Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

What If the Real Antidepressant Is You? The placebo effect is powerful—and why that truth matters more than you think.

Hosts:Kevin Cornelius, LMFTDr. David Burns

What if one of the most widely accepted ideas in mental health isn't true?

In this fascinating episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius discuss David's recent Psychology Today article, "What If the Real Antidepressant Is You? The Placebo Effect Is Powerful—and Why That Truth Matters More Than You Think." Together they explore decades of research on antidepressants, the surprising power of the placebo effect, and why giving yourself credit for your own recovery may be one of the most important—and hopeful—ideas in psychology.

Whether you're taking antidepressants, considering them, or simply curious about the science of depression and recovery, this conversation will challenge assumptions, answer difficult questions with compassion, and leave you with a new perspective on where healing really comes from.

Can a sugar pill relieve depression?

The answer, surprisingly, is yes.

But what if that isn't the most interesting question?

In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius discuss David's recent Psychology Today article, "What If the Real Antidepressant Is You? The Placebo Effect Is Powerful—and Why That Truth Matters More Than You Think." Together they examine decades of research, clinical experience, and one of the biggest controversies in psychiatry: Do antidepressant medications work because of their chemistry—or because of the hope and expectation they inspire?

David explains why his own experience treating thousands of patients led him to question the effectiveness of antidepressant medications long before large-scale analyses reached similar conclusions. He shares the story of discovering research comparing antidepressants with placebos, and why those findings changed the way he thought about depression treatment forever.

The conversation then takes an unexpected turn as David tells a memorable story about a fictional "miracle drug" named Placebo. Through this thought experiment, he explains why the placebo effect is often misunderstood—and why recovering on a placebo doesn't mean someone is "faking it." Instead, David argues that people may be activating their own remarkable capacity for healing through hope, expectation, and changes in the way they think.

Kevin raises thoughtful questions that many listeners may be asking:

David also discusses new research from the Feeling Great app suggesting that while expectancy contributes to improvement, TEAM-CBT techniques appear to have measurable therapeutic effects above and beyond placebo alone.

The discussion also explores:

Toward the end of the episode, Kevin asks David what gives him hope after more than five decades of clinical work. David shares exciting early findings from ongoing research on the Feeling Great app, reflects on the future of TEAM-CBT, and closes with an encouraging message for anyone who believes they're hopeless: in his experience, hopelessness itself is almost always the illness speaking—not reality.

Whether you're curious about antidepressants, fascinated by the placebo effect, or simply looking for hope in your own recovery, this episode will challenge assumptions and invite you to think differently about where healing really comes from.

We'd love to hear from you!

Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.

Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Ask David: Friendship, Rejection, and Anxiety About Sleep

Hosts:Kevin Cornelius, LMFTDr. David BurnsGuest: Dr. Matt May

In this Ask David episode of the Feeling Good Podcast, David Burns, Dr. Matt May, and Kevin Cornelius tackle two listener questions: one about the painful experience of feeling that your efforts at friendship aren't being reciprocated, and another about anxiety-induced insomnia.

The conversation explores a common theme underlying both problems: our suffering often comes not only from what happens, but from the thoughts and assumptions we make about what happens.

Brittany writes about a recurring pattern in her relationships. She is usually the one who reaches out, initiates conversations, and tries to build friendships, but she doesn't feel that others make the same effort. She wonders: "What am I doing wrong?"

Kevin suggests an important alternative: perhaps she isn't doing anything wrong at all.

There may be many explanations for another person's lack of reciprocity. They may be busy, uncomfortable making new friends, or simply not interested in the same kind of relationship. Most importantly, we aren't the right friend for everybody—and everybody isn't the right friend for us.

David introduces the TEAM-CBT technique of Reattribution, encouraging Brittany to consider explanations other than the automatic conclusion that something is wrong with her.

The group then explores Changing the Focus, one of the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Rather than silently wondering what another person is thinking, Brittany could directly—and respectfully—acknowledge the tension and ask the other person how they experience the relationship.

But saying something this vulnerable can feel risky. What if the other person really does reject us?

David, Matt, and Kevin explore this fear through a Feared Fantasy role-play, imagining some of the harshest things another person might say. The goal isn't to create a perfect response; it is to discover that even rejection can be faced, accepted, and explored with curiosity.

The role-play produces one of the episode's central insights: accepting another person's criticism or rejection can sometimes be much more powerful than trying to defend ourselves against it.

The second listener, writing from China, describes three months of anxiety and insomnia. They desperately want to get eight hours of sleep, but the fear of not sleeping creates tension that makes falling asleep even harder. Then, when they realize they haven't slept well, the panic starts all over again.

David immediately points to the value of a Daily Mood Log. Rather than guessing what is causing the anxiety, he recommends identifying the specific negative thoughts, emotions, and belief ratings connected to the insomnia.

Matt suggests using the What-If Technique to uncover the fear underneath the anxiety:

What are you afraid will happen if you don't get enough sleep?

Perhaps the fear is that you won't be able to function, that something terrible will happen, or that you will lose control. Once the underlying fear is identified, it can become something that can actually be examined and challenged.

Kevin also challenges the assumption that everyone needs exactly eight hours of sleep to be healthy. The discussion emphasizes that anxiety about the need to sleep can itself make sleep more difficult.

David summarizes the idea bluntly: the problem may not be insomnia itself, but the distorted thoughts about insomnia. The "shoulds"—I should be sleeping; I have to get eight hours—can turn a bad night of sleep into a major emotional crisis.

The group also discusses behavioral approaches to insomnia, including sleep restriction, getting out of bed rather than lying awake and frustrated, and paying attention to factors such as caffeine and sleep habits.

Important: The discussion of alprazolam, Tylenol, and other sleep-related medications reflects comments made during the podcast and should not be interpreted as individualized medical advice. Medication decisions should be discussed with a qualified medical professional.

The episode ends with two intriguing questions for future episodes. Kevin raises the difficult question of what to say when someone believes an antidepressant has "changed their life," while Matt introduces a question about the possible impact of social media on mood and relationships.

As David points out, the social-media question raises an important distinction between a compelling hypothesis and something that has actually been demonstrated through research. The conversation returns to a broader TEAM-CBT theme: vulnerability and openly sharing our feelings may be important ingredients in developing deeper, more loving relationships—whether online or face-to-face.

We'd love to hear from you!Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.comKevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Ask David: Grief, Love and Letting Go

Hosts:Kevin Cornelius, LMFTDr. David BurnsGuest: Dr. Matt May

In this Ask David episode of The Feeling Good Podcast, David Burns, Kevin Cornelius, and Matt May explore three emotionally difficult situations: watching a child struggle and desperately wanting to help, grieving the loss of someone you love, and trying to pursue a romantic relationship with someone who has clearly said no.

The common thread? Our suffering often increases when we try to control something—or someone—that we cannot control.

The episode begins with a parent asking how to help a daughter who is having a difficult time. David offers a counterintuitive suggestion: sometimes the best way to help is to stop trying to help.

Rather than pushing advice, solutions, or therapy, parents can learn to listen with genuine empathy. David recommends learning the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, which can help parents create an environment where their children feel understood and are more willing to talk.

David also emphasizes an important principle from his own clinical practice: he doesn't try to help people against their will. Unless a child is very young, the person receiving therapy needs to want the help and ask for it.

Matt adds another important dimension: parents and therapists may experience guilt, frustration, anger, or self-blame when they can't make someone else better. Those feelings don't mean you're a bad parent or therapist. They may simply reflect how deeply you care.

The second question comes from someone grieving the death of a spouse and wondering whether intense misery and despair are signs of unhealthy grief—and how long healthy grief is supposed to last.

The discussion offers an important distinction:

Healthy grief can be extremely painful.

Sadness itself isn't necessarily something that needs to be "fixed." If the painful thoughts are accurate—"I'll never see my spouse again" or "I miss the person I loved"—then the appropriate response may be empathy rather than cognitive restructuring.

But grief can become complicated by distorted thoughts, such as:

These thoughts can add guilt, shame, anger, and hopelessness to the natural pain of loss.

David also challenges the idea that there is a prescribed timetable for grief. There is no universal schedule that says when someone "should" be finished grieving. Trying to force yourself to recover according to an arbitrary timeline may simply create another layer of suffering.

Instead, David encourages listeners to lean into grief rather than judge it. Deep grief can be understood as an expression of deep love.

The final question comes from Ahmed, who became interested in a divorced woman, expressed his desire for marriage very early, and continued pursuing her even after she made it clear that she wasn't interested.

The discussion explores the difference between genuine connection and emotional pursuit.

Matt identifies several thoughts that can fuel what he calls a "love addiction," including:

"I can't be happy without this person."

Or the belief that if you're sincere, thoughtful, and persistent enough, you can eventually convince someone to love you.

David and Kevin challenge that idea. If someone has clearly communicated that they aren't interested, continuing to pursue them isn't likely to create attraction. Instead, it may be a sign that you're avoiding the pain of acceptance and letting go.

David shares personal stories about learning to overcome his own fear of rejection, including deliberately seeking out rejection so that it would no longer have the power to frighten him.

The ultimate goal isn't to convince one particular person to love you. It's to become comfortable enough with yourself that you don't need any particular person to make you happy.

As Kevin puts it, there is something much more appealing about someone who is already enjoying their life and invites another person to join them than someone who is essentially saying, "Please be with me so that I can be happy."

When someone you love is suffering, your instinct may be to push harder. But sometimes the most helpful thing you can do is listen, empathize, and give the other person the freedom to choose whether they want help.

Not every painful emotion is a symptom that needs to be eliminated. When someone's sadness is based on reality, especially after a profound loss, compassion and empathy may be the most appropriate response.

The distinction between healthy and unhealthy grief isn't simply how intensely someone feels. Ask what thoughts are creating the emotional pain. Accurate thoughts may call for empathy; distorted thoughts may provide an opportunity for cognitive change.

Grief isn't a race. Trying to determine how long you "should" grieve can create additional pressure and self-criticism.

Thoughts such as "I should have known" or "I should have done more" can turn natural sadness into guilt and self-blame.

Sincerity, persistence, and good intentions don't create attraction when the other person has already said no. Sometimes the healthiest response is to accept the rejection and let go.

One of the central lessons from David's book Intimate Connections is that healthy relationships become easier when you aren't dependent on another person for your happiness.

Fear of rejection can keep people attached to unavailable partners. Learning to tolerate rejection—and even deliberately practicing it—can dramatically reduce its emotional power.

Whether you're trying to force a child into therapy, force yourself to stop grieving, or force someone to love you, the attempt to control the uncontrollable can keep you stuck. Acceptance creates room for genuine connection and change.

David recommends several previous Feeling Good Podcast episodes and books during the discussion, including:

The episode ultimately offers a compassionate message: you can care deeply without trying to control, grieve deeply without judging yourself, and love someone without needing them to love you back.

We'd love to hear from you!Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.comKevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Episode 519: What Therapists Get Wrong—and How to Fix It

Hosts:Kevin Cornelius, LMFTDr. David BurnsGuest: Jeremy Karmel

What happens when therapy becomes something you simply keep doing rather than something that actually helps you get better?

In this lively and provocative episode of The Feeling Good Podcast, Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, joins Dr. David Burns and Jeremy Karmel for a candid conversation about some of the biggest problems they see in modern mental health care—and what therapists can do differently.

Jeremy brings a unique perspective to the discussion: he experienced severe depression in college and spent months in different therapies and therapy groups without getting better. Then, working with one of David Burns' students, he discovered powerful cognitive therapy techniques that produced dramatic results in just two weeks. The experience left him both grateful and frustrated—and motivated to understand why effective treatment can sometimes be so difficult to find.

David, Kevin, and Jeremy explore several common pitfalls in therapy, including the failure to measure results, getting lost in the past, talking about problems in vague and general terms, and assuming that every therapist is qualified to treat every kind of problem.

The conversation begins with one of David's central concerns: accountability.

If someone has been coming to therapy for months—or even years—how do they know whether treatment is actually helping?

Kevin shares his own experience of spending several years in therapy without clearly defined goals or any systematic testing of progress. Although he valued the relationship with his therapist, he now sees the lack of specific goals and measurement as a major limitation. By contrast, his current approach involves establishing concrete treatment goals and measuring progress before and after sessions.

Jeremy points out that many people in therapy cannot even answer a basic question: What are you working on? Without clear goals, it becomes difficult for patients to hold therapists—or themselves—accountable for results.

The group then tackles another controversial question: Does effective therapy require uncovering the origins of a problem in childhood or the distant past?

David tells the story of a woman with a severe elevator phobia who had been told in psychoanalysis that the roots of her fear were in childhood—and that overcoming it might take several more years. During a workshop, David instead helped her confront the feared elevator directly. Within minutes, her fear disappeared, and she subsequently rode skyscraper elevators without difficulty.

The larger point isn't that the past is irrelevant. Rather, David argues that therapy can become unnecessarily focused on discovering hypothetical causes when the more practical question is: What is bothering you right now, and what can we do about it?

The conversation extends this idea to trauma and PTSD. David describes an approach that focuses primarily on the patient's current distress rather than repeatedly dwelling on the traumatic history. Jeremy shares an example of someone whose debilitating trauma-related flashbacks improved after confronting the traumatic memory directly.

Another major theme is the distinction between general problems and specific problems.

People commonly come into therapy saying things like:

But what does that actually mean?

David and Kevin argue that the therapist's job is to find a specific moment when the supposedly general problem was actually happening. What was going on? Where were you? Who was there? What were you feeling? And, most importantly, what were you telling yourself?

David describes these specific moments as "fractals": individual situations that contain the repeating pattern of a much larger problem. By solving the specific problem, you may simultaneously begin solving the general problem.

Jeremy illustrates this with his own tendency to argue. Looking at specific interactions through David's Relationship Journal helped him recognize a recurring pattern: instead of listening and looking for truth in what another person was saying, he would shift into arguing.

The final major theme may be the most provocative: Therapists aren't necessarily experts in every problem their patients bring to therapy.

David and Jeremy use dating as an example. A therapist may have extensive training in psychotherapy without having any particular expertise in dating, flirting, relationships, or the practical skills involved in meeting potential partners.

Kevin offers an important distinction: therapists don't necessarily need to give advice about every subject. Instead, they can help clients identify the thoughts, emotions, behaviors, and communication patterns that are getting in their way.

This leads to a broader principle: therapy is not one-size-fits-all. Different problems require different skills, and therapists should be honest about what they know—and what they don't.

Kevin describes how he deliberately developed greater expertise in treating anxiety rather than trying to present himself as an expert in everything.

Therapy should have measurable goals.If you don't know what you're trying to accomplish, it becomes difficult to determine whether therapy is working. Relief and effectiveness aren't necessarily the same thing.A supportive therapeutic relationship can feel valuable while still failing to produce meaningful progress on the problems that brought someone to therapy. Don't automatically assume the past is the key to the cure.The speakers argue that many problems can be addressed more effectively by focusing on what is happening in the present. Get specific.Instead of discussing "low self-esteem," "identity," or "relationship problems" in the abstract, identify a specific recent moment when the problem occurred. Specific moments can reveal larger patterns.The "fractal" concept suggests that a single upsetting interaction may contain the same cognitive and emotional patterns that repeatedly create suffering elsewhere. Therapists aren't experts at everything.A psychotherapy credential doesn't automatically make someone an expert in every problem a client might bring. Specialization matters.Therapists can become much more effective by developing deep expertise in particular problems and treatment methods. Therapists should be willing to say, "I'm not the right person for this."Recognizing the limits of one's expertise can be a sign of professionalism and humility rather than weakness. The ultimate question is simple: Is the patient getting better?For David, Kevin, and Jeremy, accountability means keeping the focus on results—and continually learning better ways to help people achieve them.

This episode features Dr. David Burns, Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and Jeremy Karmel, a former therapy client whose own experience with ineffective treatment led him to become deeply involved in developing the Feeling Great app.

The conversation is candid, humorous, and intentionally provocative—but its central message is constructive: when therapists identify weaknesses in their approach, measure their results, develop better skills, and remain humble about what they don't know, they can become dramatically more effective.

As David puts it near the end of the episode, there are problems in therapy—but there are also solutions, and learning new skills can open the door to much greater effectiveness.

Jeremy Karmel works with David Burns on the Feeling Great app and became passionate about TEAM-CBT after experiencing a dramatic recovery from severe depression during college. After trying numerous forms of therapy without success, he worked with Matt May and experienced a complete clearing of his depression in approximately two weeks.

If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe to The Feeling Good Podcast, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who struggles with anxiety or avoidance. Your support helps more people discover practical, evidence-based tools for overcoming fear and building happier lives.

We'd love to hear from you!Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Episode 518: Why So Much Therapy Doesn't Work (And What Actually Does)

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns Guest: Jeremy Karmel

What happens when therapy doesn't work?

In this provocative episode of The Feeling Good Podcast, David Burns and Jeremy Karmel join Kevin Cornelius to examine some uncomfortable questions about the mental health field: Why do some people remain in therapy for years without getting better? Why do so few therapists measure their patients' progress? What happens when therapists become overly attached to one particular school of therapy? And how can we make psychotherapy more effective, accountable, and evidence-based?

Jeremy brings a particularly personal perspective to the conversation. After experiencing severe depression in college and trying numerous forms of therapy without success, he worked with Matt May using TEAM-CBT and experienced a dramatic recovery in roughly two weeks. That experience ultimately led him to become deeply involved in TEAM-CBT and in the development of the Feeling Great app.

David and Jeremy describe a list of more than 30 concerns about the way mental health care is commonly practiced today. They emphasize that the goal isn't simply to criticize therapists, but to encourage a radical improvement in the effectiveness of psychotherapy.

1. Can financial incentives create a conflict of interest?

David and Jeremy explore a difficult question: If therapists are paid by the session, is there an inherent incentive to keep therapy going longer than necessary?

They contrast long-term therapy without measurable improvement with a model in which the therapist's goal is to help the client recover as quickly and completely as possible. David argues that therapists should be able to define what successful treatment looks like and determine whether their interventions are actually producing meaningful change.

Kevin offers another perspective from his experience at Feeling Good Institute, where brief TEAM-CBT therapy can lead to rapid improvement while also generating referrals because clients recognize that the treatment is effective.

2. Are schools of therapy becoming like "cults"?

David and Jeremy question the tendency within psychotherapy to become attached to particular theorists, schools, and treatment models.

Instead of assuming that one approach explains every psychological problem, they argue for flexibility. Depression, anxiety, relationship problems, and other difficulties may have very different causes and may require very different interventions.

David describes TEAM-CBT as a framework for effective psychotherapy rather than allegiance to one particular technique. He has developed more than 140 techniques and emphasizes selecting methods according to the individual's specific problem.

Jeremy points out that therapists and patients can be tempted to treat the ideas of famous figures such as Freud or Carl Rogers as unquestionable truths rather than hypotheses that should be tested against evidence.

3. The refusal to measure

Perhaps the strongest theme of the episode is the importance of measurement.

David argues that therapists need to know whether their patients are actually improving—not simply assume that they are. His approach involves measuring symptoms at the beginning and end of sessions and tracking changes over time.

If a person begins a session feeling 90% depressed and ends at 80%, that's useful information. If the numbers don't improve from week to week, the therapist has evidence that something needs to change. On the other hand, dramatic changes can provide tangible evidence that treatment is working.

Jeremy shares the story of a friend who had apparently been depressed for 18 months or more while receiving therapy, yet neither the therapist nor the patient had been systematically measuring whether the depression was improving.

4. Therapists aren't always accurate judges of how their patients feel

One of the most surprising parts of the discussion is David's argument that therapists' clinical intuition can be remarkably inaccurate.

He describes research in which highly trained clinicians interviewed patients extensively and then estimated how depressed, anxious, angry, or suicidal the patients were. Their estimates were extremely inaccurate compared with the patients' own ratings.

The lesson is humbling: We cannot reliably assume that we know how another person feels simply because we've spent a lot of time talking with them.

Measurement provides information that intuition cannot.

5. Measurement can transform the therapist, too

David explains that measurement isn't simply a way of judging the patient—or judging the therapist. It can become one of the most powerful tools for improving clinical skill.

If a therapist believes a session went wonderfully but the patient's ratings show otherwise, the therapist has an opportunity to learn. Likewise, if a particular intervention consistently produces dramatic improvements, measurement can reveal what works and help the therapist do more of it.

Kevin shares his own experience of how using testing transformed his work with clients and helped him learn how to become a more effective therapist.

6. What can therapists and patients do differently?

The episode ultimately isn't about giving up on therapy. It's about demanding better therapy.

David argues that the problems discussed—including conflicts of interest, allegiance to particular schools of therapy, and the failure to measure outcomes—are solvable. Therapists can begin using data to evaluate their effectiveness and become more willing to change their methods when patients aren't improving.

Kevin also encourages people seeking therapy to ask prospective therapists whether they use measurement and whether they track progress from session to session.

How do you know if your therapy is working?

If you're a therapist, do you routinely measure your clients' symptoms and satisfaction? If you're a therapy client, has anyone ever shown you objective evidence that you're getting better?

And perhaps most importantly: Would you have the courage to discover that your current approach isn't working—and then change it?

Jeremy Karmel works with David Burns on the Feeling Great app and became passionate about TEAM-CBT after experiencing a dramatic recovery from severe depression during college. After trying numerous forms of therapy without success, he worked with Matt May and experienced a complete clearing of his depression in approximately two weeks.

This conversation is the beginning of a larger discussion about the problems—and possibilities—of modern psychotherapy. As Kevin notes at the end of the episode, there are solutions to many of the problems discussed, and future episodes will explore more of them.

If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe to The Feeling Good Podcast, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who struggles with anxiety or avoidance. Your support helps more people discover practical, evidence-based tools for overcoming fear and building happier lives.

We'd love to hear from you!Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Episode 517: How a Bloody Trauma Case Cured My Lifelong Blood Phobia

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns

Can your greatest fear become one of your greatest strengths?

In this deeply personal episode, Dr. David Burns shares the remarkable true story of how a severe lifelong blood phobia nearly ended his medical career—and how one unforgettable day in the emergency room transformed that fear forever.

David recounts his unconventional path to becoming a psychiatrist, including almost dropping out of medical school, taking years away from medicine, living without money while trying to create a life centered around helping others, and eventually finding his way back to psychiatry through a residency at Highland Hospital in Oakland.

On his very first day in the emergency department, David was confronted with what seemed like his worst nightmare: a critically injured bombing victim covered in blood. Unable to avoid the situation, he was asked to help clean gunpowder from the patient's wounds. What began as overwhelming terror became an unexpected turning point that permanently erased his blood phobia—and ultimately shaped his career treating anxiety disorders.

Along the way, David and Kevin explore why exposure is one of the most powerful treatments for anxiety, why motivation is essential for lasting change, and why courage doesn't require the absence of fear.

