people that don't know what critical power testing is, what is that?
Yeah. So critical power is probably, let's call it an alternative to FTP. And to me, very simply, you could treat it. It's a, again, it's a threshold. Uh, it's a concept threshold and, we get two pieces of information from the testing in difference to FTP. FTP, you get this one piece of information. Let's say you have a threshold of 250 Watts. That's all the information you get. And then you base your zones off it. Critical power.
lets you look at, it's a, it's a very similar notion, but it's a little bit more accurate because it's trying to account for the different balance in your anaerobic anaerobic capacities. So we get this threshold number, critical power, and then we get a second piece of information called your watt prime, which is an estimation of how many kilojoules of energy you should have in reserve when you go above your threshold. Okay. So it says if your critical power is 250 Watts and you have 18, you know, kilojoules,
above in your reserve, can estimate how much can you go in the red before you're to have to back it off. So it's a little bit like having a piece of information around your anaerobic reserve. And with this, you can start to work out when you test, do you get differences? Like what impact is the training that you're doing having on these two numbers? And then again, you're going to create your zones based off critical power.
Yeah, okay. So, and I think that one of the key benefits from a member's or an athlete's perspective is when they do retest, as you said, they've got the two numbers they can look at. It's not just solely focused on the one. In the case of FTP, it's a 20 minute test or it's a ramp test or something like that with critical power. We're looking at two different scenarios. So you can see improvement either across both facets or maybe one specifically.
Ben Treble (13:51.982) Yeah, and the other thing that you're to get from critical power is the most common version of the testing involves doing three maximal efforts. One's usually around sort of the three minute, one's around the six minute and another 10, 12 or longer effort. And with these three numbers, you can create a, it's called a power duration curve. Something maybe a lot of riders probably seen in their Strava or could even have seen in their training peaks before. And this also helps you understand
Like how is your power progressing in the power duration curve?
Yeah, and so really it's three numbers, not two. Yeah, and it depends. mean, if you're testing, because I'm conscious, and I know we're going down a bit of a rabbit hole here on critical power, but you sometimes people, just so we don't overwhelm with testing initially, if they've already got a number where they've gone all out at a specific level, you know, we might say, we've kind of already done this test. Let's not overwhelm. Let's just do a couple. Was that the case with Joshua or did all three of those power tests?
Yeah, we did all three. Yeah, we did a full, full week. I like to separate the efforts on separate days. Uh, you can mix them up on combinations, but particularly with retesting, find often within, you know, sort of if you're retesting every eight to 12 weeks, the nice thing is you often see at least one of those you'll get a PB of towards the end of an eight to 12 week block somewhere. Someone's going to do a power best in that three, six or
sort of 12 minute range or sometimes two out of three and then you only need to do one max effort and you can recalculate their threshold without you know doing a full gamut of testing.
Speaker 2 (15:31.95) So going back to Joshua's story, doing the Zwift program, there was no easier weeks, a lot of intensity plateaued. Now he's done a month of coaching with you and he's really backed it off. He's working more aerobically. He's doing a proper periodization. He's doing some testing. Where's he at after the first month? Because I'm conscious some people, when they step away from these Zwift programs or these, you know,
system programs or whatever it might be. They find it a little bit challenging because they're used to the intensity and they're like, like, what are we doing here? Like, I don't feel like I'm doing much. Was there any pushback or like, how did they feel there?
With Josh there wasn't any pushback, he probably had the question around, you know, I feel like... I think the comment that resonated with me was he said, oh, you know, I feel better, I feel like I have more energy.
okay. For his workouts or just generally during the day?
That was a general comment, but it meant that when he did the hard sessions, when we started to put in, you know, one or twice, once or twice a week, we did some interval sessions after that first month. You know, you've got full energy to go, to go all in on them and you're to recover a lot better from them. and you don't get this, I guess it's this ongoing fatigue, you know, and it's, think when you're in a state of feeling low energy, it's hard to stay motivated. That's one other component. You're not going to adapt and recover.
Ben Treble (16:56.686) I think with Josh, I'm going to flip the coin a little bit on you. I want to talk about what he benefited from if I think in the first month or two from coaching and it wasn't just the programming. So there was a big shift in the programming. And I think for Josh, the biggest sort of benefits he started to get from having a coach that he wouldn't have got from the swift racing was primarily the, it was the ability to ask all sorts of questions that a new rider might have.
And there were questions from setting up, you know, indoor training and connecting different platforms to nutrition questions. He really wanted to work on learning how to eat on the bike to the conversation around one of our goals that we set was I want to do my first race. And what stuck with me greatly was he said to me two weeks out, you know, that's what we focus on. started doing some training for his first crit race. And we talked about cornering technique.
Okay.
Ben Treble (17:54.22) We talked about bunch skills and a week out his bike broke completely kaput. I think his seat post snapped or something. So he comes to me, sends me a message and says, my bike is totally broken. They're going to see if they can get me a replacement. but I probably wouldn't get it till the Friday, like the day or two before. And it's going to be a different model of bike. So it's, I'm not sure. I'm at time for a bike fit.
I'm probably nev
Thu, 04 Sep 2025 - 31min - 61 - The Elephant in the Room (for Masters Cyclists)
Summary
In this episode, the Cam Nicholls and Ryan Thomas discuss the critical role of strength training for cyclists, particularly for masters athletes. They emphasize the importance of incorporating gym workouts into cycling routines to improve performance, bone density, and overall health. The conversation highlights research showing significant benefits of strength training, including increased cycling thresholds and injury prevention. The hosts also address common misconceptions about gym memberships and provide practical advice for integrating strength training into daily life.
Takeaways
Strength training is essential for improving cycling performance. Many cyclists neglect gym workouts, impacting their health. Research shows a 14% increase in cycling threshold with strength training. Cyclists are at risk of lower bone density compared to sedentary individuals. Incorporating strength training can prevent injuries and improve durability. You don't need a gym membership to benefit from strength training. Simple bodyweight exercises can enhance bone health and strength. Regular strength training can improve overall mobility and health as you age. Even minimal strength training can lead to significant performance improvements. It's important to start with a routine that fits your lifestyle.
Cycling and bone health:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20581701 https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-10-168 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3230645/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37630821/
Research here suggests a 12% improvement in lactate threshold, a cycling training zone that is very commonly used while hill climbing.
Research here suggests a 5% improvement in cycling economy, which once again, is commonly the cause for people getting popped while climbing. In other words, they run out of legs.
Research here points to the ability to increase that 5 minute V02 Max power after prolonged periods of sub maximal cycling. In other words, you can still push big watts on fatigued legs.
RCA weight training package: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/weight-training-package/
Cam Nicholls (00:00.482) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas. And Ryan, I've wanted a little bit of a rant here because we've gone on about this one a lot on the RCA YouTube channel quite a lot, our newsletter, even our podcast. We're starting to feed this in quite a fair bit. And it's to do with masters, writers, and going to the gym or...
It's just strength and conditioning. And I'll tell you why I wanted to rant about it little bit today is because I bumped into a channel supporter up here where I live in Noosa a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately, he'd come off his bike, he'd fractured his elbow, had a little operation, got some time off the bike. And after I made sure he was okay and showed some empathy, I gently asked him if he was going to the gym, if he was doing any...
strength work and he said he hadn't been to the, this guy as well I should mention is probably in his mid to late 50s, and he said he hadn't been to gym in maybe 15, 20 years. while I can't confirm exactly that he would have avoided the fracture from going to the gym, there is some very compelling evidence and some science backed research which would suggest he probably might have avoided
the fracture and the break and extended time off the bike if he was going to the gym. And I just wanted to talk about that today. What are you finding with your members? know a lot of your members are kind of over the age of 45. Are they incorporating the gym into their training and how are they finding it? Because it's not just about bone density, which we'll talk about in a second, which is where I'm going with this. There is quite a significant gain you can get as well in terms of your.
you know, your cycling performance and your FTP.
Ryan Thomas (01:59.31) Yeah, absolutely. The story you mentioned is also common. It's we talk to people and it's probably for new members who come to the RCA, it's probably 50-50, I would say. 50 % are doing gym regularly because they really enjoy the gym. 50 % were maybe have done it in the past and they've neglected it because they started riding and that's been their focus. So the 50 % that aren't doing it.
should be if they have the capacity. the capacity is a big thing from my perspective as a coach. I'm always looking at how much time available do you have? If there's time available, then absolutely you need to be doing the gym because the improvements and we talk as one percenters are a big thing, the gym isn't a one percenter. It's a it's a big portion of what you're doing. It's probably one of the biggest low hanging fruits that you can do if you're not doing it already to get an improvement in your cycling performance.
And I've even seen that recently with two or three members who I can think of on the top of my head who are in their late 40s, late 50s, who have started implementing more of a regular gym program with proper resistance training, proper weights. I've seen a big increase in threshold recently in the last 12 weeks. it's not a small improvement. It's a big improvement and everyone can feel it. It's massive.
Yeah, well we'll link to some research in the description. There's one paper in particular I'm thinking of that showed a group of cyclists that went to the gym and those that didn't under the same protocols and they were doing an FTP or a threshold test, a 20 minute test and at the end of the period the group that did or were going to the gym incorporating strength training sort of compared to the
the group that didn't saw a 14 % increase in their threshold, which is pretty significant. That's compelling. The other one that comes up a lot from a performance perspective is one that's probably a bit more difficult to measure, but it's durability. So the ability to deliver high bouts of power at three or four hours deep by going to the gym. you've got more muscular, you've got more reserves.
Cam Nicholls (04:23.486) at a muscular skeletal level, obviously, it makes a lot of sense. But the one that's really alarming for masters athletes, and this actually go, and once again, I'll link to some research in the description, is that there's been some research done on elite riders who are riding pretty significant. And I know we're not elite riders, but this particular study was done on elite riders doing 15 to 20 hours per week that weren't doing gym, and a lot of them were developing osteopenia.
which is basically the pathway to osteoporosis versus a group that were going to the gym who didn't suffer from anything at all. And really what the research indicated was that cyclists compared to sedentary individuals are actually worse off from a bone density perspective, which is really surprising because you would think people that are
fit, healthy and active, so people that ride a bike would actually have good bone health compared to somebody that's sitting on the couch watching Netflix. But it turns out that cycling is just not a great activity for bone density from the very beginning of elite level riders, so late teens, early 20s, and obviously that becomes more severe as you get older, because we know everything deteriorates as you get older, unfortunately, and bone density is a big one.
You know, I think it's you know that research which I'll link to in the description and then anecdotal story recently It's just I feel like it's a bit of an elephant in the room for for cyclists. It's unfortunately it's just one of those areas which you know, it goes against what we're doing and ironically The probability of us hitting the deck harder than somebody who's jogging or somebody who's swimming. They're not going to hit the deck
you know, the risk factor is a lot more significant because you know, we're riding typically on bitumen and you know, falls can happen. So I think it's just a, it's a consideration that, you know, I wanted to put out there for all our listeners, people, particularly in the masters category. And I think, you know, you can get caught up in the world of, you know, okay, what do I need to do? Do I need a gym membership? I had that email recently from a subscriber.
Cam Nicholls (06:47.598) You know, I can't afford a gym membership and I don't have time to go to the gym and as Aaron Turner, our strength and conditioning partner has mentioned many times in previous content, just move stuff around. Are you better off just moving stuff around than going to the gym and focusing on I've got to do three sets of, you know, eight repetitions with four minutes rest in between each and I've got to do deadlifts and I've got to do squats and I said to somebody recently,
go to your sports store, buy one kettlebell, and with that kettlebell, you'll be able to do squats, you'll be able to do lunges, you'll be able to do a deadlift with a kettlebell deadlift, I should say. You know, better do pull-ups so you can get some upper body in there, couple that with some push-ups and some ab work. You can actually create your own workout pretty easy. And that in itself,
you'll go a long way in, you maybe that's less performance orientated. I'm sure you'll get some performance benefit out of that, but it's going to go a long way in supporting, you know, your bone health as you age, as a master's cyclist. Anything to add to that?
And even not as a master's psych, I'm even thinking about it, I'm 30. I'm thinking about bone density and overall health. think the impact on overall health. there's other benefits aside from the bone density as well. I recently had an athlete who did a blood test and they had low testosterone levels. the best way to increase your testosterone is to do strength and conditioning because it promotes...
it promotes the anabolic muscle building and that you need testosterone to do that. So there's a lot of other benefits that's from a male perspective, it's obviously similar for a female as well, testosterone is still beneficial for a female. So both sides of that equation are really beneficial. the overall impact on strength and conditioning and just moving stuff around and even just moving your body around from a weight.
Ryan Thomas (09:03.852) bearing perspective, we're actually, general health, the beneficial and bone density, we need to move more weight than you're carrying on your body. So if you had two kilos or five kilos or you do jumps instead of, don't even need weights. doing a jump squat, landing on that, you're putting more force through your bones than you are doing standing still. That's all you're trying to do. You're trying to put more pressure.
more force, more impact through your bones than you are in a stationary position. So you don't even need your kettlebell. Go and do some jump squats, do some pushups, do some pushup like claps, do so many little things and simple movements that you can do even without weights that are gonna support bone density and testosterone and general mobility and movement.
The common one that I get on get for riders all the time is I've got a sore back and sore back. that's one of the cause that's the cause like the that's the effect of maybe a weak core or weak glute. So it's all of these things that you may feel on the bike. I'm getting sore arms or I'm getting a sore neck or getting sore back on my knee. I would guarantee almost guarantee that all of it can be fixed with strength and conditioning.
and mobility and that's proven and almost everyone who you talk to about it and you start implementing it regularly, it's like, well, within a week or two, I'm not feeling that pain anymore. It's like, all of my muscles are working properly. All of those neuromuscular connections, I'm actually turning my core on or I'm turning my glute on before I ride and all of those muscles are working out equally as opposed to ones that you only work.
quite often, so if you're sitting at a desk all the time, you're always in the same position, you need to move in different ways to incorporate different muscle groups and I guarantee you that you'll just feel better on the bike, even without the performance improvement, you'll feel more stable, more comfortable, less pain generally on the bike if you're incorporating some sort of movement, strengthening, conditioning work two times a week.
Cam Nicholls (11:20.27) Yeah, and there has been a lot of research done on just increasing core musculature and that improvement on climbing. A lot of people would improve their climbing. Just start doing some more sit ups. That'll help with your bone density, particularly around your lumbar spine and around the central. It'll also help with your climbing. And that's free. You can do that anywhere. So I guess the...
You know, the question that some people might have then all this, how do I incorporate it? How often do I need to do it? You know, according to the science, you want to be going to the gym, you know, twice a week to build strength. And then you can maintain that strength that you've developed in the gym for up to 13 weeks by doing a maintenance session once a week. That's according to the science. I know personally, I can maintain the same level of strength that I've developed over the years by just doing one maintenance session.
a week. That just works for me. And I think if you're looking to incorporate something, just start with something once a week. Work out a little routine that works for you, whether it's doing what Ryan says, just incorporating some free body weights, push-ups, squat jumps, things like that. Impact stuff. Set up a little routine, do it for half an hour, and just incorporate that once a week for four to eight weeks. And then just to note how you feel on the bike after that.
outside of the fact that you're going to be doing yourself a lot of value in terms of bone density longer term, heaven forbid if you have a fall. And start there and maybe you can progress for there. But that is all it takes.
Yeah, you don't need a gym membership. mean, a lot of people are like, I don't want to go to a gym or you don't like the atmosphere at a gym or it's too expensive. It's too hard to get to. You don't need a gym. It's very, it's a lot simpler than you think. And I think a lot of people will overcomplicate strength and conditioning. It's a lot simpler than you think.
Cam Nicholls (13:24.194) Yep, exactly. So yeah, that's my rant over and done with. just, you know, I'm just trying to make sure that everyone's aware if you ride a bike and you're not going to the gym, you've got to be aware of bone density, particularly as you get older. And I know a lot of our members and a lot of our listeners are, you know, in that master's category. So it's something that needs to be front of mind, something you need to be considering and something that you should be doing.
And it will help with the muscle density as well. Like just having a better musculature as you age, everyone's going to benefit from that. Aside from the bone density, you're going to be able to sit up and out of a chair, sit down in a chair for maybe a couple extra years as you get into your 80s maybe. That's another extra added benefit that not a lot of us want to think about right now, but it is there.
Yeah, well, I mean just a quick anecdote I actually have been pushing my my father who's 76 to go to the gym for years and it took him to have some weird thing that was going on with his arms he was getting pins and needles and he couldn't figure out what it what it was this is probably three years ago and this is despite the fact I've been at him for years to go to the gym he doesn't ride a bike by the way he's just like it doesn't do anything I'm like that bone density bone density because it's you know, you know, it's
It deteriorates as you age no matter what and if you're a cyclist, you're going to be worse off unfortunately than sedentary individuals. The sedentary individuals are still not good. Anyway, he finally took the doctor's advice after I'd been banging on for years about it. Goes to the gym, gets rid of the tingling sensation in his arm. yeah, it's gone away now. A few months later, he's like, you know what? He's got a Mustang which is low to the ground. He goes, it's so much easier to get out of my car these days.
Even the small things like that, you know, it can help with.
Ryan Thomas (15:11.552) Absolutely.
Cool. All right, well look, if you're listening to this and maybe you wanna go a little bit further or a little bit deeper on the strength and conditioning side and you do have a gym membership or you're willing to invest into a gym membership, we do have a program on our website. So you go to www.roadcyclingacademy.com. There's something there called the weight training package. It's got a beginner, intermediate and advanced downloadable programs all with video.
tutorials and each exercise has a video demonstration as well and you get lifetime access to this. It's put together by Aaron Turner, the strength and conditioning coach. So that's a resource there if you wanna have a look and we'll catch you in the next podcast.
Fri, 29 Aug 2025 - 15min - 60 - Are the Tour de France Pros Doping? We give our thoughts...
