John Kiriakou's Dead Drop

IN THIS EPISODE In the previous two Spy Academy episodes, we talked about liars and how to spot them. Now it's time to put all that knowledge to good use as we deep dive into interrogating a true psychopath, the former leader of Iraq Saddam Hussein. While it would be easy to see Saddam as an unsophisticated bumpkin, it also would be a profound mistake. Saddam may have struggled to understand American motives and actions in the lead up to the American invasion of Iraq, but he understood his corner of the world as well as if not better than anyone. As he stared across the table at his interrogator, Saddam believed he was the host and that the Americans were his guests. In fact, Saddam was so cagey that he managed to interrogate his interrogators even as they were interrogating him. This episode's guest, former intelligence officer John Nixon, had studied Saddam, for years; getting the chance to interrogate the man himself, truly a monster metaphorically speaking, was not just a career-defining moment, it was a personal triumph.

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IN THIS EPISODE

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IN THIS EPISODE Welcome to John Kiriakou's Spy Academy! Whether chatting with someone informally or conducting a full-on interrogation, every spy needs to know whether or not the person they're talking to is being truthful with them. To get to the bottom of that, we'll start with defining our terms: what do we even mean by "lies" and "liars"? Whether we call them white lies, fibs, fabrications or whoppers, lies cover a lot of psychological territory. Before we can interrogate our liar, we need to understand just how many kinds of liars - and lies - we could encounter.

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IN THIS EPISODE Every whistleblower should know one thing before they step forward with their secrets that demand exposing - at some point, the legal system will engage with you. When that happens, each and every whistleblowerl will need a lawyer. John was fortunate enough to meet Jesselyn Radack early in his whistleblower journey. A whistleblower herself, Jesselyn has spent her career working for whistleblowers (all of them pro bono), making sure that government over-reach and corruption do not trample a whistleblower's legal rights or the important truth they're trying to convey. Having been a whistleblower herself, Jesselyn understands on a mitochoncrial level the run of emotions and thoughts every whistleblower experiences.

This is another episode in our "Whistleblower's Roundtable" series.

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To learn more about Jesselyn Radack and WHISPeR'S important work - or to contribute to Jesselyn and WHISPeR's work, please click on this link! By the same token, if you believe you have information that the public has a right to know - especially if it pertains to American national security - please reach out. We can help put you in touch with the right people who can help you - and keep you safe while doing it.

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https://whisper.exposefacts.org/

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IN THIS EPISODE Welcome to Season 3! As the title of this episode suggests, season 3 will refocus the podcast on spying and, this season, on whistleblowing, too. We may be in a Golden Age of Corruption, but that's a future Golden Age of Whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is the cure for corruption and one of our goals this season is to make the podcast a safe space for whistleblowers - especially if they need to unburden themselves. While whistleblowing will eventually lead to John's re-emergence, when fresh out of prison, all anyone saw when John walked in the room was an ex convict. Rebuilding a life after prison is hard for everyone. John had the CIA and the FBI undermining him constantly. For John, that meant the rebuild of his life would be extra challenging.

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IN THIS EPISODE We draw the curtain on season 2 with a preview of season 3 wherein we'll ask "What Makes A Whistleblower Tick?" To get us kicked off, John roundtables with whistleblower Tom Drake. A longtime member of America's intelligence community, Tom had just become an official at NSA when 9-11 happened - literally on Tom's first day. But, as America's "War On Terror" ramped up, Tom noticed NSA was gathering intelligence that it shouldn't - information pertaining to American citizens. NSA doing that was both outside its charter and flat out illegal. Tom chose to go through authorized channels to report what he saw. When, a decade later, the problem was still a problem, Tom finally took what he knew to the news media. What makes a whistleblower tick? Judging by Tom Drake - the right stuff.

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IN THIS EPISODE We join with another podcast in the Costard & Touchstone Family - The How NOT To Make A Movie Podcast - to explore how NOT to make a SPY movie. John and Alan Katz (he's both the host of The How NOT To Make A Movie Podcast and the co-writer/executive producer of this the Dead Drop podcast) talk about the spy TV series and movies that inspired them both when they were kids, in John's case, to become a spy, and in Alan's case, to want to write about them. And, they'll discuss the process of turning real life spy stories - like John's - into a movie or TV series.

