The Westminster Tradition

We talk with Eleanor Williams from the Australian Centre for Evaluation about making evaluation fast, rigorous, and genuinely useful for public service decisions. We move from a 40,000-person employment services RCT to the practical steps that make testing possible, then unpack why transparency and mixed methods matter when the stakes are high. Along the way we discuss: turning a mutual obligation debate into a 'fact question' through a large three-arm randomised controlled trialwhy a n...

Three-quarters of government evaluations are commissioned to improve implementation. Two-thirds are commissioned for accountability. They're not the same thing, and building a system that serves both turns out to be harder than it looks. This episode is about the structural tension between backward-looking accountability — did we deliver what we promised? — and the forward-looking question of whether we're actually learning anything useful. Caroline argues the current measurement architecture...

Budget season is here — and it’s tighter than many public servants have been used to. Across Australian jurisdictions, governments are landing budgets with real constraints: restrained spending, savings packages, efficiency dividends, and the ever-popular one-in-two-out hiring freeze. In this episode, Caroline, Alison and Danielle get into what that actually means for the people who have to keep delivering. How do you lead a team through savings without poisoning the culture? What’s the diffe...

In 1997, Tony Blair’s government inherited a problem: tuberculosis in cattle was rising, farmers were furious, and nobody agreed on whether badgers were responsible. The solution was to commission a gold-standard randomised control trial — 30 sites across the southwest of England, three conditions, run by an independent scientific group. Proper science. No cutting corners. Eleven years and £49 million later, the trial produced findings that made things more complicated, not less. Reactive cu...

Inspired by the new podcast The Curiosity Shop, Alison, Danielle and Caroline take on the things they might never agree on — welcome to TWT Fight Club. In the ring: Do academic and conceptual frameworks actually help public servants do their jobs, or are they a privilege that most people simply don't have time for?Central agencies: great idea, but are they delivering? The trio debates whether they're connectors and coordinators — or arrogant secret-keepers who love a template.Deli...

A new hypothetical scenario, this time from the big smoosh of middle management. Imagine if... your Minister has announced a 15-day processing target, your team is already drowning, there's no cutting corners, and there's no extra resourcing. In this episode, Alison, Danielle and Caroline unpack the impossible balancing act of middle management in high-pressure public sector environments: communicating risk upward without sounding obstructive, keeping teams together during the crunch, a...

How public can public servants be in the social media age? Is having a LinkedIn account a professional necessity, or a professional risk? In this episode, Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the history, rules and realities of what public servants can say, post, share and support publicly. From LinkedIn humblebrags and anonymous Twitter accounts, to global political conflicts, the conversation explores how Westminster principles of neutrality collide with modern digital life. Mentioned in th...

In her first interview since the release of the NACC’s report into Robodebt, Deputy Commissioner Kylie Kilgour joins us to unpack her findings and what it all means for the public service. This is a rare chance to go beyond the written report with candid reflections on the conditions that led to one of most significant failures of public administration in Australia, and the complexities of the accountability process. In this episode, we cover: the four key contributing factors to seriou...

On 11 March, the National Anti-Corruption Commission released its findings on Robodebt. It found that two of the six referred public servants engaged in serious corrupt conduct, and four did not. Caroline, Alison and Danielle discuss three things: the "low level" code of conduct failures that created the toxic soil in which corrupt conduct could grow; the detail of the NACC's findings on the Robodebt Six; and the harder, unresolved question of whether individual accountability processes...

In our last episode on Mad Cow Disease, we take our final lessons from the public servicing of this massive health, agricultural and economic crisis. With the benefit of hindsight, we weigh the significant market interventions and public perception against actual transmission data. In this episode: What decision making looks like under radical uncertainty, where its government's job to keep things running.The massive supply chain repercussions of the beef ban, and how much experti...

It’s March 1996 and the UK Government announces that mad cow disease has been linked to human cases. Within days beef consumption falls by half, public confidence is non-existent, and ministers begin meeting in chaotic quasi-cabinet groups sometimes twice a day. In this episode we discuss: How to brief best in the chaos of things changing by the hour Whether policy should change when the risk hasn't changed, but risk perception has. The policy process where decisions are not weighed...