Summary
In this episode, Ryan Thomas discusses the remarkable advancements in professional cycling performance, particularly in the context of the Tour de France. He explores the evolution of nutrition, training science, and equipment, highlighting how these factors contribute to the impressive numbers seen in today's cyclists. The conversation also touches on the importance of small improvements, or 'one percenters', and concludes with a discussion on the integrity of the sport.
Takeaways
The Tour de France has seen unprecedented average speeds. Nutrition strategies have evolved significantly over the years. Training science has improved, allowing for better performance without excessive fatigue. The concept of 'one percenters' has become crucial for pro cyclists. Equipment advancements have dramatically changed cycling performance. Pro cyclists are now able to consume more carbohydrates during races. The focus on recovery has become as important as training. Heat and altitude training are now integral to pro cycling preparation. The use of technology in training has increased consistency and performance. There is a growing belief in the integrity of the sport among some athletes.
Chapters
00:00 The Evolution of Pro Cycling Performance 03:12 Nutrition: The Game Changer 05:57 Training Science: A New Era 08:45 The Impact of One Percenters 12:03 Equipment Advancements in Cycling 14:51 The Clean Sport Debate
Get coached by the Road Cycling Academy: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/one-to-one-coaching/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.046) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined by the RCA's head coach Ryan Thomas and today Ryan I wanted to talk about Tour de France pros. We just finished Tour de France 2025 and as per normal there's a lot of speculation about the pros numbers, the watts per kilos, like how are the pros doing these numbers compared to the pros of 10, 20 years ago and we know a lot of them were on the juice.
How is this possible? So, I wanted to get your perspective, because I think you work in this space, you live and breathe it. You know pros, I mean, you almost made a pro yourself, so you know guys over there in the mix. You're also in the training world, living and breathing it. You're in the nutrition world, you're in the 1 % of world, heat, altitude, all these type of things. So I feel like your perspective versus the guy that...
watches Tour de France highlights every morning and then goes off to work and has an opinion is probably a little bit more valid. And I feel like because you know all these things, your perspective is probably gonna be more on the, understand why they've improved so much versus yeah, they're on some new drug that nobody knows about. So I think you've got four things that you wanted to run through to give us a bit of insight or context as to why the pros are doing.
the ridiculous numbers that they are. So over to you.
Yeah, it's actually pretty wild. think the Tour de France was the fastest average speed for the tour ever. I think it was like around 43k an hour or something. yeah, really, really quick.
Ryan Thomas (01:45.098) and you see it in, there's all the pros are talking about it. If you listen to podcasts with the pros, I'll see YouTube content with them. They're, they're all saying that the racing is just getting harder and harder. and there's, good reason for it. It's, there's a lot of increase in technology. So, and science, the four things just quickly, and then I'll dive into each one of them individually. The four things we're looking at are nutrition. So we all know that nutrition is a big, big topic at the moment. So that obviously has a massive impact.
second one would be training science, an application. So nutrition plays an impact on that, but over the last 10 years, 15 years, 20 years since Lance, was winning the tour, for example, training has come a long, long way. we know how to train properly and accurately and consistently now without causing too much extra fatigue. third one would be the, the one percenters, the training one percenters, the little things that
all the World Tour teams are doing now that they did in the past, but they're doing much better now because of science and applied application in science and training. And the fourth one, which isn't really, I'm not going to dive into too much, but we know that it's there, is the equipment change. So in the 1995, 2000s, equipment was terrible compared to now. Like two kilos heavier and bearings are slower and everything was slower.
There's, yeah, they're the four things that I think are having the biggest impact and I think most people would agree on those.
Okay, you know I'm a fan of rim brake bikes, Ryan. I'm not going to be taking offense to this, I?
Ryan Thomas (03:28.25) Yeah, well, I'm not big on the bikes. I'll leave that. I'll the bike criticism up to you. That's your area. I'll talk about what I know best. So first one, nutrition. We know that nutrition has come all the way. Just an example, like even when I was racing in Europe and doing races, I remember taking in like
Our nutrition strategy doing like 180, 200 kilometer race was to take one to two gels an hour. And a gel was like 20 to 25 grams of carbs. Like that was literally the nutrition strategy. Get some hydrolyte or a salt tablet in every hour and take in a bottle an hour. So that's so different to what it is now. Like it's maybe a third, a quarter of what we're taking in now, even for a training session, let alone a race. So.
Would be, to interrupt.
Just to dig into that one for two seconds, would it be fair to say as well that it was more of an afterthought versus like a top of the tree strategy?
100%. Yeah, it was a nutrition. I think there were a few people who were ahead of the game and were forgetting in getting in a lot then a lot being like 60 grams an hour. But I think there was, yeah, the main thought was you just need to ride a lot. You need to get fit. Your body needs to get strong. And the nutrition is, yeah, it's there. And you eat a lot before and you eat a lot after, but during wasn't thought of as this big.
Ryan Thomas (05:05.39) big performance intake, I think. I was never, we were never educated on it as young cyclists back in like 2013 to 2020, like that sort of era, even 2018, like that sort of era wasn't, yeah, it wasn't a big focus. The focus was around nutrition off the bike rather than on the bike, I would say. And I know like it's not, story isn't uncommon. Like every person I talked to was racing around that era and even before it was like,
You hear stories about people knew that they were on good form when they could go and do four or five hours on a long black. Like you could just, that was just their, that was their benchmark to know that they were going well, that their body was just so tolerant under load and under feeling and not being, being able to cope with limited amount of fuel that you just, your body just adapted. So we know that you put your body under stress and it adapts to a specific stressor.
that the stressor that we were putting ourselves on was under feeling and learning to have bodies were just learning to conserve, conserve, conserve. And we're all struggling towards the end of races and everyone was in the same boat really, but that's massive, massive reason why races are going faster and more intensity throughout the whole stages and the whole tours, for example. They can just, when you're taking in 150 grams an hour, it's just not, your body just doesn't shut down.
Yeah, and I look I am just some old bloke that races in the amateur scene in in Queensland, right? So I'm a nobody but if I just think about my own little experience recently where I went all in on the carbs and I was I was you know, I was trying to teach the gut how to tolerate, know around 100 to 125 grams of carbs per hour on the big sessions in preparation for a big event and I feel like
The reason why I performed out of my skin at the event and I was able to deliver high levels of power You know at five hours deep into the event and I was shocking myself I'm like this person isn't me was not because I was doing it in the event It was because I had done it in training for like many months leading into the event and it's the compounding effect right so like what the pros would be doing at a much superior level than I'm doing is
Cam Nicholls (07:26.478) If you can actually do it in training, then you're able to push your physiology to levels that you previously weren't able to push yourself to. And then because you're fueling better in terms of recovery, you're recovering better as well. And we know in recovery, that's where, so if you're pushing yourself better, then you're recovering better. So you're absorbing those fitness adaptations. And then the next training session, because you push yourself further, you can push yourself further again. And it's just like this compounding effect that over time, you're just always able to go.
above and beyond what you previously would have been able to by under fueling and also you're adapting better because you're recovering better. And the pros have been doing this now for this, how long is this nutrition way of eating been in like as a focus for now three or four years. The compounding effect over three or four years is like, I just look at that standalone and it actually makes sense to me that they're doing the numbers that they are.
Yeah, 100%. There's two examples that I can think of in the Tour de France. Just from, if you follow a lot of cycling content on Instagram and YouTube, there's two people that posted interesting stuff, Power and Nutrition. Harry Sweeney from EF, they post a lot of interesting stuff. And he was talking about, there was one day when Ben Healy was in the yellow jersey and the amount of carbs that he was taking, because he was riding super freaking hard on the front.
He said for one hour, he doesn't even remember how many carbs he took because he was just like having like four gels in like 20 minutes. He said like 160 grams of carbs an hour in when he was going really hard. So it's just like, they're just getting in as much as possible. And I don't, they do not know where the limit is at the moment. if someone like Harry can take in 150 plus an hour, we don't know where the limit is.
And it used to, the limit used to be like three years ago, was like 90 grams of carbs an hour was all your body could take. And then it went to 120. And now people are taking 150 plus. So the limit is constantly getting more. What you were talking about, the other athlete is really interesting is Tim Wellens. In the second week of the tour on those power numbers, he did his best 10 and 20 minute power ever in the second week of the tour.
Ryan Thomas (09:48.546) For someone who's been a pro for, he's probably been a pro for 15 years. Like to do that two weeks into a tour was probably unheard of. And in the middle of a stage race, think that goes, like this is going into our first point. And our second point is that the training and the nutrition, they're recovering so good that every day is the same. They're not getting to the third week of the tour and people are like struggling because people are just getting better and better and better. They're adapting.
every single day they're adapting within the tour. And some people, not this isn't an ivory one, because I haven't been there and I don't know what it's like, but I imagine that some people would be getting stronger throughout the tour. Like in the second and third week they're like, my legs are starting to turn up here because I've been putting some serious load in them.
Hmm yeah, and even the even though I know you're gonna talk about other one one percenters shortly But even the little one percenters that they do like immediately after they finish. It's like here's a bottle of you know things but I know like so for example I was with Visma at stage three behind the scenes, you know, one of the things that they have in the bottle is they've got carbs but they pour a
bottle of ketone IQ as well in there, so they're getting some ketones in as well. They're also having this red drink, which is a cherry juice, which is all about inflammation. And they're doing lots of these little 1 %ers in addition to the carbs. So there's a lot going on there that never used to go on.
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And I think going into the second point, the training science and improvement. And I think that also, that all comes down to consistency in what you're able to do week in, week out in a training block. We see people racing less now and focusing on training as opposed to using racing as their main preparation for big races. So the World Tour pros, I was...
Ryan Thomas (11:43.278) Listening to watching a thing about Lance the other day and he was talking he used to get 40 to 50 race days in before the tour like that was Need to get those race legs to be able to be good for the tour But now you see people like Jonas and Tade like they do their big races at the start of season They may only do two two races in this couple of months before the two I know this is the same with a lot of other riders, but there's two best examples Is that they're using? racing as a fine tune
for that one, 2 % extra in the month leading into the race, as opposed to doing racing for two, three months before to get really strong and fit and used to the racing. They can do all that in training now because we're all the science and the measuring tools that we have are so, so far above what it used to be 20 years ago that they can do the training and get a similar stimulus out of the training as they would in a racing and get to 98%, 97 % of what their max capacity is. then that two,
2-3 % comes from those couple of races that they do as opposed to three months of racing for 30 race days before the tour.
Hmm interesting so and just from your perspective when you started training to try and make through the pro ranks But you know 2010 to 2015. What was the general? What was the general training strategy because I just add a layer on to that before you respond I remember interviewing a pro called Mickey Shah from AG2R a few years ago. He's a I interviewed him at BMC HQ and
He was a Swiss rider coming through the ranks similar maybe a little bit before you, he's like mid to late 30s. But he was saying that when he first got into it, it was just all about volume. That was really the key, volume, volume, volume. And he wouldn't put his bibs on if he wasn't going for longer than three hours. They would sprint to the next town.
Cam Nicholls (13:43.342) bonking and then they would, you know, fill up with a croissant and a Coke and then they're off for another few hours. And that was, that really shocked me to know that that was the like guys getting into the pro level racing, you know, the kids, that was what they were trying to do, just do lots of volume. And it was no real specificity surrounding, you know, high intensity interval training.
Yeah, that was probably my experience until I started in a continental team and got some good coaches. Before that, it was just, yeah, go out and try and ride as long as possible. And when you're feeling good, go really hard, go long and experience the bonk. Like if it was really a week when you're training hard, where you didn't have two rides where you were bonking hard towards the end of a ride. Like that was just a normal, that was a normal experience for someone.
training three to five hours a day, for example. And I would argue that not many people, people training now, you're probably not bonking many, you wouldn't bonk at all. Cause if you're taking a 90 to a hundred grams of carbs an hour every session, like you get back from a three, four hour ride, even a five hour ride and you're like, cool, that was hard, but I'm ready to go and ready to go again the next day. And I think that's where, yeah, that's the specific training improvement is that we know how long
We know more about how long it takes to recover from a high intensity or a really hard session. you see less, you used to see a lot, was just like intensity, intensity, intensity. Like you're smashing the load. So you're trying to put as much stress on the body as you can, and then you're going into a vent and you taper. And it worked because your body adapts to what you're giving to it. But there's a better way to do it. It's not.
It's not do intensity every day. It's intensity then you rest for two, like a do zone two, and then you rest, and then you go intense again. And the quality out of that intensity, with the change over the last 10 to 15, 20 years, the quality of intensity now is much, much higher because we know the importance of being able to put an extra 20 to 50 watts out in a high intensity session is so gonna give you so much more reward than being fatigued.
Ryan Thomas (15:59.756) and being able to do that session. Because the old school mindset was, well, if I can do this fatigued and I can put out 90 % of what I should be able to do when I'm fresh, if I can do it fatigued, then God, it's going to be easy when I'm fresh. It's the same old school mentality as you used to have the set of training wheels that were really heavy and slow and you used to put shitty tires on them so they made you feel slow. And then you put your race wheels on and your race tires and it's like, God, this is like a F1 car. Like it's insane.
So that was the old school mentality is you make everything as hard as possible in training so it's easier in racing, but it's nowhere near the case now. We know that if you go faster and you go better in training, the better you are in racing.
Hmm. Okay, what's the third one?
The one percenters we spoke, you spoke about it a little bit before, but all of the little things that they're doing now, it just, yeah, I think it adds up to much more than one percent. You're probably looking at more of five percent overall from an improvement perspective. I'll just list them off and I'm not going to go into all of them because they're probably all their own podcast topic each. But you look at altitude training camps and I think that
The adaptation in the last period from altitude training camps is they know that doing a specific number of them or spending a specific amount of time up there and the measuring tools that they're using at altitude for recovery, HIV and resting heart rate, for example, we know how to train better altitude now and the impact that it has and doing multiple stages, multiple training camps at altitude has a bigger impact. So if you do...
Ryan Thomas (17:41.42) three, four a year, I'd say most of the pros are doing now and even 80 % of the pros are probably living at altitude to train, live high, train low, that sort of theory that we know that if you, the multiple exposures to it, later exposure towards a race will have a better impact, similar with heat training. that sort of, that adaptation and the improvements in applying altitude training for an improvement in performance has come a long way.
The other one linked to that is kind of heat training and heat training is something that's probably only been around for five years, maybe a little bit longer than that. Eight years maybe. I remember doing it a while ago when I was still training really hard. That was probably eight years ago now. But the heat training now is such a big factor for improving our physiology and our blood volume.
oxygen carrying capacity and we know the impact of that because it's been studied so much in the last five years that everyone's getting on that train and the pros can use it as a tool, especially for hot races like Tour of Spain is going to be coming up in three weeks. So I imagine any pro that's doing Tour of Spain has just started their heat protocol now and is going at it hard because they get 40 degree days
Thu, 14 Aug 2025 - 25min - 59 - Mastering Amy's Gran Fondo (the UCI World Gran Fondo Champs 2025)
Summary:
In this episode, Ryan Thomas, head coach at RCA, discusses the specific training and preparation needed for the UCI World Gran Fondo Championships. He breaks down the unique demands of the course, emphasising the importance of threshold power and fatigue resistance. The conversation covers key training sessions, race day strategies, and nutrition tips to ensure optimal performance. Listeners gain insights into how to effectively prepare for this challenging event, making it relevant for both participants and those training for similar races.
Key Takeaways:
The UCI World Gran Fondo Championships require specific training due to unique course demands. Understanding the course layout is crucial for effective training preparation. Key training sessions include threshold efforts and over-unders to build capacity. Fatigue resistance is essential for performing well in long events like Grand Fondos. Nutrition strategies should be practiced during training to avoid issues on race day. A proper warm-up is vital to prepare for the intense start of the race. Riders should focus on carbohydrate intake before and during the event. Incorporating hard efforts into long rides helps simulate race conditions. Coaching can provide tailored strategies for individual riders' needs. Consistency in training and nutrition leads to better performance outcomes.
Chapters:
00:00 Preparing for the UCI World Grand Fondo Championships 05:14 Understanding the Course Demands 08:56 Key Training Sessions for Success 13:21 Race Day Strategies and Nutrition 20:03 Final Tips for Optimal Performance
RCA Coaching: https://roadcyclingacademy.com/
Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00.184) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined by the RCA's head coach Ryan Thomas and I know Ryan is coaching a lot of people at the moment. I he's got about 15 RCA members that are preparing for the UCI World Grand Fondo Championships which is held, are gonna be held in Lawn this year, alongside or in conjunction with Amy's Grand Fondo, so in October. And...
I know there's a lot of people out there preparing for this event. And look, if you're not preparing for this event and you're preparing for a Fondo, either this year or next year, you'll probably get good value out of this discussion irrespective. But we are gonna focus on this event, because it's quite specific, the terrain and the typical training that you would do for a grand Fondo is gonna vary a little bit for this one. I don't know, it's gonna vary for any Fondo event because of the course, but this one's quite unique, which Ryan's gonna get into.
Ryan, talk me through the 15 people that you're coaching for this event. How are you preparing them for this event? What are you doing exactly?
Yeah, so it is a really interesting course and it's quite a demanding course, it's in, there's a few, you want to break the course down in the first case to see what you're actually looking at. And I've done this course myself and I'll be racing the world championships myself as well. So I understand the exact demands, which really helps for something like this and training people for the specific course.
So first thing you would do if you sign up for any Grand Fondo, you want to look at the course and what's going to be the demands of the course. And this one is it's 130 K. The distance isn't huge, but the first eight kilometers, 10 kilometers is straight uphill. Like literally 200 meters after the start line, you're going straight uphill. And it's not a steep climb. It's around four to four and a half, five percent average for that eight and a half K.
