It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Rob and Jonathan conclude their two-part series on football fanzines with Daniel Gray, editor of Nutmeg, host of the When Saturday Comes podcast and author of Fanzine: The Story of Football's Alternative Press.

This time they turn to the serious side of the movement. They look at how fanzines warned for years that a disaster like Hillsborough was coming, and how they fought back against the blame put on supporters, including The Sun's notorious front page. They talk about the campaigns that brought fanzines together: opposing Margaret Thatcher's ID card scheme, resisting all-seater stadiums, taking on the National Front at Leeds and helping Charlton get back to The Valley.

They also remember the joys of fanzine culture: guides to away grounds, ideas borrowed from other fanzines, and the expensive Club Call phone lines. Then they ask whether Fever Pitch, Fantasy Football, Standing Room Only and the early days of 606 took the fanzine spirit mainstream, or killed it off?

00:58 Foreshadowing Hillsborough

04:03 "It Must Be Our Fault Again"

04:41 The Fight Against ID Cards

09:34 Taking On The Sun

11:30 Standing vs All-Seater Stadiums

13:59 Fanzines Against Racism

16:38 Back to The Valley

19:32 Did Fanzines Reduce Violence?

21:43 Dissent and Contrarians

22:34 What Fanzines Got Wrong

23:42 Away Guides and Borrowed Ideas

25:42 The Club Call Rip-Off

30:04 Fanzines Go Mainstream

31:36 Standing Room Only and Fantasy Football

33:34 The Premier League and Fever Pitch

37:07 606, Then and Now

43:33 The Return of Inflatable Bananas

45:14 From Fanzines to the Hillsborough Law

46:37 Fanzines Today

49:41 Fans vs the European Super League

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Rob and Jonathan begin a two-part series on football fanzines with Daniel Gray, editor of Nutmeg, host of the When Saturday Comes podcast and author of the new book Fanzine: The Story of Football's Alternative Press.

They each share how they got started: Rob with QPR's A Kick Up the R's, Jonathan with Sunderland's A Love Supreme and Daniel with Middlesbrough's Fly Me to the Moon. They explore how DIY, punk-influenced magazines gave a voice to supporters who were demonised in the 1980s.

They look at how national titles like When Saturday Comes and Off the Ball, the Football Supporters' Association and London's Sports Pages bookshop built a sense of unity among fans. There are tales of lawsuits, angry chairmen, Brian Clough storming into a newsagent and Jonathan's run-in with the police at Southend. Finally, they reflect on how fanzines launched countless writing careers, including their own.

01:59 What Is a Fanzine?

04:04 Our First Fanzines

11:01 Giving Demonised Fans a Voice

12:57 A Million Copies Sold

16:47 Terrace Talk Begins in York

19:22 Police, Bans and Free Speech

22:53 Bradford and The City Gent

25:51 Foreshadowing Hillsborough

29:12 When Saturday Comes

32:10 Early Pioneers: The Shamrock and Foul

41:19 National Fanzines Unite Fans

43:04 Sports Pages

45:52 Arrested at Southend

48:23 Lawsuits and Angry Chairmen

50:54 A Launchpad for Writers

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper conclude their series on Arsène Wenger’s arrival in English football by focusing on his first full season at Arsenal (1997-98), when early doubts, draws, and a UEFA Cup exit gave way to a transformative run to the league and FA Cup double. They discuss how Wenger blended George Graham’s defensive core with signings like Petit and Overmars, and how his pioneering approach to nutrition, recovery, psychology, and scouting created a decisive late-season fitness edge—highlighted by the 1-0 win at Old Trafford that ignited a near-flawless finish. The episode relives the title-clinching 4-0 over Everton capped by Tony Adams’ iconic goal, reflects on Gary Neville’s view of the ’98 side as Arsenal’s toughest, and argues Wenger’s broader legacy in accelerating sports science, data, recruitment, and acceptance of foreign managers in the Premier League.

00:00 Wenger’s Defining Year

00:25 Setting the 97-98 Focus

02:14 New Signings Take Shape

03:28 Sizing Up the Rivals

05:48 Pints and Culture Clash

07:04 Sports Science Revolution

08:34 Psychology and Red to Blue

12:17 Scouting and Club Foundations

15:55 France Ascendant and Clairefontaine

19:28 Family Life and Early Stumbles

24:42 Neville on the 98 Arsenal

26:48 Bergkamp Magic and the Unbeaten Run

28:11 Relentless Run In

30:08 Old Trafford Turning Point

34:36 Title Clincher Everton

35:29 Adams and Bould Magic

38:40 Wenger Emotion Legacy

40:55 Cup Final Newcastle

45:05 World Cup Echoes

46:12 Changing English Football

51:27 Foreign Manager Boom

55:08 Wrap Up and Thanks

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Arsène Wenger series by tracing how David Dein first bonded with Wenger—via an improvised London dinner party and charades—before maintaining contact through Monaco, Antibes meetings, and mailed Arsenal VHS tapes and faxes. They cover Wenger’s post-Monaco move to Nagoya Grampus Eight, early struggles and a key interpreter change, then a turnaround to major success, which Wenger credits for reshaping his coaching and lifestyle ideas. The episode explains how Arsenal’s board eventually traveled to Japan in 1996 to recruit him amid post-Rioch chaos, public skepticism (“Arsène Who?”), and a club culture marked by drinking and addiction revelations. They discuss early dietary and training changes, Wenger retaining the famed back line, and his first signings—Vieira, Garde, and Anelka—plus the November 1996 rumour storm and Arsenal’s strong finish that set up the 1997-98 squad.

00:00 Charades With Wenger

00:34 Podcast Setup And Mystery Match

02:40 Arsenal As Gentlemen Club

05:09 Dinner Party First Impression

10:29 Arsene For Arsenal Premonition

11:35 Dein Keeps In Touch

15:05 Bayern Offer And Sacking

17:05 Japan Move And Early Struggles

20:23 Interpreter Switch Turning Point

23:27 Nagoya Success And Lessons

25:18 Secret Japan Courtship

26:20 Rioch Sacked Chaos

28:05 Arsene Who Backlash

33:09 Dressing Room Crisis

36:31 Broccoli Diet Revolution

41:42 Vieira Proves Them Wrong

43:32 Rumors Tabloid Mob

48:12 Anelka Arrival Momentum

51:22 Cool Britannia Parallels

55:05 Wrap Up Next Episode

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Arsène Wenger series by tracing his leap from youth coaching at Strasbourg to assistant work under Jean-Marc Guillet at Cannes, where his scouting and relentless workload stood out, before taking his first major job at Nancy with Aldo Platini as director. They discuss Wenger’s early innovations—psychologists, stretching, diet, massage and “invisible training”—and his severity, detail-obsession and frugality, alongside the loneliness and intensity he describes after defeats. Despite Nancy’s limited means and eventual relegation, Wenger earned the Monaco job in 1987, where the glamorous setting contrasted with his ascetic focus. With signings like Glenn Hoddle and Mark Hateley, he introduced advanced recovery and professionalism, won Ligue 1 in 1988, and later built teams featuring Claude Puel, while developing talents such as George Weah, Lilian Thuram and Emmanuel Petit, amid disillusionment about French football’s corruption.

00:00 Hoddle Meets Modern Training

00:47 Wenger Series Returns

01:37 Cannes Assistant Breakthrough

02:50 Motorway Scouting Story

04:08 Workaholic Coaching Routine

05:27 First Team Taste of Power

06:37 Nancy Job and Platini Link

08:03 Invisible Training Revolution

12:21 Youth Development and Frugality

15:09 Severity and Dark Obsession

19:49 Monaco Move and Glamour

23:23 Royals and Monaco Memories

25:46 Why Hoddle and Hateley Fit

26:54 Hateley Meets Wenger

27:46 Hoddle Hijacked From PSG

30:17 Training Revolution In Monaco

33:28 Beer Smoking And Culture Clash

34:46 Tactics And Touchline Temper

38:00 Monaco Glory And Marseille Shadow

43:17 Annie And Private Life

44:48 Weah Thuram Petit Talent Spotting

49:03 Highbury Encounter With Dein

52:31 Next Episode And Wrap

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper begin a four-part series marking 30 years since Arsène Wenger’s arrival at Arsenal, framing him—alongside David Dein—as a key catalyst for the Premier League’s shift toward foreign managers, multicultural squads, and modern nutrition and sports science. They trace Wenger’s roots in rural, war-scarred Alsace on the French-German border: his parents’ hard-working life, his father’s forced Nazi conscription, the Catholic village culture, and Wenger’s intense, self-aware obsession with football. The episode explores how he learned the game through unsupervised street football and bistro conversations, a serious illness at 14, and his desire to escape village life. Wenger’s breakthrough came at 19 after being spotted in a heavy defeat and joining Mutzig, leading to university studies in Strasbourg, a stint learning English in Cambridge, a squad role in Strasbourg’s 1979 title win, and an early move into coaching—already using a psychiatrist with youth players.

00:00 Wenger Obsession Intro

01:23 Why Wenger Changed England

03:41 Alsace War Shadow

07:30 Village Roots and Work Ethic

10:49 French Football Culture Explained

16:18 Street Football and Brother Guy

18:59 Faith Philosophy and Le Professor

24:32 Illness Growth and Escape

27:19 Bistro Lessons La Croix d'Or

28:53 Wine and Bistro Roots

29:37 Bar Talk and Escape

30:09 Football Dreams in Dittlingen

33:00 Mutzig Breakthrough

34:13 Max Hild Mentor

36:44 Dancing and Philosophy

39:55 University and Class Divide

42:10 Strasbourg Squad Years

43:29 Cambridge English Leap

46:47 Coaching Begins at Strasbourg

47:31 Total Football Influences

50:11 Holistic Coaching Mindset

51:30 Wrap Up and Next Episode

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Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson examine Kwame Nkrumah’s state-backed club Real Republicans and why it became widely unpopular despite winning trophies, after being created by taking top players from existing clubs without compensation and reinforcing regional and ethnic tensions, particularly in Ashanti. They track criticism in the Evening News and Ashanti Pioneer, Kotoko’s protests, and the club’s lack of public support even at its peak. The episode argues the project nonetheless helped the Black Stars by building cohesion, highlighted by a 3–3 draw with Real Madrid in 1962 and Ghana’s AFCON triumphs in 1963 and 1965 under C.K. Gyamfi, with key players drawn from Republicans. The discussion then links football to Nkrumah’s growing authoritarianism, economic strain from cocoa price swings, and his 1966 CIA-backed coup, after which Real Republicans were dissolved, while Ghana’s club and national successes continued briefly before declining with reduced state support.

00:00 Why Fans Reject Republicans

01:33 Nkrumah Builds a Model Club

05:09 Player Raids Spark Backlash

09:05 Trophies Without Love

16:32 Politics and Regional Resentment

21:34 Cocoa Prices and Ashanti Nationalism

25:41 Break and Reset

26:07 Golden Era for Black Stars

26:55 Real Madrid Draw and FIFA Fight

29:24 World Cup Qualifiers Reality Check

30:12 FIFA Spots Ghana

32:08 Real Republicans Core

33:18 Baba Yara Tragedy

34:00 1963 AFCON Triumph

36:03 Ethiopia Tangent

41:10 1965 AFCON Away Win

43:38 Ghana Legacy Debate

45:37 Nkrumah Turns Authoritarian

50:27 Coup Ends Era

51:37 Aftermath and Wrap

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Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson discuss how Kwame Nkrumah used football to build Ghana’s national identity and promote Pan-African unity after independence (1957) and becoming a republic (1960). They trace Ghana’s colonial background as the Gold Coast, Nkrumah’s education and political radicalization in London and the US, his leadership of the CPP, and the push to independence amid postwar unrest and cocoa blight riots. Nkrumah backed football as a tool for unity, sponsoring the Nkrumah Gold Cup and founding the African Club Championships (Osagyefo Cup), a precursor to today’s African Champions League. The episode then profiles Ghana star C.K. Gyamfi (“Magic Feet”), his rise through local clubs, a 1951 UK tour, and a breakthrough spell at Fortuna Düsseldorf in 1960 before returning to play for Ghana.

00:00 Nkrumah and Football Nationhood

03:04 Ghana Under Empire

04:53 Nkrumah Abroad and Ideas

06:38 London Debates and Mentors

12:33 Return and Rising Unrest

15:15 CPP and Road to Independence

18:43 Republic and Cult of Leader

20:05 Sport as National Unity

23:11 Pan African Tournaments Begin

25:30 Gold Cup Wins and Wider Wave

26:53 Osagyefo Cup Club Vision

27:13 Osagyefo Cup Origins

27:58 First African Club Final

28:17 Unity Through Football

30:01 Ghana Golden Era Focus

31:07 Meet CK Gyamfi

33:14 Early Life And Clubs

35:00 Mysterious Dwarves Tangent

38:41 Kotoko And UK Tour

41:55 Germany With Fortuna

48:06 Called Back To Ghana

49:31 Part One Wrap Up

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper conclude their three-part series on Kevin Keegan by tracing his managerial career and the idealism behind his “why not?” philosophy. They cover his post-playing retreat in Marbella, a 1991 roadside attack that sparked unfounded rumours, and his surprise return to rescue near-bankrupt Newcastle in 1992 despite having barely watched football. Keegan’s early chaos, promotion to the Premier League, and “entertainers” era are explored, including the Andy Cole sale and his famous address to angry fans. The episode revisits the 1995–96 title collapse, his exit amid Newcastle’s flotation plans, spells at Fulham and England, a steadier period at Manchester City, and a final, acrimonious Newcastle return under Mike Ashley, ending with reflections on his legacy and farewell tour.

00:00 Dreamers Welcome

01:39 Marbella Escape

02:49 Celebrity Golf Circuit

04:52 M25 Attack Rumors

08:10 Lightbulb Moment

09:34 Sir John Hall Calls

14:02 Return of the King

17:03 Unprepared New Boss

20:29 Great Escape Finale

22:13 Promotion Blueprint

24:53 Entertainers Era

26:32 Newcastle Goldfish Bowl

28:41 Keegan in the City

30:22 Keegan Tea Reception

32:14 Andy Cole Fallout

33:24 Calming The Mob

36:31 Title Charge Collapse

39:03 Shearer And Glory

41:43 Flotation Clash Exit

44:52 Fulham And England Call

47:24 Poisoned Chalice England

52:56 City Comeback Era

55:36 Third Newcastle Breakdown

58:54 Final Farewell Legacy

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Kevin Keegan series, following his 1977 move from Liverpool to Hamburg for a far higher salary and the difficult start marked by teammate resentment, managerial upheaval, a humiliating Super Cup loss at Anfield, and an eight-week ban after he struck a defender in a friendly at Lübeck. They chart his turnaround under Branko Zebec as Hamburg win the Bundesliga in 1978–79, Keegan becomes a German celebrity, learns the language, and wins the Ballon d’Or twice, before turning down Juventus and returning to England with an underwhelming Southampton spell and a breakdown with Lawrie McMenemy. The episode also covers Keegan’s burdened England captaincy amid missed World Cups, including a beating by Yugoslav police, threats in Belfast, Euro 1980, and injury-hit World Cup 1982, before his high-profile move to Second Division Newcastle, the lift he gives the city, and his retirement after a sobering FA Cup loss to Liverpool.