Few people come to policy officer positions with specific policy training. They might be teachers, lawyers, front-line workers or subject-matter experts. Who teaches us how to do policy work, and what policy actually is? Enter Salli Cohen’s brilliant new book, 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer.' In this episode we catch up with Salli about: Her one-word definition of policy.What it takes to be a genuinely good policy officer, beyond technical competence.The difference bet...

Part 2 of 4 on Mad Cow Disease: In this episode, the cracks in enforcement are showing, panic is slowly boiling, and the science is catching up. What we cover: The panic spike when BSE appears in domestic catsThe danger of stopping at the legislation, without interrogating whether industry is complying and how you would know.The reassurance cycle – shock, anxiety, reassurance, repeat, and whether the Government could or should have said more. The political landsc...

We kick off a new series on 'Mad Cow Disease', or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), and what it teaches us about governing when the science is uncertain, the consequences are enormous, but the risks are very remote. Why BSE became a lasting symbol of government failure and secrecy, even though major inquiries later found decisions were largely science led. Where to draw the line for regulatory settings with big market consequences. Who really decides when portfolios collide, ...

We want to make lasting and meaningful change, but how do we get there? In this special episode Caroline interviews Frances Foster-Thorpe and Jason Tabarias about their insights into the skills and frameworks needed to tackle large, complex and ambitious reform. We cover: Biting off what you can chew by picking two of three factors: volume, cost, qualityExamples of big Australian reforms that did and didn't hit the markLining up stakeholder expectations, the authorising environment, and...

Buy a sports car or start a podcast. It all could have gone the way of a new hobby, with audio kit languishing in a drawer. Instead, this podcast has become a study and celebration of the tricky craft of public service, and it's a source of pure joy for us. Reflecting on three years of TWT: Humble and haphazard beginningsWhat’s changed since the Robodebt Royal Commission Our favourite interviews, scandals, episodesLifting the veil on moments of chaosOur favourite moments with...

In this Christmas special, Caroline, Alison and Danielle unwrap the public service’s most gear-grinding buzzwords, what they’re supposed to mean and what they have now quietly become. With words crowdsourced from the fine listeners of TWT, we talk: Big serious words and how their technical meanings have driftedThe corporate visitors who arrived and never leftWords that hide fear or indecision How co-design can be a handbrake, and why government struggles to set boundaries on what is genu...

Your shiny new promotion turns out to be more than you bargained for. In this scenario-based "Imagine if..." episode, Caroline and Danielle assume the role of a newly promoted manager who steps into a team they didn’t choose and some character-building challenges. ⚠️ Mild trigger warning for the depiction of toxic colleagues - we've all had one! We cover: Walking the floor and gathering intelHow to give the boss response to a credibility challengeClarifying the authorising e...

When politics meets process, what’s a conscientious public servant to do? This “Imagine if…” episode puts Alison and Danielle in the shoes of a project manager caught between legality, leadership and media heat — and explores what good judgment looks like when everyone’s waiting to be told what’s important. The first in an “Imagine if…” series as requested by listeners — exploring the messy, real-world dilemmas of public administration. We cover: · Managing up and whether ...

Demos has released a fascinating paper, The Human Handbrake, on the five human habits that stall public sector reform. In this episode we pick through each of them - fear, heroics, tribes, tidiness, and tempo - and test practical fixes from risk stratification to outcome-focused equity. Topics covered include: fear-driven risk culture and how to stratify risksafe-to-fail spaces vs non-negotiable protectionspolicy hero incentives vs long-term stewardshiprecruitment, merit, and better reference...

In our second change management episode, Danielle pulls apart the myth of the “minor” restructure and lay out a practical way to change without breaking the work. From function mapping and ministerial comms to union engagement and the “fourth trimester”, we consider how to make change stick with clarity and care. why six to nine months is realistic for restructuresfunction before form and mapping real workaligning vision to delivery using bottom‑up designministers and boards as informed stake...