Ryan Thomas (RCA Head Coach) (02:05.088) So it's not a, it's not super demanding from that respect, but that's the first 20 to 30 minutes, depending on what level you are, is going to define your whole race. the physiologically, what you need to be able to do is you need to be able to do a 20 minute to 30 minute full gas effort out of the gun to be able to be in the best group possible. And then you need to train for the rest of it as well. So what that looks like is having a
trying to get as high as threshold as possible in the period in eight weeks leading into it, 12 weeks leading into it, for example. So at the moment we're 11 weeks out, 11 to 12 weeks out as we record this. So now for 12 weeks out towards eight weeks out, we're looking at really building a solid capacity at threshold power and being really good at handling riding at that steady power for 20 minutes. So.
If you haven't got a 20 minute climb or a 30 minute climb in your area, so you need to be able to ride hard for 20 to 30 minutes. And if you can't do that, then you need to start training for something like that. So that's the first part of the course. Second part of the course is like flat undulating, rolly, 30 to 40 kilometres worth. So it's not super demanding physiologically. You're going to be in a group. You're going to be riding zone two, zone three.
some zone four on the front if you're pulling a turn. So physiologically, it's not that challenging. That first part is gonna define the group. And then if you're in the group, whatever group you're in, they're gonna be very similar physiology to you because you've all just done a really hard effort to get there. So you're gonna be matched with the people you're with. So rolling turns is gonna be nice and easy. Third part of the course is another climb. We've got another 20 minute roughly undulating climb.
So it's very different to the first climb. It goes up in ramps. So you get ramps of 10 to 12%, and it flattens off, and then it pinches again at 10%, 8%. So it does that for about 20 to 25 minutes, which is quite hard. It's more of a VO2 anaerobic spike, and then you're sitting back down in tempo threshold. So it's like, think about over-unders for like 25 minutes is kind of what the physiology that you need to be able to do.
Ryan Thomas (RCA Head Coach) (04:27.726) Once you get to the top of that climb, beautiful 10, 15 minutes, 60, 70 K an hour descent. Really not super technical, it's nice and windy, there's a couple of hard corners in there, but got 10, 15 minutes just to back off the power, recover, get down to the coast road. Then you've got 30 K, 35 K along the coast, which is rolling. A couple of short, punchy climbs, but nothing super hard. By that point, you're just going, giving it your all.
So it's a really interesting course. It's an awesome course. It's an awesome course to race. But the main physiological things that you need to train for is around your threshold because that first 20 to 30 minute climb and then the second climb are the big defining points of the course.
So can you give us a bit of a flavour, and I know you're working with 15 people that all have different logistics and different available training times and, you know, they're different fitness levels, different goals.
how long is a piece of string, but I'm going to ask you a pretty specific question because that's what the listeners want, Ryan. What's some example sessions that you kind of, I'm assuming over-unders is a session that you're probably working with some of your clients on, but could you maybe tell the listeners what does that session look like and what are some other sessions that you're doing specifically to condition the riders for this event?
Yeah, key sessions for this one, think, are your standard threshold, which we're starting at the moment for most athletes, you're starting around four by eights, working to five by eight threshold, and then you're lengthening the threshold effort. So we want to get 10, 12, 15 minute threshold efforts in. That foundational work is really important. In the previous weeks and in this first building phase, you want to do
Ryan Thomas (RCA Head Coach) (06:22.626) some really good threshold work around sweet spots. So doing those 20, 30 minute efforts at sweet spot sub threshold, getting that ability to actually ride at a sub threshold level for 20 to 30 minutes. Because that sets the foundation for being able to do it at threshold and maybe in slightly above threshold and then do over the under is at over threshold. So the foundational sessions there are two by 20 or three by 20 at tempo sweet spot.
That's the first foundational session that we want to work on. The second session that I would work on in there is threshold. So starting at four by eight threshold power. So what's it?
What's 4x8? Can you give us a, just break down what a 4x8 session looks like?
Yep, 20, 20 minute warmup with a couple of activations in there, working activations, you want to be doing them at sort of what power you're doing in your interval. So two by one minutes or a ramp up to threshold, for example, a four minute ramp, recover. And then we do four by eight minute efforts at 97 to a hundred percent of threshold power with four minutes recovery in the middle there. And that recovery can be descending back down a hill if you've got a nice eight minute hill in your area, or it can just be in.
Design One Power.
Ryan Thomas (RCA Head Coach) (07:42.261) zone to it.
That's a four by eight is like, that's the first session. If you're to start doing any threshold work, four by eight is usually the one I would go to because it's the easiest to achieve. And then from there, we start either adding a repetition on. So doing five by eights with the same recovery. And then we either start reducing recovery or adding time onto the effort. So there's two different ways you can go there depending on.
what hill you got available, whether you're indoors or outdoors. So that all comes down to your specific context. But we really want to lengthen that time to exhaustion at threshold. We don't necessarily want to, if you're thinking about that session, and a lot of people asked this to me within the RCA, the people that we're coaching, and one day you might feel really good doing a threshold session. Do I increase my power or do I do more?
And at threshold, if we start increasing our power, we're getting up into that VO2 territory. So we're getting a little, slightly different adaptation. For a threshold effort, we kind of want to increase our time to exhaustion. adding an extra two, three minutes onto each effort or doing an extra effort if you're feeling really good that day is, that's going to give you more of a physiological larger threshold capacity or a larger engine rather than lifting the ceiling. We don't necessarily want to lift the ceiling too much in threshold. We want to...
bigger capacity.
Cam Nicholls (09:07.662) Okay, cool. So they're kind of like a couple of key sessions that you would develop over the course of an eight to 12 week period. And I'm assuming at some point you're sort of taking the sustained sweet spot efforts towards the end and you're turning them into sustained threshold efforts. But where do you factor in the need to be able to deliver a big blow at the...
upfront and then be able to ride pretty solid for two to three hours after that big blow because that's the event, right? So are you incorporating that type of conditioning into the training as well?
100%. A lot of that comes from normal training anyway. So most people, if you're doing an interval session, you're generally very fresh, right? So doing a VO2 session or 30-15 session, which we would incorporate six to eight weeks out to really add on top of your threshold capacity. That type of work you're doing after 10 to 15 warmup and you're going as hard as you can in that type of session. that going out of the gun, I don't think that needs to be trained too much.
I think it's going out of the gun really hard and then doing another three or four hours at the end of it is the thing that needs to be trained because that's the hard bit. Most people will be able to do a pretty hard effort out of the gun and we'll do that regularly in their training because that's what intervals demand. The specificity for that event or preparing for something like that will come on your longer rides on the weekend. So you want to do a specific ride and it's
We're not necessarily looking at a specific physiological adaptation when we're doing these things, maybe a bit of fatigue resistance, but on a weekend you want to do two to three rides where you're doing a similar style of effort of what you're going to be required to for that event. And that can come from doing an event prior. So a lot of people in Australia, there's the Masters Nationals Championships held a couple of weeks before. So it's only 70 kilometres, but it's still a really good top end workout to do.
Ryan Thomas (RCA Head Coach) (11:15.866) And for example, if anyone's doing that, I would actually recommend doing that workout, doing the race and then doing an hour or two after it if your goal is world championships. So that type of work is really important. But specifically for amies, if you're not doing any racing, you would do a three, four, five hour, depending on what your goal time is for that 130K event. You want to do hard effort at the start. Doesn't matter too much what that effort is. I would say it could be some VO2, it could be some threshold.
just do something quite challenging for 20 to 30 minutes of accumulated work in that first hour. Do two, three hours of endurance and then start doing some efforts towards the end. So do some over-unders or do some 30-30s, 30-15s. So similar, but doesn't need to be exactly what that terrain's gonna demand because we can't predict exactly what it's gonna look like. we're trying to just make, your body used to working hard.
after already doing two hours, two and a half hours, three hours of hard work. So a lot of people will do for fatigue resistance, and I think this is where fatigue resistance gets a bit lost in most people. They'll go and do a two, three hour ride at zone two, and then they'll do something hard. If you do that, you're not reducing any of your top end capacity. It's very aerobically demanding and it's hard on your muscles, but...
You're not taking any of that glycogen storage away. You're not doing what it's gonna be like in a race. You're gonna be spiking over thresholds so many times in that two to three hours before you get to that second climb in the world championships course. You need to replicate that. So you need to do some hard work over threshold, depending on what it is and it'll vary for each person and what their terrain looks like. But do some hard work in that first hour, settle in for an hour or two, then do some more hard work.
replicate the same sort of interval. That's gonna be the best way to prepare you to go hard for that first bit, which you're doing in other parts of your training. But important part is that second climb where most people, people last year who did the course, they're people who were getting dropped from groups. I can probably say that they didn't do that hard start and then hard end. So there's that second climb is the other crunch point that's gonna be defining for you.
Cam Nicholls (13:37.186) So I recommended to a rider up here that we don't coach but he just rides in the bunch ride and he asked me what I would recommend. What do you think about this strategy, So our local bunch ride takes off pretty easy and it's flat, goes relatively hard on the flats and then it hits this area called Black Mountain and it's quite lumpy, so like that second part of Amy's. So I said to him, I said get on the trainer on Saturday morning.
do it like a Zwift race, which is like typically tempo threshold for like, you know, 20, 30 minutes, get off, get on your bike, potter to, you know, the local bunch ride start, which sort of takes off pretty easy and then do the bunch. And I felt like that was a good sort of way of conditioning himself because he's gonna do this, essentially sweet spot tempo threshold effort out of the gate, then he's gonna cruise for a bit.
then he's going to get the bunch ride cruise for a bit longer then it's going to go fast along the flats and then he's going to hit this like hilly lumpy section and he's going to have to go hard again and then it finishes off pretty flat pretty fast so what do you reckon about that?
Almost perfect.
nice, there you go.
Ryan Thomas (RCA Head Coach) (14:52.718) Yeah, yeah, I'd be really good. It's a bit hard, like doing an indoor ride and then going outdoors, people would probably arc up against that, I would say. So you'd probably get a bit of resistance recommending that. The other scenario is most people do a local bunch ride on a weekend, whether it's two, three, four hours, whatever it is. The best recommendation in a bunch ride is usually hard, whether you do some chop off in it or whatever it is, but do your bunch ride.
Do some zone two, maybe half an hour for your bunch ride, I it's around three hours. So do your three hour bunch ride. Go, I'd probably miss the coffee because it's not specific for your event. So reduce your stopping time. Go on to another 30 minutes, 40 minutes in zone two. Just let your body recover a little bit from the hard effort, usually at the end of a bunch ride. And then for you, I'd go to Gindya Drive and do some six to eight minute hill repeats or over-unders up Gindya Drive, do three or four of those.
doing a bunch ride, adding in some zone two after and then going, doing some threshold over under style work is gonna be very specific for what you're gonna need to do at Amys.
Yep, cool. And so that's very much touching on the training component. With your members, what sort of carbohydrate strategy are you trying to get them to during, knowing that you should be aiming for somewhere between one to four grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight three to four hours before the event. You're probably not gonna do it three to four hours before Amy's, because Amy starts early, so.
You wanna start conditioning yourself in training to maybe an hour, an hour and a half before you go out, get at least sort of one to two grams of carbs per kilogram of body weight. So it depends on your body weight. Like if you weigh 100 kilos, like getting four grams per kilo is 400 grams of carbs, good luck. But obviously you wanna have a big substantial meal before, you wanna be carb loading the day beforehand. So let's not go too much into that because that's gonna be very variable.
Cam Nicholls (17:00.462) for the person, but just make sure you're focusing on that if you're listening. You'll wanna have a big meal before and condition yourself in training to be able to tolerate that before you go and ride hard for three or four hours, because if you just do it on event day and you haven't done it before, you'll have a crook guts. But what about the actual, like once you start the ride, because it's gonna be hard to fuel in the first half an hour to an hour, because you're gonna be fighting for wheels, you're gonna be going up the climb.
So what are you recommending? A gel on the start line, 90 grams in the bottles, how big are the bottles? What are you suggesting there?
Yeah. So the preparation and morning of, think something that's often forgotten or neglected is the, if you have a meal two to three hours before and you don't have anything for two hours before the race, you're going to be like, you're not stopping up as you're going. You're still burning energy in that morning. You don't do your warmup. So having for the hour before the start, I would say you probably should have a
a whole bottle of whatever you want to have. I'd just probably have a, what I'll be doing is I'll have my, I'll have my morning, I'll have my breakfast three hours before, and then I'll sit down and relax a bit, just prepare, staying close. So think about an hour before I'm going to start thinking about warming up, getting kitted up. But that one hour before I'll have a bottle of maybe 60 to 80 grams of carbohydrates and I'll aim to finish that before I start. So.
havi
Fri, 08 Aug 2025 - 21min - 58 - Want to Ride Faster? Don't Ignore Substrate Utilization
Summary
In this episode of the RCA podcast, host Cam Nicholls discusses the new substrate utilization feature in TrainingPeaks with head coach Ryan Thomas. They explore the importance of carbohydrate intake for cyclists, particularly during endurance rides, and how the new feature can help cyclists understand their fueling needs better. The conversation delves into the science behind substrate utilization, the significance of fat adaptation, and practical strategies for cyclists to optimize their performance through proper nutrition. Ryan emphasizes the need for accountability in fueling and the role of coaching in helping cyclists navigate these new insights.
Takeaways
Substrate utilization refers to the balance of carbohydrates and fats burned during exercise. The new TrainingPeaks feature helps cyclists estimate their carbohydrate needs during rides. Most amateur cyclists do not consume enough carbohydrates for optimal performance. Carbohydrates are essential for recovery and performance in endurance sports. The amount of carbohydrates needed can be higher than commonly recommended guidelines. Context is crucial when determining carbohydrate intake for different ride intensities. Fat adaptation varies among cyclists based on training status and fitness level. Proper fueling strategies can prevent energy deficits and enhance training consistency. Coaching can help cyclists understand and implement effective fueling strategies. Awareness of carbohydrate needs can lead to better performance outcomes.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Substrate Utilization 03:01 Understanding the New TrainingPeaks Feature 06:05 Carbohydrate Needs for Cyclists 08:51 The Importance of Fueling During Rides 12:03 Fat Adaptation and Performance 15:02 Practical Applications of Carbohydrate Intake 17:50 Coaching and Support for Cyclists
Cam Nicholls (00:00.696) Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined by the RCA's head coach, Ryan Thomas. And today we're gonna be talking about something that's a little bit technical, something that's new in the TrainingPeak software, but when you break it down, actually, it's, well, it is technical. It actually applies to all recreational and amateur road cyclists. And there was something interesting.
that Ryan put together for our Friday Training Trend newsletter about substrate utilization and essentially the amount of carbohydrates we're utilizing during our rides and there was one in particular that caught my attention about how many carbs we actually use as a general blanket during a one hour zone two ride. actually really surprised me and I know Ryan's gonna go into that detail today and I'm sure it'll surprise many of you. But before we go into that
level of detail, Ryan, can you tell me what is substrate utilization and this new feature in TrainingPeaks, which for those of you who are unaware, TrainingPeaks is a big training software platform, it's a calendar system we use for our members at the RCA to basically facilitate all their training. So tell us a little bit about this new feature and substrate utilization, Ryan.
Yeah, it's a really, really cool new feature that TrainingPeaks have brought in based on a whole bunch of research done by a well-renowned researcher and coach, Inigo Semmelan. He looked at, I think it was around 250 athletes, did a whole bunch of testing with them, lactate testing and metabolic cart testing, seeing how much fat and carbohydrate they burn in a specific ride and at a specific level. So,
what the substrate utilization actually looks at is how much carb versus fat calories that you're burning in your ride. So it's based on a prediction. So it's not a hundred percent accurate. If you went into your own metabolic cart test, it would be more accurate. But it's based off a whole bunch of testing that gives you a pretty good estimate for how many carbohydrates you're burning throughout your ride.
Ryan Thomas (02:15.572) and how many carbohydrates predicted that you're gonna burn throughout that ride as well, which is the practical part for what we'll talk about in a minute. But very, very cool new feature that every single rider can use, and I think a lot of people will get a lot of value out of it, because majority of people that we see at the RCA aren't fueling their rides enough. And we can go through some specific examples, because it's actually more than you think you need.
Yeah, okay. So when you just drill in on this new feature and from a value perspective to people using Training Peaks, is it purely about them seeing how many they're burning and what they need to replace or is there more to it?
I think it's the accountability from a carb intake perspective. We know that carbs are your ultimate fuel and performance. If you're not having carbs before, during and after, you're missing out on a whole bunch of performance increases during that right end recovery and performance the following days. So that aspect, just making people aware that they actually need to take in a...
a lot of carbohydrate because most amateur or recreational cyclists do come into cycling and sugar is usually seen as like this bad thing that you shouldn't have sugar and it's in general life and if you're not an active person at 100 % you shouldn't be consuming a whole lot of simple sugar but as an endurance athlete or a high performance high intensity athlete you definitely need the carbohydrates and the sugar to be able to perform at a high level.
And I think this new feature gives people that accountability and specificity for what they should be doing.
Cam Nicholls (04:03.214) Yeah, okay. So can you just give us a little breakdown then of what sort of catching some of our members off guard a little bit? Because obviously they've, know, lot of them have been speaking with, you know, coaches over the years from, you know, within our coaching group or within, you know, other coaching groups or some of them have watched a lot of YouTube content. Some of them have watched our very own Steph Cronin, you know, talk about, you know, how many carbs per hour they should at least be aiming for initially when they start.
leaning into the whole carb strategy for training world, know, starting with 30 grams an hour and then working towards 60 and then maybe going towards 90. So that kind of seems to be what are in people's heads. And then of course, you know, getting to, you know, what the pro level is getting to 125, 150 ridiculous. you know, knowing all that as as you know, know, evidence that we sort of see in the research and what we hear from sports dieticians, is that what is, you know,
the data showing us with this new feature in Training Peaks or is it catching some people off guard?