00:00 Keegan Cashes In

01:06 Hamburg Move Explained

01:39 The Bubble Perm Era

03:40 Frosty Dressing Room

06:36 Lübeck Punch Up

09:46 Backlash and Doubts

10:58 Turning Point Return

12:01 Zebec Sparks Revival

14:03 Pop Star in Germany

17:20 Ballon d'Or Debate

21:12 European Cup Heartbreak

23:14 Shock Southampton Switch

25:07 Saints Reality Check

27:22 Keegan Takes Criticism Personally

28:27 England Captain Burden

30:38 Poland Wembley Heartbreak

31:47 Belgrade Police Beating

34:20 Euro 1980 Chaos

35:38 Thatcher Photo Fallout

36:51 IRA Threats Belfast

40:28 World Cup 1982 Injury

43:50 Newcastle Homecoming Move

46:52 Robson Drops Keegan

49:31 Keegan Lifts Newcastle

55:12 Lawrenson Moment Retirement

55:54 Helicopter Farewell Wrap

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*The full three-part series is available on Patreon now*

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pay tribute to Kevin Keegan, who died in July aged 75, reflecting on his rare charisma, self-awareness, and ability to connect with people, as well as his status as the only British player to win the Ballon d’Or twice. They trace his working-class upbringing in Armthorpe near Doncaster, his family’s mining and Labour roots, and formative influences like Sister Mary Oliver, who encouraged his football. The episode follows Keegan’s unlikely early path—rejected by Doncaster and Coventry, starting at Scunthorpe—through his move to Liverpool under Bill Shankly, where his fitness, motivation, and partnership with John Toshack helped drive major success, alongside growing fame via endorsements and Superstars. They end with Keegan’s decision to leave as Liverpool approach European glory.

00:00 Tribute to Keegan

01:09 Charisma and Kindness

06:19 Roots in Doncaster

09:14 Mining Heritage

15:22 School and Sweetheart

22:21 Rejected Then Spotted

24:28 Scunthorpe Breakthrough

28:18 Move to Liverpool

30:03 Negotiating His Worth

33:34 Late Arrival Debut

35:22 Toshack Partnership

35:47 Sweat Box Fitness

37:10 Telepathy Test Hoax

40:12 Shankly Mind Games

41:46 Celebrity Endorsements

47:26 Superstars Bike Crash

49:48 Trophies And Turning Point

54:44 Shankly Leaves Fallout

57:34 European Peak Exit Plan

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The fourth and final episode in Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper's Total Football series explores Ajax’s remarkable success under Stefan Kovacs and the Netherlands’ unforgettable 1974 World Cup campaign.

Kovacs inherited Rinus Michels’ European champions but allowed the side’s fluid, player-led style to evolve. Ajax continued to win major honours, including two European Cups, but growing player power and Johan Cruyff’s influence created tensions beneath the success. As internal divisions deepened, Kovacs left, Cruyff departed for Barcelona, and Ajax’s golden era began to unravel.

Enter the 1974 World Cup. Despite a difficult qualification process and a squad shaped by rivalries, Michels and Cruyff assembled a side that thrilled the world. They swept past Argentina, overcame Brazil in a fiercely contested encounter, and brought Total Football to its global peak.

But in the final against hosts West Germany, an early lead was not enough. Off-pitch distractions, overconfidence and German resilience contributed to a famous 2–1 defeat.

The Dutch did not lift the World Cup, but their legacy was greater than a single trophy: Total Football transformed how the modern game is played.

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In part three of our Total Football series, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper arrive at Ajax’s golden age.

They explore Johan Cruyff’s development: the precocious teenager shaped by Ajax, Vic Buckingham and Rinus Michels; a player whose extraordinary understanding of space, timing and tactics made him the ultimate expression of individuality within a system.

The episode unpicks how Ajax’s 4-3-3 worked in practice. Positional rotations, an aggressive offside trap, collective pressing and the instinctive relationships built through years of playing together.

Jonathan also examines the uncomfortable questions around fitness, sports science and alleged stimulant use in the era, before charting Ajax’s first European Cup triumph in 1971 and the arrival of Ștefan Kovács after Michels’ departure for Barcelona.

This is the story of how a brilliant group of players, led by Cruyff, turned a tactical idea into the most influential team in European football.

You can listen to all the Total Football episodes early right now, here on Patreon. Enjoy.

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*You can listen to the full episode on our Patreon*

Rob Draper hosts a bonus edition of It Was What It Was with Jamie Carragher stepping in to pay tribute to the late great Franco Baresi .

Carragher explains why Baresi’s name is passed down through generations, calls him the greatest defender he’s ever seen, and hails Sacchi’s AC Milan as the greatest team until Guardiola’s Barcelona, with Baresi and Maldini central to a back four that revolutionised modern football through pressing, a high line and the shift away from the sweeper system.

They discuss Baresi’s unique blend of sweeper elegance and aggressive defending in a back four, his extraordinary return from a knee injury for the 1994 World Cup final against Romario, and how his football brain overcame a lack of height. Carragher also shares meeting Baresi at a Milan derby and showing his signed Baresi shirts.

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In part two of our Total Football series, Jonathan and Rob explore the ideas behind football’s great tactical revolution.

From the structuralist architecture and social change of 1960s Amsterdam to Johan Cruyff’s place within a collective system, they trace how a new way of thinking shaped the Dutch game.

But it's not all Ajax. Focus shifts to Rotterdam and Feyenoord: Ernst Happel’s 4-3-3, their landmark 1970 European Cup win, and the overlooked tactical breakthrough that helped pave the way for Ajax and Cruyff.

Want to listen to the whole Total Football series now? Sign up to our Patreon for full access.

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In the first episode of a new four-part series, Jonathan and Rob examine the origins of Total Football - and why it is far more than simply slick passing or players swapping positions.

They explore the overlooked influence of English coach Vic Buckingham at Ajax, the role of Rinus Michels in shaping the philosophy, and the tactical shift from individual battles to coordinated systems.

There's why Dutch football’s late professionalisation made it a laboratory for new ideas; how advances in fitness made pressing possible; and why similar thinking was developing simultaneously in Soviet football under Valeriy Lobanovskyi.

This is the story of the conditions that made Total Football possible - before Johan Cruyff became its greatest expression.

Rob and Jonathan will be back next week for part two. Sign up to our Patreon to get early-access to every episode right now.

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Jordi Cruyff for the first episode in a new series on Total Football: its origins, its legacy, and one of its key architects, Johan Cruyff.

Who better than Jordi to reflect on his father's footballing influences and legacy? Beginning with his upbringing in Amsterdam, the hardship that shaped his ambition, and the profound influence of Rinus Michels on his development, Jordi also shares personal insight into Johan’s personality: stubborn, curious, challenging and, of course, never afraid to go against the grain.

The conversation explores Cruyff’s football philosophy in detail - his attacking mindset, positional ideas, emphasis on angles and intelligence, and refusal to compromise on style. Jordi also retells the story of being named Jordi in Franco-era Spain, a moment that captured his father’s defiant spirit and deep connection with Catalonia.

Rob, Jonathan and Jordi look at Johan’s transformational impact on Barcelona, the 1992 European Cup, his influence on Pep Guardiola, and how Cruyff’s ideas continue to shape elite football - from La Masia to the modern Premier League.

Rob and Jonathan will be back next week for a dive into the origins of Total Football itself; the first in a new four-part series. Sign up to our Patreon to get early-access to every episode.

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In World Cup final week, we just had to ask Jonathan and Rob to decide on the best World Cup finals of all time - and they certainly delivered.

From Uruguay in 1930 to Qatar in 2022, there's no better way to whet your appetite for Sunday evening than by taking a trip down memory lane with the guys.

From the drama of that very first final in 1930, to the political tension and selection intrigue of Hungary’s defeat to Italy in 1938, they trace how the World Cup final quickly became a stage for far more than just football.

Along the way they revisit the heartbreak of the 1950 Maracanazo, the tactical and cultural significance of West Germany’s win over the Netherlands in 1974, and the extraordinary scale of the 1954 Miracle of Bern, when Hungary’s great side were denied by West Germany. They also reflect on the modern classic of Argentina v France in 2022.

Will we have another classic on our hands in 2026?

00:00 Uruguay 4–2 Argentina (1930)

17:45 West Germany 2–1 Netherlands (1974)

30:15 Uruguay 2–1 Brazil (1950)

40:55 Italy 4–2 Hungary (1938)

47:50 Argentina 3–3 France (2022)

54:55 West Germany 3–2 Hungary (1954)

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pick their favourite World Cup quarterfinals while previewing the upcoming last-eight: Portugal’s 5–3 comeback against North Korea at Goodison Park in 1966, highlighting Eusébio’s peak display, disputed refereeing, and the enduring Middlesbrough bond with the North Korean team; Germany–Argentina in 2006 as a pivotal step in Klinsmann’s cultural and tactical reset with Löw, Lehmann’s sock note in the shootout, and debate over Pekerman’s substitutions; and Argentina–Netherlands in 2022, remembered amid Grant Wahl’s death, for Messi’s pass, a record 18 yellows, a late Weghorst equaliser from a worked free kick, and a combustible shootout and aftermath. Wilson also covers Italy–Spain in 1934 as Mussolini’s World Cup’s key test and Draper adds Italy–Brazil 1982 and France–Brazil 1986 as defining classics.

00:00 Quarterfinal Classics Setup

00:47 Portugal vs North Korea 1966

03:40 Goodison Shock and Comeback

08:32 Eusebio Takes Over

10:10 Legacy and Middlesbrough Bond

16:19 Germany vs Argentina 2006

17:20 Klinsmann Revolution Explained

23:27 Match Drama and Lehmann Note

26:11 Argentina vs Netherlands 2022

30:33 Battle of Lusail Chaos

34:48 Penalties And Tragedy

36:04 Mussolini World Cup Clash

41:41 Replay And Brutality

42:58 England Debate Sunderland Joke

44:43 Rossi Sinks Brazil 1982

49:50 Romance Dies Guardiola Inspired

51:57 France Brazil 1986 Classic

57:43 Shootout Controversy Carlos Story

01:00:31 Legacy And Wrap Up

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Throughout the World Cup Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are recording weekly live Q&As, exclusively for our Patreon subscribers.

This week, all eyes were on England's win over DR Congo, sparking a debate on their reliance on Harry Kane. A worry, or a strength? There's a look at Marcelo Bielsa's Uruguay, a debate on what's happened to Germany, and so much more in this week's World Cup mailbag.

Want in? Then all you need to do is head over to www.patreon.com/ItWas and sign up for £4.99 a month. That'll get you access to Rob and Jonathan's live Q&As and a whole host of bonus content, including:

Sign up today to hear the full episode - and we'll see you on Patreon. Thanks for listening!

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To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson conclude their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win, picking up from the semi-final against Portugal and Eusébio, where Alf Ramsey sticks with Geoff Hurst over the media-favoured Jimmy Greaves and England’s wingless 4-1-3-2 thrives, with Bobby Charlton scoring twice and Jack Charlton’s handball leading to a late penalty. They then set up the final against West Germany, including Ramsey’s instruction for Charlton to sit deeper and nullify Franz Beckenbauer, before revisiting a disjointed 4–2 match shaped by England’s direct play, West Germany’s controversial equaliser, Hurst’s debated goal off the bar, and his hat-trick. The episode also explores Ramsey’s vindication, England’s fitness and planning, and the broader cultural context of Swinging London, post-imperial Britain, and the night of celebrations after victory.

00:00 Doubting Ramsey

00:23 Series Setup

01:04 Semifinal Stakes

02:07 Bobby Charlton Anxiety

05:13 Greaves Or Hurst

07:12 Wingless Wonders Win

08:57 Charlton Double

11:44 Penalty Scare

12:50 Charlton Family Duty

14:53 1966 Life Off Pitch

17:47 Cinema And Trauma

20:13 Final Plan Mark Beckenbauer

22:20 Final Rewatch Context

24:03 Targeting Tilkowski

25:07 Final Goals Breakdown

26:26 German Equaliser Debate

28:13 Ramsey Team Talk Myth

29:26 Ramsey Mind Games

30:08 Fitness Wins Extra Time

30:34 Was It Over The Line

32:52 Pitch Invaders Fourth Goal

33:48 Hurst Becomes Immortal

35:01 Planning Versus Flair

36:52 Ramsey Vindicated

40:19 War Memory And Germany

43:05 Swinging London Soundtrack

45:19 Post Imperial Cool Britannia

50:48 Football Enters Mainstream

54:07 Night Of Celebration

57:05 Legacy And Farewell

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To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their series on how England won the 1966 World Cup by focusing on the quarter-final against Argentina, presented as the tournament’s key and most controversial test. They explain Alf Ramsey’s tactical preparation, including hiding his 4-1-3-2 “wingless” system and replacing the injured Jimmy Greaves with the more aerially suited Geoff Hurst. The episode traces Ramsey’s lessons from England’s 1964 South American trip, where Argentina’s pragmatic defensive approach and man-marking shaped his thinking, then sets the fraught 1966 backdrop: referee paranoia, Argentina’s internal chaos and recent coup, and a Wembley training dispute caused by greyhound racing. They dissect Antonio Rattín’s baffling dismissal amid language barriers and unclear bookings, the ugly atmosphere, and England’s 1–0 win through Hurst, before covering the aftermath, including Ramsey’s “animals” remark, protests, bans, fines, and Argentina’s defiant homecoming.

00:00 Setting Up England Argentina

01:23 Ramsey Hides Wingless Wonders

03:16 Hurst Replaces Greaves

05:11 Mundialito Lessons In Brazil

09:47 Argentina Pragmatism And Press Reaction

15:43 Referee Paranoia And FIFA Politics

19:14 Argentina Chaos Before Wembley

22:40 Greyhound Racing And Pre Match Tension

26:32 Match Begins And Footage Limits

29:37 Rattin Booking Sparks Flashpoint

33:57 Booking Confusion Builds

35:06 Rattin Sent Off Mystery

38:40 Interpreter Myth Explained

41:53 Aero Bars and Union Jack

45:25 Who Was Actually Booked

46:06 Press Fury and Fix Claims

51:56 Ten Men Battle On

56:01 England Finally Break Through

57:18 Animals Comment Fallout

01:03:17 Bans Fines and Aftermath

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To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win by tracing how Alf Ramsey’s team took shape amid low expectations and press criticism after a 3–2 Wembley loss to Austria. They discuss doubts over the 4-2-4, Bobby Charlton’s role, and growing concerns about Jimmy Greaves’ form, before key friendlies reveal Ramsey’s “wingless wonders” approach: a 4-1-3-2/4-3-3 hybrid showcased in Spain and then unveiled dramatically in Poland with the surprise inclusion of Martin Peters. At the World Cup, Ramsey initially reverts to wingers, drawing 0–0 with Uruguay, then beating Mexico 2–0 via a standout Bobby Charlton strike and France 2–0 with Roger Hunt’s goals. Two shadows emerge: Nobby Stiles’ violent conduct against France and Greaves’ shin injury that rules him out of the quarterfinal, opening the door for Geoff Hurst.

