2Bobs—with David C. Baker and Blair Enns

Blair has been thinking about how, as AI continues to streamline more administrative tasks over time, we will be left to focus on the things we humans are good at – interacting with other humans. Because of this, the interesting people will win in selling their services and expertise.

"The Interesting People Will Win" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

"The Fertility Crash Will Make the World a Small Town" by Tyler Cowen for The Free Press

Jesse Ratner's March 27 LinkedIn Post about AI

We all know how valuable external input from trusted advisors can be for our business. But what does that look like for independent agencies who don't have investors to answer to?

"Do Independent Firms Need A Board?" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Categorizing AI-generated copy as "human vs AI" is not as binary as with AI-generated images or video. So Blair has developed an AI Contribution Scale to help us all be more transparent when using LLMs in the creation of written communication intended for prospects, clients, and peers.

[This episode's notes are AI-0]

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AI Contribution Scale

"The Coming Collapse of 'Thought Leadership'" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Curt Jaimungal's 5-minute YouTube video on why you shouldn't let AI write for you

In a recent article, David discloses the questions all creative agency principals need to answer whenever they are ready to find the right buyer and successfully navigate the merger and acquisition (M&A) process to complete the sale.

LINKS

"How Sellable Is Your Firm?" by David C. Baker for Punctuation.com

Blair and David are hearing all kinds of people talking about how their positioning needs adjustment because of AI. Blair does see an issue developing for many creative firms, but more with business strategy instead of positioning.

Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind and The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing by Al Ries and Jack Trout

Good Strategy / Bad Strategy by Richard Rumelt

Playing to Win by Roger L. Martin

The Lords of Strategy by Walter Kiechel, III

David recommends regular in-person company-wide gatherings for remote workers as an opportunity for creative agencies to help build their organization's culture in our post-pandemic economy where online video meetings continue to fill our calendars and working from home is the new norm.

LINKS

"Investing in Ee Retreats at Remote Firms" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair changes his mind on productized services. Again. And AI is the reason.

LINKS

"The New Age of Consulting" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

David shares a quick list of website elements he sees is missing from a lot of creative firms' websites which could help them attract more new business.

"13 Signals Your Website Might Send" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair shares what stuck in his mind about marketing success from listening to a recent podcast interview with Rory Sutherland on Liam Curley's Undisputed Authority.

"Embrace the Marketing Mess" article by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Rory Sutherland podcast interview on Liam Curley's Undisputed Authority

Which segments of our field will thrive in the near future and which ones will slowly lose relevance, and why? David wants creative entrepreneurs to continue being resilient and reinventing themselves every two years while keeping a watchful eye on constantly evolving industry practices and technologies (including AI).

"Most At-Risk Shops" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair sees creative entrepreneurs opening themselves up to pricing resentment from their clients when the value of their contributions diminishes over time, especially when they've created significant economic value at the beginning of a long-term engagement.

LINKS

"Is Your Pricing Creating Resentment?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Prompted by a recent trip to Europe, David considers how the differences between worker protection laws in Europe compared to North America affect starting and running an agency in this fast-changing global economy.

"Employment Law + Economic Flexibility" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

2Bobs in Tuscany

Join David, Blair, six other business owners and their spouses for four days and nights of creative business exploration in an intimate countryside villa designed for long meals, deep conversations, and unhurried thinking.

Learn more and apply at 2Bobs.com/events

Blair identifies three recurring categories of lost sales in creative firms and offers solutions to each. Fixing two of these patterns can reap the dividends immediately, and adjusting your sales approach for all three will pay off for years.

LINKS

"Three Patterns of Lost Opportunities" article by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Brigadoon.live

"Slapping Down Your Childlike Glee" 2Bobs episode

"Debriefing After a New Business Call" 2Bobs episode

"Assume an Advantaged Player" 2Bobs episode

"The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation" 2Bobs episode

David sees a lot of creative agencies making bad assumptions about their client relationships by not making the distinction between the reasons why clients come to them in the first place, why they choose to continue working with them as time passes, and then why they ultimately move on.

LINKS

"Distinguishing Between Why Clients Come, Stay, and Leave" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

"The Waterfall of Differentiation" 2Bobs episode

Blair is stunned that he still encounters so many advisory businesses like ad agencies, consulting firms, legal and accounting practices — large and small — that are still selling time. So he and David discuss what new revenue models should look like as we all adapt to how AI is changing our businesses.