This inspiring conversation is a reminder that the experiences we most want to avoid can sometimes become the doorway to profound growth.

The natural impulse is to escape what frightens us. Unfortunately, every act of avoidance teaches the brain that the feared situation is dangerous.

When we stay in the feared situation long enough, anxiety eventually peaks and then naturally declines. The feared catastrophe rarely occurs, and our confidence grows.

Kevin highlights an important distinction:

You don't have to eliminate fear before taking action.

Real courage is moving forward even while your anxiety feels overwhelming. David's anxiety remained at a 100 out of 100 for nearly fifteen minutes before it suddenly dissolved.

One of the biggest misconceptions about anxiety is the belief that once it starts, it will continue indefinitely.

In reality, anxiety naturally rises and falls. If we stop escaping and allow ourselves to experience it, it eventually loses its power.

For years David simply avoided blood.

Everything changed because he had something more important than avoiding fear: he wanted to become a psychiatrist.

Having a compelling reason to face anxiety often makes difficult exposure exercises possible.

David describes what he calls the "200% cure."

Many people who overcome fears discover new passions that once seemed impossible.

Kevin and David discuss an important obstacle in treatment: therapists themselves sometimes avoid exposure because they're afraid it will overwhelm the client.

Ironically, protecting people from anxiety often prolongs suffering. Learning that anxiety is uncomfortable—but not dangerous—is one of the most healing discoveries patients can make.

The goal is never to feel relaxed before confronting a fear.

The goal is to become willing to experience anxiety while pursuing what matters.

"When you confront the thing you're afraid of, you discover that the monster has no teeth."

"You don't have to be a hero. You just have to make the decision to do it."

"The 100% cure is you're no longer afraid. The 200% cure is that you love doing the thing you were once afraid of."

"The real harm is believing that anxiety itself is dangerous."

If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe to The Feeling Good Podcast, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who struggles with anxiety or avoidance. Your support helps more people discover practical, evidence-based tools for overcoming fear and building happier lives.

We'd love to hear from you!Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

The Man Who Was Fired Five Times How Letting Go of Blame Can Transform Your Life

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns

What if the biggest obstacle to your happiness isn't your depression, your anxiety, or even the difficult people around you?

What if it's the belief that everyone else needs to change first?

In this powerful episode of the Feeling Good Podcast, Dr. David Burns and host Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, discuss one of David's favorite therapy stories from his recent Psychology Today article, "The Man Who Was Fired Five Times." What begins as the story of a brilliant computer programmer who can't keep a job becomes an unforgettable lesson in overcoming resistance, building meaningful relationships, and discovering the extraordinary power of humility.

This episode is packed with practical TEAM-CBT techniques, fascinating therapy demonstrations, and one of the most inspiring recovery stories you'll ever hear.

David introduces us to "Bhagwant" (a pseudonym), an exceptionally gifted computer programmer who sought treatment after being fired five times in just two years.

Although he initially came to therapy complaining of low self-esteem, David quickly noticed something much deeper.

Bhagwant believed:

Despite his obvious brilliance, his habit of blaming others had become the greatest obstacle to both his career and his happiness.

Instead of immediately offering therapy techniques, David did something surprising.

He told Bhagwant that perhaps they shouldn't work together.

Why?

Because therapy would require Bhagwant—not his coworkers—to do all of the changing.

Rather than arguing with Bhagwant or trying to convince him he was wrong, David used one of the most powerful TEAM-CBT methods:

By joining Bhagwant's resistance instead of fighting it, David completely changed the emotional dynamic.

Instead of saying:

"You're the problem."

He essentially said:

"You're right—it seems terribly unfair that you'd have to do all the work when everyone else is causing the problem."

That paradoxical response immediately dissolved Bhagwant's resistance.

Moments later, he admitted something he had hidden from David:

He hadn't merely been placed on probation.

He had already been fired—for the fifth time.

One of the central themes of the episode is David's insistence on working with specific moments instead of vague labels.

Rather than treating "low self-esteem" as the problem, David asks:

This "fractal" approach allows therapy to target the real thoughts creating emotional suffering instead of treating abstract diagnostic labels.

As David explains, problems can only be solved when they're connected to a real moment in time.

Once Bhagwant committed fully to treatment, he became an extraordinarily dedicated student of TEAM-CBT.

He learned to:

At one point, David actually had to limit Bhagwant's therapy homework because he was spending six to eight hours a day practicing.

Eventually Bhagwant received a job offer from a company in Florida.

David gave him one final piece of surprising advice:

Ask your new employer to agree to criticize you every single week.

Specifically, David suggested requesting regular meetings where supervisors would openly point out mistakes so Bhagwant could practice using the Five Secrets and the Disarming Technique.

The company agreed.

The results were astonishing.

Within weeks:

Years later, David received a Christmas card that brought tears to his eyes.

Bhagwant had become CEO of the very company that hired him.

Much of the second half of the episode explores one of the most challenging—and most transformative—TEAM-CBT skills.

Disarming means sincerely finding the truth in criticism, even when the criticism seems exaggerated or unfair.

David explains what he calls the Law of Opposites:

This simple paradox can dramatically transform difficult conversations.

Kevin and David demonstrate the Disarming Technique through several live role plays.

David criticizes Kevin as being:

Kevin practices agreeing with the truth in the criticism instead of defending himself.

David then coaches Kevin to go even deeper—not by problem-solving or trying to improve himself immediately, but by becoming genuinely curious about the other person's experience.

Later, the roles reverse, and Kevin criticizes David for being:

David demonstrates how quickly criticism melts away when someone responds with humility, openness, and genuine curiosity.

These demonstrations beautifully illustrate why the Disarming Technique is often one of the hardest TEAM-CBT skills to master—and one of the most powerful.

Throughout the episode, David explains that resistance is not an obstacle to therapy.

It's the doorway into effective therapy.

Rather than pushing people toward change, TEAM-CBT first helps people understand why changing feels difficult.

Once resistance melts away, motivation naturally appears.

The conversation concludes with a reflection on one of David's favorite philosophical themes.

Drawing from Buddhist psychology, David discusses how learning to accept criticism requires what he calls "the death of the self"—letting go of pride, defensiveness, and the constant need to protect one's ego.

Rather than seeing criticism as an attack, we can learn to experience it as an opportunity for connection, growth, and deeper understanding.

Whether you're a therapist, a parent, a leader, or simply someone who wants healthier relationships, this episode offers practical tools and inspiring hope that lasting change is possible—even after years of frustration and failure.

We'd love to hear from you!

Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.

Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Episode 515: Ask David Parenting Meltdowns, Real-Time TEAM-CBT, and When Negative Thoughts Won't Stop

What do you do when your child has a public meltdown—and you feel your own frustration rising just as quickly?

And what if your mind feels so overwhelmed with anxious or depressive thoughts that completing a Daily Mood Log seems impossible?

In this Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns is joined by host Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and Psychiatrist/TEAM-CBT therapist Dr. Matt May to answer two thoughtful listener questions that many parents and therapy enthusiasts will recognize. Together, they demonstrate TEAM-CBT techniques live, showing not only what to do, but how to think differently in the moment.

Along the way, they explore why changing your relationship with your own thoughts is often more important than trying to control other people's behavior.

A listener describes taking his two young sons to the driving range when one child suddenly wants to leave while the other wants to stay. As frustration mounts, so do the automatic thoughts:

Although the listener can challenge these thoughts later using a Daily Mood Log, he wonders:

How can I use TEAM-CBT in the middle of an emotionally charged parenting moment?

David, Kevin, and Matt explore this question through several live demonstrations.

Matt demonstrates how to respond to his own inner critic using Externalization of Voices, replacing self-criticism with realistic self-acceptance instead of perfectionism.

The conversation then shifts to another common trap: Trying to make other people different than they are.

Together they examine several automatic thoughts parents commonly experience:

David helps Matt and Kevin identify the cognitive distortions hiding inside these thoughts, including:

Rather than arguing intellectually, they demonstrate TEAM-CBT methods such as:

The discussion highlights an important insight:

Much of our emotional suffering comes not from other people's behavior—but from insisting they should be different than they are.

Kevin shares a personal story about using the Feeling Great app's Paradoxical Magnification exercise to dissolve his own "should" statements about parenting through humor and acceptance.

The second listener has struggled with depression and anxiety since adolescence.

Although he believes in TEAM-CBT, he finds the Daily Mood Log overwhelming because his mind produces what feels like hundreds of negative thoughts every minute.

His questions include:

Dr. Burns explains that:

Using his own recovery after recent surgery as an example, David reminds listeners that small, steady efforts often produce remarkable long-term change.

Kevin describes how simply sitting down with the Daily Mood Log often quiets his racing mind and helps him focus on what truly matters.

David recommends another powerful exercise:

Negative Practice

Instead of fighting racing thoughts:

Many people discover that simply hearing their thoughts aloud changes their relationship to them.

Matt also emphasizes several uncovering techniques that help identify the deeper beliefs generating so many automatic thoughts, including:

Rather than trying to "think positively," TEAM-CBT first helps eliminate the hidden resistance that makes positive thoughts difficult to believe.

Near the end of the episode, David introduces a new experiment:

Rapid-fire Ask David answers.

In just thirty seconds, he explains one of the central concepts from Feeling Great:

David explains that each "death" ultimately reveals something surprising:

There was never anything essential to lose—only freedom to gain.

The team asks for your input:

Would you rather hear:

Let them know through this week's listener survey.

As always, thank you for listening to the Feeling Good Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and send us your questions—you just might hear them discussed on a future Ask David episode.

You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

514: Ask David w/ Dr. Matt May Schizophrenia, Resistance, TEAM's Future, and What Makes a Great Therapist

In this thought-provoking Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns is joined by Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and special guest Dr. Matt May, psychiatrist, TEAM-CBT therapist, and longtime colleague of Dr. Burns. Together, they tackle challenging listener questions about schizophrenia, emotional suffering, resistance to change, therapist training, and the future of psychotherapy.

Along the way, the conversation becomes deeply personal as David reflects on the qualities that shaped the development of TEAM-CBT, his hopes and concerns for the future of psychotherapy, and the lessons he's learned after decades of clinical work.

Kevin welcomes Dr. Matt May back to the podcast. Matt is a psychiatrist trained at Stanford who has worked closely with David for more than twenty years. Although trained in psychiatry, Matt explains that his work today focuses almost entirely on TEAM-CBT rather than medication management.

David praises Matt as one of the most gifted therapists he has ever known, highlighting his warmth, compassion, humility, and clinical expertise.

A listener asks whether TEAM-CBT can help with the so-called "three A's" of schizophrenia:

or whether medication is the primary treatment.

David challenges the assumptions behind the question itself.

Rather than viewing people through the lens of diagnostic labels and symptoms, he emphasizes that TEAM-CBT begins by asking:

"What would you like help with?"

He argues that therapists often fall into the trap of acting like experts who believe they already know what a patient needs based on a diagnosis. TEAM-CBT takes the opposite approach, focusing on the individual person's goals, struggles, and hopes.

David shares an early experience treating a patient with schizophrenia. Initially, he tried to challenge the patient's delusional beliefs directly through cognitive techniques. When the patient simply reinterpreted the evidence to support the delusion, David realized he was pursuing his own agenda rather than the patient's.

The lesson:

TEAM-CBT focuses on helping people with the problems they want help with—not on treating diagnostic labels.

A listener asks whether present-moment thoughts are only part of the picture and whether deeper emotional circuitry, stress physiology, or network-level brain changes also contribute to emotional suffering.

The listener also wonders whether cognitive therapy truly processes emotions like grief, fear, shame, and anger—or merely suppresses them.

Matt offers a practical example from his own life.

One afternoon he found himself flooded with depressive thoughts and self-critical feelings. He suddenly felt hopeless, inadequate, and discouraged.

Then he realized:

He had skipped lunch and was extremely hungry.

After eating, the negative thoughts disappeared.

His point is that physical states matter. Sleep deprivation, poor nutrition, illness, intoxication, and other biological factors can influence how easily negative thoughts arise and how difficult they are to challenge.

David distinguishes sharply between:

He revisits a story from his medical school years, describing the death of a beloved elderly patient whose family gathered around him during his final moments.

Everyone cried.

David cried too.

But that sadness was not depression.

The grief emerged naturally from loving thoughts and genuine loss.

In contrast, depression is fueled by distorted thoughts such as:

TEAM-CBT seeks to eliminate distorted suffering while preserving healthy human emotions.

A listener asks:

When teaching clinicians, what misunderstanding should be corrected first?

David emphasizes that TEAM is a system:

Testing → Empathy → Agenda Setting → Methods

Many therapists focus immediately on techniques and interventions.

But before methods can work:

The therapist must develop genuine empathy. The therapist must uncover resistance to change.

Without empathy, patients don't feel understood.

Without addressing resistance, therapists often end up arguing with their patients.

David explains that people usually have many good reasons not to change. TEAM-CBT helps bring those reasons into awareness and resolve them before attempting intervention.

Matt reflects on his own training with David.

He recalls spending countless hours learning empathy and discovering how difficult it is not to jump in with advice, reassurance, or premature solutions.

According to Matt:

Kevin notes that TEAM itself naturally provides the roadmap:

The sequence protects therapists from moving too quickly into problem-solving.

A listener named Vlad writes a heartfelt letter reflecting on the transition from Rhonda Barovsky's co-hosting role and asking:

David explains that much of his current work focuses on preserving and sharing TEAM-CBT for future generations.

Examples include:

He hopes future therapists will continue refining, expanding, and improving the methods.

At the same time, David expresses disappointment that many mental health professionals have shown limited interest in approaches that emphasize rapid, measurable change.

He remains committed to the possibility that therapy can become far more effective than it is today.

Matt identifies several characteristics he believes contributed to David's success:

David never accepted conventional wisdom simply because others believed it.

He continually asked:

"What actually works?"

David consistently measures outcomes and learns from failures rather than defending cherished theories.

Rather than seeing himself as the expert, David allows patients to become his teachers.

According to Matt, David's genuine concern for human suffering gives life to the science.

David spent decades refining techniques, collecting data, developing tools, and challenging accepted assumptions.

The conversation also touches on the Feeling Great app and artificial intelligence.

David explains that the app was designed to deliver many TEAM-CBT principles to people who might not otherwise have access to therapy.

He remains hopeful that technology can help make effective treatment more widely available while preserving the human values at the heart of psychotherapy.

We'd love to hear from you!

Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.

Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Grandma's Snake Phobia The Real Cause of Her Anxiety

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns

What if anxiety isn't the problem?

What if anxiety is actually a message?

In this fascinating episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius explore one of the most intriguing concepts in TEAM-CBT: the Hidden Emotion Technique. Using the memorable case of "Grandma's Snake Phobia," David explains why some forms of anxiety persist despite cognitive techniques, exposure exercises, and logical reassurance—and how uncovering an unrecognized emotional truth can sometimes lead to astonishingly rapid recovery.

David shares the story of an elderly woman who suddenly developed a crippling fear of snakes despite spending her entire life comfortably around them. While most therapists might have focused on treating the phobia itself, David suspected that the anxiety was serving another purpose entirely.

As the conversation unfolds, listeners learn how anxiety can function as a symbolic message from the subconscious mind, drawing attention to feelings, needs, conflicts, or desires that have been pushed out of awareness.

David also shares the remarkable story of the patient whose panic attacks and nausea at work led him to first discover the Hidden Emotion Technique, as well as a deeply personal story involving his own struggle with anxiety and professional conflict.

Along the way, David and Kevin discuss why highly anxious people are often some of the kindest and most compassionate individuals, how "niceness" can sometimes fuel anxiety, and why learning to honor our feelings may be one of the most important steps toward recovery.

"Anxiety is our subconscious mind trying to get our attention and tell us something important that our conscious minds can't seem to see."

"The ultimate fear in anxiety is often the fear of your own feelings."

"Only nice people develop anxiety disorders."

"The hidden emotion isn't the fear itself. The fear is conscious. The hidden emotion is the feeling you believe you're not supposed to have."

"Anxiety never comes out of the blue. It comes from our lives and our hearts."

Identify the feeling, desire, conflict, or unmet need that has been pushed out of conscious awareness.

Common examples include:

Recovery occurs when you:

As David emphasizes, insight alone rarely eliminates anxiety. The transformation occurs when awareness is followed by action.

David describes a pattern he has observed repeatedly throughout his career:

Many anxious individuals:

When these feelings remain hidden, anxiety can emerge as a signal that something important needs attention.

We'd love to hear from you!

Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.

Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.

Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

The Myth of Slow Healing Why Rapid Recovery Is Possible

Featuring Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius, LMFT

Many people believe emotional healing takes months—or even years. Therapists are often trained to expect gradual progress, and patients may assume lasting change requires prolonged struggle.

But what if that assumption is wrong?

In this episode, Dr. David Burns challenges one of the most deeply entrenched beliefs in mental health: the idea that meaningful psychological recovery must happen slowly.

Drawing from his recent Psychology Today article, The Myth of Slow Healing, Dr. Burns explains why rapid emotional change is not only possible—it may actually reflect how the human brain naturally works.

Through powerful clinical stories, personal reflections, and decades of research, Dr. Burns describes how depression, anxiety, panic, shame, and hopelessness can sometimes disappear in a matter of minutes when people discover and challenge the distorted thoughts driving their suffering.

Dr. Burns begins by sharing a formative experience from his psychiatric residency in Philadelphia.

As a young psychiatrist, he noticed something troubling: psychotherapy often seemed to continue indefinitely, yet measurable recovery was rarely discussed. Therapists relied heavily on intuition, but almost no one was systematically measuring whether patients were actually improving.

A walk through Fairmount Park sparked an insight that would transform his career.

Thinking about professional basketball players improving through constant feedback—seeing whether the ball goes through the hoop—he wondered:

How can therapists improve if they never measure whether their sessions are helping?

This question led him to become one of the earliest advocates for routine outcome measurement in psychotherapy, eventually helping shape the development of TEAM-CBT's session-by-session assessment system.

Dr. Burns discusses his early use of the Beck Depression Inventory and the surprising lessons it taught him.

Again and again, he discovered that his assumptions about how patients felt were often wrong:

These experiences reinforced an important lesson:

Therapists need data, not guesses.

By measuring depression, anxiety, empathy, and therapeutic effectiveness during every session, therapists can receive the feedback necessary to improve their work and help patients more effectively.

One of the episode's most memorable concepts is what Dr. Burns calls the "Caveman Effect."

Borrowing an illustration from neuroscientist Mark Noble, he describes a prehistoric human hearing a twig snap behind him at dusk.

The caveman immediately thinks:

"A tiger is behind me!"

Instantly, fear surges.

Then he turns around and discovers the sound came from his wife stepping on a branch.

In that moment, his fear vanishes.

Not gradually.

Not over six months.

Instantly.

Dr. Burns argues that this illustrates a fundamental principle:

Thoughts create emotions.

When a frightening thought is believed, anxiety emerges.

When that thought is no longer believed, anxiety disappears.

This process can happen in seconds.

Dr. Burns describes three different ways emotional healing can occur rapidly.

Many patients experience dramatic improvements within a single two-hour session.

Rather than expecting treatment to continue indefinitely, Dr. Burns often approaches therapy with the goal of achieving complete symptom remission as quickly as possible.

Even within a session, the most important change frequently occurs during a short window—sometimes only a few minutes long.

Once therapists identify the specific distorted thoughts maintaining the problem and apply an effective intervention, major shifts can happen quickly.

The most dramatic change often occurs in a matter of seconds.

This is the moment when someone suddenly sees:

When this realization occurs, emotions can shift almost instantly.

Dr. Burns compares this experience to the caveman discovering there was never a tiger at all.

If rapid healing is possible, why do so many people reject the concept?

Dr. Burns identifies several reasons:

Many people have spent years struggling with depression or anxiety.

The idea that change could happen quickly may sound unrealistic or even fraudulent.

After repeated disappointments, hope itself can feel dangerous.

Rapid recovery also challenges many traditional assumptions about psychotherapy.

It raises uncomfortable questions:

Dr. Burns and Kevin discuss how financial incentives can sometimes unintentionally reinforce longer treatments, even when faster recovery may be possible.

One of the episode's most powerful moments is Dr. Burns' retelling of Terry's story.

Terry suffered from:

Her symptoms were extreme, with depression and anxiety scores among the highest Dr. Burns had ever seen.

The key breakthrough came when he identified the specific thought driving her panic:

"I'm about to have a heart attack."

Using an experimental technique, Dr. Burns intentionally helped Terry induce panic symptoms in session.

Then he challenged her catastrophic belief through direct experience.

If she were truly having a heart attack:

As Terry performed increasingly strenuous activity, she suddenly realized the absurdity of her belief.

Then came the breakthrough moment.

She laughed.

The fear disappeared.

And a decade of panic ended.

The episode emphasizes that it was not the jumping jacks themselves that created recovery.

It was the moment she stopped believing the distorted thought.

Dr. Burns revisits three core principles of cognitive therapy:

Your emotions result from your thoughts—not directly from events.

The thoughts creating depression and anxiety are typically distorted.

Common distortions include:

The moment you stop believing a distorted thought, your emotions will change.

This principle remains central to TEAM-CBT and forms the foundation for many rapid recoveries.

Later in the discussion, Dr. Burns explains that distorted thoughts are only part of the story.

Another critical factor is motivation.

People often have powerful reasons for holding onto painful feelings.

Depression, anxiety, anger, guilt, and shame frequently reflect important personal values.

For example:

Rather than arguing patients out of their symptoms, TEAM-CBT often begins by exploring what those symptoms reveal about the person's strengths and values.

To illustrate this paradoxical approach, Dr. Burns shares the story of Benny.

Benny was:

Rather than confronting Benny's hopelessness, Dr. Burns did something unexpected.

He explored all the advantages of believing:

"I'm a hopeless case."

Together they listed the benefits:

For the first time, Benny felt understood rather than judged.

Then his defenses collapsed.

He revealed a lifetime of hidden pain, including witnessing his grandfather's suicide and struggling with illiteracy.

The story illustrates a central paradox of TEAM-CBT:

People often change only after they feel completely accepted exactly as they are.

After decades of witnessing rapid recovery, Dr. Burns says one conclusion feels increasingly clear:

Thoughts create emotions.

Yet he also emphasizes a deeper question:

Why do some people generate so many painful thoughts in the first place?

His answer increasingly involves:

Understanding both cognition and motivation has become essential to creating lasting change.

Dr. Burns and Kevin continue the conversation with a fascinating discussion of:

"Grandma's Snake Phobia: The Real Cause of Her Anxiety"

You'll learn about the Hidden Emotion Model and discover why the apparent cause of anxiety is sometimes very different from the true cause.

Your feedback helps shape future episodes.

Please take a moment to complete the brief listener survey linked here. It takes less than two minutes and provides invaluable guidance for improving the podcast and helping more people learn these powerful tools for recovery.