00:00 England Written Off

01:48 Austria Defeat Fallout

04:17 Ramsey Rethinks Tactics

07:47 Greaves Under Scrutiny

10:24 Spain Reveals Wingless Plan

15:08 Poland Test and Peters Shock

20:43 Hiding the System

22:21 World Cup Opener Uruguay

25:49 Uruguay Stalemate Fallout

26:49 Meet J L Manning

28:58 Tactics Jargon Backlash

32:24 Mexico Magic Moment

33:15 Charlton Screamer Breakdown

36:18 France Win And Rotation

39:04 Stiles Controversy And FA Row

42:36 Greaves Injury Hurst Opportunity

44:50 Greaves Debate Luxury Player

50:05 Next Episode And Patreon Plug

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To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson begin a four-part series revisiting England’s 1966 World Cup win by focusing on Sir Alf Ramsey’s background and the conservative England setup he inherited, including the FA selection committee and a poor early World Cup record. They argue Ramsey, often caricatured as dour, was socially conservative and xenophobic but tactically radical, demanding control of selection and modernizing England with a system-focused approach influenced by his Ipswich success, zonal marking, and experiments that questioned traditional wingers. They discuss his reserved personality, class and heritage issues, a reported instance of backing a player convicted of gross indecency, and why blaming 1966 for later English insularity is misguided. Ramsey’s early England results are mixed, but a 1964 Brazil trip helps crystallize his shift away from 4-2-4, and by April 1965 the emerging core includes Banks, Moore, Jack Charlton, and Nobby Stiles.

00:00 Meet Alf Ramsey

01:49 Ipswich Miracle Title

03:28 Ending Selection Committees

05:20 England World Cup Woes

06:50 Dour Yet Radical

09:23 Xenophobia And Origins

14:14 Was 1966 A Curse

17:28 Ramsey Playing Roots

20:36 Ipswich Tactical Experiments

24:38 Brutalism And Football

27:27 Brutalism Meets Football

31:21 Ramsey Blueprint Emerges

33:02 First Camp Shock Therapy

36:43 Early Results and Doubts

40:05 Brazil Trip Reality Check

40:43 Curfew Crackdown

46:16 Tactics Shift and New Spine

47:51 Jack Charlton and Stiles Debut

53:19 Foundations of 1966

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Tim Vickery to discuss the extraordinary story of Brazil at the World Cup.

From the ultra-nationalism and hysteria of 1938, to the trauma of the Maracanazo in 1950, and the glorious Pelé years that forged a nation's identity between 1958 and 1970. Vickery traces every Brazilian World Cup campaign.

Drawing on his new book Mundiales, Vickery offers a uniquely South American perspective on how the beautiful game's most celebrated nation has wrestled with myth, race, politics, and tactical evolution across nearly a century of football.

With the 2026 World Cup on the horizon and Carlo Ancelotti now at the helm, can Brazil rediscover their identity, or has the ghost of 1970 become an impossible standard?

00:00 Introduction — Tim Vickery Joins from Rio

06:30 The Myth of Samba Football

13:00 1938, Radio, and Tropical Nationalism

19:30 1950, The Maracanazo and a Nation's Trauma

27:00 1954, The Battle of Bern and Revenge Football

31:30 1958, Meticulous Planning, Pelé, and Redemption

37:20 The Post-1970 Identity Crisis

41:00 1982, Failure and a Lost Midfield Art

47:00 The Domestic Decline of Brazilian Coaching

49:30 Qatar 2022, Were Brazil Really That Far Off?

52:00 Carlo Ancelotti and the 2026 World Cup

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pick their six greatest European Cup and Champions League finals of all time.

From the 127,000 who stayed to applaud Real Madrid's 7-3 demolition of Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960, to Ajax passing Juventus into submission in 1973 and Pep Guardiola's Barcelona spearheaded by Xavi flying to the title at Wembley in 2011. 

Wilson and Draper trace the tactical revolutions, romantic triumphs, and spectacular collapses that defined European football's greatest competition. 

With Arsenal facing PSG in this week's Champions League final, will Mikel Arteta join the elite list of managers who have won Europes’s elite competition or will Luis Enrique go back to back with PSG?

00:00 Introduction — Champions League Final Week

06:30 Real Madrid 7-3 Eintracht Frankfurt (1960)

19:20 Ajax 1-0 Juventus (1973)

34:50 AC Milan 4-0 Barcelona (1994) 

42:15 Celtic 2-1 Inter Milan (1967) 

53:40 Barcelona 3-1 Manchester United (2011) 

58:10 Benfica 5-3 Real Madrid (1962) 

01:03:20 Why Not 1999 or 2005? — And Can PSG Become an All-Time Great?

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Listen to the Full Episode on the IWWIW Patreon here...

In this Patreon special of It Was What It Was, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper speak with Jonathan Northcroft about the updated paperback edition of their Gareth Southgate book, retitled Inside England, which adds four new chapters. They discuss Southgate’s cultural reset, including the Royal Marines camp at Lympstone, and trace the deeper roots of England’s revival through reforms such as EPPP and England DNA, alongside figures like Dan Ashworth, Dave Redding, Trevor Brooking and Greg Dyke’s 2022 World Cup target. They cover how improved youth development, psychology and data-led penalty preparation helped transform England into a resilient tournament team, before assessing Euro 2024’s tactical problems and the FA’s decision to appoint Thomas Tuchel for “wow factor” and elite coaching. They end by weighing concerns about recent friendlies, squad management and camp culture heading into the World Cup.

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Michael Grant, Scottish football correspondent for The Times and author of Fergie Rises,to tell the story of how a young Alex Ferguson shattered the Old Firm duopoly and transformed Aberdeen into serial winners.

This Episode was recorded before the dramatic showdown on the final day of the SPL season between Celtic and Hearts, but was this just the start of the Hearts story? Will they continue threatening to break the Rangers-Celtic stranglehold for years to come? Wilson, Draper and Grant trace the remarkable parallels with Ferguson's Aberdeen revolution. They explore how a brash 36-year-old manager, fresh from a humiliating tribunal after being sacked by St Mirren, walked into a club that had nearly been relegated two years earlier and forged a dynasty. Along the way, they examine the clashes on the pitch, the psychological scars of Fergie's playing days, the infamous post-cup final rant that still hurts his players 40 years on. Michael Grant reveals the man behind the myth... volatile, funny, manipulative, and utterly relentless.

00:00 Introduction — Hearts, the Old Firm, and Why Fergie Matters Now

06:30 Aberdeen Before Ferguson — Nearly Relegated

12:45 The St Mirren Sacking and the Tribunal

19:20 The Westhill Willy Biters

27:10 Willie Miller and the Power Struggle

34:50 Breaking the Old Firm's Psychological Hold

42:15 Winning the League — 5-0 at Easter Road

48:00 Knocking on Fergie's Door at 3am

53:40 The Liverpool Humiliation

58:10 Fergie's Fury — The Morning After Anfield

01:03:20 Youth Development and Building a Dynasty

01:09:00 The Infamous 1983 Cup Final Rant

01:14:30 Why the Old Firm Were Vulnerable — and can Hearts Can Do It Again?

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the remarkable story of Bert Trautmann — the former Nazi paratrooper who became Manchester City's beloved goalkeeper and an unlikely symbol of Anglo-German reconciliation. 70 years on from the legendary 1956 FA Cup final, Wilson and Draper trace Trautmann's extraordinary journey: from Hitler Youth member and fighting on the Eastern Front, to prisoner of war in England, to the man who played on with a broken neck at Wembley. They examine his teenage indoctrination, the atrocity he witnessed, that shattered his faith in Nazism and the 25,000 protesters at Maine Road. Along the way, they explore the brutal treatment of goalkeepers in this era and how three successive cup final incidents began to change the game's laws. Finally, they reflect on how a flawed, charismatic man became the perfect bridge between two nations.

00:00 Jimmy Ashcroft and the Goalkeeper's Lot

06:30 Hitler Youth — Trautmann's Indoctrination

12:45 The Eastern Front

19:20 Witnessing the SS Massacre

25:00 Captured Three Times — Soviets, Americans, and a Cup of Tea

27:10 Prisoner of War and the Accidental Goalkeeper

34:50 Staying in England

42:15 25,000 Protesters

48:00 Winning Over Manchester

53:40 The 1956 FA Cup Final — Playing On with a Broken Neck

58:10 The Dangerous Life of the Goalkeeper

01:03:20 Footballer of the Year and Personal Tragedy

01:09:00 Burma, Women's Football, and an OBE

01:14:30 The Perfect Symbol of Reconciliation

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper revisit the 1995-96 Premier League season. 30 years on from one of the great title races. They trace Manchester United's unlikely triumph, beginning with the summer meltdown that saw Ince, Hughes, and Kanchelskis all depart, the infamous opening-day defeat to Aston Villa, and Alan Hansen's immortal verdict. From Cantona's Paris crisis and Ferguson's diplomatic dinner to Newcastle's flying start and that seemingly insurmountable 12-point lead, Wilson and Draper unpick every twist. They examine Schmeichel's heroics in the pivotal March showdown at St James' Park, the Tino Asprilla effect, the curse of the grey shirts at The Dell, and finally the extraordinary moment Kevin Keegan lost his composure on live television.

00:00 Alan Hansen Sets the Scene

06:30 The Summer Meltdown — Ince, Hughes, Kanchelskis

12:45 Class of '92 and the Aston Villa Opener

19:20 Cantona's Paris Crisis and Ferguson's Rescue Mission

27:10 Newcastle's Flying Start and the 12-Point Lead

34:50 The March Showdown at St James' Park

42:15 Tino Asprilla and the Rodney Marsh Debate

48:00 Liverpool 4, Newcastle 3 — The Moment It Turned

53:40 The Grey Shirts and the Southampton Collapse

58:10 The Mind Games Begin

01:03:20 Keegan's Meltdown — "I Will Love It"

01:09:00 United Win the League and the Double

01:14:30 Why This Season Made the Premier League

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week’s episode, co-hosts Jonthan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Sports Journalist and author Jonathan Northcroft to take a look 10 years on from that extraordinary and famous Premier League win! They frame the story around key pivot points, including the Valentine’s Day defeat at Arsenal and the self-belief it sparked, plus Ranieri’s unexpected decision to still grant the squad a holiday. Northcroft traces the longer build-up through the 2013 Watford play-off heartbreak, Nigel Pearson’s cross-department reset, the 2014 Championship-winning platform (and the later FFP breach), and the club’s smart recruitment and early data use that delivered players like Kanté, Mahrez and Okazaki. They cover Pearson’s departure after off-field incidents, the scepticism around Ranieri’s appointment, his “dilly ding” media touch, rivals’ crises, standout wins over Liverpool and Manchester City, Spurs’ chase, and the city’s all-in celebrations as the miracle became real.

06:35 Origins of the Build

10:39 FFP and the Promotion Debate

11:35 Recruitment and Data Edge

17:36 Kante and Mahrez Backstories

22:22 Pearson Great Escape and Exit

26:10 Ranieri Arrives Against the Odds

27:46 Dilly Ding and Pizza Psychology

35:24 Chelsea Chaos Unravels

41:42 Big Clubs in Crisis

45:02 Vardy Volley and City Statement

47:37 Leicester Media Frenzy

53:30 Spurs Pressure and Title Night

59:19 Leicester Celebrates as One

01:04:30 Bonkers Finale

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was the football history podcast. In today’s episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring this Graham Taylor series to a close with the Oslo qualifier that defined his reign: a chaotic, tactically muddled 2–0 loss to Norway at the peak of their ‘golden age’, captured in painful detail by The Impossible Job. Unpacking Taylor’s mounting stress, tabloid caricature and “no‑win” selection calls—especially the dilemma of persisting with an undercooked Paul Gascoigne—before explaining how the back-three plan collapsed, England’s structure unravelled, and Norway’s alertness (including a quick free kick) punished them. The episode breaks down England’s chaotic structure, Norway’s tactical calm under Egil “Drillo” Olsen, and Taylor’s famous touchline outbursts, before tracing the fallout: “Norse Manure” headlines, concerns the players had stopped responding, and a demoralising US tour. England briefly revive by beating Poland, but lose in Rotterdam and, despite winning 7–1 in San Marino after conceding almost instantly, miss out as the Netherlands win in Poland. They assess Taylor’s broader legacy, his misfortune with timing and player form, and his later rehabilitation at Watford.

01:51 Norway’s Golden Generation

04:51 Tabloid Mockery Era

06:11 Psychology and Pressure

08:18 The Gaza Fitness Dilemma

18:30 Paranoia and Tactical Switch

22:50 System Collapse in Oslo

25:57 Quick Free Kick Nightmare

29:41 Norway Strike Again

30:32 Tabloid Backlash

32:07 Tactics And Trust

35:18 Bigger Picture Failings

42:56 USA Tour Fallout

43:49 Last Chance Qualifiers

45:36 San Marino Shock

48:28 Reassessing the Taylor Legacy

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was. In today's episode, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue Graham Taylor’s England story as the 1994 World Cup qualifying begins to wobble, with Paul Gascoigne’s talent and volatility dominating the narrative. They examine how Taylor’s pragmatic, direct style—shaped by lower-league realities and later linked (often unfairly) to FA long-ball doctrine—collided with more technical European approaches, and how internal battles involving Charles Hughes and data pioneer Charles Reap poisoned the backdrop. England’s campaign lurches through a Norway draw at Wembley after a late stunner, a Gascoigne-inspired win over Turkey, and a damaging 2–2 draw with the Netherlands featuring an undetected elbow and a late penalty. With Gascoigne returning in a mask, England then stumble in a hostile Poland away match and escape with a late equaliser, before Taylor’s brutal “headless chickens” verdict leaves his team heading to Oslo under growing pressure.