"Time's Up, Babycakes" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Time's Up!: The Subscription Business Model for Professional Firms by Paul Dunn and Ronald J. Baker

The Automatic Customer: Creating a Subscription Business in Any Industry by John Warrillow

The Forever Transaction by Robbie Kellman Baxter

Subscribed: Why the Subscription Model Will Be Your Company's Future – and What to Do About It by Tien Tzuo and Gabe Weisert

Blair interviews David about a recent article he's been receiving a lot of feedback on, in which he lists all of the things he would try to incorporate into a brand new creative agency, based on what he's seen and learned from working with thousands of firms over the years.

"If I Started A New Firm, Now" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair differentiates between decoy pricing and price anchoring, which are two different techniques that are often confused for each other, and can increase your average proposal value in multi-option pricing when used appropriately.

"Decoy or Anchor?" article by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

"The Perils of 'Good/Better/Best' Pricing" 2Bobs episode

Despite the fact that many entrepreneurs hate people telling them what to do, they end up running their own agencies using a "central planning" model. Instead, David encourages entrepreneurial leaders to set clear standards, give staff more freedom, and institute kind accountability, for them and ourselves.

"Countering Your 'Central Planning' Tendencies" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he gives us methods to cope with our own natural emotional and physiological responses that can be triggered when unforeseen events unfold within sales conversations.

LINKS

"Can Improv and Cold Plunges Improve Your Sales?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Blair's interview on the Undisputed Authority podcast with Liam Curley

What Doesn't Kill Us by Scott Carney

Blair interviews David about a recent article in which he argues that the very traits that make entrepreneurs successful also make it hard for them to give up being their own boss and join someone else's company.

LINKS

"What Makes Entrepreneurs Unemployable" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he explores how our businesses are not simple machines that can be tuned (or killed) with specific wrenches, but they are complex adaptive organisms that we need to understand differently.

LINKS

"Your Business Is Not a Machine" by Blair Enns for winwitoutpitching.com

"Innofficiency in Your Agency" 2Bobs episode

"Grow or Die?" 2Bobs episode

David sees too many marketing agencies trying to attract new business by staking claims of specialness on things for which nobody is claiming the opposite, instead of building their positioning on uniquely defined expertise.

Are prospects not responding to your follow-up after you submit a proposal? Blair goes through what might be causing their lack of response and then provides three tools to address the ghosting problem.

"Ghosted. Now What?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

"The Power of a Metaphor" 2Bobs episode

Blair's annual 100 Day Sprint post on LinkedIn

One characteristic of our industry is disappearing moats. After a brief overview of the fourteen moats we've lost from 1965 to today, we'll look at what turf we really have left to defend and what the future will look like if we get this right. It'll be very different, and you'd better get ahead of it.

What do we do in those situations where we have to pitch? Blair simplifies some important principles from his books into a sequence of four precepts we can follow when the sales process doesn't progress like we'd hoped.

"The Only New Business Indicator That Matters" 2Bobs episode

"Assume an Advantaged Player" 2Bobs episode

"Slapping Down Your Childlike Glee" 2Bobs episode

If/when you sell your firm, it'll likely be the largest transaction of your life, and so it makes sense to understand it! In this episode David gives a crash course in everything earnouts.

LINKS

"Understanding Earnouts" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair recognizes growth opportunities in every area of life and business, yet sees many people chasing metrics while unknowingly resisting genuine progress for various reasons.

LINKS

"Chief Growth Officer" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

If you ever need to go to war over not being paid, David has some bombs you can lob over your enemy's front lines.

Blair interviews David on why dropping a client is sometimes necessary and how to best approach letting them go.

Where did the new client come from? Who gets credit? Should the new business person be involved in growing existing accounts? How should they, and/or the account people be compensated? Blair addresses all of these sales attribution questions.

You don't need a degree or license or permission to write a book. David and Blair share the steps they took and what they have learned from the writing process.

If you think you might have a book in you but aren't sure writing and publishing your own book as an entrepreneur is worth the effort, this episode is for you.

David has eight questions he wants agency principals to ask themselves before hiring him to help add a new partner.

Blair interviews David on his recent article in which he was very open and honest about his struggles with depression and anxiety.

LINKS

"I Struggle With Mental Health. Maybe You Do Too."

mentally-healthy.org

Mentally Healthy 2020 Results

For the last time—ever—David and Blair discuss client-side marketing departments, their struggle to be entrepreneurial and what we can learn from them.