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Shame Attacking: A Surprising Cure for Social Anxiety

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns

Many people believe social anxiety is caused by low self-esteem, poor social skills, or awkwardness. But what if the real culprit is shame?

In this episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius explore one of the most powerful—and unconventional—tools for overcoming social anxiety: Shame Attacking Exercises.

Drawing from Dr. Burns' recent Psychology Today article, Shame Attacking: Overcoming a Lifetime of Social Anxiety, they tell the remarkable story of Martin, a handsome young man whose intense shame about excessive sweating had left him isolated and unable to connect with others. Through a series of courageous shame-attacking exercises, Martin discovered something life-changing: the world was far kinder and less judgmental than he imagined.

Along the way, David shares how he first learned shame-attacking exercises from followers of psychologist Albert Ellis and describes his own unforgettable experience of asking strangers in a crowded New York restaurant if he could sample their food.

The episode highlights how bringing our perceived flaws into the open often causes shame to evaporate—much like a vampire exposed to sunlight.

David introduces a memorable metaphor:

Shame survives in darkness and secrecy. When exposed to the light, it shrivels up and dies.

The discussion explores how openly acknowledging our imperfections can dramatically reduce anxiety and self-consciousness.

David and Kevin discuss:

David emphasizes that shame-attacking exercises are powerful but should be used thoughtfully.

Some important principles include:

Exercises should never disrupt places where people deserve peace and privacy, such as hospitals, churches, or synagogues.

The goal is to laugh at yourself, not make others uncomfortable or upset.

The breakthrough often comes when you act despite feeling anxious.

If therapists want patients to challenge shame, they should be willing to challenge their own shame as well.

This episode is based on Dr. David Burns' Psychology Today article:

"Shame Attacking: Overcoming a Lifetime of Social Anxiety"

The article explores Martin's story in greater detail and illustrates how shame-attacking exercises can transform social anxiety by challenging both self-criticism and fears of rejection.

As with TEAM-CBT therapy, feedback helps us improve.

Please take a few minutes to complete the episode feedback survey linked here. Your responses help us create better episodes and continue exploring the topics that matter most to you.

Until next time, remember: the things you're most afraid to reveal about yourself may be the very things that set you free.

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Conquering Social Anxiety: The Courage to Reach Out

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns

In this deeply moving episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius explore one of the most painful and misunderstood forms of anxiety: social anxiety.

David shares a remarkable true story about a wealthy and highly successful businessman whose severe social anxiety left him feeling isolated, ashamed, and unable to connect even with his own family. Despite his power, wealth, and accomplishments, he secretly believed there was something deeply wrong with him because he felt anxious around people.

Through an unforgettable exposure exercise involving radical self-disclosure on a public train, David illustrates how shame loses its power when it is brought into the open—and how genuine human connection can emerge when we stop hiding our perceived flaws.

This episode explores:

David and Kevin also discuss:

One especially memorable takeaway from the episode:"When I give up my need to be special, then life can be special."

Next week, David and Kevin explore another powerful treatment for social anxiety inspired by Albert Ellis: Shame Attacking Exercises—a bold and often life-changing approach to overcoming fear of judgment.

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

When Trauma Still Hurts: Memory Rescripting

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns

This episode includes discussion of trauma, including sexual abuse and violence, which may be distressing for some listeners.

Memory rescripting is a therapeutic technique that helps people transform how they experience painful memories.

David shares a striking case of a young woman struggling with:

She revealed a childhood trauma:

During a guided session:

She vividly re-experienced the traumatic memory At peak emotional intensity, she: Entered the scene as a strong adult Physically stopped the perpetrator (in imagination) Enacted intense revenge fantasies She continued reshaping the scene until: She felt relief and empowerment

After the session:

Memory rescripting may work by:

A crucial takeaway:

Recovery is maintained through continued exposure—not avoidance.

Changing distorted thoughts can eliminate emotional suffering.

Different techniques work for different people.

Even long-standing anxiety can be overcome.

Flexibility and multiple tools are key.

When the patient rewrites the script on a traumatic memory, new brain circuits are created and the patient is freed from the pain of the traumatic event.

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

A New Model for Treating Trauma Do You Need to Revisit the Past to Heal Trauma? Episode Overview

In this episode, David and Kevin explore a provocative idea: healing from trauma may not require revisiting the past at all. Drawing from decades of clinical experience and data-driven research, David challenges a core assumption in trauma therapy and explains why focusing on the present moment can lead to rapid and lasting change.

A Radical Shift in Trauma Treatment

The Power of the Present Moment

The Cognitive Model at Work

Data-Driven Insights

Anne's Story (Terminal Cancer Diagnosis)

Trauma Workshop Demonstrations

Latvian Survivor's Story

Healthy vs. Unhealthy Negative Emotions

Exposure Therapy—Used Selectively

No One-Size-Fits-All Approach

"The moment you stop believing a distorted thought is the moment your negative feelings disappear."

This episode offers a hopeful and empowering message: You may not need to relive your past to heal from it. By changing how you think and feel today, meaningful recovery can happen faster than you might expect.

Next episode: A deeper dive into trauma treatment using memory rescripting, including when revisiting the past can be helpful.

Thanks for listening—see you next time!

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Mastering the Daily Mood Log Small Details, Life-Changing Results Episode Summary

The Daily Mood Log might seem simple—even boring—but its impact can be profound. In this episode, David and Kevin break down how to use this powerful CBT tool effectively, highlighting the most common mistakes people make and how to avoid them.

They explain why focusing on a single specific moment is the key to emotional transformation, how to accurately identify feelings, and how to uncover the exact thoughts driving distress. This practical deep dive shows how small shifts in technique can lead to dramatic improvements in mood, confidence, and even what David calls "enlightenment."

Common Mistakes:

Example: ✔️ "At 3pm today, my boss criticized my report in a meeting."

Examples:

Common Mistakes:

Why It Matters:

Examples:

Common Mistakes:

Tip: Work through emotions one at a time:

✅ Are 100% true ✅ Reduce belief in the negative thought

Examples:

Common Mistakes:

Key Insight: Truth alone isn't enough—it must directly challenge the negative belief.

Example:

Goal:

Why It Matters:

Change one moment → understand the pattern → apply it everywhere.

Try this today: (Download a blank Daily Mood Log at this link)

Write down one upsetting moment Rate your feelings (0–100%) List 3–5 short negative thoughts Challenge one thought with a 100% true alternative

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, sharing the podcast, or leaving a review. It helps more people discover tools for overcoming depression and anxiety.

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Live Work with Ruben: Part 1 of 2 Working with Performance Anxiety in Real Time

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns Guests: Dr. Jill Levitt Ruben Land

In this live work from a recent Tuesday Group, we had the opportunity to work with Ruben, a highly capable and thoughtful clinician, who brought a struggle that many therapists quietly share: intense performance anxiety in evaluative situations, especially in the presence of authority figures or people he deeply admires. What made this work especially powerful is that Ruben was actively experiencing anxiety in the moment, allowing us to "get in the car with him" rather than talk about the problem abstractly.

We began, as always in TEAM-CBT, with Testing. Ruben had completed a Brief Mood Survey, which showed relatively low baseline symptoms—just mild anxiety and minimal depression or anger. However, when we reviewed his Daily Mood Log, anchored to a specific situation (leading a group under supervision), we saw a very different picture: anxiety at 70%, feelings of inferiority and defectiveness at 80%, embarrassment at 70%. This contrast highlights a core principle: symptoms are often situational and state-dependent, and without anchoring in a specific moment, we risk missing the true intensity of the problem.

From there, we moved into Empathy, where Jill did a beautiful job modeling the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. She captured Ruben's internal experience with precision: the pressure to perform, the fear of saying the wrong thing, the spiral of anxiety leading to cognitive blanking, and the secondary anxiety about appearing anxious. She also identified both the internal loop ("I'm anxious about being anxious") and the interpersonal fears ("they'll think I'm a fraud," "I'm wasting their time").

David complemented this with curiosity and gentle inquiry, helping to deepen the conceptualization without getting lost in theory. Importantly, we conducted an empathy check, asking Ruben to grade us on thought empathy, feeling empathy, and warmth. He gave A+ ratings across the board, with a slight adjustment on thought empathy when he introduced an additional element: a compulsive need to check and recheck, suggesting a subtle OCD-like process. This moment is critical—without the empathy check, we would have missed an important maintaining factor.

Only after strong empathy did we move into Agenda Setting, which is often the most counterintuitive and transformative part of TEAM-CBT. David began with the Invitation, asking whether Ruben wanted help or more support. Ruben was ready to "roll up his sleeves," which is essential—no imposed agenda. Then we used the Miracle Question to clarify goals: Ruben wanted to feel less anxious, maintain fluency, and stay present in high-stakes situations.

Next came the Magic Button, targeting outcome resistance. When asked if he would eliminate all his negative feelings, Ruben said no—he wanted to keep some anxiety. This is exactly what we hope for. It opens the door to Positive Reframing, where we honor the symptoms rather than pathologize them.

Together, we identified numerous positive values and benefits of his anxiety and self-doubt:

Anxiety motivates preparation and effort

It enhances connection through vulnerability

It reflects caring deeply about others and their time

Feelings of inadequacy keep him humble and growth-oriented

Fear of judgment protects him and signals high standards

Even the thought "I might be a fraud" reflects a desire to be authentic and competent

At one point, Ruben articulated that his anxiety shows he values others and wants to contribute meaningfully—this is a profound reframe. Jill and David reinforced these insights, helping him see that his "symptoms" are actually expressions of his values system in action.

We also explored a key factor: his anxiety is amplified in performative, evaluative contexts, especially with authority figures, and is less intense in vulnerable, non-evaluative settings. This distinction is clinically crucial and guides both conceptualization and intervention.

Another powerful moment came when Ruben acknowledged that self-disclosure reduces his anxiety, supporting the idea that "shame requires secrecy." When he hides his anxiety, it intensifies; when he shares it, it softens. This is both a therapeutic tool and a treatment target.

After thoroughly addressing resistance, we moved into Goal Setting, asking Ruben not what he wants to eliminate, but what he wants to dial down. This is a hallmark of TEAM:

Anxiety: 70 → 30

Shame: 30 → 20

Inadequacy: 80 → 30

Embarrassment: 70 → 20

We then transitioned into Methods, targeting the thought: "My speech is too slow, and I sound foolish, ignorant, and boring."

Jill began with a classic but essential step: identify the distortions. Ruben quickly identified all-or-nothing thinking, overgeneralization, mental filter, discounting positives, mind reading, fortune telling, labeling, self-blame, and hidden "shoulds." This is an important teaching point: when a thought contains nearly all distortions, it's not a problem—it's a goldmine.

From there, rather than staying intellectual, we offered multiple method pathways—Externalization of Voices, Feared Fantasy, Be Specific, and Double Standard—modeling flexibility and collaboration. Ruben chose Externalization of Voices, which became the central method.

David stepped in as the Negative Ruben, delivering the attack clearly and forcefully. This is essential—the more vivid the critic, the more powerful the response. Ruben responded using a blend of acceptance ("it's true I sometimes pause"), self-defense, and realism (some people may not like it, and that's okay). He won "big," but not "huge," which is a key TEAM moment—we don't settle for partial wins.

They then moved into role reversal, and this is where things deepened. When Ruben played the critic and David responded, David modeled a powerful combination of self-acceptance, counterattack, and refusal to buy into the critic's frame. He highlighted that the real problem wasn't slow speech—it was the constant inner criticism. Ruben immediately recognized this as a "huge" win.

Ruben then practiced again, this time integrating acceptance, values ("my heart is in the right place"), and counterattack ("the bigger problem is your nagging voice"). This time it felt huge.

Next, they targeted a different thought: "If I screw up, David will be disgusted and see I'm a worthless, selfish fraud." This brought up more anxiety, and Ruben got stuck. Jill did something very important here—she paused the method and returned to empathy, naming the pressure to "do it right" and the performance anxiety happening inside the exercise itself.

After empathy, they resumed. Jill modeled a powerful response in role reversal that included radical acceptance of imperfection ("I expect to screw up"), a growth mindset ("that's why I collect feedback"), and a reframe of failure as essential to learning. She also gently challenged the distortion of David as a harsh authority figure and emphasized choosing supportive learning environments. Ruben then extended this insight even further, saying, "the more I fail, the better… the more vulnerable I am, the less I appear like a fraud." This was a genuine shift.

They then moved into Feared Fantasy, with David playing "David from Hell," saying things like "you're incompetent," "you're worthless," and "you should find another profession." Ruben responded by using Be Specific, asking what exactly he had done wrong. When the answer became "you paused," the entire structure of the criticism collapsed. Ruben saw the absurdity and described the experience as a weight lifting. This is a classic TEAM moment—when global, harsh judgments are reduced to specific, manageable behaviors, they lose their power.

They extended this further with the thought "I'm wasting people's time." Through additional role plays, Ruben practiced self-defense and purpose clarification, David used humor and counterattack, and Jill demonstrated Be Specific in a very precise way—asking exactly how long a pause should be, exposing the irrationality of the standard.

The work then expanded to include the group. Participants used Externalization of Voices to challenge Ruben's thoughts, and Ruben responded with increasing strength and clarity, using self-acceptance and reversal of beliefs (for example, recognizing that vulnerability actually increases connection).

David then introduced the Survey Technique, asking Ruben to directly check his assumptions with the group. The responses were striking—people reported never noticing pauses, experiencing him as thoughtful and engaging, and feeling more connected because of his style. This directly disconfirmed his mind reading and labeling.

At the end, they returned to Testing. Anxiety went from 70 to 0, shame from 30 to 0, inadequacy from 80 to 10, embarrassment from 70 to 0, rejection from 40 to 0, and frustration from 30 to 0. Ruben reported that the change felt real and that his belief in the negative thoughts had dropped dramatically.

When asked what created the breakthrough, Ruben identified two key moments. First, a deep emotional realization that the goal is actually to make mistakes—that failure is not something to avoid but something to embrace. Second, a shift in how he saw authority figures—recognizing that the perceived gap between himself and others was distorted. As that sense of separation dissolved, so did much of the anxiety.

David highlighted that much of our suffering comes from that artificial separation—seeing others as powerful and ourselves as deficient. Jill added an important layer: when we assume others are harsh, judgmental, and critical, we are also distorting them, not just ourselves.

Some key clinical takeaways: Externalization of Voices becomes especially powerful when it includes emotion, repetition, and role reversal. Feared Fantasy works best when the criticism becomes specific and even a bit absurd. The Survey Technique is extremely effective for dismantling mind-reading. And often, breakthrough comes when patients fully embrace failure and let go of perfectionism.

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

You can reach Jill Levitt, PhD Jill Levitt . Jill is cofounder and Director of Clinical Training at The Feeling Good Institute (www.feelinggoodinstitute.com) in Mountain View, California.

Ruben Land is an Associate Social Worker at Feeling Good Institute. He provides psychotherapy, using TEAM-CBT, and is available to work with clients in California. You can reach Ruben at ruben@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit him online at this link.

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

The Moment You're in Matters More Than the One You Remember You Can Recover from Trauma by Focusing on the Present

Hosts:Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns

In this powerful episode, Dr. David Burns shares transformative insights from decades of clinical experience treating depression and trauma. Through compelling real-life stories, he challenges the traditional belief that healing requires deep exploration of the past. Instead, he reveals that you do not need to deal with the past to overcome the impact of trauma or recover from depression. Real change can happen rapidly by focusing on thoughts in the present moment.

You don't need to explore the past—even for trauma

Thoughts—not events—create emotional suffering

Rapid recovery is possible—even in severe cases

"You do not need to deal with the past to overcome the impact of trauma or recover from depression. All of your suffering is contained in how you're thinking in this moment—and when you change those thoughts, you can change how you feel immediately."

If you're struggling right now, there is hope—and possibly faster relief than you've been led to believe. You don't have to spend years digging into your past. By examining your thoughts in the present moment, you may already have everything you need to start feeling better today.

https://traffic.libsyn.com/feelinggood/Episode_504_-_Feeling_Good_Podcast.mp3

Have a question you'd like Dr. Burns to answer in a future episode?Submit it through the Feeling Great app or the Feeling Good Podcast website.

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Is it Time for a New Approach to Emotional Suffering? Advantages and Disadvantages of DSM Diagnoses

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns

In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. David Burns and host Kevin Cornelius, LMFT explore a topic that shapes nearly every corner of modern mental health care: psychiatric diagnosis.

For decades, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) has defined how clinicians diagnose, treat, and research emotional suffering. But what if many of these diagnostic categories don't represent distinct medical diseases? What if they are simply normal human emotions—like sadness, anxiety, or shame—occurring on a spectrum?

Dr. Burns draws on decades of clinical experience, research, and insights from TEAM-CBT to question the assumptions behind psychiatric labeling. While diagnoses can sometimes reduce stigma or help people access care, they can also unintentionally shape identity, medicalize everyday emotional struggles, and distract from the real drivers of emotional pain.

This episode offers a nuanced conversation about labels, measurement, therapy, and what actually helps people recover from depression and anxiety.

What the DSM is—and why it became so influential

The difference between true mental disorders and normal emotional experiences

How everyday struggles became medical diagnoses

The unintended consequences of diagnostic labels

Why measurement matters more than diagnosis in therapy

A surprising research finding

Why focusing on thoughts may be the key

Hope for people who feel defined by a diagnosis

While the episode critiques diagnostic labeling, the conversation also highlights situations where diagnoses can help:

Mental health diagnoses can sometimes be useful administrative tools—but they should never define who you are.

Real healing often comes from understanding the specific thoughts, moments, and experiences that drive emotional pain, and learning practical methods to change them.

"We treat humans, not disorders."

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, sharing the podcast, or leaving a review. It helps more people discover tools for overcoming depression and anxiety.

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

COMING UP IN JUNE: Fast Track to LEVEL 3 TEAM CBT Certification

Hi there! If you're a therapist looking to strengthen your TEAM CBT skills and earn continuing education credit, here's an exceptional opportunity coming up in June 2026.

Feeling Good Institute's Fast Track to Level 3 TEAM CBT Certification Starts June 22, 2026 • 25 weeks • 46 CEs

Special Offer for Podcast Listeners: Use discount code FRIEND for a course price of $795.

Learn More and Enroll Now at FastTrackCBT.com.

If you want to level up your therapy skills for the rest of your career, this may be the ideal time.

Ask David: Is High Speed Change a Quick Fix? Trauma, Anxiety, and What Really Works

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns Guest: Dr. Rhonda Barovsky

In this powerful Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns, Kevin Cornelius, and Dr. Rhonda Barovsky tackle two deeply important listener questions:

Is rapid emotional recovery just a "quick fix," especially for people with severe trauma? How can someone manage intense anxiety and "what if" thoughts in the moment—when they keep coming back?

Through vivid clinical stories, real examples from the Feeling Great app, and live demonstrations of TEAM-CBT techniques, the panel explores why working in the present moment can lead to profound and lasting emotional change—even for people with severe trauma histories.

Dr. Burns responds to a question inspired by the story of Elise, a Holocaust survivor who recovered from severe depression after challenging a single, devastating belief:

"I've never accomplished anything meaningful in my life."

When that belief was overturned, Elise's depression disappeared—immediately.

Listeners often wonder:

Dr. Burns shares:

He also discusses new findings (recently published in Psychology Today) showing that prior depression over the last two years adds zero predictive value once current mood and thoughts are addressed. "The moment you're in is vastly more important than the one you remember."

The second question comes from Dina, a college student overwhelmed by social anxiety and catastrophic "what if" thoughts about meeting with her professor.

Despite successfully completing a Daily Mood Log and reducing her anxiety to near zero, Dina finds that the thoughts keep returning in real-life situations.

The team explains why this happens—and what to do next.

Multiple techniques are demonstrated live, showing how anxiety collapses when fears are brought into the open with warmth, humor, and honesty.

Have a question you'd like Dr. Burns to answer on a future episode? Submit it through the Feeling Great app or the Feeling Good Podcast website.

Kevin, Rhonda, and I thank you for listening today!

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

Dr. Rhonda Barovsky is a Level 5 Certified TEAM-CBT Master Therapist and Trainer and specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. Check out her website: www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Ask David: Help! Relentless Anger! Nothing Works! Is Freedom of Speech a "Need?"

Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns Guest: Dr. Rhonda Barovsky

Today I am thrilled to be working with our new host for the Feeling Good Podcast, Mr. Kevin Cornelius, a dear friend and brilliant therapist who works as a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. Today, Keven starts a multi-podcast trial as our new host to find out how he likes the new position, and how you, are audience feel. It will be hard for anyone to fill Rhonda's shoes, of course, but Kevin brings his own combination of warmth, charm, and brilliance to the show. I hope you like the new show! Let us know what you think!

Today, we address three questions:

Question #1: How do you deal with a "relentlessly angry" patient who does not respond to the five secrets of effective communication?

Question #2: How can I deal with a patient who may have been triggered by my phone call when I had to change l a scheduled session?

Question #3: Zach asks if freedom of speech is a "want" or a "need."

Hi David and Kevin:

I have cleared my schedule so I can be there to support Kevin in his first podcast,.

I have two questions for the Ask David podcast:

1.) How do you handle a "relentlessly angry" patient? By that I mean, one of your patient's is upset with you, you respond with a skillful 5-secrets response and yet they continue being angry with you, even screaming at you for 30 minutes.

David's comment: The discussion of this excellent question got a little heated, as David pointed out that in his experience, when people say "I tried the Five Secrets and it didn't work," 100% of the time they did not actually do a skillful job with the Five Secrets. David asked for the familiar format: What is ONE thing the (angry) patient said, and what, EXACTLY, did you say next? Put this on a Relationship Journal and you will be able to spot your errors right away.

David reports that this format does tend to anger people who don't want to have to examine their own role in a relationship problem. The idea that they may have botched the Five Secrets appears to be deeply disturbing, hence the heated discussion today.

2.) How do you handle what is happening "in the here and now" immediate moment, the here and now, with your patient? For example, I had to change an appointment with a patient, she became really angry, and then cancelled her next appointment. One of my colleagues suggested that my patient might have felt triggered when I cancelled the appointment. My colleague suggested I talk to her about what happened when I asked her to change the appointment because if she felt abandoned by me she might have the same experience with other people. How would I bring up what is happening in our relationship with my patient, that they may also experience in other relationships?

I could probably think of a few more,

Rhonda

3) Dear Dr. Burns,

Hello. I hope this message finds you well. I'm writing to ask you a question that has been on my mind.

You have mentioned before that freedom of speech is an important part of your value system. I'm curious about how you would frame it psychologically: do you see freedom of speech more as a want, or as a need?

Relatedly, for people living in non-democratic countries, do you think it is still possible to achieve a high level of happiness without freedom of speech?

I would greatly appreciate your thoughts when you have the time. Thank you very much for your work and for sharing your perspectives.

