No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

This is Part 1 of our unabridged interview with Iain McGilchrist. Modernity has helped us to use the world. We have reduced it to resources to extract, data to process, problems to solve. While it has made us powerful, it has also left the world feeling flat, and left us feeling eerily like machines ourselves. Dr. Iain McGilchrist says this reduction is a habit of attention, and it has everything to do with the two hemispheres of the brain. One half grasps, isolates, and uses. The other holds things together, sees the whole, and senses what is alive. He argues that we've been handing the world over to the grasping side of the brain. A psychiatrist and neuroscientist who began as a literary scholar and once considered entering a monastery, Iain has spent 35 years studying how these two ways of attending shape the world we experience. The good news is that our attention can change. From his eighteenth-century home on the Isle of Skye, he invites us to see the world anew. As something living, met in an encounter that leaves neither side unchanged. This is part three of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series. This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Iain McGilchrist Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠SEEDS app⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Part 2 of our unabridged interview with Iain McGilchrist. Modernity has helped us to use the world. We have reduced it to resources to extract, data to process, problems to solve. While it has made us powerful, it has also left the world feeling flat, and left us feeling eerily like machines ourselves. Dr. Iain McGilchrist says this reduction is a habit of attention, and it has everything to do with the two hemispheres of the brain. One half grasps, isolates, and uses. The other holds things together, sees the whole, and senses what is alive. He argues that we've been handing the world over to the grasping side of the brain. A psychiatrist and neuroscientist who began as a literary scholar and once considered entering a monastery, Iain has spent 35 years studying how these two ways of attending shape the world we experience. The good news is that our attention can change. From his eighteenth-century home on the Isle of Skye, he invites us to see the world anew. As something living, met in an encounter that leaves neither side unchanged. This is part three of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series. This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Iain McGilchrist Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable ⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠⁠SEEDS app⁠⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's the day we've all (mostly Savannah's) been waiting for. This week, Lee and Savannah do a deep dive into Brandon Flowers’ THRASHER! It's a record about belonging and nostalgia, and it was recorded live in Nashville by some of the greats. It's unexpectedly profound, and, in the end, Savannah just wants you to love this record as much as she does. Things we mentioned in this episode: Brandon Flowers' THRASHER Jackson Browne's The Pretender Sinners movie Dir. Ryan Coogler Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Modernity has helped us to use the world. We have reduced it to resources to extract, data to process, problems to solve. While it has made us powerful, it has also left the world feeling flat, and left us feeling eerily like machines ourselves. Dr. Iain McGilchrist says this reduction is a habit of attention, and it has everything to do with the two hemispheres of the brain. One half grasps, isolates, and uses. The other holds things together, sees the whole, and senses what is alive. He argues that we've been handing the world over to the grasping side of the brain. A psychiatrist and neuroscientist who began as a literary scholar and once considered entering a monastery, Iain has spent 35 years studying how these two ways of attending shape the world we experience. The good news is that our attention can change. From his eighteenth-century home on the Isle of Skye, he invites us to see the world anew. As something living, met in an encounter that leaves neither side unchanged. This is part three of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series. This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Iain McGilchrist Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable ⁠Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠⁠SEEDS app⁠⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Alister McGrath. Science can explain the world in an incredibly helpful way, but scientific facts alone can't tell us what our lives are for. In a world shaped by modernity, it can be wildly tempting to chuck religion altogether. But with science alone, we end up in what Max Weber called the iron cage: a world fully explained, but emptied of meaning. Dr. Alister McGrath grew up in Belfast during the Troubles, amidst conflict across political and religious lines. He became an aggressive Marxist atheist, convinced that religion caused violence and science had made it obsolete. Then, as a chemistry student at Oxford, he met brilliant scientists who believed in God. He then wrestled with the fact that he couldn't prove there wasn't a God. He now holds three Oxford doctorates, in molecular biophysics, theology, and intellectual history, and is Emeritus Professor of Science and Religion at Oxford. For McGrath, faith became a reason to value science even more. This is part two of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series. This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Alister McGrath Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠SEEDS app⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Meryl Streep is the voice of Aslan in Greta Gerwig's Narnia adaptation. Is this a threat to Christian orthodoxy or another culture-war distraction? This week on The Subtext, Savannah and Lee discuss the casting controversy and dive into bigger questions about gender and how we imagine God. From C.S. Lewis' POV to feminine depictions of God in Scripture and church history, they explore what Christian humility, artistic freedom, and a more faithful public witness might look like. Things we mentioned in this episode: NARNIA: THE MAGICIAN’S NEPHEW | Official Trailer Hillbilly Thomists on No Small Endeavor Stephen Wilson Jr. - "billy" “Why You Should Care That Aslan is a Woman” by Liel Leibovitz Priestesses in the Church? by C.S. Lewis The Incomprehensibility of God and the Image of God Male and Female by Elizabeth A. Johnson William Paul Young on No Small Endeavor The Shack by William Paul Young Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller The Crucifixion of the Warrior God by Gregory A. Boyd Cross Vision: How the Crucifixion of Jesus Makes Sense of Old Testament Violence by Gregory A. Boyd Where's Mommy - Gregory Boyd Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Science can explain the world in an incredibly helpful way, but scientific facts alone can't tell us what our lives are for. In a world shaped by modernity, it can be wildly tempting to chuck religion altogether. But with science alone, we end up in what Max Weber called the iron cage: a world fully explained, but emptied of meaning. Dr. Alister McGrath grew up in Belfast during the Troubles, amidst conflict across political and religious lines. He became an aggressive Marxist atheist, convinced that religion caused violence and science had made it obsolete. Then, as a chemistry student at Oxford, he met brilliant scientists who believed in God. He then wrestled with the fact that he couldn't prove there wasn't a God. He now holds three Oxford doctorates, in molecular biophysics, theology, and intellectual history, and is Emeritus Professor of Science and Religion at Oxford. For McGrath, faith became a reason to value science even more. This is part two of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series. This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Alister McGrath⁠ Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠⁠SEEDS app⁠⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Belle Tindall-Riley. Institutional religion is off the menu for many these days. But walk to the edge of the Glastonbury music festival, and you'll find a packed field people waiting an hour in line to buy crystals, get tarot readings, and have a sound bath from a healer with singing bowls. Our religious impulses didn’t go away. They just got transferred. It seems, consumerism and individualism are so deeply ingrained that we now pay for membership in whatever community we subscribe to. We buy their trinkets, their supplements, and their merch as symbols of our belonging. Dr. Belle Tindall-Riley takes the ache underneath all of that seriously. A biblical scholar who spent four years of her doctorate on a single passage, and who grew up in rural Wales lying to her classmates about going to church, she reads each practice like manifesting, tarot, crystals, WitchTok for the true longing beneath it. She examines the limits of a spirituality that always tells you you're doing just fine. You'll come away asking questions of your own spirituality: does it ever tell me no? This is part one of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series, recorded around the world from Oxford to the Isle of Skye, about the human ache that secularism can't explain and the new spiritualities that may not be able to fill it. Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Belle Tindall-Riley⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠SEEDS app⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is a $4,500 networking trip to Mar-a-Lago okay if it's for the kingdom? This week on The Subtext, Lee and Savannah unpack problematic Christian wealth seminars promising financial success for “kingdom impact." They explore the power of proximity, the dangers of “kingdom washing,” and what the early church might have to say about business, debt, and the pursuit of influence. Is Christian language transforming business, or simply baptizing capitalism? Things we mentioned in this episode: Come see Ira Glass on No Small Endeavor Live at the Symphony! Friendly Atheist “Christian evangelist defends $4,500 networking trip—and his “need” for luxury hotels” Jesus and the Disinherited by Howard Thurman The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James H. Cone The Gospel of High Yields: Inside Tim Tebow’s Favorite Wealth Seminar Poverty by America by Matthew Desmond Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Institutional religion is off the menu for many these days. But walk to the edge of the Glastonbury music festival, and you'll find a packed field people waiting an hour in line to buy crystals, get tarot readings, and have a sound bath from a healer with singing bowls. Our religious impulses didn’t go away. They just got transferred. It seems, consumerism and individualism are so deeply ingrained that we now pay for membership in whatever community we subscribe to. We buy their trinkets, their supplements, and their merch as symbols of our belonging. Dr. Belle Tindall-Riley takes the ache underneath all of that seriously. A biblical scholar who spent four years of her doctorate on a single passage, and who grew up in rural Wales lying to her classmates about going to church, she reads each practice like manifesting, tarot, crystals, WitchTok for the true longing beneath it. She examines the limits of a spirituality that always tells you you're doing just fine. You'll come away asking questions of your own spirituality: does it ever tell me no? This is part one of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series, recorded around the world from Oxford to the Isle of Skye, about the human ache that secularism can't explain and the new spiritualities that may not be able to fill it. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Belle Tindall-Riley Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Kristin Kobes Du Mez. That "Live, Laugh, Love" sign at Target isn't just decor. It's a theological statement, and it has a 150-year history most of us have never heard. Historian Kristin Kobes Du Mez, author of the New York Times bestseller Jesus and John Wayne, argues that American Christian women have been formed more by the gift aisle than by the seminary. In her new book, Live, Laugh, Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made, she traces a 19th-century promise, that submission and a positive attitude will be rewarded with blessing, as it merges with the secular philosophy of positive thinking and spreads through Christian romance novels, radio, home decor, and multi-level marketing. Lee and Kristin explore why doubt came to be treated as sin, and how a theology championed by a suffragist ended up demanding women's submission to men. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Kristin Kobes Du Mez Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week on The Subtext: Macklemore, Ed Sheeran, free speech, and the billionaire power behind the music business. Lee and Savannah unpack the controversy, looking to Dolly Parton as a guide. What happens when public outrage becomes a purity test? Is it all just “vanity politics,” or what are we actually doing about the things we say we care about? Things we mentioned in this episode: M*A*S*H* All in the Family Olivia Fox Cabane (on the science of charisma) on Armchair Expert The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox Cabane Christ in the Rubble by Munther Isaac Munther Isaac on No Small Endeavor Dr. Queenie Johnson’s Analysis on what she calls “Vanity Politics” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