I think it's a slightly more than what the generalized data is, but there's a lot of context to this. just if we look at it from a pure data perspective and look at how many carbohydrate calories you burn in a ride and then how much you intake to keep up with that demand, it's a lot higher than what we see in the 30 or 60 grams of carbs an hour, for example. But the context makes a big difference here. And I think this is what's
A lot of people are going to be seeing this new feature and doing the calculations and like getting overwhelmed with it. And like you said, at the start of this, a one hour zone to ride, I'll go in that example right now because it's quite relevant. A one hour zone to ride for someone with the 250 watt threshold, roughly, which is a pretty normal for a recreational rider. You're looking at around 750 calories burnt.
Ryan Thomas (06:08.418) carb calories burnt throughout that ride. So that's the cost on the body. There's a difference between kilojoules and calories. So this is where it becomes a bit technical. We're looking at calories, which is the cost on the body to produce the kilojoules, which is the mechanical work that the muscles actually do, which is measured in power. So the calories for that, 750 calories, what we need to do from that. So if you're looking at your own training peaks and you're
see 750 carb calories burnt for this ride or predicted for this ride. How do you actually figure out what you need to take in? And I'm taking this from the people at Training Peaks because they're the ones who created it and recommendation is that you need to intake roughly 50 % of the carbohydrate usage for that ride to maintain the physical output. So you don't just...
take 50 % of 750 calories because one carbohydrate, one gram of carbohydrate equals four calories. So we need to work backwards a little bit here. So what we need to do is that 750, you need to divide it by four to get the grams of carbohydrates that you're burning for that ride, which is around 180. And then you divide it by two, which you need to get 50 % of that number to maintain the physical output.
You can just divide it by eight is a quick way around that. But for a one hour zone two ride, average power of 160 watts, roughly 170 watts. Your body, the cost on your body is around 95 grams of carbohydrates. So that means that your body is using 95 grams of carbohydrates that you've taken in, whether it's before or during that ride to produce
a specific amount of mechanical work or power. Now that one hour, so the context behind that is you don't need to take in 95 grams of carbohydrates in that one hour ride. the reason for that and the recommendations for nutrition intake are based off duration and intensity. So you'll hear from Steph and you'll hear from other nutritionists and other
Ryan Thomas (08:26.862) content online that over an hour and a half, you should be taking in more over three hours, you should be taking in a lot more. So, and the reason for that is we have a pretty high amount of calories and kilojoules in glycogen stores within our body to be able to produce that work without, with a limited cost for a one hour zone two ride. So you have 1500 to 2000 kilojoules of energy within your body to be able to.
produce work. So essentially that's quite a big ride. If you're looking at your own training peaks and you're thinking about how many kilojoules does it actually, how long does it take to burn that amount of kilojoules worth of energy or work, it's actually quite a long time. And probably for someone putting out 300 watts or two hours, it's probably a two hour ride for 2000 kilojoules. But if you're putting out 150, it's probably three hours to...
that would mean you are completely empty of stores if you didn't take any carbohydrates in. So the context here is really important. We don't expect you to be able to take in 94 grams of carbohydrates in a one hour session because you would have carbohydrates before and after that session to replace the 95 grams. And it's quite easy to replace 95 grams of carbohydrates from that ride as opposed to doing a three hour ride where your burns made it.
300, 350 grams of carbohydrates. So it's very difficult to get in your pre-ride meal. And during, you need to make sure you're getting a lot of that within there to be able to recover quickly and go again the next day.
Hmm interesting so the you know the barometer ride that I like to do when I'm training for events is the two-hour ride down the coast base focus sort of zone two I don't need anything because I feel like you know It's just one of the like I'm eating so much on my other rides when I'm training for an event I like to have rides where I'm not eating and I feel like I can get through that ride Without you know an effect on performance because it's not really a performance focus ride at zone two
Cam Nicholls (10:36.622) And you know provided I have a good meal afterwards, I feel everything's okay, so I can still keep doing that zone to ride faster. That's okay
Ryan Thomas (10:48.946) Yes, it really depends on what you've got the day before and the day after and what you're trying to get out of that ride from a physiological benefit. So for example, just quickly I just pulled up a two hour zone two ride of yours and you're burning your mechanical work for a two hour zone two ride at 180 watts, 200 watts for example is 1300 kilojoules worth of mechanical work.
that you're burning throughout that ride. the cost, the carbohydrate cost on your body for that ride is probably gonna be around the same, around 1300, 1200 maybe, because there'll be a bit of fat contribution in there as well. So divide that by four, you're getting 300 and then half of that 150. So 150 grams of carbs for that ride is what the cost is on your body. So what you should be trying to replace.
It's actually 300 because that's the amount you use, but you would need to replace 50 during that ride essentially. So if you're doing that in a fasted state and not feeling during, you need to be making up for it elsewhere to maintain your energy balance. And theoretically, if you don't do before and during, then you're in an energy deficit for the rest of the day and it just becomes a cycle. if you're, yeah, there's a cost and a benefit and there is
Some people are really big on their faster drives and higher fat contribution and high fat burning on those rides. But I think we need to remember, and this is why this is gonna raise a lot of flags. This new feature is we're actually, you're still burning a really high amount of carbohydrate even in a zone two ride. And I think people think that that's just like you're burning fat and then you switch to burning carbohydrates. There's no switch. It's not an on-off switch. You're burning a
high percentage of both throughout every intensity, just, the percentage changes as you increase the power. So the carbohydrate, you're using a lot of carbs still in a zone two, right? Is the takeaway there.
Cam Nicholls (12:56.042) I also believe that the percentage changes as you get fitter. that two hours on the road down the coast that I talk about, I did that recently and I'm not fit at the moment. And I actually started to bonk because I hadn't had any fuel. I just had water in the water bottles. And I was starting to bonk. I said to the person I was riding with about an hour and 40 deep, was like, I think I need to stop and get like a Snickers bar or something like that. Whereas, like four or five months ago when I was training for an event, I would have
eaten that two hour ride for breakfast, pardon the pun, without having anything and being fine. So clearly the training, know, when you're particularly when doing a lot of zone two work, you do become better fat adapted. So that the switch, while it's not a switch, it does alter as you get fitter.
100 % yeah and that the fat utilization and where your fat max sits and the highest percentage of fat utilization across your power curve where that actually sits for each individual is very different based on training status physiology and that's why the in training peaks if you're looking at this feature another important point is you need to make sure that you have the right settings in your account to make sure to change the carb versus fat
in contribution because the more experienced athlete you are say, Tour de France level athletes, their Fat Max is going to be much further along with their power curve, relatively to a recreational athlete who's just starting. So like you said, Tour de France athletes could go on ride two, three hours without any carbohydrates at a really low level and be absolutely fine. But someone who has a really low Fat Max relatively to their threshold. So this is all relative to
the individual's threshold. The difference there is that today, for example, everyone's seen all that podcast where he's like 320, 340 Watts is his zone two or his fat max. That's very, very close to his threshold. And it's very high up his power curve because that's their ability because they train five, six hours zone two rides and they get really fat adapted and their ability to use fat as a fuel is really good. Whereas when you're only training an hour, hour and a half.
Ryan Thomas (15:12.39) that fat utilization is very different and relatively to your threshold. that's, yeah, it's really important that you know what sort of level athlete and you adapt that in your settings.
Hmm, but I think it's an eye-opener. The reason why it was an eye-opener for me, and I know a lot of RCA members responded to that newsletter with similar thoughts, is that, you know, like we could be talking about intensity rides here versus zone two rides, but everyone's intensity ride looks quite different. Everyone's bunch ride looks quite different. The way everyone does threshold training can be quite different, whereas everyone's zone two, yeah, the actual zone two number.
might be quite different depending on the person's fitness level, but they're trying to target zone two and stay there for the entire ride. So it's a good workout to look at because everyone's, or most people are doing that sport workout specifically, but then recognize that, okay, when I am going into the world of intensity and I'm trying to perform and I'm trying to operate at my peak, knowing that
you know, unlike a car, you know, we can't perform optimally on three quarters of a tank or half a tank of fuel. You know, there's been research done on this, you know. If you're in a car and you've got like literally my car right now, it's got 40 kilometres left of fuel to go. I really need to go fill it up. But if I hit the, you know, put the pedal to the metal, like out the front here in Sunshine Beach, which I'm not gonna do, it's gonna take off the same way it would as if it was full. But.
know, physically, you know, our bodies don't operate like that. So we need to, particularly when we're trying to operate, you know, at intensity, get the most out of our high intensity interval training sessions, and then of course on event day, we need to try and stay towards the top of our capacity as much as we possibly can during those sessions so we can work in an optimal state. So knowing that, and then considering that we're potentially losing 100 grams of carbs per hour,
Cam Nicholls (17:19.008) in a simple one hour zone two ride, it's like, well, our bodies are really using a lot of carbs when we're cycling, particularly at intensity. and knowing that we wanna try and keep it as optimal, the tank as high as possible during these sessions, for me it was like, okay, so now I reflect on the recent training that I was doing for an event and I was targeting 125 grams per hour.
You know, it seems extreme and it felt extreme and you know, it took a while to get to with the gut training but in actual fact, like, I'm still not getting anywhere near what I'm burning.
Yeah, I just started training for an event in 12 weeks time and I'm looking at it myself and it's actually made me the last two weeks since they updated it, it's made me consume more carbs. Like it's actually having an impact on myself and I knew how many carbs I needed to intake, but seeing the numbers there versus actually like just having a thing in the back of your mind saying, oh, I should have 90 or I should have hundred grams an hour today.
when I look at the session post or look at it before and it's like, I actually need to take in a whole lot of carbohydrates today. Like I'll actually plan out and I'll prepare to have a hundred grams of carbs an hour because I know that that's what I need for a three hour ride. If it's an hour, hour and a half, then not too, the impact is less. The cost on your body is less, but anything over that hour and a half period, if you're not hitting close to what you're burning, then I think you're going to be falling down a lot in.
in terms of your ability to progress and stay consistent with your high intensity training. I think that's the big difference here is that, yeah, okay, if you under feel one or two times during the week and you may not think it has a big impact or if you go and do that two hour ride fasted
Thu, 07 Aug 2025 - 20min - 57 - The BEST Science Backed Short Intensity Cycling Workout (to maintain cycling fitness)
Is this cycling podcast about training and improving your performance, including FTP, V02 Max, endurance and sprint repeatability, we discuss This study published in 2020 looking at what performance outcomes changed - over a 3 week transition period - for elite cyclists when they reduced their training load by ~60%.The control group only performed low intensity training. The other group (sprint group) performed low intensity training as well as one session per week of 3 × 30 second maximal sprints, interspersed by 4-min of active recovery (100 W), with 15 minutes at zone 2 between sets. The sprint group had a 8% larger improvement in their 30 second sprint and maintained their 20min all out FTP effort over that 3 week period. Whereas the control group lost 3% of performance on their 20min all out effort. These results are quite surprising given they were only doing one sprint session per week. This is solid evidence to suggest that doing all-out efforts should maintain your fitness when volume is reduced significantly for short periods (1-3 weeks).
Full transcript:
Cameron Nicholls (00:00):Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined again by the RCAs data nerd Ben Treble, and today we're going to talk about a little bit of science that we've recently leveraged in some RCA content that I have personally taken on board myself, and I've been using it anecdotally over the past, I'd say six to eight weeks with great success. And I wanted to get Ben's perspective, so before Ben gives us his perspective, give you the context first, Ben. So we recently had an RCA member. He posed a question in our community forum and the question was, I've been training for this audax event and for those of you who aren't familiar with Audax rides, they're big juicy, hairy rides normally over five days, one week, two weeks. I think this one was over 10 days and it was like two or 300 kilometers a day and he'd been doing a lot of endurance training and all of a sudden he's got a 10 day cruise.
(01:05) He's on a cruise and this is about two weeks before his actual event. So the timing wise, it didn't work out so well. So it's like how do I maintain my fitness while I'm on this cruise ship for 10 days and I only have access to a gym bike? So some coaches got involved in this paper, which we're going to talk about today, was presented and really it's about doing maximal efforts with decent recovery and you don't need to do long sessions because obviously being on a cruise ship and having access to a gym bike, I actually think this member, I'm pretty sure he took a photo of the gym bike when he was on the cruise. It wasn't an attractive looking bike, so you don't want to really spend a lot of time on these things, like 30 to 40 minutes max. And he was doing this session and I was thinking to myself, oh, we sent this out in a newsletter as well and we got a lot of responses back from our community, a wider community on this particular paper.
(02:06) And I was thinking to myself, well actually this is it relevant to me now as well because I'm not doing a lot of training. Life's gotten in the way. I've gone from doing 10 to 12 hours a week to maybe six hours a week and I get on the trainer in the morning, I'm getting up a little bit later, it's winter, I've got to get the kids ready for school. I probably only got 30, 40 minutes. So I started to implement this session. So what is this session? Do a warmup for 10 minutes and then I'm doing, and there's variations of it, right? It doesn't specifically have to be this, whatever works for you, but you basically want to do an all out effort for 30 seconds. So I'm a lazy at the moment with my training and everything, so I'm just doing it in er mode, Ben, and I know this is a no-no, but I'm just going from warming up, do a few little ramps, and then at the 15 minute mark, I start my first 30 seconds at 520 watts and I literally just tap it up in ER mode from 200 watts to 520 and I write at 520 watts for 30 seconds.
(03:11) And that's a struggle. I'm just getting there with form, maintaining my form, and then I come back for the next four and a half minutes to 200 watts and then recover and then I'll do it again back up to five 20 watts for 30 seconds, recover for four and a half minutes. And depending on how much time I have in the morning, this is over the last six to eight weeks, I've been doing that four times, maybe five times. I got up to six times the other , and what's been really interesting for me, because around that I've also been doing bit of zone two training, a little bit of sweet spot stuff, but not much. Haven't even been doing the bun ride. Went out and did the bun ride the other day, rolling turns, feeling good, feeling strong. That's not normal. When I've been doing six hours a week, we've been talking about this VO two Mac session recently, the 30 fifteens, I thought I'd try it.
(04:06) I did three sets of nine reps at 420 , and I was doing it for a bit of content on our YouTube channel. I thought, I'm not going to get through this. Got through it all. Oh, that's surprising as well. And I just feeling surprisingly quite fit considering I'm only doing six hours of training per week, so I'm like, oh, hang on a sec. This session here, doing a maximal effort essentially for 30 seconds and then recovering and doing it again without spending a lot of time on volume. , it's in the ; it's, Obviously,and I've now had a great anecdotal experience with it , and I'm doing it once a week. I should probably preface I'm not doing it multiple times a week, just once a week for the last six to eight weeks. So what do you make of all that ramble?
Ben Trebel (04:57):I'm a big fan. I would classify this as sprint interval training. As you said, there's a lot of variance of it. We have repeated sprint interval training where you would do short sprints with very short recovery between, and you do sets of them with longer recovery. And then you have just what you've done, which I would call this long sprint interval training. And there's different versions of that. I'm a big fan of it. I like to couple it within actually your zone two rides. One because it keeps them interesting, and two, I think it gives you a lot of extra stimulus without impacting the aerobic component of the session too much. There are an amazing maintenance session. There's a lot of emerging research on it. I think it's pretty underrated. I don't see too many people on Strava doing sprint interval training because I think they assume it's only if you want to be a sprinter, but the sprinting itself, particularly if it's like 30 seconds, it's working a lot of the energy systems to get there.
(06:04) You're using the aerobic system a lot even though it's short, you're using the anaerobic system, it's kicking in because the sprint is long enough and of course you're jumping through the phosphate system to start with to get there, and your neuromuscular system is getting a lot of stimulus from those sprints. So it's like a very good bang for buck session that engages a lot of systems in a very short period of time. We do it a number of times in the session. I think it's very good at activating a lot of the metabolic pathways, a lot of the enzyme reactions that we need to maintain our capacities.
Cameron Nicholls (06:46):Interesting. And it's not that, the thing I like about it as well from a practical standpoint is during, I would call this an off season for me, I'm just maintaining my fitness. I'm getting on the bike just for fitness, something to do. And normally when I'm doing this, I would do mainly zone two because it's easy and I might do a bit of your sweet spot threshold stuff and I kind of tend to stay away from the upper end stuff because I can't be bothered. It's like, oh, do I want to do a Tabata or a 30 fifteens or I'm just like, no, it's not interested. I don't want to do a swiff race. I might go do the local group ride and sit in a bit more, but I can't really get the mental capacity to go do these VO two style sessions. Whereas this, even though the 30 seconds is quite challenging, once you 15, 20 seconds in, once you're 15, 20 seconds in, you've only got 10 seconds to go and then you've got a four and a half minute recovery.
(07:55) So I find mentally they're kind of easy to do, which I think makes it really practical. Practical in an off season phase where people are looking to, and it doesn't have to be an off season phase. It could be a period in your training where you've got with this member, they're on a cruise for 10 days and they want to maintain their fitness. I think it's probably needs to be prefaced though. And I think you alluded to this, that if you hadn't done much training, cycling training before or you don't have much of a base, then this type of training, you're probably not going to yield the greatest benefits. But if the base foundation is there, it's a really good way to activate those systems that you described and maintain some top end fitness without really having to do anything too extreme.
Ben Trebel (08:45):Yeah, there was a paper, I can't remember what year it was from. It was fairly recent that it looked at sprint interval training impact on VO2 max and they managed to get better outcomes improvements on VO2 max than a classic sort of four, five minute steady state intervals at mean maximal power. So I think that was a very interesting study that just some sprint training improved VO2 max better than say a classic four - five minute, is a single study. So I don't want to take it too far out of context, but just anecdotally, you start to see this and you go, ah, there's some very interesting benefits to sprint interval training. There was a cool study from, I've got to get the name right, he's a French researcher in...
