The Trial of Lucy Letby

Could Lucy Letby have been stopped sooner? Could babies have been saved? Was there an orchestrated hospital cover up? Were parents consistently lied to? Did a toxic hospital culture allow a serial killer to remain undetected for months? 

Today Lady Justice Thirlwall is likely to answer these questions and more when she publishes her long-awaited report into the failings at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

In this bonus episode Caroline and Liz dissect the key moments from the seven month inquiry as they prepare to read her findings.

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In today’s episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence for the first time from the two most senior managers at the Countess of Chester Hospital. Ian Harvey and Tony Chambers have never spoken before but they appeared before Lady Justice Thirlwall. They apologised to the families of the babies who were killed and harmed by Lucy Letby for not communicating with the parents properly and they were challenged on why they were slow to act and slow to accept what the consultants were telling them.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from some of the senior managers from the Countess of Chester Hospital. It's the first time we've heard from them, and all accepted mistakes had been made in the way the concerns about Lucy Letby had been dealt with.  But Tony Chambers, the Chief Executive, was reluctant to accept any personal failings, and Alison Kelly, the Director of Nursing, blamed others for the fact she was slow to respond to an email about a spike in baby deaths and a link to Lucy Letby. The Director of People, Sue Hodkinson said she should never have told Lucy Letby she would soon be back on the ward. We also heard that Lucy Letby's father, John, wanted the consultants to be sacked.

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A big week at the Thirlwall Inquiry as the managers get their chance to speak and to answer the criticisms that they were too slow to act to stop Lucy Letby. First up is Alison Kelly, The Director of Nursing. We’ll be bringing you extra episodes all week this week to reflect what’s happening here in Liverpool.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence of former Detective Chief Superintendent Nigel Wenham, the police officer who was instrumental in launching the police investigation into Lucy Letby’s crimes.

They also hear from one of the key doctors in the case - Dr Stephen Brearey - the lead consultant on the neo-natal unit. He apologised to the families of the babies murdered and harmed by Lucy Letby, saying he tried to do his best to protect their children but admitted his best was not good enough.

He said the pressures of his day job in the NHS meant he was too busy to properly review cases of babies who collapsed and died and he failed to spot she was harming patients sooner.

He also revealed that he now believes Lucy Letby had killed other children on his unit for some time before she killed Baby A - the first of seven babies she was convicted of murdering - in June 2015.

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In this bonus update the Head of the Neo-Natal Unit Dr Stephen Brearey told parents he was sorry his actions had not been enough to stop their children being harmed and killed. He also accused Lucy Letby of harming babies BEFORE she killed Baby A in June 2015. And he admitted he and others missed opportunities which could have stopped her.

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In the first episode of The Trial Update Caroline and Liz have a snapshot of the evidence of Dr Ravi Jayaram as he appeared before the Thirlwall inquiry.

He said sorry, and said he wishes now he'd been stronger and braver and spoken up sooner about Lucy Letby.

He also said senior managers would not take the consultants' concerns seriously and he now reflected it had been like being in an abusive relationship.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from Dr Ravi Jayaram. He accepted that he should have done more sooner to stop Lucy Letby from harming babies. He said he should have been braver and more courageous in speaking up, but he said his concerns initially seemed "outlandish".

He also told the Thirlwall Inquiry that after Lucy Letby was eventually moved off the ward she told him she'd be back "whether he liked it or not."

And he said the recommendations from the inquiry into Beverley Allitt's crimes should be embedded in all medical safeguarding training.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss the evidence of the union rep who became close friends with Lucy Letby. Hayley Griffiths exchanged jokey and inappropriate texts with her about ‘tips’ on how to get away with murder and told her they would be ‘friends forever.’

They also hear evidence about Lucy Letby’s employment grievance and how rumours were flying around the hospital that a consultant made a pass at her and that she was the victim of a witch hunt.

And they bring you a statement from her parents who said they were left shocked and heartbroken by the sickening allegations made against their daughter.

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The Thirlwall Inquiry is having a week off so it's a good time for Caroline and Liz to chat to lawyer and expert Elkan Ambrahamson about what difference, if any, public inquires really make in changing things for the future.

They also have more details about Lucy Letby's latest appeal which was thrown out last week by three judges - signalling the end of the road for her, unless her lawyer can find new evidence to put before the Criminal Cases Review Commission. 

Welcome to Episode 11: Will it make a Difference?