Warm regards,

Zack

David's Comment: This led to a lively discussion and a consensus on our panel today. We decided that freedom of speech is a great thing, and a strong want, but not a "need." David added: "I am certain that you can find happiness by focusing on the things most important to you, but no one can be happy all the time. We desperately WANT, but definitely do not NEED, freedom of speech. Of course, you can say, "we need it to have a fully functioning democracy," and that is true, but it true by definition.

Kevin, Rhonda, and David thank you for listening today. Again, let us know what you think!

Please use this link to take a very brief survey and share your opinion with us about this episode

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.

Dr. Rhonda Barovsky is a Level 5 Certified TEAM-CBT Master Therapist and Trainer and specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. Check out her website: www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com.

You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Feeling Great feels wonderful!

You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!

Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

In this very special 500th episode of the Feeling Good Podcast, Matt May, Jill Levitt and I pause to celebrate a remarkable milestone, our 500th episode of the Feeling Good podcast, and to honor someone who has been at the heart of it for the past 273 episodes: Rhonda Barovsky

Since stepping into the role of host, Rhonda has brought warmth, wisdom, curiosity, and deep compassion to every conversation. Her presence has helped shape the podcast into a trusted space for learning, healing, personal growth, and building the TEAM community. Week after week, she has guided thoughtful discussions on mood, relationships, anxiety, depression, and the many challenges of being human—with authenticity and grace.

Rhonda's unique ability to ask meaningful questions, highlight practical tools, and connect with listeners has made an immeasurable impact. Whether exploring TEAM CBT techniques or sharing personal reflections, she has helped countless listeners feel seen, understood, and empowered.

As Rhonda steps down from her role as host, this episode is dedicated to celebrating her contributions and expressing deep gratitude for all she has given to this community.

In this episode, we:

This is not goodbye—it's a transition. Rhonda leaves behind a powerful legacy and a strong foundation that will continue to inspire future episodes and listeners around the world.

Thank you, Rhonda, for your dedication, your heart, and your unwavering commitment to helping people feel better.

And to our listeners: thank you for being part of these 500 episodes. We're so glad you're here—and we're excited for what comes next as Kevin Cornelius steps into the role of the Feeling Good Podcast host. Welcome, Kevin!

Warmly,

David, Rhonda, Matt and Jill

Inside the Therapy Room: A Live TEAM CBT Session with Hiral-- The Exciting Conclusion! Part 2 of 2

Overview

What an incredible day. David and I had the privilege of working with Hiral, a young mother from India who was drowning in perfectionism, self-criticism, and the crushing weight of trying to be everything to everyone. Over the course of about two hours, we watched her transform from someone scoring 100% on depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, and hopelessness to feeling peaceful, relaxed, and genuinely joyful—with most scores dropping to zero.

This wasn't magic. It was TEAM-CBT done systematically, with measurement, genuine empathy, paradoxical agenda setting, and powerful cognitive techniques. And yes, Hiral did most of the heavy lifting herself once we got out of her way.

For those of you who attended or are reading this summary, I want to walk you through what happened—not just what we did, but why it worked. Because here's the thing: this will look deceptively simple. That's the trap. TEAM-CBT is among the hardest therapeutic approaches to master, precisely because each step exists on multiple levels and requires you to change before your patients can change.

Let's dig in.

The Setup: Who Was Hiral?

Hiral is a mother of an almost-four-year-old son, living in a joint family in Gujarat, India, with her husband and in-laws. She's also studying to become a TEAM-CBT therapist herself, preparing for her Level 3 certification exam.

But beneath these roles, Hiral was suffering:

Sound familiar? I'll bet many of you have worked with someone like Hiral. Or maybe you've been Hiral at some point in your life. I know I have.

T = Testing: The Emotional X-Ray

Before we even said hello to Hiral, she completed the Brief Mood Survey—David's ultra-reliable, ultra-short measures of depression, anxiety, anger, happiness, and relationship satisfaction right now, in this moment.

Her scores were staggering:

Why this matters: Most therapists never measure how their patients feel. They think they know, but research shows therapist accuracy is around 3-10% on depression, suicidality, anxiety, and anger. Zero percent on suicidal urges. Think about that.

Without measurement, you're flying blind. With it, you have an emotional X-ray that shows you exactly where the patient is hurting—and later, exactly how much you've helped (or haven't).

TEAM-CBT Pearl: Testing isn't optional. It's the foundation. Measure at the start of every session, and measure again at the end. If you're scared to see the results, that's your ego talking.

E = Empathy: The Zero Technique

For the first 30-40 minutes, David and I did... nothing. Well, not nothing—we listened. We used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication:

Disarming Technique: Finding truth in what Hiral said Thought Empathy: Paraphrasing her thoughts Feeling Empathy: Acknowledging her emotions Inquiry: Asking gentle questions to help her open up Stroking: Conveying warmth and respect

But here's the key: we gave her nothing. No advice. No cheerleading. No problem-solving. We call this the Zero Technique—giving the patient nothing is actually giving them everything, because what they want most is to feel understood.

The Empathy Pitfall: DO NOT PREACH

Early in empathy, it's tempting to:

Resist. Your job is to go with your patient to the gates of hell and just be with them there.

Checking Our Empathy

After about 30 minutes, we asked Hiral to grade us on three dimensions (A, B, C, D, or F):

Thought Empathy: How well did we understand her negative thoughts? Feeling Empathy: How well did we acknowledge her emotions? Warmth & Acceptance: Did she feel cared about and accepted?

She gave us two A's and hesitated on the third. Why? She didn't feel we could truly understand her cultural context—the joint family system, the rigid in-laws, the isolation from her friends and parents. She felt alone even with us.

This was gold.

Instead of getting defensive, we leaned in. David shared his own experience living near in-laws with vastly different values. I shared my own struggles with perfectionism and parenting anxiety. Hiral started to cry—not from sadness, but from finally feeling seen.

TEAM-CBT Pearl: When you get a failing grade on empathy, celebrate. It's your chance to deepen the connection. Process the failure with your patient, and watch the breakthrough happen.

Inside the Therapy Room: A Live TEAM CBT Session with Hiral Part 1 of 2

Overview

What an incredible day. David and I had the privilege of working with Hiral, a young mother from India who was drowning in perfectionism, self-criticism, and the crushing weight of trying to be everything to everyone. Over the course of about two hours, we watched her transform from someone scoring 100% on depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, and hopelessness to feeling peaceful, relaxed, and genuinely joyful—with most scores dropping to zero.

This wasn't magic. It was TEAM-CBT done systematically, with measurement, genuine empathy, paradoxical agenda setting, and powerful cognitive techniques. And yes, Hiral did most of the heavy lifting herself once we got out of her way.

For those of you who attended or are reading this summary, I want to walk you through what happened—not just what we did, but why it worked. Because here's the thing: this will look deceptively simple. That's the trap. TEAM-CBT is among the hardest therapeutic approaches to master, precisely because each step exists on multiple levels and requires you to change before your patients can change.

Let's dig in.

The Setup: Who Was Hiral?

Hiral is a mother of an almost-four-year-old son, living in a joint family in Gujarat, India, with her husband and in-laws. She's also studying to become a TEAM-CBT therapist herself, preparing for her Level 3 certification exam.

But beneath these roles, Hiral was suffering:

Sound familiar? I'll bet many of you have worked with someone like Hiral. Or maybe you've been Hiral at some point in your life. I know I have.

T = Testing: The Emotional X-Ray

Before we even said hello to Hiral, she completed the Brief Mood Survey—David's ultra-reliable, ultra-short measures of depression, anxiety, anger, happiness, and relationship satisfaction right now, in this moment.

Her scores were staggering:

Why this matters: Most therapists never measure how their patients feel. They think they know, but research shows therapist accuracy is around 3-10% on depression, suicidality, anxiety, and anger. Zero percent on suicidal urges. Think about that.

Without measurement, you're flying blind. With it, you have an emotional X-ray that shows you exactly where the patient is hurting—and later, exactly how much you've helped (or haven't).

TEAM-CBT Pearl: Testing isn't optional. It's the foundation. Measure at the start of every session, and measure again at the end. If you're scared to see the results, that's your ego talking.

E = Empathy: The Zero Technique

For the first 30-40 minutes, David and I did... nothing. Well, not nothing—we listened. We used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication:

Disarming Technique: Finding truth in what Hiral said Thought Empathy: Paraphrasing her thoughts Feeling Empathy: Acknowledging her emotions Inquiry: Asking gentle questions to help her open up Stroking: Conveying warmth and respect

But here's the key: we gave her nothing. No advice. No cheerleading. No problem-solving. We call this the Zero Technique—giving the patient nothing is actually giving them everything, because what they want most is to feel understood.

The Empathy Pitfall: DO NOT PREACH

Early in empathy, it's tempting to:

Resist. Your job is to go with your patient to the gates of hell and just be with them there.

Checking Our Empathy

After about 30 minutes, we asked Hiral to grade us on three dimensions (A, B, C, D, or F):

Thought Empathy: How well did we understand her negative thoughts? Feeling Empathy: How well did we acknowledge her emotions? Warmth & Acceptance: Did she feel cared about and accepted?

She gave us two A's and hesitated on the third. Why? She didn't feel we could truly understand her cultural context—the joint family system, the rigid in-laws, the isolation from her friends and parents. She felt alone even with us.

This was gold.

Instead of getting defensive, we leaned in. David shared his own experience living near in-laws with vastly different values. I shared my own struggles with perfectionism and parenting anxiety. Hiral started to cry—not from sadness, but from finally feeling seen.

TEAM-CBT Pearl: When you get a failing grade on empathy, celebrate. It's your chance to deepen the connection. Process the failure with your patient, and watch the breakthrough happen.

Next week, Part 2, the exciting conclusion of the live session with Hiral!

Why Isn't TEAM More Popular? Why Do So Many Therapists Resist TEAM CBT? Featuring Matt May, MD

Why has the therapeutic community been so resistant to TEAM? This topic has been a concern to me or many years. To be honest, it isn't new. From the very start of cognitive therapy, when I was first learning it, I began modifying it to make it more dynamic, powerful, and effective. But to be honest, I ran into a small (at the time) of Beck loyalists who branded me as an "outsider," something Beck also did when my book, Feeling Good, began to sell and gain popularity. This saddened and frustrated me, and still does, but it had some great spin-off. On my own, my ideas and approaches grew rapidly, and there was no scarcity of young therapists who wanted to work with me.

Below, you will ready Matt's take on why TEAM CBT has not caught on better, followed by my own thoughts. So read, and enjoy, and feel free to share your own thinking on this topic!

On the live podcast, you will hear our lively discussion with our beloved and brilliant host, Rhonda! Thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda, and David

Matt's take:

Hi David,

I'm excited to discuss this topic! Also, I agree we would be hard-pressed to cover it in an hour, which I believe is the goal for the podcast.

So, why isn't TEAM isn't more popular? My short answer is that TEAM isn't more popular because many therapists don't want to learn it. Those reasons will vary from one person to another and relate to concepts in the model, itself, like 'process resistance' and 'outcome resistance'.

While biological factors, like deficits in cognitive flexibility and neuroplasticity, the 'primacy effect' and age-related changes in the brain, combined with the complexity of the TEAM model, will make it near-impossible for some folks to learn it, these barriers are hard to address with our current technology

For the purpose of this conversation, it probably makes more sense to consider the psychological barriers therapists have to adopting a model that is scientifically proven to be superior to other approaches.

As a proponent of TEAM and an instructor, I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong, in presenting the model and how to get more people excited about learning it. While more research would help us see the problem more clearly, here are some factors that likely play a role:

It seems humans have a hard time adopting new truths, regardless of the field being considered. I believe it was Schopenhauer who said all new truths go through three phases on the way to acceptance: People will ridicule it, violently oppose it, then say they knew it all along as self-evident! One cause of this is something called the 'primacy effect'. People preferentially retain the first version of a story they hear. If that information is corrected, later, they will continue to believe the first version they heard. Biological Factors play a role in learning, including genetics, aging, illness and toxic exposure. 'Switching gears', mentally, is more challenging in people with Schizophrenia and their first-degree relatives, for example. We know that neuroplasticity is greatest in our youth and declines over our lifespan. Hence the importance of early education and attending to our overall health, habits, nutrition and medical care. Socioeconomic and Cultural factors certainly play a role. This is well documented in the book, 'The Emperor's New Drugs', showing how marketing prevailed over science in promoting "antidepressants". Many therapists in training tell me, 'oh, they wouldn't let me use a measurement tool where I work'. Lack of 'Critical Thinking'. What people believe often has nothing to do with what is evidence-based or logical. Many people reject global warming despite the evidence and prefer to believe in conspiracy theories. We tend to preferentially believe what someone says if we feel a kinship or loyalty to that person or view them as an 'expert'. People might believe RFK Jr. when he says immunizations are dangerous, for example, because he is in their political party and in a position of power, rather than review the science for themselves. Sunk-Cost Fallacy: People who have gone through training may have a sense that they have invested too much time and money in their education to discard that model and start afresh.

Even if we covered this in just a few minutes, we'd still be up against the hardest part of TEAM to learn, Agenda Setting. Lots of 'Good Reasons' NOT to have open hands, explore topics paradoxically, and reasons this is challenging, technically.

So, yeah, we'll have a lot to discuss and I'm looking forward to that!

Sincerely,

Matt

Here is David's list

Taking a page out of your book, Matt, our field is filled with so-called "schools" of therapy that function much like cults, most with a narcissistic "leader" at the helm. In a cult, members are required to be absolutely loyal, and to believe in claims the guru makes that have little or no evidence to back them up. For example, most "schools" of therapy claim to know "the" cause of emotional distress, when the causes of depression and other forms of emotional disturbance are still not known.

What I have been suggesting is that we get rid of all the schools of therapy and usher in a new era of science-based, data-driven therapy, which would amount to a revolution in our field. This idea, which I feel passionate about, always meets with stiff and hostel opposition / push back. People just don't want to hear it.

TEAM integrates high-level empathy and compassion with firm accountability. Give Stanford story with Sunny Choi, and the statement that "Stanford graduate students and faculty cannot be held accountable for doing psychotherapy homework. The need insight-oriented therapy!" This angrily issued statement conveyed, actually, two cult-like (to my thinking) components: First, we KNOW that patients should not be asked to do psychotherapy homework between sessions. Second, we KNOW that "insight-oriented therapy" is the treatment, without ever evaluating them. TEAM focuses on the here and now, and emphasize a "fractal" approach to treatment, where the same distortions and self-defeating beliefs will be embedded in the patient's negative thoughts and feelings every time she or he is upset. So, when you change the present, you have already changed the past. Whereas most therapies have traditionally (and still) focus on the past, thinking they will find the cause of the patient's distress in some pattern or traumatic event. TEAM focuses on rapid change in the here and now, where as many (most?) therapies focus on talk therapy that unfolds slowly, over a period of months, years, or even more. This DOES provide a powerful financial incentive to do "talk therapy," since this drastically provides financial security and reduces the incredible pressure of constantly have to find new patients. TEAM is very challenging to learn. I have taught over 50,000 therapists in the past 35 years or more, through my supervision of graduate students and psychiatric residents, my weekly training group at Stanford, and my workshops, including intensive, around the US and Canada.

And one lesson that has emerged is just how difficult it is to learn TEAM. It requires a high level of intelligence and aptitude, and an unusual dedication and commitment. A great many of the most important tools, like Assessment of Resistance, and Externalization of Voices with the CAT, Self-Defense, and the Acceptance Paradox, are extremely difficult to learn and master. And most give up, and drop out, in favor of some simpler and more formulaic therapy that is easy to learn.

TEAM training requires constant role-playing with specific and immediate feedback on your performance, which includes bot a letter grade (A, B, C, etc.) as well as what you did that was effective, and where you fell short and might need to fine-tune your technique with frequent role reversals, always with feedback. This means lots of criticism along the way, which many (most?) therapists do not like. And although we repeatedly emphasize the philosophy of "joyous failure," and "learning through failure," most people do not buy it emotionally. We all want success and compliments! And NOT the "great death" of the self." The "great death" permeates every phase of the T E A M process. At the T = Testing, you will nearly always learn that your perceptions of your patients feel, and how they feel about you, are way off base. This is critically important, but painful for most, as it is a direct body blow to our "need" to be in the role of "expert."

Unlike most other forms of therapy, we require therapists to measure patients' feelings, "in the here and now," at the start and end of every therapy session, using brief, highly reliable scales that assess feelings of depression, suicidal urges, anxiety, anger, and also happiness, as well as relationship satisfaction or discord. These scales function like an "emotional X-ray machine," allowing therapists for the first time to see exactly how effective or ineffective you were in every therapy session.

Can you take it?

On the positive side, this information will allow you to fine tune the therapy and learn from all of your patients every day. On the negative side, you may not want to have to "see" your failures before your eyes at every session with every patient. David: Tell the story of Tuesday group patient who proudly showed me her depression (and other scores) over the previous year with one of her patients. . . But there was absolutely no improvement in any scale.

This was shocking and it made me very sad. My goal is to get dramatic changes within a single session.

This "great death" continues during the E phase. TEAM therapists are required to ask "What's my grade on empathy" during the session, and also patients fill out the Empathy Scale and other scales on the "Patient's Evaluation of Therapy Session" right after the session. These scales are set up to make therapist failure common, almost universal at first. A warm and curious dialogue about where the therapist went wrong can revolutionize the therapy and deepen the relationship—quickly. But at what cost to the fragile ego of the insecure shrink? The "great death" continues with A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting. You give up your role as the "expert:" or "helper" or "rescuer," which many therapist refuse to do, and instead "become" the patient's subconscious resistance, arguing, with compassion and logic, that there are many GOOD reasons NOT to change.

This freaks therapists out!

The "great death" continues with the M = Methods phase of the session. I have developed roughly 140 methods to help people challenge distorted negative thoughts and self-defeating beliefs, and have always taught that no one method will work for everyone who's depressed and anxious. So you will have to try many methods, using the Recovery Circle, to find the one that works for each patient.

But these methods are challenging to learn, and most therapists don't seem to have the intelligence, aptitude, or commitment to learning how to use them.

Many of the methods and insights of TEAM or subtle nuances that many therapists do not "get" or perhaps do not want to "get." Example, the ACT training group, where someone held up the Feeling Good book and said, "We do not want THIS!" They falsely believed that "leaning into" your feelings is always the answer, and wrong believed that TEAM tried to make people happy all the time—called Toxic Positivity—whereas nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, I mentioned healthy negative feelings as early as, I think, Chapter 3 in Feeling Good, "Sadness is Not Depression," where I told the story of an elderly man who died on the Stanford inpatient medical service one evening when I was a medical student. Much of what I teach is shocking and at odds with what people are taught in graduate school. For example, the idea that most people with depression and anxiety—NOT everybody!—can be effectively treated in a single, extended therapy session.

Curses! That sounds horrible!

And even worse-sounding is the idea that change typically happens suddenly, at the very moment patients stop believing their distorted thoughts.

Of course, since most therapists have not seen these phenomena, due perhaps to not having the skill, they insist instead that David is some type of fool, liar, or con artis.

Okee Dokee!

People—therapists and patients alike—do not "get" a great many of the key ideas in TEAM. For example, let's say the socially anxious patient totally believes the thought, "I shouldn't be so screwed up!" the necessary and sufficient conditions for emotional change.

There is even more of what I teach is shocking and at odds with what people believe. For example, 2,000 years ago Epictetus stated they key premise of all the cognitive therapies: "People are disturbed, not by things, or events, but by the views they have of them". And recently, our research team has provided proof of this for the first time, in a study of nearly 7,000 users of our Feeling Great app, using sophisticated statistical modeling techniques.

So, the three tenants of cognitive therapies, including TEAM, are:

But lots of people will won't have it. They keep insisting on theories that simply aren't true—that emotions cause thoughts, for example—and on methods that may have little or no "punch" above and beyond the placebo effect. Story of Tuesday group student who was scolded in her graduate school counseling program for using the words "thought" or cognition during a therapy session. She was told ONLY to focus on feelings.

Many people—therapists and patients alike—strongly believe that therapist empathy is THE key to healing. I have developed many powerful empathy tracking and training methods, but our clinical experience and research has shown, over and over, that therapist empathy is NOT the key to healing. They keys involve using TEAM systematically, and the rapid healing happens during the A and M for the most part. But those are the hard parts! Other problems include the idea that we can convert normal human emotional distress into a series of "mental disorders" that are listed in the DSM, the "bible" of the American Psychiatric Association. In TEAM, we consider each patient's patterns of suffering at the start of therapy, quickly and easily screened by the EASY Diagnostic System, but monitor therapy and patient progress with simple tools that measure feelings, like depression, anxiety, anger, and more. But this is an argument for another day.

There's a lot more issues, too. Have I, David, contributed to the resistance to TEAM? Absolutely I have. I plead guilty as accused, and I'm proud of it. I'm totally aware that people—maybe even you— get turned off by criticism, and naturally recoil to protect your "in group," as Matt so clearly pointed out, and maintain loyalty to your "leader," whether it's Freud, Jung, Beck, Hayes, Rogers, or whoever.

People are more emotional than rational, and people can be intentionally cruel and deceptive, too, all in the name of what they believe. We see that in our politics these days too. People believe things that are totally false, and wildly implausible, because the group or leader says it's true, it's the way things are.

I'm a strong believer that science and truth will win out in the long run. Is this inevitable? I'm not totally confident, and have my doubts, but I am also filled with hope, and look to a future with more therapists like our beloved Matt May, MD and others who have dared to venture in a radically new direction, much like the early astronomers like Galileo and Copernicus who dared to challenge the superstitious teachings of the Catholic church.

Those brave and brilliant early souls said, "things are NOT the way you think!" And they used data and mathematical modeling to prove their points. But there were a hundreds years of intimidation and suffering until people finally began to catch on to the then-ridiculous and outrageous ideas that the sun does NOT actually revolve around the earth, and that the earth is NOT the center of the universe.

Those NOTS changed history. Can it happen again in the fields of psychiatry and psychotherapy? I hope so, and I've been giving my all, in my teaching, research, clinical work and writing, to make this happen. Sadly, I've fallen far short of my dream, but I'm thankful every day for what I've got, and the wonderful colleagues I'm privileged to know and love.

Warmly,

David, Matt and Rhonda

Should Therapists Express Their Feelings? Freud's Huge Error! Featuring Matt May, MD

Today we touch base on a really important and highly controversial question: Should therapists express their feelings? Or remain blank slates, as Freud so strongly recommended.

We begin with a scholarly and really interesting (oxymoron?) piece that Matt wrote about Freud's own fear of sharing his feelings, and how that led to the huge mistake called psychoanalysis.

At the end of this piece, I will briefly summarize the podcast.

Matt's piece here

Matt began by describing a fascinating case of a woman who had a functional neurological disorder. She appeared, in other words, to be unable to walk, but her walking problem was entirely caused by her mind.