00:24 Setting the Scene

03:08 Taylor’s Pragmatic Roots

06:50 Pressing vs Possession

10:04 Charles Hughes and the Winning Formula

13:55 Reap vs Hughes Fallout

19:31 Norway’s Long Ball Irony

21:59 Back to Qualifying Hopes

24:10 Gazza’s Norway Controversy

26:50 Taylor’s Gaza Dilemma

28:22 Norway Opener Heartbreak

30:53 Turkey Win and Dependence

32:53 Too Honest With Press

40:12 Dutch Clash at Wembley

44:13 Mask Return and Mania

45:52 Poland Chaos and Critique

49:03 Headless Chickens Finale

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue on from last week’s episode with Jan Fjortoft to delve into how things went wrong for Graham Taylor during his time as England manager. In this first part of a three part series on Graham Taylor (following our episode with Fjortoft) we take a look at the high of Italia ’90 to the early warning signs of Graham Taylor’s troubled England reign, setting up the wider story of his eventual downfall. Central to the episode is Paul Gascoigne’s rise into “Gaza mania,” the off-field chaos and disciplinary problems that followed, including the 1991 FA Cup final knee rupture and subsequent setbacks. Taylor struggled to manage both the player and the circus around him. England qualified for Euro 1992 but drew twice, lost to Sweden and Taylor’s substitution of Gary Lineker became emblematic as tabloid ridicule culminate in a reputational collapse for Taylor.

01:05 The Impossible Job Era

07:39 Referees And Rotterdam

12:47 Italia 90 Reality Check

20:02 Gaza Mania Begins

25:31 Euro Qualifiers Begin

28:24 Ireland Away Selection

30:08 Taylor Press Tightrope

35:48 Cup Final Knee Rupture

41:46 Euro 92 Sweden Turning Point

42:55 Lineker Sub Controversy

47:50 Fitness Gap And Refuelling

49:32 Turnip Taylor Tabloid Sting

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by a very special returning guest - Jan Fjørtoft! In this episode, we will explore Norway’s remarkable rise in the early 1990s and their famous 2–0 win over Graham Taylor’s England in 1993. Fjørtoft explains how Egil “Drillo” Olsen took a previously struggling national team and built belief through a disciplined, direct style, carefully defined roles, and detailed match analysis using hand-written stats and video. The episode breaks down the key tactical choices that unsettled England, revisits both Norway goals, and follows the qualifier run that took Norway to their first World Cup since 1938. Norway will return to the World Cup this summer for the first time since 1998. This episode will be followed by a three part special on Graham Taylor.

01:12 Norway before the rise

04:09 Olsen arrives and stirs

06:47 Direct football philosophy

14:31 Stats and analysis

20:05 Defined roles and system

23:40 Beating England 

28:12 Tactical switch 

31:33 Gascoigne fitness factor

32:50 Olsen’s Selection Mind Games

37:20 Two Goals Breakdown

42:41 Road to USA 94 Sealed

45:45 Poland Night and Wild Celebrations

48:46 Heroes Welcome in Norway

52:04 World Cup Heat Prep Fiasco

59:59 Egil Olsen Legacy

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Today, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take you back to the 1966 FIFA World Cup.

On home soil in England, the hosts claimed their first and only World Cup title. Captain Bobby Moore marshalled the side with composure, while Geoff Hurst rose to immortality with a historic hat-trick in the final. England’s triumph, sealed in a dramatic victory over West Germany, remains one of the most iconic moments in football history and the nations greatest footballing day.

You can listen to the full episode on Patreon, along with the below privileges:

BONUS EDITIONS

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

WORLD CUP WEDNESDAYS!

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTION

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHAN

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITY

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

What’s included

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by an extraudinary guest - Clyde Best. An absolute pioneer to the game, born in Bermuda, Clyde would become one of the first black players in First Division football in England. His new film, ‘Transforming the Beautiful Game: The Clyde Best Story’ will be shown for a week at Sadler’s Wells East from 25th March.

In this episode, Clyde recounts arriving in England as a teenager, getting lost at West Ham station and being taken in by the Charles family. He reflects on his rise at West Ham, getting his debut against Arsenal under Ron Greenwood in 1969 and playing alongside the likes of Bobby Moore, Geoff Hurst and Martin Peters. Clyde talks of the his Bermuda upbringing, national team breakthrough and the influence that his father had on him. Best reflects on being one of the first prominent black players in English football, enduring racist abuse and an acid-attack threat and playing against Pelé. He also discusses NASL moves to Tampa Bay and Portland Timbers and the inspiration he provided players such as Ian Wright.

01:29 Lost at Heathrow

03:23 The Charles Family

06:59 Bermuda Beginnings

10:20 West Ham Dream

13:20 Ron Greenwood Impact

15:22 Fast Track Debut

18:35 Breaking Barriers

24:06 Facing Racism

31:03 Scoring Against Pelé

35:20 Leaving West Ham for the NASL

37:17 American Soccer Showmanship

43:01 Legacy as a Pioneer

46:57 Honorary Doctorate

49:44 His love for West Ham

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this final part three of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the story of the 1994 World Cup and its devastating aftermath. This episode explores the immense and impossible pressure placed on the Colombian squad, from death threats delivered to hotel room TVs, to the chaos of a nation in civil war pinning all its hopes on eleven men. The discussion covers the Romania defeat, the fateful own goal against the USA, and the senseless murder of Andrés Escobar outside a nightclub. Rob and Jonathan also examine the legacy of Escobar 'the gentleman of football' and his remarkable fiancée Pamela Cascada, before reflecting on Colombia's long road to recovery and redemption.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:00 Andrés Escobar's Posthumous Column in El Tiempo

01:55 Setting the Scene: The Narco State & Pablo Escobar's Death

06:55 Pablo Escobar's Deep Love of Football

10:55 Francisco Maturana on the Narcos: "Like an Octopus"

16:30 Andrés Escobar: El Caballero del Fútbol

20:25 A Move to AC Milan & The Burden of Representing Colombia

23:30 Higuita's Exclusion & The President's Calculations

26:00 The Romania Defeat: Hagi's Moment of Magic

27:45 Death Threats, Kidnappings & Maturana in Tears

33:00 The USA Game: Playing Under the Shadow of Snipers

35:30 The Own Goal & Colombia's Elimination

37:15 The Murder of Andrés Escobar

41:00 Who Killed Escobar? The Galón Brothers & the Cover-Up

44:45 The State Funeral & Pamela Cascada's Dignity

48:15 The Aftermath: Colombia's Slow Road to Redemption

51:45 2014 & The Restoration of Colombian Football Pride

54:15 Closing Thoughts

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In this sneak peek to a bonus episode of It Was What It Was on Patreon, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Professor Matthew Brown (University of Bristol) to deepen the series on Andrés Escobar by tracing how Colombian history, political violence and the drug economy intersect with football. Brown rejects Gabriel García Márquez’s claim that three events defined 20th-century Colombia, while explaining why the 5–0 win over Argentina in 1993 became a tipping point for football as a national identity marker. The discussion covers football’s emergence alongside other sporting cultures, the role of sport after the 1948 Bogotazo and during La Violencia, and Colombia’s later shift into guerrilla conflict and cocaine trafficking. They explore cartel money’s social and sporting influence, the effects of Pablo Escobar’s death and subsequent violence, the symbolic damage of Colombia’s 1994 World Cup collapse, Copa América 2001, and how the 2014 team helped build trust during negotiations leading to the 2016 peace deal, while noting ongoing violence tied to the illegal drug trade.

You can listen to the full episode on Patreon

On Tuesday, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson return to round off the Colombia series and bring that story to a close.

On Wednesday, on Patreon only, the co-hosts continue the World Cup countdown series with an episode on the 1962 World Cup in Chile, looking back at the tournament and some of its key moments.

Then on Friday, also on Patreon only, we look back at when Northern Ireland faced Italy in the 1958 World Cup qualifiers. With Northern Ireland preparing for their 2026 World Cup play-off semi-final against Italy, Rob and Jonathan revisit the meeting where Northern Ireland qualified for their first World Cup and discuss the background to Ireland’s football split in the 1950s.

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part two of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dissect one of the greatest World Cup qualifying matches ever played: Colombia's stunning 5-0 victory over Argentina at El Monumental in Buenos Aires. This episode explores the dramatic buildup to the match, the hostile reception faced by the Colombian team, and the extraordinary performance that shocked the football world. The discussion then examines the dangerous euphoria that followed, as Colombia began to believe that they could win the 1994 World Cup, and the dark realities of the narco state.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:39 Colombia's Mindset Before the Match & The Hostile Reception

04:07 The Lineup: Colombia vs Argentina at El Monumental

11:25 The Match Begins: Early Tension & Argentina's Miss

14:05 The Plane Incident: A Bizarre Moment at El Monumental

16:01 GOAL: Rincón Opens the Scoring 

17:26 Maturana's Psychological Tactics at Half Time

18:05 GOAL: Asprilla Makes It 2-0

18:47 GOAL: Valencia Volleys In the Third

19:56 GOAL: Asprilla's Exquisite Curler Makes It 4-0

21:00 GOAL: Valencia Completes the Rout - 5-0

22:14 The Monumental Applauds Colombia Off the Pitch

24:32 The Celebrations: 100 Deaths & National Hysteria

30:55 "Now We're F***ed": The Burden of Expectation

33:19 World Champions Before the Tournament Begins

39:25 21 Friendlies & The Cash Grab

44:51 The Dark Side: Meeting With the Cali Cartel

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. We’ve just hosted our first live Patreon Q&A, where Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson answered questions directly from members, covering football history, stories from the game and much more. Here is a section from the conversation, watch and listen to the full episode only on Patreon.

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the extraordinary history of Colombian football leading up to the 1994 World Cup. This episode covers the intersection of football and narco-culture, Pablo Escobar's involvement in the sport, the tense rivalry with Argentina, and the dramatic road to qualification culminating in the legendary 5-0 victory at El Monumental. 

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:39 The El Dorado League & Early Colombian Football

10:11 Francisco Maturana: The Dentist Who Revolutionised Colombian Football

19:02 Maturana's Influences: Total Football Meets South American Flair

27:43 Navigating Narco-Culture: Pablo Escobar

36:11 René Higuita: The Sweeper-Keeper & The Kidnapping

41:25 Building Rivalry: Colombia vs Argentina at Copa América 1993

48:12 World Cup Qualifying Begins: Asprilla's Controversies

54:03 The Road to Buenos Aires: Setting Up the Five-Nil

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We're on Patreon! As a treat to our loyal listeners, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author Bill Buford to round up their series on hooliganism.

BONUS EDITIONS

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

WORLD CUP WEDNESDAYS!

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTION

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHAN

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITY

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

What’s included

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part of our two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper trace the roots of football violence from the 1890s through to its transformation into organised ‘firms’ in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. They discuss the origins of the word ‘hooligan’, early crowd disorder and FA crackdowns, and how post-war prosperity, youth subcultures, away travel and ‘taking ends’ helped create a new kind of fan conflict. The episode also covers the European and England-team flashpoints of the 1970s and 80s, the political and policing response to the Popplewell Report, with later links to post-Hillsborough reforms and why large-scale hooliganism declined.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:39 Where the Word ‘Hooligan’ Comes From (1890s London)

04:03 Football Fever: Mass Crowds and Class Anxiety

12:17 What Early ‘Hooliganism’ Looked Like: Pitch Invasions & Crowd Control

17:43 Players Under Attack

20:25 Fan-on-Fan Violence Emerges & the Rise of Away Travel

22:08 Cup Finals, ‘Football Specials’ & Patronising Press Panic

27:27 Post-War: The 60s–70s Gangs Are Coming

29:02 Teddy Boys, Rock ’n’ Roll Panics & Mods vs Rockers

31:02 Merseyside: Away Travel & the Rise of Chanting

36:53 Taking Ends: Territory, Undercover Trouble & the New ‘Game’

41:58 Europe & England Abroad: From Paris 1975 to Euro 1980

44:00 1980s Casuals, Designer Gear & Firms Arranging Fights

48:43 1985: Luton–Millwall, Heysel, Thatcher & the Popplewell Report

51:28 Aftermath: CCTV, ID Schemes & Taylor Report

53:50 Global Legacy: Ultras, Copycat Firms & Why Football Identity Endures

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of a two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Cass Pennant - former West Ham United Inter City Firm member who later became an author and film producer. They discuss director Ian Stuttard (known as “Butch”) and his 1985 groundbreaking documentary 'Hooligan', which challenged the stereotype of hooligans. Cass explains how Stuttard earned access by spending months with the ICF without a camera, building trust, and later filming from inside the action. The episode also covers the Thatcher-era context, the film’s controversial release and its wider impact on how 'firms' were understood. We finish the episode with Cass reflecting on Stuttard’s wider documentary career, their later partnership in a production company, and Stuttard’s lasting legacy. Join us next week for the history of football hooliganism.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

00:38 Introducing Cass Pennant and the Documentary

03:21 How Ian Stuttard Got Access to the ICF

11:08 Trust Test: A Year With No Camera

15:28 1985 Context: Thatcher’s Britain, Youth Culture, and Misread ‘Casuals’

24:19 Inside the Footage: Street Fighting, Early Video Cameras, and Codes of Conduct

26:23 Butch’s War-Correspondent Mindset

33:22 Back in the Studio: How ‘Hooligan’ Got Its Unfiltered Authenticity

34:02 Pre-Broadcast Panic: Calls to Ban the Film & Fears of Copycats

40:18 From Gangs to ‘Firms’

45:33 Inside Whitehall: Giving Evidence to the Popplewell Inquiry

54:59 Why It Faded: Fans Wanting Out, Politics, Policing & the Premier League Era

58:42 Stuttard's Legacy: Funeral Reflections, Final Bucket List Match & Lasting Impact

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We're on Patreon! As a treat to our loyal listeners, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

In a new Patreon series - Rob and Jonathan take a trip back through the World Cup! This will be dropping every Wednesday on Patreon - so we've gone with the imaginative title of World Cup Wednesdays!

If you join, you'll also be getting ad-free main episodes, loads more bonus episodes, magazine retrospectives and Q&As with Rob and Jonathan. Plus you'll be supporting the show and connecting with the "It Was..." community.

Patreon subscribers get:

BONUS EDITIONS

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

WORLD CUP WEDNESDAYS!

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTION

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHAN

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITY

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

What’s included

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into Pep Guardiola’s story at Manchester City 10 years on from his appointment at the club and the difficulties he would face in his opening season. Join us as we explore the highs and lows, from the thrilling victories to the unexpected defeats. We discuss his controversial decisions, key matches, and the significant signings that shaped the team's future. Can Pep's philosophy adapt to the rigors of English football? Discover how one of the world's most acclaimed coaches navigated his debut season and set the stage for a legacy at the Etihad. Don't miss out on the in-depth analysis and special bonus content available exclusively on our Patreon page, following the link below:

https://www.patreon.com/cw/ItWas

00:00 Exciting News: Join Our Patreon Community!

