Macro N Cheese

** Discuss this episode with us at Macro ‘n Chill, our virtual community gathering. Tuesday, September 15, at 8pm ET/5pmPT. Use link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/jBqKoQB6RtOjQPE8cW17ew

This week we’re having a long-overdue reunion with John T. Harvey, known to our listeners as the Cowboy Economist because of his plainspoken, accessible way of explaining complex ideas. John talks with Steve about his latest book, US Business Cycles 1954–2020.The conversationchallenges mainstream economic theory that treats markets as naturally self-correcting, when in fact unemployment, inequality, oligarchy, and recurring crises are outcomes generated by the system itself.

The discussion brings MMT’s insights about money and real resources into direct contact with the question of class power. If the federal government can finance full employment, and a Job Guarantee could give workers a genuine alternative to precarious private employment, why don’t we do it? John and Steve agree on the central contradiction: the obstacles are not primarily economic or technical. They lie in the distribution of power and in institutions structured around the interests of capital. The challenge, then, is not simply figuring out what is economically possible, but understanding what prevents us from doing it.

John T. Harvey is the Hal Wright Professor of Economics in the Department of Economics at Texas Christian University. He is a well-known heterodox scholar who has published extensively, including two books: Currencies, Crises and Capital Flows (2009) and Contending Perspectives in Economics (2020 2nd edition). His most recent book is US Business Cycles 1954–2020, published by Cambridge University Press (December 2025). He has earned numerous awards for teaching and research and his work focuses on exchange rates and business cycles.

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They say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist. Capitalism pulled off something even trickier: convincing us it’s just the way things work.

Historian Andrew Hartman joins Steve to examine how American public education became a battleground in the struggle over class, ideology, and political consciousness. Drawing on his book Education and the Cold War: The Battle for the American School, Andrew traces how the radical possibilities of the 1930s, including militant teacher organizing and encouraging students to question capitalist individualism, were systematically narrowed by the Red Scare. Schools increasingly shifted toward preparing students to adapt to the existing order.

Steve and Andrew explore the crucial role of liberal anti-communism, the Cold War equating of capitalism with democracy and freedom, and an educational culture that treats capitalism as ordinary reality while Marxism and socialism must continually justify their existence. The result is a powerful look at cultural hegemony: how the boundaries of what Americans consider reasonable, possible, or even thinkable were constructed, and why so much of that Cold War ideological architecture remains with us today.

Andrew Hartman is a distinguished professor of history at Illinois State University and the author of several books, including Education and the Cold War: The Battle for the American School; A War for the Soul of America: A History of the Culture Wars; and Karl Marx in America, out in 2025 with the University of Chicago Press.

His website: Andrew Hartman

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrewghartman

Twitter/X: @HartmanAndrew

IG: https://www.instagram.com/professorandrewhartman/

BlueSky: @andrewhartman.bsky.social

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-hartman-45045610/

Erald Kolasi returns to the podcast to remind us that AI doesn’t simply exist weightlessly in the ephemeral cloud. Drawing on his research into its global energy and emissions impact, Erald traces AI’s vast material infrastructure, from mining, semiconductors, water, energy, and logistics to data centers and power generation. His life-cycle analysis reveals a monster-sized ecological footprint, in contrast to conventional estimates that focus narrowly on electricity consumed at data centers.

But this goes deeper than technology. Steve and Erald examine AI through the dynamics of capital accumulation, monopoly power, financial speculation, imperialism, and the intimate relationship between corporations and the capitalist state. Its explosive growth reflects decisions about who controls society’s resources and what they are used for. The conversation closes by imagining a radically different trajectory: publicly controlled technology directed toward reducing necessary labor and meeting human needs rather than enriching private capital and accelerating ecological destruction. What kind of political economic system would this require?

AI is the subject, but capitalism is the story.

Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work at his website, eraldkolasi.com.

Subscribe to his Substack: https://substack.com/@technodynamics

**Join us on Tuesday to discuss this episode in our online gathering, Macro 'n Chill. August 25, 8pm ET / 5pm PT. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/NGxWl6qMTaKXPhR51uHkwA

If public power repeatedly stands behind private finance when it fails, shouldn't that same power be directed toward employment, productive capacity, and human need? So why isn't it?

Economist Eric Tymoigne returns to the podcast to examine the rapid growth of private credit and private equity through Hyman Minsky’s theory of money manager capitalism. Eric argues that the expansion of payment-in-kind interest, securitization, layered leverage, and dependence on rising asset prices are signs that Ponzi finance is becoming increasingly embedded in private markets, making the financial system more fragile. He warns that efforts to “democratize” these markets by opening them to ordinary savers will broaden the pool of investors available to absorb risks and losses (which should really be borne by the wealthy.)

The conversation then moves from financial instability to political economy. Through an MMT lens, Eric explains the enormous potential capacity of a currency-issuing government to contain financial crises, sustain incomes, and direct investment toward public purposes. Again we must ask why it doesn't happen. This raises the deeper question of whose purposes the state serves. Steve and Eric discuss public investment, community banking, the federal job guarantee, the influence of wealth on political decision-making, and the limits of electoral democracy in a capitalist system.

Eric Tymoigne is an Associate Professor of Economics at Lewis & Clark College, Portland, Oregon; and Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. His areas of teaching and research include macroeconomics, money and banking, and monetary economics.

Find him on Twitter @tymoignee

Daniel Tutt and returning guest C. Derick Varn join Steve to discuss their new book, The People Are Not One: Socialist Strategy After Left Populism, whose title states its thesis outright. When the left speaks of a unified people confronting a corrupt elite, it conceals the real stratifications inside the working class and borrows a Manichean framework that functions identically on the right. Their argument: since 2008, from Occupy through Syriza, Podemos, Corbyn, and Sanders, left populism has served to extinguish the class antagonism at the center of socialism, operating as a new Popular Front in which liberalism holds the upper hand.

The conversation lands directly on this show's own history. Varn is blunt about his long-running argument with MMT advocates: he never disputed the nature of the currency, he disputed the analysis of power. They are not going to let you have a Job Guarantee, because it removes their ability to discipline workers. Steve agrees, describing his own path out of economism and the trap of thinking a basket of policies and a few more progressives in office adds up to a threat to capital.

On class consciousness, Varn is careful with a term he calls one of the most abused in socialist history. The reason to organize around the working class is not its victimhood. It is that the working class already possesses, collectively, the skills to reproduce society. The differences within the working class are resolvable. The difference between the working class and those who live off its labor is not.

They close on electoralism. Varn's formulation: electoralism is a tactic, not a principle. Democracy is the principle. Tutt points to Lenin's actual position, that ballots are justified only alongside extra-parliamentary means and on terms of strict class independence. The Popular Front let liberalism lead. The United Front did not.

If you've followed this show from Ep 218 - Beware! the Counter-Revolution with C. Derick Varn,throughEp 318 - The Death of the Left? with Simon Winlow & Steve Hall, Ep 371 - You Can't Vote Away Colonialism with Fadhel Kaboub,and Ep 388 - From Theory to Praxis: Lenin's Revolutionary Formula with Breht O'Shea, this episode is the strategic argument those conversations kept circling.

Daniel Tutt is the author of Psychoanalysis and the Politics of the Family and How to Read Like a Parasite. His writing has been featured in Jacobin, Current Affairs, Philosophy Now and Aeon Magazine. He is the host of the Emancipations podcast and study group collective. Find him on Twitter @TuttReal or his Substack: https://danieltutt.substack.com/about

C. Derick Varn is an author, poet, and educator, and host of the podcast Varn Vlog, where he publishes podcasts and series on the great thinkers, and interviews authors and academics. He is the author of Apocalyptics and Liberation and All That Bright Etc. He has been a union rep for the past six years. Find him on Twitter @TheRealVarnVlog or his podcast https://varnvlog.buzzsprout.com/

This week, Hamza Hamouchene returns to the podcast to talk about Towards Palestinian Liberation: Global Perspectives on Anti-Colonial Resistance and Solidarity, the new collection he co-edited with Abi Bae. Palestine, he argues, cannot be understood simply as a “conflict” or humanitarian crisis, but as a national liberation struggle against settler colonialism embedded in a larger system of Western imperialism and global capitalism.

Hamza traces Israel’s role within the imperial order, the class interests of Arab ruling elites, and the political economy of occupation and dispossession. Drawing connections to Algeria, Vietnam, South Africa, and other anti-colonial struggles, he emphasizes the revolutionary potential of international solidarity and the necessity of connecting struggles against colonialism, capitalism, and imperialism.

Steve brings MMT into the discussion, arguing that an analysis of real resources is incomplete without confronting the imperial power and violence through which those resources are controlled. The conversation ultimately points beyond solidarity with Palestine toward a larger project of liberation. As Hamza wraps it up:

“We need to be in solidarity with movements that are fighting for their rights, fighting against land grabs, against extractivism, against neocolonial plunder. Be with the Palestinians in their struggle for liberation. Because what we want, Steve, is not just a liberated Palestine. We want a liberated Palestine in a liberated world.”

Too often, mainstream narratives on Palestine are narrowly focused on Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. Solidarity is reduced to a matter of human rights and international law violations. Hamza stands firm in his refusal to treat Palestine as an exception to the global struggle against imperialism.

Dr. Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA) and the North African Food Sovereignty Network (Siyada). He is currently the Arab region Programme Coordinator at the Transnational Institute (TNI). His work is focused on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and energy justice in the Arab region. He is the author/editor of five books: “Towards Palestinian Liberation: Global Perspectives on Anti-Colonial Resistance & Solidarity” (2026), “Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region” (2023), “The Arab Uprisings: A decade of struggles” (2022), “The Struggle for Energy Democracy in the Maghreb” (2017) and The Coming Revolution to North Africa: The Struggle for Climate Justice (2015).

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Ashwin Shantha joins Steve for a discussion challenging Western narratives on China – particularly the all-too-common opinions that dismiss its socialist character. This episode makes the case that China is a genuine socialist project where the state disciplines capital rather than being governed by it.

Ashwin illustrates how China's green industrial revolution—driven by rapid progress in electric vehicles and renewable energy—marks a qualitative break from capitalist development paths. Unlike the Global North's extractive model, China's centrally planned approach prioritizes use-value objectives (clean air, energy self-reliance, and technological independence) over exchange-value maximization. The state constructs markets strategically, using mechanisms like the dual-credit policy to force both domestic and foreign automakers toward sustainable production targets.

While the episode isn’t focused on MMT, it highlights how China's monetary sovereignty enables fiscal space for long-term industrial planning. The nation's ability to issue its own currency and direct credit toward clean development highlights a crucial distinction from Global South countries trapped in IMF-imposed structural adjustment programs. This self-determined policy space, which is denied to nations like India and much of Africa, allows Beijing to absorb neoliberal shocks while maintaining state control over the economy.

China's sustainable growth model is anti-imperialist in two key ways. First, energy independence reduces reliance on imported fossil fuels that expose the country to geopolitical leverage through choke points like the Malacca Strait. Second, technological autonomy focuses on developing indigenous productive forces that break the Western monopoly over clean technology.

By keeping private capital subordinate to state priorities, China shows that socialist modernization offers a workable alternative for the Global South, avoiding the de-development and resource plunder that characterizes Western industrialization.

China's model may still have some contradictions, but it continues to show what is possible when state power is wielded in the interests of the working class.

Ashwin Shantha (they/them) is a doctoral student whose research focuses broadly on the political economy of sovereign development in the global South, focusing specifically on China and South Asia. Some of their existing work has researched South-South development cooperation between China and Pakistan through the Belt and Road Initiative, as well as, more recently, China's state-led green industrial revolution in the electric vehicles and renewable energy sectors. Ashwin is also the host of the International Solidarity Podcast, which focuses on the politics of anti-imperialism and socialism in the global South.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@journalofintlsolidarity

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/journalofintlsolidarity

Substack: https://intlsolidarity.substack.com/

This week we’re releasing an episode from Scotland‘s Political Economy podcast. Host William Thomson invited Steve to join him to compare and reflect on their favorite interviews and the thinkers who most shaped their worldviews – from Clara Mattei and Fadhel Kaboub to Bill Mitchell, Jason Hickel, and Marxist-Leninist thinkers. They explore the limits of MMT without class analysis, the capture of academic and political institutions by oligarchic interests, and the importance of historical materialism, Gramsci, and Lenin in understanding how power truly operates.

The episode looks at the evolution of the two independent podcasters, their intellectual awakenings, and their shared conviction that the fight is not for better policy within capitalism, but for a fundamental transformation of the system itself. And for listeners to Macro N Cheese, it provides insight into Steve’ seven-year journey, taking the podcast from a strict MMT focus to a broader political economic analysis rooted in class struggle, revolutionary theory, and a critical view of electoral politics.

William Thomson is a political economist focused on the political economy of Scotland. His work considers how the economy actually operates, how decisions are made, and how power, institutions, and policy shape outcomes across Scotland.

Support his work atpatreon.com/Scotlandspoliticaleconomy

@Williamgallus on X

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"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." Steve's guest, Breht O’Shea of Rev Left Radio and Red Menace podcast, believes that dedicating one's life to fighting for this vision, even without knowing the outcome, is more meaningful than pursuing capital's vision of wealth and status.

Steve invited Breht to help tackle one of the most misunderstood and weaponized texts in Marxist theory: Vladimir Lenin's Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder,a book sometimes misused as a cudgel to pressure leftists into voting for the Democratic Party.

To set the record straight, Breht places the 1920 pamphlet in its proper historical context. It was written after the successful Bolshevik Revolution to advise European socialist movements on how to avoid fatal mistakes.

Together, Breht and Steve break down Lenin's dual critique: the ultra-left "infantile" error of purity-spiraled sectarianism, and the right-wing "opportunist" error of liquidating the revolutionary movement into bourgeois liberal politics. Lenin's strategic genius lies in maintaining firm revolutionary principles while remaining tactically flexible.

The discussion extends beyond the text to cover the necessity of organization and discipline (democratic centralism), the constant threat of counter-revolution, the failure of social democracy, and how fascism functions as capitalism's immune response to left-wing threats.

Breht O’Shea is the host of Rev Left Radio, the co-host of the Red Menace podcast, and author of the upcoming book “Letters to a Young Revolutionary” published by Iskra Books. Breht is also a longtime organizer in Omaha, Nebraska, a union electrician, and married father of three.

**Tuesday evening, at 8 pm ET/5 pm PT, we’ll be listening to this episode and discussing it during our online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill. Bring your thoughts, your insights, your questions. July 7th at at 8 pm ET/5 pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/ay2YXuCvRLOp1dV5yh8HKw

Women in politics, media, and public life are often placed at the center of the spectacle while being silenced on the issues that matter.

Media scholar Allison Butler talks to Steve about her book, Judgment of Gender, exposing how patriarchal power and capitalist media institutions weaponize pop culture and construct narratives that fixate on appearance, personality, and scandal while obscuring questions of class and power. The conversation reveals a core dialectical contradiction: women are centered in media only to be silenced.Their personhood is reduced to superficial tropes.

The critiques of political candidates Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, and even Nikki Haley, focus on pantsuits, headbands, voice, and age instead of their actual policies, their service to capital, and their imperialist actions (hello? Clinton's role in Libya? “We came, we saw, he died.”) The media's obsession with superficiality silences substantive class-based critique.

Allison’s highlights the crisis of missing and murdered Indigenous women. This is critical. It is not a fringe issue but a stark example of state-sanctioned violence and the super-exploitation of the most oppressed. That the legacy media's silence on this horror renders these lives invisible is a feature, not a bug, of a system that treats Indigenous lives as disposable

Allison Butler is a Senior Lecturer, Associate Chair, and the Director of the Media Literacy Certificate Program in the Department of Communication at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, where she teaches courses on critical media literacy and representations of education in the media. She serves as Vice President on the board of the Media Freedom Foundation. She is the author of numerous articles and books on media literacy, and she is a co-author of multiple practical resources for media literacy education.

IG: @atbutler5

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allison-butler-190882108/

Project Censored IG, X, Facebook: @projectcensored

Modern Monetary Theory explains how sovereign currency systems work, but it doesn’t tell us who controls the state or whose interests state power serves. Economist Bill Mitchell suggests that a dialectical understanding of capitalism is essential for answering that question.

He and Steve discuss MMT not as a policy prescription but as a lens to dissect the capitalist state, not a neutral arbiter but an instrument of class conflict. Bill traces the motion of capital from the post-WWII "Golden Age," which was a temporary compromise forced by a strong working class. He takes us through what he calls the neoliberal counter-revolution, epitomized by the Powell Memorandum, wherein capital consciously exercised control to reverse social gains and redistribute income upward.

The government’s “fiscal crisis” is an ideological fiction (a fetish of money) that obscures the material reality: a currency-issuing government faces no inherent financial constraint, only real resource limits.

From the erosion of labor power and the rise of think tanks to militarism, financialization, climate crisis, and AI-driven social control, Bill contends that today's crises are not policy mistakes but the logical outcomes of capitalism's extreme contradictions. The conversation explores why understanding monetary sovereignty is only the beginning, but reformism and electoralism are insufficient. The material conditions are driving toward a necessary rupture.

William Mitchell is Professor of Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE) at the University of Newcastle, NSW Australia. He is also the Docent Professor of Global Political Economy at the University of Helsinki, Finland, and Guest International Professor at Kyoto University, Japan.

He is one of the founders of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). His daily blog is one of the world’s leading economics blogs.

Follow Bill’s work and find his books at https://billmitchell.org/blog/

** Don't forget about Tuesday’s Macro ‘n Chill, the online gathering where we listen to the podcast together and discuss the issues it covers. Bring your insights, questions, and good-faith disagreements. June 23, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/yI-UE7W1TcGglJSZ2l-Ffg

As much as we'd like to blame Donald Trump for the near-destruction of higher education, the rot set in long before he ever set foot in the White House. Political analyst and author Nolan Higdon is back to talk with Steve about his new book, MAGA Academy: How Corporatism Paved the Way for the Hostile Takeover of Higher Ed.

Nolan makes the case that Trump's hostile takeover of the academy was only possible because fifty years of neoliberal corporatization had already reduced universities to profit-driven enterprises. (He also points out that this was spearheaded largely by so-called liberal Democrats.) From the weakening of faculty power and the crushing weight of student debt to the erosion of academic freedom and the treatment of students as mere customers, the stage was set long before MAGA became a political force. If higher education had a civic mission, it has been gutted. Critical inquiry is replaced by vapid careerism and market logic.

Steve and Nolan examine how federal funding and corporate influence turned campuses into compliant institutions, more concerned with their bottom line. Steve brings the crucial macro-economic, challenging the false scarcity that puts the kibosh on public investment in education. As he often reminds us, the federal government is the issuer of the currency. It is not revenue-constrained, yet we continue to accept austerity and tuition hikes as if there were no other way.

The conversation highlights how higher education reflects broader class relations and power structures within capitalism. MAGA's higher education agenda is part of a longer historical process that leads to today's intensified struggles over knowledge, ideology, and power.