That "Live, Laugh, Love" sign at Target isn't just decor. It's a theological statement, and it has a 150-year history most of us have never heard. Historian Kristin Kobes Du Mez, author of the New York Times bestseller ⁠Jesus and John Wayne⁠, argues that American Christian women have been formed more by the gift aisle than by the seminary. In her new book, ⁠Live, Laugh, Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made⁠, she traces a 19th-century promise, that submission and a positive attitude will be rewarded with blessing, as it merges with the secular philosophy of positive thinking and spreads through Christian romance novels, radio, home decor, and multi-level marketing. Lee and Kristin explore why doubt came to be treated as sin, and how a theology championed by a suffragist ended up demanding women's submission to men. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Kristin Kobes Du Mez⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠SEEDS app⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Annie F. Downs. What's holding you back from your dreams? Annie F. Downs wants to help you diagnose and respond to that question. She says often what’s holding you back is rooted in something that was either stolen, killed, or destroyed.  In this conversation, the New York Times bestselling author and Lee talk about her new book, Don't Let That Hold You Back. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie F. Downs Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It’s the first birthday of The Subtext! Savannah and Lee celebrate with an “Ask Us Everything” episode, answering listener questions about Bible translations, music, patriotism, how to leave your church community, and more. Thank you to everyone who made year one of The Subtext special. We love you! Send your AMA questions anytime to us @thesubtextshow on Instagram or to info@nosmallendeavor.com Things we mentioned in this episode: Join us for No Small Endeavor Live November 22 - The Schermerhorn Symphony Center Méditation from the opera Thaïs by Jules Massenet Adagio for Strings by Samuel Barber Down There by the Train by Tom Waits Christmas Lights by Coldplay A Change is Going to Come by Sam Cooke Pilgrim by Steve Earle Little Girl Blue by Nina Simone Kim Stanley Robinson on No Small Endeavor Consumerist corner: Stanley cup, Apple AirTag, Exfoliating Lip Balm Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's holding you back from your dreams? Annie F. Downs wants to help you diagnose and respond to that question. She says often what’s holding you back is rooted in something that was either stolen, killed, or destroyed.  In this conversation, the New York Times bestselling author and Lee talk about her new book, ⁠Don't Let That Hold You Back⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie F. Downs⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠SEEDS app⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Marisa Franco. Attachment theory is trendy right now, and the goal is often the coveted title of "securely attached." If you’re that, then you're always calm, never spiraling, never needing anyone to hold your feelings for you. Psychologist Marisa Franco built her career studying attachment, but when she started to look at the parts of her that weren’t so secure, she began to “approach these parts of myself that I struggle with as these parts are perfect, too.” Franco is a psychologist and assistant clinical professor at the University of Maryland and the author of the New York Times bestseller Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. Her new book, Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment, argues that real security starts on the inside, in how you treat your own feelings, not in how well you manage everyone else's. Key Ideas Reassurance Can Backfire — Telling someone they're wonderful can leave them feeling more alone, not less, because it collides with what they already believe about themselves. Confront Your Own Feelings Before You Hand Them to Someone Else — The healthiest response to hurt starts with naming it privately, not making another person immediately responsible for it. Worth and Behavior Aren't the Same Measurement — You can do something genuinely unhealthy and still hold full value as a person; collapsing the two makes change harder, not easier. Shame Rarely Produces Lasting Change — People who change out of shame usually just trade one form of self-punishment for another, since the underlying pain never got addressed. Memories Are Predictions, Not Fixed Records — Revisiting a painful memory and offering yourself the care you needed at the time can change how that memory is stored and how much power it still holds. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Marisa Franco Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Turns out, Gen Z is talking less, scrolling more, and forgetting how to be human. This week, Savannah and Lee unpack the surprising decline in everyday conversation and why talking to strangers actually matters. Then a listener’s question prompts them to revisit Nate Bargatze drama. Does calling in vs. calling out work with public figures?  And things get spicy when they dive into Meta’s $17 billion child-safety settlement, social media addiction, kids and algorithms, free speech, government regulation, and the complicated question of who gets to shape us online.  Tell us what you think! DM us on Instagram @thesubtextshow Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠Gen Zs like me are speaking 451 words fewer every day – and I know why by Esme Gordon Craig⁠ ⁠Heather Holleman on No Small Endeavor⁠ ⁠Jemar Tisby on No Small Endeavor⁠ ⁠James Lawson on No Small Endeavor⁠ ⁠Free Speech Part 1 - The Subtext⁠ ⁠Free Speech Part 2 - The Subtext⁠ ⁠The Social Reckoning Trailer⁠ ⁠The Social Network⁠ Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Attachment theory is trendy right now, and the goal is often the coveted title of "securely attached." If you’re that, then you're always calm, never spiraling, never needing anyone to hold your feelings for you. Psychologist Marisa Franco built her career studying attachment, but when she started to look at the parts of her that weren’t so secure, she began to “approach these parts of myself that I struggle with as these parts are perfect, too.” Franco is a psychologist and assistant clinical professor at the University of Maryland and the author of the New York Times bestseller ⁠Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends⁠. Her new book, ⁠Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment⁠, argues that real security starts on the inside, in how you treat your own feelings, not in how well you manage everyone else's. Key Ideas Reassurance Can Backfire — Telling someone they're wonderful can leave them feeling more alone, not less, because it collides with what they already believe about themselves. Confront Your Own Feelings Before You Hand Them to Someone Else — The healthiest response to hurt starts with naming it privately, not making another person immediately responsible for it. Worth and Behavior Aren't the Same Measurement — You can do something genuinely unhealthy and still hold full value as a person; collapsing the two makes change harder, not easier. Shame Rarely Produces Lasting Change — People who change out of shame usually just trade one form of self-punishment for another, since the underlying pain never got addressed. Memories Are Predictions, Not Fixed Records — Revisiting a painful memory and offering yourself the care you needed at the time can change how that memory is stored and how much power it still holds. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Marisa Franco⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠SEEDS app⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Steve Cuss. Anxiety is contagious, and most of us catch it without noticing: from a tense meeting, a hard conversation, a parent, a group chat. After an emergency, an ER doctor pulled a young hospital chaplain aside and gave him some life-changing advice: anytime somebody's heart stops, first take your own pulse. He learned that, in order to help, he needs to first notice what’s going on inside of him. Steve Cuss is a pastor, leadership coach, and author of Managing Leadership Anxiety and The Expectation Gap. He spent a crucible year as a chaplain in a level one trauma center, attending more than 250 deaths, and has spent the decades since teaching leaders and families how anxiety is contagious and can be passed between people. In this conversation, rooted in systems theory, he gives you the practical version: how to tell when reactivity has hold of you, the five false needs that drive all humans, how to see anxiety in a room instead of catching it, and how to sort what is actually yours to carry from what is not. If you want to be the steady person for the people you love without going numb or over-functioning, this is the toolkit. KEY IDEAS Anxiety Is Contagious, and You Can See It Instead of Catching It Reactivity moves between people through proximity and repetition, and simply walking into the room intending to notice the pattern is often enough to keep you from picking it up. The Urge to Comfort Is Usually About Your Own Discomfort When someone says the foolish thing to a grieving friend, it is rarely callousness. It is a caregiver trying to make their own anxiety stop. The Five False Needs of Every Human Control, perfection, knowing the answer, being their for others when they’re hurting, approval Calm Is Not the Goal, and Sometimes It Is an Insult When the harm is systemic, outrage is the accurate response, and serenity in front of it signals that you have not understood what is happening. The Most Anxious Person in the Room Sets the Terms Whether they dominate the conversation or go silent, their reactivity quietly decides what everyone else is willing to say. Most of What Exhausts You Was Never Yours to Carry Sorting what is mine, what is theirs, and what belongs to God is less about detachment than about being free to love someone without needing to fix them. Self-Care Is a Means, Not an End Rest, retreat, and therapy exist to send you back into difficult work better able to do it, not to insulate you from it. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Steve Cuss Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Six 'English' strangers try to go Amish for a month, surfacing big questions about autonomy, conformity, vanity, and discernment. This week we're talking about TLC's Suddenly Amish, a (very scripted) reality show where six outsiders spend a month living in an Amish community to see if they could actually join the church. Lee and Savannah use Suddenly Amish as a foundation for conversations around appearance and vanity, the "if it doesn't affect you, why does it matter" ethic of modern individualism, what Christian teaching has to say about all this, and whether any real community can exist without asking you to give up a little bit of yourself. Things we mentioned in this episode: A Beginner's Guide to Dying by Simon Boas Suddenly Amish on HBO Max Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Anxiety is contagious, and most of us catch it without noticing: from a tense meeting, a hard conversation, a parent, a group chat. After an emergency, an ER doctor pulled a young hospital chaplain aside and gave him some life-changing advice: anytime somebody's heart stops, first take your own pulse. He learned that, in order to help, he needs to first notice what’s going on inside of him. Steve Cuss is a pastor, leadership coach, and author of⁠ Managing Leadership Anxiety⁠ and⁠ The Expectation Gap⁠. He spent a crucible year as a chaplain in a level one trauma center, attending more than 250 deaths, and has spent the decades since teaching leaders and families how anxiety is contagious and can be passed between people. In this conversation, rooted in systems theory, he gives you the practical version: how to tell when reactivity has hold of you, the five false needs that drive all humans, how to see anxiety in a room instead of catching it, and how to sort what is actually yours to carry from what is not. If you want to be the steady person for the people you love without going numb or over-functioning, this is the toolkit. KEY IDEAS Anxiety Is Contagious, and You Can See It Instead of Catching It Reactivity moves between people through proximity and repetition, and simply walking into the room intending to notice the pattern is often enough to keep you from picking it up. The Urge to Comfort Is Usually About Your Own Discomfort When someone says the foolish thing to a grieving friend, it is rarely callousness. It is a caregiver trying to make their own anxiety stop. The Five False Needs of Every Human Control, perfection, knowing the answer, being their for others when they’re hurting, approval Calm Is Not the Goal, and Sometimes It Is an Insult When the harm is systemic, outrage is the accurate response, and serenity in front of it signals that you have not understood what is happening. The Most Anxious Person in the Room Sets the Terms Whether they dominate the conversation or go silent, their reactivity quietly decides what everyone else is willing to say. Most of What Exhausts You Was Never Yours to Carry Sorting what is mine, what is theirs, and what belongs to God is less about detachment than about being free to love someone without needing to fix them. Self-Care Is a Means, Not an End Rest, retreat, and therapy exist to send you back into difficult work better able to do it, not to insulate you from it. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Steve Cuss⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Michele Norris. As we practice the good life with a bit of rest, we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Cariad’s summer staff pick — Michele Norris: Race, Your Story, 6 Words, Please Send “I wanted to create a vehicle that allowed people to talk about this allegedly toxic topic on their own terms.” - Michele Norris.  Could you describe your experience of race in America in just 6 words? That’s the very thing Journalist Michele Norris asked 200 strangers to do back in 2015, when she printed a stack of postcards with these simple directions: Race, your story, 6 words, please send. What began as an exercise to spark conversation became The Race Card Project, a growing online archive comprising over 750,000 answers from Americans of every ethnicity and corner of the country. The responses are at once tender and confronting, and they hold a mirror up to a part of American life that is often felt, but rarely openly discussed. This week on No Small Endeavor, Michele tells the story of the Race Card Project and her latest book Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity. We’ll also cover her memoir The Grace of Silence, and the inspiration behind her podcast Your Mamma’s Kitchen. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Michele Norris⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Lee and Savannah talk about the ways Lindsay Clancy’s trial is sparking conversations around mental health, justice, and culpability.  This week, we tackle a story listeners have been asking us to cover: the case of Lindsay Clancy, a Massachusetts mother who killed her three children in 2023 after months of worsening psychiatric symptoms and a cocktail of nine prescribed medications. We dig into postpartum psychosis and postpartum depression, why true-crime audiences reach for alternate-perpetrator theories even when a defendant has admitted to the act, and how mental health plays a role in seeking justice amidst tragedy. **This episode was recorded on August 31st, 2026 prior to the declaration of the mistrial** Things we mentioned in this episode: Brandon Flowers album THRASHER Join us for a No Small Endeavor live show:  September 26 - The Fisher Center at Belmont University November 22 - The Schermerhorn Symphony Center (Pre-sale available for Patreon members)  Missing Me by Ayana Lage Royal College of Psychiatrists: Postpartum psychosis Wicked: For Good - The Subtext I Study Women Who Kill Their Children. Lindsay Clancy Deserves Mercy. NYT Opinion by Michelle Oberman Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As we practice the good life with a bit of rest, we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Cariad’s summer staff pick — Michele Norris: Race, Your Story, 6 Words, Please Send “I wanted to create a vehicle that allowed people to talk about this allegedly toxic topic on their own terms.” - Michele Norris.  