Danielle takes us on a romp through change management, starting, as with all good contrarians, with a challenge to the idea of ‘change management’ itself. Some of the ideas covered: Change is happening all the time in government, not just during formal "change management" periodsMost people dislike uncertainty rather than change itselfMission and values-driven staff struggle most with macro changes that shift agency directionMedium-level changes (like new systems) are often underestimat...

Our first live show at the wildly successful ANZSOG NRCOP Conference in Brisbane August 2025. The conversation tackles head-on the structural disconnections between our regulatory and policy systems, particularly in federated models like early childhood education. How do we reconcile a Commonwealth pouring billions into subsidies while state-based quality regulators remain chronically underfunded? What happens when funding accessibility doesn't come with proportionate strengthening of quality...

What makes someone qualified to be a minister? In this candid conversation with Tom Koutsantonis, South Australia's longest-serving current parliamentarian, Danielle explores the fascinating intersection where political leadership meets public administration. Drawing on his remarkable career spanning multiple portfolios including Treasury, Energy, and Transport, Koutsantonis takes us behind the curtain of ministerial decision-making. He dispels the myth that ministers need specialised experti...

In this episode, Danielle, Caroline and Alison look at ANOTHER big ICT transformation project, with enormous human impacts and a long and expensive clean up. The Queensland Health payroll system failure ranks as one of Australia's worst public administration disasters, costing taxpayers $1.2 billion and leaving 78,000 healthcare workers without proper pay. What began as a $98 million routine upgrade became a case study in governance failure, mismanaged procurement, and the dangers...

In this episode, we dive into Danielle’s favourite topic - work place flexibility. Public servants working from home has become a visible fault line in Australian politics and media, revealing deeper questions about productivity, surveillance, and trust in our workplaces. The convenience culture debate exposes how work design impacts everything from gender equity to regional development. Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the following: That COVID forced rapid technology deployment and show...

What if the real problem in public service reform isn't what we're trying to do, but how we're trying to do it? Caroline, Danielle, and Alison dive deep into a revolutionary approach to government change by examining The Radical How – a framework published by UK innovation foundation Nesta. The conversation unpacks three core principles that could transform public service: start small and test assumptions early rather than pretending to know all answers upfront;build genuinely multidisciplina...

Tom Loosemore of Public Digital was instrumental in the capital R Reset of Universal Credit. In this interview, he tells Caroline there were no beanbags, but a lot of multi-D. This interview adds nuance and richness to the picture sketched in our previous Universal Credit episodes. Some of the key insights include: Fundamental problem of the original approach was thinking of Universal Credit as a technology challenge rather than a complex policy, operational, and design challengeThe first pha...

In this second episode on Universal Credit, we talk about how the team transitioned from catastrophic failure to remarkable success. We cover: The barriers to test and learn - from the need for certainty by leaders, to Treasury requirements for business cases, to the need to support MinistersThe lessons learnt by the 10 year in role SRO Neil Couling [sorry CCB called you Neil Coulson!!] - including ‘avoid the tyranny of the timetable’Whether test and learn will be something younger generation...

In the shadow of worries about the NDIS, do we even believe that big system reform in Australia is do-able any more? Is the juice worth the squeeze? In this first of a two part series, we explore the example of Universal Credit, a 15 year long reform agenda in the UK to combine 6 benefits into one, and, more importantly, seeking to transform the relationship of the citizen to work and welfare. In this episode we unpick how it goes from an idea that is incorporated into the UK Coalition ...

In a wide ranging discussion, Alison, Caroline and Danielle come together to discuss the gems from the Amanda Vanstone interview, which examined how power, responsibility and decision-making played out at the top of government during her two decades as a federal minister. Vanstone's approach to being a minister - asking questions until understanding, visiting programs unannounced, and taking full responsibility for decisions - offers deep insights. We also canvas some less expected topics, in...