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In this episode we hear from the nursing manager who got ‘too close’ to Lucy Letby, sending her chummy messages telling her to ‘hang on in there, girl,’ after police were called in. Karen Rees said she felt ‘bullied’ by a consultant when he called her at home to demand Lucy Letby was

removed from the ward, after she murdered two triplet brothers in quick succession. He claimed to have a ‘drawer of doom’ about Lucy Letby but senior nurses believed she was being made a scapegoat for poor medical care. Mrs Rees also revealed she later begged hospital bosses to call in the police so they could get some answers. We also hear from the lead risk midwife, Annemarie Lawrence, who said relationships between the doctors and the nurses on the

neo-natal unit had broken down by the time she started work at the hospital. She also said Lucy Letby’s redeployment into the Risk and Patient Safety Department was inappropriate because it meant she could look at patient’s notes and critical reports which linked her to the babies’ deaths.

Welcome to Episode 10: Drawer of Doom

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Caroline and Liz are back with the latest from The Thirlwall Inquiry which is continuing to investigate how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

In this episode we learn more about Letby’s character and behaviour from her fellow nurses working closely with her on the neonatal unit. We are told she initially failed her final year placement as her mentor felt she lacked the requisite professionalism and empathy for a children’s nursing role. We then hear from the manager of the neonatal unit for the first time. Eirian Powell supported Lucy Letby, even when she had been moved off frontline nursing because of the doctors’ concerns. She said she couldn’t believe she had done anything wrong.

We are also given examples of some of the serious mistakes Letby made that were flagged by her colleagues and how eventually enough evidence amassed that she was involved in the collapse of multiple babies that her position on the unit became ‘untenable’.

Welcome to Episode 9: The Favourite

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Caroline and Liz are back with the latest from The Thirlwall Inquiry which is continuing to investigate how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

In this episode we hear from Doctor U, the married doctor who prosecutors at Lucy Letby's trial described as her boyfriend and who she denied having an affair with. 

He tells the inquiry he didn’t suspect her of causing harm and actively encouraged her to gain more work and valuable experiences at another hospital - even after suspicions were raised and she was suspended from working with patients at the Countess of Chester. He now says he feels manipulated.

We also hear Lucy Letby’s own thoughts via an email and letter she sent to her fellow nurses and the consultants who blamed her for the babies deaths. She claims she is totally innocent and requests her colleagues be ‘sensitive’ and supportive’ of her when she returns to the neo-natal unit.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from some of the doctors who worked on the ward with Lucy Letby. They all told the inquiry the numbers of babies collapsing and dying caused staff to think the unthinkable - that a member of staff was harming babies. 

Once they did raise concerns with managers they were wrongly told a review had cleared Lucy Letby and they were ordered to write her a letter of apology. 

We also heard this week that that senior nurses told the consultants they were incorrect about their suspicions, and, months after she was removed from the ward, they invited Lucy Letby to the staff Christmas party.

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Caroline and Liz are back with the latest from The Thirlwall Inquiry which is continuing to investigate how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

In this episode we hear the testimony from 8 parents who had babies on the neonatal unit. The same themes recur again and again. We hear how the families’ search for answers fell upon deaf ears. Many describe their regret at putting their trust in the hospital and its staff. They detail the hospital’s failure to disclose information they say was crucial in preventing more babies from being harmed and how, in some circumstances, this non-disclosure amounted to lies and concealment. We also learn more about the implied relationship Lucy Letby had with a married doctor that may point to a motive for the harm she caused.

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Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

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Join Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull as they cover the latest evidence from the Thirlwall Inquiry, which is examining how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder whilst working at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

In this episode we recount the experiences of the parents of five babies who were killed or harmed by the neonatal nurse through their first-hand testimony. We hear how they came to question her actions and behaviour, and learn more about how and when, they say the hospital fell short in safeguarding the children in its care.

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In this episode we hear evidence from two mothers whose babies were murdered by Lucy Letby on the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital. 

They detail a lack of disclosure and poor communication from the hospital. They confirm the consequences of the hospital managers’ delay in contacting the police and the lack of accountability felt at the time and ever since. Their distressing and emotive testimony lays bare how responsible many of the parents feel the Countess was in allowing Letby to harm their newborns and the devastating impact this has had on their lives.

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We are now at the end of the first week of the Thirlwall Inquiry set up to establish how Lucy Letby was able to get away with murdering babies on an NHS hospital ward for so long.

Already, damaging testimony has been delivered about how multiple attempts to raise the alarm went unheeded, and delays in calling in the police cost babies' lives. Why were managers slow to act? What action could or should the hospital have taken? And what urgently needs to change within our healthcare system to stop something similar ever happening again?