Often this type of problem is due to the "Hidden Emotion" phenomenon, where the patient is hiding some powerful feeling—from themselves and others—and then that feeling comes out indirectly, as some form of anxiety (very common) or even as a neurological problem, such as apparent paralysis in a limb.

Matt, can you briefly summarize your thinking on how her symptoms may have been due to suppressed anger?

During the session, the concept of anger came up, and the husband became agitated, and started pounding angrily on the desk. Clearly, of course, his wife was also terrified of him, one of the key dynamics in their dysfunctional marriage.

Matt was scared, and decided to say, "I feel scared right now." The man calmed down instantly. She, too, had been afraid of expressing her feelings.

Matt and Rhonda talked about effective and ineffective ways of expressing your feelings. Like everything else in the universe, "I Feel" statements are a two-edged sword.

What Matt said—"I feel scared"—was a human statement of vulnerability that did not threaten this many in any way. Matt's humanness allowed him to lower his defenses and open up as well.

But saying, "I feel controlled," is actually a hidden criticism of the other person, and it will nearly always trigger more aggression and anger.

They also discussed setting boundaries, another highly controversial topic, because much of the time, when therapists (or anyone) attempt to set boundaries, it comes across as an attempt to control the other person, to tell them what they can and cannot do, and that has a high probability of triggering more anger, and is an invitation to violate the annoying "limit" you are trying to set.

Matt described a common and frustrating dynamic: a woman who kept "forgetting" to do her psychotherapy homework, and instead kept chasing a man who treated her badly. Of course, her behavior caused him to become even more aggressive and abusive.

Matt: what was your point here? I didn't get it in my notes. Any help appreciated! You can be brief, as many words tends to intimidate me.

In contrast, a statement like "I'm feeling hurt right now," is vastly less powerful, since it is simply a gentle, non-aggressive way, of showing how you feel.

But by the same token, it is often vastly more powerful than attempts to set limits.

These are complicated topics, easily misunderstood. For more information, check out my book Feeling Good Together.

Warmly, David, Rhonda and Matt

Hello! Dr. Jill Levitt and I have an amazing full-day CE workshop on changing core beliefs coming up in a few weeks. If you've ever struggled with Perfectionism, Perceived Perfectionism, or the Love, Achievement, or Approval Addictions, you're going to love this all-new workshop called The Deeper Dimension in CBT. Sign up now at CBT-Workshop.com.

📅 Friday, April 24, 2026

🕛 8:30 AM – 4:30 PM PT

CE Workshop for Therapists

$195

Register Here: CBT-Workshop.com

This workshop will include new teaching and treatment techniques, and we'll go much further than any previous presentations on Core Beliefs.

Learning therapy is much like learning to ride a bicycle. You've got to get on and ride. Book learning won't help.

That's why you'll work through your own Self-Defeating Beliefs during this highly interactive workshop. As you change, the tools for helping your clients will become crystal clear.

We'll also answer the question: where do you go next once you decide to give up your Self-Defeating Beliefs?

You'll walk away from this amazing workshop with concrete, easy-to-use tools you can apply in your very next therapy session and in your life as well. You'll also experience a profound and exciting shift in your personal philosophy.

#495 Stop Helping! Here's How. Featuring Thai-An Truong on Codependency

Thai-An Truong, LPC, LADC is a Certified TEAM-CBT Trainer, Level 5 and loves sharing tools and processes to help other therapists feel more confident, effective, and joyful in their work with their clients. In her private practice in Oklahoma, she is passionate about helping people heal from past trauma and OCD. She also has a special interest in helping her clients improve their relationships and overall connection with their partners and loved ones.

We often hear the word, co-dependency thrown around. Today's podcast will be unique: you'll hear a totally brilliant and lucid explanation of how to treat it within the TEAM CBT model. It will be explained and illustrated with role-playing demonstrations by Rhonda and Thai-An. These demonstrations are fantastic! You'll love them!

But let's start with what codependency is. I'll give you my take on it first, as my understanding has been based on observation. I see it as the compulsive urge to help another person who appears to be hurting or struggling.

Well, that's nothing wrong with that, for sure! But where it gets yucky is where there is an ongoing pattern of helping, followed by stuckness on the part of the person who is hurting, ending up with both parties feeling frustrated and angry.

We've talked about this general topic a great deal on the show, and in fact, TEAM CBT emerged as a radical alternative to the compulsive, codependent "helping" we often see in the community of mental health professionals. And we've seen this too, among parents and their children. Rhonda and I have done many podcasts on the topic of "How to Help and How NOT to Help," (for example, #164: https://feelinggood.com/2019/10/28/164-how-to-help-and-how-not-to-help/). And we've done many, including a great recent podcast with Dr. Taylor Chesney, on how parents can talk to teens and children without trying to control or scold them—by forming a warm and respectful relationship, using the Five Secrets.

According to a Google search, codependency involves

"excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, often characterized by neglecting one's own needs. The four main types of codependency are the Caretaker, Enabler, Controller, and Adjuster. These roles represent different ways individuals, often with low self-esteem, sacrifice their well-being to manage relationships."

To get things started, Rhonda and Thai-An discuss he various definitions and meanings of co-dependency. Thai-An described an attractive woman she treated who ended up with an alcoholic man who gave her very little in terms of healthy emotional support or love. But she told herself, "He's the only one who's there for me. , , I won't be able to find anyone else."

There's also a strong dimension of "I NEED to fix this person," as opposed to asking if they need help, and deciding whether you can actually meet their need.

They also pointed out, with example, that "throwing help at people" (as I call it) actually forces them to resist.

They talked about the shame involved in codependency, and then illustrated Option B: TEAM -CBT, where empathy is always a crucially important first step. Then you can move to the Triple Paradox, to help the codependent patient illuminate three crucial motivational pieces:

Column 1: The positive rewards of trying to "help" this person.

Column 2: The downside of changing and giving up this pattern.

Column 3: What your codependency shows about you and your core values as a human being that's positive and awesome.

Then after listing 20 to 30 or more powerful reasons to continue acting in a codependent manner, you can ask them if it's working for them, or if they can think of any reasons to change. So, right away, you are modeling a totally anti-codependent way of "helping" your codependent patient.

Only then, if the patient can convince you that they really do want help, Thai-An and Rhonda modeled some kick-ass M = Methods that can be incredibly helpful, including, but not at all limited to:

And many more.

I want to thank you, Thai-An, and you, Rhonda, for a truly phenomenal podcast today. Awesome work!

From Rhonda: Speaking for me and Thai-An, it was our pleasure and honor to be on the podcast with you David! And always a pleasure to learn with the brilliant Thai-An, one of the most phenomenal teachers and trainers in the TEAM community.

What if the old techniques don't work now? What can I do if I'm boring on dating apps? How do I balance TEAM CBT with Life? Do relapses come from out of the blue?

Carlos continues with his question(s) first addressed on last week's podcast. He'd recovered from depression using TEAM CBT, but had a question about how to challenge his negative thoughts during a relapse, as well as how to balance TEAM CBT with life. Plus a dating question from a man who's never had a date!

Today's questions begin here.

Should I use a brand-new CBT technique to help me overcome my current negative thoughts?

I've been using my previous solutions (Exposure Therapy and Daily Mood Log) however, they don't seem to help out as much as they used to.

How do I balance Team CBT and life?

I've been having a difficult time finding the right balance between Therapy and Life. Whenever I strictly do therapy, I feel good, but then feel sad that I sacrifice other activities in order to do the therapy. Inversely, whenever I do activities (while only occasionally doing therapy), I feel conned by my anxiety and feel as if I can't enjoy doing my activities.

Can you relapse despite having no apparent issues in life?

I'm currently on Christmas break, without much pressure to find a job. Yet despite this, I'm feeling more anxious right now than I was in university! How is this possible? Is there perhaps a hidden emotion or desire that I'm not expressing?

Regardless of how negative I feel right now, I'm doing my absolute best to stay positive and keep working on myself with Team CBT. I'm looking forward to resolving my anxiety with the help of your awesome tools! It was an honor speaking with you, thank you for reading!

-Carlos

David's Answer

Great question, and I'll give you a (hopefully) great answer on the podcast! But here's the quickie answer. Focus on one specific moment when you'd like to be feeling happier, or when you need help to become the person you want to be. Then use a Daily Mood Log, Habit / Addiction Log (HAL), or Relationship Journal, depending on what's needed.

This is the exact same fractal concept we use in all of TEAM CBT!

Warmly, david

I am overly sincere and boring on dating apps. What can I do to correct this?

Michael writes: Hi Dr burns

I am 30 and never dated anyone. Whenever I start chatting on dating apps I seem very boring or sincere person how can I talk to someone in this?

Regards,

Michael (disguised name)

What can I do if I relapse?

Good Morning Dr. Burns,

I will make this email quick, as I'm sure you have several other emails to read through.

First off, thank you so much for your research and contributions to TEAM CBT! My mother introduced me to this form of therapy in 2022, and it has been a big help in overcoming my extremely painful perfectionism anxiety. Unfortunately, after graduating from university, I've begun relapsing once again. As such, I would like to ask a few things

Carlos:

(His remaining questions will be answered on Podcast 494.)

Is it harder to get out of a relapse than the first time?

I feel as if my relapse has been a lot trickier to get out of, despite the fact I have more tools and techniques.

David's response.

This depends entirely on whether you've done Relapse Prevention Training to prepare for relapses ahead of time. You can read all about it in the last chapter of my most recent book, Feeling Great. You can also learn about RPT on a number of podcasts, and even hear me doing it live with many individuals at the end of their personal work. Here are two examples randomly chosen among dozens I have published.

427: https://feelinggood.com/2024/12/16/426-ask-david-dreading-the-day-solving-mother-daughter-problems-romance-and-more/

389: https://feelinggood.com/2024/03/25/389-the-story-of-amy-part-2-of-2/

And you'll a great many more if you look. Just use the search function on my website and you'll find a wealth of podcasts on RPT.

Short answer: If you HAVE recovered and done RPT (takes 30 minutes) it will usually be much easier for you to smash your negative thought(s), using the same methods that helped you the first time.

If you HAVEN'T recovered and done RPT, it may be much more challenging.

Thanks for the important question, Carlos!

Download the incredible Feeling Great app today for FREE at FeelingGreat.com! This is my $99 GIFT for you.

- Dr. David Burns

Meet the Fantastic—and Controversial—Dr. David Healy Psychiatric Drug Companies-- What Are They NOT Telling Us?

Today, we are thrilled to interview the famed and courageous Dr. David Healy. I have admired his work for many years, but never imagined I'd have the chance to meet him and chat with him.

First things first. You may know Dr. David Healy for some of his highly controversial books, like "The Antidepressant Era," "Let Them Eat Prozac," and "Pharmageddon."

But who is he, really?

According to AI,

Dr. David Healy is a prominent Welsh psychiatrist, psychopharmacologist, and critic of the pharmaceutical industry known for his research on antidepressants, their links to suicide, and exposing industry practices like ghostwriting and disease-mongering, operating through initiatives like RxISK.org to promote drug safety. He has a long history of challenging Big Pharma, facing academic backlash (like losing a University of Toronto post) for his views, and serving as an expert witness in legal cases involving psychotropic drugs, advocating for greater transparency and patient safety.

Healy initially worked with pharmaceutical companies, gaining firsthand knowledge of how SSRIs were marketed despite their trial weaknesses, focusing on the oversimplified serotonin hypothesis.

He then became a vocal critic, highlighting issues like ghostwriting articles and manipulating academic opinion to sell drugs, leading to conflicts with industry-funded institutions.

He founded RxISK.org, a platform for patients to report adverse drug reactions, aiming to make medicines safer.

His strong stance (on research linking SSRI antidepressants to increased suicidal thoughts and urges) led to intense and corrosive controversy, including losing a professorship at the University of Toronto (though later settled as a visiting role) and harassment, noted here and here.

In recent years, he has acted as an expert witness in cases involving drug-related suicides and homicides, bringing issues to regulators.

In essence, Dr. David Healy is a significant, often controversial, figure dedicated to drug safety, academic integrity, and patient awareness in psychiatry, challenging established narratives and industry power.

Taking a deeper dive, AI has added this critically important information:

David Healy has discussed numerous examples of conflicts of interest that mainly involve the influence of the pharmaceutical industry on medical research, publication, and practice.

Key examples he has highlighted include:

So that hopefully gives you some idea of the scope of his work, and his vision of transparency and integrity in the reporting one the effectiveness and risks of psychotropic medications. In our conversation today, he emphasized the importance of listening to patients who describe side effects of medications, such as SSRIs, in described the efforts of Big Pharma to suppress such complaints, giving psychiatrists "talking points" to reassure and quiet concerned patients.

In general, a main focus of his career has been to challenge and confront the efforts of drug companies to suppress negative information about their products and troublesome and dangerous side effects. He said that one of the rationales the drug companies use is to say that disseminating that type of information will discourage many potential patients from using their products, and therefore miss out on the potential benefits of the medications. In fact, they have a name for this, "treatment hesitancy," and discourage open discussion of negative effects for this reason.

I asked Dr. Healy if he's experienced direct negative pushback from drug companies, and he gave a surprising answer—he said no, that the major pushback he's gotten has actually been from colleagues—psychiatrists who have bought the party line disseminated by the drug manufactures.

For example, when he gave his famous talk at the University of Toronto on the increase in suicidal urges associated with SSRI antidepressants, a famous psychopharmacologist, Dr. Charlie Nemeroff, got him fired.

Here's the story on Dr. Nemeroff, According to AI:

In the late 2000s, Nemeroff faced investigations and sanctions from Emory University for failing to disclose significant speaking and consulting fees from pharmaceutical companies like GlaxoSmithKline, raising questions about research integrity and conflicts of interest, notes The BMJ and The New York Times.

Although the antidepressant effects of SSRIs are controversial and hotly debated, their effects on the nervous system are not. Dr. Healy's research indicates that they have a suppression effect on the nervous system, which dulls the senses, and this can happen within 1 to 2 days.

One of the more troublesome of these effects is called "genital numbing," which affects 9 out of 10 people talking SSRIs. This can result in difficulties with sexual arousal and greatly delayed orgasm, and apparently these effects can persist long after drug discontinuation. He said that these sensory effects can develop quickly, within a day or two of starting the medications.

Even more chilling, he said that the problem can actually get worse when you discontinue the medication, and can sometimes persist for life.

In addition, quite a few individuals have "bad trips" on SSRIs, although a minority clearly have "good trips." He said the best thing to do for a bad trip is to take the patient off of the medication immediately—and NOT increase the dose. He confirmed my impression that a common error with all antidepressants is to increase the dose—which simply increases the side effects.

In addition to the genital numbing described above, he said the SSRIs cause "emotional numbing," which means a decreased capacity for joy as well as sorrow.

One of the main activities in David Healy's life has been listening to patients, rather than discounting their complaints when they describe negative effects of medications.

When asked about what alternatives to drugs he might recommend to someone struggling with depression, he said that sometimes, just doing nothing will be helpful, since most mood problems clear up spontaneously in 12 to 14 weeks. He said that most are simply human problems, not "mental disorders," but real-life problems, like relationship conflicts or social issues.

Although we did not discuss it extensively on the show, I would point out that skillful, drug-free therapy with TEAM CBT can sometimes help as well, and that recent research has confirmed rapid often dramatic mood improvements with individuals using the Feeling Great app, which has been entirely free to anyone since the summer of 2025.

Finally, we do not advise anyone to discontinue or modify the dosages of any medications you have been prescribed without consultation with your doctor. The information in the Feeling Good podcast is of a strictly educational nature, and is not intended as treatment or medical advice.

We thank you for listening to today's shocking but incredibly important dialogue with one of the pioneers and champions of greater ethical integrity and transparency in the psychiatric profession. It is sad, indeed, that we don't have more visionary critical thinkers like Dr. David Healy!

David (H), Rhonda, and David (B)

Ask David, #491, featuring our beloved Dr. Matthew May. Can Introverts be helped? How can we enhance our happiness? What's the best movie to watch if your father rejected you? How can I identify my feelings?

The answers to the first two questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Today's Questions

Anonymous asks: Can an introvert become more extroverted? Or are these personality traits "fixed" and unchanging? Seve asks: I know that TEAM can be super helpful for negative thoughts and feelings, but what are the best tools to enhance happiness and become the person we want to be? I have a patient whose father rejected her when she was young. What would be a good movie that I could recommend for her? Anonymous asks: I don't know how to identify my feelings. Can you help?

Today's Answers

Question #1

Anonymous asks: Can an introvert become more extroverted? Or are these personality traits "fixed" and unchanging?

Dear Dr. Burns,

I hope this message finds you well.

I would like to ask you a question regarding personality traits. Some articles suggest that introversion and extraversion are relatively stable characteristics—meaning that an introverted person cannot truly become more extroverted, and vice versa (or at least not to a great extent). They also propose that introverts tend to lose energy in social situations and recharge when alone, whereas extroverts gain energy from social interaction.

I'm very curious to know your thoughts on this topic. Do you believe an introverted person can become more extroverted? And in your view, is an introvert's need for solitude more of a true "need" or a "want"?

Thank you very much for your time and for the inspiration your work has provided to so many of us.

Warm regards,

Anonymous

David's reply

If you like, I can make this an Ask David question for an upcoming podcast! It's a cool question and raises many questions: Do "personalities" even "exist?" Is this like the question, "Do we have a self?"

It also focuses on the issue of whether we can change and grow, or whether there is some invisible barrier beyond which we can grow any further, due to some inherent "limit" due to our "personality type."

Best, david

Question #2

Dr. Dear David:

I know first-hand how helpful TEAM CBT can be to address negative thoughts and emotions but our path to a happier life and to the person we want to be never really ends. Are there any other tools that Dr. David may have come across and can suggest for someone's growth?

Thank you,

Steve

David's Answer

Great question, and I'll give you a (hopefully) great answer on the podcast! But here's the quickie answer. Focus on one specific moment when you'd like to be feeling happier, or when you need help on become the person you want to be, and then use a Daily Mood Log, Habit / Addiction Log (HAL), or Relationship Journal, depending on what's needed.

This is the exact same fractal concept we use in all of TEAM CBT!

Warmly, david

Question #3

Hi podcast crew: I have a patient whose father rejected her when she was young. What would be a really good movie to recommend do her?

David's Answer

Sadly, I lost my notes from this podcast, but in general David and Matt found this question somewhat offensive, as it suggests you can chase a problem (father rejected me) with a method, in this case recommending a good movie.

We, instead, would recommend TEAM CBT, which is real therapy, and not gimmicks. Movies can be rewarding, but that's not the same as effective therapy!

Rhonda asked David and Matt what was wrong with recommending a movie in the same way we recommend books for clients to read. Have a listen to hear their response.

Question #4

Anonymous asks: I don't know how to identify my feelings. Can you help?

David's Answer

Rhonda said one of her clients could not identify their feelings, unless they have the Feelings Chart in front of them. David thought that anyone could identify their feelings and explained.

One simple way is to identify a specific moment when you were upset and wanting help. Think about what was going on, who wee you with, where were you, etc.

Then review the Feeling Words charts, which I will link to, to see how many, and which ones, resonate with how you were feeling at that time, or how you may still be feeling.

Another way is to draw a Stick Figure of yourself, and put a bubble above its head. Then imagine the Stick Figure is upset and put the Stick Figure's negative thoughts and feelings in the bubble. They don't have to be your feelings and thoughts, just make some up.

Do it now—on paper! DON'T just think about it. That never works!

Have you done it yet? No? That's what I suspected.

If you ever DO want the answer to your question, so the stick figure on paper and then write me back. Thanks!

Finally, you can listen to the podcast on "I Feel" Statements, and spend one week telling five people a day how you feel, using words from the Feeling Words Chart. For example, when checking groceries you could tell the clerk, "I'm feeling happy because we have such beautiful weather today." Or, "I'm feeling really frustrated with politics this morning!" Or whatever.

Thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda, and David

Sexting, Bullying, and Social Media-- A Compassionate, Practical Guide for Parents of Teens

Today, we welcome back one of our favorite guests, Taylor Chesney, director of the Feeling Good Institute in New York City. Taylor specializes in TEAM-CBT with children and adolescents and brings a rare combination of clinical expertise and real-life wisdom as the mother of four.

Parents everywhere are worried about social media, sexting, porn, bullying, and the fear that their kids are doing "who knows what" behind closed doors. In this episode, Taylor offers a refreshing and deeply practical message: the solution isn't better apps, stricter rules, or surveillance—it's connection.

Why Blaming Technology Misses the Point

Teen brains are still developing. They're impulsive, thrill-seeking, and wired for belonging and validation. Give teens instant access to peers and social media, and mistakes are inevitable.

Taylor emphasizes that technology itself isn't good or bad—it amplifies what's already happening in a teen's emotional world. The real question isn't how to eliminate technology, but how parents can guide kids in using it safely and thoughtfully.

The Real Protective Factor: Communication

Parents often ask, "What app should I install?" or "How do I stop this?" Taylor suggests these questions lead to dead ends.

What truly protects teens is a relationship where they feel:

As Taylor explains, for most teens it's not if they'll face a difficult online situation—it's when. The goal is to make sure they come to you when it happens.

How to Talk So Teens Will Open Up

Using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, especially the Disarming Technique, parents can shift from policing to coaching.

Instead of:

This approach reduces secrecy and increases trust.

Porn, Sexting, and Shame

Discovering porn or sexting can trigger panic and anger in parents—but shaming almost always backfires.

Taylor suggests responding with curiosity and empathy:

Sexting often begins innocently—seeking connection, validation, or closeness—but once an image is sent, control is lost. Open conversations help teens think ahead without feeling judged or controlled.

Parents can also teach teens simple, self-respecting responses like:

"I care about you, but I don't need to send that to prove it."

Bullying and Online Drama

Online bullying mirrors real-life dynamics—but faster, more public, and more permanent.

Taylor shares concrete skills teens can use:

Helpful phrases teens can practice include:

The Big Takeaway

Mistakes—by teens and parents—are inevitable. The real danger isn't errors; it's secrecy.

When kids know they can come to their parents without fear of shame or punishment, they make better decisions and recover more quickly when things go wrong.

As Taylor puts it: "The kids with the best relationships with their parents make the best decisions."

Thanks for listening, and heartfelt thanks to Taylor for this wise, compassionate, and deeply reassuring conversation.

— David, Rhonda, and Taylor

Download the amazing Feeling Great app today for FREE at FeelingGreat.com! This is my $99 GIFT for you.

– Dr. David Burns

Meet Richard Lam-- Master TEAM CBT Teacher and Therapist!

Today we chat with Richard Lam. Richard is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in private practice in Mountain View, California. He is a graduate of Palo Alto University. He currently provides short-term therapy for anxiety, OCD, habits/addictions, depression, and relationship concerns using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Richard also trains other therapists in David Burn's model of CBT called TEAM-CBT Therapy. He is a certified Level 5 Master Therapist and Trainer in TEAM-CBT Therapy.