Blair combines a few of the deeper topics he and David have already covered to provide a larger view of the overall pricing journey he recommends creative firms take.

In-house creative departments aren't going anywhere, so David wants agencies to be mindful of the unique value they bring to the projects for which their clients still need them.

David asks Blair some awkward questions to get inside his head about his successful book, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto.

Most of us haven't sold one firm that we've owned, and those principals who have formerly sold their firm aren't always...ahem...telling the truth.

In a nod to the Walt Whitman line, Blair believes successful sales people - as well as agency principals - often need to present themselves as different personalities in different situations. And David believes sales trainers are actually therapists.

As we've seen independent creative marketing and digital firms experience rapid growth over this past year, David offers five factors that principals should consider in order to avoid growing for the wrong reasons and/or mismanaging that growth.

Having a problem with either hearing or saying "no" can lead to problems for your business. Blair has 12 statements about the word "no" that can help.

When people from other industries learn about what goes on inside your firm, are they awe-struck in a good or bad way? Blair and David come up with a list of things that are unique to the creative firm biz and how they've seen outsiders react to them.

Blair shares an overview of all the communication tools creative firms should be using throughout the sales process.

David and Blair discuss what the four performance bands are, eleven critical factors that keep firms stuck at the lower performance bands, and what firms can do to move into a higher band.

David is in a cynical mood and takes turns with Blair sharing clichés they hear their clients use to describe their business.

Blair stops to think about what "agency" actually means, and if it's the right term to describe firms in the creative services space.

David lists eight truths about money that he's identified in his efforts to help entrepreneurs make better business decisions.

Blair addresses the internal struggle for margin that happens in many firms between delivery teams and business development teams due to their lack of distinction between cost and price.

David wants entrepreneurs to live with tension in various aspects of their business, using it to their advantage in making important decisions instead of just worrying about resolving the tension itself.

Blair offers some ways to help prevent over-excited new business people and principals from giving away the shop and appearing unprofessional.

David draws a picture for Blair about the implications of this statement he hears almost all of his clients and prospects say about being able to close new business.

Blair shares the tradeoffs creative firms have to deal with when pursuing firms of a particular size, and David gets Blair riled up again about procurement.

As agencies are trading their big city offices for working at home during the pandemic, Blair wants to know if David thinks he should get into real estate.

David thinks firms have too many meetings and offers some solutions, and Blair pushes back.

David torches Blair's highfalutin notions of timekeeping and offers four instances when timekeeping can actually be used without polluting your pricing.

David articulates five fears that tend to shape management style and impact decisions principals make for their firms.

In part two of their specialization conversation, David and Blair address six arguments they have heard from certain clients who toyed with the idea of broader positioning for their firms.

David and Blair have experienced a backlash against experts, expertise, and specialization thanks to David Epstein's book, and they disagree on whether or not it's worth reading.

Blair and David discuss three tiers of inbound and outbound marketing that firms should be using for new business development.

David and Blair address a listener request to go over the challenges that principals often go through once they decide to reposition their firm.

Blair wonders if he's made an error in his efforts to prevent agencies from going into presentation mode during the sales process.

Blair predicts when we are through the COVID-19 pandemic and business is approaching normal (whatever that means), agency principals will look back with some regrets about the things they did not do, rather than the things they did.

LINKS

"Four Regrets You're About to Have" by Blair Enns

"Play the Game of Constraints" by Blair Enns

Blair and David, as two white business leaders, try talking about the traumatic and emotional yet very necessary changes happening now to end systemic racism. As they listen and allow space for the voices of diversity that need to be heard, they also struggle with when to speak up as examples, owning up to their mistakes which will hopefully help lead the way for real change.

"How I'm Trying to Process Things Right Now" by David C. Baker

"Speech and Systems" - episode 186 of Exponent podcast

A Statement from the Founders of Monday Night Brewing

David is frequently surprised by how many new business people have trouble answering five particular important questions about their jobs and their firms.

Blair gets David to share a part of his upcoming book about how all client relationships have a cycle of love-hate-love that we have to be prepared for and push through.

David expects to get in trouble discussing Blair's topic about the role of friendship in business—between sales people and prospects, account people and clients, and principals and employees.

David and Blair try to predict the future about what principals of creative firms can expect in their relationships with clients as the COVID-19 pandemic continues to impact business.

Blair and David address five common questions they have heard from creative entrepreneurs as they both have been helping firms navigate the economic changes being caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.