02:51 Introduction

04:47 Pep Guardiola's First Season Struggles

07:56 The Tactical Challenges and Key Matches

15:52 Pep's Appointment and Early Expectations

22:02 Transfer Market Moves and Squad Challenges

27:53 Yaya Touré's Controversial Exit

28:56 Manchester City's Winning Streak

30:34 Champions League Group Stage Drama

32:02 Pep's Concerns and Criticisms

43:49 Champions League Humiliation

51:44 End of a Disappointing Season

53:19 Looking Ahead: Pep's Future at City

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We're launching on Patreon! And to kick things off, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

In this first episode in a new Patreon series - Rob and Jonathan take a trip back through historic issues of football magazines - starting with Shoot!

If you join, you'll also be getting all of our main episdoes ad free, bonus episodes, World Cup countdown and Q&As with Rob and Jonathan. Plus you'll be supporting the show and connecting with the "It Was..." community.

Patreon subscribers get:

BONUS EDITIONS

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

WORLD CUP COLLECTION

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTION

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHAN

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITY

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

What’s included

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We are excited to announce that we will be launching a Patreon on Friday 6th February, where you can get bonus episodes and exclusive content. Follow the link below to sign up:

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. On today's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue exploring one of the most controversial football transfers - Luis Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid. In this second part of the two-part series, they delve into the public and private turmoil surrounding the transfer, including the dramatic fallout at both clubs, fan reactions, and the momentous pig's head incident. They also examine the long-term impact on Figo's career and friendships, and the profound changes this transfer spurred in football. Don't miss this thrilling conclusion!

00:00 Exciting News and our Patreon Launch

02:51 Introduction to the Episode

04:28 Speculation and Media Frenzy

06:17 Election Drama and Figo's Dilemma

07:30 The Final Decision

09:52 The Fallout and Consequences

11:51 The Election Results

13:56 Figo's Reluctance and Pressure

16:26 The Persuasion Tactics

19:20 The Final Agreement

28:19 Florentino's Persuasion Tactics

31:22 Figo's Announcement and Gaspar's Reaction

33:14 The Fallout in Barcelona

40:57 The First El Clásico After the Transfer

43:49 The Infamous Pig's Head Incident

48:56 The Lingering Legacy and Impact

53:20 Figo's Reflections and Conclusion

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into one of the most shocking football transfers of all time - Luis Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid. They discuss the immense impact of this transfer on both clubs, the controversy surrounding it, and how it altered the landscape of football transfers forever. Featuring insights about the political machinations in both clubs, the role of agents, and the seismic shift this transfer created in the football world, this episode brings to life the dramatic story behind the headlines. Tune in for part one of this fascinating two-part series!

00:00 Quote to open the episode

05:53 Figo's Role and Style of Play

09:16 The Political and Historical Context

17:03 The Presidential Election and Florentino Perez

26:39 Florentino Perez's Strategy

30:44 The Complacency at Barcelona

31:23 Florentino Perez's Scramble for Figo

32:20 The Role of José Veiga

36:11 The Pre-Contract and Its Implications

48:06 The Election and the Leak

52:54 The Fallout and Future Implications

53:20 Exciting News: Launching a Patreon

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. In the final episode of our four-part special on the NASL, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the decline and eventual collapse of the league. From financial instability, over-expansion, and missed opportunities, to the controversial business decisions and the rise of indoor soccer. This episode covers the myriad of factors that led to the NASL's downfall. Explore the final turbulent years, the impact on US Soccer, and the lessons learned from one of football's most intriguing leagues.

00:00 Introduction to the NASL and Its Peak

02:08 The Decline Begins: Post-Pele Era

05:36 Celebrity Owners and Financial Woes

09:01 The Cosmos' Dominance and League Format Issues

19:21 Franchise Movements and Player Strikes

29:03 The Beginning of the End: Financial Losses and Decline

36:13 Ownership Disputes and Relocations

37:53 Franchise Failures and Player Movements

43:34 NASL's Struggles and FIFA's Ultimatum

44:28 The Final Collapse of NASL

55:18 Failed Experiments and Indoor Soccer

01:01:49 The End of NASL and Its Legacy

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this third episode of our four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL), co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dive deep into the transformation kicked off by the arrival of legendary soccer star Pele. We go on an epic journey of the NASL, from shambolic beginnings to becoming one of the most iconic and influential leagues in world football, even if just for a short while. We explore how the NASL went from drawing crowds, to attracting the highest-paid player in the world, and the ensuing excitement and challenges that followed. Featuring the key moments, star players, innovative marketing strategies, and the initial signs of financial instability, this episode captures the league at its highest just before its inevitable decline. Don't miss this fascinating look at the peaks of NASL's history and what ultimately led the league to stumble. Tune in next week for the final episode of this four-part series.

02:33 The Growth of Soccer in American Schools and Colleges

03:32 Financial Struggles and the Arrival of Pele

13:54 Innovative Rule Changes and Attendance Issues

18:11 The Role of Media and Celebrity Influence

23:55 The NASL's Expansion and Financial Commitments

31:20 The Pursuit of Soccer Superstars

33:01 Pele's Impact on American Soccer

34:56 The Rise of NASL Franchises

36:59 Challenges and Financial Struggles

39:11 Marketing Gimmicks and Celebrity Players

55:03 The Golden Year of 1977

01:04:36 Pele's Farewell and Future Uncertainties

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Following the sacking of Ruben Amorim by Manchester United, here is a recommended replay from our episode released in November 2024, when Amorim first arrived at Manchester United. Jonathan and Rob discuss the clubs persistent challenge in finding a manager capable of replicating the legacy left by its legendary figures - something that still stands today...

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue onto part two of a four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL). They discuss the initial attempts to establish professional soccer leagues in America, including the rivalries between the NASL and the National Professional Soccer League (NPSL). The episode covers the impact of foreign teams, the financial and logistical hurdles, and the ongoing struggle to gain popularity and acceptance in the U.S. market. With input from past experiences and key figures, they provide an in-depth look at why American soccer faced numerous setbacks and what was done to overcome them. Join us next week for part three!

01:09 The Early Years of Soccer in the USA

01:34 The Impact of the Wall Street Crash

06:46 Post-War Challenges

09:43 The Decline of American Soccer in the 1950s

21:46 The 1960s: A Decade of Missed Opportunities

27:15 The Birth of the NASL

33:25 Lack of American Players in Early Leagues

34:55 Rival Leagues: NPSL vs NASL

35:42 Initial Matches and Attendance Issues

40:11 Discipline Problems and Game Abandonments

48:10 Financial Struggles and Legal Battles

49:13 National Team Struggles and Attempts at Growth

50:31 Foreign Influence and Pre-season Tours

54:48 Financial Instability and League Contraction

58:20 NASL's Unconventional Season Format

01:00:32 Legacy and Future Prospects of NASL

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring you a New Years Day Special Episode. We hope you enjoy and wish you all a Happy New Year!

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by a special guest and former footballer Dennis Tueart. In this first episode of our four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL), Dennis, known for his iconic moments with Sunderland and Manchester City, shares his remarkable journey from English football to the booming NASL in the 1970s. Discover his experiences with the New York Cosmos, playing alongside legends like Franz Beckenbauer, replacing Pele, navigating cultural shifts, and understanding the challenges and triumphs that shaped the future of soccer in America. Don't miss this deep dive into football history, glamour, and the evolution of the beautiful game in the United States.

00:57 Dennis Tueart's Transfer to the Cosmos

02:05 Challenges and Decisions

04:19 Arrival and Initial Impressions

07:15 Experiences and Reflections

11:38 Life in the NASL

17:18 Training and Facilities

18:58 Pre-season and Early Challenges

25:14 The NASL's Unique Rules

29:55 Challenges and Triumphs in the NASL

30:25 Play-off Performances and Nicknames

30:59 Intense Matches and Injuries

31:36 The Semi-final Comeback

36:27 Winning the Conference Final

37:40 Facing Rodney Marsh and Tampa Bay

42:51 Touring and Transitioning

46:53 Final Reflections and Legacy

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this Christmas Special Episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author John Smith to talk about his new book - 'Escape: A Love Letter to a Cult Football Classic' all about the film 'Escape to Victory'. The trio delve into the making of the film, revealing behind-the-scenes stories, discussing the film's historical context, and analysing the football sequences. We take a look at inside stories from the remarkable cast and crew, including Pele and Sylvester Stallone. The three discuss amusing anecdotes, the authenticity of the football matches and the film's lasting impact. This episode is a must-listen for fans of film and football history. Wishing you all a Merry Christmas from the It Was What It Was team!

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming John Smith

04:41 The Making of 'Escape to Victory'

20:44 Historical Resonances and Themes

28:59 Behind the Scenes Stories

34:09 The Escape Plan in the Film

37:11 The Cast and Their Connections

41:36 The Missing Footballer Mystery

46:01 Lack of Female Characters

47:06 The Football Game Analysis

53:19 The Half-Time Escape Plan

58:00 The Final Match Moments

01:06:13 Concluding Thoughts and Farewell

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into George Orwell's infamous essay on sport, specifically focusing on Dinamo Moscow's 1945 tour of Britain. They explore Orwell's controversial viewpoint that serious sport is akin to 'war minus the shooting,' and delve into the historical and political context of this post-WWII football tour. The discussion covers the tactical innovations introduced by the Soviet team, the media and public's reaction, and the broader implications for international sport and politics. This episode provides an in-depth look at how football can both unite and divide, reflecting on Orwell's critique and its relevance to today's sports culture.

00:00 Introduction: The Dark Side of Sports

01:05 George Orwell's Influence on Sports

01:49 The Political Context of the 1945 Moscow Tour

02:47 The Goodwill Tour: Ideals vs. Reality

05:00 The Soviet Union's Football Strategy

08:23 The Arrival of Dinamo Moscow

21:45 The First Match: Dinamo Moscow vs Chelsea

30:53 The Political Showdown: Arsenal vs Dinamo Moscow

32:31 The Final Game in Scotland

35:56 Soviet Propaganda and the Legacy of the Tour

40:36 Tactical Innovations and English Football's Response

47:36 George Orwell's Critique of Sport

53:18 Football's Role in Nationalism and International Relations

01:00:51 Concluding Thoughts on Orwell and Football

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest and historian David Goldblatt. In this episode, they discuss David's new book, 'Injury Time,' which examines the impact of recent seismic events like Brexit, COVID-19, and populism on football in Britain. They delve into the popularity of football despite its numerous challenges, the economic disparities within the game, and the global obsession with the Premier League. The conversation also touches on the significance of football as a cultural and political space, the rise of women's football, and the ethical concerns surrounding state ownership of clubs. They also examine the role of fans and community. This episode provides a comprehensive look at the current state and the future of the beautiful game.

00:00 Introduction

00:55 The State of Football Today

03:21 Football as a National Obsession

07:41 Globalisation and Football's Cultural Impact

19:12 Economic Disparities in Football

21:35 Football Reflecting Social Inequalities

29:50 Football's Role in Social and Political Issues

31:20 The Role of Football in Society

33:38 Economic Inequality in Football

36:50 The Super League Controversy

41:25 Cultural Resistance and Football's Future

54:42 The Impact of COVID on Football

59:20 State Involvement in Football

01:02:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper look into the dark and controversial period of Streltsov’s life. In this second part we cover the heinous crime that Streltsov was accused of, the subsequent trial and conviction, and his years in the Gulag. Despite the damning evidence, Streltsov's eventual return to football and continued popularity are explored, along with the societal implications and unresolved questions surrounding his story. Join us for a detailed look at both the fall and unexpected resurgence of a man once considered the 'Russian Pele.’

This episode contains discussion of sexual abuse and rape, which some listeners may find distressing. If you’ve been affected by any of the issues raised, the NHS provides a list of support services and resources here:

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/help-after-rape-and-sexual-assault

00:00 A Dark Story Unfolds

00:31 The Accusation and Confession

04:50 The Aftermath and Public Reaction

05:40 Evidence and Forensic Details

07:05 The State's Role

08:22 Personal Struggles and Downfall

23:42 Speculations and Suspicions

26:14 The Case Against Streltsov

28:14 The Soviet State's Role

30:31 Marina's Disappearance

32:08 Life in the Gulag

40:15 Streltsov’s Return to Football

48:21 Legacy and Controversy

52:06 Conclusion

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the story of Eduard Streltsov, the 'Russian Pele'. In the first part of this two-part series, we trace Streltsov's meteoric rise from a poor upbringing to becoming a celebrated football talent. Witness his groundbreaking performances, his early brush with fame, and the personal flaws that began to unravel his career. Discover the events leading up to the fateful allegations that would ultimately tarnish his legacy. Join us as we unveil the complexities and the promises cut short in the life of one of Soviet football's most enigmatic figures.

This episode contains discussion of sexual abuse and rape, which some listeners may find distressing. If you’ve been affected by any of the issues raised, the NHS provides a list of support services and resources here:

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/help-after-rape-and-sexual-assault

00:00 Introduction

03:38 The Soviet Football Landscape in the 1950s

09:35 Streltsov's Early Life and Family Background

16:31 Streltsov's Football Career Takes Off

20:40 The 1956 Olympics and Missed Opportunities

25:17 The Medal That Never Was

27:01 The Downfall Begins

30:37 A Pattern of Trouble

49:50 Streltsov's Arrest

50:12 Confession and Public Outcry

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue the extraordinary story of Imre Hirschl, the Hungarian who revolutionised South American football. In this second part, we look into Hirschl's impact on Uruguay's historic 1950 World Cup victory and his innovative tactics at Club Atlético Peñarol and River Plate. Discover how Hirschl's genius and controversial methods shaped football history, transforming teams and leaving a lasting legacy on the footballing world. 

00:45 The Tactical Mastermind Behind Uruguay's Success

01:55 Controversial Matches and Referee Decisions

05:20 The Dominance of the Big Five in Argentinian Football

08:37 Hirschl's move to River Plate 

11:59 Tactical Evolution and Direct Play

16:55 Hircshl’s Downfall and Match-Fixing Allegations

21:06 Return to Coaching and Success in Uruguay

28:22 Strict Discipline and Unique Methods

29:09 Young Players and Team Dynamics

31:14 Campaign for National Coach

31:59 Political Disputes and Appointments

33:22 World Cup Preparations and Chaos

35:43 Uruguay's Tactical Genius

37:11 The Shocking World Cup Final

43:48 Aftermath and Legacy

44:58 Hirschl's Influence and Final Years

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper deep dive into the extraordinary story of Imre Hirschl, the Hungarian who took South American football by storm. In this first part of a two-part series we hear the story of Hirschl's early life, his emigration to South America, and his unexpected rise to coaching fame in Argentina. From starting as a salami salesman to becoming the mastermind behind Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata's success, Hirschl's tale is one of perseverance, innovation, and tactical genius. Tune in to discover the myths, challenges, and triumphs of this unlikely football legend who redefined the game during the early 20th century.