Former Senator Amanda Vanstone offers a masterclass in ministerial leadership, delivering sharp insights from her 21-year political career that are as relevant today as they were during her time in Prime Minister Howard's Cabinet. Cutting through bureaucratic excuses with remarkable clarity, she reveals how effective ministers must take full responsibility while developing practical strategies to uncover what's really happening within their departments. Vanstone's approach to ministerial over...

Efficiency is in the news ... but what does it mean? How should public servants work on improving efficiency? Should we be focused on system reform, ending whole entitlements, or nibbling at the edges? How to know what kind of budget savings task you are in - deep restructuring or a cyclical contraction / expansion?Is front line v back office a helpful distinction?When are external reviews helpful, and when do they hurt?What is the role of tech in delivering savings?Referenced in the episode ...

Surfing a wave of listener feelings about this topic, Danielle takes us through the experience of public service recruitment from the other side. Danielle and Alison argue about the merits of requiring 'in house' recruitment before externally advertising positionsThe role that conservative (perhaps inexpert??) local budget management plays in driving a cycle of vacancies and short term contractsHow complex recruitment processes make the public service less and less like the public we serveEzr...

In honour of forthcoming Victorian and NSW elections, we are republishing this episode during our late winter hiatus. Enjoy!! **** The starter's gun has gone on Australia's national elections for 2025 and Parliament has been prorogued. In this episode, former head of Cabinet Office and keeper of the Caretaker Conventions, Alison answers Caroline and Danielle's increasingly pointed questions, and we end with arguing about the importance of formatting. Stay tuned to the end for some fabulous in...

Drawing on overwhelming feedback from our listeners, in this episode we unpack the experience of being recruited into the public sector (or ghosted along the way). Danielle takes us through What goes in Role Descriptions (hint: it shouldn't be slabs of legislation)The madness of defined requirements like 'driving' and 'interstate travel' (and whether Caroline's sister can really change a tyre)Alison's idea of an X factor style button for use in interviews when it's immediately clear thi...

How did the abuse at Oakden remain hidden for so long? And what finally brought it to light? In this episode we discuss: why families might not complainhow small, isolated outposts can hide terrible thingsthe importance of following up on things that don’t feel quite right.Intro grab from the RN Background Briefing episode A Failure to Care: The Oakden Nursing Home, featuring Lorraine Baff, whose father was a patient at Oakden. You can find the full ICAC Report into Oakden here, and the...

In light of this week's decision that the NACC will pursue investigations into six public officials, we thought we would repost this episode from December 2024 explaining why the NACC's original decision to take no further action needed to be revisited, with a little explainer up front on the latest news. You can find out more about the NACC's announcement on 18th February 2025 here. In this episode, we talk about where things are at, managing conflicts of interest, and whether corruption alw...

For over a decade, the state government vacillated about whether or not to privatise the Oakden Older Persons Mental Health Facility. Once the 2007 accreditation crisis had passed, however, it never reached the top of the ‘to do’ list. Meanwhile, investment in facilities and staffing were endlessly postponed pending a decision. In this episode, we discuss: the dangers of decay while waiting for strategic directionswhether an organisation is ever really too broke to buy a $15 piece of eq...

We return for 2025 with a series on the Oakden Older Persons Mental Health Facility, an SA Government run facility whose scandalous conditions and institutionalised elder abuse were exposed in 2017, prompting (among other things) a Commonwealth Royal Commission. In this episode, we unpack a missed opportunity in 2007 to move Oakden from a mid-twentieth century asylum to a modern aged care facility, when the facility failed Commonwealth accreditation standards. Why is it so easy for exec...

What do Secretaries really think when junior staff ask for career advice? Why are silos so impermeable? And should Christmas really be cancelled? Join Danielle and Caroline as they take Mike through listener questions. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we defin...

Mike Kaiser, recently departed head of the Queensland Public Service, joins us to chat about the interface between political offices and the public service, lessons from robodebt, why delivery is everything in government and the secret of leadership. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy fu...

Danielle unpacks the recently released APS State of the Service, with a look over our should at where we’ve come from - from the 1976 Coombs Royal Commission on Australian Government Administration, to the 2019 Thodey Review of the APS. How are women, First Nations and people with disability going in the APS? What about class? This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic di...

Keeping track of the National Anti-Corruption Commission and Robodebt is tricky - first there's no investigation, then there's some kind of review, then there's a search for an eminent person.... In this episode, we talk about where things are at, managing conflicts of interest, and whether corruption always involves brown paper bags. For Rick Morton's reporting on this: Eight minutes outside: how the NACC failed on robodebtNACC dumped Gleeson over concerns for CoalitionNACC integrity offic...

Post Office’s internal inquiries never got to the bottom of the situation. Here we unpack how to choose an investigator, getting the information to the person, and what do with a report. Opening grab from Sir Anthony Hooper, independent chair of Horizon mediation scheme. Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Paula Vennels, former Post Office Limited Chief Executive. Subsequent grab Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land...

Post Office leadership commissioned at least 6 different investigations of varying degrees of independence and rigor into complaints about Horizon after 2010. And yet none of them got to the truth. In the next two episodes, we unpack what not to do when setting up inquiries and investigations. Opening grab from Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair. Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair. Final grab from Mr Beer KC and ...

Another great round of questions, thanks! This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right. Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail...

Thanks for the questions folks! This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right. Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com. Tha...

The Australian Public Service Commission has released the findings of its Centralised Code of Conduct Inquiry into Robodebt. Outro grab from The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 10. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all...

In this episode, we look at why Post Office kept prosecuting Sub Post Masters through the lens of Dan Davies' analysis in his new book The Unaccountability Machine. Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Alisdair Cameron, CFO and former interim CE of Post Office Ltd. Subsequent grab from Mr Blake KC (Counsel Assisting) and Graham Brander, former Post Office Investigator. Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Anne Chambers, former Fujitsu Engineer Third Line Support. Final grab...

A massive power imbalance, everyone doing the narrowest version of their jobs, and an overriding culture that assumed postmasters were thieves. These are just some of the ways Post Office ended up prosecuting postmasters for shortfalls that existed only on the computer. Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Rob Wilson, former Head of the Royal Mail Group Criminal Law Team. Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Helen Rose, former Post Office / Royal Mail Group Auditor. Final gr...

In this episode, former state Minister for Health and the Arts (among others) the Hon John Hill, shares his insights into what Ministers want - and what they need - from the public service. You can buy his book ‘On being a Minister’ here - and if you’re brave, share with your Minister! This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to be as tho...

In this second interview with former Commonwealth Secretary and Australian Public Service Commissioner Andrew Podger AO, Danielle gets to chat about The pros and cons of bringing all service delivery together in a single agency The valuing of operational expertise v policy leadershipThe role of portfolio budget practices in driving RobodebtCultures of challenge and diversity of thoughtThe future of public service reform.References in the episode 2019 Thodey Review of Australian Public ...

With a decade as a Commonwealth Secretary, and two more as Australian Public Service Commissioner, it is no surprise Robodebt Royal Commissioner Holmes turned to Andrew Podger AO for expert advice on the operation of the public service. In this episode, Danielle talks to Andrew about the impact that granting tenure could have on the quality of advice, the increasing use of labour hire in the public service, and the importance of senior executives having read the legislation. Also referenced...

What does the community want more - every last transgressor to be punished, or government to keep out of their business? How can regulators keep pace with changing community expectations about what is ‘appropriate’ - and, indeed, what is a workplace? What is a regulator to do when you’re facing these issues in the full glare of media scrutiny? In this final episode of the Essendon mini-series, we think about what this footy doping scandal can tell us about the challenges of being a modern ...

In episode two of this mini-series, we pick up the story of the Essendon supplements scandal from the perspective of the investigators. In this story we hear how ASADA ends up in the middle of a media fire storm, with inadequate regulatory powers and biopharmaceutical technology racing ahead. But is it really a matter for ASADA at all? Is this an anti-doping violation, or a WHS breach? And why do Cronulla players end up suspended for six matches, while Essendon players get two years? Intro...

You might like to get in the mood for AFL footy finals by revisiting this first episode of our three part series on the Essendon Footy club drug scandal! Meanwhile we will keep enjoying our late winter / early spring hiatus 😇 **** “Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015. In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons f...

In the second of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon dives deep on her commitment to training Centrelink staff, including the establishment of an in-house Registered Training Organisation (RTO). This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we de...

In the first of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon returns to share her thoughts on the dangers for Senior Executives who outsource considerations of legality to the lawyers. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guar...

Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later. We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout. Finally, Danielle proposes an end to end definition of efficiency, that captures costs we move to other parts of government, or end up paying later on....

If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides. In the final episode of our first (but not last!) mini-series on the Post Office scandal, we examine how the Post Office 'forgot' what it knew about Horizon's unreliability, and then r...

Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own. In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going. We also have strong feelings about the idea of 'minimum viable products' where the delivery of social services - and the founding of prosecuti...

Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place? And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.) In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elaborately structured, too clever by half Private Finance Initiative (PFI). Among other things, we talk abo...

Season 2 kicks off with a deeper look at the British Post Office fiasco. Gaslighting critics, false confessions, aggressive litigation tactics, challenges with redress, and no accountability from senior leaders - sound familiar? Nick Wallis BBC4 podcast The Great Post Office TrialAlison's recommended listening re psychological safety, Adam Grant's Think AgainOn the 'objective review' conducted by the Post Office in 2010 to make the strongest case as to why Horizon should be trusted, see, Nic...

In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission. Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same. She also takes us through her career, from being the only social worker in Wagga Wagga through to leading the establishment of Centrelink. Along the way, she covers the difference between being a 'cust...

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question. Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away. The discussion covers - capturing the right data, and sharing it routinely and publicly - risk as a frame for empowering people t...

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview, Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt. *This was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.* Some references from the interview include: Frank Kafka Before the LawPamela Herd and Donald Moynihan Administrative Burden: Policymaking by other means (2019)Homi Bhabha The Other Question: Stereoty...

In this episode, Danielle and Alison bring the conflict on their views of behavioural insights. Danielle thinks it's a revelation that government started thinking about its customers and what works for them. Alison thinks it's oversold, and not always deployed in the interests of the people. Caroline wonders if we can all just get along. Ultimately, the listeners win. References from the episode include: If Books Could Kill podcast on NudgeRichard Thaler and Cass Sunstein Nudge: Improving d...

Christmas leave plays an outsize role in Robodebt. Danielle takes us through some of the questions raised about Christmas leave, including who holds the can when people are on leave, and how 'hovering' while you're on leave can confuse and disempower. She also makes a case that government should never, ever shut down over Christmas, because our work never ends. Meanwhile, Alison gives another excellent life hack - this time about taking work emails off your phone on leave. As promised in ...

In September 2014, at the very moment DHS invents Robodebt, the APS receives a frank assessment of its limitations in the form of the Final Report Home Insulation Program Royal Commission. In this episode, a review of the 'pink batts' Royal Commission report shows the key failings that recur. Why is it so hard as a public servant to say 'we can't do this in the time allowed?' How should generalists respond when asked to engage in technical subject matter that we don't understand? And once...

In our final episode on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt, we tackle the implications of algorithms being commercial in confidence property of third party providers, legacy ICT systems, plus recognise we need to lean in to understanding AI and how it works. We do a second mini-dive into the Great British Post Office scandal - this time into the systemic racism that underpinned its operation. We finish up by thinking about how AI black box decision making may interact with a historic...

How will automation impact the ability of people to seek review of administrative decisions by government agencies? In this episode, we talk about the human bias toward thinking computers are right, and take a brief digression into another public service scandal - The Great Post Office Trial - where discrepancies on a computer screen were used as proof to send people to jail. You can find Alison's homework reading by former Chief Justice French here. This podcast was record...