Cameron Nicholls (09:37):That's all right. We can link it in the description.
Ben Trebel (09:39):Just so you don't stuff it up. I'll link a study on hypoxic training with just endurance, say like your zone two only sort of training versus sprint interval training. And they ended up with the same sort of VO2 max improvements or management. A lot of these metrics stayed the same. There was no scientific difference up or down, but the difference they found was in the fatigue resistance in their ability to repeat sprints. So the tests that they did comparing the two groups was you do a sprint and then you had to try and repeat it as many times as you could within the same power quality and how many repeats could you do? And the group that had done the sprint interval training could get through 30% more sprints than the other group. Interesting. And this was in a short
Cameron Nicholls (10:34):Timeframe that aligns to my experience at the bunch where in previous years when I've been in this off season phase and I've just been doing my own tour and a bit of sweet spot stuff, I could get involved in the terms, but I would fatigue out pretty quickly. It wasn't so much my cardio system, it was my muscular system would start fatiguing, so I would do less turns. Whereas on this particular bunch ride the other day, I stayed in the turns pretty much the whole time. Sorry, that was my dog there in the background if you heard that interesting animal sound. And I was like, even though I've only been doing four or five of these 32nd efforts on the trainer once a week, I was able to do, I don't know how many turns, I did like 30, somewhere between 15 to 30 at high power output, not at the five 20 watt mark, which is what I'm doing my 32nd efforts for this particular session, but they're like 4, 4 50 watt turns and able to do 15 to 30 of these when I've been doing very little training. It was very telling. Which kind of aligns to the research that you mentioned there. I think one thing that people probably need to keep in mind if they're going to implement this is the recovery is pretty important is that it's not that you just go out there and, you do repeated sprint efforts on top of each other. Why do you need a decent recovery?
Ben Trebel (12:11):Well, as I said, there's repeated sprint interval training, which is where you specifically have short recovery, which you're aiming for a different outcome to what we're kind of talking about, which would just be sprint interval training. And the recovery time varies greatly between rider, like how well trained you are. I think five minutes is definitely on the shorter side, like the sessions I typically would prescribe for sprint interval training. Mind you, this is a longer session with a higher power, slightly shorter sprint. So 22nd sprint, I would be looking at 10 to 20 minute rest intervals, but on a two or three hour ride. So you're doing a lot more sprints and the intensity is essentially the first one you do is maximal do a 20 minute max sprint and then try repeat it every time.
Cameron Nicholls (12:58):20 minute max sprint.
Ben Trebel (13:00):Sorry, 20 seconds.
Cameron Nicholls (13:02):I was going to say 22nd max sprint. I'll be impressed. Yeah, I would
Ben Trebel (13:09):Be too.
Cameron Nicholls (13:11):Yeah. So I think that's the key there. Obviously there's variations in this type of training, but yeah, for me, what's practical right now is if you've got 40 minutes, if I was to do a 10 minute recovery, which probably has some merits, I'll probably be more effective. I might be able to do five 50 watts instead of five 20 or something like that for the 30 seconds. But you're still hitting that anaerobic state and tapping through those different systems, as you said in that 30 seconds. So you're activating what's required.
Ben Trebel (13:46):Yeah, you're getting that. It's a neuromuscular activation, and something you don't get from some of the old classic interval types is the intensity is not hard enough to recruit all the muscle fibers and motor units. And when we do these, when we say neuromuscular, it's your body's forced to push and activate the neural pathways to then go and activate the motor units, which then twitch the fibers. So if we just do very low zone one and two work, very likely you're only engaging your type one muscle fibers. Your type twos are just getting lazy, and if we don't use them, we kind of lose them. So doing your 40 minutes at sort of a low zone two with some big sprints thrown in, it kind just engages the full body system, which is why I think it's so good at maintenance work and it's pretty easy and sort of less demanding to handle.
Cameron Nicholls (14:42):Absolutely. And it's in the research, as you've mentioned, some papers and this specific paper that we were using internally at the RCA. We'll link that in the description as well for everyone to have a look. So yeah, if you're out there and you've got limited training time for a period within your block or whether you're in an off season phase, but you want to maintain some decent fitness, this is definitely something to consider. It's in the research and I put my hand up and I vouch for it now myself. So thanks for your time, Ben, and if anyone's out there listening and you want some support with your training, don't forget the RCA offers coaching services where you can also work with Coach Ben who I'm speaking to right now, or one of our other coaches. Just go to www.roadcyclingacademy.com and check out our one-to-one coaching page. We'll catch you in the next podcast.
For more information from the Road Cycling Academy - (RCA), including blogs from our renowned road cycling coaches, head to our website.
Wed, 16 Jul 2025 - 15min - 56 - How to Boost Your FTP (I ask Ben the simple question we all want answered)
In this podcast, the RCA's resident data nerd Ben Treble discusses ways you can boost your FTP (Functional Threshold Power), using specific workouts and progressing those workouts over time. Notably, specific threshold based intervals sessions you can progress over time. We focus on the 20min effort in this discussion, as that is the most commonly referred to FTP protocol.
Full Transcript:
Cameron Nichols (00:00):Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I'm joined again by the RCAs data nerd Ben Treble. And Ben, I'm just going to ask you a really simplified question today. Probably one that doesn't really have much scientific research to back it up as a standalone question, but it's probably the biggest question we get from recreational and amateur road cyclists that come on board at the RCA. How do I boost my FTP? What do I need to do? What does the sign say?
Ben Treble (00:35):Why do you want boost your FTP?
Cameron Nichols (00:37):Because it sounds good. It's what the gym bro is talking about, how much they bench in cycling. We talk about how big our FTP is, so I want to go to my local group ride and tell everyone I've got a FTP of over 300 watts and of course in doing that, I should subsequently be stronger on the bike because if I have a bigger FTP, it increases everything else. I should be able to climb better because normally you're climbing around the FTP mark, it's going to help everything Ben. Alright, everything life is going to be better with a bigger FTP.
Ben Treble (01:14):Sounds great. Where do I get one?
Cameron Nichols (01:18):Well you tell me. You are the one, you are the man that knows all the science literature. So what have you got for
Ben Treble (01:24):Me? If you come to me?
Cameron Nichols (01:24):Is there a paper? Is there a paper?
Ben Treble (01:26):It's a question I get. I get this all the time. No, the answer is it's very difficult. I didn't do a deep dive. Let's be fair. There could be papers, but I did do some research on this in the journals and there's very little on purely comparing say different workouts like HIIT workout versus endurance protocols. What improved FTP the most? Partly because the scientific community will probably put their hand up quickly and say FTP, how did you test it and was it a reliable test in the first place? The answer is often no. So then they move on and they measure with other metrics and do other research. Interesting. Not the answer that the everyday cyclist wants to hear.
Cameron Nichols (02:18):This is a short podcast. Alright, thanks everyone for listening. Joking. Yeah. Okay, well then give me what you see anecdotally. So you've got a lot of recreational and amateurs that come to you and this is a goal of theirs and if you scratch the surface, normally the underlying goal is, well look, I've got this mate in the local group ride and he's kind of given me the shits and I want to beat him up the local climb. Or it's actually next year I'm targeting an event and I want to do well. But initially the focus is on FTP. So how would you go about as a general blanket
Ben Treble (03:09):I'll play if someone comes to me and says, I want to improve my FTP and I say that's it. You just want to try and improve the test result. My first question is what tests are you doing? Let's just assume there's two main ones being like a 20 minute FT P test and the RAMP test. Probably the two most common FTP tests because you can kind of, depending on what type of athlete they are, I'm not going to say you can game the test, but you can design the training to target a better result out of that test, which will give you a higher FTP number as a result.
Cameron Nichols (03:46):You can definitely game the test a hundred percent. Let's talk about it. Let's game the test.
Ben Treble (03:51):If you are a more anaerobic sort of dominant athlete, like you're better at sprinting high intensity stuff naturally a bit more muscular, the ramp test is already going to be like a favored test protocol. If you are more aerobic and you're better at sort of steady efforts, the 20 minute test will give you a better outcome. So that's
Cameron Nichols (04:13):Not on the indoor trainer. Not on the indoor trainer. Don't do the 20 minute test on the indoor trainer
Ben Treble (04:18):Only if you have a lot of cooling and yes, maybe less, but yeah, the first one is let's work out which test protocol is better for you and then we can start to look at what efforts are going to help you improve that result.
Cameron Nichols (04:32):Okay, so I'm going to give you more example cam. Yeah, I'm going to give you because I reckon a lot of recreational and amateurs have done the ramp test and the ramp test definitely has merits external to the genetic capabilities that somebody might have that favors more anaerobic muscular strength on the trainer to step up a ramp. But in terms of the practicality, because a lot of recreational and amateurs that want to know what their FTP is to go out and do a 20 minute sustained effort, which is probably the more the better way of getting your FTP, they don't know how to do that test. You would've seen this a hundred times where they've gone out of the blocks way too hard and they die towards the end the last five minutes, they're basically in a recovery spin because they're so smashed from the first 10 minutes where actual fact you should be almost the other way.
(05:26) You should be starting below and finishing strong, but you would never know how to do that until you've done it a few times. But I think it comes back to the fact that a lot of people want to boost their FTP, but they never even ride at FTP. They're doing local bunch rides or group rides where it's very on off. They're in zone two or then they're in zone four or five, so they race up the hill, then they're coasting down the other side and zone. Or they might be just doing random swift iwt racing is probably the only one where you actually are operating around tempo, sweet spot, even a bit of threshold consistently in a sustained manner. But I think a lot of on-road riding with mates group rides and just people that go out and ride generally they sort tend to jump between zones one and two and then go straight up to zones five and six and that threshold area really gets missed. So that actually don't spend a lot of time there, even though inadvertently by them saying, Hey, I want to increase my FTP. It's like, are you actually spending any time there? So I think that would be a good one if we just drill in on that one. If I said, okay Ben, I want to improve my 20 minute, what do you got for me?
Ben Treble (06:42):Oh, the 20 minute not the ran.
Cameron Nichols (06:44):Yeah,
Ben Treble (06:45):Not
Cameron Nichols (06:45):The ramp. There you. Yeah, the 20 minute I was
Ben Treble (06:46):Prepared for the ramp. That's okay.
Cameron Nichols (06:48):That's for a clearly one.
Ben Treble (06:49):Let's go. Yeah, I'm okay with that. Yeah. Well the first thing I would do is let's assume it's a sort of amateur level rider. They're maybe riding three, four times a week. I would still leave one long social ride on the weekend and then just use the midweek rides as two focused interval rides. One I would do over unders. So this is normally around, yeah, it's normally the over is 105% a threshold and then the under is 95% and you can do it in different ways, but usually I might do say one minute over, one minute under and you might do a set of eight minutes or 10 minutes, you just progressively and you might do two sets first and you slowly build up. So you might end up doing three sets and I'm just going to do this for say two blocks. That's the first key session.
(07:47) And the second key session would be learning to ride the time trial. So doing practicing, building them up, so probably doing two by 10 minutes at slightly above threshold and then getting them two by 15 minutes and eventually getting them to do 20 minute efforts and learning what that feels like riding slightly above threshold for 20 minutes straight at a steady state and preparing them for that test. So there would be the two sessions that just you progress them through those two, you've got the lactate shuttling session and then you've got the time trial above threshold session and then retest after whatever you say you want for eight
Cameron Nichols (08:27):Weeks. And so let's just drill into this a little bit more. So you said two blocks, what do you mean by a block? So you're talking about eight weeks? About eight,
Ben Treble (08:41):Yeah, let's go with eight weeks. I would do three weeks of progression. So I like to structure my, let's call them blocks. Typically three weeks on one week easy and the way I do the first three weeks, the first week I call a try week. So we try the workouts for the first time and get a feel was it the right, did we get the right number of intervals and sets, was it achievable or not? How hard was it based on that? The second week is the practice week, so it's ideally the same workouts, they should feel a bit easier. We get some acute response and the third week is a push week, so we increase either the number of intervals or the number of sets and then the third week is an easy week, so it's normally the same as the first week or with a little bit reduced volume and then we go again in the next block, but it'll be an increased progression.
Cameron Nichols (09:36):Okay. The overruns, let's talk about what the first session might look like in the first block and then what the final session would look like in the second block if we're progressing so people can get a good feel of where you would start and where you would finish with the over unders.
Ben Treble (10:01):Yeah, I would probably attempt to start with two sets with eight minute block. So you would do four, one minute over four, one minute unders, that's an eight minute block and then you would do roughly five minutes recovery at who knows, 50% threshold and then you go again for a second block. So that's probably the first place I would start.
Cameron Nichols (10:30):Okay, and where would you be working towards?
Ben Treble (10:34):Yeah, I'd probably try to get to a point where you could do 12 minutes,
Cameron Nichols (10:39):So
Ben Treble (10:40):Say six minutes over six minutes under through one set and three sets probably in an eight week period.
Cameron Nichols (10:47):Yep. Okay, so that's the unders. Now the sustained time trial efforts, this is the one that I'm interested to dig a little bit into here because something that you said got my attention, you're working towards 20 minutes over threshold if you can do 20 minutes over threshold, isn't that an FTP test? Isn't that achieving more than what you would want because you're kind of like
Ben Treble (11:21):Your F, but you should be able to test then even better when you go into a test. I mean if let's say your FT P is 300 watts
Cameron Nichols (11:32):When you get started, so I've just come in and I'm just starting this eight week block and my FTP is 300 watts and I want to get it to three 50.
Ben Treble (11:42):If you are not used to time trialing, whilst it should be achievable doing say three 20 for 20 minutes, it probably would be very challenging.
(11:52) Some might struggle, some might be able to pull it off. So you've got to work out that starting point, which is why I would often start with 10 minute intervals to get a gauge on doing two 10 minute intervals with a pretty short say like two minutes or three minutes between them to get a gauge. That would be my starting point. Let's understand are they good at doing 20 minute efforts, pacing them, what's the heart rate response by just splitting one hard 20 minute effort above threshold this way and that gives you an idea. If they can't get through that, then your starting point becomes a bit lower, right? You might have to do two 10 minutes below threshold with more recovery and progress from here to a point where you get them to doing 20 minute effort above threshold, getting ready for the test right at I think the training at the end of the day, you want the race or the test to be easier than the training.
Cameron Nichols (12:56):Yes. Would there be an example or a scenario where you would even, because a lot of people haven't done any sustained, even though I've done a ramp test in my FTPs 300 watts, it's like well they may not even be able to hold 300 watts for five minutes or even that. So is there a world in which you might even start the threshold sustained efforts less than 10 or you would always start at 10 and if they're struggling, just reduce the power?
Ben Treble (13:35):Yeah, you could go less. I think it probably depends a little bit on if they're outdoors, what climbs do they have available to them. If it's not easy to access a long climb that's 20 minutes, maybe they've got an eight minute climb, then maybe I'm going to drop it to eight minutes. So it's just like it's a practical component to that session. You really are not used to sort of long steady state efforts. You might have to go smaller I would hope nothing like six minutes probably. It's going to be hard and maybe you're not going to be that great at it the first few times, but people pretty quickly, they get these acute adjustments to them, but it requires repetition.
Cameron Nichols (14:25):And so where's your end state? So let's just say your start state 6, 8, 10 minutes, depending practically what you've got available in your area towards the end of this block, which is an eight week block, you're getting to a point where you're doing two times 20 minute threshold efforts. Is that what you said?
Ben Treble (14:46):Yeah, in an eight week block, I think it's cheaper.
Cameron Nichols (14:51):So tell me what that session looks like. The two times 20 minutes. Because if your FTP is 300 watts at the start, obviously you're aiming for three 50. This is the example. What are you aiming for? Two times 20 is a pretty solid workout and obviously you've got to repeat it. So you do it once and then you've got to repeat it again. So are you really aiming for above threshold? Is that actually doable?
Ben Treble (15:20):For repeated twenties I would do them at threshold.
Cameron Nichols (15:23):At threshold. At
Ben Treble (15:24):Threshold I wouldn't be going above threshold for the repeat twenties, but if we're doing, say in the start we're doing two by 10 at a certain point I would want to look at going above not a lot, like 105%.
Cameron Nichols (15:37):Yeah. Okay. And how would you coach that to somebody that's never done these sustained efforts before? The example is I want you to go at 105% of your FTP for these two times 10 minute efforts with a five minute recovery in between. Are they at the start of the 10 minute effort? Are they doing 105% out of the block or are they building towards it? How would you normally coach?
Ben Treble (16:08):There's a good warmup and then you just try and keep it as steady as possible for the training?
Cameron Nichols (16:16):For the training, yeah, so if you saw some, I'm going to throw some examples. I know this is the one, the overruns isn't so bad. I mean people will still fail in an over unders, but it's a bit more easy to reflect on that one and go, alright, I struggled to get through those eight repetitions, I got to seven or I got to six, so I'm going to reduce the over and the under power by 5% for my next one so I can get through it. I don't want to injure myself, but the sustained efforts can be quite a funky one because people haven't, particularly for those who haven't done it before, it's like, well how do I start my effort? How do I finish my effort? What if I'm doing these 10 minute efforts as the example at five minutes in, I start at 1 0 5 and I start dropping off and I end up at 90% of my FTP?
Ben Treble (17:12):Yeah, I have a different take to you on this one you said at the start. Okay, good. You think it was better to go easier at the start and then ramp it up? I disagree with this approach. If it's purely you have to get to 20 minutes. To me there's a high likelihood if you go too easy say in the first half and you're like, okay, there's more in the tank, I'm going to push that you could get to the end and have reserve left in the tank that you didn't really go all out and this 20 minute test, I want you to get to the end of it and fall off the bike in a safe way. It's a maximal test. There should be nothing left in the tank in a 20 minute time trial like this. And you have to also train for that. That's part of doing the two times 20, right? It's building the tolerance and getting used to that pushing, which a lot of people haven't done necessarily before, but I would prefer somebody go out the gate slightly harder and even if the power drops a bit towards the end, you're getting everything out.