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IN THIS EPISODE John's time at Loretto finally comes to an end - but not without a near hiccup. Though he's free of Loretto, he's not free from the federal Bureau of Prisons; John must report every day to "Hope Village", a halfway house - a situation loaded with ways to trip up and land back at Loretto. John begins the process of shaking off the prison persona he had to adopt in order to survive and relocating his true self.

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IN THIS EPISODE When John first entered the gates of Loretto Federal Prison, his goal was to use all his training as a spy to survive prison. But, just as with spying, prison can be very unpredictable. In fact, John found that he'd been fooled by one of his roommates - who'd been betraying him from the jump. As he enters the home stretch of his sentence, John doubles down on his mission to use everything he learned as a spy to survive prison to the bitter end.

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IN THIS EPISODE At Loretto Federal Prison, John can almost see the light of his release date in the not-too-distant future. Returning to the Outside World will mean having to shed the prison persona John worked so hard to create - if only for survival purposes. Meanwhile in the outside world, the suibject of John's whistleblowing - the CIA's torture program - is finally getting its day in the court of public opinion as the Senate finally gets up the nerve to release its damning report on torture. Things are coming to a head.

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IN THIS EPISODE John was hardly the first person to point out corruption in America's penal system. Paul Wright was serving a 17 year sentence for murdering a drug dealer when, in May 1990, he started The Prison Legal News. Prison changes people; it changed Paul profoundly. He transformed from a rudderless young man into a veritable crusader for prison amd legal reform.

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IN THIS EPISODE When he first arrived at Loretto Federal Prison to start serving his 30 month term, John expected to serve that term where the judge and prosecutor both advocated that John be in the minimum security camp. But someone at the Federal Bureau of Prisons decided that John was too dangerous - and assigned him to the actual prison instead. John was not even remotely dangerous. Not nearly as dangerous as the FBP is to every inmate in its charge. But, the FBP wasn't entirely wrong. John was indeed dangerous - but only to the FBP.

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IN THIS EPISODE With his out date - the end of his prison sentence - now starting to come into view (albeit still in the distance), John would have been best served by keeping his head down. But there remained unfinished business - with sevveral fellow prisoners and especially with the Soretto Prison authorities. And then there was all the unfinished business - all related to torture - happening outside Loretto.

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IN THIS EPISODE, meet Joey Casolo. These days, Joey owns a great pizzaria in South Carolina. But, back in the day, Joey was one of the greatest prison chefs ever at Loretto. If you remember from the movie Goodfellas, the Italians weren't interested in the prison chow. Instead they cooked their own food - gourmet Italian meals - all prepared using a rudimentary (and incredibly dangerous) cooking system: a bucket of water and a live electrical wire that makes the water boil immediately.

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IN THIS EPISODE: How do you fight corruption when most of the corrupt deck is stacked against you? In John's case, he used his words - and the fact that becoming a federal prisoner does not mean you surrender your rights - like the one to free speech. The prison authorities genuinely feared John's power to expose them and their corruption and plotted endlessly to find ways to silence John and cut him off from the outside world and cut the outside world's access to him.

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THE BLURB: While John was serving his sentence, the American government faced the consequences of other whistleblowers speaking their truths about the corruption they'd encountered inside the government. One of the more prominent was Edward Snowden who blew the whistle on the NSA - the National Security Agency - and the fact that it was breaking the law, violating its charter and spying on American citizens by scooping up data on their phone calls. Snowden claimed that he'd been inspired in part by John's whistleblowing. In this episode, we'll tell Ed Snowden's story and how the two whistleblowers found common ground.

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THE BLURB: In this bonus episode, John tells the story of a legal case in which he testified as an expert witness - against the FBI in a case against an accused terrorist. As John learned from personal experience, democracy and secrecy don't always play well together. The people holding the secrets tend to disregard democracy in order to protect their secrets. In this instance, the FBI went after a homeless man, determined - despite a complete lack of actual evidence - that he was a dangerous terrorist. Did John's expert testimony save the day? You'll have to listen to find out!

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IN THIS EPISODE John arrived at Loretto Federal Prison having promised to write about his experiences for various independent news media outlets. He had no idea just how powerful that connection - John's prison experiences and the news media - would prove. In this episode, John tells the story of how his prison blog - "Letters From Loretto" - became a national sensation and an ever-more-damning indictment of the corruption inside our prisons and prison system.