And today, Richard has gifts for you! They are fantastic! See below!

I began by asking Richard how he got interested in teaching. When he was first learning, he was tutored by Dr. Angela Krumm, an advanced TEAM CBT practitioner and one of the three founders of the Feeling Good Institute. He was loving the training, but one day she said, "That's all I can teach you. Now you have to start teaching!"

And that started the wagon rolling down the hill. Richard is particularly interested in developing free self-help tools for patients, but also runs a special training class for TEAM CBT therapists who themselves want to become trainers. It meets in-person at the FGI office on Mondays from 12 to 2 PM. If interested, contact Richard (contact information is at bottom of show notes.)

Richard is one of our most articulate TEAM CBT teachers, and is renown for some of his live demonstrations of specific techniques, like Forced Empathy. He has created a series of multi-page interactive teaching guides for a variety of techniques, so you can learn exactly how to do the Double Standard Technique, or the Externalization of Voices in a simple, clear, step-ty-step manner. Here are links to several examples. Check them out and feel free to share them with your patients if you are a TEAM therapist.

These links are all kick ass! Check them out and do the exercises. You'll be glad you did!

Richard tells us that mental health works a lot like physical health. When we don't regularly care for our bodies, things start to deteriorate and the same is true for our minds. These tools give you a way to keep nurturing your mental health so you can maintain a strong, healthy mind.

Richard and I also discussed Acceptance--one of the most difficult concepts for patients and therapists alike to "get." I was delighted to learn he has a five-point plan to help people grasp this concept.

Richard's Five Steps to Acceptance

1. The Win-Win Principle: How can I see this loss as a win?

In high school, Richard had a patient whose heart was set on making the varsity basketball team, and was heartbroken when he only made the junior varsity team. But then he got to thinking that it would be fun to be the start on the JV team because his best friend is also going to be in JV. He relaxed and started to enjoy his practices with the team.

And

He was promptly promoted to the varsity team!

2. Remember the butterfly effect!

Richard described getting angry and frustrated when he was late for an important appointment, and the car in front of him was moving slowly and caused a delay at a red light. His first impulse was to get angry and insist it SHOULDN'T have happened. But then, in reflection, he thought: "Wait a minute. This delay will change the entire trajectory of the rest of my life. And who knows, this could have save my life from some future tragedy if the trajectory of my life had been on time."

3, Growth mindset

I have always thought of this important idea in simple terms. There is really no such "thing," from a Buddhist perspective, as "success" or "failure." These are just experiences. But often things do not turn out as one hoped. Instead of caving in, giving up, or feeling depressed or frustrated, although those are perfectly reasonable human experiences, you can accept your failure and view it as an opportunity for growth and learning. Our 9 month old grandson has reminded me that when we are learning to walk, we "fail" constantly, falling over, etc. But these are steps in learning that eventually culminates in the ability to walk--which is a miracle!

4. The spiritual view

Acceptance can be thought of as letting go of judgement. Richard treated a woman who was angry at God because she could not have children, and she had always dreamed of having a big family. But from a medical perspective, her anger and constant agitation were actually the main reason she couldn't get pregnant. Shen she began working on reducing her anger using TEAM CBT, she was able to relax, and accept her fate with greater in peace.

And then she suddenly got pregnant!

I, David, have seen this on many occasions. Check out Podcast #7f9, one of our most popular podcasts ever, with Daisy: "What is the Secret of a Meaningful Life?" Or Podcasts 268 - 269, featuring live work with our beloved Dr. Carly Zankman. Or #349: "What if my family rejects me?" All of these podcasts were amazing, and resulted in rapid pregnancies!

5. Empathy vs anger

Richard described getting VERY angry when someone broke into his car and stole a bunch of stuff, but then asked himself why they did it. He realized that they were probably struggling and desperate for money--for drugs, for food, for family. Understanding someone's story can help lower the anger that you feel.

Richard, Rhonda, and David

Let's face it. We ALL procrastinate. Attempts to "help" nearly always backfire.

Dr. David Burns gets it. Procrastinators don't want help — they want something that actually works. In his upcoming free webinar on February 25, Dr. Burns introduces his paradoxical approach and ten powerful TEAM CBT tools that deliver results.

Sign up now at FeelingGoodWebinar.com.

Everyone is welcome! Therapists can purchase two CE credits if they attend the live event.

See you there!

(featured photo shows David, his wife Yvonne, and son, Joey, when young)

Today we continue our conversation with my dear friend and esteemed colleague, Dr. David Antonuccio, a true scholar, clinician, researcher, musician, and champion of scientific transparency.

The Nicotine Patch Study

David revisited his landmark research on the nicotine patch, a costly trial involving roughly 600 participants who were randomly assigned to receive either a real nicotine patch or a sham patch. The goals were to assess safety and efficacy.

The safety data looked reassuring. However, the efficacy findings were unexpected: the placebo patch worked just as well as the active nicotine patch in reducing smoking. The sponsoring company published the safety data but refused to publish—and refused David access to—the efficacy findings, which showed no advantage for the nicotine patch. You can check the link to the NEJM article here.

David writes: "Notice the 48 week follow-up data were excluded in this paper despite the fact that they were available. That really annoyed me. I also now believe that the original version of the paper was ghostwritten and ghost analyzed by the industry folks.in other words. I'm not sure that the authors ever had access to the "raw" data before they were analyzed."

This was important because there was a decrease in smoking DURING the study among those wearing the patch, and getting their "fix" of nicotine that way. . . but what happened AFTER the study?

David writes: "Here is the link to the follow up paper that emphasized efficacy and included the 48 week follow-up data."

Notice that this paper was not published until three years later, when the Nicotine Patch had already been heavily advertised and sold on the market. This early experience in his career revealed the tension between marketing interests which focus on sales, and scientific interests which focus on truth and transparency—a daunting and frustrating pattern that would emerge again and again in his career.

Expert Testimony in a Tragic Criminal Case

David then described expert testimony he provided in a deeply troubling legal case. A 72-year-old woman, happily married for 50 years and a respected kindergarten teacher, had recently been prescribed Paxil, along with Ambien and Ativan.

She abruptly, and without memory, woke up in the middle of the night and stabbed her husband 200 times and was subsequently arrested for homicide.

There was no jury trial; instead, a plea bargain was used to determine sentencing. Dr. David Antonuccio was called as an expert witness in her defense. He described Dr. David Healy's research documenting a significant increase in both suicidal and violent urges among some patients taking SSRIs, especially Paxil. He argued that this woman's bizarre behavior was consistent with a drug-induced dissociative or fugue state.

Based in part on David's testimony, the charge was reduced to manslaughter, and the judge sentenced her to time served, allowing her to return home to her children.

For more on this topic:

Black Box Warnings and Patient Rights

David also emphasized the urgent need to revise Black Box warnings to reflect the full range of possible toxic or dissociative effects of psychiatric medications—not just suicidality. He has long advocated for a Patient Bill of Rights to ensure scientific transparency and informed consent.

A Surprising Conversation with Dr. John Nash

David shared a fascinating personal story about calling Dr. John Nash, whose life inspired the award-winning film A Beautiful Mind. In the movie, Nash's recovery from schizophrenia is portrayed as medication-dependent. However, Nash told David directly that this was not true—the medication narrative was added to the script, possibly out of concern that portraying his recovery without meds might discourage viewers from taking prescribed medications.

Nash said: "What saved me was the support of family and friends."

Music, Truth, and "Buzz"

David is also a talented songwriter. One of his songs, "Buzz," addresses the emotional and ethical issues surrounding electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). The inspiration came from a man in the Midwest who was legally ordered to undergo ECT against his will. A widespread public outcry ultimately convinced the judge to rescind the order.

Forgiveness and "In the Air Tonight"

One of David's favorite songs is Phil Collins' "In the Air Tonight," which he sees as a deeply spiritual musical meditation on forgiveness—a theme David considers one of the most powerful psychological forces we possess. David explains that the Phil Collin's song is about forgiveness, but more indirectly and specifically about the songwriter's inability to forgive.

And yes—David sang it live for us on the podcast!

You might be interested in this chapter that David coauthored on

Thank you for joining us today. And heartfelt thanks to you, Dr. David Antonuccio, for your gifts of enlightened skepticism, ethical courage, incisive scientific thinking, and soulful musical talent.

David, Rhonda, and David

Stories from a Giant and Gadfly Discover the Protest Music of RainFall!-- like "The Antidepressant Blues!"

Today, we are delighted to spend some time with a dear friend and highly esteemed colleague, Dr. David Antonuccio. David is a retired Clinical Psychologist and Professor Emeritus in the Dept. of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the University of Nevada, Reno, School of Medicine.

In addition to his academic work, David had his own clinical practice for 40 years. He has published over 100 academic articles and multiple books, primarily on the treatment of depression, anxiety, or smoking cessation. Since his retirement from practice in 2020, he has been making music as part of a duo called RainFall, with his musical partner Michael Pierce. Their music can be found on Spotify, Apple music, and Soundcloud, among other streaming services.

I first became familiar with David when a colleague recommended his article entitled: "Psychotherapy versus medication for depression: challenging the conventional wisdom with data," which was published in Professional Psychology: Research and Practice way back in 1995. The article blew my socks off.

In the first place, he had come to the many of the same conclusions I had come to, that antidepressants had few "real" effects above and beyond their placebo effects. However, he also had incredible insights into some of the problems and loopholes with drug company research studies on antidepressants, so I tried to get as many colleagues and students as possible to read that article.

Although I had never met David, he became my hero. One day, while I was giving one of my two-day CBT workshops in Nevada, I was singing his praises and urging participants to read that classic article, but, unexpectedly, some people started chuckling.

At a break, I asked someone why people had been laughing. They said, "Didn't you know that David Antonuccio is here attending this workshop? He was out visiting the bathroom when you were singing his praises, so he didn't hear you!"

And that's how we met!

I couldn't believe my good fortune in meeting this brilliant and humble man in person. And to my good fortune, we became good friends right off the bat and eventually did a lot of fun professional work together, like our exciting conference challenging the chemical imbalance theory of depression which we called the Rumble in Reno.

I was also proud to be included as a co-author in a popular article with David and William Danton reviewing the brilliant work of Irving Kirsch. Kirsch had re-analyzed all the data on antidepressants in the FDA archives and concluded that the chemicals called "antidepressants" had few, if any, clinically significant effects above and beyond their placebo effects. In that paper, we also emphasized the ongoing power struggle between the needs of science and the needs of marketing. Science is devoted to discovering and reporting the truth, based on research, regardless of where it leads, while marketing, sadly, is ultimately loyal to the bottom line, even if deception is required.

And here is the full reference:

Antonuccio, D. O., Burns, D., & Danton, W. G. (2002). Antidepressants: A Triumph of Marketing over Science? Prevention and Treatment, 5, Article 25. Web link: http://journals.apa.org/prevention/volume5/toc-jul15-02.htm

I was sad when David retired from his clinical, teaching, and research career a number of years ago in order to spend more time on creating and recording music because, a passion he'd put on the shelf during the most active years of his career. I felt we'd lost an important and courageous leader in the behavioral sciences, and felt an emptiness, like an important pioneer was suddenly missing.

The following link provides a highly readable brief overview of

I was thrilled to learn just recently that David has partly resumed his role as gadfly of the behavioral sciences, rejoining the fight for science, ethics and for truth, regardless of where that leads or whose feathers are ruffled.

And now, we sit down together to reminisce about his personal life and experiences with many of the greats in our field, like Dr. David Healey, Irving Kirsch, and others who have also stood up for the truth, based on their research, in spite of intense opposition from the establishment.

And, today David also brings us his music, with his colleague, Michael Pierce, RainFall.

Some of his music has psychiatric / psychological themes, like his "Antidepressant Blues,"

Some of David's music has humanistic and political themes. He said:

Here's a song we just released yesterday that i will assume would not be relevant to the podcast. It is called Final Embrace and was inspired by a heart-breaking international wire photo of a Salvadoran immigrant father hugging his daughter, both deceased, in the rio grande in 2019.

David's two-man group, RainFall, wrote and recorded the original acoustic version of this song in 2020. He explains:

We decided to record a more dynamic updated version of the song with some electric guitar chords, electric bass, and drums. We are calling it "Final Embrace Electric". The story is still heart-breaking, and it still makes me cry to sing it.

And here are the heart-breaking lyrics:

Final Embrace Electric (For Oscar and Valeria)

By RainFall (David Antonuccio and Michael Pierce)

I'm sorry I couldn't help you

I'm sorry you lost your life

You took a deadly risk

I'm sorry for your wife

What were you supposed to do?

Stay home and watch your family die?

Or take a chance at freedom

Reach for the sky

Some say you should have known better

They say that you are a criminal

But they don't know your fear, your pain, your hunger

For them it's the principle

Some say we were here first

It's not our problem

Despite your dire thirst

We're full, no more asylum

Let's ask them what they would do

If their family were faced with danger

If they're honest, they'd take the chance

Hope for kindness from a stranger

You tried to get in the front door

But it was slammed closed

So you swam the deadly current

Despite the perilous flow

You never lost your grip

Though the river was not crossable

Only another parent can know

How that is even possible

Everyone can tell you loved your daughter

Even in that place

You never let her go

It was your final embrace

I'm sorry I couldn't help you

I'm sorry you lost your life

You took a deadly risk

I'm so sorry for your wife

Everyone can tell you loved your daughter

Even in that place

You never let her go

It was your final embrace

Your final embrace

It was your final embrace

It was your final embrace

Thank you for joining us today. Stayed tuned for Part 2 of the David Antonuccio interview next week!

David, Rhonda, and David

"Doctor, why won't you ever tell me how you really feel?" Therapist Self-Disclosure-- Featuring Dr. Carly Zankman

This week, Dr. Carly Zankman joins us to discuss a really interesting and controversial topic—self-disclosure by a therapist. When is it helpful? And when is it an ethics violation?

When I was a psychiatric resident, my supervisors (mainly psychoanalytic) cautioned me NEVER to share my feelings with patients. This felt really awkward at time, but is there some wisdom in that advice? And if so, what IS the wisdom? How does it work or help?

And if that rule—never sharing your feelings or personal life--is too rigid, then when and how should we share our feelings and personal experiences with our patients? What is the goal, and what are the best practices?

As most of you know, I have often been extremely critical of what I was taught as a psychiatric resident, thinking the teachings were based more on tradition than on science or data. And when it came to never share your feelings, I sometimes used to think about this issue along these lines: Let's assume that one of our jobs is to help our patients become more vulnerable and genuine, by sharing how they really feel inside instead of acting fake and always presenting a happy or professional face to the world.

That goal seems reasonable, and it's a prime goal of a great many therapists. But how are we supposed to accomplish that goal by acting fake and hiding our own feelings? That just did not seem to make sense to me!

But there are lots of traps when it comes to sharing your feelings. What if the patient is attracted to you, or vice versa? What if you do not like the patient, or feel turned off by them or annoyed with them?

In today's podcast, we will try to sort out some of these questions, with help from the vivacious and brilliant Carly Zankman, Psy.D. (INSERT CARLY'S BIOSKETCH AND BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF HER TEAM CBT CLINICAL WORK IN MOUNTAIN VIEW, California.

Carly described being taught similar things in graduate school, cautioning the students against opening up in a personal way during sessions. However, one of her supervisors listened to one of her sessions with a patient, and said, "the greatest gift you bring to therapy is just opening up and bringing your own, genuine and authentic self into the room."

Carly described being taught similar things in graduate school, cautioning the students against opening up in a personal way during sessions. However, one of her supervisors listened to one of her therapy sessions with a patient, and said, "Your greatest gift is bringing your own, genuine and authentic self into the room," and from that point forward, everything shifted in how she viewed her role in the therapeutic relationship.

Carly describes working with a patient recently and receiving a 19 / 20 on the Empathy scale at the end of the session. Although 9 out of 10 therapists would say that's a terrific, near-perfect score, on our scoring key it is rated as a failing grade. That's because the patient is telling you that you didn't quite "get" something about them, or didn't quite connect with them in a completely warm and supportive way.

Carly's patient was a 40 year old recently re-married woman with a new baby, and struggling with a lot of regret, guilt, shame, depression, and anxiety. Carly decided on a hunch it might be a good idea to share her personal story, since she saw this woman as a mirror image of herself.

Carly asked the patient if she wanted Carly to share her story, and this patient lit right up and was excited. It turned out to be tremendously helpful and was what she needed to believe Carly's empathy was real and not phony. The patient said that in the past she'd had many therapists, but none of them had ever share their personal experiences or feelings.

Why was that so helpful? How does it work? And what are some red lines that you do NOT want to cross as a therapist? These are just a few of the ideas we discussed on today's podcast.

We listed and briefly discussed a few of the many situations where it might NOT make sense to share our feelings or experiences with patients.

Rhonda pointed out that if you've had a traumatic experience and you're feeling quite depressed, anxious, or angry, and have not yet had the chance to do your own personal work, it would not be the best idea to share it with your patient, because you might be using the patient as your own therapy or support network.

You also would not share

feelings of sexual or romantic attraction to a patient strong personal feelings of unresolved depression, anxiety, or anger

Some feelings you might share with your patient, but only if you have the great therapeutic skill to do so in a helpful, illuminating way, such as feelings of dislike or anger toward the patient.

We also discussed the danger of therapy degenerating into a paid friend relationship, and asked how that differed from the work of Dr. Irvin Yalom, the famous Stanford psychiatrist who taught us that developing a genuine human relationship between the therapist and patient IS the goal of therapy.

Finally, we exchanged ideas about the model of therapy as a "corrective emotional experience," and none of us seemed to take kindly to that model of therapy.

Thanks for listening today!

And thanks for the illuminating information from our brilliant and bubbly guest, Dr. Carly Zankman!

Thanks for listening today!

Carly, Rhonda, and David

Helping a Loved One with Schizophrenia Treating OCD! My Hands Might Be Contaminated! How To Mend an Angry, Broken Heart

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Here are the questions for today's podcast.

Joel asks: How can we use TEAM CBT to help a patient or loved one struggling with schizophrenia? Jean asks: Since CBT won't work with OCD, should we use exposure or the Hidden Emotion Technique instead? Jim asks: When someone has objectively hurt you, like your partner has had an affair, how do you get over that pain?

And here are the answers.

Question #1

Dear Dr Burns,

I learned from you that the foundational principle of CBT is that our emotions, and ultimately our behaviors, are rooted in thoughts or beliefs. Are there emotional and/or behavioral disorders (perhaps like schizophrenia) that are rooted in abnormal neurobiological brain pathologies, rather than in distorted cognitions or self-defeating beliefs? And if so, is TEAM CBT relevant to helping those suffering from these "psychoses"?

With much gratitude, respect, and affection,

Joel

Question #2

Dear Dr. Burns:

I'm curious if you have thoughts about the problem of talking back to the obsessive thoughts in OCD.

Thank you,

Jean

Question #3

Dear Dr. Burns:

When someone has objectively hurt you, like your partner has had an affair, how do you get over that pain? I am not having thoughts that I did anything wrong, or there is something the matter with me, I feel sad, hurt and confused and angry.

Jim

Thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda, and David

Live Work with Madeleine I'm Helpless! Part 3 of 3

Today, we are pleased to present the live and unedited follow-up session with Madeleine, a loving mother who became terrified when she realized that her oldest beloved daughter might be in mortal danger during her hear abroad while in college.

We were a bit rushed near the end of M = Methods in Part 2 because of a mistake that I (David) made. I forgot that we had extended this webinar by 30 minutes, so we wouldn't be rushed at the end, so I wrongly concluded we were running out of time when we weren't!

In order to complete our work, we scheduled Part 3 several weeks later to do the following critical pieces of the work with Madeleine.

Additional work with the Externalization of Voices to make sure she could knock all of her self-critical thoughts out of the park. Cognitive Flooding, using the magazine article she was triggered by to prompt the anxiety. The idea is to make yourself as anxious as possible for as long as possible, until the anxiety and panic eventually loses its punch and becomes boring. This will be one of the first times we have illustrated this technique live in a video-recorded session. Any other loose ends that may have emerged since our first session with the wonderful Madeleine!

We did some cognitive flooding, urging Madeleine to close her eyes and describe her most terrifying fantasy involving her daughter's abduction by a sociopathy. We encourage her to make herself as anxious as possible, and within minutes she was at 100% and sobbing. Then we did some "memory" rescripting as we had promised her at the start, and part way through there was an unexpected surge of anger, that seemed to come from out of the blue, although the circumstances of the fantasy were clearly more than enough to trigger rage.

Using the technique called "Affect Bridging," I asker her whether the anger she was now feeling might trace back to some earlier traumatic event in her life, perhaps when she was young, and this was confirmed. She described a profoundly troubling indecent involve her mother and dad shortly before they got divorced.

There was a tremendous amount of emotion packed into today's follow-up session, almost non-stop, in fact. We look forward to seeing Madeleine's end-of-session Brief Mood Survey and Evaluation of Therapy Session. Jill and David assigned follow-up homework for her, including 15 minutes per day reading the terrifying article from People Magazine that had initially triggered her in the beauty salon.

We want to thank you, Madeleine for your courage in being so open and real, and for giving us all a unique opportunity for some incredible learning, and also the chance to get to know you at a deep a genuine level!

Thanks for listening to these three podcasts. We hope you enjoyed them and learned something useful and helpful, especially if you've also been struggling with feelings of depression and anxiety, or if you're a mental health professional wanting to take a deeper dive in to how TEAM CBT can sometimes produce extremely rapid healing, even from severe feelings of depression, anxiety, and despair.

Madeleine, Jill, Rhonda, and David

Following the session, Madeleine sent us the following feedback on the session via email:

Hi Jill and David,

Completed after session yesterday, but in my state of emotional fatigue, forgot to hit send!

Brief Mood Survey after session:

Depression: 3 / 20 (minimal)

Suicidal urges: 0 / 12 (none)

Anxiety: 8 / 20 (mildly elevated)

Anger: 9 / 20 (mild/moderately elevated)

Happiness: 12 / 20 (low)

Relationship Satisfaction: 29 / 30 (nearly perfect)

Evaluation of Therapy Session

Empathy: 20 / 20 (perfect score)

Helpfulness: 20 / 20 (perfect score)

Satisfaction: 8 / 8 (perfect score)

Commitment: 8 /8 (perfect score)

Neg feelings: 4 (high, range = 0- 4)

Difficulties with Q: 2 (medium, range = 0- 4)

What did you like the Least: exposure was pain. It feels very heavy and exhausting. And i understand, necessary to healing.

What did you like the Most: David's "bridging" my affect states to discover my rage source. Jill's keeping us on track and making connection from my present worry about daughter's safety to past feelings of betrayal, losing trust, and resulting anger in my dad, a trusted figure. You both hit the nail on the head so many times in the session to uncover the deeper, ugly, messy, dark pools that lie within me i choose to keep safely sealed tight and out of the light.