Join Caroline and Liz as they bring you the very latest. 

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Following the trial and conviction of neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, The Thirlwall Inquiry has been set up to examine the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital that surrounded the murder and attempted murder of multiple babies. It began today, Tuesday 10th September 2024, at Liverpool Town Hall. In this episode Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull discuss the very first day of the hearing as the opening statements by chair, Lady Justice Thirlwall and counsel to the Inquiry, Rachel Langdale KC, are delivered to an emotionally charged chamber.

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As it’s revealed Lucy Letby has changed her legal team this special episode takes a look at what is causing rampant speculation amongst both experts and the general public that Lucy Letby’s conviction could have been ‘unsafe’. We speak to Professor Jane Hutton, who signed a letter calling for an extension to the scope of the Inquiry as she questions the statistical evidence that was provided in court.

Liz and Caroline then go onto discuss Letby’s legal position with Tim Owen, KC, a barrister with a wealth of experience in returning cases to appeal. He offers a frank and precise analysis of the very limited options left open to the former nurse and her legal team.

We then look ahead to the Inquiry—which commences on Tuesday 10th September—and the three key findings it will aim to establish.

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In this episode Liz and Caroline speak to Danny Bogado, the director of a new Channel 4 documentary called Conviction: The Lucy Letby Case. They discuss why he wanted to make a film on the case, how he recruited contributors and why he feels it is important that audiences make up their own minds about her guilt or innocence.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz sit down with the man at the centre of the chatter about the safety of Lucy Letby’s convictions - the man who was never called to give evidence in her trial. In this interview Dr Mike Hall questions the justice system, if jury trials are always the best way to try complex cases and his concerns about the tactics of Lucy Letby’s new barrister Mark MacDonald. 

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In this episode Caroline and Liz have the latest on Lucy Letby’s defence case after her barrister Mark McDonald hand delivered the evidence which he says proves her convictions are unsafe, to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. So we sent Liz to have a chat with him.  

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In this update Caroline and Liz have the final day of the inquiry. Lady Justice Thirlwall rejected the application made yesterday to pause the inquiry and said she hoped her final report would be ready by November.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss the closing statements of the families of the babies and the senior executives of the Countess of Chester Hospital. We’ve got details of the executives’ application to pause the inquiry amid claims that ‘new’ evidence could render Lucy Letby’s convictions unsafe.

And the response of the families, who argue it is simply a cynical ploy by a manipulative serial killer to control the narrative and an attempt by senior managers to avoid criticism.

We also bring you the pleas of the mums and dads in this case, who say the NHS must make changes and formally regulate senior executives to stop a similar tragedy ever happening again.

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In this episode of the Trial Update, Caroline and Liz have the assurance the Heath Secretary Wes Streeting has given to the inquiry that what happened at the Countess of Chester Hospital should never happen anywhere else. The inquiry was also told that the Department for Health were “deeply troubled” by the way the doctors were treated by senior managers. And the hospital has now accepted for the first time that Lucy Letby should have been suspended in October 2015, before she attacked seven more babies. 

Plus we’ve got the details of two applications to pause the Thirlwall inquiry - one from Lucy Letby herself, and one from the hospital’s senior managers.

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In this emergency episode Caroline and Liz have the breaking news that detectives are now investigating certain members of staff who worked at the hospital at the time Lucy Letby was killing and harming babies. Cheshire Police have confirmed their investigation into Corporate Manslaughter, which focused on the hospital, has now been upgraded to Gross Negligence Manslaughter. That means they are now investigating individual members of staff to see whether what they did – or didn’t do - amounted to a crime. 

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In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss this week’s press conference by Lucy Letby’s defence team. They go over the findings of the expert panel, who now say she isn't guilty of any murders, and compare it to the evidence scrutinised at her two trials.

They also speak to Lord Ken Macdonald KC, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, who gives his take on the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Lucy Letby’s chances of a new appeal.

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Caroline and Liz run through the evidence of the final week of witnesses, including that of Jane Tomkinson, the current chief executive of the Countess of Chester Hospital.

She tells the inquiry that things have significantly changed in the nine years since Lucy Letby murdered babies on the neo-natal unit and that senior managers are more open and better at listening to staff than before.

We also hear from an expert statistician and Cambridge academic Sir Professor David Spiegelhalter, who explains that while the 2015 spike in deaths was unusual for the Countess, it wasn’t particularly rare from a national perspective and other units had similar neo-natal mortality rates.