(18:31) Interesting. That's my take.
Cameron Nichols (18:34):Obviously
Ben Treble (18:35):If you're going out too hard and then it's dropping a lot at the end because you went way too high above your threshold, your lactate builds up, you get the hydrogen S and then you completely park it four minutes early. To me it's a failed and we're going to retest.
Cameron Nichols (18:53):Okay.
Ben Treble (18:55):Yeah.
Cameron Nichols (18:55):Alright, well that's good. I mean there's a couple of different perspectives for you. I think I take that feedback on board and I think it can go either way in an actual 20 minute test because done a 20 minute test a lot of times and I've done the proper FDP test as well a number of times, which includes the all out five minute effort before the 20 minute effort. And that's not a nice test, that's why I don't think people do it, even though that's the way you should do a proper FTP test. And that is you do a VO two max fatiguing effort for five minutes upfront after a good warmup. Then you have, is it a five or a 10 minute recovery? I think it's somewhere between there and then you go do the 20 minute effort and I'm of the ilk that I'll work my way into it and then I'll really the last couple of minutes rinse myself out to a point where I almost feel sick and I get to the end of that test.
(19:54) I'm like, oh, if I could have kept going for another 10, 15 seconds here, which I probably could have, does that mean that I've not really given it everything in that 20 minutes but then I've gone the other way in the past where I'm fatiguing so bad at the end of the 20 minutes I'm like I've just really just ruined the test because I've just so fatigued at the end. The power drop-offs been significant. So it's such a fine balance and I think it really depends on the person and this is why obviously we're ultimately talking about this, it's actually the pacing effect. There's a real art to it and everyone's different and that's why I'm so pleased that you mentioned that as one of your key workouts because if that's what you're trying to achieve with an FTP increase and I think look, I there's a lot more merit in training this way versus training for a ramp test because how many times do you go out in the real world and you get benefits out of training for a ramp test? Don't get me wrong, but it's not really specific unless you're doing a ramp test challenge with your mates, but what are you more likely to do? You're more likely to do a climb competing with your mate or you're more likely to half wheel your mate side by side. What do you need for that? You need good sustained threshold power. So this scenario to me makes a lot more sense to train for if somebody's looking to boost their FTP and yet the training for the sustained efforts definitely makes a lot of sense. So
Ben Treble (21:34):Something I quite, this is a training thing, I do that just as an add-on where I would apply your approach. Where I go slightly easier or reserved at the start and l
Wed, 16 Jul 2025 - 23min - 55 - Heart Rate VS. Power for Cycling Training (Science based coach explains...)
Heart rate or power—what's the better tool for cycling training? In this episode, we break down the pros and cons of both, and why we believe power is the more practical, reliable metric for most cyclists. From pacing your efforts to tracking progress, we explain how power takes the guesswork out of training and why heart rate still has its place—just not as your primary guide.
Full Transcript:
Cam Nicholls (00:00):Welcome back to the RCA podcast, where today I'm joined again by the RCAs data nerd Ben Treble. And today we're going to be talking about zone two. Should you be following power or should you be following heart rate or should you be following both? And if you're following both, how does that actually work when one's staying in a straight line, the other one's going all over the place. So Ben, what's your answer?
Ben Treble (00:27):I prefer to use power both. I like definitely both, but I would start with power.
Cam Nicholls (00:34):Okay, that's a bit controversial, especially somebody who loves science and digs into all the papers. Why do you prefer power? Is that a scientific, I feel like this is maybe the first time you're going more on the practical side than the scientific side. Is that fair to say?
Ben Treble (00:51):Yeah.
Cam Nicholls (00:53):Oh, there you go. So why is that? Tell us why
Ben Treble (00:56):Heart rate for everyone listening, maybe there's some basics. Heart rate is an internal measure of our stress, which is fantastic because we have to listen to that and it's a metric we should always be accounting for and learning to listen to. Power is an external metrics, so in that respect, power is very reliable. Power doesn't discriminate when you are tired. Power doesn't discriminate when it's windy or cold. You are fatigued. 300 watts will always be 300 watts provided
Cam Nicholls (01:29):You calibrated.
Ben Treble (01:30):Yeah, provided you've got a good power meter .... The heart rate though, whilst it's a very good internal measure and scientifically you'd probably say a better measure for zone two in some respects because there is drift to account for especially in longer rides. My challenge with heart rate for zone two rides is simply it's harder to follow because your heart rate takes time to respond to the work. And how do you respond to that? If you suddenly see your heart rate has slowly crept up 15 beats throughout the ride, how much do you decrease your intensity to try and drop it? Because you most likely will drop it too much. Your heart rate takes time for this up and down, right? The response of it equally comparing workout to workout gets difficult because how do you account for all these other external stresses that your heart accounts for?
(02:34) Things like stress, caffeine, sleep, all these good things. So, I think heart rate is an amazing measure to keep an eye on for recovery rides. It's like the control check and you can do the same. You could use it as a control check for zone two rides, but I think it starts getting a bit complicated for many riders. So in that sense, I take a more practical approach with zone two, I would say you follow the power because it's easy and simple to understand to get it right, focus on trying to just hold a steady power outdoors. That's difficult enough as it is for most people. And once you get doing that, when you compare ride or ride, you can measure the heart rate drift and track the adaptation pretty well. But if you're just doing it on a heart rate, it starts to get very difficult to account for all the other things and see how you're responding.
Cam Nicholls (03:26):So what do you make of these guys that go out and ride? They do a three or four hour, zone two ride. They're trying to keep themselves in an aerobic state and as soon as they're following power initially, but they're looking at their heart rate, but as soon as their heart rate starts stepping into sort of that zone three, zone four threshold category, they'll reduce the power in order to keep their heart rate down. What do you think about that methodology?
Ben Treble (03:57):Yeah, I'm not opposed to it. I haven't had a need to over-implement it though myself mostly because it's particularly working with, say when you're working with recreational amateurs, as I said, you got to keep it pretty simple. Sometimes you're just bringing people into the concept of training by power to start with, let alone heart rate on top of that. It's getting a little bit complex pretty quick. That's pretty simple for me. I think it's a good idea. I like the idea of saying, okay, if you are zone two powers 160 watts after two hours and your heart rate should be one 30 and after two hours your heart rate's up to 1 45 at this point, you go, okay, that's a flag. Do we drop the power to try and keep it in the heart rate zone at the same time. It's probably a big question because how do you track your zone two heart rate in the first place? Like all good things, right? You can question zone two, heart rate. Was it based on max heart rate? Is it based on a threshold heart rate? How accurate is that? It's not correlated to the zone two. Heart rate is often not correlated to the zone two power anyway. I know coaches who use heart rate, I know coaches who use power, some use a combo.
Cam Nicholls (05:25):Yeah, I always, because I see these comments a lot on YouTube, right? Some, I've made a lot of zone two YouTube content in the past and there are a lot of people that tend to, it's almost like the rim versus disc debate. It's heart rate versus power and people seem to get quite fixated on keeping your heart rate within a certain range and not going, I guess ultimately what we're supposedly doing is not getting a big rise out of the lactate system, which keeps you in that aerobic state, which if you were technically really going to monitor, you would need to be taking what a lactate monitor out with you and pricking your skin and taking a blood sample. And when you're going, when you're essentially going down that rabbit hole, it's like who's writing these comments? Who's thinking this way? Is this person seriously trying to make a pro-level team or what are we trying to do?
(06:27) Because normally we're talking about when we're following power and heart rate for a one hour ride, to me it's just a no brainer. You follow power for a condition rider, two hours, you follow power maybe even three hours. But it's like, okay, there comes a point in time when if you're trying to stay in this aerobic state in inverted commas and you are doing a long ride and you're starting to stress and you're getting your rise out of your lactate system, your heart rate's going up. Once you get to that three or four hour mark, are you better off reducing the power and keeping your heart rate within that specific zone? But how often are you doing that ride? And if you do keep following power, is the adaptation going to be almost as similar as if you followed heart rate and therefore this whole conversation at a recreational and amateur level becomes null and void. You know what I mean?
Ben Treble (07:23):I've not seen, not saying there isn't, but I haven't seen any specific studies that have tried to compare purely heart rate zone two versus zone two power workouts to see was there a significant difference in the adaptation outcomes. I would say that it's unlikely that you would see anything significant. There'd probably be some individual differences, but that's not necessarily going to be because they were in heart rate or power, but rather other individual genetic differences and whatnot. You brought up a good point though. I mean, yeah, I would use lactate. I have a lactate meter though. I'm a bit of a nerdy scientist. The strips are expensive. I noticed, I think Harry Sweeney on EF Pro, he did an interesting video where he was tracking, he had a big six hour zone two ride, which for most people he was doing more like his zone three really high aerobic work.
(08:28) And periodically he was yet stopping doing a finger prick and checking his lactate to keep it in a certain range. So he was sort of basing his intensity off power and heart rate together, but then checking it with lactate. And I think pretty soon we'll see continuous lactate monitors come into play. And I think this will really change this question. I mean it won't be a question because it won't be saying, oh, we think the heart rate is a proxy for a shift. In our lactate response, we'll be able to say, is there a shift in the lactate response throughout the ride and change the intensity based on that?
Cam Nicholls (09:14):And I am assuming sometimes the heart rate's so variable, right? Sometimes it might be and sometimes it may not be as well. It's probably not going to be linear.
Ben Treble (09:23):You're using it to know when you get out of an aerobic state. But it's like, well, you have to be in a pretty high intensity to get out of, I mean we're always using our aerobic system to some degree at a certain intensity. Fat oxidation completely drops off to zero, but it's a very high intensity to get to that point. And if you're doing zone two heart rate or zone two by power, I don't suspect you're getting close to this intensity where you would be dropping off your aerobic fat oxidation, but your aerobic system is still getting hit, right? We say it comes back to why we do zone two training. Like well, if it's to develop your aerobic capacity, I mean VO2 intervals, which are pretty high intensity, we know as one of the best ways to improve VO2, max, which is our best measure of aerobic capacity. So again, it comes back to some of the other research that pretty quickly says we have to do hard work to get good adaptations, whether that's aerobic or anaerobic.
Cam Nicholls (10:25):And I've always been like, look, if you can go out and write at 65% of your FTP for three hours, constant pressure, not deviate too much, that's a great ride well done. Don't worry so much about what's going on with your heart rate. Just go do that a few times over the next month or two and that that's a good adaptation. It's a different way of training just doing that versus, oh, but my heart rate's gone up this much, so I'm going to now drop down to 55% of FTP at the two hour mark. And to add another layer to that, and this is just a pure anecdotal experience, I remember when I first got into training, the guy wanted me to have a power meter. I'm talking like 2012, like a long time ago, and I went with heart rate and I started to do these longer three, four hour zone two rides.
(11:18) And I remember I got to the end of the ride and I could tell that I was really reducing the power through the pedal stroke to keep my heart rate in zone two. So what was I ultimately doing? I was conditioning myself to reduce the power as the ride went on. Whereas when the following year was the event that I was targeting, I actually performed really poorly. And I dunno whether this was correlated, but I did a different coach, different program, but I was training to power. I would focus on my zone two power, and I noticed my heart rate was really drifting a lot during these rides and I was asking him questions, should I follow power? Should I follow the heart? He goes, no, just keep following power. And what you'll notice over time is your heart rate will actually on these longer rides will start coming down and stop drifting less.
(12:05) You're conditioning yourself to ride at that particular power. So I was like, okay, cool. So I kept doing, over the course of many weeks, months, my heart rate stopped drifting as much and it started producing. I'm like, oh, hang on a sec. I'm now actually riding at a constant zone two power for three hours and my heart rate is no longer drifting into zone three and four. It's actually staying at top end zone two by the end of the ride. And it made me kind of go back to the year prior where I was following heart rate and I'm like, well, hang on a sec. I've conditioned myself in that particular training block to reduce the power as the ride went on to keep my heart rate within zone two. Whereas this year I've just kind of ignored heart rate initially and conditioned myself to produce a certain amount of power over four hours.
(12:54) And as a result of that, my heart rate's dropped and now I'm operating in zone two anyway. And then I went on and I actually podium in that same event that I was targeting the previous year where I finished 25th I podium. So my training was obviously a lot better and zone two just played a factor into that. But that was a big realization for me that by following power, I was able to condition my body at a zone two level a lot differently. And what appeared to be a lot more effectively with power versus heart rate.
Ben Treble (13:26):How many races do you go to where the intensity drops off to the end? It usually increases.
Cam Nicholls (13:31):Exactly. Yeah.
Ben Treble (13:34):But I mean, we're training a lot of different physiological systems. If you're going to train on zone two on heart rate, it's more focused on training the cardiovascular system. But that's at the same time it's not ignoring, but for simplistic sake, it's kind of ignoring what's happening at the muscular level. And ultimately, whilst the cardiovascular system is vital in the big picture, the energy output and the muscle contraction is what pushes the pedals. So at the end of the day, that's kind of what we care about the most. You need a good cardiovascular system that supports that and underpins that. But training by power is I think, a bit more correlated to focusing on training what's happening at the muscular level. What is the energy output? Well, how much energy does it take to push on what? Race specificity.
Cam Nicholls (14:38):We're both aligned. I'm glad the science man has the same viewpoint as I do. And that is, yeah, you want to track both, but if you had to pick one, you want to go to go with power. Thanks, Ben, appreciate it.
Ben Treble (14:56):Great.
Cam Nicholls (14:58):So if you're looking to do a little bit of zone two training yourself following some power programs, zone two and FTP and more, you can check out RCA has a whole bunch of off the shelf cycling plans. Just go to road cycling academy.com, check out our off the shelf plans and you can start on a training program that will catch you in the next podcast.
For more information from the Road Cycling Academy - (RCA), including blogs from our renowned road cycling coaches, head to our website.
Wed, 16 Jul 2025 - 15min - 54 - Is Zone 2 Overhyped? (for recreational & amateur cyclists)
Zone two training for recreational cyclists. Are we doing too much? That is the topic for today's podcast.
Science linked below.
Why Zone 2 isn't the best focus for recreational cyclists https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s40279-025-02261-y?sharing_token=_JBa16c0TVKpWC-ASGX5qfe4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY4Y3tM2wPWWmLYbv6lMcE-pH5K9vrfirQVzyWj5WcLQybc2o6nv6PXysP1Xo-j-QTDsrlCeVJ9oswxeS9e2PpwHVOZNvzJZ7MKKxr9P1f7alhZiBvYFi_CeRlJIju9dpZ4%3D&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAafCOwx6qpiWJzyo8YhUGj1EQL0fd3AWgnO8HbEQ92gjgT3p867-QzySTggs0g_aem_nhDD20Ez4njrNk0hghZ4Hg Defining Zone 2: https://journals.humankinetics.com/view/journals/ijspp/aop/article-10.1123-ijspp.2024-0303/article-10.1123-ijspp.2024-0303.xml Full Transcript: Cam Nicholls (00:00):Welcome back to the RCA podcast where today I am joined again by the RCAs data nerd Ben Treble. And Ben selected today's topic, which is about zone two training because he thinks it's a little bit too hyped in the recreational and amateur world, which I understand why, but I'm, we're going to have a little debate today because I think, I believe the other way. I don't think it's hyped enough, but Ben is the science guy and I'm not. So this could be an interesting discussion because he's got the evidence to back up what he's got to say. So Ben, do you want to just start us off by explaining why this topic has come to mind?
Ben Treble (00:41):Yeah, thanks Cam. It's been in the back of my mind for a while. I think there's a lot of marketing hype and the marketing companies and product companies jump on trends very quickly because that's their job. And I'll caveat this and say I'm not an anti zone two person, but I think we kind of forget where it comes from and we quickly lose the context of where did this kind of originate the idea of doing zone two and some of the research on where it comes from. So this is how do we critically analyze the research where it's come from and understand how that might apply to us as individuals because we're all different, right? A recreational cyclist is very different to an elite level writer who is doing much greater volumes of writing. What peaked the topic though was very recently there was a narrative review in the journals that came out from, I want to try to pronounce it correct, stor Etal. It's called Much Ado about zone two, and they did an article that really looked at assessing zone two's ability to improve mitochondrial capacity and cardio respiratory fitness. So we're making an assumption that the reason we're doing zone two training is to try and improve fat oxidation and improve mitochondrial capacity, these things. So if we run on that assumption is zone two training the best thing to do for recreational athletes and the general population and the narrative review looks at a lot of research and ultimately says no.
Cam Nicholls (02:21):Wow. Okay. And before you continue and explain why it was a no, can we just define zone two for the purpose of this podcast? Because I'm just conscious it can be confusing at times, particularly if you're looking at a scientific model where there's only three zones and zone two is more like your sweet spot sub-threshold. When we talk about zone two, which is predominantly what it's referred to, but just to make sure we are clear, what are we talking about?
Ben Treble (02:54):Yeah, I think we're referring to it more in the five zone model in most cases that people think about it. So it's an easy talkative pace If we're thinking more about RPE sort of scales, it's a very easy conversational intensity and the end goal typically, like from a scientific point of view, for me, the reason I would ask people to do zone two training is we're predominantly trying to improve the aerobic capacity and predominantly trying to improve our ability to maximize our fat oxidation.
Cam Nicholls (03:32):And I think in a lot of people are used to power. So in a five zone or six zone or even a seven zone model, it's typically around 55 to 75% of functional threshold power if you're using power. Is that right?