Nolan Higdonis a prominent political analyst, author, and media scholar. He teaches in Merrill College and the Education Department at the University of California, Santa Cruz. A veteran of the "corporate university" era, Higdon has authored numerous books, including The Anatomy of Fake News and Surveillance Education. His latest work, MAGAcademy, exposes the bipartisan neoliberal roots of the modern authoritarian shift in American higher education.

Find his work on Substack: nolanhigdon.substack.com

@NolanHigdonCML on X

** Come to Macro ‘n Chill, the online gathering where we listen to the podcast together and discuss what we learned and where we agree or disagree. Tuesday, June 16, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/Qm85bGIOSF2H_uNMwOmWtQ

Ecosocialist author, Ian Angus, talks with Steve about his book Metabolic Rifts: Capitalism's Assault on the Earth System.They explore the deep, sometimes invisible ways that capitalism disrupts the planet’s fundamental life cycles –– from soil depletion and artificial fertilizers to the carbon cycle driving global warming.

Ian traces the concept of “metabolic rift” from Marx and Engels through a long socialist lineage, making the case that ecological critique has always been central to the Marxist tradition. (Indeed, some Marxists might argue that “eco-” is an unnecessary qualifier; “socialism” is enough!)

Steve brings up the MMT basics challenging the austerity narrative that blocks ecological reconstruction. He reminds us that the state, as the currency issuer, can de-commodify the essentials of life, namely food, water, housing, and healthcare. However, as Ian bluntly states: “The problem is that it’s not our government, it’s their government.” Reformism and electoralism are dead ends.

While listeners may disagree with some of Ian's interpretations of Soviet history, those comments do not negate the episode's compelling analysis that capitalism’s DNA demands endless accumulation and profit. Combating the ecological crisis is inseparable from the struggle to overcome capitalism.

Ian Angus is founder and editor of the online ecosocialist journal, Climate & Capitalism and a founding member of the Global Ecosocialist Network. Among his many books are The War Against the Commons: Dispossession and Resistance in the Making of Capitalism (Monthly Review Press, 2023), A Redder Shade of Green: Intersections of Science and Socialism (Monthly Review Press, 2017) and Facing the Anthropocene: Fossil Capitalism and the Crisis of the Earth System (Monthly Review Press, 2016). His most recent is Metabolic Rifts: Capitalism’s Assault on the Earth System. (Monthly Review Press, 2026),

@ecosocialism1 on X

Join us Tuesday, June 9th, at Macro ‘n Chill, the online gathering where we’ll listen to and discuss this episode. 8pm ET/5pm PT. Register with this link: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/L40tjKhOSCGCJTR-R-QJvw

The title of Robin Andersen’s upcoming book (published next week) is The Complicit Lens: US Media Coverage of the Genocide in Gaza. You can see why Steve wanted to talk with her. Their conversation looks at how the corporate media helped manufacture consent for Israel’s war on Gaza by erasing historical context. It is tasked with enforcing cultural hegemony à la Gramsci, and defending the interests of the imperial core.

Robin goes into examples of how the media has been used to erase Palestinian history and justify war crimes. Terms like "occupation," "apartheid," and "genocide" are scrubbed from discourse to maintain ideological control. It allows the ongoing dispossession and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to go unchallenged.

As MMTers we understand – and Steve emphasizes – how state resources are mobilized without hesitation for war and geopolitical control, while austerity is imposed at home as a political choice rather than an economic necessity.

In this time where journalists are under attack (literally) the episode urges solidarity with truth-tellers like Francesca Albanese who confront imperialist violence.

Robin Andersen is professor emerita of media studies at Fordham University and an award-winning author of a dozen single- and co-authored books. Her work examines film, television, and media coverage of war, the environment, politics, and elections. She edits the Routledge Focus Book Series on Media and Humanitarian Action, serves as a Project Censored Judge, and contributes to the annual State of the Free Press. Andersen is on the Board of Directors of Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), where she also writes regularly, and is an Izzy Award Judge for the Park Center for Independent Media. Her writing has appeared in CounterPunch, LA Progressive, The Progressive, Salon, Common Dreams, and ScheerPost, among others.

@MediaPhiled on X

**Every Tuesday we hold an online gathering where we listen to and talk about the episode while building community. Share your insights and questions as we educate ourselves and each other. Macro ‘n Chill, June 2, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/OEYtu7v-SciBITwiIWwdzw

A frequent theme of our podcast revolves around the contradiction between formal political rights and the material realities of the working class. This week, our guest Ida Susser talks to Steve about the French Yellow Vest movement as a reaction to the contradictions of late-stage financial capitalism which has systematically gutted the welfare state, dismantled public services in the provinces, and further abandoned the universalist promises of the French Republic.

Ida, an anthropologist, is author of the book The Yellow Vests and the Battle for Democracy: Taking to the Streets of Paris in the 21st Century.

Moving beyond the liberal fetish of the ballot box, the conversation explores how the Gilets Jaunes, or Yellow Vests, built horizontalist, leaderless power from the grassroots. They blockaded traffic circles, constructed makeshift commons, and forged bonds of class solidarity across regional and ethnic lines. Ida contrasts this bottom-up mobilization with the top-down, cultish nature of MAGA; she points out that the French movement’s refusal of vanguardism did not prevent it from “thresholding” into a broader, anti-neoliberal bloc.

Steve introduces the MMT lens to expose the ideological confusion around taxation and public spending.

Is it possible the Yellow Vests’ defense of the social wage and their rage against the Macronist oligarchy represent a necessary, if incomplete, rehearsal for working-class power?

Ida Susser is Distinguished Professor of Anthropology at Hunter College and the Graduate Center, CUNY. She has conducted ethnographic research in the U.S., Southern Africa and Puerto Rico, France and Spain with respect to urban social movements and the urban commons, gender, the global AIDS epidemic and environmental movements. She is the author of numerous books, chapters, and articles, including The Tumultuous Politics of Scale (Routledge Press, 2020) co-edited, and Norman Street: Poverty and Politics in an Urban Neighborhood (Oxford University Press, 2012. Her most recent is The Yellow Vests and the Battle for Democracy: Taking to the Streets of Paris in the 21st Century. (Routledge, 2026).

**Will we see you at Macro ‘n Chill on Tuesday? You’re invited to join our online gathering where we listen to the episode together and share our insights and questions. May 26 at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/UHE6NoSDRbibqXYAeJJ8gQ

Disinformation is neither an accident nor excess; it is the normal functioning of late capitalism’s media apparatus. Our friend Mickey Huff, executive director of Project Censored, talks with Steve about the machinery of modern propaganda, algorithmic control, and billionaire-owned media ecosystems. Their conversation highlights key tensions of a base and superstructure in decay. Mickey lays out the historical continuity of media manipulation, and they bring up surveillance as a class weapon and electoral distraction as a dead end. (Mickey may be the first guest to mention Gilens and Page before Steve does.)

From Silicon Valley oligarchs and tech monopolies to the collapse of local journalism and the rise of curated realities, Steve and Mickey frame today’s information war as a struggle over who gets to shape “common sense.” Critical media literacy is not about neutral fact-checking but about exposing whose interests a narrative serves.

Mickey Huff is Executive Director of Project Censored, President of the nonprofit Media Freedom Foundation, and Distinguished Director of the Park Center for Independent Media at Ithaca College

Find his full bio at https://www.projectcensored.org/mickey-huff/

@ProjectCensored on X

** This Tuesday, come to Macro ‘n Chill, our online gathering. Bring your insights and questions about this episode. May 19 at 8pm ET/5pm PT Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/AIz56SKPT6Gfh0pXhs3PTw

You may know Luna Nguyen as Luna Oi, the YouTuber and member of the Non-Compete content collective who creates videos about culture, history, and politics in Vietnam, as well as panels and interviews with indigenous activists and comrades in the Global South.

Steve asked her to come onto the podcast because, as a Vietnamese Marxist-Leninist, she can take us beyond US propaganda and into the lived history of Vietnamese resistance. The conversation goes into Ho Chi Minh's revolutionary development, the application of Marxism-Leninism to Vietnam's reality, French colonialism and Japanese fascism, the 1945 famine and August Revolution, US betrayal after WWII, the fabricated Gulf of Tonkin incident, the nature of the "Resistance War Against Imperialist USA," and the post-war embargo and debt extortion.

Luna shares deeply personal family history – her grandfather's death in the Tet Offensive and her mother's childhood survival of a US bombing – grounding the analysis in living memory. She also connects Ho Chi Minh Thought to dialectical and historical materialism, making the case that revolutionary movements must emerge from concrete material conditions.

Born and raised in Vietnam, Luna Nguyen is a writer and creator on a mission to share her country’s perspective with the world. She’s currently tackling the ambitious project of translating Vietnam’s official Marxist-Leninist philosophy curriculum into English. In addition to her translation work, she also produces YouTube documentaries that dive into the intersection of Vietnamese culture and politics.

Check out her channel https://www.youtube.com/LunaOi/

Free E-books available at https://www.banyanhouse.org/shop/

** This Tuesday, May 12, come to Macro ‘n Chill, our online gathering where we listen to and discuss this episode. Bring your questions and insights. 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/rn_HAqgaSRGdj8W2UX9aKw

Did you think we had abandoned MMT? Well, after a few weeks of tackling some rather prickly topics, we’re back to strictly non-controversial macroeconomics. Heh heh. Just kidding. Don’t get too comfortable.

Our old friend Randy Wray is back, bringing his somewhat optimistic belief that a sound reality-based agenda might possibly succeed in the upcoming Congressional elections. But more on that later. First, he and Steve need to dissect Trump’s latest imperialist venture against Iran and expose the bipartisan lie that there are just enough of your tax dollars to pay for war; when it comes to affording social programs, the cupboard is bare.

Claims of scarcity are pure ideology. MMT has taught us that the federal government faces no dollar constraints. The real cost of war is measured in diverted labor, wasted resources, destroyed infrastructure, and the steady cannibalization of society’s productive capacity. Not to mention human lives, disabled veterans, and a chain reaction leading to starvation in the Global South.

Back to Randy’s guarded optimism, which Steve does not share. Rather than smooth over their differences, they lean into them.

Randy believes an anti-neoliberal program could win congressional seats. It would require candidates to break out of the fiscal austerity frame. Steve counters by referring to the Gilens and Page study – showing policy has near-zero correlation with popular will – and a class-lens analysis of manufactured consent. He sees a theatrical oligarchy, not a reformable political system. Since both parties serve capital, there is no electoral path. No possibility of reallocating resources from bombers to bread.

The conversation represents an unresolved, essential tension inside the MMT-Marxist synthesis: is monetary sovereignty a tool for working-class liberation blocked only by bad ideas, or is the entire political theater designed to ensure those ideas are never acted upon?

L. Randall Wray is a Senior Scholar and Professor of Economics at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, and Emeritus Professor at University of Missouri-Kansas City. He is one of the developers of Modern Money Theory and his most recent book on the topic is Understanding Modern Money Theory: Money and Credit in Capitalist Economies (Elgar, 2025).

Find his work at https://www.levyinstitute.org/people/lrandall-wray/

** Macro ‘n Chill is our weekly online gathering where we listen to the podcast episode and talk about it among friends. This Tuesday, Jeremy of Proles Pod will be with us to answer questions. May 5 at 8pm ET/5pm PT Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/gCOXxGttQryRnQNq-A3NbA

This is Part 2 of Steve’s interview with Jeremy, co-host of Proles Pod, talking about their exhaustive series on the Stalin Eras. It's a nuanced, de-stigmatized discussion about Joseph Stalin and the political reality of the Soviet Union. They begin by dismantling Western misconceptions of dictatorship to explain the actual Leninist methodology of democratic centralism, contrasting it with Western parliamentary systems.

Rather than asking whether Joseph Stalin was good or evil, the conversation reframes the question entirely. It situates the Soviet project within the pressures of counter-revolution, imperial encirclement, and internal struggle, while investigating how decisions were actually made inside a socialist state. Jeremy calls out indefensible behavior and debunks long-standing myths. The result is a dialectical examination of power, democracy, and historical development.

Proles Pod is an explicitly anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist podcast run by four ADHD-addled individuals. Although the foundation of Proles was built on the topic of history, more recently they have branched out into theory, politics, and culture. You can find them anywhere fine podcasts are distributed.

Join their Patreon https://www.patreon.com/c/ProlesPod/posts

Check out a teaser for their series, The Stalin Eras: https://www.instagram.com/reels/DP81SiTjQry/

** Come to Macro ‘n Chill, our online community gathering, where we listen to and discuss the current episode. This week, Jeremy of Proles Pod will be joining us. If you have questions for him, bring them! Tuesday, April 28th, at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/G7ijDSVmTcKeDc82AAs0XQ

Last year, Proles Pod completed a multi-part series on The Stalin Eras. Now Jeremy, one of the co-hosts, joins Steve for a conversation about it, resulting in a two-part dialectical excavation of Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Project. The purpose of this exploration is neither to sanctify nor condemn, but to strip away bourgeois mythologies and ground the discussion in material conditions and collective processes.

In Part One, Jeremy and Steve look at democratic centralism, where rigorous debate is followed by unified action, then contrast it with the false choice offered by US electoral politics. They draw on Rosa Luxemburg, Julius Nyerere, and materialist analysis of US history (slavery, settler colonialism, Jim Crow as inspiration for Nazi laws), and agree that both Democrats and Republicans serve the same capitalist-oligarchic permanent state.

Proles Pod is an explicitly anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist podcast run by four ADHD-addled individuals. Although the foundation of Proles was built on the topic of history, more recently they have branched out into theory, politics, and culture. You can find them anywhere fine podcasts are distributed.

Join their Patreon https://www.patreon.com/c/ProlesPod/posts

Check out a teaser for The Stalin Eras https://www.instagram.com/reels/DP81SiTjQry/

** Questions about MMT? Thoughts about the episode? Come to our online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill. Tuesday, April 21, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/RkspaP0RSNajdc69bqUmkA

Jim Byrne of MMT101 is back for a conversation that moves beyond the technical mechanics of Modern Monetary Theory to ask the tough questions. While affirming MMT’s core insight that a currency-issuing government doesn’t face financial constraint, only real resource limits, they argue that this knowledge is politically neutered by the structures of capitalism.

Jim lays out a clear, accessible primer on how money actually works and breaks down the scarcity myth. But the real question isn’t can governments act, it’s who they serve when they do.

Looking at the failure of bourgeois democracy, they talk about cultural hegemony and neoliberal ideology as well as class struggle vs. gradualism. The discussion touches on Scotland as a colony of Westminster and the limits of referendums under an imperial state structure.

Ultimately, this is a dialogue that pushes beyond MMT’s insights and asks whether those tools can mean anything without a rupture in the underlying political and economic order.

Jim Byrne has developed an MMT foundation course aimed at beginners and intermediate learners as well as people who already know about economics but are curious about Modern Monetary Theory.

Follow his work and the MMT101 podcast at mmt101.substack.com

@MMT101DotORG on X

** This week’s Macro ‘n Chill might shake us up. Some of us, at least. Come discuss the episode with the community. Tues, April 14, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/PIf2VnjBS-mwX-Bd4BwWYQ

In a solo episode, Steve sets out to describe and explain some of the shifts in direction for Real Progressives and the podcast, mirroring his own changing perspective. He reflects on a decade or more of championing Modern Monetary Theory, while grappling with a dawning realization. Despite MMT’s crystal clear insights into sovereign currency with the potential for popular federal programs and public investment, the political system itself is a scam.

He describes a journey of discovery (yeah, we know that sounds corny) peeling away the layers to explain the Gilens and Page study and global events. Gaza, US foreign policy, austerity, racism, empire, ramping up of brutal law enforcement within the US... each question leads to another. Weekly guests for Macro N Cheese help provide answers. Significantly, they contribute to the building of an analysis. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Accepting that the US is not a functioning democracy but an oligarchy serving capital, Steve critiques electoralism as a false promise and diversion. He calls for building parallel institutions and class consciousness over 'vote harder' strategies. Real Progressives remains rooted in MMT while integrating revolutionary theory, resistance, and an unsentimental understanding of capitalism.

Steve Grumbine is founder and CEO of Real Progressives and host of Macro N Cheese podcast. Find his work at realprogressives.org and realprogressives.substack.com

@sdgrumbine on X

Join our community on Tuesday evening as we listen to and discuss this episode. April 7th at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/nkkVRy2JQbW2Eh4VDtcNHQ

Clara Mattei and her first book, The Capital Order, were hugely important to Real Progressives as we began to expand our focus from Modern Monetary Theory and investigate the political economy of the capitalist system.

Now she joins Steve to talk about her new book, Escape from Capitalism. They discuss how capitalism maintains itself through market dependence, exploitation, and austerity, and why escaping it requires building alternative institutions rather than relying on elections or reforms within the capitalist state.

Steve and Clara are largely aligned in their critique of the system, but there are some disagreements. They debate aspects of MMT, including how interest rates, state spending, and monetary sovereignty function across different contexts. Their differences open up a deeper discussion about the limits of reform, the state's role, and what meaningful change would require.

There is a reason elections cannot deliver emancipation. The capitalist state is structurally designed to insulate elites from popular control. Clara describes her practical organizing work with FREE (Forum for Real Economic Emancipation) in Tulsa, building horizontal assemblies, participatory budgeting campaigns, community land trusts, and mutual aid.

Steve touches on the concept of de-commodifying basic needs (housing, healthcare, food), to break market dependence. But then, capitalism would be unworkable.

Clara E. Mattei is Professor of Economics at The University of Tulsa and the Founding President of FREE: Forum for Real Economic Emancipation. She was previously associate professor at The New School for Social Research Economics Department and has been a fellow of the Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton. Her research contributes to the analysis and history of capitalism, exploring the critical relation between economic ideas and technocratic policy making.

Clara is author of The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism (University of Chicago Press, 2022), and the recently published Escape from Capitalism (Allen Lane, Penguin Press, and Simon & Schuster, January 2026), which will soon be translated into multiple languages, including French, German, and Italian.

Learn more @ freefreeforum.org, where she hosts the weekly FREE podcast.

@claraemattei on X

Carlos García Hernández, author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism Through Modern Monetary Theory,joins Steve to revisit their discussion of topics covered in his earlier visits to the podcast.

Their dialogue wrestles with a deceptively simple question: if we already have the monetary capacity to guarantee jobs, housing, and public goods, why does capitalism still dominate? Through a sharp exchange, Steve and Carlos explore whether Modern Monetary Theory can be a pathway to socialism or whether deeper structural barriers rooted in class power and imperial dominance stand in the way.

While there’s broad agreement on the failures of neoliberal capitalism and the need to subordinate economic power to political control, tensions emerge around strategy and theory. Carlos leans toward a vision of “fiat socialism” centered on access to goods and services and the transformative potential of monetary sovereignty, while Steve pushes harder on the limits of education alone, emphasizing class struggle, ideology, and the near-impossibility of reform within existing institutions.

The result is less a blueprint and more an investigation that forces us to confront not just what’s possible, but why it isn’t happening.

Carlos García Hernández is the founder and director of Lola Books, a publishing house that has introduced MMT to Spanish and German readers. He is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism Through Modern Monetary Theory.