Caroline and Liz also talk to journalist David James Smith about Lucy Letby’s chances of securing a new appeal, and his time as a commissioner on the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

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Caroline and Liz are back with the first week of evidence from the Inquiry of the New Year. They explain the testimony of MP Jeremy Hunt, who was Health Secretary, when Lucy Letby murdered and harmed babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, in 2015 and 2016.

He apologised to the families and said he took ultimate responsibility for a failure to implement recommendations from previous NHS inquiries, which may have helped catch Lucy Letby sooner.

He talks about how it took 20 years to install independent medical examiners in hospitals and said that if one had been in post when Lucy Letby was working it might have made a difference.

Caroline and Liz also talk to barrister Tim Owen about the extraordinary press conference held by Lucy Letby’s new barrister shortly before Christmas and what this means for her attempts to overturn her convictions.

And they also discuss a speech made by MP David Davis in the House of Commons this week when he used Parliamentary privilege to call for a retrial.

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In this final episode before The Inquiry takes a break for Christmas, Caroline and Liz explain the evidence of Nicholas Rheinberg, the Senior Coroner for Cheshire. He said he was ‘horribly disappointed’ at being kept in the dark about the consultants’ concerns about Lucy Letby and horrified that the paediatricians allowed him to carry out an inquest into the death of Baby A without telling him the real reason for how they believed the baby boy died.

We also hear from Sir Rob Behrens, the former Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. He gave evidence on the culture of the NHS and described why scandals involving patient deaths keep occurring. He said there is a small pool of individuals that run NHS hospitals who are like ‘The Magic Circle.’ He said these individuals need to be subject to regulation, like doctors and nurses, to stop the ‘revolving door’ of failing bosses moving from hospital to hospital without any detriment to their careers. 

Sir Rob also criticised the public inquiry system itself and called for the Government to set up a new body to make sure their reports and recommendations are not simply shelved, but acted upon in the future.

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Hosts: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Producer: Chelsey Ranore

Creative director: Caroline Cheetham

Executive Producer: Jamie East

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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In this week’s episode, Caroline and Liz bring the evidence of Sir Duncan Nichol, the hospital’s board chairman. He was also the head of the NHS when nurse Beverley Allitt murdered children at a hospital in Grantham. He tells the inquiry it was a ‘serious failure’ by the Countess of Chester Hospital not to tell the families of the babies harmed what was going on and he apologised for not keeping their children safe.

We also hear how the coroner was also kept in the dark about the spike in deaths and that a nurse was suspected of killing babies. Assistant Coroner Alan Moore said senior managers kept back vital information which would have prompted the police to be called.

And we hear from other non-executive board directors who describe how tension and conflict between the paediatricians and senior managers affected their response to the crisis.

The Trial of Lucy Letby is part of the Crime Desk. Press here to subscribe today for ad-free listening, full access to all our shows, early access to new shows, and bonus episodes.

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Hosts: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Producer: Chelsey Ranore

Creative director: Caroline Cheetham

Executive Producer: Jamie East

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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Caroline and Liz have another update from the Thirlwall Inquiry where the Medical Director Ian Harvey was accused of “fobbing off” the mother of one of the babies who was killed by Lucy Letby. He also denied withholding evidence from the coroner. But he admitted not commissioning a forensic review of the deaths which may have uncovered a crime sooner was a missed opportunity.

The Trial of Lucy Letby is part of the Crime Desk. Press here to subscribe today for ad-free listening, full access to all our shows, early access to new shows, and bonus episodes.

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Hosts: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

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Executive Producer: Jamie East

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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In the first episode of The Trial of Lucy Letby, Caroline and Liz go over the background of the case that has captured attention around the world. We’ll hear how the jury was told that staff at the Countess of Chester Hospital grew suspicious of the nurse in 2015, following an unexplained rise in the deaths and serious collapses of babies in the neonatal unit.

To unlock the full series, you’ll need to subscribe. You can try it free for 7 days at thecrimedesk.com And if you use the code REDDIT, you’ll get a special price of just £1.99 a month. 

Follow us on Instagram @TheTrialPod.

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Click here to sign up for The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world.

It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world.

Hosts: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Producer: Chelsey Ranore

Creative director: Caroline Cheetham

Executive Producer: Jamie East

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information

Learn more about your ad choices. Visitpodcastchoices.com/adchoices

Follow us at @thetrialpod

Email us at info@thecrimedesk.com

Leave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')

A Daily Mail Production.

Seriously Popular.

Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter.

It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.