00:00 The Unlikely Beginnings of a Coaching Legend

03:46 The Hungarian Influence on South American Football

07:59 Unraveling the Myths and Realities

09:40 A Journey Through War and Immigration

16:29 The Butcher Turned Football Visionary

21:55 The Mystery of Hirschl's Football Career

24:38 Meeting Béla Guttmann and the Next Chapter

26:21 Hirschl's Coaching Journey Begins

28:14 Tactical Innovations and Success

30:21 Challenges and Triumphs in Argentina

31:14 Early Coaching Stint in Brazil

32:42 Struggles and Determination

42:21 Hirschl's Coaching Philosophy

46:48 Building a Winning Team

49:32 Conclusion and Future Prospects

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part on data in football, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their exploration into how data analytics transformed modern football. This episode delves into Liverpool's remarkable journey using data and how it helped them to win the Champions League in 2019 and the Premier League in 2020. We take a look at the story behind key figures like Ian Graham and Michael Edwards, exploring their early skepticism, the challenges they faced, and the groundbreaking decisions that followed. Discover how Liverpool's recruitment strategy evolved with data, featuring key transfers such as Sadio Mané, Mohamed Salah, and Andy Robertson. Discover the tensions and synergies between data-driven decisions and traditional football instincts that reshaped Liverpool and influenced their remarkable success under Jürgen Klopp.

00:44 The Role of Data in Football

02:00 Key Figures: Ian Graham and Michael Edwards

03:17 Michael Edwards' Journey

07:18 Early Skepticism and Challenges

12:39 Liverpool's Data Revolution

14:54 Transfer Market Strategies

18:35 Cultural Clashes and Successes

26:24 Ian Graham's Role in Liverpool's Data Revolution

27:42 The Transfer Committee's Struggles and Criticisms

30:23 Jurgen Klopp's Introduction to Data Analytics

35:49 The Impact of Data on Key Signings

42:12 The Evolution and Challenges of Data-Driven Decisions

44:43 The Future of Data in Football

51:47 Conclusion

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by journalist, broadcaster and author of 'Expected Goals: The story of how data conquered football and changed the game' Rory Smith. In today’s episode we explore the fascinating journey of data analytics in football. From the early days of Charles Reep and Valeriy Lobanovskyi's basic data collection to the revolutionary 1990s that saw a surge in clubs like Liverpool using a data-driven approach under Ian Graham and Michael Edwards to lead to Premier League success. We also look at how clubs like Bolton Wanderers under Sam Allardyce leveraged data to gain a competitive edge and and the cultural shift towards data in football management. Tune in to understand how data played a crucial role in some of the greatest footballing successes of the modern era.

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming Rory Smith

00:42 The Evolution of Data in Football

01:29 The Role of Data Collectors

05:04 Prozone and Early Data Pioneers

11:17 The Culture War: Nerds vs. Scouts

12:17 Sam Allardyce: The Unlikely Data Advocate

23:32 Moneyball and Its Impact on Football

27:24 Decision Technology and Early Predictions

28:06 The Role of Data in Football Predictions

28:48 The Fink Tank Column and Its Impact

31:09 Spurs' Missed Opportunity with Data

32:56 Tottenham's Early Adoption of Data Analytics

41:11 Liverpool's Data-Driven Transformation

47:10 The Cultural Shift Towards Data in Football

58:44 The Importance of Communication in Data Utilisation

59:45 Conclusion 

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second episode of a two-part special, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their exploration of Lionel Messi's early years, focusing on his journey from 2005 to the cusp of greatness in 2008. This episode delves into pivotal moments such as Messi's breakthrough in Barcelona's first team, his dramatic red card on his Argentina debut, and his developing relationship with key figures like Ronaldinho. We take a look at Messi's significant impact in the Joan Gamper Trophy, his hat-trick against Real Madrid in the El Clásico, and his stunning solo goal against Getafe. The episode also sheds light on the internal struggles and political tensions within Argentina's national team during the 2006 World Cup, and the influence of Barcelona's management in shaping Messi's career path. Join us as explore the trials and triumphs that shaped Messi into one of football's greatest ever.

00:00 Introduction: Messi's Early Brilliance

00:40 Messi's Breakthrough in 2005

01:23 Homesickness

04:00 Argentina Debut: A Rocky Start

09:25 Barcelona's Dilemma

11:31 Rising Star: The Joan Gamper Trophy

13:52 Contract Negotiations and Transfer Rumors

17:34 Messi's Impact in La Liga and Champions League

25:29 Messi's Diet and Lifestyle Concerns

26:11 Injury Setback and Return to Training

27:26 Champions League Final Disappointment

31:22 World Cup 2006: Argentina's Journey

36:07 Quarter-Final Clash with Germany

42:25 Barcelona's Decline and Messi's Rise

46:57 Ronaldinho's Influence and Messi's Future

49:10 Conclusion and Future Prospects

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into Lionel Messi's early years at Barcelona and his rise to stardom. They explore Messi's journey from his initial signing to the club in 2000 to the early recognition of his talent by notable figures like Ronaldinho. The episode highlights Messi's challenges, including his growth hormone treatment and cultural adjustments as a young Argentine in Spain. Key moments such as his interactions with future stars like Gerard Piqué, Cesc Fàbregas, as well as his significant contributions to Barcelona's youth and first teams, which are discussed in detail. This episode covers his early setbacks, first team debut, and eventual triumphs, culminating in his standout performance at the 2005 FIFA U20 World Cup. Join us as we uncover how Messi went from a promising youngster to an emerging superstar at Barcelona. 

00:00 Introduction to the episode

00:40 Messi's Signing and Initial Challenges

01:15 Settling in Barcelona: Cultural and Personal Struggles

05:51 Integration and Early Successes

20:40 Political Chaos and Youth Team Dynamics

23:33 Messi's Rising Star and International Attention

27:06 First Impressions and Early Training

27:39 Debut and Initial Reactions

29:37 Contract Negotiations and Adjustments

32:48 National Team Dilemmas

38:31 Integration into Barcelona's First Team

46:27 Under-20 World Cup and Rising Stardom

51:18 Conclusion and Looking Ahead

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In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the decline of Nottingham Forest following their European Cup victories. This final part of a four-part special looks at the financial turmoil, management struggles, and internal conflicts that marked the club's subsequent years. Join us as we discuss how the relationship between Brian Clough and Peter Taylor deteriorated, the club’s misjudged transfers, and the impact of Clough's growing dependence on alcohol. From the fallouts to the poignant departures, this episode covers the unraveling of a once-glorious team and the tragedy of a fractured partnership.

00:00 Financial Woes and Disappointment

00:50 The Decline Begins

02:32 Unraveling Behind the Scenes

04:18 Transfer Turmoil

09:24 Clough and Taylor's Strained Relationship

14:11 Financial Scandals and Internal Strife

18:05 The Breaking Point

29:03 Clough's Controversial Decisions

32:24 Financial Struggles and Player Transfers

37:18 Clough's Health and Alcohol Issues

45:02 The Breakup with Peter Taylor

48:20 Reflecting on Clough and Taylor's Legacy

51:29 Clough's Changing Management Style

53:43 The Greatest Achievement in European Football

55:28 Conclusion

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In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue the story of Brian Clough’s Nottingham Forest, following on from their European Cup victory in the last episode. This third part of a four-part special covers the 1979-80 season, looking at how Forest overcame obstacles both on and off the pitch to claim their second successive European Cup. Within the season there are some highs and lows, from overcoming unexpected challenges, and navigating crucial European fixtures to dealing with internal instability and controversial management methods. From high-profile transfers to unforgettable European nights, tune in to discover how this extraordinary team went on to write another chapter in their illustrious history.

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene

01:03 Nottingham Forest's European Campaign Begins

01:28 Key Transfers and Management Decisions

07:47 Unexpected Challenges and Controversies

20:31 European Cup Quarter-Finals

28:52 The Importance of Team Camaraderie

30:19 Challenges and Strategies in European Matches

32:38 Player Management and Injuries

36:23 Prepping for the European Cup Final

42:49 The Final Match Against Hamburg

51:03 Post-Match Reflections and Legacy

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In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their deep dive into Brian Clough's transformative tenure at Nottingham Forest. This second part of a four-part special, captures the thrilling journey as Forest ventures into the European Cup, starting from their incredible 5-1 victory over AEK Athens and leading up to their historic final against Malmö. Expect to hear detailed anecdotes and insights revealing Clough's unique management style, key matches and significant strategic decisions, including the controversial but ultimately successful signing of Trevor Francis for a British record fee. Join us to explore how a team from the second division ascended to the pinnacle of European football.

00:28 Introduction to Nottingham Forest's European Journey

01:26 Forest's Rise to European Dominance

01:46 The Quest for the European Cup

03:36 Strategic Moves and Key Decisions

10:02 Facing Liverpool in the European Cup

12:42 The Tactical Genius of Clough and Taylor

26:17 The Aftermath and Moving Forward

26:38 Unbeaten Streak and Chairman Change

27:35 European Cup Drama: Forest vs. AEK Athens

28:19 Clough's Management Style and Larry Lloyd Incident

30:55 Training Anecdotes and Managerial Hypocrisy

37:39 Trevor Francis Joins Forest

40:51 League Cup Final and European Cup Quarter-Finals

42:25 Semi-Final Showdown Against Cologne

48:37 European Cup Final Against Malmö

55:27 Forest Crowned European Champions

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the stage for Brian Clough’s remarkable journey to becoming manager of Nottingham Forest in this first part of a four-part-special. After his departure from Leeds, Clough takes on the challenge of revitalising a mid-table second division team into a team that dominates English and European football. Clough's reunion with assistant Peter Taylor plays a pivotal role as they sign key players like Peter Shilton and Kenny Burns. This episode looks at the early challenges faced, strategic player signings, and the pivotal moments that laid the groundwork for Nottingham Forest's incredible achievements. Join us as we set the stage for one of football's most astonishing success stories.

01:09 The Rise and Fall of Brian Clough

08:30 Clough's Early Struggles at Nottingham Forest

21:03 Clough's Confrontational Style

24:44 Building the Foundation for Success

27:07 The Clough-Taylor Partnership

27:39 Taylor's Reluctance and Reconciliation

28:52 Building a Winning Team

31:16 The Anglo-Scottish Cup Victory

33:37 Promotion to the Top Flight

34:43 Strengthening the Squad

36:33 Clough's England Manager Candidacy

42:11 A Defensive Strategy for Success

46:46 Winning the League and Beyond

52:15 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into Manchester United’s 1985-86 season - a campaign filled with promise, passion, and ultimately, heartbreak.

A year that began with soaring hopes and a record-breaking unbeaten run, unravels in a whirlwind of injuries, off-field drama, and missed opportunities. We’ll explore the highs and lows of Ron Atkinson’s final full season in charge, from the electric atmosphere at Old Trafford to the heartbreak of falling short in the title race. Expect in-depth analysis of key matches, player performances, and the pivotal moments that defined the season as Rob and Jonathan relive the excitement, the agony, and the legacy of 1985-86.

00:29 – The 1985-86 Season: High Hopes and Early Promise

01:49 – Ron Atkinson’s Arrival and United’s Managerial History

04:38 – The Big Ron Era: Style, Successes, and Setbacks

08:41 – The Bryan Robson Factor: United’s Dependence

13:23 – Squad Building, Transfers, and Team Dynamics

17:13 – Cup Runs, League Frustrations, and Dressing Room Drama

24:50 – The State of English Football in the Mid-80s

25:59 – The 1985-86 Season Kicks Off

27:50 – United’s Record-Breaking Start

32:41 – The Winning Streak and Early League Dominance

39:13 – Injuries, Draws, and the Beginning of the Decline

43:34 – Mark Hughes’ Transfer Saga and Off-Field Turmoil

47:03 – The Drinking Culture and Its Impact

49:43 – The Collapse: Losing Form and the Title

54:56 – The End of the Atkinson Era

59:18 – The Arrival of Sir Alex Ferguson & Reflections

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast hosted by Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper. In this second episode of a two-part special, we delve into the pivotal moments that lifted the 50-year ban on women's football in England. From the formation of the Women’s Football Association, to looking at the birth of the Lionesses and their first official international match. This episode looks at the pioneering women and their allies who revived the game in the 1960s, building grassroots clubs, fighting for recognition to pave the way for women’s football today. Tune in to hear all about the history of the women’s game.

00:00 The End of the Ban

00:28 Picking Up the Pieces: Women’s Football After the Ban

00:53 The 1960s Revival: Grassroots and New Teams

03:10 The Impact of England’s 1966 World Cup Win

07:54 Building a Movement: Key Figures and Early Clubs

10:56 Struggles for Facilities and Recognition

12:50 International Influence

21:22 The Formation of the Women’s Football Association

24:32 The FA’s Changing Attitude and Official Recognition

27:20 The First Women’s FA Cup and International Competitions

29:40 Tensions: Unofficial vs. Official Tournaments

36:52 The Lost Lionesses: Mexico 1971 and Unrecognised Pioneers

40:26 The First Official Lionesses Game: Scotland vs. England, 1972

45:44 Media Coverage and Social Attitudes

47:44 Timeline: From the First Match to Modern Success

50:08 Reflections: The Legacy of the Pioneers

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Welcome back to another episode of It Was What It Was with hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper as they delve into the history of The Lionesses and the true story behind the first ever women's Euros. This episode explores the struggles and triumphs of women's football, from the controversial FA ban in 1921, to England's historic victory in the 2025 Euros. Rob and Jonathan look into the pioneering efforts of teams like the Dick, Kerr Ladies and the Manchester Corinthians, looking at how women's football overcame a 50-year ban to shine on the world stage. Join us as we uncover the groundbreaking stories and resilient pioneers behind this incredible journey through a century of women's football history.

00:00 Introduction: Girls and Football

00:51 The Ban on Women's Football

01:37 The Struggle and Triumph of Women's Football

03:02 The Dick, Kerr Ladies and Their Legacy

04:22 The Impact of the FA Ban

07:00 International Tours and Recognition

12:59 Manchester Corinthians: A New Hope

18:34 Cultural Contrasts in Women's Football

20:48 The First Women's Euros: A Hidden History

22:10 The Rise and Fall of the International Ladies Football Association

26:21 Manchester Corinthians: Pioneers of Women's Football

32:21 Missed Opportunities and Reflections

38:44 Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper welcome special guest Euan Flynn, author of 'When the Year Ends in One,' to discuss Tottenham Hotspur's momentous 1990-91 season. The episode delves into Paul Gascoigne's tearful departure due to a career-threatening injury during the FA Cup final and the financial turmoil facing the club, which saw a potential world-record transfer deal collapse. The podcast covers the epic highs and disastrous lows of that pivotal season, from Gascoigne's mesmerizing FA Cup run to the behind-the-scenes financial entanglements involving Irving Scholar and the club's eventual acquisition by Alan Sugar. Tune in for an in-depth look at how this season had ramifications far beyond the football pitch.