Postscript: I just completed day 1 of exposure in re reading the awful article. All the anxiety and fear resurfaced along with new feelings of revenge, determination, appreciation for the authors who are perhaps trying to help the family by publishing this. Ick.

Best Regards,

Madeleine

Again, a big thanks to you Madeleine, and we will watch closely as you continue your courageous daily exposure work, and look forward to the day when you have won this battle!

Warmly, david

Live Work with Madeleine I'm Helpless! Part 2 of 3

Today, we are pleased to present the exciting conclusion of our work with Madeleine, a loving mother who fears that her eldest daughter might be in mortal danger during her year abroad. Last week, you heard about the T = Testing and E = Empathy phase of the live work with Madeleine, a mother feeling intense panic and helplessness and inadequacy because she fears that her daughter could be in grave danger of abduction and worse. This week, we will focus on A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting, using the Miracle Cure Question, Magic Button, Positive Reframing, and Magic Dial to see if we can melt away her resistance to change.

You can see the Emotions table of the Daily Mood Log Madeleine during the Magic Dial portion of the session if you

As you can see, she wanted to reduce her negative feelings somewhat, but thought she still wanted to keep them fairly elevated, since she still sensed that her daughter might be in real danger, and clearly did not want to abandon her.

This is one of the significant refinements in TEAM CBT. First, we want to bring the patient's resistance to full conscious awareness. Second, we want patients to full grasp that their negative thoughts and feelings do NOT result from some "defect" or "mental disorder," but rather from what is most beautiful and awesome about them as human beings.

After the Magic Button, David and Jill went on to the final, M = Methods portion of the TEAM session, using tools such as Identify and Explain the Distortions, the Double Standard Technique, and the Externalization of Voices, with the Acceptance Paradox, the Self-Defense Paradigm, and the CAT (Counter-Attack Technique). We will, of course, do numerous role reversals to see if we can get Madeleine to a "huge" victory over her many distorted thoughts.

You can see the Daily Mood Log Madeleine prepared at the end of the session if you

As you can see, the reductions in negative feelings were dramatic, but in several areas (anxiety, inadequacy, frustration and anger), Madeleine's negative feelings were still minimally elevated. That is one of the reasons we decided to schedule an additional session together several weeks later to see if we could intensify Madeleine's responses to her negative thoughts, and hopefully due some Cognitive Flooding to complete her "treatment."

At the end of these show notes, you will find an email from Madeleine after the session that includes her end-of-session scores on the BMS and EOTS. You will also see comments submitted by many participants who attended the webinar live.

This email below from Madeleine following the session shows her end of session scores on the Brief Mood Survey as well as the Evaluation of Therapy Session at the end of her session with Jill and David.

Hi David,

Yes, here are my BMS & ETS score totals after the extended session. Please let me know if you have any questions. A relapse prevention session would be nice; however, I hesitate to accept your offer as you all are so busy. Please know that I am practicing the PTs and keeping the NTs in check for now.

Thank you again a million times over😊. Yes, Feel free to use the recording however you like. Like I said, it's the least I can do to contribute to your generous and vitally important work. You are both very inspiring in so many ways. Much gratitude, Madeleine

Brief Mood Survey (BMS)

Depressed 0 / 20 (complete elimination of depression)

Suicidal 0 / 12

Anxious 2 / 20 (near-complete elimination of anxiety)

Angry 0 / 20

PF 36 / 40 (dramatic improvement in Positive Feelings)

RS 29 / 30 (large improvement in Relationship Satisfaction)

Evaluation of Therapy Session (ETS)

Empathy 20 / 20 (perfect)

Helpfulness 20 / 20 (perfect)

Satisfaction 8 / 8 (perfect)

Commitment 8 / 8 (perfect)

Neg feelings 1 (0 – 4) (uncomfortable at times!)

Difficulties w/ answering the questions honestly 0 (0 – 4) (no difficulties)

What did you like the least? Crying and blathering in front of all those people. Fortunately, I wasn't able to see any faces except yours😉

What did you like the most? Jill's "smooth as silk" empathy skills, David's laser sharp questions, Jill's rephrasing & untangling of the PT to "unlikely," David's having me write powerful PR stuff down, Jill & David's EOV - so strong, David counterattacking my neg thoughts with "sociopath," Jill's double std delivered in a very gentle way. I never felt rushed!

Feedback for Madeleine from the chat during the session

Comments for Madeline:

Live Work with Madeleine I'm Helpless! Part 1 of 3

Today, we are pleased to present one of our favorite podcast topics—live work with a real human being who is suffering. We will be working with Madeleine, a woman who read a disturbing article while at the hairdresser and freaked out, sensing that one of her daughters might be in mortal danger.

This live and unedited session was first presented as part of a free webinar on September 11, 2025. There was no preparation or role-playing—everything was absolutely real and spontaneous, exactly as it evolved in real time. We present Part 1 as our final Feeling Good Podcast for our 2025 season. This is our most powerful and popular type of podcast, and we hope you enjoy it. We also give a big thanks to our courageous "patient," Madeleine.

My co-therapist will be Dr. Jill Levitt, a clinical psychologist and Director of Training at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California. Jill and I greatly enjoy working together as co-therapists when we teach and we typically see our "patient" for an extended, two-hour session.

We find that this is the most effective format for teaching, and that way, we can frequently complete a course of therapy in a single session. However, you do not need more than one therapist to do effective TEAM CBT, and you can do it in conventional 50 minute sessions as well. But often, you can do vastly more in a double session.

We will not be engaged in an ongoing therapeutic relationship with Madeleine. When we work with therapists, they are doing personal work as a part of their training. We feel that this experience is vital for every therapist who hopes to do world-class TEAM CBT with their own patients / clients.

More than 2,000 individuals registered for this workshop. Although the workshop was open to everyone, only 13% of the participants identified as general public, while 87% identified as mental health professionals.

In Part 1, which we present today, we focused on T = Testing and E = Empathy phases of the TEAM session.

In Part 2, which you will hear next week, we will focus on A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting and M = Methods. We will also show you the changes in her scores on the Daily Mood Log (DML) and Brief Mood Survey (BMS) from the start to the end of the session, as well as Madeleine's scores on the Evaluation of Therapy Session (EOTS) at the end, including what she liked the most and least about the session. That way, we can see clearly how much improvement there was (or wasn't) during the session, and how Jill and I did in terms of empathy, helpfulness, and other scales that evaluate the patient's view of the session.

In Part 3, which you will hear in two weeks, we did more Externalization of Voices along with Cognitive Exposure, since we had some loose ends we wanted to tie up before completing our work with Madeleine. This follow-up session occurred many weeks after the initial session at the workshop, and will also serve as a follow-up to see how Madeleine did in the days following the live work.

Our "patient," Madeleine, is a courageous woman who experienced sheer panic after being triggered at the hair salon while reading an article about a young woman who was abducted. Since Madeleine's oldest daughter's is away at college, taking a year abroad, Madeleine realized she could not protect her from predators and freaked out, thinking about all the horrible things that could happen to her.

In addition, Madeleine had many self-critical thoughts about ways she thought she had failed her daughter when her daughter was growing up, and worried about her daughter's judgement:

She hasn't always made the best decisions about guys she's gone out with, and she's shared everything with me. She says, 'Don't worry mom. I've learned from this.'"

At the start of the session, we reviewed Madeleine's scores on the Brief Mood Survey (BMS). This indicated only minimal depression (5/20), with no suicidal urges or anger, but her anxiety was still extremely elevated (18/20).

In addition, her Positive Feelings score was only 20 out of 40, with 0 meaning no positive feelings at all, and 40 being the highest possible feelings. However, her Relationship Satisfaction score with her husband was 25 out of 30, which indicates strong satisfaction, with just a little room for improvement.

We will ask Madeleine to complete the BMS again, along with the EOTS, so we can see precisely what changed, and by how much, during the session. Our goal, of course, with TEAM CBT, is nearly always to cause a near-complete, or complete, elimination of symptoms during a single, extended therapy session.

In addition, we want every patient to have a crystal clear understanding of how and why they got upset, along with how to use the tools that were the most helpful to them in the session. That way, they'll be armed to deal with future relapses, which are inevitable for all human beings.

And here's the big point. Our goal in sharing this session with you is so you can feel inspired, and see that rapid recovery really IS possible. And if you're a therapist, we hope that you will feel motivated to learn TEAM CBT so you can significantly improve your outcomes with your own patients.

You can see the Daily Mood Log Madeleine prepared just prior to the session if you

The upsetting situation was reading the article about the young abducted woman in the hair salon. On the Emotions table she indicated that she was feeling sad, down, and unhappy (85%), anxious, frightened and panicky (100%), inadequate (100%), frustrated (90%), and angry and upset (100%). These extremely high ratings tells us that Madeleine's negative feelings were about as intense as a human being can experience.

Although your life is undoubtedly very different from Madeleine's, perhaps you, too, have felt panic and helplessness when you thought the life of a loved one might be in danger.

Madeleine generated several additional negative Thoughts during the empathy phase of the session, including,

I'm totally responsible for how she's turned out. 95% I was not present enough for her. 95% She may not trust that I'm there for her. 60% She's anxious and insecure and a people-pleasure, and she's also perfectionistic, and it's all my fault. 75% I should have been more sensitive when she was growing up. I expected too much. 100%

Again, if you're a parent, you may have had similar negative thoughts about your own parenting. I know that I have!

During the Empathy phase, Madeleine described her horrors when reading the article at the hairdresser's, with thoughts of Natalie Hollaway's brutal murder as well as other women who were abducted and murdered.

Madeleine explained that she and her husband both married late, and felt somewhat insecure as parents:

"It wasn't easy having children late in life. . . . When our first baby was born, the milk was not coming down. My daughter would look deep into my eyes, and I had the thought, 'I'm letting my daughter down.'"

She said she had a rough time when she was growing up and her parents got divorced:

"My heart was broken, and I had to learn to be strong. I had to learn not to let so much emotion through. I had to learn how to keep guys at arm's length. I had to protect myself from getting hurt."

She said that wanted her daughters to grow up being strong and independent, but as she reflects back, she thinks she may have failed them and not provided enough warmth and support.

Our goal during E = Empathy is not to help or even try change anything, but simply to go with our patients to the gates of hell, so they can vent, cry, and express their deepest and most private feelings. At the end of the Empathy portion of the session, we asked Madeleine to grade us on the three key elements of empathy, using letter grades:

How accurately did we understand how you were thinking? How accurately did we understand how you were feeling inside? To what extent did we convey the spirit of trust, warmth, and acceptance?

She gave us 3 A's, indicating it was time to move on to A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting, which you will hear next week. We will want to find out what Madeleine might want help with. We will also try to melt away her resistance to change using the Miracle Cure Question, the Magic Button, Positive Reframing, and the Magic Dial.

Why would we anticipate resistance? After all, Madeleine is asking for help.

But remember, the desire for change cannot always be take for granted in anyone. Nearly all of us have mixed feelings about change. After all, a loving and concerned mother might NOT want to stop worrying about a beloved daughter who seems to be in grave danger! But if you deal with this resistance in a compassionate way, you may open the door to the possibility of rapid healing when you come to the M = Methods portion of the session.

We can check it out at the exciting conclusion of the work with Madeleine next week!

Past Projection vs. Memory Rescripting Why Can't I Lose Weight? Do Demons Cause Negative Thoughts! Featuring Our Beloved Dr. Matthew May

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Here are the questions for today's podcast.

Rhonda asks: What's the difference between Past Projection and Memory Rescripting? Slash asks: How do I overcome my resistance to losing weight? Constantina asks: Do negative thoughts come from demons?

And here are the answers!

Rhonda asks: What's the difference between Past Projection and Memory Rescripting?

I would love to learn more about Memory Rescripting, since I really don't see much difference between that and Past Projection, but maybe I am just dense. So if we could talk about that on the next Ask David, that would be great.

Thanks, Rhonda

David's reply

I use the term, Time Travel, and you can project yourself into the future or the past, hence Future or Past Projection. If you want a patient to travel into the past, there are a great many things you can do that might be helpful. You can do "Forgiveness Training," developed by Jaimie Galindo. Essentially, the patient talks to someone, like a parent, who abused them in some way, telling the parent how hurt they felt, and how they needed the parent's love. Or you can do Cognitive Flooding, simply "watching" some traumatic event to experience the anxiety until it wears out and loses its power to upset you. And there are many more techniques you can use to explore past experiences with a patient.

Memory Rescripting is like Cognitive Flooding—you have the patient close their eyes and vividly re-experience something traumatic, like the babysitter abusing them. Then, at the height of the feelings of anxiety, anger, and helplessness, you can tell the patient that they can be like a movie director, and change the scene so there is a different outcome. For example, the patient may want to enter the scene as a powerful adult and punish the perpetrator.

This is not some standard procedure, as every patient will be completely different. Often, they will want to do something violent to the perpetrator, so this procedure can be anxiety provoking for the therapist!

I have only used it on a couple occasions, but had good results with it both times. I am not a strong believer that patients "must" go into the past to "work through" a prior traumatic experience, so I don't have that much need for it. But it is a good technique to have in your toolbox.

Slash asks: How do I overcome my resistance to losing weight?

Dear Dr. Burns,

I recently listened to your podcast episode on Habits and Addictions, and it really resonated with me. I've been going to the gym regularly, but I'm struggling with my eating habits — I tend to eat too much, and my weight hasn't been decreasing.

What I've realized is that I may be experiencing what you describe as outcome resistance. A part of me feels that if I lose weight and become thin and attractive, I might still not take action in areas like dating — so then I ask myself, "Why should I even bother with weight reduction?"

I'm finding it difficult to overcome this resistance, even though I want to be healthier. Could you please share some guidance or strategies to work through this kind of resistance?

Thank you for all the wonderful work you do. Your podcasts have been truly insightful and helpful.

Warm regards,

Slash

David's reply

Thanks, and we will discuss this important question on the podcast. However, in the meantime, if you can search for Triple Paradox you may find your answer.

Also, you can download two free unpublished changers on habits and addictions from any page on feeling good.com, and use the Decision -Making, Tool.

That, too, will give you the answer!

Warmly, david

Constantina asks: Do negative thoughts come from demons?

David and Rhonda,

Hello. I am doing some research into "spiritual" causes of depression. I realize that you are both scientists (and BRILLIANT ones), but if you have any sources I could review, I would appreciate suggestions.

It might also make for an interesting Halloween season podcast. Do "demons" cause automatic negative thoughts. And if not demons, what actually causes them?

Please don't dismiss this as "crazy". I am a very religious person and at times I have sincerely asked the question...are depression and anxiety ...at least in part, spiritual maladies.

I have found tremendous help in Feeling Good, but also in prayer and religious practices. I want to research what has been done in terms of crossover studies/experiments (if any).

Marianne

David's reply

Thank you. The spiritual underpinnings are not so much something to be researched, but can add a deeper dimension of meaning and understanding to the healing.

Current thinking is that Self-Defeating Beliefs, not demons, trigger the negative thoughts. I have written about all of this extensively, so I won't try to say it all again here.

But we can exchange some ideas on the podcast.

Thanks! d

Thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda, and David

Am I Helping People Who Are Suicidal? Should I Worry about My Daughter's Anxiety? Disarming Yourself

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Here are the questions for today's podcast.

George asks: Would my approach help someone who is suicidal? No Name asks: Do I need to worry about my daughter's anxiety? Jeffrey asks: Can you disarm yourself?

George asks: Would my approach help someone who is suicidal?

Dear David,

Please tell me if this is too close to medical or other protected advice, but I had a question about something I tell people who are sometimes struggling with suicidal ideation.

Throughout my life, I have had the thought "I don't want to be alive anymore" more times than I can count. But what I have come to realize over time is that this is just something my brain says when I'm upset; it doesn't really mean anything other than that. It's just a reaction to being very upset and that reframing helps me feel better about it, knowing that it's not a conviction but rather just how my brain expresses negative distress.

Multiple people have found this helpful, but I wonder if telling certain people this would be dismissive/triggering/etc. In a dangerous way?

Do you think I should stop sharing this experience?

George

David's reply:

Hi George,

Thanks for asking. I will make this an Ask David question, if okay with you, using your first name or some other name if you prefer.

Short answer: to me, this is like giving advice, to my way of thinking, and I have spent the last 40 – 50 years indicating that this is NOT an approach that's ever worked for me.

Can say more on the podcast.

Thanks!

Warmly, david

No Name asks: Do I need to worry about my daughter's anxiety?

Dear Dr. Burns,

I am not very skilled at expressing how much you, Rhonda, the others and your work mean to me. So, I will just ask a question.

My daughter, who has a lot of anxiety issues told me that when she has a problem, she will purposely stew over it when trying to fall asleep so that she will wake up with an answer to the problem the next morning. I cringed. Is there any way that this is a safe or helpful paradoxical technique?

No name

David's reply

Thanks, I'll copy Rhonda. We are both grateful for your loving comments!

Rhonda, we can make this an ask David if you like for a podcast.

But short answer, at least, in my opinion, is that this is a cool way to use your brain. It is a skill. For example, I often get confused by a difficult statistics problem when analyzing data, and go to sleep confused. Nearly all the time, my brain wakes me up in the middle of the night with a brilliant answer. So, if she perceived is in a positive way, and isn't disturbed, you could try nourishing it, as opposed to worrying about it!

We'll see what Rhonda thinks.

Rhonda, I'll add this great brief question to our list for Tuesday. I am reluctant to postpone the Ask David as when we've done this in the past, we've ended up never answer at least 20 to 30 questions which are now too old to put on a podcast. Those who asked may no longer even be alive it's been so long!

Warmly, david

Rhonda's reply

Thank you for this lovely feedback. It really means a lot to us. Your daughter is going through something so many of us experience. I am excited we can respond to your question on an Ask David podcast.

Warmly, Rhonda

Jeffrey asks: Can you disarm yourself?

Subject: Question about using disarming technique on oneself, and also it being used against you.

Endless gratitude to all of you for the pipeline of clarity and hope.

I was wondering if one can use disarming on oneself. Much of the focus in feeling good seems focused on looking for and challenging our distortions, which seems the opposite of disarming.

Maybe the reversal of agendas emphasized in feeling great is essentially putting the disarming back into the process in regards to ourselves.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

On a side note, if one is in a legal contention or divorce, I could see how disarming could be effective and pacifying, yet what if those admissions could be used against you.

David's reply

I would like to include this in an Ask David podcast, with our first name or a fake name. Please advise if okay.

Short answer: the ideas and tools to treat individual mood problems, like depression, are the complete opposite of the ideas and tools to treat relationship problems. This is like matter and anti-matter. However, the Disarming Technique and the Acceptance Paradox connect these two opposed and radically different worlds. So, in a sense, you are right. The Acceptance Paradox is a lot like disarming yourself!

Best, david

Jeffry's reply to david

Thank you for the succinct response, and I look forward to hearing it fleshed out in the podcast.

I would be honored for you to mention my name: Jeffrey - from the outskirts of Jerusalem in Israel

And thank you to the whole team for keeping the best things in life for free (although I do hope everyone receives the funds they need).

Yet I feel converse maxim - "there's no free lunch" remains standing, app://resources/notifications.html

And that is, because, as you state over and over - anybody serious in improvement must pay the price; whether in completing the daily logs, or Burns assessment quizzes, or facing your fears, challenging your assumptions or fine-tuning one's communication skills, one interaction at a time.

The danger of apps, and screens in general, are the inherent passivity and superficiality they engender, so I am looking forward to seeing how this app overcomes that.

Lastly, you had sought feedback as to audience preferences for podcasts:

I think by now I and most regular listeners are clear in the general approaches of Team CBT, and how it differs from other schools and their adherents, so now I benefit most from the role playing to crystallize and internalize its application.

I would also be willing to forego multiple scenarios in each session in order to spend more time reiterating and clarifying individual scenarios - assuming that David, Rhonda, Matt, etc, have the willingness to keep going.

Keep on keeping us learning and laughing.

Jeffrey

David's reply

Thanks for the kindly and thoughtful note. We'll certainly try, but as you say, there's no free lunch and no guarantees! We are sometimes just hanging on!

I like your recommendation for podcasts: more role playing I think to bring techniques and ideas to life.

Warmly, david

Thanks, for listening!

David and Rhonda

Ask David Why do I obsess? Why do I have to be perfect? How can I share my feelings without oversharing?

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Here are the questions for today's podcast.

Zhang asks: I have intrusive daydreams and obsess about getting things perfect? What's causing this? And what can I do? Yevhen asks: How can I use "I Feel" Statements without oversharing?

But first, we start today's podcast with a comment from Susan, one of our podcast fans. She extends our discussion of whether friendship is more of a human "need" or a human "want." She describes her work with Dr. Daniel Herman, a Level 4 certified TEAM CBT therapist.

Hi Rhonda, Matt, and David,

First, I wanted to say I am so glad sweet Rhonda is feeling better. This is wonderful news!

I have been a fan of Dr. Burns books for 10+ years and of the podcast for 3 years.

I just finished listening to podcast #469 on friendship and felt compelled to share my story as it relates to Team CBT. Three years ago, my 23 year-old son entered a 90 day inpatient rehabilitation center for a marijuana addiction followed by 1 1/2 years in a sober living facility. Six months into his recovery, I reached out to Dr. Daniel Hermann, a Team CBT level 4 therapist.

At that time, my son's progress had been steady yet I was still suffering greatly. One of many thoughts that contributed to my suffering was that my friends couldn't understand what I was going through. Although I have been fortunate to have had many wonderful friendships for 30+ years,

Although I was open with my friends about my struggles, I generally didn't feel they understood what I was going through and I felt isolated. Fortunately, Dr. Herman did not try to convince me that I "needed" these friendships or to be understood to "get through" this difficult time. Instead, he helped me to look at the situation realistically, without distortions.

My positive reframe regarding my friends was "I wish I could have felt closer to my friends during this difficult time. However, there are many ways in which I have supported myself and I have found other outside sources of comfort also."

I made a very detailed list of the myriad of ways I had supported myself which brought me great comfort and empowerment. I was able to accept that I wasn't feeling as close to my friends as I would have liked, without blaming them or myself. I also let go of my belief that my friends "should" have been able to empathize better with what I was going through. I learned that although I truly value these friendships, if I expect them to mean everything to me in every situation, I will be setting myself up for a lot of suffering.

I am so happy that sweet Rhonda had those strong friendships to help her during such a dark time. She is very fortunate! Since Rhonda had a change of heart during the podcast, the following comments are based on her beliefs at the beginning of the podcast: that the support of her friends is a need and that she could not have "gotten through" her treatments without it.

Did Rhonda mean that she would have not sought cancer treatment, the treatments would have been ineffective, or that she would have ended her life without the support of her friends? Would she have told a client of hers in a similar situation that she needed to focus all her time and effort on developing meaningful friendships rather than treating her cancer because friendship was the true need?