@Carlos_G_H_ on X

** Tuesday evening, March 24, we’ll be listening to and discussing this episode in our online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/DeGM2oAyRt2O-Xsj1nc4IQ

Thomas Fazi joins Steve to dissect the geopolitical and ideological structures that have rendered Europe strategically subordinate to the United States. Thomas argues that NATO’s true purpose, from its inception, was not to defend Europe but to ensure its vassalization by keeping "the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down." He contends that the war in Ukraine was a deliberately provoked conflict designed by US planners to sever Europe’s economic and energy ties with Russia, forcing the EU into deeper dependency on American energy and military infrastructure.

The conversation goes into the weaponization of media narratives and the management of dissent through censorship and “acceptable” politics, connecting the cultural Cold War to today’s crisis of hegemony. Ukraine, Greenland, and Europe’s energy self-sabotage aren’t anomalies, they’re features of an imperial system that requires subordination abroad and confusion at home.

Thomas Fazi is a “journalist/writer/translator/socialist.” who lives in Italy. He is the co-director of Standing Army (2010), an award-winning feature-length documentary on US military bases featuring Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky; and the author of The Battle for Europe: How an Elite Hijacked a Continent – and How We Can Take It Back (2014) and Reclaiming the State: A Progressive Vision of Sovereignty for a Post-Neoliberal World (co-authored with Bill Mitchell, 2017). His articles have appeared in numerous online and printed publications.

Find his work on Substack: thomasfazi.com

@battleforeurope on X

** Join our community-building online gathering where we listen to the episode together and discuss it in a relaxed, supportive atmosphere. Tuesday, March 17, at 8pm ET/5pm PT. https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/o3miFIPmSAC2d46Vh14iBA

One of our favorite guests is back to talk about the central problem facing much of the Global South. It is not simply bad policy or weak leadership, but the persistence of colonial economic structures. He explains that many countries, especially in Africa, remain trapped in roles designed by empire: exporters of cheap raw materials, importers of finished goods, and sites for low-value production. Political independence did not end these structures, and debt, IMF intervention, and external pressure have only deepened the trap.

"Colonialism and its economic structures were not designed for development, they were not designed for democracy, they were not designed for justice, they were not designed to produce a just transition or human rights or any of these things. If anything, colonialism and its economic structures were hierarchical, abusive, violent, extractive."

Fadhel was one of the economists we originally turned to for our education in MMT. In this conversation with Steve he makes the case that MMT is not a theory of everything. Issues of race, class, and colonialism require their own lenses. Whether the issue is climate change, migration, development, or reparations, the entry point has to be the lived material conditions. MMT becomes crucial when the question turns to how to mobilize resources, avoid debt traps, and finance transformation without inflationary collapse.

Dr. Fadhel Kaboub is a Tunisian American economist. He is an Associate Professor of Economics at Denison University and president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He’s the author of Global South Perspectives on Substack. In 2025, Dr. Kaboub was recognized by the New Africa Magazine in the top 100 most influential Africans under the Thinkers and Opinion Shapers category. He currently serves a two-year term on the United Nations High Level Advisory Board on Economic and Social Affairs at UN DESA.

Find his work at globalsouthperspectives.substack.com

@FadhelKaboub on X

Erald Kolasi is back to attack the bourgeois narrative on immigration, which reduces it to a series of individual choices. He and Steve dig into the material roots of migration, showing how empire, land theft, war, labor exploitation, and capitalist crisis have shaped global migration flows for centuries.

They ground the discussion in Wallerstein's world-systems theory, defining an empire not by its internal politics but by its extractive external relations, and trace the concrete historical processes of this extraction. The "migration boomerang" from US destabilization in Guatemala, Nicaragua, and El Salvador – driven by the needs of capital like the United Fruit Company – demonstrates the dialectic in action.

The empire's domination creates the displaced peoples it then scapegoats to divide the working class. Erald connects this to the long arc of capitalist development, from the Atlantic slave system to the prison-industrial complex, showing how the ruling class has always used race and nationality to prevent united class consciousness.

With the MMT lens, Steve explains that this is directly tied to how a Federal Job Guarantee would shatter this dynamic by eliminating the "reserve army of labor" and the power of capital to discipline workers.

Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work on his website, www.eraldkolasi.com.

Subscribe to his Substack: https://substack.com/@technodynamics

While we’re being distracted by chatbots and AI gimmicks, Silicon Valley is quietly embedding its products into surveillance systems, border enforcement, battlefield logistics, and even nuclear command-and-control. The real money isn’t in selfies with AI. It’s in Pentagon contracts and permanent war footing.

Investigative reporter Peter Byrne is back to talk with Steve about his 10-part Military AI Watch series at Project Censored. It’s a chilling and materialist analysis of the military-industrial-AI complex.

Naming names and following the funding trails, Peter reveals how firms tied to Palantir, Google, and other tech giants are positioning AI as indispensable to “national security.” Meanwhile, the systems themselves remain prone to hallucination, data poisoning, and catastrophic error.

War games escalate to nuclear exchange. (Does anyone remember War Games, the movie? Matthew Broderick and Ally Sheedy play a teenage nerd and a popular girl who save the world from the nuclear destruction they almost launched. Sigh... innocent times.) Civilian infrastructure becomes battlefield terrain. And the comforting promise of a “human in the loop” is a marketing slogan instead of a safeguard. 2001: A Space Odyssey eerily feels both prescient and naive by comparison. Hollywood likes to personalize everything. The villain is wacky or evil; it's never the economic system.

As their conversation continues, Steve and Peter look at class power, media complicity, and the illusion that electoral politics alone can rein in a self-directing war machine.

Peter Byrne is an award-winning investigative science reporter who has long uncovered corruption at the nexus of science and industry. Now, in partnership with Project Censored, Byrne has launched Military AI Watch, a groundbreaking ten-part series published on Project Censored’s website.

https://www.projectcensored.org/military-ai-watch/

Find all of Peter’s work here: https://www.peterbyrne.info/

“...Some are dancing, some are drowning, but in the end everybody’s going to go under.”

Dr. Ali Kadri (Sun Yat-sen University), author of the Unmaking of Arab Socialism, joins Steve to talk about imperialism, development, and why the Arab world keeps getting put through the capitalist meat grinder. Ali argues that capitalism isn’t just markets and greed. It’s a destructive social relationship. Once you look at it that way, many of the world’s mysteries stop being mysterious: war, austerity, pollution, and mass deaths aren’t accidents that occasionally happen to capitalism. They are outcomes to be monetized.

The conversation moves to imperialism as capitalism in its concentrated, caffeinated, and brutal form, especially under finance-dominance. Ali describes genocide as both direct (bombs, occupation, ethnic cleansing) and structural (avoidable hunger, disease, debt-driven collapse). He frames the destruction of Arab socialist and anti-colonial projects as strategic for empire: control of oil, geography, and the political threat of regional solidarity.

They talk about MMT’s explanation of currency and how the dollar functions as a lever. Ali sees the dollar as power, representing control over global resources and labor. Debt dependence becomes a kind of colonization by spreadsheet.

“If the dollar stops for a minute or for a month or so, then we have people going hungry. And so this is a form of colonization, a form of death by the dollar.”

They close by pulling democracy down from the clouds. Steve suggests bourgeois elections merely deliver a reshuffling of managers for the same system, and Ali produces a simple metaphor: a multiple-choice exam. The choices have been pre-loaded. And in elections, the result is still class rule.

Dr. Ali Kadri is a Visiting Professor at Sun Yat-sen University. He has previously held senior roles at the National University of Singapore and the London School of Economics. His academic work focuses on the political economy of development, imperialism, and the Arab world. He is the author of several important books, including The Accumulation of Waste: A Political Economy of Systemic Destruction; China’s Path to Development: Against Neoliberalism; and The Unmaking of Arab Socialism.

Can Marxists and MMTers find common ground, or are they doomed to be strategic enemies?

Steve’s guest is Australian labor historian and organizer Owen Bennett, who founded the Australian Unemployed Workers’ Union in 2015, and more recently, Unionists for a Job Guarantee in 2024. He and Steve explore how to tackle the deep divide between Modern Monetary Theory and the Marxist left. Owen argues that the left's current dismissal of full-employment policy is a historic break from a time when communists and unionists successfully fought for – and won – some major concessions under capitalism. We should look to establish that kind of unity.

If the state is a tool of the oligarchs, is fighting for a policy like the Job Guarantee a distraction from revolution, or is it a necessary front in the class war? Steve and Owen discuss austerity, strategy, and whether "socialism or bust" has left the working class with nothing at all.

Owen Bennett is a unionist, university tutor, PhD graduate in labour history, activist, author, and researcher. He has published widely on the history of working class struggles against unemployment in Australia. His book on the struggle for full employment in post-war Australia is forthcoming.

Owen founded the Australian Unemployed Workers Union in 2015 and, more recently, Unionists for a Job Guarantee in 2024.

This week Steve invited Gabriel Rockhill to talk about his new book Who Paid the Pipers of Western Marxism? Vol 1 of The Intellectual World War.

The war on communism is about protecting imperial super-profits, keeping cheap labor and resources flowing from the Global South to the imperial core. It has never been about lofty values and freedom fries. So why does the empire care about books, grants, and academic careers?

Gabriel’s investigation begins with a potent symbol: the legacy of Che Guevara. We know the CIA hunted and executed him. Less known is their parallel mission to assassinate the legacy of his thoughts. By seizing and editing his Bolivian diaries, US intelligence and its media assets would control the narrative of his struggle. It’s a microcosm of a vast, systemic project. It reveals that empires understand a fundamental truth: the pen can be mightier than the sword. That might sound trite but think about it: to control populations and maintain global dominance, you must control the realm of thought, the very imagination of what is possible.

The true target of this intellectual war has never been abstract Marxist theory. It is actually existing socialism: the tangible, state-building projects that succeeded in breaking the chains of imperialism. From the Soviet Union and China to Cuba, Vietnam, and beyond, these movements achieved the unthinkable: they halted the imperial value flow. They stopped the hemorrhage of natural resources and cheap labor from the Global South to the capitalist core, claiming their right to self-determination and independent development. This was the existential threat: a model proving that escape from the imperialist world-system was achievable. The panic in the halls of power was not over esoteric debates about Hegelian dialectics, but over the loss of super-profits and the empowering example of successful liberation.

Gabriel and Steve discuss why dialectical and historical materialism is more than just a lofty sounding term. It actually matters. It’s like the anti-virus software for propaganda. Instead of being knocked over every time a new headline drops, we have a framework for seeing patterns. Coups, destabilization, narrative management, the whole traveling circus? They all make sense. And they’re all connected. (In fact, you can’t listen to this episode without hearing the dialectical relationship between material control and the control of ideas.)

Using the Marxist lens, Gabriel analyzes the socioeconomic base of the “theory industry” and a certain brand of Western or academic Marxism that turns class struggle into a grad-seminar aesthetic and cultural war hobby, safely disconnected from organizing, anti-imperialism, and actual movements. He argues the capitalist system naturally fosters and funds ideas that secure its survival, making knowledge production a commodity-driven system focused on exchange value (career advancement, book sales) rather than use value for liberation.

Gabriel isn’t just naming names for sport. (And besides, in the US we already have a long and colorful tradition of naming names, so let’s not be clutching our pearls.) He’s pointing at a system that manufactures respectable “leftist” ideas that don’t threaten empire. As the imperial core becomes more openly brulat at home, we need to reconnect with the international, anti-imperialist thread of revolutionary Marxism if we’re serious about changing anything.

Gabriel Rockhill is a philosopher, cultural critic, and activist. He is the Founding Director of the Critical Theory Workshop / Atelier de Théorie Critique, Professor of Philosophy and Global Interdisciplinary Studies at Villanova University, and Research Associate at the Laboratoire d’anthropologie politique – LAP (EHESS Paris). He is the author or editor of twelve books, including most recently Who Paid the Pipers of Western Marxism? (Monthly Review Press, 2025) and Requiem pour la French Theory with Aymeric Monville (Éditions Delga, 2024). He is one of the Editors-in-Chief of the World Marxist Review and a co-director of the AIM—Anti-Imperialist Marxism book series.

Funding white supremacy is a core, not incidental, function of the modern capitalist state in the U.S. It is also the title of economist Robert B. Williams’ 2025 book, Funding White Supremacy: Federal Wealth Policies and the Modern Racial Wealth Gap.

Bob and Steve share the fundamental position that capitalism doesn’t just produce inequality by accident, it builds durable ladders for some and trapdoors for others. Wealth, not income, is the key instrument because it is power that reproduces itself across generations.

Bob lays out the major policy mechanism of stealth wealth-building: how the federal government subsidizes asset accumulation through the tax code, especially via “tax expenditures” (deductions, exclusions, preferential treatment) that provide vast benefits to the wealthy.

From an MMT perspective, the conversation underlines a crucial point: the state’s problem is not “finding the money,” it’s choosing who gets the public subsidy. A system that claims scarcity around public goods reliably mobilizes massive policy support for private asset appreciation and wealth compounding. In other words, benefits reward ownership and existing assets, not the people struggling to acquire them.

Bob situates this historically, tracing the origins of the modern income and estate tax era to the early 20th century and argues that any progressive policy history coexisted with, and was intertwined with, overt white supremacist politics.

Robert B. Williams is the Stedman Professor of Economics, Guilford College. Bob has taught economics and political economy for over 40 years. He has written three books, including Funding White Supremacy: Federal Wealth Policies and the Modern Racial Wealth Gap (Cambridge University Press, 2025).

We’ve made the case before, but it bears repeating: MMT is a politically neutral, descriptive lens explaining the operational realities of a sovereign fiat currency system where the availability of real resources, not money, are the constraint. And Marxism is an analytical framework for understanding class relations and production. The two are not inherently opposed. It’s a mistake to dismiss MMT as capitalist apologetics.

Steve’s guest is Dr. Anthony Anastasi, an economist teaching at the Sino-British College, University of Shanghai for Science and Technology. They talk about Anthony’s paper: Marxism and MMT: How Modern Monetary Theory Can Enrich the Debate Amongst Marxists.

They dismantle the all-too-common Marxist critiques of MMT, which claim that the state can’t control money’s value, and that MMT lacks a theory of value. (However, the ubiquitous “taxpayer money” framing that feeds austerity myths, is not limited to Marxists.) The discussion reframes the state's monetary capacity as a tool for class struggle rather than a capitalist backstop.

They look at the federal job guarantee with reference to Rosa Luxemburg’s concept of non-reformist reform, ie, a reform that can weaken capitalist logic and build working-class consciousness and power.

Anthony also brings an on-the-ground perspective, sharing observations from China’s political economy, including local-vs-central financing, RMB-denominated debt, capital controls, and emerging debates that resemble MMT arguments even when not labeled as such.

Dr. Anthony William Donald Anastasi is an economist and lecturer specializing in development economics and international political economy. He teaches at the Sino-British College, University of Shanghai for Science and Technology, and holds a Ph.D. from East China Normal University. His research examines how state–business relations, industrial policy, monetary sovereignty, and income distribution shape economic growth, trade patterns, and political power, with a particular focus on China and East Asia. Alongside publishing in SSCI-ranked journals, he regularly writes for the popular press on the Chinese and U.S. economies and global trade.

@_AWDA_ on X

Steve opens in a subdued mood brought on by the dizzying speed of ‘current events.’ For this episode he’s stepping back and looking at Venezuela. News reports are working hard to create confusion. On social media US citizens claim that kidnapping a sitting president is justified if you don’t like him. Or if he’s socialist.

To understand a situation, it must be considered historically, materially, and as a connected process. With that in mind, Ricardo Vaz of Venezuelanalysis, joins Steve to talk about what the Bolivarian Revolution actually was – on the ground – beyond the familiar US media caricatures. Ricardo walks through key turning points in the Chávez era and the social gains that reshaped everyday life. But there’s a bigger question that haunts every revolutionary project. How do you build new forms of democratic power while the old state machinery, domestic elites, and hostile external forces push back?

(Does this sound familiar? It will if you took part in RP Book Club’s study of State and Revolution)

From there, the conversation follows the oil thread. It’s not a single-cause explanation, but it’s where sovereignty, development, and imperial pressure collide. Steve and Ricardo unpack how the hydrocarbons industry evolved, what “nationalization” really meant in practice, and why the fight over Venezuela’s resources can’t be separated from US strategy in the hemisphere.

They then look into the Maduro years, sanctions, economic siege, and the constant tug-of-war inside Venezuela between survival policies and revolutionary horizons. This includes a clear-eyed look at opposition figures and the narratives that dominate US talking points. The episode closes with a grounded discussion of why Venezuela matters as a 21st-century political experiment, and what meaningful solidarity looks like when the headlines are designed to mislead and misdirect.

Ricardo Vaz grew up in Mozambique with strong political leanings and a clear anti-imperialist outlook, which led him early on to closely follow the Bolivarian Revolution and Chavismo in Venezuela. After living in various countries and continents, he moved to Venezuela in early 2019. Although trained in theoretical physics, he gradually shifted into journalism and political analysis, joining the Venezuela Analysis staff as a writer and editor in 2018. His main interests include sanctions, popular power organizations, and corporate media coverage of Venezuela. He is also a member of grassroots media collectives including Tatuy TV and Utopix.

venezuelanalysis.com

@venanalysis on X

Steve welcomes back Erald Kolasi, physicist-economist, author, and friend of the podcast. Erald is here to do a demolition job on “institutional” development fables like Acemoglu & Robinson’s Why Nations Fail. He argues that by treating good institutions as the master key (inclusive vs. extractive) they smuggle in a liberal moral scoreboard while dodging the real motors of history: power, class struggle, imperial systems, and material constraints like energy, trade dependence, war, and ecological shocks.

To “steelman” Acemoglu and Robinson’s position, Erald uses their favorite showcase case – North vs. South Korea. He lays out their comparison of the “tyrannical dictatorship” vs the “open” society and presents their explanation for these differences.

Erald then flips the script: the DPRK outperformed for decades, then crashed not because its “institutions got worse,” but because the USSR collapsed. Cheap, subsidized energy disappeared, wrecking agriculture and triggering famine.

The pattern repeats across history. Using examples like China and Venezuela, the episode explores how wars, sanctions, resource access, and global power structures shape economic outcomes far more than abstract institutional rules. Development is a struggle rooted in material conditions and geopolitical realities, not a neutral competition between better or worse policy designs.

Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work at his website, www.eraldkolasi.com.

Subscribe to his Substack: https://substack.com/@technodynamics

Shealeigh Voitl and Andy Lee Roth join Steve to talk about Project Censored’s State of the Free Press 2025. The book – an annual publication – compiles the year's most important yet underreported or misreported news stories, which they’ve identified through a student-led research process.

Andy highlights the point that corporate news focuses on what went wrong today but ignores what goes wrong every day. “It's the difference between dramatic events and systemic problems.”

The #1 underreported story is that of ICE soliciting private contractors to monitor social media for critics and assess their "proclivity to violence," a move toward normalized surveillance that received little corporate media attention.

Steve and his guests also discuss broader themes, linking media patterns to cultural hegemony and manufacturing consent, where state and oligarchic interests align to shape public perception. Examples include coverage of Israel-Palestine, university crackdowns on pro-Palestinian speech, and the hiring of figures like Bari Weiss.