Could you describe your experience of race in America in just 6 words? That’s the very thing Journalist Michele Norris asked 200 strangers to do back in 2015, when she printed a stack of postcards with these simple directions: Race, your story, 6 words, please send. What began as an exercise to spark conversation became The Race Card Project, a growing online archive comprising over 750,000 answers from Americans of every ethnicity and corner of the country. The responses are at once tender and confronting, and they hold a mirror up to a part of American life that is often felt, but rarely openly discussed. This week on No Small Endeavor, Michele tells the story of the Race Card Project and her latest book Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity. We’ll also cover her memoir The Grace of Silence, and the inspiration behind her podcast Your Mamma’s Kitchen. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Michele Norris Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Kristin Neff. As we practice the good life with a bit of rest, we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Jakob’s summer staff pick — Kristin Neff: The Power of Self Compassion Is high self-esteem crucial to human flourishing or rather a hindrance? “The biggest problem with self-esteem is that it tends to be contingent,” says Kristin Neff. “We only feel good about ourselves when we succeed.” Far too often, high self-esteem breeds narcissism, bullying, and prejudice. Kristin is a professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. She’s also a prominent expert on the topic of self-compassion, which her research has found to be much more effective than self-esteem in helping people flourish. In this episode, she shares what makes self-compassion different from self-esteem, how to cultivate it, and how it can help us to flourish amidst stress, suffering, and everyday life. We also hear briefly from psychiatrist and author Curt Thompson illuminating the negative neurobiological effects of shame while Kristen explains how self compassion can remedy these effects. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Kristin Neff⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, we look at AI purity tests and mass surveillance, then circle back to an ongoing conversation: should social media commentary on people's bodies be off-limits? We're digging into the Hank Green AI backlash and how AI use has become a sort of cultural purity test that nobody can actually pass. Then we break down Flock’s license-plate cameras and whether safety and privacy can coexist at scale. Last, we revisit our Ariana Grande body conversation to sit with the pushback we got, and clarify our thoughts from an earlier episode. Things we mentioned in this episode: The Bombing of Pan Am 103 on Netflix Theo of Golden by Allen Levi The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell Kim Stanley Robinson on No Small Endeavor Arrival movie Scandalous Witness by Lee C. Camp Who is My Enemy? by Lee C. Camp Person of Interest tv show Dopamine Nation by Anna Lembke Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As we practice the good life with a bit of rest, we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Jakob’s summer staff pick — Kristin Neff: The Power of Self Compassion Is high self-esteem crucial to human flourishing or rather a hindrance? “The biggest problem with self-esteem is that it tends to be contingent,” says Kristin Neff. “We only feel good about ourselves when we succeed.” Far too often, high self-esteem breeds narcissism, bullying, and prejudice. Kristin is a professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. She’s also a prominent expert on the topic of self-compassion, which her research has found to be much more effective than self-esteem in helping people flourish. In this episode, she shares what makes self-compassion different from self-esteem, how to cultivate it, and how it can help us to flourish amidst stress, suffering, and everyday life. We also hear briefly from psychiatrist and author Curt Thompson illuminating the negative neurobiological effects of shame while Kristen explains how self compassion can remedy these effects. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Kristin Neff Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Oliver Burkeman. As we practice the good life with a bit of rest, we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Lee’s co-host on The Subtext Savannah’s summer staff pick — Oliver Burkeman. In an age full of lifehacks, self-help books, and productivity gurus, many of us only end up busier and more stressed than we were before. What if there’s a better way to live a full, fruitful life? "The world is bursting with wonder,” says Oliver Burkeman, “and yet it's the rare productivity guru who seems to have considered the possibility that the ultimate point of all our frenetic doing might be to experience more of that wonder." In this episode, he discusses his New York Times Bestselling book Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals, dispelling many contemporary ideas about productivity, and instead suggesting a wonder-fueled, counterintuitive method for flourishing in the world. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Oliver Burkeman⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lee and Savannah discuss Christopher Nolan's Odyssey – both the social media storms that started before it hit theaters, and lessons inside the film itself. Christopher Nolan's Odyssey is a blockbuster hit, and has caused a few waves in culture. Elon Musk wants his own "historically accurate" AI version, translator Emily Wilson says the film loses the "wily" Odysseus that exists in the original, and a Christian review site suggests it is blasphemous. Savannah and Lee dig into what these reactions reveal, then talk about the film itself. Things we mentioned in this episode: The Iliad by Homer The Odyssey by Homer, translated by Emily Wilson Malcolm Guite on No Small Endeavor Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As we practice the good life with a bit of rest, we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Lee’s co-host on The Subtext Savannah’s summer staff pick — Oliver Burkeman. In an age full of lifehacks, self-help books, and productivity gurus, many of us only end up busier and more stressed than we were before. What if there’s a better way to live a full, fruitful life? "The world is bursting with wonder,” says Oliver Burkeman, “and yet it's the rare productivity guru who seems to have considered the possibility that the ultimate point of all our frenetic doing might be to experience more of that wonder." In this episode, he discusses his New York Times Bestselling book Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals, dispelling many contemporary ideas about productivity, and instead suggesting a wonder-fueled, counterintuitive method for flourishing in the world. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Oliver Burkeman Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with the Hillbilly Thomists. As we practice the good life with a bit of rest we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Lee’s summer staff pick—The Hillbilly Thomistis: Bourbon, Bluegrass, and The Bible. There aren’t many Billboard-charting bluegrass bands made up entirely of Catholic Dominican Friars, who play their shows clad in white tunics and rosaries. In fact, there is precisely one such band: the Hillbilly Thomists. “A Thomist is someone who follows the thought and theological teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas,” they explain. “We combine it with a little bit of humor about our human condition.” In this episode, they talk about their theology and vocation, as well as how they manage life on the road as priests who have taken a vow of poverty. Plus, they give live performances of some of their finest songs. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with the Hillbilly Thomists⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does our fascination with true crime say about us? This week, Lee and Savannah tackle listener questions. First up, they talk about the upcoming JonBenét Ramsey Netflix series, the line between justice and entertainment, and whether stories about evil can actually shape us for good.  Speaking of shaping us, how does city planning around data centers form our community and character? What about Israel's conquest narratives in the Old Testament and what they mean for modern conversations about colonialism? Pack your swimtrunks, folks, because we're diving beneath the headlines in this episode! Things we mentioned in this episode: The Calamity Club by Kathryn Stockett The Help by Kathryn Stockett Doris Day: Her Own Story by Doris Day Holler: A Poet Among Patriots by Danielle Chapman Danielle Chapman on No Small Endeavor Shipwrecked Nightmare at Sea on Netflix Why Women Find Watching True Crime Comforting by Jessica Grose for the NY Times The Problem of War in the Old Testament by Peter C. Craigie Is Social Media a Calling? The Subtext Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As we practice the good life with a bit of rest we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Lee’s summer staff pick—The Hillbilly Thomistis: Bourbon, Bluegrass, and The Bible. There aren’t many Billboard-charting bluegrass bands made up entirely of Catholic Dominican Friars, who play their shows clad in white tunics and rosaries. In fact, there is precisely one such band: the Hillbilly Thomists. “A Thomist is someone who follows the thought and theological teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas,” they explain. “We combine it with a little bit of humor about our human condition.” In this episode, they talk about their theology and vocation, as well as how they manage life on the road as priests who have taken a vow of poverty. Plus, they give live performances of some of their finest songs. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with the Hillbilly Thomists⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Danielle Chapman. There is a fear that keeps most of us from looking too hard at where we come from: that we will turn over the wrong rock and find something we cannot carry. In the South, a holler is the tangled place on the riverbank you are told not to go. It is also a primal yell, and, as it happens, the sound Marines make.  Danielle Chapman is a poet, a lecturer at Yale, and the author of the memoir Holler: A Poet Among Patriots. She was raised largely by her grandfather, a four-star general and former Commandant of the Marine Corps, after her father drowned off the coast of Okinawa when she was three. She spent twelve years turning what began as a political critique of her past into something considerably more uncomfortable—a true telling that treats all involved as complex human beings. Key Ideas A Single Story Is Too Reductive The moment you decide someone's worst act is the whole truth about them, you've stopped being able to see anything else that's true. Be Curious Before You Judge Asking one more question is harder and more honest than settling for a verdict. Understanding Isn't the Same as Excusing Making sense of why someone did wrong doesn't require letting them off the hook for it. Facts Complicate Ideology The more you actually learn about a person or a history, the harder it gets to hold a tidy, one-sided verdict on either. Silence Is Inherited Too What a family doesn't say about its grief and its guilt gets passed down as surely as what it does say. Darkness Doesn't Get the Last Word Grace and atrocity can occupy the same family history without one canceling out the other. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Danielle Chapman Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can I just say something? No, really! What are the boundaries of free speech these days? The conversation continues between Lee, Savannah, and Jacob Mchangama, Founder and Executive Director of The Future of Free Speech. Whether you're a free speech absolutist, a skeptic, or somewhere in between, this episode will challenge your assumptions about the topic. Stay tuned for Lee and Savannah's debrief at the end of the episode!  And remember, if you want to keep engaging with the conversation in person, you're invited to The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit, Oct. 2-3, 2026.  Things we mentioned in this episode: The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026 Follow Jacob! Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/jmchangama) | X (https://x.com/JMchangama) | Instagram (https://instagram.com/JMchangama) Follow The Future of Free Speech! Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/futurefreespeech) | X (https://twitter.com/SpeechFuture) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/futurefreespeech/) Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There is a fear that keeps most of us from looking too hard at where we come from: that we will turn over the wrong rock and find something we cannot carry. In the South, a holler is the tangled place on the riverbank you are told not to go. It is also a primal yell, and, as it happens, the sound Marines make.  Danielle Chapman is a poet, a lecturer at Yale, and the author of the memoir ⁠Holler: A Poet Among Patriots⁠. She was raised largely by her grandfather, a four-star general and former Commandant of the Marine Corps, after her father drowned off the coast of Okinawa when she was three. She spent twelve years turning what began as a political critique of her past into something considerably more uncomfortable—a true telling that treats all involved as complex human beings. Key Ideas A Single Story Is Too Reductive The moment you decide someone's worst act is the whole truth about them, you've stopped being able to see anything else that's true. Be Curious Before You Judge Asking one more question is harder and more honest than settling for a verdict. Understanding Isn't the Same as Excusing Making sense of why someone did wrong doesn't require letting them off the hook for it. Facts Complicate Ideology The more you actually learn about a person or a history, the harder it gets to hold a tidy, one-sided verdict on either. Silence Is Inherited Too What a family doesn't say about its grief and its guilt gets passed down as surely as what it does say. Darkness Doesn't Get the Last Word Grace and atrocity can occupy the same family history without one canceling out the other. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Danielle Chapman⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Annie Jacobsen. Wouldn't you rather not know how the world ends? Nine nations hold nuclear weapons, and every one of them is watched, counted, and deterred. A biological weapon needs no nation, no missile, and no submarine. The delivery system is a pair of lungs, and the barrier to entry is a working knowledge of biology and a computer. That asymmetry is why the journalist who wrote the definitive account of how the world ends in seventy-two minutes has spent the last two years on something that frightens her more. Annie Jacobsen is a Pulitzer Prize finalist and New York Times bestselling author who has spent more than fifteen years reporting on classified military and intelligence programs, reconstructing worst-case scenarios from the testimony of the people who built them. Her new book,⁠ Biological War: A Scenario⁠, follows⁠ Nuclear War: A Scenario⁠. She calls us to courage by reminding us that you cannot fix what you cannot face. Key Ideas Six Minutes to Decide What the nuclear chain of command actually looks like once a missile is airborne, and why the clock is the least of the problems. The Delivery System Is a Pair of Lungs Why a biological weapon needs no missile, no submarine, and almost no barrier to entry, and why that changes everything about who has to worry. What the Pandemic Actually Cost Us Jacobsen's argument that the most lasting damage of COVID was never counted in cases, and that we are still paying it. The Pope's Quiet Backchannel A story she learned at the Vatican about how the world once stepped back from the brink, and why almost no one was allowed to know. Old Men in Their Nineties What decades of interviewing soldiers near the end of their lives taught her about how a human being changes. Solution, Solution, Solution Her answer to the reader who finishes the book, decides the worst case is inevitable, and gives up. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie Jacobsen⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Most people who share misinformation already suspect it is false.  This is a short preview of Lee's conversation with philosopher Christian B. Miller, from Books You Should Know, our quarterly series on NSE+. His new book, The Honesty Crisis, skips the easy target of lying public figures to ask a harder question: what kind of people do we become when deception gets cheap, convenient, and almost impossible to catch? The full conversation is available now on NSE+, along with ad-free episodes, bonus content, and exclusive series.  Giveaway! Every NSE+ member is entered to win one of five copies of Christian's book, plus one of five signed copies of Lee's book Scandalous Witness. Every member is eligible, whether you joined three years ago or you join tonight. Entries close August 19th. JOIN NSE+ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nikki Minaj thanked Elon Musk for saving free speech, so naturally, Lee and Savannah had to phone a friend to learn more about what is going on. Jacob Mchangama, Founder and Executive Director of The Future of Free Speech sat down with The Subtext to discuss everything from social media and censorship to hate speech, political polarization, and the First Amendment. They examine the real costs of protecting speech we disagree with and why history suggests those costs may still be worth paying. Want to keep learning more? Well, you're in luck because Jacob's organization is hosting a summit in Nashville, TN this fall: The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026. Things we mentioned in this episode: Letters from a Stoic by Lucius Annaeus Seneca Europe Since Napoleon by David Thomson The Agency on Paramount+ Meditations by Marcus Aurelius Enchiridion by Gil Epictetus The Courage to be Disliked by Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga M*A*S*H* on Hulu The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026 Follow Jacob! Facebook | X | Instagram Follow The Future of Free Speech! Facebook | X | Instagram Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wouldn't you rather not know how the world ends? Nine nations hold nuclear weapons, and every one of them is watched, counted, and deterred. A biological weapon needs no nation, no missile, and no submarine. The delivery system is a pair of lungs, and the barrier to entry is a working knowledge of biology and a computer. That asymmetry is why the journalist who wrote the definitive account of how the world ends in seventy-two minutes has spent the last two years on something that frightens her more. Annie Jacobsen is a Pulitzer Prize finalist and New York Times bestselling author who has spent more than fifteen years reporting on classified military and intelligence programs, reconstructing worst-case scenarios from the testimony of the people who built them. Her new book, Biological War: A Scenario, follows Nuclear War: A Scenario. She calls us to courage by reminding us that you cannot fix what you cannot face. Key Ideas Six Minutes to Decide What the nuclear chain of command actually looks like once a missile is airborne, and why the clock is the least of the problems. The Delivery System Is a Pair of Lungs Why a biological weapon needs no missile, no submarine, and almost no barrier to entry, and why that changes everything about who has to worry. What the Pandemic Actually Cost Us Jacobsen's argument that the most lasting damage of COVID was never counted in cases, and that we are still paying it. The Pope's Quiet Backchannel A story she learned at the Vatican about how the world once stepped back from the brink, and why almost no one was allowed to know. Old Men in Their Nineties What decades of interviewing soldiers near the end of their lives taught her about how a human being changes. Solution, Solution, Solution Her answer to the reader who finishes the book, decides the worst case is inevitable, and gives up. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie Jacobsen Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Malcolm Guite. A frightened knight, cornered in a castle he doesn't understand, grabs a spear he was warned not to touch and drives it into the king. And because the king and the land are one, the whole country goes barren. The rivers empty, the crops fail, nothing can be born. It's called the Dolorous Stroke, and poet Malcolm Guite first heard it at eight years old from his mother. When he protested that the knight didn't know what he was doing, that no world could work this way, his mother answered him: “I'm telling you this story because you need to know that you live in just such a world.” But there's a second half. The same spear that wounded the king is the only thing that can heal him. Guite is a poet, Anglican priest, life fellow of Girton College, Cambridge, and the frontman of a rhythm-and-blues band. His latest work is Merlin's Isle: An Arthuriad, a four-volume epic retelling of the Arthurian legends in ballad form, beginning with Galahad and the Grail. He's convinced these old stories are older and wiser than we are, that they know something we've spent a few centuries forgetting.  Key Ideas The Dolorous Stroke One rash act, one seized spear, and a whole land laid waste. The medieval image Guite thinks describes exactly where we are now. The Spear That Wounds Also Heals The strange logic at the heart of the Grail story, and why the cure has to come through the very thing that caused the wound. You Live in Just Such a World What Guite's mother told an eight-year-old about a world that can be undone by one frightened person, in the shadow of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Boy Who Read the Poem At sixteen, homesick and depressed, Guite reads Keats and walks out certain something had happened that brain chemistry could never fully explain. The Immense Relief of Being a Creature What happens when you stop having to be the be-all and end-all of everything, and why that turns out to be freedom rather than loss. Vulnerable Means Woundable The Latin root that reframes depression, love, and the whole shape of a good life. Love doesn't tower over. It comes down on the level with you. The Wasteland We're In Now How a barren medieval kingdom became, for Guite, a picture of disenchantment, ecological ruin, and a culture that's lost the thread of its own story. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Malcolm Guite Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when a retired theology professor walks into a party full of deconstructing twenty-somethings? It sounds like the start of a joke. But really. How do we show up for ourselves and the people we love when doubt and deconstruction enter the chat? This week on The Subtext, Lee and Savannah discuss one of the more defining conversations of modern faith: deconstruction. Whether you're asking big questions yourself or walking alongside someone who is, this episode is an invitation to keep showing up with curiosity, compassion, and hope. Things we mentioned in this episode: Of Grammatology by Jacques Derrida Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light: The Private Writings of the Saint of Calcutta ⁠40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS:⁠⁠ ⁠Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A frightened knight, cornered in a castle he doesn't understand, grabs a spear he was warned not to touch and drives it into the king. And because the king and the land are one, the whole country goes barren. The rivers empty, the crops fail, nothing can be born. It's called the Dolorous Stroke, and poet Malcolm Guite first heard it at eight years old from his mother. When he protested that the knight didn't know what he was doing, that no world could work this way, his mother answered him: “I'm telling you this story because you need to know that you live in just such a world.” But there's a second half. The same spear that wounded the king is the only thing that can heal him. Guite is a poet, Anglican priest, life fellow of Girton College, Cambridge, and the frontman of a rhythm-and-blues band. His latest work is Merlin's Isle: An Arthuriad, a four-volume epic retelling of the Arthurian legends in ballad form, beginning with Galahad and the Grail. He's convinced these old stories are older and wiser than we are, that they know something we've spent a few centuries forgetting.  Key Ideas The Dolorous Stroke One rash act, one seized spear, and a whole land laid waste. The medieval image Guite thinks describes exactly where we are now. The Spear That Wounds Also Heals The strange logic at the heart of the Grail story, and why the cure has to come through the very thing that caused the wound. You Live in Just Such a World What Guite's mother told an eight-year-old about a world that can be undone by one frightened person, in the shadow of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Boy Who Read the Poem At sixteen, homesick and depressed, Guite reads Keats and walks out certain something had happened that brain chemistry could never fully explain. The Immense Relief of Being a Creature What happens when you stop having to be the be-all and end-all of everything, and why that turns out to be freedom rather than loss. Vulnerable Means Woundable The Latin root that reframes depression, love, and the whole shape of a good life. Love doesn't tower over. It comes down on the level with you. The Wasteland We're In Now How a barren medieval kingdom became, for Guite, a picture of disenchantment, ecological ruin, and a culture that's lost the thread of its own story. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Malcolm Guite⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview Astro Teller. In a world that is increasingly dominated by profit over people, it’s easy to be cynical about the future. But what if there was a different way forward? Could capitalism, technology, and human flourishing go hand in hand, and what would it take to get us there? In this episode, Lee Camp invites Astro Teller, co-founder and "Captain of Moonshots" at Alphabet’s X, into a conversation about reshaping the business narrative. From developing sticker technology to track global goods more sustainably, to pioneering affordable ways to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, Astro shares how he thinks moonshot thinking can reconcile profit, purpose, and planetary health. Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with W. Lee Warren. Can you change your brain? The anxious tendencies, the recurring grief, the patterns of rumination? Our guest today says you can. Dr. W. Lee Warren is a neurosurgeon and Iraq War veteran who performed 200 brain surgeries in a tent hospital during the war, came home carrying PTSD he wouldn't name for years, and later lost his 19-year-old son to murder. His book, The Life-Changing Art of Self-Brain Surgery, argues that the mind can reshape the very brain it thinks through, and that no grief, trauma, or lifelong pattern gets the final word on who you become. KEY IDEAS Feelings as barometer, not navigation: Why an alarming share of what you feel isn't tracking anything that's actually happening, and the small practice that changes how you respond to it. The 90% problem: Most of what you thought about today, you also thought yesterday, and that quiet repetition is busy building the exact brain you're convinced you're stuck with. Grief that refines instead of defines: What a father learns about resilience when the worst thing that ever happened to him threatens to become his whole identity. The fear you inherited but never earned: How trauma can travel three generations down a family line, and the study suggesting it can also be undone in one. Doing the hard thing on purpose: The small, unglamorous brain circuit that willpower actually runs on, and why making the bed can matter more than it sounds. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with W. Lee Warren Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do capitalism and hookup culture have in common? This week, Lee and Savannah unpack the viral Empire State Building skywalker stunt, exploring whether power is inherently corrupting. Lord of the Rings has finally entered the chat!  They break down a fascinating view on hookup culture, exploring how capitalism, attachment, purity culture, and our understanding of freedom all shape the way we think about sex and relationships. Things we mentioned in this episode: Do you really have a shirt from your town? Then Lee will wear it! Mail it to us: P.O. Box 50652, Nashville, TN 37205 Follow Lee on Substack! Skywalkers: A Love Story on Netflix The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien  The Republic by Plato Colton Barnaby's video on hookup culture Being Consumed by William T. Cavanaugh 40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can you change your brain? The anxious tendencies, the recurring grief, the patterns of rumination? Our guest today says you can. Dr. W. Lee Warren is a neurosurgeon and Iraq War veteran who performed 200 brain surgeries in a tent hospital during the war, came home carrying PTSD he wouldn't name for years, and later lost his 19-year-old son to murder. His book, ⁠The Life-Changing Art of Self-Brain Surgery⁠, argues that the mind can reshape the very brain it thinks through, and that no grief, trauma, or lifelong pattern gets the final word on who you become. KEY IDEAS Feelings as barometer, not navigation: Why an alarming share of what you feel isn't tracking anything that's actually happening, and the small practice that changes how you respond to it. The 90% problem: Most of what you thought about today, you also thought yesterday, and that quiet repetition is busy building the exact brain you're convinced you're stuck with. Grief that refines instead of defines: What a father learns about resilience when the worst thing that ever happened to him threatens to become his whole identity. The fear you inherited but never earned: How trauma can travel three generations down a family line, and the study suggesting it can also be undone in one. Doing the hard thing on purpose: The small, unglamorous brain circuit that willpower actually runs on, and why making the bed can matter more than it sounds. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with W. Lee Warren⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Curtis Chang. What if our institutions, even the broken ones, are worth saving? Curtis Chang doesn't think you can understand American politics right now unless you understand one thing, and it isn't what you'd expect. It isn't policy or party. It's fear: an anxiety about future loss that “both” sides are quietly managing, with liberals afraid of having religion imposed on their lives and conservatives afraid of losing a tradition they love. Chang, the founder of ⁠Good Faith⁠ and co-author of The After Party with David French and Russell Moore, has spent his life as a bridge person, ever since he arrived from Taiwan at age three. Here, he and Lee trace that fear all the way down to our institutions, which Curtis argues are not systems to build up or tear down, but people, and therefore worth repairing. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Curtis Chang⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠⁠⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Elon Musk became the world’s first trillionaire! If that doesn’t make you want to talk about money, nothing will. The world just got its first trillionaire in Elon Musk. While Lee and Savannah aren’t trillionaires, they’ve got their own stories to tell about money. This episode is an open conversation about what we’ve learned about money, what we’d do differently, and how Christians can think about money better. Things we mentioned in this episode: Anne-Laure Le Cunff (tiny experiments) on No Small Endeavor Unconditional on Apple TV Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe podcast Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond 40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if our institutions, even the broken ones, are worth saving? Curtis Chang doesn't think you can understand American politics right now unless you understand one thing, and it isn't what you'd expect. It isn't policy or party. It's fear: an anxiety about future loss that “both” sides are quietly managing, with liberals afraid of having religion imposed on their lives and conservatives afraid of losing a tradition they love. Chang, the founder of Good Faith and co-author of The After Party with David French and Russell Moore, has spent his life as a bridge person, ever since he arrived from Taiwan at age three. Here, he and Lee trace that fear all the way down to our institutions, which Curtis argues are not systems to build up or tear down, but people, and therefore worth repairing. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Curtis Chang Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with James Kimmel, Jr. There's a grievance that keeps coming back to you: in the shower, in traffic, at two in the morning. You replay it, win the argument again and settle the score again. It feels like justice, but it never quite satisfies.  James Kimmel Jr. spent decades trying to understand that pull. At seventeen, he came within seconds of committing a mass shooting, then drove away and devoted his life to the question of why he had wanted it so badly.  Now on the faculty of Yale's medical school, he makes a startling, evidence-backed claim: revenge is a literal addiction. A grievance activates the pain network in your brain, and your brain reaches for the dopamine hit of payback. It's why mass shooters are "grievance collectors," and why social media, in his words, has become a grievance transmission machine. But there's a second half to the story. Forgiveness, he argues, is a wonder drug we're already hardwired to take, one that stops the pain rather than masking it and asks nothing of the person who wronged you. Lee is invited to try it on the spot during the interview, and you can hear what happens. Listen as they discuss James’ new book, ⁠The Science of Revenge: Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction - and How to Overcome It⁠. Name the Grievance Revenge often begins with real pain, and recognizing that pain is the first step toward freedom. Understand Your Brain Kimmel explains how grievance activates the brain’s pain network and makes retaliation feel rewarding. Resist Revenge Culture From social media to entertainment, our culture often trains us to nurse grievances and seek payback. Forgive Without Excusing Forgiveness does not require pardon, reconciliation, or staying in unsafe relationships; it can be an internal act of healing. Practice Letting Go Imagining forgiveness, even briefly, can interrupt pain and open space for better choices. Heal the Common Good Kimmel suggests that forgiveness is not only personal medicine but a social good that can help communities flourish. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with James Kimmel, Jr.⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can creativity transform the darkness of your past? Lee sits down with Grammy-nominated songwriter Thomm Jutz to discuss his grandfather's suicide, apparently after he was unable to come to terms with the fact that he'd been a Nazi, a friend lost to alcoholism, and Carl Jung's aid in his life, all while sharing songs he's written that helped heal his own inherited darkness. This episode is a preview of a longer conversation. The full discussion is available in the NSE+ community. 👉 ⁠Join NSE+ HERE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it mean when a “clean” and “family friendly” comedian supports the UFC Freedom 250 fight, rubbing shoulders with unethical and greedy billionaires?  This isn’t really about Nate Bargatze. It's about all of us and the selective moral lines we draw. This week on The Subtext, Lee and Savannah wrestle with questions of public witness, private relationships, power, and consistency, looking to Jesus' encounters with both the oppressed and the powerful. In a world where every public act seems to communicate something, how do we live with integrity while practicing a morality that refuses to leave anyone behind? Things we mentioned in this episode: Scandalous Witness by Lee C. Camp Who Is My Enemy? by Lee C. Camp Mere Discipleship by Lee C. Camp Missing Me by Ayana Lage Biological War: A Scenario by Annie Jacobsen (episode out on No Small Endeavor July 27th!) Savannah's Substack article: "The toothless, selective moralism of a Nate Bargatze Christianity"  Musa al-Gharbi on No Small Endeavor Brother to a Dragonfly by Will Campbell The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James Cone Loretta Ross on No Small Endeavor 40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's a grievance that keeps coming back to you: in the shower, in traffic, at two in the morning. You replay it, win the argument again and settle the score again. It feels like justice, but it never quite satisfies.  James Kimmel Jr. spent decades trying to understand that pull. At seventeen, he came within seconds of committing a mass shooting, then drove away and devoted his life to the question of why he had wanted it so badly.  Now on the faculty of Yale's medical school, he makes a startling, evidence-backed claim: revenge is a literal addiction. A grievance activates the pain network in your brain, and your brain reaches for the dopamine hit of payback. It's why mass shooters are "grievance collectors," and why social media, in his words, has become a grievance transmission machine. But there's a second half to the story. Forgiveness, he argues, is a wonder drug we're already hardwired to take, one that stops the pain rather than masking it and asks nothing of the person who wronged you. Lee is invited to try it on the spot during the interview, and you can hear what happens. Listen as they discuss James’ new book, The Science of Revenge: Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction - and How to Overcome It. Name the Grievance Revenge often begins with real pain, and recognizing that pain is the first step toward freedom. Understand Your Brain Kimmel explains how grievance activates the brain’s pain network and makes retaliation feel rewarding. Resist Revenge Culture From social media to entertainment, our culture often trains us to nurse grievances and seek payback. Forgive Without Excusing Forgiveness does not require pardon, reconciliation, or staying in unsafe relationships; it can be an internal act of healing. Practice Letting Go Imagining forgiveness, even briefly, can interrupt pain and open space for better choices. Heal the Common Good Kimmel suggests that forgiveness is not only personal medicine but a social good that can help communities flourish. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with James Kimmel, Jr. Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Lee C. Camp. In a rare role reversal, No Small Endeavor host Lee C. Camp takes the guest seat as theologian and journalist Russell Moore interviews him about his book, releasing in paperback July 2nd, Scandalous Witness: A Little Political Manifesto for Christians.  Rather than offering a defense of Christian power in America, Lee reckons honestly with the ways Christians have often been bad neighbors, especially when faith has been reduced to “values” extracted from the story of Jesus and used to control others. Together, Lee and Russell explore how Christian witness might still serve the common good through humility, prudence, and the imaginative power of art. In a divided and weary public life, this episode asks what it would mean for Christians, and all people seeking the good life, to trade domination for service, despair for action, and ideology for the patient work of human flourishing. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Lee C. Camp Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The paperback edition of Lee's book just dropped, and Savannah's got questions! Savannah and Lee are celebrating the paperback release of Scandalous Witness by working through the book’s big ideas: why Christianity is not a religion but a politic, liberalism, Romans 13, the dream of a Christian America, and, perhaps most important, why Lee can’t stand the word "countercultural.” Use code WITNESS40 for 40% off the paperback, and don't forget to enter the giveaway on Instagram. Things we mentioned in this episode: 40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. ENTER TO WIN A FREE COPY: Follow @thesubtextshow and tag a friend to enter! Giveaway closes on Tuesday, July 7th, 2026 at 11:59pm CT.  ORDER SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Amazon | Barnes & Nobel | Bookshop.org | Eerdmans Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In a rare role reversal, No Small Endeavor host Lee C. Camp takes the guest seat as theologian and journalist Russell Moore interviews him about his book, releasing in paperback July 2nd, Scandalous Witness: A Little Political Manifesto for Christians.  Rather than offering a defense of Christian power in America, Lee reckons honestly with the ways Christians have often been bad neighbors, especially when faith has been reduced to “values” extracted from the story of Jesus and used to control others. Together, Lee and Russell explore how Christian witness might still serve the common good through humility, prudence, and the imaginative power of art. In a divided and weary public life, this episode asks what it would mean for Christians, and all people seeking the good life, to trade domination for service, despair for action, and ideology for the patient work of human flourishing. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Lee C. Camp⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Allison Russell. How does someone turn a childhood marked by danger and loss into a life full of music, courage, and joy? Allison Russell’s life has been marked by trauma, survival, and a persistent return to beauty. After leaving an abusive home as a teenager and finding refuge in the streets and music of Montreal, she slowly discovered that art could become more than escape.  It could become a way to tell the truth and stay alive. In this conversation, Russell reflects on the making of her breakthrough album Outside Child, the ancestral stories shaping her upcoming memoir, and the hard-won practices of forgiveness, motherhood, and community that help her keep choosing joy.  Key ideas in this episode: Choose Joy Anyway Russell describes joy not as denial, but as a daily practice that can coexist with grief, trauma, and uncertainty. Transform Pain Through Art Music becomes a refuge, a release, and a way of metabolizing suffering into something that can help others heal. Recover Your Lineage Russell’s search for her biological father and Black family history reveals how ancestry can deepen identity, resilience, and belonging. Break Cycles of Harm Forgiveness, for Russell, is not excusing abuse but refusing to let vengeance determine the shape of her life. Practice Radical Belonging Her work in harm reduction and housing equality taught her that every person deserves safety, dignity, and loving kindness. Return to the Body Walking, running, yoga, nature, and music help Russell stay grounded while doing the difficult inner work of memoir and memory. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Allison Russell Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We’re doing a temperature check of different cultural artifacts, including the UFC Freedom 250 fight, open theism, the gift of anger, and skinny culture. This week on The Subtext, Savannah and Lee do a full cultural temperature check. They react to the UFC Freedom 250 chaos (yes, including that post-fight interview), dig into a listener’s question about Open Theism and whether God actually knows how the story ends, explore why anger gets genderized, and wade into the online debate around ultra-thin bodies and who gets to say something. It's theology, body politics, and combat sports…all in one episode! Just another day for us. Things we mentioned in this episode: The Technological Society by Jacques Ellul Please Use AI by Shawn Smucker Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke Suzanne Stabile on No Small Endeavor Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How does someone turn a childhood marked by danger and loss into a life full of music, courage, and joy? Allison Russell’s life has been marked by trauma, survival, and a persistent return to beauty. After leaving an abusive home as a teenager and finding refuge in the streets and music of Montreal, she slowly discovered that art could become more than escape.  It could become a way to tell the truth and stay alive. In this conversation, Russell reflects on the making of her breakthrough album Outside Child, the ancestral stories shaping her upcoming memoir, and the hard-won practices of forgiveness, motherhood, and community that help her keep choosing joy.  Key ideas in this episode: Choose Joy Anyway Russell describes joy not as denial, but as a daily practice that can coexist with grief, trauma, and uncertainty. Transform Pain Through Art Music becomes a refuge, a release, and a way of metabolizing suffering into something that can help others heal. Recover Your Lineage Russell’s search for her biological father and Black family history reveals how ancestry can deepen identity, resilience, and belonging. Break Cycles of Harm Forgiveness, for Russell, is not excusing abuse but refusing to let vengeance determine the shape of her life. Practice Radical Belonging Her work in harm reduction and housing equality taught her that every person deserves safety, dignity, and loving kindness. Return to the Body Walking, running, yoga, nature, and music help Russell stay grounded while doing the difficult inner work of memoir and memory. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Allison Russell⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit hiyahealth.com/NSE! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Marisa Renee Lee. How do we learn to live with grief when healing takes longer than we hoped? Author and advocate Marisa Renee Lee learned about grief early, watching her mother move through years of illness before losing her to cancer. Years later, after becoming a mother herself and developing long COVID, Marisa found herself facing a new kind of uncertainty. One that reshaped her body, her work, and her understanding of hope. In this conversation, she reflects on grief, chronic illness, faith, joy, and the healing that becomes possible when we stop pretending we can carry everything alone. Key ideas in this episode: Choose Realistic Hope Hope does not have to mean pretending everything will be fine; it can mean committing to the next faithful action toward a better place. Make Space to Heal Marisa challenges a productivity-driven culture by reminding us that grief, illness, and uncertainty require time, attention, and real support. Ask for Help Healing becomes possible when we name our limits honestly and let other people carry pieces of the burden with us. Let Joy Do Its Work Laughter, beauty, concerts, television, family stories, and small daily pleasures can create room for the brain and body to process pain. Honor the Body’s Grief Loss is not just emotional; grief can affect the brain, weaken the immune system, and make ordinary tasks feel impossible. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Marisa Renee Lee⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When the world feels like it's ending, some people buy bunkers, some people move to Argentina, some people stop reading the news entirely. How should Christians behave in the face of existential dread? Paradise got renewed for a third season, and we're using it as an excuse to ask a question we've all been quietly avoiding: how do you cope when the threat is real? In this episode, Savannah and Lee dig into a Hulu thriller about who gets saved when civilization collapses, Annie Jacobsen's minute-by-minute account of nuclear war, a billionaire building escape routes out of the country he helped shape, and one man in Ohio who decided the only sane response was to stop paying attention entirely. What do we do with existential dread? For those of us with faith, what are we actually supposed to do with it? Things we mentioned in this episode: Kevin Morby Nuclear War: A Scenario by Annie Jacobsen Paradise on Hulu The Truman Show Allison Russell on No Small Endeavor Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do we learn to live with grief when healing takes longer than we hoped? Author and advocate Marisa Renee Lee learned about grief early, watching her mother move through years of illness before losing her to cancer. Years later, after becoming a mother herself and developing long COVID, Marisa found herself facing a new kind of uncertainty. One that reshaped her body, her work, and her understanding of hope. In this conversation, she reflects on grief, chronic illness, faith, joy, and the healing that becomes possible when we stop pretending we can carry everything alone. Key ideas in this episode: Choose Realistic Hope Hope does not have to mean pretending everything will be fine; it can mean committing to the next faithful action toward a better place. Make Space to Heal Marisa challenges a productivity-driven culture by reminding us that grief, illness, and uncertainty require time, attention, and real support. Ask for Help Healing becomes possible when we name our limits honestly and let other people carry pieces of the burden with us. Let Joy Do Its Work Laughter, beauty, concerts, television, family stories, and small daily pleasures can create room for the brain and body to process pain. Honor the Body’s Grief Loss is not just emotional; grief can affect the brain, weaken the immune system, and make ordinary tasks feel impossible. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Marisa Renee Lee⁠⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Hunter Prosper. What happens when caring for others costs you the ability to feel? During the COVID pandemic, Hunter spent his days caring for critically ill patients in the ICU. Over time, the emotional weight became overwhelming. He found himself pulling away not only from patients, but from friends, family, and even his own emotions. Then one day, desperate to reconnect with the world, he walked outside and struck up a conversation with a stranger. That simple interaction eventually became the viral project Stories From A Stranger, a series built around honest conversations with ordinary people about love, fear, meaning, loss, and what it means to be human. Key Ideas Silence Can Heal Hunter explains why meaningful listening often requires resisting the urge to interrupt, fix, or fill the silence. Connection Requires Vulnerability After COVID burnout left him emotionally numb, Hunter discovered that healing meant risking closeness again instead of avoiding it. Every Person Wants To Be Seen From ICU patients to strangers in the park, Hunter’s work reveals how deeply people long to feel heard and understood. Shared Emotions Unite Us While our stories differ, Hunter argues that emotions like grief, anxiety, love, and hope connect every human being. Authenticity Builds Confidence Hunter reflects on how embracing vulnerability — rather than performing strength — made him more grounded and secure in himself. Conversation Can Restore Humanity Through thousands of interviews, Hunter has learned that authentic conversation can transform loneliness into community and fear into compassion. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Hunter Prosper⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When a cage fight lands on the White House lawn, it's worth asking… what exactly are we celebrating? On June 14, 2026 (Flag Day, Trump's 80th birthday, and the eve of America's 250th anniversary) the White House South Lawn will host something it never has before: a UFC cage fight. We're going beneath the spectacle to ask what it actually means when the symbols we use to celebrate a nation reveal something uncomfortable about who that nation has become. Things we mentioned in this episode: Nuclear War: A Scenario by Annie Jacobsen Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman Kin by Tayari Jones Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when caring for others costs you the ability to feel? During the COVID pandemic, Hunter spent his days caring for critically ill patients in the ICU. Over time, the emotional weight became overwhelming. He found himself pulling away not only from patients, but from friends, family, and even his own emotions. Then one day, desperate to reconnect with the world, he walked outside and struck up a conversation with a stranger. That simple interaction eventually became the viral project Stories From A Stranger, a series built around honest conversations with ordinary people about love, fear, meaning, loss, and what it means to be human. Key Ideas Silence Can Heal Hunter explains why meaningful listening often requires resisting the urge to interrupt, fix, or fill the silence. Connection Requires Vulnerability After COVID burnout left him emotionally numb, Hunter discovered that healing meant risking closeness again instead of avoiding it. Every Person Wants To Be Seen From ICU patients to strangers in the park, Hunter’s work reveals how deeply people long to feel heard and understood. Shared Emotions Unite Us While our stories differ, Hunter argues that emotions like grief, anxiety, love, and hope connect every human being. Authenticity Builds Confidence Hunter reflects on how embracing vulnerability — rather than performing strength — made him more grounded and secure in himself. Conversation Can Restore Humanity Through thousands of interviews, Hunter has learned that authentic conversation can transform loneliness into community and fear into compassion. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Hunter Prosper⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Norman Wirzba. How does the pursuit of independence distort our understanding of the good life? Before Norman Wirzba became a theologian, philosopher, and public intellectual, he was a farm boy in Southern Alberta, waking before sunrise to tend to the land and animals in his care, and he says that these early experiences working with the natural world taught him one essential lesson: life does not exist on our terms. Now a professor at Duke University working at the intersection of theology, philosophy, and agrarian studies, Norman argues that modern culture has trapped us in an illusion of self-reliance, when the key to a good life may simply require a deeper understanding of our place in what he calls the meshwork world.  Key Ideas: See Beyond Self-Sufficiency Norman challenges the modern myth of the isolated individual and invites us to recognize how deeply our lives depend upon others. Let Care Shape Your Life Farming taught Norman that flourishing begins with patience, attentiveness, and responsibility toward living things. Rediscover the Sacred Ordinary Everyday realities, from baking a pie to tending animals, become windows into gratitude, beauty, and shared human creativity. Resist the Culture of Control The pursuit of frictionless living and technological mastery can erode our capacity for compassion, humility, and wonder. Practice Rest Rest is not just about stopping work, but making time to cherish one another. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Norman Wirzba⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We have a substitute teacher on today's episode! Lee is out of town, so Savannah called upon All the Buried Women co-host Beth Allison Barr to step in. The trad wife dream might look beautiful on camera, but what if you actually have to live it? What happens when a woman who sells the fantasy of "traditional" womanhood wakes up and has to actually live it? Using Yesteryear as a jumping-off point, Savannah sits down with historian and author Beth Allison Barr to dissect the trad wife movement, what it promises, what it erases, and what women actually lost before they had the legal right to say no. Things we mentioned in this episode: All the Buried Women podcast For All Mankind on Apple TV A Rome of One's Own by Emma Southon Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman The Five by Hallie Rubenhold Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Norman Wirzba. How does the pursuit of independence distort our understanding of the good life? Before Norman Wirzba became a theologian, philosopher, and public intellectual, he was a farm boy in Southern Alberta, waking before sunrise to tend to the land and animals in his care, and he says that these early experiences working with the natural world taught him one essential lesson: life does not exist on our terms. Now a professor at Duke University working at the intersection of theology, philosophy, and agrarian studies, Norman argues that modern culture has trapped us in an illusion of self-reliance, when the key to a good life may simply require a deeper understanding of our place in what he calls the meshwork world.  Key Ideas: See Beyond Self-Sufficiency Norman challenges the modern myth of the isolated individual and invites us to recognize how deeply our lives depend upon others. Let Care Shape Your Life Farming taught Norman that flourishing begins with patience, attentiveness, and responsibility toward living things. Rediscover the Sacred Ordinary Everyday realities, from baking a pie to tending animals, become windows into gratitude, beauty, and shared human creativity. Resist the Culture of Control The pursuit of frictionless living and technological mastery can erode our capacity for compassion, humility, and wonder. Practice Rest Rest is not just about stopping work, but making time to cherish one another. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Norman Wirzba The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit IGottaAsk.com to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Joe Vukov. What if AI’s greatest revelation isn’t about technology at all — but about us? Philosopher Joe Vukov joins Lee C. Camp for a conversation about artificial intelligence, human dignity, and the spiritual dangers hidden beneath our technological optimism. Drawing from philosophy, theology, neuroscience, and Catholic social thought, Vukov argues that AI exposes how modern culture has already reduced human beings to data processors, forgetting the importance of bodies, relationships, and rooted human presence. To hear more on this topic from Joe, along with other scholars and experts in the technology space, listen to our two-part series: The Human Cost of AI Part 1 - Money, Sex, and Tools ⁠https://pod.link/1513178238/episode/NjgzOWVkY2MtMmQzOC0xMWYxLTkzOTYtY2Y0MDMzMjMyMTVh?view=apps&sort=popularity⁠ Part 2 - What Is It All For? ⁠https://pod.link/1513178238/episode/MWE5OGRlOWEtMzJjNy0xMWYxLTlhNzEtYWI0YzMzZDZjOWI2?view=apps&sort=popularity⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for part one of our AI series⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You asked, we answered. From how Savannah and Lee became friends to whether Jesus is God (no big deal), this episode covers the questions YOU asked. We get into faith and doubt, how to stay hopeful when the world feels chaotic, what it looks like to do ministry well right now, and the books that have shaped us most spiritually.  Things we mentioned in this episode: Mere Christianity by CS Lewis New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton Markings by Dag Hammarskjöld The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence The Politics of Jesus by John Howard Yoder In Good Company: The Church as Polis by Stanley Hauerwas Bonus: Stanley Hauerwas on No Small Endeavor Brother to a Dragonfly by Will D. Campbell Who Will Be A Witness byDrew G.I. Hart The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James Cone Acts: A Theological Commentary on the Bible by Willie James Jennings Emilie Maureen Townes books A More Christlike Word by Bradley Jersak Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God by Brian Zahnd Telling Secrets by Frederick Buechner Mighty Poplar Stephen Wilson Jr. The Human Cost of AI Part 1 - No Small Endeavor The Human Cost of AI Part 2 - No Small Endeavor The Friendship Recession - The Subtext Your Favorite Musician Isn't Real - The Subtext How the Story Ends by Savannah Locke Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today we're sharing something a little different: a conversation Lee recently had as a guest on the With & For podcast with Dr. Pam King. Pam is a developmental psychologist, Executive Director of the Thrive Center for Human Development at Fuller Seminary, and an ordained Presbyterian minister. Like Lee, she has spent much of her career exploring how faith, spirituality, and virtue can help people live with purpose, love, and meaning. Their conversation centers on the classical cardinal virtues, what Lee calls the "hinge virtues": prudence, justice, courage, and temperance. Lee unpacks how these ancient philosophical ideas can be broken down into concrete daily habits and practices, including the story of a student whose work with the virtues led her to jump out of an airplane and rebuild her relationship with her mother. Pam and Lee also get personal, talking honestly about the work of moving through shame and why healthy vulnerability is essential to our closest relationships. We're grateful to Dr. Pam King and the With & For team for letting us share this episode with you. If it resonates, go follow ⁠With & For⁠ wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Linley Dixon. What does it mean to live a good life in a world increasingly disconnected from the land that sustains it?  