Ben Treble (03:49):Somewhere around there, potentially somewhere around there, around anywhere from 50 to 65, 70 at the high end I would say is getting closer to a tempo at that
Cam Nicholls (03:59):Point. Okay, so why was it a no for recreational and
Ben Treble (04:05):Amateurs? Yep. And for the record, this narrative review defined it as below lactate threshold one, which would be zone one in a three zone model for those listening and using a three zone model with lactate thresholds, the answer was a no, and it's because the comparator was against doing high intensity work and looking at, so the narrative review looks at a whole lot of research that's out there and says, what's improving these capacities predominantly like mitochondrial density, these sort of zone two physiological adaptations we're targeting what training best improved them. And it wasn't zone two training that improved those outcomes. It was high intensity interval training, and it was varied, like different studies of different types of zone two that could be VO2 efforts, hit sessions, all that high intensity interval work always resulted in better outcomes and adaptations that we typically associate with zone two training that when I talk to people about doing zone two training, that's what they're trying to achieve with it.
Cam Nicholls (05:15):So from what I understand, when you tip into that threshold territory when you're training, you start to shut off adaptations that you can achieve if you're just in a zone two state. So therefore, if you're predominantly focused on high intensity interval training, like you talked about VO2 max training or it could be sprint training or threshold training and you're not ever really going out and predominantly working at that aerobic level, does it mean that you're missing out on adaptations or you're still going to achieve those at a VO2 max diet or at a threshold interval state?
Ben Treble (05:58):Yeah, I think it's a good question because it outlines one of the challenges in, I would say there's short, medium, long-term development of all of these capacities. And in many cases the research is fairly focused on short and medium term development. Like we're looking at research studies that do hit intervals for six weeks and compare that to the group that did endurance training or eight weeks, 12 weeks. Very rarely do you find groups doing longitudinal studies that do this in a controlled fashion more than three months, right? Because the cost and the resource, trying to find participants to do that and stay in the study is very, very difficult. So keeping that context in mind, that's probably where the HI training is going to give you the fastest short term development of all of these capacities because even when you do hit training, you're going to have the warmup. The cool down there is still a lot of time spent in those low zones.
Cam Nicholls (07:07):And that's what I always thought. I feel like people when they look at say the 80 20 principle of the polarized model, which is where people are like, oh, well if I've got to do zone two training, I've got to do the 80 20, which is polarize and pyramidal has become more prevalent these days, which is more like a 70 30 or somewhere around there, but you're still spending a lot of time in zone one and the three zone model, which is a lot of time in zone two, which is what we're talking about today. But I think a lot of people get confused. They think, well, if two of my sessions are zone two focused and three high intensity interval training focus, then I'm doing too much high intensity interval training. But when you break down those high intensity interval training sessions individually, you go, well, I'm spending 20 minutes writing out to the hill where I'm going to do my intervals in zone two between each interval I'm in zone one, and then on my way home I'm in zone two. So even those high intensity workouts in themselves, proportion wise, you're probably spending a lot of time in zone two or zone one
Ben Treble (08:22):Significant, and it's underestimated. So it's a very good point. One I'm quite passionate about, and this comes back to something I said earlier around, I think there's a bit of a misinterpretation between the science and where we see all the marketing hype around zone two, which is, let's take the 80 20 example with polarize, which is great in science, you would often either use, it's called you measure a session, you would say there's a goal in session approach, which says if this session is VO2 intervals, it gets classified as a high intensity hard workout. The other approach that most science follows is overall relative time spent as a percentage in the zones. So if you take, for example, you get a group of people to do sprint interval training or short high intensity intervals, and they do three sessions a week of just these intervals with a warmup and cool down, when you really add all of the time up together, it will come out as polarized. But often exactly as you said, I've seen recreational or amateur cyclists say, oh, the 80 20, so if I'm doing five rides a week, two of them should be intervals and three should be zone two easy. That's not going to give you the best outcome. And it's not a polarized distribution as in what gets taken away from the research. So you're not going to get the same outcome. They're totally different things.
Cam Nicholls (10:00):So therefore people need to more specifically look at their total work time versus the workouts as what they're doing in the workout and they'll have more effective outcomes as a general blanket. Of course, it depends on what you're training for, but we know a lot of recreational and amateurs are looking to roll more turns in the bunch. They're looking to increase their FTP, they're looking to beat their mates up the local climb. So as a result of that zone two training as a foundational tool will help, but not as much as your high intensity interval training sessions.
Ben Treble (10:36):I think sometimes we forget some basic principles and we overcomplicate things. The way our body works is we have to stress it to cause adaptations and we get the adaptations from the recovery. So if we're just doing super low intensity work, you're not going to create a lot of stress on the body that's going to create a lot of adaptation. So the question is where did the zone two training come from? This is maybe it's a view of my own, not the one that everybody would necessarily share, but I would look at training a bit more from the perspective of how much time do you have to train and how much energy expenditure is available and how do we recover from that? How much time is there to recover from this? And this is a better determinant of how much work can the athlete take on? And that's where we start to build a program out. When you think of elite athletes, when we do high intensity work, we use a lot of glycogen, which is one of our limited resources, right? In a 90 minutes session, like super high intensity session, you can pretty much burn through your full glycation stores, 90 minutes to two hours, you'll burn through your full stores and it will take most people on average 48 hours to fully replenish them.
(11:57) So if you think about everybody's limiting factor of 24 hours a day with seven days a week, you can only fit in two to three super hard sessions a week. So what do the pros do with all the other hours? Low intensity work and high volumes of it, there's nothing else to do. So of course they're getting massive adaptations, but they're already doing the maximal level of high intensity work that we can from an energetic point of view tolerate. So if you get someone who's only got six hours a week to train, if you said spread them out and you do three, two hour sessions of hard efforts versus someone who just does one hard effort session with two easy ones, I would expect you get much better performance outcomes from the guy doing the high intensity stuff all the time. Now that's not factoring in, especially with recreational athletes, can they recover and mentally handle that training load, right? So that's the individualization piece that's again, often missing from this marketing media scientific conversation.
Cam Nicholls (13:09):What I've often seen at the RCA in the past, we've had the recreational that comes to us or amateur, and they've been doing roughly 10 hours a week. They've been doing very little zone too. They've been doing a lot of tempo because tempo feels like they're doing something Zone three, maybe like 80, 85% of FTP, that's where they love to sit, particularly when they're riding side by side with the mate and they're half wheeling each other. They might be doing some bunches, so they're taking their heart rate to max two or three times a week and they might, they call it a social spin on a Friday, which ends up, they're still doing 400 watts up the hills and they're coaching down the other side. So you actually look at what they've been doing for the past 6, 12, 18 months more and it's just been all intensity.
(13:57) So what I've seen worked well as a coach in the past. I don't coach anymore as you know, and maybe I had this wrong, but I saw, and this is where I'm going to debate you a little bit, but maybe you'll agree given the fact that I'm presenting this context of this persona that we go, alright, you're not in a rush to achieve your goal, which is to take your FTP from 250 watts to 300 watts. That's a very common goal. Everyone wants to hit that next 50 watt mark in their FTP. So let's spend the next six to eight weeks just getting rid of intensity and we're just going to focus mostly on aerobic work. We'll do maybe a bit of tempo, but we'll do a lot of zone two stuff. So you've got eight to 10 hours a week and we're just going to sit at zone two.
(14:49) And what I've found this to do is number one, it freshens them up. So they probably need a bit of a bout of away from max heart rate away from intensity. Let's just give the muscular skeletal system and your mental capacity a bit of a rest. And in doing so, they seem to cultivate different adaptations. And the big one that I see when I've done this with members is you might get them to do a zone two ride. So 65, 70% of FTP on the trainer and they look at what their heart rate does and their heart rate will drift by 10, 15 beats in this one hour ride and their heart rate will be quite high. And then if they spend that six to eight weeks specifically focused on this zone two training, you get to the eight week mark and all of a sudden they do the same ride on the trainer, 65% of FTP, their average heart rate dropped about by about 10 beats and their drift is maybe three or four beats over the one hour versus the 15 beats.
(15:56) It was at the start of the process. So you're like, wow, this person has really, there's something physiological that's happened in their body for their heart rate to drop significantly and drift a lot less. And my understanding from that was, well, they're no longer getting a rise out of the lactate system so they can focus on aerobic adaptations, they're increasing their lung capacity, they're stretching their left ventricle, they're boosting mitochondrial function. What is it? The red capillary network is enhanced? All these things have occurred. So is there truth to that or was I just feeding into the marketing zone two hype at the time four or five years ago?
Ben Treble (16:44):My first thought would simply be that most likely they never were getting enough recovery. Like most amateurs like you, I think are the same experience. They come to you, they have this sort of a lot of social rides, but they often, one, don't have enough recovery within the week from those moderate hard rides that are mixed bags, let's call it. And they don't have enough recovery week on week, so there's no periodization. It's not like they build up for three weeks and take an easy week or do a specific block and have a week off. And I think very simply by just doing what you said, taking someone from that first baseline into just having some easy rides throughout the week that's targeted would give them recovery from the hard rides and they would see adaptation from this and feel better for it. That's my initial reaction. So it's not wrong, but I think that's why they would see the benefit, which comes back to how much ability does athlete have to recover within their context and how much can they tolerate in terms of high intensity work.
Cam Nicholls (18:00):So in an ideal state, if somebody's coming blank canvas and they don't have these bad habits and they're not in a fatigued state, then using a combination of high intensity interval training two to three times a week with some zone two ride splashed in there, mainly used for recovery and also to keep your consistency going will foster the best outcomes from an aerobic adaptation perspective.
Ben Treble (18:32):And there's a key factor here. You still get some amateur riders who do larger volumes,
(18:39) True and riders develop only recreational riders might come in and start by doing four, six hours a week, fall into the sport quickly, and within a few months they're doing 10 hours a week or more. And so at some point you have to adjust this, right? So this idea that you could only do high intensity work sort of prevails when you're doing two or three sessions a week and that's it. But once you start doing long rides on the weekend and this volume is getting greater, you have to start factoring that in. How much recovery do you need from those and how much recovery do you need from the high intensity work to make sure when you get to the next high intensity session, you're able to do it at full capacity?
Cam Nicholls (19:21):Interesting. And I also think once people learn how to do zone two training, because a lot of people think that they're doing it, but they're not. I've got a friend here on the Sunshine Coast and I've told him 130,000 times now how to do it and he'll go out and we'll go ride together and I know he can't do it, it's not possible and we'll get back and he goes, oh, that was a great zone two ride. And I'm thinking to myself, not in an arrogant way, I'm just thinking that's not a zone two ride, Matt, why? Because we've got some little rollers here. Every time we get to a roller, he gets out of the saddle and he's going over threshold a hundred percent and he rides away from me. And then when we go down the little rise, I'll catch up to him and go past him keeping the pressure on the pedals.
(20:07) I'm staying in that zone two state, whereas he will be free peddling a little bit, probably in zone one. So he's in and out of, he's jumping either side of zone two sometimes in zone two. Whereas if you can actually learn how to do it properly, I feel like it's a different experience. So if you go out and you sit at 60 to 65, 70% of FTP and you don't have traffic lights and you can be there for a solid one to two hours, you actually get back from the ride and you're like, oh, I actually feel not fatigued. I'm not getting into the afternoon period and feeling like I've actually done something really physical and it feels kind of like a different physiological feeling after a zone two, unless you do five hours of course, then it's going to fatigue you. But if it's just one to two hours and it, it's a different physiological feeling.
(21:05) And also once you perfect it as well, I found this with a lot of recreationals, I actually really enjoy my zone two rides. So I'll go out and I'll do two hours down the coast, there's some rollers, but I'll basically stay in zone two for 98% of the time and I just really enjoy that type of riding. So there's a practical side to it as well. Once people learn how to do it properly, it gets t
Fri, 04 Jul 2025 - 27min - 53 - Why Recreational Cyclists Cramp (& what to do about it)
Cramps ruining your big rides? In this episode, we dive into why recreational cyclists are so prone to cramping during events—and it's not just about hydration or electrolytes. We break down how poor event-specific training and a lack of proper muscle conditioning are often the real culprits. Learn what you can do to prepare your body, build resilience, and keep the cramps at bay when it matters most.
Fri, 13 Jun 2025 - 17min - 52 - 3 Week Build VS. 4 Week Build (What's Best the for a Masters Cyclist)
In this episode, we unpack one of the biggest questions for Masters cyclists: should you follow a traditional four-week build cycle, or is a three-week build with more recovery actually better as you age? We explore the pros and cons of each approach, how recovery needs change over 40, and why a slightly shorter build phase might help you train harder, stay fresher, and see better long-term gains. If you've ever felt wrecked by week four or struggled to balance life, training, and recovery, this conversation is for you.
Fri, 13 Jun 2025 - 15min - 51 - 3 Things That Matter Most (for a the Masters Cyclist)
In this episode, we break down three key pillars for Masters cyclists and endurance athletes: how to perform proper recovery, why and how to include weight training, and the essentials of effective sprint training. Whether you're looking to bounce back faster, build strength safely, or add top-end speed to your riding, this conversation covers practical tips, common mistakes, and science-backed strategies to help you train smarter as you age.
Fri, 13 Jun 2025 - 34min - 50 - Sports Dietitian's Honest Take on Sugar Flasks & Water (for training & racing)
Is sugar water really a performance hack or just a budget-friendly myth? In this episode, Sports Dietitian Steph Cronin gives her balanced, no-hype take on using sugar water as a fueling strategy — including when it works, when it doesn't, and how it stacks up against commercial sports drinks.
We also dive into gear talk: soft flasks, squeeze bottles, and the simplest, smartest ways to carry your fuel during training and racing — without blowing your budget.
Whether you're an endurance athlete looking to save money, or just want to cut through the noise around sports nutrition, this episode is packed with practical, honest insights.
Thu, 05 Jun 2025 - 18min - 49 - Latest Research on Altitude Training (& what the pros are doing)
Is altitude training still the secret weapon for cyclists—or has the science changed? In this episode, we explore the latest research on altitude training and its impact on cycling performance.
We'll cover:
How altitude training works and why it improves endurance, power, and recovery
The latest scientific insights on hypoxic training methods—live high, train low, intermittent hypoxia, and more
Practical strategies for incorporating altitude training into your cycling plan (even if you don't live near the mountains)
Who should (and shouldn't) use altitude training for maximum gains
If you're curious about boosting your red blood cells, VO2 Max, and stamina using altitude, this episode is your go-to guide.
For more information from the Road Cycling Academy - (RCA), including blogs from our renowned road cycling coaches, head to our website.
Wed, 14 May 2025 - 19min - 48 - Why Concurrent Training is a Must for Cycling Performance (the science)
Think weight training is just for bodybuilders? Think again. In this episode, we break down why smart strength training is a must for road cyclists who want to climb faster, sprint harder, and ride longer—without burning out.
We explore:
The science of how strength training boosts cycling performance
Key benefits like improved power output, pedal efficiency, and injury prevention
Debunking myths: Why lifting won't make you "too bulky" for the bike
How to structure your strength sessions to complement, not compete with, your riding
Whether you're a seasoned cyclist or new to the road, adding the right kind of strength work can be a game-changer for your endurance, speed, and resilience.
For more information from the Road Cycling Academy - (RCA), including blogs from our renowned road cycling coaches, head to our website.
Wed, 14 May 2025 - 19min - 47 - The best interval workout to BOOST V02 Max (the science)
In this episode, we dive into one of the most effective—and underrated—workouts to skyrocket your VO2 Max and take your endurance to the next level: the 30/15 Tabata protocol.
VO2 Max is your body's maximum oxygen uptake, a key marker of cardiovascular fitness and performance. Whether you're an athlete, weekend warrior, or just looking to optimize your health, improving VO2 Max can lead to better stamina, faster recovery, and more efficient energy use.
We'll break down:
How the 30/15 Tabata method works (hint: it's not your standard Tabata)
The science behind short, high-intensity intervals for massive aerobic gains
How to safely implement this powerful protocol into your weekly training
Get ready to challenge your lungs, heart, and legs with one of the quickest ways to level up your fitness.
Wed, 14 May 2025 - 24min - 46 - 3 Most Common Mistakes Cyclists Make with Weight Loss (with Sports Dietitian)
In this episode with expert Sports Dietitian (Steph Cronin), we dive into the three biggest mistakes cyclists often make when trying to lose weight—and how they can backfire on both performance and long-term progress. From underfueling your rides, to the all-too-common habit of skipping breakfast, and the weekend splurges that undo a week's worth of effort—we break down why these strategies don't work and what to do instead. Whether you're a casual rider or training seriously, this episode will help you find a smarter, more sustainable approach to fueling and fat loss.
Work with Steph here https://roadcyclingacademy.com/power-to-weight-program/
Fri, 09 May 2025 - 09min - 45 - Critical Power VS FTP for Road Cycling (which one should you use)
In this episode, we dive into one of the most debated topics in cycling performance: Critical Power vs Functional Threshold Power (FTP). Both metrics promise to guide your training, predict race performance, and help you understand your limits — but which one is actually more useful?
We break down what each metric really means, how they're calculated, and the practical pros and cons of using them for road cycling. From structured training plans to real-world race strategy, we'll help you figure out which metric better aligns with your goals.
🚴♂️ Whether you're a data geek, weekend warrior, or just trying to ride smarter — this episode is your go-to guide for choosing the right power metric to level up your cycling game.
Fri, 18 Apr 2025 - 17min - 44 - Group Rides for Training (are they a good thing?)
Group rides can be a blast — the camaraderie, the competition, the coffee stop. But when it comes to structured training, do they help or hurt your progress? In this episode, we dig into the pros and cons of using group rides as a training tool. Whether you're chasing PRs, building base fitness, or just trying to stay consistent, we break down when group rides make sense — and when they might be doing more harm than good. Tune in to find out if your weekend smash-fest is actually moving the needle on your fitness.