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THE BLURB: Already a succesful, best-selling author when the CIA put John in prison, he quickly realized that his writing - his words - were going to be his super power. John wasn't worried about his fellow prisoners; his training as a spy gave him advantages over them. But the prison authorities - corrupt to their marrow - did pose problems to John. Until they realized just how much of a super power John's writing was. Turns out, the pen is mightier than the sword and the corrupt federal prison system.

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THE BLURB: Frederich Nietsche warned us about staring into the abyss and becoming the monster we most feared. He could have been talking about being in prison. Or being a spy. In this episode, John tells how he increasingly relied on the rules of spying to navitage prison life. But, in becoming a monster in order to survive, the question becomes: when John's sentence ends, will he be able to separate himself from the monster - or will the monster he had to become follow him into the outside worldl?

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THE BLURB: While, on the one hand prison is NOT the place you go to make friends, once you're there, you need to have (and be able to rely on) a tight circle of friends just to survive. In the last episode, John introduced you to some of that tight circle. In this episode, John dives a little deeper into those relationships plus a few others that were essential parts of his prison experience. But, you can't befriend killers, conmen and pathological liars without having your own humanity ding-ed. John begins to grow oblivious of how dead-eyed he's becoming.

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THE BLURB: In prison, nobody helps anybody. Except their friends. In this episode, John will introduce you to his circle of friends, some of whom remained his friend long after they all got out of prison. Relationships that would probably never have happened except for prison can become some of the most profound, satisfying relationships one has. As you'lll hear...

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THE BLURB: One thing about prison, there are rules upon rules. Upon rules. In this episode, John realizes that he's going to have to live by his own rules in order to survive. Those rules will be entirely based on the rules John learned - and had to live by - as a spy. As John keeps learning, there's an amazing amount of similarity between living life as a federal prisoner and living life as a spy.

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THE BLURB: In season one, we told the story of how CIA counter terrorism officer John Kiriakou chose to tell ABC journalist Jonathan Ross the truth - that the CIA had tortured and waterboarded detainees like Abu Zubaydah. The CIA went on the warpath against John, finally forcing him to accept a plea deal of thirty months reducible to 23 months in federal prison. In season two, John arrives at Loretto Federal Prison and enters a world unlike anything he'd ever encountered before. Though John had expected to serve his sentence at a "Club Fed" style work camp, the Bureau of Prisons chose instead to put John in a more prison-like prison with drug dealers, mafiosi and child molesters. Every bit of John's training as a spy would serve him well as a prisoner.

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THE BLURB: Having been a prisoner despite not deserving that fate, John is extremely interested in others similarly incarcerated. To that end, back before the 2024 election, we put together an episode of a podcast called "Prisoner Ex" where we told the story of Donnie Reynolds, Jr, a young, ambitious Black entrepreneur who got swept up in the US government's failed attempt to catch and prosecute Mexican drug cartel leaders by supplying them with GPS-carrying firearms. Donnie and his whole family were law-abiding citizens going about their business before the DoJ's so-called "Operation Fast and Furious" forced itself into their homes and lives.

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If you want to help Donnie Reynolds, Jr (and we urge you to join us in helping him), please send him a letter telling him you support him. Please address the enverlope this way:

Donald Ray Reynolds, Jr

Prisoner Number 32349-074, FCI Cumberland

14601 Burbridge Road SE Cumberland, MD 21502

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THE BLURB: In this episode, we ask a question: did author and ex-spy John Le Carre invent the modern spy by channeling his experiences as a Cold War spy into novels like "The Spy Who Came In From The Cold", "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy", "The Night Manager, The Constant Gardner, Russia House and The Little Drummer Girl? What about real spies did le Carre capture that makes real spies respond to his fictional spies - and then imitate them and their language? We'll also talk shop about writing and the many challenges of repurposing a life in espionage as art.

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For more information about Glenn Carle, visit

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THE BLURB: As John's date with prison looms, he begins prepping - financially and mentally. In the end, John's plea deal would put him inside for 30 months reduceable to 23. At least it would be in a relatively benign, low security work camp setting. That was what the prosecution agreed to! Meanwhile, public opinion about John begins to shift; They go from seeing him as a pariah to a whistleblower - and an American hero. Still, prison is prison and John approaches his sentence more and more like a mission to continue speaking the truth, damn the consequences.