Andy Lee Roth is editor-at-large for Project Censored and its publishing imprint, The Censored Press. He is co-editor of Project’s State of the Free Press yearbook series, and a coauthor of The Media and Me: A Guide to Critical Media Literacy for Young People.

Shealeigh Voitl is Project Censored's associate director. She helped develop the State of the Free Press 2024 teaching guide, the Project’s Beyond Fact-Checking: A Teaching Guide to the Power of News Frames, and The Project Censored Show’s forthcoming segment Frame-Check.

Find their work at https://www.projectcensored.org/

@ProjectCensored on X

Let’s face it, even “good” macro talk can fall into the trap of treating the economy like a tidy spreadsheet while real lives get crushed in the margins. To help us peer beneath the covers, Steve invited Emma Holten, a Copenhagen-based political economist to talk about her book Deficit: How Feminist Economics Can Change Our World.We often discuss deficits around here, but Emma is looking at a different kind. She reframes deficit as what societies rack up when they systematically undervalue care: the paid and unpaid labor (still disproportionately done by women) that keeps people healthy, capable, and alive.

Emma and Steve discuss the way mainstream economics has long treated the home, the body, and the mind as a black box, as if workers spring fully formed from the soil and arrive at the labor market already fed, healed, soothed, socialized, and ready to produce.

They talk about measurement and the way the GDP counts a $3,000 ambulance bill as added value instead of predatory extraction. They also look at power and social cohesion. Steve connects Emma’s thesis to MMT’s real-resources focus and the Job Guarantee as a way to fund socially necessary work that markets underprovide, while also admitting the hard question: even if policy is sound, capital and its political machinery never volunteer to be disarmed.

Emma Holten is a feminist activist and gender policy consultant. Since 2018, she has worked with feminist economics. In 2024 she published her first book “DEFICIT - On the value of care” in Danish. It is available in English, Swedish, Norwegian, German, Dutch, and Italian - and forthcoming in 6 other languages. It has won the Politiken Literature Prize, The Library Reader’s Prize, The Sara Danius Prize, The Sprout Prize and was shortlisted for the Montana Literature Award.

For a masterclass in true bipartisanship, look no further than the guest list of Jeffrey Epstein! We all love a good conspiracy story, but it’s often just business as usual for the class in power.

Nolan Higdon – lecturer, media critic, and author of The Gaslight Gazette – is back for a deep analytical dive into the Epstein saga. Moving beyond true-crime sensationalism, Nolan and Steve frame the scandal as a stark case study in systemic class power, media complicity, and the mechanisms elite networks use to protect their own.

The discussion hinges on several key points: evidence from released emails shows Epstein’s role as a trans-partisan power broker, connecting figures like Trump and Clinton to finance (Les Wexner) and tech (Bill Gates, Peter Thiel).

The media’s failure to investigate is no accident. (Are we surprised?) It’s a function of class interests acting to manage public perception and manufacture consent. The episode goes on to connect Epstein’s documented interest in spyware and AI to a broader project of militarized surveillance for social control.

Nolan Higdon is a founding member of the Critical Media Literacy Conference of the Americas, Project Censored National Judge, author, and lecturer at Merrill College and the Education Department at University of California, Santa Cruz. Higdon’s areas of concentration include podcasting, digital culture, news media history, propaganda, and critical media literacy. He is the author of The Anatomy of Fake News: A Critical News Literacy Education (2020); Let’s Agree to Disagree: A Critical Thinking Guide to Communication, Conflict Management, and Critical Media Literacy (2022); The Media And Me: A Guide To Critical Media Literacy For Young People (2022); and the forthcoming Surveillance Education: Navigating the conspicuous absence of privacy in schools (Routledge). Higdon is a regular source of expertise for CBS, NBC, The New York Times, and The San Francisco Chronicle.

Find his work on Substack: nolanhigdon.substack.com

@NolanHigdonCML on X

Historian and journalist Vijay Prashad talks with Steve about why Antonio Gramsci still matters.

Listeners to this podcast know that we have a pretty good grasp of the monetary system. But we’re constantly working to expand our understanding of the systemic underpinnings of real power. How else will we be able to seize it? For help, we turn to Gramsci.

According to Vijay, Gramsci was doing class forensics. His core puzzle was brutal and practical: why did big chunks of Italy’s working-class bail on their own unions and parties and drift into fascism? That’s the real origin story of “cultural hegemony,” “common sense,” and the whole Gramscian toolbox: figuring out how consent gets manufactured and how counterrevolution recruits.

Vijay takes us through Gramsci’s political development and his imprisonment under Mussolini, where he wrote his seminal Prison Notebooks.

Then they get into Gramsci’s key concepts: hegemony (borrowed from Lenin and, per Vijay, more than a “culture theory”), the necessity of a Leninist-type party as the modern Prince, and the need to build alliances to create working-class leadership over society.

After taking a hard look at the left in the US, Steve and Vijay discuss the limits of electoral politics and the missing infrastructure for a serious battle of ideas. It’s a wide-ranging conversation about class power, organizing, and what it actually takes to change how people understand the world they’re living in.

Vijay Prashad is the Executive Director of the Tricontinental Institute for Social Research. He is a historian, journalist, and author of forty books, including Washington Bullets: A History of the CIA, Coups, and Assassination; Red Star over the Third World; and The Darker Nations: A People’s History of the Third World.

thetricontinental.org

@vijayprashad on X

In today’s world, anyone serious about anti-imperialism, global development, and monetary sovereignty needs to break through the well-funded US propaganda machine and develop a fact-based, nuanced understanding of China.

To this end, Steve asked Yan Liang to come back to the podcast to look at China through the MMT lens, analyzing its economic management, global role, and response to Western villainization. They discuss China’s development ethos and describe China as a state that actively uses its monetary and fiscal sovereignty to guide development towards internal goals (poverty alleviation, technological self-reliance, common prosperity) and external partnership (Win-win cooperation, Belt and Road Initiative).

Illustrating the difference between state steering and the so-called “free market,” the conversation goes into China’s mobilization of real resources through strategic state guidance, like Five-Year Plans and state-owned enterprises in key sectors.

Yan talks about the use of capital controls and a managed exchange rate. She details lessons from 2015 and the application of MMT principles to insulate domestic policy from volatile external forces.

Without romanticizing China, Yan also walks through its real challenges. But from an MMT-aware lens, these are seen as problems of policy design and resource use (issues a sovereign, planning-oriented state can address!) rather than proof of an impending collapse.

Yan Liang is Peter C and Bonnie S Kremer Chair Professor of Economics at Willamette University. She is also a Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute, a Non-Resident Senior Fellow at the Global Development Policy Center (Boston University), and a Research Scholar of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.

Yan specializes in the Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), the Political Economy of China, Economic Development, and International Economics. Yan’s current research focuses on China’s development finance and industrial transformation, and China’s role in the global financial architecture.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/yan-liang-1355b91a2/

@YanLian31677392 on X

Steve and his guest, Scottish political economist William Thomson, use the fight over Scotland’s independence to dissect how class power hides inside “neutral” economic rules.

Will, founder of SCOTONOMICS, talks about his journey from neoclassical training to a heterodox, political-economy perspective grounded in MMT, ecological economics, and class analysis.

He recently wrote a paper (with friend-of-the-podcast Dirk Ehnts) showing how the Scottish government’s plan to copy the EU’s Stability and Growth Pact and delay its own currency would lock an “independent” Scotland into permanent austerity and dependence on markets and foreign owners.

Will explains that more foreign direct investment, supply-side reforms, and 3% deficit caps aren’t “responsible” policy – they are mechanisms to protect external and domestic elites at the expense of workers and communities.

Steve and Will stress that MMT is just a lens without an explicit socialist or working-class political economy. The same monetary tools can be used for empire, war, and repression. They argue for an independence project built on monetary sovereignty, full employment, ecological limits, and economic resilience... not on appeasing markets and Brussels.

William Thompson is a Scottish political economist and founder of SCOTONOMICS. He worked for almost a decade in the financial services sector in London. He has an MSc in the Green Economy and MEcon in the Economics of Sustainability. Based in Dunblane, Will writes regular blog posts and articles on economics in various publications including The National newspaper in Scotland and the Scottish Left Review. Support SCOTONOMICS: patreon.com/Scotonomics.

@Williamgallus on X

https://scotonomics.org/

“We’re at an inflection point – a civilizational crisis. Western imperial dominance is ending, and its dying spasms are only accelerating the collapse.”Aaron Good 

Aaron Good, author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State, is back to talk with Steve about the crisis of the US-led imperial order and the manufactured “common sense” that keeps people trapped inside a rigged system. 

Centuries of Western imperial dominance are unraveling, and the US responds with flailing, genocidal actions in Gaza and Ukraine. These aren't signs of strength; they're the death rattles of a corpse that doesn't know it's dead yet. 

“Realizing you’re not voting your way out of it might be the most terrifying ‘aha moment’ of them all.”Steve Grumbine 

At home the two major US parties are presented as alternatives, the ballot is a participation trophy in the “managed spectacle” of elections. Obama? Trump? Biden? Different brands, same oligarchy. Corporate media and algorithmic “alternative media” work together to keep people confused, divided, and clinging to the fantasy that if they just vote harder, donate more, and binge the right “left” YouTubers, they can reform a system designed to crush them. The empire’s to-do list (crush dissent, steal resources) remains the same. 

What are we to do? Maybe we can't break the system yet, but we can stop being dupes. See the Matrix. 

Aaron Good holds a doctorate in political science from Temple University. He is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State. He is the host of American Exception podcasthttps://americanexception.com/podcast/ 

Follow Aaron’s work at americanexception.substack.com/  

@Aaron_Good_ on X

Randy: “We’re supposed to believe the central bank manages inflation by using interest rates?" 

Steve: “It’s ridiculous.” 

L. Randall Wray, one of the original MMT economists, recently wrote a paper with Yeva Nersisyan entitled, No, the Fed is NOT Independent – It is a Creature of Congress.  Steve invited Randy for a conversation about how the Federal Reserve is, and always has been, a "creature of Congress," and its supposed independence is a smokescreen that benefits the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us.

The Fed has a dual mandate of full employment and price stability, yet it consistently prioritizes the stability of Wall Street over the well-being of Main Street, bailing out banks while leaving workers to face the fallout of manufactured recessions. 

Randy describes how raising interest rates – the Fed’s so-called tool – works to suppress wages by slowing the economy and killing job growth. Federal Reserve transcripts explicitly state that they fear “wage inflation” but see “profit inflation” as desirable.

Randy wants Congress to take control of the central bank. (Some of us don’t see Congress as independent either.) But whatever our belief in the role of the state and who it serves, the episode contains valuable information on central bank operations, how interest rate hikes discipline labor, the truth about “fighting” inflation, and the difference between monetary and fiscal policy. We need to understand the mechanics of power if we’re going to build the future we deserve.

L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, and Emeritus Professor at University of Missouri-Kansas City. He is one of the developers of Modern Money Theory and his newest book on the topic is Understanding Modern Money Theory: Money and Credit in Capitalist Economies (Elgar, 2025).

** Want to take a deeper dive into this podcast? Join us on Tuesday evenings for Macro ‘n Chill, where we listen to the most recent episode together. Ask questions, share your insights, or just hang with us. 8pm ET/5pm PT. Find the registration link at realprogressives.org. And while you’re there, sign up for book club. It’s not too late – there are still two more sessions in our current series. ** 

Trump’s “$20B for Argentina” wasn’t aid – it was a heist. Economist Daniel Kostzer joins Steve to explain. Basically it’s just same ole same ole. Milei’s government crashed the value of Argentina’s currency and jacked up interest rates, drawing in big investors looking for fast profits. Then, under pressure from the IMF and the US, Argentina opened up its financial system, letting those hedge funds cash out in US dollars and leave the country, taking the money and leaving ordinary Argentines to deal with inflation, frozen pensions, and gutted public services. The media story about soybeans and China? Simply a cover for another bailout of the rich. 

Daniel describes Argentina’s inflation as a symptom of class struggle. He connects the dots between today’s crisis and a long history of U.S. financial “help” that only props up Wall Street. The conversation exposes how the global elites use debt, currency crises, and friendly politicians to extract wealth while selling it as economic stability. 

The episode is a deep dive into modern imperialism, media manipulation, and class politics. It’s also a reminder, as Gramsci said, to keep the pessimism of the intellect but the optimism of the will. 

Daniel Kostzer is Chief Economist at ITUC-CSI (International Trade Union Confederation-Confederacion Sindical Internacional). Much of his research is in labor economics, poverty reduction, and income distribution. Follow him: @dkostzer on X;https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-kostzer-884318165/  

Heidi Boghosian is an attorney, author, and co-host of Law and Disorder podcast and radio show. She joins Steve to discuss how the US surveillance state is a tool of class discipline and repression. From the Federalist Society pipeline to post-9/11 “safety” theater, both parties helped build a digital police state that criminalizes poverty, protest, and anyone messing with profits. And let’s not forget the copaganda about “crime” and “illegals” to keep folks scared while manufactured austerity produces the very crises the state then punishes. Classic ruling class two-step. 

Silicon Valley’s tech bros are kind of like bouncers. Thiel, Apple, Google et al. snort up our data, rig information flows (algorithms, anyone?) then lobby to block regulation.  The “nothing to hide” line is an ideological bait and switch. The killer is inside the house! 

There’s no easy fix. Heidi urges immediate digital self-defense – the OPSEC basics, privacy tools, scam awareness. Meanwhile the ruling class isn’t losing sleep over your “I voted” sticker. We should be thinking in terms of local organizing and building counter-hegemony. (Heidi references the Young Lords. Look ‘em up!) 

Heidi Boghosian is a New York-based attorney and activist. She's the author of "Spying on Democracy" (2013), "I Have Nothing To Hide" (2021), and "Cyber Citizens: Saving Democracy with Digital Literacy" (June 2025). 

Heidi is co-host of the radio show and podcast, Law and Disorder. Find her work at lawanddisorder.org and heidiboghosian.com

"The self-made man is a lie that we have taught people to keep them from complaining, to keep them from whining, to keep them from asking for better from their government, to keep them from asking for better from their employer." 

The two Steves – Hall and Grumbine – get together to dismantle the myth of the self-made man, exposing it as a centuries-old political weapon designed to disempower the working class. 

Professor Hall traces the roots of this "possessive individualism" back centuries, saying it is not a recent neoliberal invention but a deeply embedded cultural force with origins in changes in English law, specifically the spread of primogeniture (inheritance by the first-born son) in the 12th century. He goes on to explain the consequences of these historical events. 

The conversation reframes the American Dream as a form of mass gambling. Despite overwhelming evidence that most people fail, the system encourages a zero-sum mindset where we focus on the lottery-like winners. 

The Steves agree that facts alone won't break this spell. They discuss the need for a new emotionally compelling narrative that counters the right's fear-mongering. 

Steve Hall is Emeritus Professor of Criminology at the University of Teesside. He is a polymath who has published in the fields of criminology, sociology, anthropology, history, economic history, political theory and philosophy. He is also co-author of Violent Night (Berg 2006, with Simon Winlow), Rethinking Social Exclusion (Sage 2013, with Simon Winlow), Riots and Political Protest (Routledge 2015, with Simon Winlow, James Treadwell and Daniel Briggs), Revitalizing Criminological Theory (Routledge 2015, with Simon Winlow), The Rise of the Right (with Simon Winlow and James Treadwell) and The Death of the Left (with Simon Winlow). He is co-editor of New Directions in Criminological Theory (Routledge 2012, with Simon Winlow). In 2017 he received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the international Extreme Anthropology Research Network at the University of Vienna. 

@ProfHall1955 on X 

Do you know what kakistocracy means? You’ll find out in this episode with guest Bill Black. Because, yeah, this is an educational podcast. A lot of us learned the term ‘elite control fraud’ from Bill in past episodes and you’ll hear more about it here.  

Bill is a great storyteller. His experience as a regulator trying to enforce laws against the great crooks of the world gives him a lot of material. If you haven’t already heard our first episode with him, check it out:  “Exposed: A Serial Whistleblowers Story” He’s the author of The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One– one of our favorite book titles. 

At the start of this week’s interview, Bill explains: 

“...The absolute paramount form of control fraud is President of the United States of America. And they set about optimizing it as soon as they got in power. Remember all those executive orders and things that Trump would sign? 

“... Among their very first acts was to say, we will no longer enforce the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Now this is an act that says, no, it's not okay to bribe public officials in other countries. It's actually a crime. And Trump was saying way back in time, long before he even was talking about the presidency, how we shouldn't have a Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. That it was stupid. Of course you should be able to bribe people. It's good for business. 

“And if you think that's bad, the New York Bar Association took the same position.  Because they were the commercial lawyers for all the firms that were bribing folks all over the world.” 

Bill describes a shift to the final stage of elite control fraud. Corrupt actors no longer bother hiding their crimes. They flaunt them. This serves as "free advertising" to attract more bribes and creates a price war among those seeking favors, while simultaneously intimidating opponents. 

Bill also talks to Steve about further manipulation of financial regulations and the intersections of elite control fraud within the cryptocurrency market. He goes through the real reasons crypto is useful to the ruling class and how these dynamics affect everyday people. 

William K. Black is Distinguished Scholar in Residence for Financial Regulation, University of Minnesota School of Law. He is a white-collar criminologist, a former financial regulator, former banker, and serial whistleblower. He is a co-founder of Bank Whistleblowers United (BWU). 

@WilliamKBlack on X

**This week’s Macro ‘n Chill gathering should be a lively one. Whenever we dive into the topic of cultural hegemony, it sparks a thoughtful discussion. Join us on Tuesday, October 14, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Click here to register  

This is the 349th episode of our podcast. Just sayin’.

Steve’s guest is David Fields, talking about his recent article, The Cultural Syndromes of Capitalism. David explains the rise of far-right figures like Donald Trump is not a random accident but a direct outcome of the capitalist system, which creates deep-seated cultural syndrome that poison our minds and relationships, making fascism an attractive option for many when the system itself is in crisis. 

The three key cultural syndromes are: 

The conversation also touches on theological reflections and historical perspectives to further emphasize the pervasive cultural manipulation intrinsic to capitalism. Overall, the episode examines the ideological tools used to maintain economic subjugation. Liberals and Democrats are meant as a ‘friendly face’ of the same system, offering pittances of welfare while ensuring the exploitative oppressive structure remains intact. 

Link to the article discussed in this episode:https://utahvanguard.medium.com/the-cultural-syndromes-of-capitalism-e2765aa7df34 

David M. Fields is an economist and author whose research is grounded in critical, realistic and genetic structuralist ontology and epistemology, focusing on the complex interactions of foreign exchange and capital flows with economic growth, fiscal and monetary policy and distribution, with particular emphasis on the concept of endogenous money. 

Additionally, he investigates the political economy of regional development, along with examining patterns with respect to housing, social stratification and community planning. He is currently an economist at the Utah Department of Commerce and the author of a Medium post for the Utah Vanguard. 

@ProfDavidFields on X

The Palestinian liberation struggle is a fundamental class and anti-colonial issue. First-time guest to the podcast, Professor Omar Zahzah, talks with Steve about the active collaboration of Silicon Valley tech giants with the US and Israeli governments to censor and suppress anti-Zionist narratives. 