Given where the economy is currently heading, David offers a framework that can help principals of creative firms make those tough staffing decisions in a timely and considerate manner.

David asks Blair to clarify his advice on offering proposal options and anchoring. Is it about more than just scope and price?

Implementing Value Pricing: A Radical Business Model for Professional Firms by Ronald Baker

The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing: A Guide to Growing More Profitably by Thomas T. Nagle and Georg Müller

Pricing with Confidence: 10 Ways to Stop Leaving Money on the Table by Reed Holden and Mark Burton

Negotiating with Backbone: Eight Sales Strategies to Defend Your Price and Value by Reed Holden

"6 Psychological Tactics Behind the Starbucks Menu" by Kent Hendricks

The Soul of Enterprise podcast, episode 233: "Pricing at Starbucks and Six Tactics You Should Know About"

Blair and David record a live episode at the Orpheum Theater in New Orleans for Bureau of Digital's Owner Summit.

Thank you to Carl Smith and Lori Averitt at Bureau of Digital for hosting the live recording at the Owner Summit on February 7, 2020 in New Orleans. And thank you to the amazing staff at the Orpheum Theater for helping us with the production and staging!

David does all the heavy lifting for Blair in his recent article so they can finally discuss the overlap between Agile as a management method and pricing policy.

"Pros and Cons of Agile…in the Real World" by David C. Baker

2Bobs episode 78: "Phase Your Client Engagements"

Manifesto for Agile Software Development

"Agile is Dead (Long Live Agility)" by Dave Thomas

Blair wants firms to get paid to write their proposals, which is the first of his four phases of client engagement.

"Different Pricing Models" - 2Bobs episode 61

"A Beginner's Guide to Negotiating" - 2Bobs episode 53

"Alternative Forms of Reassurance" - 2Bobs episode 46

Transcript

David keeps encountering clients who don't appreciate how their account people actually contribute to their overall business, and Blair totally identifies with the traits that David describes.

2Bobs episode 44: "The Best Ways to Disrespect Account People"

Pull necessary data from the client, even when it's tough to get their cooperation. Sell recommendations back to them that are in their best interest. Lead the client. (Interesting fact: "strategy" is latin for "general" in army who leads.) Protect margins. Grow the account. Send the client to hell...and help them enjoy the trip (e.g., change orders). Read social signals and intervene before catastrophe strikes. Manage an account review, disputes, mistakes, etc. Follow client contacts to their next job. Keep ear to the ground as agency innovates client offerings.

Blair and David share their frustrations around some contracts that they have been asked to sign, making it clear why they are not attorneys.

This episode does not contain legal advice. Get a lawyer for that:

Sharon Toerek

Candice Kersh

Jeffrey Dermer

Michael Lasky

David keeps seeing principals who get someone else to run their firm, which is not a good idea. Then he gets Blair's thoughts on why he thinks it happens.

David C. Baker Seminar

Win Without Pitching Workshops with Blair Enns

Built to Sell: Creating a Business That Can Thrive Without You by John Warrillow

Entrepreneurial Operating System Traction Library

The Outsiders: Eight Unconventional CEOs and Their Radically Rational Blueprint for Success by William Thorndike

David and Blair lay out some of the reasons why they think, in most cases, agencies pursuing recurring revenue models are making a mistake.

"Why Monthly Recurring Revenue (MRR) Arrangements May Not Be Ideal" by David C. Baker

The End of Average: How We Succeed in a World That Values Sameness by Todd Rose

Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour by Blair Enns

The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing by Marie Kondō

"Unbundling the Corporation" by John Hagel III and Marc Singer for Harvard Business Review

David brings up one of Blair's favorite topics: how they keep themselves and their clients from being trapped by requests for proposal.

2Bobs episode 70, "The Only New Business Indicator That Matters"

Blair and David share what they have learned as they have recorded 2Bobs podcast episodes for almost 4 years - what has worked well, what has been challenging, and what they would recommend to those agency principals who might be considering their own podcast.

LINKS

The Soul of Enterprise Episode 15: "The Best Learning Method Ever Devised: After Action Reviews" with Ron Baker and Ed Kless

Build a Better Agency with Drew McClellan

EconTalk with Russell Roberts

Marcus dePaula, podcast producer and consultant

BLAIR'S PODCASTING SETUP

DAVID'S PODCASTING SETUP

MARCUS' EQUIPMENT RECOMMENDATIONS

MARCUS' REMOTE RECORDING INSTRUCTIONS USING CLEANFEED.NET

Blair and David consider the hundreds of firms they have each worked with over the years to identify the characteristics of highest performing firms and what they have seen agency principals do to succeed.