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THE BLURB: John demanding to see his lawyer saved him getting arrested on the spot. Almost all of the government's case against John was nonsense - which John and his lawyers wanted to prove in court. But, one of the government's charges against John had the very real potential to stick. In the end, the economic pressures won out. Still, if John was going to prison, he'd be doing it both in style and alongside the encouragemet of a growing list of celebrity friends. Still, can anything really prepare you for an absolute, picture definition "moment of truth"?

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THE BLURB: John wasn't the only CIA officer who refused training in the CIA's new "enhanced interrogation" techniques - despite assurances from the CIA's legal team. This episode's guest, author and former CIA officer Glenn Carle spent two decades in the agency. Like John, Glenn broke with the CIA over the subject of torture. Glenn was part of a team interrogating another high value Al Qaeda target, and, like John, came to appreciate that torture was completely ineffectiv"The Interrogator" heree as a way to procure information from a detainee.

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THE BLURB: John finds that working in the private sector (doing corporate intel at Deloitte and Touche) for big money, perks and benefits has its advantages over working a lot more for a lot less at the agency. Then one day - when everything's going gangbusters for John, he gets a call from Brian Ross at ABC News. And everything changes. But, how did Ross find John? And why was the news media so slow to take up and believe the torture story? By the time reporters like Ross found their way to John, they were in a feeding frenzy. In this episode, we'll tell you why that happened and how it contributed to what happened to John.

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THE BLURB: Everything must end - including a CIA career. While John had planned to make a lifetime career of the agency, circumstances dictated otherwise. So, to a large degree, did his new immediate boss-from-hell. In this episode, John begins to suss out a new, post-CIA life just over the horizon. The problem will be getting out of the CIA in one piece.

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THE BLURB: Returning from the mission in Pakistan, John decided his kids needed him to stay closer to home for a whie. He applied for and got a domestic assignment. The problem? His new boss, a pencil-pusher named Mary Margaret hated him and did everything she could think of to prove it.

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THE BLURB: If this story has a heart of darkness, this is it. How did American policy find its way to legitimizing torture? In this episode, we'll take you down that terrible road. America became a torturer because certain people - including then Vice President Dick Cheney - wanted us to be that thing. We'll also describe how the Bush Administration's wordplay, dancing around the word "torture", made torture inevitable.

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THE BLURB: After John watched Abu Zubaydah's plane rendition him to what turned out to be a black site in Thailad, he still had lots of other terrorists to interrogate. He felt contrite after getting overly physical with a detainee - but no one else in the chain of command felt John had been out of line. Returning stateside, John is approached by the agency. They want to know if he's interested in learning enhanced interrogation techniques. He wasn't. And, so began the fracture that would ultimately set John apart.

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THE BLURB: For 70 hours, almost three days, John was responsible for handling Abu Zubaydah, the terrorist the agency believed was Al Qaeda's number three. Though their time togeter was relatively short - and Zain (Abu Zubaydah's actual name) spent much of it unconscious - John did manage to build a human connection with him and began to appreciate the person inside the nom de guerre. Zain is renditioned elsewhere. John goes back to work interrogating all the other terrorists they'd grabbed alongside Abu Zubaydah while Abu Zubaydah begins to encounter the treatment that would ultimately lead to torture.

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THE BLURB: The hunt for Al Qaeda's number three, an elusive terrorist with the nom de guerre Abu Zubaydah, intensifies but seems to go nowhere. The team scoops up lots of smaller prey, but can never seem to pin down Abu Zubaydah himself. And then an anonymous walk-in tip leads to a (literal) phone line which leads to... Abu Zubaydah?

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THE BLURB: John lands in Pakistan where the hunt for Al Qaeda's leadership begins with the hunt for the perfect safe house. John also begins to coordinate his team with Pakistani intelligence (not a very trusting relationship). And then a tip comes in: Al Qaeda's number three, a terrorist with the nom de guerre Abu Zubaydah, has been spotted in Pakistan. John is tasked with coming up with the plan to capture Abu Zubaydah.

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THE BLURB: Aldrich Ames was a CIA counterintelligence officer who was convicted of espionage on behalf of the soviet Union and Russia in 1994. Ames was responsible for the arrest and eventual execution of numerous Soviet and Russian officials secretly working on behalf of US intellifence, and had compromised more highly classified CIA assets than any other intelligence officer at the time of his arrest. What caused Rich Ames to betray his craft and his country? Why does any spy go rogue?