Before Linley Dixon became co-director of the Real Organic Project, she spent years in academia studying plant pathology and soil microorganisms, peering through microscopes at the unseen relationships beneath our feet. But a passion for organic farming and the well-being of workers and the planet led her into her current role as an activist in a farmer-led movement working to restore integrity to the practice of Organic Farming. Linley offers us a vision of human flourishing rooted not in speed, efficiency, or endless consumption, but in patience, stewardship, and radical generosity. She explains why healthy soil lies at the heart of authentic organic farming, why the word “radical” is actually a botanical term, and why she believes true change begins when ordinary people are willing to tell difficult truths. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Linley Dixon ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dr. Erin Calipari thinks we're getting a lot wrong about addiction, so she and her lab are working to change that by conducting research that could save lives and destigmatize unhelpful narratives. In this episode, we dig into The Pitt's portrayal of high-functioning addiction and what it gets right that most TV gets wrong.  We sit down with Dr. Erin Calipari to unpack what addiction actually is at the molecular level, and why so much of what society believes about it is not just wrong, but harmful. From the brain's hijacked learning systems to the gender-specific realities of addiction, Dr. Calipari breaks down the gap between cutting-edge science and the policies, stigmas, and drug wars shaping real lives. Things we mentioned in this episode: Follow Erin! Euphoria on HBO Slow Horses on Apple TV Flight of Passage by Rinker Buck Down the Drain by Julia Fox The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu The Pitt on HBO Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it mean to live a good life in a world increasingly disconnected from the land that sustains it?  Before Linley Dixon became co-director of the Real Organic Project, she spent years in academia studying plant pathology and soil microorganisms, peering through microscopes at the unseen relationships beneath our feet. But a passion for organic farming and the well-being of workers and the planet led her into her current role as an activist in a farmer-led movement working to restore integrity to the practice of Organic Farming. Linley offers us a vision of human flourishing rooted not in speed, efficiency, or endless consumption, but in patience, stewardship, and radical generosity. She explains why healthy soil lies at the heart of authentic organic farming, why the word “radical” is actually a botanical term, and why she believes true change begins when ordinary people are willing to tell difficult truths. ⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Linley Dixon⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Tish Harrison Warren. What if burnout isn’t failure, but an invitation to become more fully human? Back in 2023, Anglican priest and author Tish Harrison Warren hit a wall. She was exhausted by her work on faith and public discourse at the New York Times, and discouraged by the constant controversy that came hand in hand with writing about religion in a public forum. So she left. What followed was a 2 year exploration of burnout in modern culture, and her most recent book: What Grows in Weary Lands. In it, she explores the wisdom of early Christian teaching, and the many ways that embracing limits, difficulty, and the “arduous good” can lead to deeper meaning and authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: -Embrace the Arduous Good: The most meaningful parts of life (relationships, faith, vocation,) are often difficult, and their difficulty is part of their inherent value. -Grow Roots Through Limits: Depth comes not from endless options but from accepting constraints and staying present long enough for roots to form. -Practice Faith as Craft: Like any meaningful discipline, faith is shaped through daily habits and persistence. -Walk Toward the Desert: Seasons of burnout and spiritual dryness are not failures but invitations to deeper growth and transformation. -Choose the Local Act of Love: Real flourishing happens in embodied, everyday acts of care, not abstract ideals or grand ambition. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Tish Harrison Warren ⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when the Bible becomes a stage prop for national identity instead of a text that interrogates it? This episode explores “America Reads the Bible,” a high-profile event where political leaders, actors, and influencers recited Scripture from the nation’s capital, and, drawing on Bonhoeffer’s warning about reading the Bible for ourselves instead of against ourselves, Savannah and Lee examine how the same text is used to fuel both nationalism and its critique, alongside debates like Tennessee’s Ten Commandments bill. Things we mentioned in this episode: Endurance by Alfred Lansing The Wright Brothers by David McCullough Flight of Passage: A Memoir by Rinker Buck The Congruent Life by C.E. Jarnagin Running Point on Netflix Slow Horses on Apple TV Eboo Patel on No Small Endeavor AJ Levine on No Small Endeavor Live Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if burnout isn’t failure, but an invitation to become more fully human? Back in 2023, Anglican priest and author Tish Harrison Warren hit a wall. She was exhausted by her work on faith and public discourse at the New York Times, and discouraged by the constant controversy that came hand in hand with writing about religion in a public forum. So she left. What followed was a 2 year exploration of burnout in modern culture, and her most recent book: ⁠What Grows in Weary Lands⁠. In it, she explores the wisdom of early Christian teaching, and the many ways that embracing limits, difficulty, and the “arduous good” can lead to deeper meaning and authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: -Embrace the Arduous Good: The most meaningful parts of life (relationships, faith, vocation,) are often difficult, and their difficulty is part of their inherent value. -Grow Roots Through Limits: Depth comes not from endless options but from accepting constraints and staying present long enough for roots to form. -Practice Faith as Craft: Like any meaningful discipline, faith is shaped through daily habits and persistence. -Walk Toward the Desert: Seasons of burnout and spiritual dryness are not failures but invitations to deeper growth and transformation. -Choose the Local Act of Love: Real flourishing happens in embodied, everyday acts of care, not abstract ideals or grand ambition. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Tish Harrison Warren⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Nicholas Ma. What if the goal of disagreement isn’t to win, but to stay in relationship? After producing the smash hit documentary “Won’t You Be My Neighbor,” on the life of Fred Rogers, filmmaker Nicholas Ma had one lingering question: Where is the kindness and acceptance that Mr. Rogers embodied in today’s divided world? He found the answer in his latest documentary, Leap of Faith, which follows 12 pastors as they navigate the deep theological and cultural challenges that divide them. Nicholas discusses the process of making the film, the unlikely friendships that developed, and the quiet power of sitting with another person’s pain. Key Ideas: -Love Beyond Understanding True friendship grows when we learn to love the parts in others that we cannot understand. -Stay Present in Pain Transformation often begins not by fixing or debating, but by sitting with another’s pain and bearing witness together. -Choose Relationship Over Certainty Clinging to certainty can make our worldview fragile, while embracing the unknown creates space for growth, faith, and connection. -Endure the Process of Change Meaningful change requires time; like any deep human process, it cannot be rushed without losing its depth. -Practice Proximate Care Human flourishing begins locally—by loving our neighbors well and cultivating communities of care where we are. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Nicholas Ma⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Noah Kahan’s The Great Divide is a brutally honest soundtrack to growing up, drifting away, and figuring out how to make peace with the place you come from. This episode dives into The Great Divide, the latest record from Noah Kahan, and unpacks its themes of home, relationships, love, and friendship. In it, they explore their own connections to their hometowns, Wendell Berry’s hot take about automobiles, and Kahan’s own eschatology (that he may or may not know about). Things we mentioned in this episode: The Great Divide album by Noah Kahan The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon Alabama I Am Bound by Walker Burroughs Out of Your Car, Off Your Horse by Wendell Berry Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth Center Church by Tim Keller Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the goal of disagreement isn’t to win, but to stay in relationship? After producing the smash hit documentary “Won’t You Be My Neighbor,” on the life of Fred Rogers, filmmaker Nicholas Ma had one lingering question: Where is the kindness and acceptance that Mr. Rogers embodied in today’s divided world? He found the answer in his latest documentary, Leap of Faith, which follows 12 pastors as they navigate the deep theological and cultural challenges that divide them. Nicholas discusses the process of making the film, the unlikely friendships that developed, and the quiet power of sitting with another person’s pain. Key Ideas: -Love Beyond Understanding True friendship grows when we learn to love the parts in others that we cannot understand. -Stay Present in Pain Transformation often begins not by fixing or debating, but by sitting with another’s pain and bearing witness together. -Choose Relationship Over Certainty Clinging to certainty can make our worldview fragile, while embracing the unknown creates space for growth, faith, and connection. -Endure the Process of Change Meaningful change requires time; like any deep human process, it cannot be rushed without losing its depth. -Practice Proximate Care Human flourishing begins locally—by loving our neighbors well and cultivating communities of care where we are. ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Nicholas Ma⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Kristin T. Lee. What happens when we question the faith that formed us? Dr. Kristin T. Lee, physician and author of We Mend with Gold: An Immigrant Daughter’s Reckoning with American Christianity, reflects on her journey as a Chinese American navigating faith and identity in the immigrant church of her youth. In this conversation, she explores the beauty and complexity of immigrant communities, the unconscious bias that can undermine true belonging, and the courageous work of reconstructing a more authentic and life-giving spirituality. Together, we consider what it means to pursue faith and community in a fractured world. Key Ideas: Embrace Complex Identity Authentic living begins by integrating, not erasing, the contradictions that exist between one's culture, faith, and personal history. Question Inherited Faith Honest spiritual growth often means examining what we’ve been taught and discerning for ourselves how those ideas might lead to true flourishing. Redefine What’s “Normal” Cultural norms and unconscious bias often hide power and privilege, and naming them opens the door to deeper healing and justice. Practice Honest Community Flourishing relationships depend on vulnerability, where hidden pain can be shared and transformed in community. Resist the Endless Climb The pursuit of the American Dream can rob us of true meaning and purpose if we don’t also consider the people it leaves behind. Find Beauty in Brokenness Like kintsugi, a meaningful life is not about avoiding fractures, but allowing them to be mended into something more whole and honest. ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Kristin T. Lee⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are our shrinking attention spans rewriting the rules of storytelling? This week on The Subtext, we dig into the claim that streaming platforms like Netflix are deliberately dumbing down storytelling to accommodate distracted viewers. What is being lost when stories are engineered for half-watching? Are we shaping content around distraction, or training ourselves to expect it? And in a world where story is increasingly reduced to “content,” what does it mean to tell something true, meaningful, and worth paying attention to? Things we mentioned in this episode: Trust Me on Netflix Waiting for God by Simone Weil Jefferson Fisher on Diary of a CEO Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when we question the faith that formed us? Dr. Kristin T. Lee, physician and author of We Mend with Gold: An Immigrant Daughter’s Reckoning with American Christianity, reflects on her journey as a Chinese American navigating faith and identity in the immigrant church of her youth. In this conversation, she explores the beauty and complexity of immigrant communities, the unconscious bias that can undermine true belonging, and the courageous work of reconstructing a more authentic and life-giving spirituality. Together, we consider what it means to pursue faith and community in a fractured world. Key Ideas: Embrace Complex Identity Authentic living begins by integrating, not erasing, the contradictions that exist between one's culture, faith, and personal history. Question Inherited Faith Honest spiritual growth often means examining what we’ve been taught and discerning for ourselves how those ideas might lead to true flourishing. Redefine What’s “Normal” Cultural norms and unconscious bias often hide power and privilege, and naming them opens the door to deeper healing and justice. Practice Honest Community Flourishing relationships depend on vulnerability, where hidden pain can be shared and transformed in community. Resist the Endless Climb The pursuit of the American Dream can rob us of true meaning and purpose if we don’t also consider the people it leaves behind. Find Beauty in Brokenness Like kintsugi, a meaningful life is not about avoiding fractures, but allowing them to be mended into something more whole and honest. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Kristin T. Lee Join NSE+ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow @nosmallendeavor  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Shankar Vedantam. We all like to believe that we live our lives rationally, deliberately, and consciously. But what if our conscious decision-making is just the tip of the iceberg? “ I feel like I have a full picture of what's happening inside my own mind,” says Shankar Vedantam. But it turns out “there is a large portion of our mind that's working outside of our conscious awareness.” Shankar founded Hidden Brain Media in order to teach people what science has uncovered about our brains. In this episode, he discusses why we’re not as autonomous as we think we are, and the profound implications for the ways we act, think, and live. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Shankar Vedantam⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From a Gen Z grunge pop artist’s critique of Bible interpretation to politics to the Artemis II mission, God had a big week in pop culture. This week on The Subtext, we unpack a wave of God-talk across pop culture, from Sofia Isella’s haunting critique of biblical “context,” to Paula White-Cain’s eyebrow-raising comparison of Trump to Jesus, to Perez Hilton’s post-near-death approach to scripture. We also zoom out (literally!) with a powerful Easter message from the Artemis II crew that reframes faith, humanity, and our place in the universe. Things we mentioned in this episode: Endurance by Alfred Lansing The Wright Brothers by David McCullough The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey  There There by Tommy Orange Cross Vision by Gregory A. Boyd  Jesus was a Feminist by Leonard Swidler  Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We all like to believe that we live our lives rationally, deliberately, and consciously. But what if our conscious decision-making is just the tip of the iceberg? “ I feel like I have a full picture of what's happening inside my own mind,” says Shankar Vedantam. But it turns out “there is a large portion of our mind that's working outside of our conscious awareness.” Shankar founded Hidden Brain Media in order to teach people what science has uncovered about our brains. In this episode, he discusses why we’re not as autonomous as we think we are, and the profound implications for the ways we act, think, and live. ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Shankar Vedantam⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Rosalind Picard. What if the technologies we build to serve us begin to quietly shape who we become? As part of our series The Human Cost of AI, Rosalind Picard offers a profound window into both the promise and the peril of artificial intelligence. A pioneer in affective computing, her work sits at the intersection of neuroscience, ethics, and the search for meaning raising urgent questions about human dignity, embodiment, and care. We’re sharing the full, unabridged conversation between Rosalind Picard and Lee recorded live at the Baylor Symposium on Faith & Culture: Technology and the Human Person in the Age of Al. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 2 of The Human Cost of AI⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when a church starts thinking like a brand, and hires people to protect its image? In this episode, we explore the rise of reputation management inside religious institutions, starting with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its growing ecosystem of influencers, media strategy, and image control. From the “second Mormon moment” on social media to The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, we ask what it means when faith communities adopt the tools of PR and branding. Along the way, we look at how reputation management can shape not just perception, but truth, connecting it to broader questions of power, storytelling, and what gets protected (or buried) in the name of a larger mission, including the complicated legacy of figures like Cesar Chavez. When reputation matters most, who pays the price? Things we mentioned in this episode: New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We’re building smarter, faster tools every day, but are they helping us live better lives or just accelerating us in the wrong direction? In part two of The Human Cost of AI, Lee C. Camp shifts from diagnosing the forces behind the AI revolution to discerning how we might live well within it. Drawing on voices from neuroscience, theology, and philosophy, this episode explores three essential questions around purpose, human dignity, and agency. At stake is nothing less than authentic human flourishing in a technological age. Guests in this episode: Carissa Carter, Scott Doorley, Josh Brake, Rosalind Picard, Baratunde Thurston, Joe Vukov, and Carlos Whittaker. Key Ideas: -Clarify Your Purpose In a culture obsessed with speed and efficiency, we must ask why we are using AI and whether it serves meaningful living or misdirected progress. -Reimagine What’s Human As machines replicate language and reasoning, we are invited to rediscover human dignity through embodiment and relationship. -Practice Courageous Agency Even without control over systems, we can resist, choose differently, and cultivate habits that align technology with the common good. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 2 of The Human Cost of AI⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Josh Brake. What if the tools shaping our future are also reshaping our humanity? As part of our series The Human Cost of AI, Josh Brake stands out as a uniquely thoughtful voice, bringing together engineering, philosophy, and theology to ask deeper questions about technology and human flourishing. We wanted to bring you the full, unabridged conversation that Josh and Lee had. This is a rich and honest exploration of what it means to live wisely, faithfully, and humanly in an age of artificial intelligence. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 1 of The Human Cost of AI⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lee and Savannah welcome a guest on this week’s episode to discuss why everyone hates poetry! In the hot seat is professor and poet Donovan McAbee, who recently published Holy the Body, a collection of poems exploring loss, grief, and doubt. Together, they talk about the beauty of uncertainty and how poetry can be the translator of life’s darkest experiences. If you liked the selected poems McAbee read on this episode, make sure to pick up a copy of Holy the Body! Things we mentioned in this episode: Holy the Body by Donovan McAbee Selected Poems by Seamus Heaney Endurance by Alfred Lansing The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon Viola Davis on Good Hang with Amy Poehler Falling by James L. Dickey Praying Drunk by Andrew Hudgins Models of the Church by Avery Dulles Follow Donovan McAbee: Instagram Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the greatest danger of AI isn’t that it becomes human, but that it reshapes what it means to be one? In part one of this series, we explore artificial intelligence through a sobering insight: every ship we build also creates the possibility of a shipwreck. The question is not whether AI will save us or destroy us, but how our own formation may already be the collateral damage of its rise. To trace the human cost of AI, we follow three fault lines: tools, sex, and money. We examine how these technologies shape our habits and desires, and how they are shaped by the systems of power we live within. Along the way, we hear from leading scholars and technologists, including computer scientist Josh Brake, philosopher Joe Vukov, MIT professor Rosalind Picard, journalist Garrett Graff, and data scientist Rumman Chowdhury. Together, they challenge the idea that AI is merely a neutral tool, revealing how it quietly directs our attention, relationships, and sense of purpose and inviting us to reconsider what it means to live well and remain human, in an age of powerful machines. Key Ideas: -Rethink “Just a Tool” Technologies are never neutral; their design subtly shapes our habits, attention, and even our sense of agency. -Ask Who You’re Becoming The deeper question isn’t what we use AI for, but how it forms our character and communities over time. -Resist the Illusion of Understanding AI systems can mimic human thought, but they do not understand meaning—reminding us to value uniquely human forms of knowing. -Guard Your Desire AI’s ability to simulate intimacy risks reshaping our longings, training us toward convenience over genuine relationship. -Follow the Incentives Behind every AI system are economic forces that prioritize engagement and profit, often at the expense of human flourishing. -Recover a Fuller Humanity Being human is more than intelligence—it includes embodiment, relationships, and moral responsibility that no machine can replicate. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 1 of The Human Cost of AI Join NSE+ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow @nosmallendeavor  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Matt Lee. What if flourishing isn’t something you achieve, but something you share? Sociologist and human flourishing scholar Matthew T. Lee reflects on his unlikely journey from studying homicide to exploring love as a social practice. Drawing on research, philosophy, and lived experience, he challenges individualistic definitions of success and offers a richer vision rooted in community, dialogue, and mutual care. He insists that all flourishing is mutual. Key Ideas: -Flourish Together or Not at All True human flourishing is mutual, it cannot exist at the expense of others or the world around us. -From Isolation to Interdependence His “forest” metaphor reveals that our lives are deeply interconnected, sharing resources and meaning beneath the surface. -Love as a Social Practice Flourishing grows through lived practices of love, not just ideas, especially in restorative justice and everyday relationships. -Rethink Success and Happiness The Global Flourishing study has found that material wealth and personal satisfaction alone are insufficient; flourishing includes virtue, relationships, and contribution to others. -Dialogue Over Monologue Transformation begins when we move beyond certainty and enter into genuine dialogue that reshapes how we see others and ourselves. -Build Small Communities of Hope Change doesn’t start at scale; it begins with small, intentional communities practicing a better way of being human. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Matt Lee ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is being an influencer on social media a calling? Can public-facing work align with a life of service? In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack a viral influencer video and explore what it means to have a dream, how it connects to vocation, and what it really means to make an impact in the world. Things we mentioned in this episode: NYT Cooking Black Sesame Rice Krispies Treats Dept. Q Paradise Cup of Tea by Kacey Musgraves Who is My Enemy by Lee C. Camp  The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton The Summer Day by Mary Oliver Markings by Dag Hammarskjold The Pretender by Jackson Browne Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if flourishing isn’t something you achieve, but something you share? Sociologist and human flourishing scholar Matthew T. Lee reflects on his unlikely journey from studying homicide to exploring love as a social practice. Drawing on research, philosophy, and lived experience, he challenges individualistic definitions of success and offers a richer vision rooted in community, dialogue, and mutual care. He insists that all flourishing is mutual. Key Ideas: -Flourish Together or Not at All True human flourishing is mutual, it cannot exist at the expense of others or the world around us. -From Isolation to Interdependence His “forest” metaphor reveals that our lives are deeply interconnected, sharing resources and meaning beneath the surface. -Love as a Social Practice Flourishing grows through lived practices of love, not just ideas, especially in restorative justice and everyday relationships. -Rethink Success and Happiness The Global Flourishing study has found that material wealth and personal satisfaction alone are insufficient; flourishing includes virtue, relationships, and contribution to others. -Dialogue Over Monologue Transformation begins when we move beyond certainty and enter into genuine dialogue that reshapes how we see others and ourselves. -Build Small Communities of Hope Change doesn’t start at scale; it begins with small, intentional communities practicing a better way of being human. ⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Matt Lee⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Laurie Santos. Many of us spend years chasing the things we believe will make us happy, success, recognition, the next promotion, the perfect relationship, only to discover they don’t satisfy the way we expected. Why are we so often wrong about what will make our lives better? Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos, creator of the most popular course in Yale’s history, Psychology and the Good Life, joins Lee C. Camp to explore the science of well-being. Drawing from decades of research in psychology and happiness science, Santos explains why our minds often “miswant” things we think will make us happy, but won’t actually do so. We cover how social comparison continually moves the goal post of our satisfaction and why practices like gratitude, social connection, and self-compassion actually do move the needle on well-being.  Key Ideas Correct Our “Miswanting” Humans consistently mispredict what will make them happy, often overvaluing achievements, money, or status while underestimating the power of relationships, gratitude, and meaningful activity. Practice the Bronze Mindset Happiness often depends on our reference point; learning to focus on what we have rather than what we narrowly missed can transform how we experience success and disappointment. Invest in Real Connection Genuine social interaction—from deep friendships to small conversations with strangers—remains one of the strongest predictors of long-term well-being. Embrace Negative Emotions as Signals Feelings like sadness, loneliness, or overwhelm are not failures of happiness but important psychological signals that guide us toward needed changes. Turn Knowledge Into Practice Knowing the science of happiness isn’t enough; lasting flourishing comes through habits—small, repeated behaviors like gratitude, rest, and time affluence. Take Baby Steps Toward Well-Being Even small practices—ten minutes of meditation, a gratitude journal entry, or a meaningful conversation—can gradually shift our lives toward greater happiness. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Laurie Santos⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Back by popular demand! Class is back in session this week as Lee and Savannah walk through Dispensationalism for Dummies, Christian Nationalism, and Just War Tradition in light of our current moment. So grab your notebooks and pens because you’re going to need them! What do you think? Do we need a part 3? Things we mentioned in this episode: Theo of Golden by Allen Levi Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser Man in the High Castle The Just War Tradition by Daniel Bell Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices