The CLO Investor Podcast

In this episode of the CLO Investor Podcast, Shiloh Bates sits down with Sam Garza, Portfolio Manager at DoubleLine, to discuss the evolving CLO market. They explore why CLO debt continues to offer attractive relative value, the challenges facing CLO equity investors, the rise of captive CLO equity funds, and the difference between broadly syndicated and private credit CLOs. The conversation also covers software loan exposure, the impact of AI on credit markets, higher-for-longer interest rates, and proposed rating agency changes that could reshape CLO structures and investor protections.

David Altenhofen, Head of Credit Management at Accunia Credit Management, joins The CLO Investor podcast to compare the US and European CLO markets, digging into topics like manager selection and alpha, CLO equity's recent struggles, software loan exposure, and a rare European CLO single-B default.

Laila Kollmorgen, Global Head of CLO Tranche Investing at MetLife Investment Management, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss her investment approach across the CLO capital structure and the products her team manages. Laila shares why she currently sees compelling opportunities in CLO equity, junior BBBs, and AAAs, while offering insights on software credit risk, AI disruption, private credit, and the evolving outlook for leveraged loans and CLOs.

Cyrus Moshiri, Head of Structured Credit at New Mountain Capital, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss how New Mountain is differentiated from other private credit businesses, if private credit is as attractive as it used to be, the risk in software industry loans, and loan default rates in general.

Chris York, Partner at SLR Capital, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss the evolving landscape for BDCs and private credit, including public BDC discounts, software loan risk, tender activity, and where risk‑adjusted opportunities remain as the cycle matures.

Drew Sweeney, Co-Head of Global Credit of TCW, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss loans to software businesses at a time when AI-displacement risk is elevated. We discuss the question of if declining software valuations and cash flows will be severe enough to impair first lien loans.

John Kim, CEO and Co-Founder of Reckoner Capital, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss the launch of innovative CLO ETFs, including leveraged and reinvesting structures. The conversation also covers broader trends in the CLO market, risk considerations, and how institutional and retail investors may think about CLO debt today.

Serhan Secman, Global Head of CLOs at Napier Park, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss the CLO investing business, inefficiencies in the market and the three factors that negatively effected CLO equity in 2025.

Shiloh Bates, the Chief Investment Officer of Flat Rock Global, provides a concise recap of the 2025 CLO market. This episode breaks down record issuance, strong CLO debt performance, and the headwinds that weighed on CLO equity.

Brad Larson, Head of US Global Credit Financing at CIBC, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss the opportunity he saw in CLOs in 2010, what creates a good CLO banking team, and why CLOs are easier to create today vs. a decade ago.

Greg Borenstein, Portfolio Manager of Ellington Credit Company, ticker: EARN, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss EARN's conversion from a morgage REIT, the backdrop for CLO equity and mezzanine, and why CLO equity captive funds are negative for the CLO market.

Mike Hatley, Senior Advisor at Rothschild & Co., joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss a brief history of CLOs and various downturns in the loan market.

Sean Griffin, CEO at the LSTA, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss regulatory wins that the LSTA has had and what key issues they are focused on today.

Jonathan Horowitz, Partner & Head of Structured Liabilities at Fortress Investment Group, joins the CLO Investor Podcast to discuss the pros and cons of using bank leverage vs. CLOs, credit trends in broadly syndicated and private credit loans, and the lack of new issue loan supply in general.

Alex Navin, Managing Director, Performance Trust Capital Partners, LLC, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss the year for CLO equity on multiple fronts: leveraged loan defaults, spread compressions, potential Fed Rate cuts, and the growth in CLO debt EFTs.

Melissa Brady, Senior Director at Alvarez & Marsal, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss the performance of private credit loans, why some credit managers may have different marks than others, and other trends in private credit.

Amir Vardi, Head of Structured Credit at UBS Asset Management, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss CLO market inefficiencies, CLO debt versus CLO equity, CLO modeling assumptions, and the economics of CLOs managed by newer market participants.

Brian Nolan, Head of European CLO Structuring at PGIM, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss European CLOs and how they differ from US CLOs.

Shiloh Bates and Himani Trivedi discuss the effects of tariffs on the loan market, CLO equity projected returns, and new funds being launched on the Nuveen platform.

In this episode of The CLO Investor Podcast, Stephanie Setyadi, a Partner at Ivy Hill Asset Management, provides two case studies for the types of businesses that can be found in CLOs.

Shiloh Bates talks to Pratik Gupta, CLO Head of Research for Bank of America Securities, about CLO securities' performance versus that of corporate debt, CLOs backed by syndicated loans and private credit CLOs, and more in this episode of The CLO Investor podcast.

Host Shiloh Bates discusses commercial real estate (CRE) CLOs with Mike Comparato, Head of Real Estate at Benefit Street Partners. CRE CLOs are contrasted with the more common CLOs backed by corporate loans that are Flat Rock's specialty.

Shiloh Bates talks to Chris Gilbert, the Head CLO Banker at Natixis. Natixis a leading underwriter of broadly syndicated and middle market CLOs. It was also the first bank to issue a reinvesting CLO after the financial crisis. Chris helped Shiloh with the book he published on CLO investing in 2023, CLO Investing with an Emphasis on CLO Equity and BB Notes.

Shiloh Bates talks to the Bank of Montreal's Head of CLO Trading, Bilal Nasir. In this episode, Bilal uses the term "risk profiles" to describe the different characteristics of various CLO investment opportunities. If you've ever wondered about the ins and outs of CLO trading, this is the episode for you.

Lauren Basmadjian, Carlyle's Global Head of Liquid Credit, joins The CLO Investor podcast to discuss rate cuts, her outlook for CLO spreads, loan default and recoveries, and how she thinks about investing in CLOs managed by other managers.

Shiloh Bates talks to Stephen Anderberg, the sector lead for U.S. CLOs at Standard and Poor's Global Ratings, about how CLOs are rated, trends in upgrades and downgrades and defaults. They also discuss how the September 18, 2024, interest rate cut may move the market. And they talk about how CLO ratings have performed relative to the more well-known corporate rating system. For a full transcript, or to learn more about Flat Rock Global, please visit flatrockglobal.com.

Shiloh Bates talks to Ted Goldthorpe, Head of Credit at BC Partners, about the lessons learned in his very impressive financial career. While most asset managers grow their business by launching new funds, Ted is also active in acquiring other asset managers. In this episode, Shiloh and Ted discuss the evolving landscape of private credit and business development companies.

Shiloh Bates speaks with John Timperio, the Co-Head of Dechert's Global Finance practice, about CLO regulation in this episode of The CLO Investor podcast.

Shiloh Bates talks to Allan Schmitt, Head CLO banker at Wells Fargo, about rated feeders, a new flavor of CLO (collateralized loan obligation) that is growing in popularity.

In this episode of The CLO Investor Podcast, Shiloh Bates talks to Drew Sweeney, Broadly Syndicated CLO Portfolio Manager at TCW. The episode reviews complexities of loan documentation, the role of private equity firms, and the importance of thorough analysis and strategic management in the loan market.

Shiloh Bates welcomes John Kerschner, Head of U.S. Securitized Products and a Portfolio Manager for JAAA at Janus Henderson, to the podcast. John explains the relative attractiveness of CLO AAAs versus other asset classes; how his team chooses CLO AAAs; and if he thinks the market should expect continued CLO tightening.

In this episode of the CLO Investor podcast, host Shiloh Bates interviews Patrick Wolfe, Senior Portfolio Manager in the Global Credit Platform and Head of U.S. Middle Market CLOs at BlackRock. They discuss the current state of the middle market loans and the risks for CLO investors in today's economy. Patrick explains the differences between middle market loans and broadly syndicated loans, highlighting the need for origination and underwriting in the middle market. He also describes the competition for middle market loans and the importance of reputation and industry specialization in transactions. Other topics include the impact of higher interest rates on borrowers; the potential for increased M&A activity in the middle market; and the importance of valuations and need for standardization in the industry.

Shiloh Bates talks to Nomura Securities CLO Researcher Paul Nikodem in the sixth episode of The CLO Investor podcast. They discuss the process of evaluating CLO managers and also tackle the topic of declining CLO financing costs.

Shiloh Bates shares his conversation with Tom Davidson, Managing Editor of Creditflux, in the fifth episode of The CLO Investor.Among other topics, Shiloh talks to Tom about CLO education, current opportunities in the CLO market, and CLO equity risk adjusted returns.

In the fourth episode of The CLO Investor, Flat Rock Global CIO Shiloh Bates discusses credit investing, loan recoveries, and the path to building a successful management platform with Ivo Turkedjiev, a broadly syndicated CLO manager at New Mountain Capital.

In the third episode of The CLO Investor, Flat Rock Global CIO Shiloh Bates talks to Scotia Bank's David Williams, a prominent CLO (collateralized loan obligation) banker. Shiloh and David discuss CLO issuance, refis and resets, profitability, and opportunities and challenges in today's CLO Market.

In the second episode of The CLO Investor, Flat Rock Global CIO Shiloh Bates discusses the CLO (collateralized loan obligation) market, CLO issuance, refis/resets, and more with colleague Derek Russo.

What is a CLO (Collateralized Loan Obligation)? What are the different types of CLOs? Why is the CLO market important today? Shiloh Bates is author of CLO Investing with an Emphasis on CLO Equity and BB Notes, and Chief Investment Officer of Flat Rock Global. In this first episode of The CLO Investor, Shiloh provides a primer on CLOs and CLO investing.