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THE BLURB: With America - and the CIA - at war, everyone wants to fight, especially John. But, his skill sets aren't the required ones as the War On Terror begins. The CIA, it turns out, had an actual plan to deal with Osama bin Laden. After settling some old business back in Greece, John begins to work on the CTC's leadership, looking for a way to in to Afghanistan. And then one opens up...

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THE BLURB: After Joanne kidnaps John's two sons - instead of making them available for his six weeks summer vacation with them - John uses his espionage skills to track them all down. Hothead that he is, rather than wait for the legal system to work to his benefit, John nearly ruins everything by iniating a "hostage situation" of his own. At work, John's time in the penalty box is about to get truncated - as more and more Agency resources get focused on a terrorist quickly growing in prominence on the Agency's radar: Osama bin Laden.

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THE BLURB: Back in America, John settles in to a year or so "in the penalty box" because of what happened in Athens. John's divorce from Joanne gets complicated by Joanne's brinksmanship. But John does what he must to keep himself in his sons' life. Despite all the Life complications, John scores a small succuss at work. Whatever joy that produces gets undercut when Joanne kidnaps the boys.

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THE BLURB: In this episode, John chats with former CIA officer turned wildly successful novelist BARRY EISLER about spying and how it lends itself to storytelling. After a three year stint as a covert officer in the CIA’s Directorate of Operations, Barry worked as a technology lawyer and startup executive in Silicon Valley and Japan, earned a black belt at the Kodokan Judo Institute and began writing great, award-winning thrillers including the #1 bestsellers Livia Lone, The Night Trade, and The Killer Collective. John and Barry discuss the current state of spies, spying and spycraft - and whether it might be over for straight humint and the human spies who cultivate it.

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THE BLURB: John's assignment in Athens comes to a head when an assassination attempt on him goes awry with tragic results. But that merely compounds the situation at home when John learns - from his 6 year old son - that his wife's been cheating on him.

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THE BLURB: The very things that made Athens a great counter-terrorism assignment also made it incredibly dangerous. John's intensive training was designed to make him paranoid. It succeeded. Not all threats were terrorism. Some were just local criminals being criminals. Still, living in Athens was mostly a joy. There was ample good food and culture. But the threat of violence was both persistent and pervasive. So was the paranoia.

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THE BLURB: When John turned his back on being a deskbound analyst in favor of risking his neck out in the field, he knew he'd made the right decision. Blowing things up - including cars - and playing spy games made him incredibly happy. Who wouldn't be happy? In this episode, John takes you way behind the scenes at the CIA's "James Bond Academy" - an actual place (just not with that name) where the CIA trains its agents how to be the best spies they can be.

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THE BLURB: On the one hand, being assigned to handle counter-terrorism in Athens was a dream job. On the other, it had nightmarish implications and very real dangers up to and including assassination. That's what happened to a former Athens station chief, the highly regarded Richard Welch. A Greek terrorist group assassinated Welch outside his residence after he attended a Christmas party. In this episode, John comes face to face with Welch's shadow - and begins to sense something of his own future in it.

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THE BLURB: Both spying and the subject of this episode - cemeteries - piqued John's youthful curiosity at roughly the same age. Spying, of course, became John's vocation. But John's love for cemeteries - especially for the people buried in them - became a very happy ridealong. Working around the world for the CIA meant visiting cemeteries around the world. In this episode, we preview "GRAVE CONCERNS", a new podcast series that we'll begin dropping in March 2026 (that's soon)! The podcast is based on a brand new book John's written - "REMAINS OF THE DAY: The Definitive Guide to the Historic Cemeteries of Washington, DC" which also will drop in March 2026. As we hope you'll agree, graveyards should have no secrets!

SHOW NOTES

In this episode, John visits The Rock Creek Cemetery in northewest Washington, DC. Among the graves he'll visit: John Harlan Marshall, Alice Longworth, Arkady Nikolayevich Shevchenko and Gore Vidal.

To pre-order "REMAINS OF THE DAY", please visit

For more great podcasts like Dead Drop, please visit https://costardandtouchstone.com/

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THE BLURB: When his assignment to Bahrain ends, John finds himself back at CIA HQ in Langley, settling in to life as an analyst - a bored drone at a boring desk. It doesn't take long for John to hanker instead for something more satisfying: something in operations - out in the field. Something a little more dangerous...