The first of a number of episodes on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt. This episode focuses on big data in government - what we know about it, the ways in which data can be hard to use, and the supreme importance of context. Danielle talks about disappearing from a government system, and Alison gives an important life hack to all double-barrelled surname holders. You can find a link to the Professor Darren O’Donovan article mentioned up front here. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna lan...

Why can it be hard to hear whistleblowers in big organisations? Caroline takes us through Kathryn Campbell's response to whistleblowers that come in via the media and come in via the union, and thinks there's something in that. Alison thinks it's a failure of change management - but is stuck on finding words to describe that aren't "waffle cloud". Danielle finally gets to ask 'what would Colleen do?' - but we all agree it takes a person of rare temperament to be as graceful as Colleen T...

In this special episode, Caroline and Danielle unpack their feelings about the Royal Commission Report, five days after its release. We also pick through some of the Commissioner's key findings, as they relate to things discussed in previous episodes. If you are new to the podcast, we suggest you start at the beginning and come to this after you've listened for a bit. You can find Rick Morton's podcast here, and his books On Money and 100 Years of Dirt. Intro grab features Ms Colleen Ta...

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the many different ways in which lawyers in the Commonwealth Government knew that Robodebt was illegal well before the Federal Court settlement in late 2019. You might not remember who wrote the constitutional law text book, but you would remember going to a conference where an eminent KC dismantles your program point by point. Danielle's deep loathing of ritual data collection proves sensible when we discuss the work that DHS lawyers did in ...

In this episode, Caroline takes us through how DHS responds in early 2017 when things start hitting the fan. Aggressive defence is the name of game in the media, while in the background frantic efforts are made to improve 'the customer interface'. We talk about how DHS backed themselves into a corner, and despite a lot of senior attention to solve problems, never picked up the rock to check what was underneath. We also talk about how hard it is to fix something while it's operating. W...

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the reaction of DSS in early 2017, when it becomes clear DHS hadn't abided by the agreement they thought they had to kill Robodebt. However, far from handing DHS over to the Ombudsman, DSS engage in a process that looks like ‘a conspiracy to conceal stuff up’, in the inimitable words of Commissioner Holmes. We discuss how hard it is to check in on the work of other agencies, the unlikely role of Christmas, and the awful impulse to keep ...

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the tick-tock of how, in late January and early February 2015, DSS went from having legal advice that said Robodebt was unlawful, to waving it through the Budget process. We discuss how something that is 'not consistent with legislation' is actually 'illegal', and the impacts of softening language on the bowels of ministers. Alison gives us a primer on the Columbia Effect, and how the over-simplification of technical detail led to a disastrous outc...

In the second episode of two episodes exploring the culture in DHS and how it contributed to Robodebt, Danielle takes us through the pressures being experienced on the frontline in Centrelink. From the rise of employee engagement surveys, the use of temporary labour hire, to the decline of unions, this episode explores the importance (and challenge) of knowing what's going on the frontlines. You can find the Centrelink culture review we discussed here. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna...

The first of two episodes looking at the role the culture of DHS played in enabling Robodebt to get off the ground, and keep moving, in spite of all the red flags. In this episode, Danielle talks us through the ways in which Secretary Kathryn Campbell and her leadership team set the tone, and the efforts of later leaders like Renee Leon to fix the culture. We discuss our own experiences of trying to improve the culture of teams, and how hard you have to work to make safe spaces. This podc...

Where did Robodebt come from? In this episode, we track the genesis of Robodebt in the heart of the compliance division in the Department of Human Services in late 2014. This is a cautionary tale about a bright idea that gets fast tracked by senior leadership, who have their own reasons for taking it forward, and aren't very interested in whether what they’re pushing will actually work. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always wa...

An explainer episode on what Robodebt is, how it unfolded, and why public servants should be interested in finding out more. Far from a political conspiracy, the Robodebt Royal Commission has shown that it was a creature of the public service. Join Alison, Danielle and Caroline, as they reflect on the lessons of Robodebt through the lens of their public service careers. Credit to Rick Morton for the incisive way he explains Robodebt, which we have cribbed in this episode. You can read ...