Blair shares some new data (at the time he and David recorded this discussion in January of 2016) that points to the one variable that can predict the likelihood of a prospect hiring your firm.

David wants to know if Blair thinks it's harder for creative firms to find great prospective clients, or great employees, as they unpack how to attract the right candidates using a "lead generation" plan.

Blair is in the spotlight discussing some bad practices driven by assumptions he's seen his clients make over the past couple decades, a few of which are new to David.

10. Branding and Full Service Advertising are Specializations

9. The More You Have to Sell the More Likely a Sale

8. An Increase in Meetings Leads to an Increase in Sales

7. The Written Proposal is a Necessary Step in the Sales Process

6. Build Personal Relationships to Build Sales

5. Presentation Skills Training Leads to Improved Business Development Success

4. Chemistry Wins New Business

3. Selling is Persuading

2. It's Everyone's Job to Sell

1. You Have to Pitch (for Free) to Win a Creative Assignment

Original article by Blair Enns, "Top Ten New Business Development Myths"

The Challenger Sale by Neil Rackham

Contagious Culture: Show Up, Set the Tone, and Intentionally Create an Organization that Thrives by Anese Cavanaugh

Blair interviews David about six employee archetypes which can end up being big hiring mistakes for creative firms.

Blair has another podcast therapy session about "good clients vs. bad clients," as David tries to help him see procurement people as actual human beings who sometimes are just overwhelmed.

Blair has an aversion to the topic of personal branding, so David offers examples of why, when, and how the personal brands he's seen principals develop can be either helpful or harmful for their firms.

LINKS

"Launch Your Career as a Podcast Guest" by David C. Baker

Episode 1 of Dexter Guff is Smarter Than You: "You Don't Exist Without a Personal Brand"

The Visible Expert® by Hinge Marketing

"Personal Branding for Creative Professionals" course by Dorie Clark

Blair and David explore the differences they see between consultants and agencies in an effort to understand how the landscape is changing and what creative firms can do to beat consultants at their own game.

Links

The Business of Expertise: How Entrepreneurial Experts Convert Insight to Impact + Wealth by David C. Baker

Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life by Rory Sutherland

David admits to making a mistake, as Blair finishes his discussion from a couple episodes back on the eighth pricing model, which he claims "is the highest expression of entrepreneurship there is."

2Bobs episode 61 - "Different Pricing Models"

Prohibition Gin and Toolbox Design

Cup & Leaf

"Unbundling the Corporation" by John Hagel III and Marc Singer for the Harvard Business Review

The Futur and Chris Do of Blind™

Conscious Minds

David and Blair address the obsession that many principals have with the size of firms, and the advantages of being either big or small.

Blair is struck by how creative businesses have trouble applying their creativity to their revenue models, so he and David discuss some of the best ways firms can get paid.

Subscribed: Why the Subscription Model Will Be Your Company's Future - and What to Do About It by Tien Tzuo

The Membership Economy: Find Your Super Users, Master the Forever Transaction, and Build Recurring Revenue by Robbie Kellman Baxter

The Automatic Customer: Creating a Subscription Business in Any Industry by John Warrillow

2Bobs Episode 31: "Mastering the Value Conversation"

2Bobs Episode 25: "Pricing Creativity"

Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour by Blair Enns

David and Blair each share their own perspectives on how chasing comfort has kept them and their clients making the right decisions in both management and sales situations.

LINKS

2Bobs Episode 2: Say What You Think

The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation by Matthew Dixon

Blair wants creative firms to quit viewing in-house resources as the enemy and demonstrates how the arrangements between the two can be mutually beneficial.

2Bobs Episode 2: Say What You Think

2Bobs Episode 57: There are NOT Seven Reasons Why Clients Hire You

David and Blair each share a list of things that they wish agency principals would do more of to take their firms to the next level of success.

Links

"The Problem of Standards" by David Maister 2001

Blair and David work on clarifying things by coming up with only six reasons why businesses hire creative firms.

Blair and David share the places they find good ideas that they turn into content, the best of which end up being incorporated into their services.

Read the transcript ➝

David finds Blair's thoughts fascinating on how far agencies should service or pursue clients geographically, and whether or not the location of a firm should be a factor.

David gives Blair four practical reasons for sales people to hand off new business to the account person before the deal is closed instead of after.