"What these companies are doing is digitally amplifying a physical process of settler colonial dispossession." 

Omar goes beyond labeling digital censorship as simple political bias. He argues that Silicon Valley's actions are a direct extension of imperialist goals in Palestine: the erasure of a people, their narrative, and their history. Big Tech is not a referee – not even a biased one. It is an active combatant. 

Omar provides a sharp critique of how the language of safety and anti-racism is co-opted and weaponized. Online platforms use terms like "harassment" and "hate speech" to silence criticism. 

In their discussion, Omar and Steve apply Antonio Gramsci's theory of cultural hegemony to the digital sphere. They analyze how Big Tech platforms shape our "common sense," not just through outright censorship, but through algorithmic curation, shadow-banning, and overwhelming activists with trolls and bots, waging a "digital war of attrition" that drains energy and shifts perceptions. They also suggest the potential TikTok ban is not just a US-China trade issue but a symptom of a crisis of hegemony. 

Omar Zahzah is a writer, poet, organizer of Lebanese Palestinian descent, and Assistant Professor of Arab and Muslim Ethnicities and Diasporas (AMED) Studies at San Francisco State University. Omar has covered digital repression in relation to Palestine as a freelance journalist since May 2021, with work appearing in such outlets as Al Jazeera, Middle East Eye, Electronic Intifada, Mondoweiss, CounterPunch, and more. Omar holds a PhD in Comparative Literature from UCLA. 

His recently published book isTerms of Servitude: Zionism, Silicon Valley, and Digital Settler Colonialism in the Palestinian Liberation Struggle 

@dromarzahzah on X    

Economic anthropologist Brett Scott, the author of Cloud Money, talks with Steve about libertarianism’s big lie. Or lies – plural.

From a class perspective, libertarianism is largely an ideological tool that protects elite power by promoting a false narrative of individualism and "free" markets. It serves as a smokescreen, concealing the mechanisms of power in a class society. What worse, it’s presented as neutral. As if all citizens are on an equal playing field. Market transactions replace the natural interdependence at the core of societies. 

Brett and Steve look at leftwing alternatives, including the potential of mutual credit systems and alternative economies as counter-narratives to mainstream economic structures.  

They also discuss libertarians' obsession with commodity money (like gold), which stems directly from their flawed view of society. They see money as a neutral tool for trade between independent agents. In reality, modern money is a credit system—a network of social promises and debts that reflects power dynamics. 

Brett Scott is an author, journalist, and activist, who explores the intersections between money systems, finance, and digital technology. He’s the author of The Heretics Guide to Global Finance: Hacking the Future of Money. His latest book is Cloudmoney: Cash, Cards, Crypto, and the War for Our Wallets. Find more of his work athttps://alteredstatesof.money/ or onSubstack.

@Suitpossum on X

** You are invited to attend Macro ‘n Chill, our community building online gathering where we discuss the current episode of the podcast. Tuesday, September 23 at 8pm ET/5pm PTClick here to register. 

Our friend, MMT economist Yeva Nersisyan, joins Steve to discuss the struggle to communicate MMT's core principles in a media landscape filled with misinformation, including from those who should know better. They call some of them out by name and express disappointment when natural allies on the left reject modern monetary theory.  

“At this point, you cannot just be MMT curious. You have to make up your mind, do you want the ‘scarce money’ framework? Is that the way you're going to view the world? Or do you view it through the MMT framework? Because there is no other option.” 

Yeva and Steve agree that MMT is not a political ideology but a crucial lens for understanding that a monetarily sovereign government is the creator of currency, which means scarcity is serving another purpose – eg, supporting this economic system. 

They talk about government spending during Covid as a missed opportunity to educate. They criticize so-called progressive politicians (hello Bernie!) who, despite likely understanding MMT, refuse to publicly champion its principles. This leads to self-sabotage (perhaps intentionally?) when they claim to argue for progressive policies within a conservative tax-and-spend agenda. Result? Austerity. 

As we regularly try to stress, a correct understanding of MMT is no solution, but rather a tool in building a revolutionary class analysis. 

Dr. Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of Economics and Department Chair at Franklin and Marshall College and a research scholar at Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Professor Nersisyan has published more than 25 journal articles, book chapters, policy notes and policy briefs on the topics of Modern Monetary Theory, fiscal policy, the Green New Deal, and financial instability. She is the editor of the Elgar Companion to Modern Monetary Theory with L. Randall Wray, and her work has appeared in publications such as The Guardian and The Hill. 

Find her work at levyinstitute.org/publications/yeva-nersisyan 

Our friend Daniel Conceição is back for his sixth(!) time on Macro N Cheese. He and Steve share their critique of "neutral" or academic MMT that avoids class analysis. Understanding a government's monetary capacity is meaningless without using that knowledge as a weapon for class struggle against an oppressive economic system. 

Daniel shares his experiences in Buenos Aires, describing a city with grand public infrastructure (a legacy of Peronism) now filled with poverty due to austerity. He dismantles the myth that President Javier Milei's austerity policies tamed inflation. Instead, he argues the temporary stabilization was due to a massive, supranational bailout from the IMF, not free-market principles. And when we’re talking about the IMF, we’re seeing a tool of economic imperialism. By creating dollar dependency in developing nations, it forces them into debt servitude and structural adjustments that fully serve global capital, never local populations. 

This brings us back to mainstream economists who lie outright in order to protect the class interests of banks and the oligarchy. They point to how economic rationalizations shift (e.g., after the 2008 crisis and during the pandemic) to always justify saving capital while opposing spending on the public purpose. 

Daniel Conceição is an associate professor at the Institute of Urban and Regional Planning and Research (IPPUR) at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ), and one of the authors of the book “Modern Monetary Theory: The Key to an Economy at the Service of People”. He is also former president of the Institute of Functional Finance for Development Brasil (https://iffdbrasil.org/) 

@stopthelunacy 

** Tuesday evening, Bob will join our weekly online gathering where we’ll listen to the podcast together and discuss. Bring your questions for him. September 9 at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register:https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/1HA3nd_5QFSFzBe_cGiHpw 

This is Bob Hockett’s 12th visit to Macro N Cheese. Back in 2022, in an episode discussing the collapse of the major crypto exchange platform FTX, Bob gave us a useful rule of thumb: 

“The irony is that in every one of these cases there is a clue in the name of the product in question that ought to warn you. If it’s called a junk bond, there’s a reason for that word “junk” being used. And if it’s called a subprime mortgage loan... there’s a reason for that “subprime” term. Similarly with cryptocurrency or crypto assets, one of the most ironical names ever conceived for this kind of product. If the word “crypto” comes into it, then that’s a pretty good tip-off that there’s something non-transparent about it, that there’s something opaque and occluded and difficult to understand.” 

Hmmm... today’s topic is the GENIUS Act. What meaning should we take from that name? 

In this episode, Bob and Steve talk about the newly-passed GENIUS Act whose stated purpose is regulation of the stablecoin industry, bringing the shadow banking industry into the light and out of the, um, shadows.   

The discussion looks at the flawed premise of private stablecoins and the real motives behind the push. Far from preventing instability and fraud, promotion of stablecoin aligns with a libertarian ideology (a la Hayek) that seeks to denationalize currency and privatize money. From a Modern Monetary Theory perspective, the implications are alarming. It merits a discussion of the role of the state. 

 The GENIUS Act is a dangerous distraction. A Trojan Horse.  

 Robert C. Hockett is the Edward Cornell Professor of Law at Cornell Law School.His principal teaching, research, and writing interests lie in the fields of organizational, financial, and monetary law and economics 

 His forthcoming and recent books are: World Money (Yale 2026); A Republic of Producers (Yale 2025); Making Capital Democratic (Polity 2025); Spread the Fed (Palgrave 2025); The Citizens' Ledger (Palgrave 2022); Democratizing Finance (Verso 2022); Money from Nothing (Melville House 2020); Financing the Green New Deal (Palgrave 2020).  

@rch371 on X    

In our 14th episode with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, the conversation focuses on the MMT perspective on international trade. Bill explains what is meant by the statement “imports are a benefit, and exports are a cost,” where it fits into the history of economic thought, and some of its implications. 

A significant portion of the conversation is dedicated to explaining the crucial shift from the Bretton Woods fixed exchange rate system to the modern system of floating exchange rates after 1971. Bill clarifies that in a floating regime, a currency-issuing government is not financially constrained in its domestic policy by “trade imbalances,” as it was under Bretton Woods.  

The episode also touches on bond vigilantes, the IMF, and the shifting status of the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency. 

William Mitchell is Professor of Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE) at the University of Newcastle, NSW Australia. He is also the Docent Professor of Global Political Economy at the University of Helsinki, Finland, and Guest International Professor at Kyoto University, Japan.  

Follow Bill’s work, including his upcoming books, athttps://billmitchell.org/blog/ 

**Be sure to subscribe to our Substack. It costs you nothing to have all our new content delivered to straight to your inbox!  https://realprogressives.substack.com/ 

Remember Labour's stunning defeat in the 2019 UK general election? When, under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, they won the lowest number of seats since 1935?   

Steve’s guest, Chris Williamson, brings an insider’s view to the story. Chris is a former MP and shadow minister for UK’s Labour Party. He’s currently deputy leader of the Workers Party of Britain, and hosts a show, Palestine Declassified, that has the notable honor of being banned by YouTube. 

Chris describes some strategic missteps within the Labour Party under Corbyn and others. He criticizes the adoption of neoliberal policies, like the fiscal credibility rule, and Corbyn’s ambiguity on Brexit. The Zionist lobby leapt on their support for Palestine; charges of antisemitism hit their target. 

“Unfortunately, Jeremy gave it legs by continually apologizing. And as I said to him at the time, ‘Every apology you make and every concession you give is just feeding the beast and making it stronger. Ultimately they're going to come for you and destroy this project.’ And they did. I mean, that's what really killed the Corbyn project. It was the antisemitism thing. I mean, what finished it off. What delivered the coup-de-grace, of course, was the commitment to a second referendum on Brexit.” 

Chris also recounts his own experience as a victim of coordinated attacks which led to his being ousted from the Labour Party. 

Throughout the conversation, Steve and Chris continuously pound the MMT message, reminding us that the UK, like the US, is not constrained by lack of money!

Chris Williamson is a former member of Parliament and shadow minister for the Labour Party, currently deputy leader of the Workers Party of Britain.

@DerbyChrisW on X 

Follow Palestine Declassified https://www.presstv.ir/Section/150108 

Our friend, physicist and economist Erald Kolasi, stops by the Macro N Cheese clubhouse to talk with Steve about the profound effects of AI on the energy grid, water resources, and societal infrastructure. The discussion focuses primarily on large-scale corporate AI, such as generative AI.

Erald’s work bridges physics, economics, and ecology, revealing how AI’s rapid expansion is not just a technological phenomenon but a biophysical crisis – one that’s easy to overlook. Cloud is such a gentle word. Diaphanous. It sounds harmless. Lovely, even.

“When you're in front of your computer and you're just typing away and you're asking these systems to do all these magical things for you, it can seem like it comes out of nowhere. But no, in reality, all of this stuff takes enormous energy.” 

AI’s dematerialized facade obscures its physical infrastructure. It’sa classic capitalist contradiction where "progress" accelerates ecological breakdown. 

Erald and Steve talk about the race to the bottom, as states and municipalities trade public health for tax revenue. Regulatory enforcement is absent.  

While exploiting labor and plundering nature, the costs are socialized as these companies use public water and energy grids. Elon Musk’s xAI Colossus is based in Tennessee. (Remember the TVA, that impressive example of depression-era federal works? Help yourself, Elon.) It’s not just that they use public water and energy, it’s the vast and growing amounts of these resources, as Erald explains. 

The conversation also touches on the AI arms race, as the US competes with China, using “national security” as an excuse to justify resource wars.  

From energy consumption to water depletion, from labor displacement to geopolitical tensions, this episode exposes the contradictions of AI under a system that prioritizes profit over sustainability. 

Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work at his website,www.eraldkolasi.com. 

Subscribe to his Substack:https://substack.com/@technodynamics 

**Our weekly online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill is the perfect place to discuss this week’s episode, especially since it includes terminology you might not be familiar with. Or there may be someone who needs your help understanding it. Community-buidling on Tuesday, August 12 at 8pm ET/5pm PT.Use this link to register 

What do you know about blockchain?  Surely you’ve heard our episodes with Brett Scott or the Blockchain Socialist or Rohan Grey. Now we have another one. Steve’s guest is Victor Vernissage, co-founder of the project Humanode, which aims to use blockchain to create a biometric based system. Victor, who agrees with Steve that the US is not a democracy, notes that even "decentralized" crypto systems replicate oligarchic structures, where power is tied to capital. 

They delve into the intricacies of Humanode's capacity and discuss how this can be a tool for building parallel systems outside traditional governmental structures. They also touch on the potential for decentralized governance and the challenges of implementation at both local and global levels.  

Victor talks about concepts like liquid democracy with specialized chambers to avoid tyranny of the majority. He explains Sybil attacks and sockpuppeting. The conversation offers insights into how technology can be leveraged for social and political transformation, emphasizing the role of community involvement and the importance of building new economic and social structures from the ground up. 

***** 

Victor Vernissage is a researcher and cofounder of multiple ventures, with his latest baby being Humanode, an egalitarian decentralised ledger built on the principle of one human = one vote in contrast to capital-based blockchains predominant today. Victor loves macro, complex systems and the intersection of crypto, identity and economics, meanwhile building new social structures as code. Learn more about the project at humanode.io 

@tech_mingler on X  

Charles Derber, a sociology professor at Boston College, talks with Steve about his book, 'Bonfire: American Sociocide, Broken Relations and the Quest for Democracy.' Steve suggests the book aligns with his own assessment that US sociocide (social disintegration) demands revolutionary change. Electoral politics are a distraction and a dead end.

The conversation covers the need for a deeper understanding of a system that manufactures and perpetuates inequality. They discuss the historical continuity of fascism as the logical endpoint of capitalism. Indeed, Trump’s presidency has exposed the latent fascist character of the US state, stripping away liberal democratic pretenses. Austerity measures and increased ICE (and police) funding serve to suppress resistance and criminalize poverty.

Steve emphasizes the need for organizing alternative institutions, building dual power. Charles hopes his book will help connect personal experiences with broader systemic issues, advocating for a collective response to the socio-economic crisis and reinforcing the necessity of long-term, sustainable organizing outside traditional party politics.

Charles Derber, Professor of Sociology at Boston College, is the author of twenty-eight books, including the Wilding of America, The. Pursuit of Attention, Sociopathic Society, Corporation Nation, People Before Profit, Dying for Capitalism, Greed to Green, Welcome to the Revolution, and Who Owns Democracy - translated into 14 languages. He is a public sociologist and life-long activist, who writes about structural and cultural analysis of capitalism, public goods, the environment, and social movements seeking transformational change. He is a life-long activist for peace and social justice.

If we had the power to design our own political system, what would it look like? 

Stanford Professor James Fishkin talks with Steve about deliberative democracy, a method that brings together diverse, representative groups to weigh policy trade-offs in a fact-based, civil environment. He maintains that when people get the chance to discuss issues in depth, they often move away from extremes, suggesting that polarization isn’t as unbreakable as pundits claim. James presents some examples, like how deliberative polling in Texas led to a massive shift toward wind energy. 

Steve acknowledges his skepticism and asks whether James believes this could translate into real power, like shaping a federal job guarantee or breaking the corporate stranglehold on policy. James argues that while deliberative democracy isn’t a magic fix, it’s a tool to cut through misinformation and empower ordinary people, offering a glimpse of what democracy could be. (When we wrest control from the hands of the ruling class.) 

James S. Fishkin holds the Janet M. Peck Chair in International Communication at Stanford University where he is Professor of Communication, Professor of Political Science (by courtesy) and Director of the Deliberative Democracy Lab.

He is the author of Democracy When the People Are Thinking (Oxford 2018), When the People Speak (Oxford 2009), Deliberation Day (Yale 2004 with Bruce Ackerman) and Democracy and Deliberation (Yale 1991).

He is best known for developing Deliberative Polling® – a practice of public consultation that employs random samples of the citizenry to explore how opinions would change if they were more informed. His work on deliberative democracy has stimulated more than 100 Deliberative Polls in 28 countries around the world. It has been used to help governments and policy makers make important decisions in Texas, China, Mongolia, Japan, Macau, South Korea, Bulgaria, Brazil, Uganda and other countries around the world.

Dr. Charles LeBaron is a retired CDC scientist and the author of Greed to Do Good: The Untold Story of CDC's Disastrous War on Opioids.He talks with Steve about the ill-considered response to the opioid crisis and the tragic and preventable consequences of the CDC’s 2016 guidelines. Restricting prescriptions without providing treatment (whether for pain relief or addiction) drove users to illicit opioids like fentanyl and a surge in overdose deaths.

The conversation expands to systemic issues, including the corporate greed of Big Pharma, political exploitation of the crisis, and the punitive rather than rehabilitative approach to addiction. Steve and Charles highlight how austerity policies and privatization exacerbate the epidemic, disproportionately harming working class and marginalized communities. They criticize current political responses, such as RFK Jr.’s proposed cuts to addiction treatment programs in favor of ineffective "healing farms," as emblematic of a broader failure to address root causes. Both emphasize the need for compassionate, science-driven solutions over criminalization, underscoring how public health and social equity are inextricably linked. 

For more than twenty-eight years, Charles LeBaron worked as a medical epidemiologist at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). While there, he was the author of more than fifty scientific studies published in peer-reviewed journals, including first- or senior- author papers in the New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association. 

**You’re invited to join us Tuesday evening for Macro ‘n Chill, an online gathering where we can listen to and talk about this episode. Tuesday July 15, 8pm ET/5 pm PT

Click here to register

This week we're releasing an interview Steve did as a guest of Jim Byrne, host of MMT101 podcast.

Steve and Jim have much in common, so it’s interesting to hear how their approaches differ. In part, this is related to the conditions of their nationalities. Jim, in Scotland, isn’t faced with the myth of political democracy. They have a devolved government, under the thumb of Westminster, with no control over the economic levers. The demands are straightforward: more money... and independence.

Jim says he prefers to see MMT “purely as a technical – almost a technical description – with a bit of theory thrown in there, because of course T stands for theory.”

Steve describes his 15-year journey with MMT. Originally, he focused on the “wonky stuff,” the mechanics of the monetary system. He came to understand that people aren’t interested until they can see how it relates to their own lives. Today he maintains that MMT should be connected to real-world issues such as class struggle, poverty, student debt, and geopolitical conflicts like the horrific situation in Gaza.

The episode is a great conversation between two MMT activists. Despite their differences, they find they have much in common.

Jim Byrne is currently developing an MMT foundation course aimed at beginners and intermediate learners, as well as people who already know about economics but are curious about Modern Monetary Theory.

Follow his work and the MMT101 podcast at mmt101.substack.com

@MMT101DotORG

**Tuesday evenings, we host an online listening party, Macro ‘n Chill, to discuss the current episode. It’s a great way to get to know other members of the community and talk about the ideas expressed in the podcast. Join us this Tuesday, July 8th, at 8 pm ET/5 pm PTClick HERE to register 

Scott Ferguson and Ben Wilson of the Money on the Left collective discuss their ‘Blue Bonds’ proposal with Steve. They explain how states can issue bonds to mitigate the federal austerity measures being enacted under the Trump administration. The conversation explores how this approach could democratize fiscal policy at the sub-federal level and empower local governments.

Their proposal frames state-issued bonds as a democratic tool to counteract federal inefficiencies, foster local investment and engage communities in financial decision-making.

They also address the ideological and practical barriers concerning the public's grasp of economic sovereignty, stressing the importance of understanding endogenous money creation and challenging the collective fear of public debt.  

Benjamin C. Wilson is an Associate Professor of Economics at the State University of New York at Cortland and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. 

Scott Ferguson is an Associate Professor of Film & Media Studies in the Department of Humanities & Cultural Studies at the University of South Florida and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He is co-host of Money on the Left podcast featured by Monthly Review. 

Part of our mission is to introduce MMTers to socialism and socialists to MMT. We’ve had a few metaphorical doors slammed in our faces along the way. Former friends from the MMT community now delight in slinging accusations worthy of a HUAC hearing, while some socialists suspect modern monetary theory is just a sideshow of bourgeois economics. So, we didn’t know what to expect when we reached out to Justin and Jeremy, co-hosts of a podcast we’ve long admired. Compared to the vicious rejection we sometimes encounter, their good faith skepticism felt like a warm embrace. They invited Steve and Virginia to come onto Proles Pod and make a case for the radicalizing potential of MMT.  

The conversation goes into the role of the state in currency issuance, the coercive nature of taxation, and how MMT can critique and unveil the inherent power dynamics within capitalism. Austerity, that devastating weapon of class warfare, is not a glitch; it’s a feature.  

Virginia asks that listeners stop using the expression taxpayer money. “Even if you’re not ready to wrap your mind around MMT, just start calling it public money. You might not believe where it comes from but just stop. It's public money.” Given the classist, racist implications of relying on taxpayers to fund the government, a change in language is a good first step. Steve adds: “Whatever you tax, you immortalize. Whatever you tax, if you believe it's funding, you need forever.” The state is the source of currency; let’s stop elevating billionaires.  

They look at the relationship between currency manipulation, inflation, and global economic dominance. They also touch on Gramsci and the impact of cultural hegemony. Ultimately, they agree on the necessity of a class-based analysis as a prerequisite for revolutionary change. 

Proles Pod is a podcast about history, politics, and culture... without the liberalism 

 Find their work at prolespod.libsyn.com/ 

Support them at patreon.com/prolespod 

Follow them @ProlesPod on X

If civilizations are judged by how they care for their elderly, our report card is already written. Should there be anyone left to judge us – should humanity exist long enough to judge us – we’ve flunked.

Steve’s guest is Judy Karofsky, author of 'DisElderly Conduct: The Flawed Business of Assisted Living and Hospice,' who provides a critical examination of the elder care industry. Judy discusses her own struggles with assisted living facilities and hospice care, highlighting the systemic issues driven by the profit motive and lack of federal oversight. 

Assisted living is meant to be for seniors who don’t yet need a nursing home. The facilities are supposed to provide the dignity of independence with up to three hours of care per week. Unfortunately, that means from zero to three. Often, it’s zero – with no nurse on staff.

In many cases the move from independent living isn’t a health decision. It’s business. The assisted living business is about real estate investment, not the needs of our nation’s seniors. 

"Big investors, big REITs, Real Estate Investment Trusts, and yes, private equity have seen the potential and they're investing and the decision-making moves farther and farther away from the individual facility and farther and farther away from the resident.”

Steve makes a case that will be familiar to our followers: that healthcare – and its federal oversight – are policy decisions, connected to ideology. It’s the belief that there is no public money. 

”There is only private property and there's only private equity and there's only private capital. And that when you impose regulations, you're imposing undue constraints on capital to do what capital would like to do. We have to start thinking about the world differently.”

The episode illustrates the urgent need for reform in elder care. These challenges will one day touch everyone’s lives or those of their loved ones.

Judy Karofsky was a city council member and one of Wisconsin’s first women mayors (Middleton). During her term of office, she established a now-thriving senior center and emergency medical services. She served on the executive staff of a governor and held multiple roles in housing and economic development for a state agency, a nonprofit housing development organization, and her own research firm. Before organizing and providing care for her mother, Judy filled interim positions for a statewide women's network – focusing on elder economic security – and for a coalition of state aging groups. Serving on nonprofit and municipal boards, she participates in policy discussions and comments publicly on demographic trends and urban growth.

**On Tuesday evening, C. Derick Varn will join us AGAIN for Macro ‘n Chill, our weekly community gathering. While listening to this episode, we will have the opportunity to ask questions and engage in discussion about Part Two. June 17th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PTClick HERE to register 

The second half of Steve’s conversation with Derick Varn goes into the history of the socialist movement from the 1960s to the present.  

Derick traces some of the current factionalism back to the ideological battles between Trotsky and Stalin covered in Part One of this series. This includes the debates on ‘socialism in one country’ versus international socialism. He covers further divisions within Trotskyism, the Red Scare’s successful suppression of the CPUSA, and the formation of the Black Panthers. He describes the rise of Maoism, its influence on student movements in the West, and further ideological splits. 

Steve and Derick emphasize that historical developments are always connected to the material conditions of their time. Even the Bernie Sanders movement. They talk of the struggles intrinsic to past and present socialist organizations and reflect on the modern implications of these ideologies and the challenges of organizing under current capitalist conditions. 

“In the ‘Eighteenth Brumaire,’ Marx talks about how all great revolutions play-act a revolutionary moment of the past. So, for him... he talked about the English Civil War and the Bible, and the French Revolution, and the Roman Empire. 

“We are stuck LARPing the past because we don't know what the future is.” 

C. Derick Varn is a poet, teacher, and political theorist. He is the host of Varn Vlog. He was a reader at Zer0 books from 2015 to 2021. He spent most of the 2010s outside the U.S. in the Republic of Korea, Mexico, and Egypt. He is the author of the poetry collections, Apocalyptics and Liberation and All the Bright Etcetera.  

https://varnblog.substack.com 

Find all his links athttps://allmylinks.com/dionysuseatsyou 

**This Tuesday evening, C. Derick Varn will join us for Macro ‘n Chill, our weekly community gathering. While listening to this episode, folks will have the opportunity to ask questions and engage in discussion. June 10th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PTClick HERE to register 

This episode is the first of a two-part discussion delving into historical splits within socialism. C. Derick Varn, the host of Varn Vlog, has an extensive background in philosophy, anthropology, and history. He takes us from the First and Second Internationals to the ideological divergences of Trotskyism and Stalinism. He also discusses the factions within Leninism, the impact of World War I on socialist strategies, and the emergence of Trotskyist and Marxist-Leninist thought. The episode navigates through key historical figures, including Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. Of course it wouldn’t be Macro N Cheese without a look at Modern Monetary Theory and its place in a discussion of socialist theory. 

C. Derick Varn is a poet, teacher, and political theorist. He is the host of Varn Vlog. He was a reader at Zer0 books from 2015 to 2021. He spent most of the 2010s outside the U.S. in the Republic of Korea, Mexico, and Egypt. He is the author of the poetry collections, Apocalyptics and Liberation and All the Bright Etcetera. 

https://varnblog.substack.com

Find all his links athttps://allmylinks.com/dionysuseatsyou 

 .

There's an oft-repeated Chris Hedges quote that goes: “I do not fight fascists because I will win. I fight fascists because they are fascists.” Well, that’s how we feel about the banks. Revolutionary change is only possible when people understand the institutions of power. The banking system plays a huge role in perpetuating class division and disciplining labor. 

Christopher Shaw is the author of Money, Power, and the People. He talks to Steve about America’s long struggle to democratize banking, drawing connections between past and present economic conditions and inequalities. The discussion spans the creation of the Federal Reserve, populist movements, and key moments of financial reform from the Gilded Age to the New Deal. 

Delving into the history of banking and economic injustice, he emphasizes grassroots movements led by farmers, workers, and unions against banking oligarchies. Key periods include the post-Civil War Gilded Age, the Panic of 1907, and the Great Depression. The conversation transitions to recent times, highlighting the deregulation era, the rise of neoliberalism, and movements like Occupy Wall Street. As always Steve challenges the audience to learn from history, stressing that real change requires collective action. 

Christopher W. Shaw is a historian, author, and policy analyst. He has written extensively on the postal system, and the history of banking, money, labor, agriculture, and social movements. Most recently, he has authored First Class: The U.S. Postal Service, Democracy, and the Corporate Threat (City Lights Books, 2021) as well as Money, Power, and the People: The American Struggle to Make Banking Democratic (University of Chicago Press, 2019). 

@chris_w_shaw on Twitter

The podcast focuses on the critical need to address the root causes of health and environmental crises, emphasizing that many diseases, including cancer, are largely influenced by environmental factors and capitalism's exploitative nature. Hamza Hamouchene talks about his reasons for leaving a career in cancer research, highlighting the disillusionment he faced when he realized that the focus was on profit rather than genuine health solutions.

Hamza and Steve make a case against a capitalist system that not only externalizes costs related to health and the environment but also perpetuates inequities, particularly affecting marginalized communities. They delve into interconnected struggles from climate justice to the fight against imperialism, and stress the importance of collective action and the need for a revolutionary vision that prioritizes social and economic justice. Ultimately, the episode serves as a call to action for listeners to engage in grassroots movements and challenge the status quo, advocating for an ecosocialist future where health and environmental care are public goods rather than commodities.

Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), and Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA). He previously worked for War on Want, Global Justice Now and Platform London on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and trade justice. 

This episode features sharp commentary on the current geopolitical landscape, exploring why China continues to thrive despite the chaotic shifting of US policies. 

Our friend Carl Zha brings his vast knowledge of China and delves into the shifting global dynamics with the US. He and Steve examine the absurdity of the US government's approach to trade, particularly the impact of tariffs and sanctions on its own economy, while China strategically positions itself as a rising power.  

Steve likens the US to a schoolyard bully caught off-guard, while Carl offers insights into China's long-term planning and adaptability in the face of external pressures. The discussion touches on various aspects, from economic strategies to cultural perceptions. They engage in a broad critique of the US leadership’s focus on military dominance while it fails to invest in domestic infrastructure.  

Carl Zha hosts Silk and Steel, a weekly podcast discussing history, culture, and current events of China and the Silk Road. Support him at patreon.com/silknsteel. His YouTube channel ishttps://www.youtube.com/@CarlZha. 

As difficult as it is to get a handle on the chaos and confusion of Trump’s shifting policies, we continue to ask wise friends for their perspective. This week Steve is speaking with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, a founder of MMT and a regular guest of this podcast. Bill helps us unpack the capitalist contradictions driving global instability.

Steve asks if we should be looking at Trump’s actions as a continuation of the neoliberal trajectory as described in Bill’s book, Reclaiming the State. Bill replies that he doesn't even see it as a natural extension of neoliberalism:

“Neoliberalism is about co-opting the state to pursue advantage for selected groups in the society, the top end of town, as I call them. So there's an element of that, but there's sort of a deep irrationality going on here. Neoliberalism is a systematic, contrived pattern of behavior and strategy, whereas it's hard to assess whether there is anything systematic and strategic going on here.”

Bill elaborates on the irrational policy decisions like tariffs and their failure to revive American manufacturing, as well as the repercussions of reduced public investment in education and infrastructure. He talks about international reactions and global repercussions.  

He and Steve also critique the role of social media and the dangerous effects of the dominant ideological bias. Bill suggests that the disillusionment with traditional political parties is driving many towards reactionary extremism. They discuss the severe decline in education and the move to control universities through ideological audits.

Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. His most recent books are Modern Monetary Theory: BIll and Warren’s Excellent Adventure, co-authored with Warren Mosler (2024), and the Modern Monetary Theory textbook, Macroeconomics, co-authored with L. Randall Wray and Martin Watts (2019).

Follow Bill’s work at https://billmitchell.org/blog/

The past year has seen lots of discussion of the ‘human’ nature of AI. Programs like ChatGPT were writing poetry, engaging in debates, and roasting users with witty retorts. Educators have been facing more serious concerns as they navigate a world in which students no longer need to learn to do their own research, writing, or thinking. But the militarization of AI makes these other activities seem like Donkey Kong. 

Investigative journalist Peter Byrne joins Steve to talk about the treacherous relationship between technology, capitalism, and militarization. They discuss how companies like Palantir, funded by figures such as Peter Thiel, have leveraged vast amounts of capital—often government-funded—to develop this militarized AI. In other words, venture capitalists and tech startups are shaping modern warfare.

Peter draws historical parallels, explaining that the automation of warfare is not a new phenomenon but has evolved significantly since the days of analog computers in World War II. It only increases its destructive capabilities by unthinkable magnitudes. 

We would do well to remember that machine learning models are incapable of achieving true intelligence. They reflect the ideology and interests of those who are responsible for them.

Peter Byrne is an award-winning investigative science reporter who has long uncovered corruption at the nexus of science and industry. Now, in partnership with Project Censored, Byrne has launched Military AI Watch, a groundbreaking ten-part series that will run monthly on Project Censored’s website.

https://www.projectcensored.org/military-ai-watch/

“When you are a dominant empire like the US, economically, militarily, geopolitically, and you make bets that are exclusively based on power rather than technology, innovation, research and development, education, a growing prosperous middle class, history tells us that you will eventually fail. And that's the ugly reality.” 

Like most media nowadays, we seek to make sense of the confusing, contradictory, and often absurd Trump policies. So of course we turn to our best friend and most frequent guest, economist Fadhel Kaboub.

Fadhel suggests that Trump has two missions: reinforcing the US imperialist-dominant position that is currently under threat, and reinforcing his legacy, the MAGA movement, and the supremacy of the Republican Party for years to come. Ironically there are even two Elon Musks in the White House: 

“There's Elon Musk, Twitter, and there's Elon Musk, Tesla, and the other tech stuff. The interest that the Trump administration is going to serve is not Tesla. It's going to be the Facebooks, the cloud technologists ... the techno-feudalists who run the world today.  

“The importance of the techno-feudalists is that they don't actually manufacture things, they don't produce things. They control the cloud, they control the mind, they control your feelings, your choices... not just consumer choices, but political social worldviews are controlled and manipulated by social media and by the big data centers that collect and analyze and feed you choices and filter the news and filter information for you.” 

In their discussion, Fadhel points out the absurdity of thinking tariffs will “bring back jobs” to the US. He also explains that companies like Apple aren’t manufacturing in China for cheap labor, but because China has the high-skilled workers. Instead of investing in education in the US, Trump boasts of making cuts.

Fadhel explains that Trump’s negotiation strategy relies on creating chaos and confusion. In comparison, China’s path is starkly different, including creation of the digital yuan as an international payment system to bypass SWIFT and the dollar.

Fadhel and Steve remind us that both US political parties are guilty of perpetuating the false narrative of fiscal constraints. As always, listeners are challenged to question the prevailing mainstream rhetoric and look for the deeper motivations behind it.

Fadhel Kaboub is an associate professor of economics at Denison University (presently on leave) and the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He’s the author of Global South Perspectives on Substack.

Find his work at globalsouthperspectives.substack.com 

@FadhelKaboub on Twitter 

This week’s episode comes from Steve’s recent appearance on The Tracy Show, where he was invited to talk about MMT with host Tracy Carson, who had some questions.

Tracy: Okay, I'm going to tell you what I think I understand about Modern Monetary Theory or MMT. I'm just going to go with MMT. The federal government can pretty much generate money out of thin air. 

Steve: It does. It's the only way it works. Yes. 

Tracy: Okay. Okay, so I got that part right. [pause] Basically, that's pretty much where I'm at in terms of my understanding. 

Actually, it wasn’t the only thing Tracy understood. She knew that states rely on taxes, unlike the federal government. She knew that federal budget deficits are not a crisis. And she knew that those simple facts have huge implications for the government’s ability to provide national health care, for example, while state-based health care is virtually impossible and propels a race to the bottom. In a nation that has spent $8 trillion on war, post 9/11, there is no excuse for poverty. There’s an explanation, but no excuse.  

The conversation covers the destruction of essential services through deliberate under-funding, with austerity as a policy choice. They look at the illusion of the “national debt” at home as well as IMF manipulation of the global South. 

Many of us have experienced moments when we clearly recognize the truth yet lack the knowledge or language to explain it. In seeking the tools to fully articulate it, Tracy is actively moving herself beyond those moments. We should all be so motivated. Learning MMT is a process. Others will hear about it from her and begin their own journey. When it comes to knowledge, there are no resource constraints. #EachOneTeachOne 

Tracy Carson is the host of The Tracy Show and an organizer of the March for Medicare for All in her home state of Indiana.  

“Humanity... is at a critical moment in history where the decisions that we make could have massive, massive implications, for our future trajectory, for the future trajectory of human civilization over the next two centuries. Those decisions can either ensure that we have a prosperous millennium or that we have a disastrous one.”

Erald Kolasi joins Steve to talk about his book, The Physics of Capitalism. Erald’s interdisciplinary approach merges economics, technology, energy, and ecological dynamics. He explains that science can provide facts and data about the world, but to address the challenges we need to go beyond physics. Solutions will depend on the political, economic, and social spheres.

The discussion includes the flaws of neoclassical economic models, the limitations of technological innovation in solving ecological crises, and the necessity of systemic changes for a sustainable future. Erald describes a vision for a new political and economic order that emphasizes ecological stability, socialization, modularity, and localized production.

Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work at his website, www.eraldkolasi.com.

Crazy things have been going on with the price of eggs, especially in the US. If you think this is happening because of the avian flu, you’ve been hoodwinked. Again. 

Basel Musharbash, an antitrust and trade regulation attorney, joins Steve to pull back the curtain on the monopoly forces within the egg supply chain. The discussion reveals crucial and surprising information about this, um, bread and butter issue.  

The episode explores the role of avian flu and how it has been weaponized by a few corporations to tighten their stranglehold on the market. With just three companies controlling crucial choke points in the egg supply chain, Basel explains how these oligopolies are not merely reacting to external pressures but are actively manipulating supply.   

Steve and Basel also look at the historical context of antitrust laws and how their erosion has led to the current monopolist landscape. 

Once again, consumers are getting screwed by an industry whose structure is designed to do just that. 

Basel Musharbash is an antitrust and trade regulation lawyer with a focus on building stronger rural economies. He represents family farmers, small businesses, and local governments (as well as groups working on their behalf) in regulatory advocacy and impact litigation aimed at righting the wrongs of concentrated corporate power in rural America — and building a free and fair economy for all. 

His work has been covered in or on Reuters, AP, Time Magazine, CNBC, The Today Show, Politico, The American Prospect, DTN-PF, Daily Yonder, and other media outlets. 

@musharbash_b on Twitter 

Steve’s guest is noted economist L. Randall Wray, one of the early developers of modern money theory. As many times as this podcast has talked about MMT, it’s always topical. In fact, just last week, Elon Musk discovered 14 magic money computers in government agencies! 