00:00 Gascoigne's Injury and Tottenham's Financial Crisis

00:37 Introduction to the Special Episode

01:41 The Pivotal 1990-91 Season

02:19 Tottenham's Financial Woes and Ownership Issues

04:03 The Year Ending in One: A Superstition Explained

05:21 Gascoigne's Meteoric Rise and Media Frenzy

08:02 The Illusion of a Title Challenge

10:18 Irving Scholar's Takeover and Financial Missteps

21:13 The Culture and Discipline at Tottenham

23:46 The FA Cup Run Begins

31:36 The Pressure on Young Athletes

32:28 The Semifinal at Wembley

34:00 Venables and the Mysterious Financier

40:34 The FA Cup Final Build-Up

47:23 The Dramatic FA Cup Final

54:36 The Aftermath and Legacy

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the life of OrestesCorbatta, a legendary Argentine footballer whose story combines brilliance and tragedy. Known for his dazzling dribbling skills and audacious playstyle, Corbatta played a crucial role in Argentina's 1957 Campeonato Sudamericano win. However, despite his football genius, Corbatta's life was marred by alcoholism and personal struggles.

The episode explores his rise from a rural town to becoming a national icon, his struggles with illiteracy, and the personal traumas that impacted his career. Draper and Wilson also discuss the broader significance of Corbatta's style in the context of Argentine football, drawing parallels to legends like Maradona and Messi.

Join us as we remember the poetic yet tragic life of Omar Orestes Corbatta, a player whose legacy continues to influence Argentine football today.

00:00 Introduction

01:31 The Significance of the 1957 Campeonato Sudamericano

04:39 The Evolution of Argentinian Football

09:34 The Five Simbas and Their Impact

16:08 The Role of Radio in Argentinian Football Culture

19:31 The Decline and Shift in Argentinian Football

23:42 The Duality of Argentinian Football: Beauty and Cynicism

26:15 The Tragic Figure of Coba

27:25 Early Life and Struggles

29:49 Rise to Fame and Personal Challenges

33:50 The Decline Begins

38:46 Final Years and Legacy

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the Football History podcast hosted by Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper. In this second episode of a two-part special, we explore the life of Mohamed Salah - from winning his third PFA player of the year award, to the pressures and the complex political landscape he navigates in Egypt . We delve into Salah's impact in the UK, his challenging relationship with International football, from rural Egypt to the global stage, Mohamed Salah's journey is as thrilling as it is complex. Join us for an in-depth look at one of the most intriguing figures in modern football.

00:00 Introduction

00:44 Mohamed Salah's Political and Cultural Significance

03:01 The Complexities of Expressing Political Views

05:02 Historical Context: Egypt's Political Landscape

14:19 The Arab Spring and Its Aftermath

24:06 Mohamed Salah's Relationship with the Egyptian National Team

27:40 High Stakes in World Cup Play-offs

28:35 Egypt's Football Legacy and Recent Struggles

29:55 The 2018 World Cup Disappointment

31:56 Controversies and Criticisms

37:59 Political Pressures and Social Media

44:46 Salah's Impact in the UK

49:24 The Ballon d'Or and Future Prospects

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Today, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson are joined by Ed Aarons from The Guardian to discuss the incredible journey of Mohamed Salah. With the PFA Footballer of the Year awards tonight, Salah's early life and career beginnings are explored in depth. Ed shares his research from travels to Salah's hometown in Egypt, providing unique insights into the challenges Salah faced, including the long commute for training and the support from his family. The episode covers Salah’s initial struggles, his move to Basel, and his eventual breakout that caught the attention of major clubs. Join us to learn how Salah's dedication and hard work paved the way for his renowned career.

00:00 Introduction and Today's Topic: Mohamed Salah

00:38 Guest Introduction: Ed Aarons

00:54 Journey to Egypt: Tracing Salah's Roots

01:54 Experiences in Salah's Hometown

03:22 Salah's Early Life and Football Beginnings

12:39 Challenges and Dedication in Salah's Youth

18:40 Salah's Transition to Professional Football

21:29 Cultural and Personal Insights on Salah

22:11 Salah's Early Professional Struggles

23:53 The Turning Point: Mastering the Art of Finishing

25:09 Early Career Struggles and Breakthroughs

26:33 International Recognition and Olympic Success

30:10 The Tragic Event That Changed Everything

31:31 The Move to Basel: Trials and Triumphs

39:00 Challenges at Chelsea and the Path to Greatness

44:26 Liverpool's Perfect Fit: Salah's Rise to Stardom

46:25 National Team Challenges and Rivalries

49:57 Legacy and Comparisons: The Greatest African Player?

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On today's episode of It Was What It Was, hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore a crucial moment in Premier League history: José Mourinho's dramatic 2015/16 season at Chelsea. They discuss Mourinho's second sacking at Chelsea and the key incidents that led to his sacking just 6 months after winning the title, including the infamous Eva Carneiro incident and clashes with players like Eden Hazard, and a turbulent pre-season tour.

The episode examines how these factors contributed to a season of rapid decline, leading to Mourinho's sacking and raising questions about his methods in modern football.

00:00 Introduction

00:33 Reflecting on Jose Mourinho's 2015 Season

01:42 The Beginning of the End: Preseason Signs

06:01 The Eva Carneiro Incident

14:29 Preseason Tour Troubles

20:50 Early Season Struggles

26:07 The Impact of the Eva Carneiro Affair

27:54 Conclusion and Transition to Second Half

29:04 Chelsea's Struggles Begin

29:31 Tactical Changes and Player Issues

30:33 Transfer Market Woes

33:33 Leadership Void and Dressing Room Dynamics

37:43 Marino's Public Outbursts

45:57 The Final Straw: Leicester Defeat

48:21 Marino's Departure and Legacy

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by guest Jan Åge Fjørtoft to explore the groundbreaking transfer of Brazilian footabller Juninho to Middlesbrough in 1995. The discussion explores the players’ previous career highlights, the unique challenges they faced adjusting to English football, and the cultural impact of Juninho's arrival on the Premier League. Special focus is given to the transformational role this transfer played in attracting world-class talent to mid-level English clubs.

Jan gives insightful stories and personal anecdotes surrounding how Juninho became a beloved figure at Middlesbrough and his lasting legacy in English football history.

00:00 Introduction and Today's Topic

01:12 Early Career and Move to Rapid Vienna

02:32 Transition to English Football

04:49 Joining Middlesbrough and Early Impressions

13:26 The Impact of Janio's Signing

16:51 Cultural Adjustments and Training Challenges

19:07 Middlesbrough's Transformation and Community Connection

30:28 Cultural Insights from Middlesbrough

31:02 Tactical Evolution in English Football

31:45 Adapting to English Football's Physicality

36:23 Weather and Training Challenges

40:25 The Impact of Foreign Signings

50:10 Middlesbrough's Tumultuous Season

59:09 Legacy of Jan Nino and the Premier League

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In Part Two of our series on Don Revie's Leeds United, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore the origins of the 'Dirty Leeds' tag. This episode delves into the notorious 1964 match against Everton that cemented the club's aggressive reputation. It discusses the reactions from fans and media, the role of football associations, and Revie's responses.

Our conclusion also examines the cultural and tactical shifts in football during the 1960s and how Leeds' image became a point of controversy and unity for the team and its supporters.

Tune in to uncover the complexities behind one of football's most infamous labels.

Please remember to share, rate, review and comment to help It Was What It Was grow.

00:00 Introduction

01:36 The Dirty Leeds Tag

03:46 Don Revy's Management Style

27:43 Promotion and the Great Moral Panic

29:21 The Notorious Game against Everton at Goodison

30:37 Media and Public Perception

31:47 Football's Changing Landscape

33:04 The Birth of 'Dirty Leeds'

41:30 Revie's Reaction and Amplification

56:04 Conclusion and Legacy

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In this episode, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson discuss the significant impact of Don Revie on Leeds United and English football. The episode covers Revie's early career, his transition into management, and his influence on Leeds United.

The narrative delves into the challenges Leeds faced before Revie's arrival, his innovative approaches, and the beginning of Leeds' transformation. This is the first part of a series exploring the legendary 'Dirty Leeds' era, their historical context, and whether they really were 'dirty' or just misunderstood.

Join us for Part Two on Friday.

00:00 Introduction

01:03 The Controversial Reputation of Leeds United

03:21 Historical Context of Leeds United

04:26 The West Stand Fire and Financial Crisis

06:42 Managerial Struggles and Relegation

17:33 Don Revie's Appointment and Early Life

26:08 Revie's Early Career and Influence of Smith

28:34 Revie's Superstitions and Misfortunes

35:37 Transition to Manchester City and the Revie Plan

41:17 Billy Bremner's influence

47:59 Revie's Managerial Beginnings at Leeds

49:41 Conclusion and Teaser for the Part Two

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring part two into the fascinating and tragic story of Red Star Belgrade's triumphant 1991 European Cup campaign. They discuss Red Star's status as underdogs against Bayern Munich in the semifinal, their intricate path to victory amidst the backdrop of Yugoslavia's impending civil war, and the dramatic events of the legendary matches.

This episode highlights not just the team's achievements on the field, but also the historical, cultural, and political context that made their victory the last moment of unity for Yugoslav football before the nation's fragmentation. Additionally, the episode covers the aftermath of the war on Red Star and the once-great football culture of the region.

00:00 Introduction

03:18 Quarter-Final Against Dynamo Dresden

04:43 Political Tensions and the Road to the Semi-Final

08:36 The Complexities of Yugoslavia's Ethnic Divisions

12:36 The Semi-Final Against Bayern Munich

21:13 The Dramatic Second Leg against Bayern Munich

35:43 The Aftermath and Celebrations

36:16 Final against Marseille

44:13 Post-Match Reflections and Legacy

49:43 Impact of War on Red Star Belgrade

53:48 Croatian Football's Success

56:59 Conclusion

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore the history of Red Star Belgrade, focusing on their monumental 1991 European Cup win against a backdrop of Yugoslavia's political turmoil and impending civil war.

This episode explores the club's founding, cultural significance, and key players, including the dramatic escape of Miodrag Belodedici from Romania. They also detail the influence of notorious figures like Arkan and the emotional scenes in Belgrade during this turbulent time.

Part Two will release on Friday.

00:00 Introduction

06:19 Political Tensions and Football

09:31 The Riot at Maksimir Stadium

16:36 Arkan's Criminal Background

25:04 Arkan's Bonkers Wedding and Return to War

27:23 The Rise and Fall of Arkan

29:39 Red Star Belgrade: Historical Context and Formation

31:13 The Intellectual and Working-Class Roots of Red Star

36:24 Red Star's European Struggles and Triumphs

39:52 The Escape and Signing of Miodrag Belodedici

44:32 The 1991 Season and Key Changes

47:48 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this episode, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson bring their second and final part of their series on the Death Match, one of the most mythologized football games of all time.

Occurring in Nazi-occupied Kyiv, Ukraine, this match between Start, a team formed mostly of former Dinamo Kiev players, and Flakelf, a Luftwaffe team, has become a symbol of resistance. The hosts discuss the brutal context of the occupation, the complex legacies of the players, and the role football played in these extraordinary historical circumstances. Jonathan Wilson critically examines how much of the narrative is based on verifiable facts and how much may have been post-war Soviet propaganda.

This episode provides a nuanced understanding of how football intersected with geopolitics, resistance, and national identity during one of history's darkest periods.

00:00 Introduction to the Death Match Series

01:27 Historical Context: Nazi Occupation and Football

02:26 The Rise of Team Start

03:07 Early Matches and Growing Tensions

04:21 Embarrassing Defeats for Axis Teams

05:28 Public Perception and Propaganda

06:29 The Turning Point: German Concerns

14:13 The First Clash with Flakelf

18:05 Setting the Stage for the Death Match

26:06 The Referee's Influence and Game Dynamics

27:10 Halftime Tensions and Orders to Lose

28:39 Second Half and Controversial Moments

32:35 Post-Match Arrests and Interrogations

35:50 Life in the Prison Camp

43:10 Escape and Kyiv's Liberation

44:33 Legacy and Mythology of the Death Match

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the harrowing tale of 'The Death Match,' a match played under Nazi occupation in Ukraine.

They explore the brutal conditions faced by Ukrainian footballers, the formation of a remarkable team, and the resonances with modern-day conflicts. In Part One, learn how football resurfaced amidst atrocities, with bakery manager Yosyp Kordyk forming a team from former stars. The discussions cover the political intricacies and personal tragedies, setting the stage for the match itself.

Join us for Part Two on Friday, where the details of the game itself and its far-reaching consequences are revealed.

00:00 Introduction to the Yard Brigade

00:26 Welcome to the Podcast

00:53 The Mythologized Football Match

02:44 Escape to Victory and Its Origins

04:16 Introducing Joseph Cordick

05:49 The Nazi Occupation of Kiev

07:37 The Struggles of Mik Trivi

14:21 The Fall of Kiev and Its Aftermath

25:51 Ukrainian Nationalism and Football Under Nazi Occupation

27:34 The Horrors of Nazi Occupation in Kyiv

29:43 Football as a Means of Normalization

30:32 Resistance and Brutality in Kyiv

31:30 Formation of the Start Football Team

33:06 The Struggles and Symbolism of Playing Football

37:16 The First Match and Its Consequences

39:09 The Complexities of Resistance and Collaboration

49:14 The Aftermath and Public Perception

51:07 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast hosted by Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson.

Today we bring you the fascinating story of the El Dorado League in 1940s Colombia. Discover how the government, amid a brutal civil war and the assassination of liberal leader Jorge Eliécer Gaitán, turned to football to pacify an unsettled population. Learn about the league's extraordinary formation, iconic players like Alfredo Di Stefano and Adolfo Pedernera, and the league's ultimate collapse. Join us for an in-depth look at an astonishing chapter in football history and its lasting impact.

00:00 The Role of Football in Political Control

01:43 The Assassination of Jorge Eliécer Gaitán

03:33 The Aftermath and Civil Unrest

14:12 The Rise of the El Dorado League

22:51 The Impact of Global Events on Colombian Football

29:29 Player Transfers and Union Arguments

30:36 Colombian Football's Golden Era Begins

32:30 The Arrival of International Stars

34:59 Challenges and Discontent Among Players

38:32 The Decline of the El Dorado League

50:00 Political Turmoil and Football's Role

54:54 Legacy and Modern Parallels

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. After Chelsea's Club World Cup win at the weekend, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author Nick Purewal, who discusses his book Sanctioned: The Inside Story of the Sale of Chelsea FCabout the sanctioning of Roman Abramovich and the sale of Chelsea FC.

Here we give a unique insight into the unprecedented chaos surrounding Chelsea during their 2022 sale, including behind-the-scenes details of Abramovich's involvement in peace talks between Russia and Ukraine, a near-poisoning event, and the tumultuous sale process of the club that led to current owner Todd Boehly buying the club.