SHOW NOTES

For more great podcasts like Dead Drop, please visit https://costardandtouchstone.com/

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THE BLURB: In this episode, we preview a new podcast series that we'll start dropping in Spring 2026 - "A Spy's Guide To" which will look at the great cities of the world (and the not-so-great) entirely from the perspective of spies and spying. It'll be like a travel guide for spooks. Since spies have to live in these cities (in addition to working them), we'll approach and appreciate our first city guide - to SOFIA, BULGARIA - as we will all of these cities - like a spy would. A City is a place to recruit agents, locate safe houses and begin collecting secrets.

SHOW NOTES

For more great podcasts like Dead Drop, please visit https://costardandtouchstone.com/

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THE BLURB: At first glance Bahrain was a good starting assignment. It was a veritable paradise, a great place to learn without much pressure. The US Navy was based there. And, it was a literal paradise. Working (on the surface) for the State Department, John pissed off Bahrain's Prime Minister while charming its Emir. The days of no pressure ended with a literal bang when terrorists blew up the Khobar Tower, a building housing US Air Force personnel in nearby Saudi Arabia, plunging John into action.

SHOW NOTES

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THE BLURB: Among the things that make spies tick is fear. Fear of being caught - and then tortured and/or killed. Stories like Beirut Station Chief Bill Buckley's are what keep spies like John Kiriakou up at night. Buckley came to the CIA from the US Army where he was a highly decorated special forces officer. Once recruited by the CIA, Buckley served successfully in places like Cambodia, Egypt and Pakistan. Beirut was another story - a difficult one filled with questions.

SHOW NOTES

You can find Fred Burton and Samuel Katz's Beirut Rules here -

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31019046-beirut-rules?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wsCKRCuTSK&rank=1

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THE BLURB: From the time he was 5 or 6 and became aware of him, John always admired and wanted to know folk singer and activist Pete Seeger. In fact, John vowed to become friends with the legend - which, in fact, John did: he and Pete did become friends. How an event that echoed across Pete's life also echoed across John's.

SHOW NOTES

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THE BLURB: Having been recruited into the CIA by legendary CIA officer Jerry Post - and by applying himself completely - John's CIA career took off with a bullet. If ever there was a CIA Golden Boy, John was it. That fact that he came up as a golden boy would prove ironic in the end. In this episode, John goes from briefing the President in the Oval Office to the theatre of war itself: Iraq. It's good to be a "Golden Boy". But it isn't all good.

SHOW NOTES

For more great podcasts like Dead Drop, please visit https://costardandtouchstone.com/

You can find "Just The Photographer with David Swanson" here - https://shows.acast.com/just-the-photographer-with-david-swanson

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THE BLURB: Talk about getting thrown into the deep end of the pool! When Iraq and Kuwait - John's new "area of expertise" - suddenly go to war (Iraq invaded Kuwait), John unexpectedly finds himself called to the White House - where, as a 25 year old newbie - he's asked to brief President George H W Bush, Vice President Dan Quayle and the the intelligence chiefs on what Saddam will do next. That's what happens when you become the CIA's Sadam Whisperer. Or his shrink.

SHOW NOTES

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THE BLURB: After a graduate class professor recruits John, he throws himself into a mystifying series of tests all seemingly designed to trip up his desire to become a spy for America. How exactly does an institution like the CIA train people to spy for it? Welcome to your first class!

SHOW NOTES

For more great podcasts like Dead Drop, please visit https://costardandtouchstone.com/

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THE BLURB: John Kiriakou knew when he was 9 years old that he wanted to be a spy. Plenty of people want to be spies but only a few ever actually becomespies. In E1, John tells his origin story. Where he and his family came from had a lot to do with his success as an intelligence officer working in dangerous places. From wanting to be James Bond to actually becoming something a lot like Bond. It's "How To Be A Spy, Part 1".

SHOW NOTES

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To listen to Just The Photographer, please visit Just The Photographer with David Swanson - Hosted by David Swanson

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THE BLURB: Enjoy this brief preview of "John Kiriakou's Dead Drop: What Makes A Spy Tick" - a brand new podcast that will take you deep inside the mind of one of the best known spies in the whole world: former CIA officer John Kiriakou. You've heard former spies talk about spying, but you've never heard a spy go this deep into a spy's psyche - starting with his own.

SHOW NOTES

For more information and an even deeper dive into the show - jkdeaddrop.com

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