So, Trump had to hire the richest man in the world who hired who knows how many hundreds of young tech kids to discover what we've been saying for 30 years, which is that Congress appropriates money, and then the computers keystroke it into people's accounts. 

There's no mystery about this at all, but they think they've discovered not only something that people didn't know, but something that's, oh, it's so scary. It's nefarious that the government uses computers to increase the size of people's accounts. Well, that's spending. That's the way it's done. 

Clearly, this is a good time to revisit the valuable insights of MMT and look at the implications for building a society that serves its people. 

This episode dives deep into the fundamentals, debunking misconceptions about government spending, the role of taxes, and the myth that the US government can run out of money, like a household.  

Randy and Steve talk about changes in the economy due to financialization, and the difference between budget constraints and inflation constraints. Randy explains why we need to look at the history of debt in order to understand money. He talks about banking, including transactions between the Federal Reserve and the Treasury.  

The conversation breaks down complex concepts into relatable terms, sometimes with a touch of humor.

Illustrating the creation of currency, Randy describes an imaginary scenario in which the fictional characters Robinson Crusoe and Friday devise a currency to facilitate barter. 

Randy: So, they come up with the idea of, ‘hey, we can use seashells as a medium of exchange.’ And this is where money came from. It was Robinson Crusoe and Friday. Okay, think about this a little bit. It's pretty bizarre. We've got Crusoe and Friday marooned on a desert island. I can think of two much more likely scenarios. Okay, one, Crusoe came from Europe. What do Europeans do when they come across native people? 

Steve: Kill them. 

Anyone with an interest in how the economy truly operates will learn something from this episode.

L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, and Emeritus Professor at University of Missouri-Kansas City. He is one of the developers of Modern Money Theory and his newest book on the topic is Understanding Modern Money Theory: Money and Credit in Capitalist Economies (Elgar), forthcoming in spring 2025.  

Recent books on MMT include Making Money Work for Us (Polity, November 2022), a companion illustrated guide, Money For Beginners (Polity, May 2023, with Levy Institute graduate Heske Van Doornen), and the third edition of Modern Money Theory: A Primer on Macroeconomics for Sovereign Monetary Systems (Springer, 2024). He is also the author of Why Minsky Matters (Princeton, 2015) as well as the author, co-author, and editor of many other books. 

Find more of his work at levyinstitute.org 

**Every Tuesday night, we gather online to listen to the episode and discuss it among friends. Everyone is invited to this community building event. Bring your insights and questions.REGISTER HEREfor Tuesday, March 25th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT



Steve’s guest is Michael McCarthy, author of 'The Master's Tools: How Finance Wrecked Democracy and a Radical Plan to Rebuild It.' They explore McCarthy's analysis of financialization as a deliberate class project to dismantle working-class power and exacerbate inequality.

They look at the historical shift from a robust Social Security system to a privatized, financialized pension system as well as the rise of neoliberal policies post-1970s, facilitated by monetary policy changes (anybody remember the gold standard?)  The conversation goes into the failure of both traditional and direct democracies to serve the working class.

The episode also weaves through MMT perspectives and the impact of government policies. They touch on the potential of public banking and democratizing finance to empower the working class as well as the challenges of implementing these ideas.

Michael A. McCarthy is an Associate Professor of Sociology and Director of Community Studies at the University of California, Santa Cruz. His book Dismantling Solidarity: Capitalist Politics and American Pensions since the New Deal was awarded the Paul Sweezy Book Award as well as an honorable mention for the Labor and Labor Movements Book Award. His most recent book is The Master's Tools: How Finance Wrecked Democracy (And a Radical Plan to Rebuild It). Mike has written for the Boston Review, The Guardian, Jacobin, Noema, and the Washington Post.

@its_mccarthy on X 

Near the start of this episode, Yeva Nersisyan talks with Steve about leftist economists who are still wedded to the belief that government spending relies on taxpayer money. She says if an academic on the left uses the ‘taxpayer dollar’ framing, then you cannot be surprised when the right uses it too – to say they’re saving taxpayer money, cutting wastefulness, cutting inefficiency. It’s why being consistent is so important. If one side can use it, the other side can too.

“It leads to the Elon Musks of the world using this taxpayer money trope to basically take a sledgehammer or a chainsaw to the public sector.” 

Yeva and Steve revisit some basics of MMT, including the understanding that a government is not like a household.  

Our own spending doesn't really affect our own income. We'll still get our wages, we will still have that, and then we will continue consuming, but consuming less and therefore end up with more savings. 

But it doesn't work for the economy as a whole. Because for the economy as a whole, if spending goes down, that means there is now less income, and less income means someone somewhere is earning less and therefore they have to cut their consumption and they also have to cut their saving. And it becomes this cycle where, okay, someone cut their consumption, now someone else is earning less or the grocery store is earning less, right? And now they have to fire their workers. Now their workers don't have income and they are spending less, and so on and so forth. 

Yeva and Steve go into other insights of MMT, including sectoral balances and the reality of the so-called national debt.  

They unravel the absurd dynamics of current economic policy and look at the implications of proposed spending cuts by the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE. Fallout from the government's ruthless abandonment of social programs will be disastrous.  

Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA. She received her B.A. in economics from Yerevan State University in Armenia, and her M.A. and Ph.D. in economics and mathematics from the University of Missouri-Kansas City. She is a macroeconomist working in the Modern Money Theory, Post-Keynesian, and Institutionalist traditions. Her research interests include banking and financial instability, and fiscal and monetary theory and policy. She has published a number of papers on the topics of shadow banking, fiscal policy, government deficits and debt, and the Green New Deal. Nersisyan is currently coediting the Elgar Companion to Modern Money Theory with L. Randall Wray. 

Find her work at levyinstitute.org/publications/yeva-nersisyan 

If you ever find yourself asking “What’s left?” you’re in good company. Today’s left is often indistinguishable from neoliberal centrism. 

Steve’s guests are Simon Winlow and Steve Hall, authors of the book, The Death of the Left: Why We Must Begin from the Beginning Again.They talk about the historical shifts that have led to ideological collapse, disconnection from the working class and the embrace of individualism over collective action.

The conversation emphasizes the urgent need for a revival of working-class politics that transcend identity divisions and focus on collective struggles against economic neoliberalism and austerity.

Simon Winlow is Professor of Social Sciences at Northumbria University, UK. A fellow of the Academy of Social Sciences, his work is particularly well known in the fields of criminology, sociology and contemporary political analysis. He is the author or co-author of the following books: Badfellas (Berg, 2001); Bouncers (Oxford University Press, 2003); Violent Night (Berg, 2006); Criminal Identities and Consumer Culture (Willan, 2008); Rethinking Social Exclusion (Sage, 2012); Riots and Political Protest (Routledge, 2015); Revitalizing Criminological Theory (Routledge, 2015); Rise of the Right (Policy, 2017); Death of the Left (Policy, 2022), and The Politics of Nostalgia (Emerald, 2025). 

@winlow_s 

Steve Hall is Emeritus Professor of Criminology at the University of Teesside. He is a polymath who has published in the fields of criminology, sociology, anthropology, history, economic history, political theory and philosophy. He is also co-author of Violent Night (Berg 2006, with Simon Winlow), Rethinking Social Exclusion (Sage 2013, with Simon Winlow), Riots and Political Protest (Routledge 2015, with Simon Winlow, James Treadwell and Daniel Briggs), Revitalizing Criminological Theory (Routledge 2015, with Simon Winlow), The Rise of the Right (with Simon Winlow and James Treadwell) and The Death of the Left (with Simon Winlow). He is co-editor of New Directions in Criminological Theory (Routledge 2012, with Simon Winlow). In 2017 he received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the international Extreme Anthropology Research Network at the University of Vienna. 

@ProfHall1955 

Control of information is a vital weapon of the ruling class in its war on the people. Critical media literacy is more important now than it has ever been. For the past year we’ve been drowning in imbalanced coverage of the war on Gaza. (How many times did mainstream news outlets use the word ‘genocide’?) It’s just one example – and it’s an outrage.   

Steve’s guest is Shealeigh Voitl, Project Censored’s digital and print editor. They discuss the media’s role in shaping public perception and delve into the systemic disinformation propagated by corporate and academic institutions. While sensational inconsequential stories dominate the headlines, the voices and experiences of the working class and the marginalized are silenced. 

Steve and Shealeigh look at the power dynamics inherent in media ownership, reinforcing inequality and promoting working class subjugation. Passive news consumption is the equivalent of unilateral disarmament.  

Shealeigh Voitl is the digital and print editor at Project Censored. She first began her research with the Project at North Central College alongside Steve Macek, co-authoring the Déjá Vu News chapter in the State of the Free Press 2022 and 2023 yearbooks, and the Top 25 chapter in SFP 2023. In addition to her editorial contributions to the yearbook series and work with the Campus Affiliates Program, Shealeigh helped develop the State of the Free Press 2024 teaching guide and the Project’s “Critical Media Literacy in Action” social media series. Her writing has also been featured in Truthout, The Progressive, and Ms. Magazine. 

Thomas Fazi joins Steve once again, this time to explore the current geopolitical landscape under Trump 2.0 and the absurdity of an American empire that creates enemies out of thin air to justify its ongoing military and economic interventions.

The conversation touches on the implications of austerity measures on the working class and the irony of billionaires like Elon Musk advocating for cuts to government spending while enjoying the benefits of public funding via massive subsidies.

With a touch of sarcasm, Thomas & Steve critique how the political elite manipulate narratives to maintain control and distract from the real issues facing ordinary citizens. They remind us of the need to critically examine the intricate relationship between power, propaganda, and the everyday lives of people.

Thomas Fazi is a “journalist/writer/translator/socialist.” who lives in Italy. He is the co-director of Standing Army (2010), an award-winning feature-length documentary on US military bases featuring Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky; and the author of The Battle for Europe: How an Elite Hijacked a Continent – and How We Can Take It Back (2014) and Reclaiming the State: A Progressive Vision of Sovereignty for a Post-Neoliberal World (co-authored with Bill Mitchell, 2017). His articles have appeared in numerous online and printed publications. Find links to his articles on his Substack.

@battleforeurope on Twitter 

John Perkins is a storyteller. His stories tell of his work as an economic hit man, creator of a death economy that is polluting and consuming itself into extinction. He has served as advisor to the World Bank, UN, IMF, Fortune 500 corporations, and government and business leaders across the globe. 

“You know, my job was pretty easy, generally speaking, because I was offering the president of a country or his finance minister, whoever, a big loan. And the fact that this loan would help him and his family, his friends – they owned the businesses in most cases – they were the ones who benefited from big infrastructure” 

 “They knew that if they didn't accept this deal, the people we call the jackals would come in and they would either overthrow or assassinate the President, whoever was responsible. And, you know, the United States has admitted to this over and over. Allende in Chile, Mossadegh in Iran, Lumumba in the Congo. My two clients. We haven't admitted to that one yet, but we have admitted to Diem in Vietnam and more recently [Manuel] Zelaya in Honduras. We've admitted to these things.” 

For seven out of his ten years as an economic hit man, John believed what he was taught in business school: to help a poor country pull itself out of poverty, you invest heavily in infrastructure. Statistically this can be shown to increase the country’s economy – its GDP and GDP per capita. Per capita implies that everybody in the country is participating, but that's just not true. “GDP primarily measures how well the wealthy are doing and the big corporations.” 

John’s insights are not merely theoretical; they are rooted in personal experience. In other episodes of this podcast, we’ve talked about cycles of debt that sink global South nations into dire poverty. In this conversation, John recounts the manipulative tactics for securing lucrative contracts for US corporations across the globe, thus creating these debt traps. 

To repair the damage, John urges a radical shift towards a ‘life economy’—one that focuses on sustainability, equity, and regeneration. 

John Perkins served as Chief Economist at a major consulting firm and was advisor to the World Bank, UN, IMF, Fortune 500 corporations, and government and business leaders in Africa, Asia, Latin America, the Middle East, and the United States. Before that, he apprenticed with shamans when he lived in the Amazon rainforest from 1968 to 1971 and has since studied with shamans from many different cultures. His eleven books on economics, shamanism, and transformation include theConfessions of an Economic Hit Man trilogy;Shapeshifting; The World Is as You Dream It; and Touching the Jaguar. They have been on the New York Times bestseller list for more than 70 weeks, sold millions of copies, and are published in at least 38 languages. 

https://johnperkins.org/ 

Depressed about the state of the world? Meet podcast hosts, Dai Poole and David Kugler, who are able to talk about the depressing stuff, yet manage to have a little fun along the way. In November, they brought Steve onto Call Me Limbo because they’re interested in Modern Monetary Theory (smart guys). A few months have passed since then, and things have changed in the US.   

The episode dives right into the thorny questions of divisiveness and weaponized identity politics. Anything that further divides us is dangerous, but anti-wokeness threatens the very people who are most vulnerable. The opposite of woke is sleep. 

Dai suggests “we've become so hyper focused on individuality that our individuality – our ‘rugged individualism’ – has just become rugged narcissism. We've gotten to the point (where) patriotism just means loving the idea of America more than loving the people that make up America.” 

Throughout the episode the three talk about working class solidarity and the need for collective struggle. In conversation and in their podcast, David and Dai include psychological insights as well as a therapeutic dose of humor.  

Check out David & Dai’s Call Me Limbo Substack https://callmelimbopod.substack.com/ 

David Kugler and Dai Poole are hosts of the award-winning Call Me Limbo, a weekly podcast that brings the concept of the Fireside Chat into the 21st Century.

“We need to understand the limits of capitalism. Capitalism has serious limits in the sense that it puts exchange value over use value. And this is by definition irrational according to logic of need, but very rational according to logic of profit... 

But we also need to understand that we are the ones who have produced the system. That's where the empowering voice comes out, because it says, okay, if we have created it, we can also change it. 

And guess what? The system is really fragile. That's why we need austerity constantly to protect it.” 

Economist Clara Mattei talks to Steve about the launch of the Center for Heterodox Economics (CHE) on the eve of its inaugural conference, February 6th through 8th, in Tulsa, OK. 

In the episode, Clara expresses her frustration with the inadequacies of mainstream economic education that neglects the real-life challenges faced by students and communities and explains that the CHE is being designed to break down traditional academic barriers and elitism. 

She mentions names of some participants in the upcoming conference, including Jamie Galbraith, Anwar Shaikh, Branko Milanovic, and Robert Brenner. 

From the Mission page on its website, the CHE is built on the following pillars:  

1. Critical Political Economy: Understanding the dynamics of power, class, and social relations that shape economic outcomes.   

2. Critical History of Economic Thought and Economic History: Exploring diverse schools of thought and the historical evolution of economic systems to inform our understanding of contemporary challenges.   

3. Praxis: Economics, at its core, should be about more than analysis—it should be about action. At CHE, we are dedicated to producing knowledge that not only explains the world but transforms it. 

For information, go to https://sites.utulsa.edu/chetu/ 

Clara E. Mattei is Professor of Economics and Director of the Center for Heterodox Economics (CHE). She previously taught at the The New School for Social Research Economics Department and has been a fellow of the Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton. Her research contributes to the history of capitalism, exploring the critical relation between economic ideas and technocratic policy making. Her first book, The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism (University of Chicago Press 2022) is translated in over 10 languages. Her current book project critically reassesses the Golden Age of Capitalism (1945-1975) and its Keynesianism through the lens of austerity capitalism.

“It's a wound. Palestine is a wound that doesn't go away because it's ignored.” 

Where there is oppression, there is resistance. Even when it seems invisible to outsiders, it can always be found in the art and culture of the oppressed. 

Malu Halasa and Jordan Elgrably, of the Markaz Review, talk to Steve about Sumud: A New Palestinian Reader,an anthology of essays, poetry, fiction, memoirs, and art. 

Sumud is translated to mean ‘steadfastness’ or ‘standing fast.’ Recounting the work of author and human rights lawyer Raja Sheheda, Malu adds: 

“Sumud is practiced by every man, woman and child in Palestine, struggling on his or her own to learn to cope with and resist the pressures of living as a member of a conquered people. Sumud is watching your home turned into a prison ... It is developing from an all-encompassing form of life into a form of resistance that unites the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation.” 

Malu and Jordan highlight the ongoing violence and erasure faced by Palestinians, particularly in Gaza, where artistic expression becomes a vital form of resistance against dehumanization. The Israelis are intentional in their attempt to erase the art, culture, and memories of Palestine. Like the destruction of hospitals, schools, and arable land, it is intrinsic to the genocide. 

The conversation also touches on the implications of US support for Israel. Gaza has become an international display of arms and weaponized AI, serving the military industrial complex and global perpetrators of the endless war. 

Malu Halasa, Literary Editor at The Markaz Review, is a Jordanian Filipina American writer and editor. Her latest edited anthology is Woman Life Freedom: Voices and Art From the Women’s Protests in Iran (Saqi Books, 2023) has been shortlisted for the 2024 Bread & Roses Prize for Radical Publishing.. Previous co-edited anthologies include: Syria Speaks: Art and Culture from the Frontline (Saqi Books, 2014) among others. She has written for The Guardian, Financial Times and Times Literary Supplement. Her debut novel, Mother of All Pigs (Unnamed Press, 2017), was described as: “a microcosmic portrait of … a patriarchal order in slow-motion decline” by the New York Times. Halasa has been writing about Palestine for the past thirty years. 

Jordan Elgrably is a Franco-American and Moroccan writer and translator, whose stories and creative nonfiction have appeared in numerous anthologies and reviews, including Apulée, Salmagundi, and the Paris Review. Editor-in-chief and founder of The Markaz Review, he is the cofounder and former director of the Levantine Cultural Center/The Markaz in Los Angeles (2001–2020), and producer of the stand-up comedy show “The Sultans of Satire” (2005–2017) and hundreds of other public programs. Most recently he is the editor of Stories from the Center of the World: New Middle East Fiction (City Lights 2024). He is based in Montpellier, France and California.

Running for office is a fool’s errand if you think you can win and radically change the system from within. But an election campaign can serve other purposes for political organizers. A campaign provides a platform, a megaphone... media attention. The process of campaigning puts you in touch with people in the community. As Steve puts it, an election allows you to “build coalitions and radicalize people.”  

Jen Perelman’s need to run against Debbie Wasserman Schultz was clear:  

“I knew that we weren't going to win, but we made significant strides in what my bigger mission is. At the end of the day, I just was not going to sit there and let her represent Jewish people and not stand up for Palestine.” 

Steve has been on Jen’s show, JENerational Change, a number of times, where he has successfully convinced her of the validity and value of MMT. In this interview we get her take-aways from her most recent campaign. She and Steve talk about the popularity of programs that would provide jobs and healthcare. Election results represent the needs of capital, not the public.  

The conversation also touches on the moral implications of violence and how societal structures perpetuate violence against marginalized groups. 

Jen Perelman is host of the podcast and YouTube show, JENerational Change. She is a native Floridian and has run against Debbie Wasserman Schultz twice. So far, she has not won in the traditional sense. On Jen’s Linkedin profile, she explains: 

“From my earliest days of practicing law, I've fought for those who can’t fight for themselves. I've helped the poor & indigent receive proper counsel and helped young women receive a judicial bypass for an onerous process for their reproductive rights.”  