00:00 Introduction

04:51 Abramovich's Role and the War's Impact

07:35 The Rapid Downfall and Sanctions

16:04 Abramovich's Involvement in Peace Talks

19:28 The Poisoning Incident

26:10 Skepticism and Vindication

29:52 Legal Confusion and Government Challenges

31:47 Chelsea's Struggles Under Sanctions

35:23 The High-Stakes Sale Process

38:48 The Bidding War Heats Up

44:26 Jim Ratcliffe's Last-Minute Bid

50:10 The Aftermath and Reflections

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In a week where we marked our 100th episode, we bring you the quiz between our podcast It Was What It Was against Football Cliches.

Without co-host Rob Draper, It Was What It Was brought in John Brewin alongside producer Pat Moore to join Jonathan Wilson in an epic battle against Football Cliches' Adam Hurrey, Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker.

Three rounds, five questions in each round and a final round of Premier League hunting grounds, in a classic battle for the ages!

If you enjoyed the podcast you can find Football Cliches episodes here: https://podfollow.com/new-football-cliches

Please note: This episode was released by our opponents in February 2025.

Please do review, comment and subscribe to It Was What It Was.

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. To mark our 100th episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper revisit one of the game’s true pioneers: Herbert Chapman. Long before his Arsenal legacy, Chapman transformed Huddersfield Town in the 1920s, laying the groundwork for modern football and guiding them to become the first club to win three consecutive top-flight league titles.

A century later, Jonathan and Rob delve into the tactical innovations, strategic thinking, and leadership that defined Chapman’s revolutionary approach. This episode brings Huddersfield’s golden era to life—and shows how Chapman’s influence still echoes through the game today, both on and off the pitch.

00:00 Introduction and Milestone Celebration

01:13 Herbert Chapman's Early Life and Career

03:31 Chapman's Tactical Innovations

11:19 Leeds City and Wartime Contributions

22:07 Post-War Challenges and Huddersfield Opportunity

27:44 Brighton's Replay and the Stuffed Donkey Incident

28:49 The Controversial FA Cup Final

30:33 Chapman's Tactical Innovations

34:00 Huddersfield's Rise to Glory

41:52 The Closest Title Race Ever?

46:32 Chapman's Legacy and Move to Arsenal

48:33 Conclusion and Reflections on Chapman's Impact

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In the second and final episode of our exploration into Abu Dhabi's takeover of Manchester City, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper uncover the strategic, political, and historical forces behind one of the most transformative moves in modern football.

Incorporating expert commentary from Dr. Chris Davison, author of Abu Dhabi: Oil and Beyond, this episode explores how a state-led investment in a football club became a powerful tool of international diplomacy. We trace the roots of Abu Dhabi’s global ambitions back to the oil boom of the 1970s and '80s, the legacy of Sheikh Zayed’s leadership, and the shifting political landscape following his death in 2004.

We also examine the rise of Sheikh Mansour, the tightening grip of autocracy, and the human rights questions that shadow this high-stakes project. From geopolitics in the Arab world to influence across Africa and the Indian subcontinent.

00:00 Introduction 01:30 The Foundation of UAE and Its Growth

02:57 Sheikh Zayed's Vision and Leadership

05:24 The Role of Women and Modernisation

08:37 The Al Nahyan Family Dynamics

12:47 The Manchester City Takeover

15:39 The Impact and Strategy Behind the Takeover

22:41 The Strategic Importance of Qatar and Abu Dhabi

23:29 Human Rights Concerns in Abu Dhabi

28:52 Worker Rights and Personal Accounts

31:38 The Yemeni War and Foreign Policy

34:59 Manchester City's Aggressive Strategy

36:19 Comparing Strategies: Abu Dhabi vs. Qatar

44:23 The Future of Manchester City

46:29 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the complex history behind the Abu Dhabi takeover of Manchester City. The discussion begins with a chilling recount of a 1984 assassination of UAE ambassador Khalifa Ahmad Mubarak, claimed by the Arab Revolutionary Brigades. This incident serves as a critical backdrop for understanding the motivations and geopolitical factors influencing contemporary Middle Eastern involvement in global sports. Jonathan and Rob look into the precarious position of Abu Dhabi, the history of the UAE's formation, and the significant figures like Khaldoon Al Barak and Sheikh Zed, shedding light on why Abu Dhabi has ventured into the world of football ownership and how this has reshaped not just Manchester City but football in general.

Join us on Friday for Part Two.

00:00 Tragic Assassination in Paris

00:54 Introduction to the Podcast

01:03 The Abu Dhabi Takeover of Manchester City

03:21 Comparing Abramovich and Sheik Mansour

04:29 The Shock of the 2008 Takeover

05:09 The Initial Skepticism and Rabino Signing

07:21 The Role of Solomon Al Faim

09:26 The Importance of Kaldoon Al Mubarak

15:41 The Aggressive Approach to Regulation

22:34 Massacre at Saia and Its Impact

24:25 Khaldoon Al Mubarak's Background

27:19 Transformation of Abu Dhabi

32:23 Discovery of Oil and Its Implications

43:19 Formation of the United Arab Emirates

44:50 Challenges from Regional Powers

45:56 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, Jonathan and Rob look into the tragic and fascinating latter years of Diego Maradona's professional football career during the 1990s.

Jonathan and Rob explore Maradona's struggles with cocaine addiction, legal troubles, and numerous attempts to revive his career amidst a national crisis for Argentina's football team. From his return to his parents' hometown to his controversial time at the 1994 World Cup, follow Maradona's tumultuous journey as he battles to maintain his footballing legacy.

Please rate, review, and recommend the podcast.

00:00 Introduction to Argentina's Turbulent Football History

00:33 Diego Maradona's Struggles and Return

01:09 Argentina's National Team Crisis

01:56 Maradona's Controversial Comeback

05:01 Challenges with Argentine Football Culture

10:38 Maradona's Legal and Personal Battles

16:56 Road to the 1994 World Cup

24:41 Maradona's Defense and Consequences

26:16 Public Reaction and Media Coverage

27:30 Argentinian Utopianism and Football

31:12 Maradona's Struggles and Ban

36:38 Attempted Comeback and Managerial Stints

38:16 Final Matches and Retirement

48:22 Legacy and Future Stories

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring a two-part special focussing on the decline of one of the greatest footballers ever, Diego Maradona.

In part one, our co-hosts talk about Maradona's struggles with drug addiction, failed drug tests, and his eventual 15-month ban from football after a positive cocaine test in 1991. Despite these challenges, Maradona's impact on both the Napoli and Argentina national teams remained significant. Discover the infamous 5-0 defeat of Argentina by Colombia in 1993 and explore why the nation clamoured for Maradona's return to save their 1994 World Cup hopes. The episode provides a comprehensive look at Maradona's turbulent years leading up to his attempts at making a comeback.

Join us on Friday for Part Two.

00:00 Introduction and Context

00:30 The Decline of Diego Maradona

02:01 The Infamous Argentina vs. Colombia Match

04:57 The Fallout and National Disgrace

10:48 Maradona's Cultural Significance

16:04 Maradona's Turbulent Life in Naples

23:51 Maradona's Decline and Struggles with Fitness

25:19 Cocaine Scandal and Legal Troubles

26:53 The Fake Penis Incident and Drug Test

30:53 Maradona's Radical Detox and Support System

34:17 Political Context and Maradona's Popularity

39:52 Return to Football and Move to Sevilla

44:04 Struggles in Sevilla and Final Decline

47:52 Personal Breakdown and Return to Roots

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

With the Club World Cup underway, we wrap up the week with Part Two of our Origin Story series, focusing on Manchester United’s chaotic 2000 Club World Cup campaign in Brazil.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper unpack United’s controversial decision to withdraw from the FA Cup, the disorganised nature of the tournament, and the fiery clash between European entitlement and South American intensity.

Plus, we'll hear about the now-legendary story of Roy Keane, Teddy Sheringham, and Nicky Butt hang gliding over Rio - doing their best to stay out of sight of Sir Alex Ferguson!

If you're enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

And don't forget to subscribe to our new show Stick to Cricket, wherever you get your podcasts!

00:00 English Expectations and Brazilian Strength

00:48 Introduction to the Double History Podcast

00:58 The Infamous 2000 Club World Cup

02:01 FIFA's Ambitions and the Club World Cup

03:36 The Controversial Decision: Manchester United's Dilemma

04:27 Global Participation and FIFA's Motivations

07:09 Political Pressures and England's World Cup Bid

22:09 Manchester United's PR Disaster in Brazil

25:18 The Tournament Begins: Double Header in Sao Paulo

26:17 The Shabby Stadium and Initial Matches

27:16 David Beckham's Red Card Incident

28:22 United's Aloof Image and Public Relations Disaster

29:26 Tournament Progress and Group Stage Results

30:07 Vasco's Dominance Over Manchester United

33:11 Gary Neville's Struggles and Team Support

38:37 United's PR Disaster in Rio

40:13 Impact on United's Season and Future Tournaments

42:06 Reflections on the Club World Cup

50:43 Concluding Thoughts and Farewell

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week, with the Club World Cup underway, Rob and Jonathan delve into its chaotic and often violent origins!

They explore how the early intercontinental tournaments were organised, from the first attempts in the late 19th century to the ultimate establishment of the Toyota Cup.

We'll hear about infamous clashes between Celtic and Racing Club, and Manchester United and Estudiantes.

Join us for part two on Friday, where we continue the journey into the modern era of the tournament and discuss the controversial 32-team format in the USA.

(Apologies for a few audio issues with Rob's mic this week!)

00:00 Introduction and Financial Woes

00:21 The Club World Cup: Origins and Early Years

01:31 Early International Competitions

03:59 The Quest for a World Champion

08:07 The First Recognized World Club Tournament

13:41 The Sir Thomas Lipton Trophy

16:50 The Copa Rio: A New Era

23:16 Controversial Withdrawal and Unsatisfactory Victory

23:37 Rebranding and Decline of the Tournament

24:02 Violence and Domestic Dominance

25:01 The Little World Cup in Venezuela

26:46 The International Soccer League in the US

28:47 European and South American Club Competitions

30:45 The Birth of the Intercontinental Cup

35:34 Violence and Controversy in the Intercontinental Cup

41:36 Decline of the Intercontinental Cup

44:06 The Toyota Cup Era

45:23 The Expanded Club World Cup

46:33 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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Please note: Apologies for the audio issues in the first 10 minutes of the show.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast, with co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson.

Today we are joined by special guest David Owen, former sports editor of the Financial Times and author of multiple books on sports history. In this episode, the trio delves deep into the significant alteration of the offside rule on June 13, 1925, and how this monumental change impacted football. From the tactical transformations it spurred, like the introduction of the WM formation and the rise of the centre half role, to its broader effects on the game's entertainment value and popularity, the discussion covers it all.

Join us as we explore one of the most pivotal adjustments in football history and its lasting legacy.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

01:08 The 1925 Offside Rule Change

02:21 Historical Context of Offside Rule

02:55 Early 20th Century Offside Tactics

05:01 Impact of the 1925 Rule Change

12:27 Adaptations and Innovations

19:04 Immediate Effects in England

26:03 Notable Goal Scoring Feats

27:42 Astonishing Cup Run and Relegation Drama

29:05 Impact of the 1925 Offside Law Change

32:03 Defensive Strategies and Adaptations

34:15 Tactical Innovations and the WM Formation

42:04 Evolution of Player Roles and Transfer Market

53:32 Global Differences and Final Thoughts

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In today’s episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore one of the most powerful stories in football history: Zambia’s remarkable triumph at the 2012 Africa Cup of Nations.

Jonathan, who covered the 2012 tournament on the ground, shares firsthand reflections of what he calls the most emotional press box moment he’s ever experienced. 

Nineteen years after a devastating plane crash claimed the lives of their national squad, Zambia rose from the ashes to claim continental glory. This episode retraces their journey - from the tragedy off the coast of Gabon in 1993, the rebuilding efforts led by legendary captain Kalusha Bwalya, right through to their unforgettable victory on penalties in the very same country that witnessed their darkest hour.

00:00 The Final Match: A Battle Beyond the Pitch

00:15 Introduction to an Inspiring and Tragic Football Story

00:36 Zambia's Uplifting Victory After Tragedy

02:26 The 1993 Plane Crash: A National Tragedy

04:37 Zambia's Football Rise in the Late 80s

08:15 The Aftermath of the Crash and the Struggle for Resources

18:42 Rebuilding the Team: The Role of Kaia and New Coaches

24:01 The 2012 African Cup of Nations Journey

25:06 The Quarterfinals and Beyond

27:01 Gabon vs. Mali: A Penalty Heartbreak

27:30 Unexpected Journey to Bata

31:12 Ghana's Complacency and Zambia's Rise

38:38 The Emotional Beach Ceremony

40:27 The Dramatic Final Against Ivory Coast

51:10 Zambia's Historic Victory

52:16 Reflecting on the Significance

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the remarkable life and career of Luis Enrique, fresh off delivering Paris Saint-Germain’s first-ever Champions League title.

From leading Barcelona to a historic treble in 2015 to now rewriting PSG's narrative in Europe, Enrique’s managerial legacy is already carved into footballing folklore. But behind the silverware lies a deeply personal story; one of resilience, heartbreak, and unshakable determination.

In 2019, Enrique stepped away from football during his time as Spain’s national team coach after the tragic death of his 9-year-old daughter, Xana, who lost her battle with bone cancer. The podcast reflects on how he faced unimaginable grief and later returned to the sidelines with a renewed sense of focus, channeling his pain into purpose.

We also explore the lesser-known side of Enrique — the ultramarathon runner, the iron-willed competitor, and the fitness fanatic who demanded relentless physical commitment from his players. His obsession with endurance has shaped not only the way his teams play but also the culture he instills: high pressing, relentless movement, and mental toughness.

Where does Luis Enrique’s legacy stand now? From Gijón to Camp Nou to Paris, and from personal tragedy to professional triumph — this is a story of more than just football. It’s about the making of a modern great.

0:00 Introduction and Personal Reflection

00:32 Luis Enrique's Early Life and Background

04:15 Football Beginnings and Early Career

07:03 Transition to Real Madrid and Barcelona

16:06 International Career and Notable Incidents

22:52 Post-Playing Career and Coaching Beginnings

29:07 Luis Enrique's Coaching Journey

31:01 Barcelona's Missed Opportunity with Luis Enrique

32:36 Luis Enrique's Success at Celta Vigo

32:49 Barcelona's Second Chance with Luis Enrique

35:41 The Messi Conundrum

37:54 Luis Enrique's Triumphs and Challenges at Barcelona

44:53 The Tragic Loss of Luis Enrique's Daughter

47:15 Return to the Spanish National Team

52:26 Luis Enrique's Tenure at PSG

01:00:36 The Emotional Impact of Luis Enrique's Journey

01:02:41 Conclusion and Reflections

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