Fri, 18 Apr 2025 - 13min - 43 - Fuelling Strategies for Racing & Training (Carb 101 with the Nero Show)
In this episode, I dive deep into the science and practical application of carbohydrate fuelling for cyclists with the Nero Show lads. Whether you're grinding through intense training blocks or lining up at the start of your next big race, understanding how to fuel properly with carbs can be a game-changer. We cover the different fuelling needs for training vs. racing, timing strategies, carb loading, and how to avoid common mistakes. Learn how to optimize your performance, boost recovery, and keep your energy levels dialed in.
Tune in for expert tips, real-world examples, and actionable strategies to help you ride stronger, longer, and smarter.
Fri, 11 Apr 2025 - 39min - 42 - 3 Most Common Zone 2 Training Mistakes
In this episode, RCA Head Coach Ryan Thomas and Cam Nicholls take a deep dive into the most common mistakes cyclists make when training in Zone 2. Whether you're a recreational rider or an amateur cyclist, understanding the nuances of Zone 2 training is crucial for building endurance, improving fat metabolism, and achieving long-term fitness gains.
Ryan and Cam will break down the most frequent errors they see—such as riding too hard, neglecting consistency, and misunderstanding heart rate vs. power metrics—and explain how these mistakes can hinder your progress. They'll also provide actionable tips to help you train smarter, maximize your physiological adaptations, and take your cycling performance to the next level.
If you want to unlock the full potential of your endurance training and avoid the pitfalls that slow many cyclists down, this is an episode you won't want to miss!
Fri, 04 Apr 2025 - 11min - 41 - When Should You Go Longer Cranks? (Expert Fitter Explains)
In this podcast expert bike fitter Neill Stanbury provides us with a lens on how to pick or go for a longer crank length, say over your standard 172.5mm crank. Neill will discuss physiological reasons and practical reasons for specific individuals. Bike Fit Fundamentals links is here: https://shorturl.at/3qApr
Thu, 20 Mar 2025 - 08min - 40 - Should You Go Shorter Cranks, like 165mm? (Bike Fitter explains)
In this podcast expert bike fitter, Neill Stanbury, shares why you should consider 165mm cranks. Outside of the fact tadej pogacar uses them. Neill will be discussing this more so from a biomechanical perspective with a touch of performance based advantages in mind. Link to the Bike Fit Fundamentals course here: https://shorturl.at/3qApr
Thu, 13 Mar 2025 - 12min - 39 - Maximizing Your Big Training Week: Key Tips & Insights
In this podcast RCA Head Coach (Ryan Thomas) and Cam Nicholls discuss the physiological impacts of a big week of training. Whether that be from a camp, cycling holiday, or maybe the stars aligned, and you were just able to get out a ride long and hard for the week. This is a common occurrence from recreational and amateur road cyclists, yet many don't know how to deal with it. In this podcast Ryan will also share how to ensure you properly absorb the physical stress so it turns into fitness adaptions VS over training aka a performance plateau.
Fri, 07 Mar 2025 - 25min - 38 - How to Prepare & Pace a MONSTER Cycling Event (#PeaksChallenge)
In this podcast I am speaking with RCA Head Coach - Ryan Thomas - about preparing for a major cycling event. Something that's going to require a dialled in carb loading, nutrition/ hydration and pacing plan for the day. Given the fact Peaks Challenge is around the corner for a lot of our members - 235km | 4000+ metres of climbing | 13 hour deadline - we are discussing this event as the primary focus. However, many of the core principles relate to all major cycling events.
Mentioned study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2657963/
Thu, 27 Feb 2025 - 39min - 37 - Why Indoor Cycling is Harder than Outdoors (& what the research says)
In this podcast the RCA's head coach shares some research and ideas surrrounding indoor power VS outdoor power. Should they be considered the same or different?
Quoted reserach:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24476776/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24476776/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30859858/Fri, 21 Feb 2025 - 16min - 36 - New Study Favours Low Cadence Drills for Improved Cycling Performance
In today's podcast I want to share a recent study on low cadence work. Another 'low cadence' study that is favourable towards low cadence drills, but another low cadence study which needs to be pot into perspective. In this podcast we speak with RCA Head Coach Ryan Thomas, who also shares with us how to implement low cadence work into your cycling training.
Referenced study: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11559993/
Fri, 14 Feb 2025 - 17min - 35 - The Importance of NAD for Cycling Performance
In this podcast I am speaking with an internationally-recognized integrative medicine expert and author, Vanita Dahia (from Nutripath) about NAD and the importance of it for general human health and cycling performance.
https://vanitadahia.com/about/
In this podcast, I'm also referencing my experiences taking an NAD boosting supplement and the benefits I've personally seen. This is from a 54% increase in my NAD blood levels.
Referenced study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31494696/#:~:text=Results%3A%20NR%20supplementation%20by%20itself,compared%20to%20the%20trained%20group.
Agemate:
Nutripath:
Fri, 07 Feb 2025 - 30min - 34 - He Studied a Continental Cycling Team for Years (PHD learnings with Dr Aaron Turner)
In this podcast I am speaking with Dr Aaron Turner (https://www.usc.edu.au/staff/aaron-turner) about his PHD studies, which included monitoring many elite road cyclists from the ARA Skip Capital team. A Continental Cycling team based here on the Sunshine Coast. Aaron shines the light on fatigue and stress management considerations for performance gains, and his biggest takeaways, in terms of what athletes were getting wrong when it comes to fatigue management.
Fri, 31 Jan 2025 - 18min - 33 - How to Beat Your Mates (in the local Group Ride)
In this podcast RCA Head Coach shares with us how to go about beating your mates in the local group ride. Lactate clearance, V02 Max and neuromuscular repeatability are all areas Ryan dives into. With the view you should walk away from this podcast with a general understanding on what training you need to do to take that next step in your local group ride.
Thu, 16 Jan 2025 - 25min - 32 - How This Well-Trained Amateur Added 40 watts to his FTP
In this podcast Head RCA Coach Ryan Thomas shares with us how he took a well trained amateur road cyclist in his mid fifties - who has been training to structure for over 5years - went from a 260w FTP to 308. This member was training for a gruelling event, so Ryan discusses the type of training that was implemented to achieve the goal and the net effect of a significant FTP increase.
Thu, 19 Dec 2024 - 25min - 31 - What's Best for Indoor Cycling (ERG Mode or Level Mode?)
In this episode we deep dive into the world of smart trainers, exploring the pros and cons of ERG mode and LVL (free ride) mode.
We discuss how each mode impacts your training, helping you decide which is best for your goals and ultimately guide you on what you should be doing when you're training indoors.
Check out our training plans and coaching options at our website
Fri, 13 Dec 2024 - 19min - 30 - Boost Cycling Performance with Heart Rate Insights (Cardiovascular Drift)Fri, 06 Dec 2024 - 25min
- 29 - Best Set & Rep Range for Cyclists Using Gym (with Dr Aaron Turner)
In this podcast cycling Strength & Conditioning Coach, Dr Aaron Turner, discusses the best set and rep range for lifting in the gym, for cycling strength outcomes. Aaron will discuss the % of max you should also be lifting, so you're not over-reaching in the gym and available for high intensity cycling training, along with gym training.
Fri, 29 Nov 2024 - 10min - 28 - The Number One Mistake Cyclists Make with Gym / Strength Training
We are back again with Dr Aaron Turner, PDH in Load Management and a specialist cycling strength and conditioning coach. In this episode, Aaron will outline the biggest mistakes cyclists make in the gym, when attempting to use strength training as a way of improving their cycling performance. Aaron will then outline the simple strategies you can use to ensure you're not making the same mistake in the gym.
Thu, 21 Nov 2024 - 12min - 27 - Strength Training for Masters Cyclists (what you need to know)
In this podcast we're back with Doctor Aaron Turner, an expert Strength and Conditioning Coach for road cyclists. Aaron discussing the strategy cyclists need to have in the gym as they start to age. We discuss the set and rep ranges, recovery periods, recovery strategies and general considerations as we step into (or get settled) in the Masters category. For the purposes of this discussion we have labeled masters cyclists between the ages of 40-65.
Fri, 15 Nov 2024 - 16min - 26 - Positional Problems that are Killing Your Power Transfer (with bike fitter Neill Stanbury)Fri, 08 Nov 2024 - 11min
- 25 - Best Off-Bike Exercises to Improve Hill Climbing (with Strength Coach, Aaron Turner)Fri, 01 Nov 2024 - 10min
- 24 - The Right Approach to Weight Training for Cyclists (at a Beginner level)
In this podcast, Dr Aaron Turner (Cycling Strength & Conditioning Coach) explains how you would go about dipping your toe into the water with gym, if your new to it for cycling performance. Aaron explains the importance of establishing good core and syabilisers before heading straight for the 200KG deadlift or squat rack. Aaron also explains the type of set / rep range as you progress into the gym, and the concept of having an off season phase (on the bike). Hope you enjoy
Thu, 24 Oct 2024 - 15min - 23 - Top 3 Workouts to Improve Neuromuscular Repeatability (for Criterium Racing)
In this episode, Cam Nicholls has his notepad out. Cam's keen to get back into local criterium racing but he has a BIG weakness. Neuromuscular repeatability! Aka, being able to dish out continuous attacks in a crit race or at least being able to follow the continuous attacks. So Head Coach of the RCA (Ryan Thomas) - who has shown many many times how he can win an elite level criterium - explains the key training sessions that will BOOST this neuromuscular repeatability requirement for crit racing.
Thu, 17 Oct 2024 - 14min - 22 - 5 Key Ways to Boost FTPSat, 12 Oct 2024 - 13min
- 21 - 3 Training Sessions That Hold Recreational & Amateur Cyclists Back
In this podcast RCA Head Coach Ryan Thomas will be discussing the three training sessions holding cyclists back. This is from 5 years of experience where Ryan is onboarding recreational road cyclists and identifying areas in their training they are not touching on. Prior to working with the RCA on some structure. The idea of this episode is that you understand what there three sessions are and what you can implement into your cycling training right away.
Fri, 04 Oct 2024 - 16min - 20 - Discussing three of the latest sports science research trends (with professional cycling coach and PHD researcher Luca Filipas)
In this podcast we talk with Sports Science Masters and PHD graduate from the University of Milan about some of the research he has done and his experience coaching in a professional cycling team to date.
Effects of 16 weeks of pyramidal and polarized training intensity distributions in well-trained endurance runners is the first bit of research we talk and dive into the results looking at the practical implications of applying these training methods in conjunction with one another. There is a bigger picture to this concept that Luca shares with us.
The Day-by-Day Periodization Strategies of a Giro d'Italia Podium Finisher is the second piece of research we talk about where Luca collaborated with his co-authers, to reveal how the worlds best athletes train from day to day.
Mental fatigue impairs time trial performance in sub-elite under 23 cyclists is the final research we talk about and dive into how these results may affect the average day cyclist training with mental fatigue.
Thu, 15 Feb 2024 - 49min - 19 - How a Paralympic medalist got more power by riding slower (with Alistair Donohoe)
In this episode we chat to Paralympic medallist and multiple world champion Alistair Donohoe. Alistair shares his memories from a dramatic finish in the Rio 2016 Road Race (watch video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjywg0MdI2w) and how in the form of his life at the 2020 Tokyo Paralympic Road Race also left him wanting more heading into Paris 2024. We discuss how after a dramatic change in training he broke personal bests by doing something every cyclist can do! We also talk about the specific strength and conditioning training that he does to make sure he is at his best going into race season.
Fri, 01 Dec 2023 - 1h 03min - 18 - Ketones for Cycling Performance with Science Researcher / PHD / Ted Talker (Andrew Koutnik)
In this podcast Cam Nicholls is speaking with Andrew Koutnik (https://www.ihmc.us/groups/andrew-koutnik/), a scientific researcher who has invested years of research into the ketogenic diet and also the use of exogenous ketones for disease and sports performance. In this podcast we discuss why ketones are being used for sports performance, what they are exactly, and how exogenous works in comparison to endogenous ketones. We'll also get a little YouTuby and see what Andrew thinks about people calling ketone supplements a "snake oil" and finally if he believes ketones interfere with glycolysis at high intensives.
Tue, 28 Nov 2023 - 50min - 17 - How I Transitioned from Road to Track (with Byron Davies)
In this episode we are talking with Byron Davies - an elite Australian Track sprinter with the Australian Institute of Sport - who transitioned from road to track four years ago. Bryon deep dives into his training and nutritional transformation and tells us how off bike strength training has had the biggest impact.
Tue, 07 Nov 2023 - 44min - 16 - How I finally Became a Pro Cyclist (with Cyrus Monk)
In this Podcast we chat with Cyrus Monk, an individual who defied the odds, becoming a pro cyclist at the age of 26. Perhaps common ground 5-10 years ago, not so much now. In this chat Cyrus shares his journey to pro cycling ranks and then the big shifts he's noticed in training and the 'marginal gains' side of being pro. As a road cycling coach himself, the chat on training goes into some detail, some low cadence work, to recovery protocols.
Sun, 15 Oct 2023 - 51min - 15 - Weight Training for Cyclists (with Cycling Strength Coach, Aaron Turner)
In this episdoe cyclign strength coach Aaron Turner discussed the benefits of off bike strength training for road cyclists, some of the biggest mistakes people make in the gym, and how to best combien weight lifting with cycling training. Aaron will also provide an overview of his current study, being a PHD in cycling load.
Tue, 19 Jul 2022 - 1h 09min - 14 - What do Professional Cyclists do in the Off-Season? (with Simon Clarke)
In this podcast, we have Professional Cyclist and Road Captain from EF Education First, Simon Clarke. Simon – who has won stages within all 3 grand tours, and wore pink during the Giro in 2015- was recently up in my home town of Noosa, Sunshine Coast, to ride the Noosa Criterium, which is part of the Noosa Triathlon Multi Sports Festival in November. He was also here to promote a cycling tour business he's created which you'll hear about during this podcast. I really did enjoy this conversation with Simon, as we covered some interesting topics at a pro-level, which included:
What to pro cyclists do in the off-season
Training with power
What's it like to be a road captain, including the challenges that come with the role,
& why so many young pro riders don't make it when they first get to Europe.
Wed, 13 Nov 2019 - 36min - 13 - Behind CHAPTER2 & Developing the RERE (A First Generation Aero Race Bike)
In this discussion, I am chatting with the founder and CEO / Product Director of CHAPTER2 https://au.chapter2bikes.com/, an emerging road brand out of New Zealand. Chris Young (CHAPTER2 Head of Marketing) also joins in on this discussion, where we focus on the development of the CHAPTER2 brand and their first-generation aerodynamic frame released mid-2018, called the Rere. Personally, I have been riding the Rere for roughly 4 months now. A lot of content has gone up on my YouTube account, so this discussion not only provides context into the brand and Rere frame development, I also get to ask a number of questions that have come directly from the YouTube audience.
Mon, 04 Mar 2019 - 52min - 12 - V02 Max VS Lactate Blood Testing (Working with real numbers to improve performance)
In this Bike Chaser podcast (https://www.bikechaser.com.au/news/podcast/) I am speaking with Luke McIlroy from METS Performance Consulting. Luke has an education and background in sports sciences, notably working with endurance athletes, such as triathletes and cyclists. Luke explains for us the difference between a V02 Max and Lactate Blood test, why you would do a VO2 Max and Lactate Blood test combined, and then – using an example of a triathlete client who used to train 23 hours per week – Luke describes how to use the test numbers to reduce training load and improve performance.
Thu, 04 Oct 2018 - 17min - 11 - The Benefits of Fasting with Fasting Expert Tim Altman (Intermittent & Extended)
In this podcast I am speaking with fasting expert Tim Altman. During this discussion we will outline the benefits of fasting, why I personally chose a juice fast over a water fast, and the effects the cleanse I've just had has already had on my body. While the goal of this 5-day juice fast wasn't for weight loss, Tim will provide all analytics (including weight loss) – via my bioimpedance test results - on all physiological effects post fast, while I provide context into my personal experiences with the detoxification process and the side effects I felt within my body. Tim will conclude with the positive outcomes this juice fast has already delivered to me and I explain how I intend to utilise my new internal physiological platform.
Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 54min - 10 - From Middle Distance Runner to Pro Tour Contract in less than 2 Years
In this podcast I am speaking with James aka Jimmy Whelan. This time two years ago, James (Jimmy) Whelan was travelling overseas in Europe with a close buddy to experience life as a kid. This came post a debilitating Achilles injury that became the clincher to alter Jimmy's direction away from aspirations to become an Olympic middle distance runner. At the backend of 2016 Jimmy started riding to keep fit and decided to give racing a go, buying a 3-race pass at his local Hawthorn Cycling Club criteriums. Now, roughly 18 months later as he's just signed a 3-year contract with world tour team EF Education First - Drapac p/b Cannondale
In this discussion, Jimmy talks us through the offer in detail before we backtrack into how he ended up from runner to pro tour contract in less than 2 years
Wed, 06 Jun 2018 - 51min - 9 - How to train at altitude and why, with Rico Rogers
In this podcast we discuss altitude training with Rico Rogers – an ex pro cyclist and now owner of Box Altitude. This discussion focuses on why an athlete or someone generally interested in health and well-being would use altitude solutions. From there we deep dive into how you go about implementing altitude exposure in your life and the benefits Rico has seen in his clients and also from his own personal use of altitude.
Wed, 30 May 2018 - 57min - 8 - Nathan Elliott's win at the 2018 Grafton to Inverell
In today's episode, I am speaking with an ultra-endurance weapon that rides for Bennelong Swisswellness. No man in the history of the universe has won back to back Warny's. Australia's biggest one-day classic, a 277km beast of a race. And now Nathan's added further credibility to his ultra-endurance credentials by winning the second biggest one-day classic race here in Australia - the Grafton to Inverell.
In this discussion we start with Nathan's introduction into cycling - which is a unique story in itself - right through to the final cat and mouse tactics between Nathan and Raphael Freienstein from InForm Make on those final kms to the Inverell finish line.
Tue, 22 May 2018 - 38min
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