@JenforFL25 on X 

When there’s an attack on a high profile (read: white) target in the US, media attention is aimed at the perpetrators. If the act was politically motivated, that fact is either used to explain their psychopathy or dismissed altogether. The December shooting death of a UnitedHealthcare CEO has had a different reaction. As soon as the news broke, public sympathy was drawn to the shooter. The American people have too many horror stories about being denied medical coverage. 

Jordan Chariton, of Status Coup News, joins Steve to look at the significance of this story as representation of people’s outrage against a system designed to ignore people’s needs and reward the economic elite. As Jordan suggests, Luigi Mangione, the alleged perpetrator, wasn’t just attacking the health insurance industry, he was attacking predatory capitalism. 

Steve and Jordan discuss events of the past few decades, the futility of traditional political avenues, and the inevitability of a public breaking point and working-class uprising. Jordan’s coverage of the Flint and East Palestine crises have brought him into the lives of Americans who have been lied to and left to suffer the consequences of corporate malfeasance. 

If murder at gunpoint is immoral, can you keep making excuses for murder by policy?

Jordan Chariton, Status Coup CEO, is an independent progressive journalist who has worked inside and outside the belly of the corporate media beast for over a decade. He worked at Fox, MSNBC, and TYT, before starting Status Coup. He is the author of the 2024 book, “We the Poisoned: Exposing the Flint Water Crisis Cover-up and the Poisoning of 100,000 Americans.” statuscoup.com 

@JordanChariton on X 

@StatusCoup 

History doesn’t stand still, and every time we talk about BRICS on this podcast, there’s more to unpack. To understand the significance of BRICS, we must begin with (wait for it) monetary sovereignty.   

Economist Yan Liang is an expert on China’s economy and MMT. She joins Steve to discuss the evolving role of the BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) and the increasing number of countries becoming involved in challenging US dollar hegemony and the current global financial system. 

Weaponizing of the US dollar has reached an all-time high. Yan explains the specific ways in which US-dominated international institutions and dollar dependency impede development in the Global South.   

The episode looks at the significance of de-dollarization and its possible longterm effects. Yan also touches on the importance of technology transfer and intellectual property rights in building sustainable economies. 

Yan Liang is Peter C and Bonnie S Kremer Chair Professor of Economics at Willamette University. She is also a Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute, a Non-Resident Senior Fellow at the Global Development Policy Center (Boston University), and a Research Scholar of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. 

Yan specializes in the Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), the Political Economy of China, Economic Development, and International Economics. Yan's current research focuses on China's development finance and industrial transformation, and China's role in the global financial architecture. 

@YanLian31677392 on X 

What’s the point of understanding money if we don’t look at the power relations controlling its distribution? 

Bill Mitchell, a key figure in the development of modern monetary theory, is back for his twelfth appearance on the podcast, beginning with Episode One, Putting the T in MMT.  

As a key figure in the development of MMT, Bill articulates how this theory fundamentally challenges conventional economic wisdom by asserting that governments, as currency issuers, are not financially constrained in the same manner as households or businesses.  

This critical insight dispels the prevailing narrative that insists the government cannot afford to invest in social programs. This forces us to look not only at political choices, but the class power behind those choices. 

The conversation delves into the dynamics of class conflict, inflation, and the role of private banks in shaping the financial landscape. Economic austerity, rising costs, and stagnant wages force the working class to take on more and more private debt.  

Bill Mitchell is Professor of Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE) at the University of Newcastle, NSW Australia. He is also the Docent Professor of Global Political Economy at the University of Helsinki, Finland, and Guest International Professor at Kyoto University, Japan. 

Bill is a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop.    

Follow his work on https://billmitchell.org/blog/   

Can you imagine granting personhood to AI entities? Well, some of us couldn’t imagine granting personhood to corporations. And yet... look how that panned out.

In this episode, Steve talks with Duke law professor James Boyle about his new book, The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood. 

James explains the development of his interest in the topic; it began with the idea of empathy. 

(Then) moved to the idea of AI as the analogy to corporate personhood. And then the final thing – and maybe the most interesting one to me – is how encounters with AI would change our conceptions of ourselves. Human beings have always tried to set ourselves as different from non-human animals, different from the natural universe. 

Sentences no longer imply sentience. And since language is one of the reasons we set human beings up as bigger and better and superior to other things, what will that do to our sense of ourselves? And what would happen if instead of being a chatbot, it was actually an entity that more plausibly possessed consciousness. 

Steve and James discuss the ways in which science fiction affects our thinking about these things, using Blade Runner and Star Trek to look at the ethical dilemmas we might face. As AI becomes increasingly more integrated into our society, we will need to consider the full range of implications. 

James Boyle is the William Neil Reynolds Professor of Law at Duke Law School, founder of the Center for the Study of the Public Domain, and former chair of Creative Commons. He is the author of The Public Domain: Enclosing the Commons of the Mind, and Shamans, Software, and Spleens. He is co-author of two comic books, and the winner of the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Pioneer Award for his work on digital civil liberties.

Paul Gambles is back to help us unpack China's recent issuance of US dollar-denominated sovereign bonds in Saudi Arabia. 

Paul begins by setting up the historical context. He takes us back to the end of the second World War and the Bretton Woods agreement, designed to bring a new world order, putting the US dollar as the global funding currency. China’s move signals a challenge to the petrodollar system – providing nations with new avenues for financing as an alternative to dollar dependency. 

Paul looks at the Global South in light of China’s behavior, including the Belt and Road initiative. Its infrastructure projects in Asia or in Africa enable local countries to reduce their potential dollar exposure and instead have either equity or other exposures to China. According to Paul, this is already having effects in terms of U.S. policy and the U.S. economy. 

Putting the bond issuance in perspective, Paul says: 

I think China has indicated that it plans to issue about $300 billion of sovereign bonds during 2024. So, you know, you can see $2 billion (of US dollar-denominated) out of almost $300. It's, you know, it's a relatively small proportion. 

He suggests it’s a warning shot across the bow. 

That's a very clear signal about how the potential power that China holds going forward if the U.S. government gets too stupid about things like tariffs or other anti-Chinese policies or even geo-politically. I mean, it might not be appreciated by listeners outside Asia, but American involvement in Taiwanese politics is a real sore point to the Chinese Government. And so I think this is a warning shot on a lot of different points. 

 Paul Gambles is the Co-Founder of MBMG GROUP and a Director and Chief Investment Officer of MBMG Investment Advisory, a SEC regulated investment advisor. Find Paul’s articles on https://mbmg.substack.com/ 

 @PaulGambles2 on Twitter

Rohan Grey, who taught us to understand money as a creature of law, is back for his tenth appearance on Macro N Cheese. 

Steve and Rohan dissect the humor and horror of the political landscape. They make a realistic assessment of the Biden administration and look at figures like Elon Musk and Ramaswamy as part of a new wave of governance setting out to undermine the fabric of federal institutions.  

The conversation touches on the absurdity of contemporary American politics, where a ‘meme president’ can emerge amidst a cacophony of discontent and confusion. All this against a background of imperialist atrocities and genocide.  

As always, Rohan warns against viewing political and economic developments through a simplistic lens and suggests a nuanced understanding of these realities within their historical context 

Rohan looks at the alternating and sometimes contradictory positions taken by conservatives and progressives on several issues. Judicial activism was once identified with the left – Thurgood Marshall, for example. Today judicial activism is synonymous with Samuel Alito. What has it meant to conservatives in the past to have an independent Fed? What does it mean today? In what ways do Trump’s interests align with Main Street instead of Wall Street? 

Part of the episode is devoted to cryptocurrency. Rohan explains why he refers to 2024 as the ‘crypto election’ and then talks about some of the fears and predictions about the Trump administration. 

Instead of comparing bitcoin to the US dollar, Rohan suggests we compare it to oil: 

We're not talking about holding Bitcoin. We're not talking about internalizing Bitcoin into the payments architecture of the United States government. We are talking about taking an interest in stabilizing the price of something that is otherwise functioning as a commodity. 

No Rohan Grey episode is complete without a couple of references to popular culture. Speaking of the broader issue of crytocurrency, he says it’s as if the digital dollar looked in the mirror and fell in love with itself. He compares it to a certain episode of Seinfeld. 

Rohan Grey is an assistant professor at Willamette University College of Law, where he teaches contracts, business associations, financial institutions, and a seminar on law, money and technology. 

Find his work and an expanded bio atrohangrey.net 

@rohangrey on Twitter 

In a stunning reversal, the Democrat Party has announced plans to reconnect with its New Deal roots in hopes of regaining the trust of the working class. Haha just kidding! This week, Yeva Nersisyan joins Steve to cut through the cacophony of phony punditry trying to explain the 2024 election results. Spoiler alert: it’s economics. It’s always economics. 

Yeva points to the stark realities of inflation, highlighting the persistent rise in food and housing costs. She points out that while inflation is often cited as a primary concern, the real issue lies in how US economic policies have consistently failed to address the needs of the people, especially those at the lower end of the income scale. Voters are not dazzled by Wall Street’s success. 

The conversation goes into the failures of past administrations and takes a look at mistakes made during and after the height of the Covid pandemic. Promising policies were on the table, yet the monies were often spent in ways least helpful to the majority. 

As an MMT economist, Yeva has worked on comprehensive economic proposals that demonstrate the affordability of providing a green new deal, healthcare, and a job guarantee.

The episode continually reinforces the necessity of a class perspective when looking at the failure of neoliberalism. 

Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA. She received her B.A. in economics from Yerevan State University in Armenia, and her M.A. and Ph.D. in economics and mathematics from the University of Missouri-Kansas City. She is a macroeconomist working in the Modern Money Theory, Post-Keynesian, and Institutionalist traditions. Her research interests include banking and financial instability, and fiscal and monetary theory and policy. She has published a number of papers on the topics of shadow banking, fiscal policy, government deficits and debt, and the Green New Deal. Nersisyan is currently coediting the Elgar Companion to Modern Money Theory with L. Randall Wray. 

Find her work at levyinstitute.org/publications/yeva-nersisyan 

"Colonized people have the right to resist."

Economist and friend of the podcast Fadhel Kaboub talks with Steve about the effects of global hegemony and the ongoing attempts to shift the balance of power. They look at BRICS, though it’s perhaps too soon to predict its ultimate outcome and influence.

Fadhel argues that a true multipolar world cannot emerge without placing the Global South at the center of economic decision-making, challenging the existing economic domination by the US and other nations. The history of colonial exploitation continues to affect the resource-rich region.

Fadhel also addresses the ways in which Israel is carrying out the US agenda in Gaza. He points out that the world’s reaction is being influenced by the ready availability of direct information via social media. 

"The world didn't start on October 7th. There was a world before that. And there is a colonial project that was being built in Gaza and Palestine. 

"Every colonial case we've seen in Africa and the rest of the Global South created resistance movements and resistance. Some people resist in the streets, some people resist with little pebbles and stones, some people resist with weapons. Some people resist with their voice, some people resist with their pen. But it's resistance. And it's a legitimate right to resist.  

"It's beginning to click for a lot of people that colonized people have the right to resist." 

Fadhel Kaboub is an associate professor of economics at Denison University (presently on leave) and the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He's the author of Global South Perspectives on Substack.

Find his work at kaboub.com and globalsouthperspectives.substack.com

@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

“A capitalist economy requires constant imperialist wars because it has to constantly suppress prices and wages and reorganize production in the global south around accumulation in the core. That is ultimately the system that we have to overcome.” 

Jason Hickel, who won our hearts a while back by accepting MMT, talks with Steve about the burning issue of our time. (No, not the US election, though they touch on the electoral system.) As much as Gaza is dominating social media, we must continue to stress its place in the capital order. Jason points us to Israel’s true role: sowing chaos and instability in the region.  

The conversation covers the historical and ongoing imperialistic strategies of the U.S. and its reactions to the mid-century liberation movements of the Global South, placing US support for Israel's actions as part of a broader capitalist agenda to maintain control over the world's resources and labor markets. Jason looks at China’s domestic successes and how they have led to the US virtually declaring war. He also touches on recent news about BRICS. 

Jason compares the history of the state of Israel to that of apartheid S. Africa. They used many of the same tactics and rationalizations. When it comes to the future for Israelis and Palestinians, S. Africa again provides a model: 

“What is the actual solution for this region? And I think we have to be clear. The alternative is democracy. The alternative to apartheid is democracy.  Democracy and equal rights for all people in the land of Palestine, from the river to the sea... 

“We have to start thinking about what this means... This is exactly what South Africa did after they abolished apartheid... They disestablished the apartheid state. They disestablished the apartheid institutions. They ensured equal rights and democracy for all within the territory.” 

Dr. Jason Hickel is an economic anthropologist, author, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts.  He is Professor at the Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, Visiting Senior Fellow at the International Inequalities Institute at the London School of Economics, and Chair Professor of Global Justice and the Environment at the University of Oslo.  Health. 

Jason's research focuses on global political economy, inequality, and ecological economics, which are the subjects of his two most recent books:The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions (Penguin, 2017), and Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World(Penguin, 2020), which was listed by the Financial Times and New Scientist as a book of the year. 

@jasonhickel on Twitter 

Author and labor studies professor Eric Blanc talks about worker-led union organizing and why it is superior to the dominant model of staff-intensive unionism.

“You just can't get the type of mass movement we need by relying on staff.   Even the best staff.” 

Eric lays out some features of worker-to-worker organizing: 

Workers are training other workers in the skills they need for a successful union drive. 

Workers are self-organizing before they affiliate with a union. As a result, the relationship between worker and union is more of a partnership; not a relationship of deference. 

Workers have decision-making power for the drive. They decide on strategy, tactics, even, perhaps, a political stance.

“One of the crucial turning points... that forced Starbucks to come to the bargaining table earlier this year, was the union came out for very strong stance around Palestine and solidarity with Gaza. 

“And it created this knockoff effect that ended up leading to a mass boycott that hurt Starbucks to the tune of 11 billion dollars.  And there's just no way that if workers hadn't been in the driving seat of this campaign, that they would have done such a risky thing very early on.” 

Political activists will take away a lot from this conversation.

Eric Blanc is director of the Worker-to-Worker Collaborative and co-founder of the Emergency Workplace Organizing Committee. He is professor of labor studies at Rutgers University. He is also author of the substack Labor Politics, and author of the forthcoming monograph, "We Are the Union: How Worker-to-Worker Organizing is Revitalizing Labor and Winning Big" (UC Press, 2025) 

**Milestone 300! We dedicate this, the 300th weekly episode, to our loyal listeners, and we wish to recognize the valiant work of our underpaid podcast crew – correction: ourunpaidpodcast crew – who have put in thousands of hours editing audio, correcting transcripts, writing show notes, creating artwork, and posting promos on social media. To have the next 300 episodes delivered to your inbox as soon as they’re released, subscribe at realprogressives.substack.com 

Project Censored has been a valuable resource for Macro N Cheese. This week, sociologist Andy Lee Roth talks with Steve about information gatekeeping by big tech through their use of AI algorithms to stifle diverse voices.  The discussion highlights historical and current instances of media censorship and looks at the monopolization of news distribution by corporate giants like Google, Facebook, and Twitter.  

In an economic system that is fully privatized, trustworthy journalism is another casualty. News, which should be treated as a public good, is anything but.  

Andy Lee Roth is associate director of Project Censored, a nonprofit that promotes independent journalism and critical media literacy education. He is the coauthor of The Media and Me (2022), the Project’s guide to critical media literacy for young people, and “Beyond Fact-Checking” (2024), a teaching guide about news frames and their power to shape our understanding of the world. Roth holds a PhD in sociology from the University of California, Los Angeles, and a BA in sociology and anthropology from Haverford College. His research and writing have been published in a variety of outlets, including Index on Censorship, In These Times, YES! Magazine, The Progressive, Truthout, Media Culture & Society, and the International Journal of Press/Politics. During 2024-2025 his current work on Algorithmic Literacy for Journalists is supported by a fellowship from the Reynolds Journalism Institute. 

projectcensored.org 

@ProjectCensored on Twitter 

**Our Substack brings every new episode of this podcast as well timely alerts about our book clubs and webinars and reminders for Tuesday night’s gatherings of Macro ‘n Chill. All this and more, straight to your inbox. Subscribe now: realprogressives.substack.com 

Recently, Steve appeared with host Sean St. Heart on Coup Save America, a weekly podcast committed to breaking through political rhetoric and focusing our attention on the core problems affecting our nation. The episode’s title was Exploring Modern Monetary Theory with Steve Grumbine,but of course it’s almost impossible to limit an MMT conversation to macroeconomics alone.

From the Coup Save America show notes: 

“’Are Progressives like 8-bit robots walking into walls when it comes to understanding economics?’ 

“Today we welcome special guest Steve Grumbine, founder and CEO of the nonprofits Real Progressives and Real Progress in Action. Steve is here to tell us how Modern Monetary Theory could benefit the working class American – and why it doesn’t. If you think a podcast on economics will be dry and dull, you’ve never heard Steve’s animated and passionate viewpoints on the subject. 

“Steve and Sean start the episode by reflecting upon the most recent presidential debate, then Steve launches right into the truth about our nation’s economy. While explaining the term “austerity” as it relates to macroeconomic models, Steve dispels the myth that if a government spends money on its people, it will cause inflation. We learn about the history of the Federal Reserve and how it works, what the federal deficit actually means, and what taxes really are and why they exist. Steve teaches us the difference between a ‘currency user’ and a ‘currency issuer,’ along with explaining how inflation works and why he hates using the term Modern Monetary Theory. 

“What would an idealistic economic system look like? It comes down to understanding class, power, and the average working man’s lack of agency. As progressives, we sabotage our own agenda by not understanding how economics work. Steve describes our movement’s ignorance as a ‘self-inflicted gunshot wound to the junk,’ and he tries to clear up some of the more common misunderstandings. He talks about the history of capitalism and how the system is now eating itself alive. When you pay interest rates, where does that money go? Is the middle class even a real thing? Steve attests that Modern Monetary Theory could contribute to fixing our society’s problems, but MMT can’t do it alone. How do we make our progressive goals actionable and not just theoretical? Why do progressives go to sleep whenever Democrats are in power rather than demanding real change? 

“Steve does a brilliant ‘Trumper’ impression as he explains how we need to create working class awareness. We (as progressives) need to accept that Medicare can’t work on a state-by-state level, and Steve calls out our dreams of a Universal Basic Income as being ‘batshit, bullshit crazy’ (although there is still hope in the idea of Universal Basic Services). So, how do we solve our economic problems? Listen to learn about ‘outside the nine dots,’ ‘creating dual power,’ and how ‘education and awakening are two different things.’ 

“Other topics include: Giving Biden credit for the CHIPS Act, price gauging during the pandemic, ‘Dude, Where’s My Car,’ and the economic theories of Clara E. Mattei and Jason Hickel.”  

Coup Save America is a weekly talk show hosted by Sean St. Heart that plants the mental seeds of social change by inciting a politically progressive coup of knowledgeable citizens to challenge the status quo.  

coupsaveamerica.com 

@coupsaveamerica on Twitter