Obviously, I don't believe she would have and am glad that she had a change of heart regarding this belief.

Thank you all for your wonderful podcasts!

Susan

The point I was trying to make is that Dr. Hermann himself did not appear to believe in these self-defeating beliefs, contrary to public opinion. This was essential to me coming to the same conclusions. (To be clear, he NEVER told me what to believe lol. I was paying him but I did all the work! Frustrating at times but coming to my own conclusions was the only way to internalize these messages.)

Zhang asks: I have intrusive daydreams and obsess about getting things perfect? What's causing this? And what can I do?

Dear Dr. Burns,

Thank you so much for your kind and prompt reply. I truly appreciate you taking the time to direct me to the additional resources on your website—I have found them and am already finding them very helpful.

Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay in responding. The beginning of the new semester has kept me quite occupied, and I have only now found a moment to write to you properly.

I am writing to you again because I have been struggling with some persistent challenges and was hoping I might ask for your guidance. Lately, I often find myself distracted by vivid, intrusive daydreams—I create elaborate imaginary stories or visualize worst-case scenarios, such as natural disasters. In addition, I have developed what feels like an obsessive need to keep my books in perfect condition. Even minor wear causes me significant anxiety, and I find it difficult to stop thinking about it if I cannot repair the damage.

These thoughts and behaviors are beginning to affect my daily life, and I was wondering if you might have any advice or suggested resources that could help me better understand and manage them.

Thank you once again for your generosity and support. Your work has already made a profound difference in my life.

Warm regards,

Zhang

David's response

Thanks, Zhang.

There are many methods and ideas in When Panic Attacks, my book on anxiety. In particular, the Hidden Emotion Technique might interest you. If you are in the US, there is a class on it in the Feeling Great app, which is free until the end of September, so move fast.

Also, I would like to include this as an Ask David, if that's okay. Can use your first name, or a fake name.

Best, david

Yevhen asks: How can I use "I Feel" Statements without oversharing?

Hello Dr. Burns, Rhonda, and Matt,

I would like to express my heartfelt gratitude for the remarkable work you're doing in the field of TEAM-CBT. Your books and your voice of reason have been an immense help to me in some of the most difficult times. Dr Burns, I always feel amazed hearing your wisdom and patience each time you explain the concepts. Even those concepts that were explained before.

Additionally, thank you Dr Burns, Rhonda and Matt, for the exceptional Feeling Good podcast you host. Each new episode is a highlight of my week and nearly always offers profound insight and encouragement. On a lighter note, I sometimes play your podcast at night when I have trouble sleeping. It really helps me drift off within 20-30 minutes 😀

Rhonda, I admire your perseverance in the face of your illness. I wish you a smooth and speedy recovery.

Matt, I really appreciate all the cool insights you're sharing and contributing to this podcast.

I'd love to ask you a couple of questions:

1) When I meet new people, I tend to guide the conversation by asking relevant, open-ended questions. Something similar to the "TV host persona" you described in Feeling Great. The challenge is that I rarely share much about myself. This often leads my friends or partners to say that they hardly know me or that I keep personal matters private/do not share anything with them. How can I work on sharing more about myself without oversharing?

2) I usually appear calm and some people even describe me as having a "poker face." This sometimes leaves my partner/friends unsure how to read my reactions or feelings. Is there a way to become more comfortable showing emotions without forcing it?

3) I'm not naturally confrontational, so in difficult situations or disagreements I usually choose flight over fight. This sometimes leaves me feeling like I missed something or haven't explained my position/point of view. Is there anything I can do to develop a healthier balance in these moments?

I would be really grateful if you could answer any of these questions. Thank you again for your inspiring work!

Best regards

Yevhen M.

David's reply

Thanks, will add this to the next Ask David list. In the meantime, we did a podcast on "I Feel" statements that you could find on my website, with many practical ideas.

You said you want to practice something new and asked: :"How can I work on sharing more about myself without oversharing?" That sounds like you want to practice pitching, in baseball, and want to make sure you throw all perfect pitches. This is not possible! You WILL over or under share at times, it's a rule of the universe. Are you willing to learn by trial and error? And what are you the most afraid of?

On question #3, I never answer abstract, hypothetical questions, as you will know if you have followed my work. If you want help with this, write down one thing the other person said, (or might say), and what, exactly, you said next (or might say next.) This will provide a world of specific information that will contain the answer you're looking for. But on a general level, as the Buddha said so many years ago, "don't waste your time in worthless generalizations. Give me something specific and real, please!"

Best, david

Thanks for listening today!

Rhonda, Matt, and David

Relapse and Relapse Prevention for Overeating Featuring Dr. Angela Krumm

On today's podcast, we proudly feature an old friend, Dr. Angela Krumm, on the topic of relapse prevention for habits and addictions. This is certainly a top of incredible importance, since all treatments for all habits and addictions seem to have extremely high relapse rates. Anything we could do to reduce that would be a major contribution.

Angela was on our Feeling Good Podcast #270 on Nov 29, 2021 describing some TEAM CBT methods she'd developed to deal with her own weight gain. In podcast #270 she taught listeners how to set process goals, instead of outcome focused goals. She then taught about the Triple Paradox, Habit Addiction Log, Devil's Advocate technique, and the Problem-Solution log.

In that first episode she explained that this was a difficult time in her life: her father had died, and she'd also experienced a traumatic fall which caused a concussion. So she fell off being careful about her diet, and one day was shocked that she could not recognize herself—due to weight gain--in a photo, and was on the fast track to Type II Diabetes.

As a result, she utilized many of the TEAM CBT techniques and slowly, but surely, lost weight and kept it off for multiple years. She explains that she was

"solid for a long time, but have to confess, with shame, that I eventually relapsed because I got over-confident. I'd been tracking what I ate, which was an important key for me, and stopped keeping up with it consistently, thinking I didn't really need to anymore."

We reviewed the kinds of tempting thoughts she'd had (and still has, of course, at times), when she feels tempted by her favorites: things like delicious brownies, red wine, and other sweet treats. She has tempting thoughts such as:

I deserve to take a break from tracking what I eat. I deserve a treat—I've had a hard day. It's silly to be so rigid. I deserve to eat whatever I want. Spontaneity is one of my core values!

During the podcast, we illustrated the Devil's Advocate Technique (DAT), which is powerful and a lot of fun, but sometimes trickier than it looks. When Angela gave a "good" but not "huge" response to one of these tempting thoughts, I automatically suggested a role-reversal.

Rhonda immediately and rightly reminded us that we never do role-reversals when people are stuck during the Devil's Advocate. Instead, we paradox the person and sit with open hands.

Rhonda modeled this beautifully and it worked like a charm. Angela had a sudden about face and blew the tempting thought out of the water immediately.

We made three teaching points on DAT.

Don't give in to the urge to "help." This will have the opposite effect of keeping the patient stuck. Realize that if you're a therapist, and your patient cannot convincingly defeat all the temping thoughts in the office, the likelihood that they can defeat them when they're at home is 0%. So, the DAT is both a powerful technique to boost motivation with tools you can use when tempted, but it is also a powerful test of motivation. Remember to Sit with Open Hands if your patients cannot convincingly defeat their tempting thoughts.

Angela shared that she now realizes that the main reason for her relapse was that she had skipped relapse prevention. This is the danger of being your own therapist, sometimes you make the mistake of cutting corners or getting overly confident. She asked to return to the podcast today to talk about that important mistake and help others prevent that mistake in the future. She wants us to emphasize the important of Relapse Prevention for all habits and addictions.

When Angela mentioned that she'd relapsed in her eating to a therapist who was just learning TEAM-CBT, the therapist seemed shocked and asked, "Oh, does this mean that the techniques we're learning don't actually work?"

This is such a great (but naïve and common) question, because we always emphasize that all patients—in fact all human beings—will relapse after recovery from depression, anxiety, a relationship conflict, or a habit / addiction.

That's why it's so important to tell patients about relapse before discharge from therapy, and do a brief but intensive relapse prevention intervention.

We reviewed several of the Relapse Prevention techniques, including the Problem Solution List and the Relapse Prevention Daily Mood Log, using and recording the Externalization of Voices.

When you do this step with a patient, ask them to imagine the future moment in time when they have relapsed. It's important to capture the thoughts that will lead them to give up and quit using the techniques. Often, these are hopeless thoughts about the usefulness of the techniques or their ability to remain in recovery.

If these thoughts are left unchecked, they will spiral the person into a deeper and more lengthy relapse. If they can predict the thoughts ahead of time and generate powerful rebuttals to use in that moment, then their first moment of relapse can be turned around quickly! We listed several of Angela's predicted negative thoughts during her relapse:

I should not have let this happen. 100% I'm not strong enough. 60% It's just too hard to start tracking and logging what I eat again. 65% It will be too painful to have to track and see what I've eaten. 60% This isn't fair. It should be so hard to be healthy! 70% Screw it. I should just accept this and give up! 40% Podcast listeners will judge me because I have gained weight again. 10%

We practiced challenging those thoughts with the Externalization of Voices, and Rhonda summarize several of the strategies that can be the most helpful:

Self-Defense The Acceptance Paradox. The Counter-Attack Technique A combination of two or three

Angela summarized three important take home messages from today's podcast.

Always prepare a Relapse Daily Mood Log ahead of time, anticipating what you will be telling yourself when you relapse Challenge those thoughts with EOV and record that role-play so you can listen to it in the future when tempted. After you have lost sufficient weight, make a plan to continue your healthier eating after the acute phase. Do NOT make the common mistake of thinking, "Oh, I've achieved my goal of losing 30 pounds (or whatever), so now I'm done, and can go back to my normal eating habits and patterns again."

Thank you for listening today!

Angela, Rhonda, and David

Most of us think we're great communicators… but the truth is, we often aren't. At the free webinar on Wednesday, December 3 from 11 to 1 PT, you'll learn some tremendous new skills that will blow your mind. They'll also transform your relationships with the people you care about!

Sign up now at FeelingGoodWebinar.com.

It's for EVERYBODY! Shrinks and the general public alike are warmly welcomed.

Therapists can purchase two CE credits if you attend the live event.

See you there!

COMING UP IN JANUARY: Fast Track to LEVEL 3 TEAM CBT Certification

Howdy! If you're a therapist looking to strengthen your TEAM CBT skills and earn continuing education credit, here's an exceptional opportunity coming up in January 2026.

Feeling Good Institute's Fast Track to Level 3 TEAM CBT Certification Starts January 16, 2026 • 25 weeks • 46 CEs

Special Offer for Podcast Listeners: Use discount code FRIEND50 for a course price of $595.*

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This hybrid course combines: • Live weekly practice groups • Self-paced video training featuring Dr. David Burns & Dr. Jill Levitt • Deliberate Practice exercises such as Externalization of Voices and the Double Standard Technique • FREE Therapist Toolkit ($199 value) • Certification exam fees included

*Early-Career Clinicians: If you're an Associate or Postdoc in the USA or Canada, use code EarlyCareer2026 and get the course for just $195 plus exam fee.

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If you want to level up your therapy skills for the rest of your career, this may be the ideal time.

David and Jill's Amazing Exposure Webinar Part 2 of 2

Today, you will hear part 2 of the Webinar that Dr. Jill Levitt and I did on September 11th on TEAM CBT and powerful exposure techniques for anxiety disorders. Jill's fantastic teaching includes the importance of recognizing the "Safety Behaviors" that sabotage effective exposure therapy. You will hear the dramatic story of a woman who recovered from more than 20 years of OCD / germ phobia in less than one minute while attending David's free weekly psychotherapy seminar at Stanford. You will also learn about "Memory Rescripting," and how it suddenly changed the life of a veteran who'd lost the capacity to feel human feelings following a traumatic experience in Vietnam 25 years earlier.

Thanks for listening. Please let us know if you want future webinars presenting as podcasts. We will also publish them in their entirety on our YouTube Feeling Great channel, so the additional publication on a podcast may be overkill. Let us know!

Warmly, Rhonda, Jill, and David

David and Jill's Amazing Exposure Webinar Part 1 of 2

Today, you will hear part 1 of the Webinar that Dr. Jill Levitt and I did on September 11th of the fine points of exposure techniques for anxiety disorders. More than 2,000 individuals (mainly therapists, but many general public as well) registered for this event.

It was super well received, thanks in large part to Jill's super awesome teaching skills! I feel so lucky every time we teach together. In part 1 today, you will hear about an overview of TEAM CBT, as well as the four treatment models we use with every person who is struggling with anxiety:

The Motivational Model The Cognitive Model The Exposure Model The Hidden Emotion Model

You will also see a dramatic example of the use of a powerful cognitive technique (the Experimental Technique) with Terri, a woman who'd struggled for ten years with extreme panic attacks and depression. You will see the exact moment of recovery, when her uncontrollable sobbing suddenly turned into uncontrollable laughter, joy, and relief.

This may be the most dramatic psychotherapy example ever recorded. Although this podcast of the webinar is in audio only, you can also SEE this dramatic segment on YouTube at

Next week you will hear part 2 of that webinar, with Jill's fantastic teaching on the fine points of exposure, including the importance of recognizing the "Safety Behaviors" that sabotage effective treatment. You will hear the dramatic story of a woman who recovered from more than 20 years of OCD / germ phobia in less than one minute while attending David's free weekly psychotherapy seminar at Stanford. You will also learn about "Memory Rescripting," and how it suddenly changed the life of a veteran who'd lost the capacity to feel human feelings following a traumatic experience in Vietnam 25 years earlier.

Thanks for listening. Please let us know if you want future webinars presenting as podcasts. We will also publish them in their entirety on our YouTube Feeling Great channel, so the additional publication on a podcast may be overkill. Let us know!

Warmly, Rhonda, Jill, and David

Ask David Are You Getting Old and Cranky Now? TEAM CBT and Spirituality

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Jenn asks: Are you getting old and cranky now? Jenn also asks: How did you get involved with / develop the spiritual and enlightenment aspect of TEAM?

Dear Dr. Burns,

Let me start by saying thank you for all of your hard work and diligence in creating a method which is so user friendly. Completing the book, When Panic Attacks, changed my life and helped me reach enlightenment.

My Ask David question is inspired by the last few podcasts, the live session with Rhonda and the live session with Madelaine which David just did with Jill.

David has clearly worked so hard to create TEAM and has dedicated so much time to perfect it. I was lucky enough to have been introduced to the podcast when it first started. Some of my favorite episodes to listen to are the live therapy sessions. I've gained insight and felt heard through many of these such as when David told Lee how lonely enlightenment can be because I agree with that!

Recently I have noticed that David's demeanor has changed and was hoping to ask about it. I can imagine David might feel lonely in his expertise sometimes. I might be on the wrong track here too but I wonder if David might be feeling frustrated with the lack of understanding from people around him.

He has been dedicating his life to this and still people do not understand certain aspects of his research and teaching. On recent podcasts, David had mentioned that he gets more irritated with teaching now too and it has seemed like he is irritated with Rhonda at points.

He has mentioned that he feels disappointed if he doesn't see change in 2 hour sessions.

Recently I watched a live session with Madelaine and some of the techniques (for example, calling her negative self sociopath during counter attack) did not seem to land or resonate with her and that wasn't addressed with David's usual love and tenderness and warmth with empathy. It seemed rushed and not necessarily focused on the patient outcome but the timeline.

I did not find it to be David's usual work of patience and warmth. I could be completely off the rails but I am wondering if this is resonating with David and if he could share more about what it's been like for him recently.

I also am wondering if it is difficult to navigate being seen as "a great leader" in a field. Do people see you as "David" simply a dedicated expert in your field or do people treat you like a "God" that has all the answers? I can imagine people would want help from you 24/7 and if you could speak to that.

I am hoping David can look at some of those thoughts and comments he's made on the podcasts and become the client for us listeners! I would love for David to show us how to experience TEAM from the client's perspective for all to hear.

I have used TEAM-CBT for 10 years and recently started the Fast Track Program which I am very excited for! Thank you again for this truly amazing process!

Jenn

David's reply

Thanks, Jenn,

You are right, I DO feel quite a bit of irritation with our field and can identify a bit with Martin Luther, who nailed his treatise / ideas on someone's door hundreds of years ago, and also Jesus who angrily threw the money changers out of the temple a couple thousand years ago. I know that sounds narcissistic, but that's how I feel sometimes.

My frustration has several dimensions:

The field, to my way of thinking, is incredibly screwed up and anti-scientific, divided into irrational cults called "schools" of therapy. Nobody seems to notice this "elephant" in our room! Hey, are you all sleeping? Did you learn critical thinking in college? When challenged by research that seriously questions the validity and effectiveness of current psychotherapies for depression and anxiety, for example, no one seems to care or notice. It seems like wrong theories die hard. People do not like being criticized and got angry when I criticize the field of psychotherapy. So, there is a kind of a "let's be politically correct" and be super "nice" to everyone, so as not to stir them up or hurt their feelings. There is a potential for massive change and improvements in psychotherapy and psychiatric treatment, but it would require a revolution and the acceptance of totally new approaches which would threaten many therapists' thinking and survival at a very basic level.

Are you or others interested in my thinking? Let me know. If so, more later, maybe on a podcast or two with Jill and Matt, and of course, Rhonda.

And here are the answers to some of your other questions. You say, "He has mentioned that he feels disappointed if he doesn't see change in 2 hour sessions."

We're not on the same page here. I nearly always see dramatic change in 2 hour sessions, and I'm dramatic that I have created a therapeutic approach that makes this possible. When I was a young man, a psychiatric resident, I use to dream about that, and wondered if it was even possible, since I almost never saw meaningful change, much less recovery and joy, in any of my patients using the methods I was talk (supportive listening and antidepressants.)

You also wrote:

I also am wondering if it is difficult to navigate being seen as "a great leader" in a field. Do people see you as "David" simply a dedicated expert in your field or do people treat you like a "God" that has all the answers?

Cool question. I think many people see me as a dedicated expert, but I think a few, particular from some of the Asian countries, to like to see people as "gurus" or something on that level. Sometimes I may even encourage that, as I am a strong believer that therapy, at its deepest level, does become spiritual.

So, questions about spirituality and enlightenment do interest me greatly, and many of the techniques I've created are designed to facilitate rapid improvement, in minutes, vs. years of meditation. The Externalization of Voices would be an example, and it was actually the first CBT technique I created, around or even prior to 1975.

You say,

Recently I watched a live session with Madelaine and some of the techniques (for example, calling her negative self sociopath during counter attack) did not seem to land or resonate with her and that wasn't addressed with David's usual love and tenderness and warmth with empathy. It seemed rushed and not necessarily focused on the patient outcome but the timeline.

You are partially correct and perhaps somewhat "off." Where you are right is that I miscalculated the time for the webinar, and thought we had to stop at 12:30. I later figured out we had until 1 PM, and we could have spent more time on EOV.

Where you're perhaps wrong is that sometimes a confrontation can "jar" a patient into enlightenment. Few therapists use confrontation, but I have always used it, ever since my days in psychodrama as a medical student. Madeleine commented in her follow up evaluation on the things most helpful to her during the session, and that was one of them.

Research has consistently proven that the observers of therapy cannot accurately assess the quality of the therapeutic alliance, as reported by the patient, or the effectiveness of what's happening during a session. I sometimes wish therapist observers had a bit more humility about the accuracy of their observations, based on research that's been replicated over and over!

But there I am, whining again so I will stop!

At any rate, Jenn, thanks for the wonderfully informative critical thinking, and great questions!

Warmly, david

Jenn's response to David

Hi Dr. Burns,

Thank you so much for your fast response. I am really honored that you took the time to reply to me!

Thank you for your honesty too and I can imagine it's super frustrating! I do not think that sounds narcissistic, I think you are right. I find it extremely frustrating too and I am just a user and learner of TEAM. I think I "see it" sometimes since I've done some personal work. I'm still human with many flaws as I am sure you caught on to a few in my email.

I completely agree with all of your points. I genuinely do not understand how TEAM-CBT is not the go-to. It is finally a scientific method that is proven to be effective. It truly leaves me speechless and I could ramble about TEAM for hours to be honest!

I am a registered nurse and I have a difficult time seeing my patients being "thrown" anti-depressants etc. The biological theory was the go-to in mental health and about 10 years ago as I was finishing my nursing degree I read When Panic Attacks. It was mind blowing to me. At the time I was working on a Stroke Rehab unit and the psychologist would recommend our depressed and anxious patients be put on medication. When I asked if she had heard about your work she scoffed at it and it made me so mad! I wanted to scream at her to read your work but she was resistant to even listening and perhaps that will not surprise you based on your points (and also how I incorrectly tried to sell it to her!). I would see so many of my patients put on antidepressants and left alone afterwards as if that would solve everything. Even recently during my labour and delivery training we had a psychologist speak to us about post partum mood "disorders" and she specifically mentioned her patients "yes-butting" her and made a joke about how resistant they are to change and I just had this thought HELLOOOOO has agenda setting not been around for years????? Do people not search out solutions and try to be better? I could Google "my patient is yes-butting me" and your work would come up and it is not easy but it is spelled-out and so accessible to learn. Anyway, I could rant forever. I'm on the same page with you, Dr. Burns!

Thank you for the follow-up email as well. You are right on this one for sure- my therapist observer totally was inaccurate! And I was thinking "I wonder what her EOV is here and if that was effective". I had asked that question in the chat after the webinar but it was at the end and we did not get to it So next time I will ask that as a question in my email instead. I had not seen confrontation used like that and it did seem off-putting and that just shows how well-versed you are in its use and how I am a learner. Thank you for the feedback. This is making me laugh because I am in the Fast-Track course and I really strive on feedback, and I like getting errors over with. In my nursing career I always had "med error" as the thing I never wanted to do and it felt so good when I finally made one (and it also helps the patient was fine haha). So, I had this thought about learning TEAM and how I know that the therapists are never accurate and how I never want to be the therapist that assumes their thinking. So, I am very happy to have done it already and I have not even started the course really.

I want to comment and ask about the spiritual aspect of TEAM. Did you find the spirituality came after personal work or did you see the spiritual aspect before or just as you were developing the whole process?

Externalization of voices and a daily mood log is what got me to enlightenment, but it is hard to put into words. I had blips of the euphoria enlightenment over the years but about 5 years ago I had this "big one" and it was not euphoric. It was nothing (but everything) and it was like I became an observer and absolutely none of my thoughts had emotional attachments. It was instant relief of human suffering for sure. Sorry if this is bizarre and I am not sure if this resonates or if I sound like a crazy person.

In your podcast with Lee you mentioned that enlightenment is lonely and so I thought maybe you have been here. When it first happened it was an overwhelm of being just matter and being everything and nothing all at once. I could see humanity from an outside perspective almost. I was raised catholic and everything that I learned made sense but in a very different way than I was taught - it was like I understood what Buddha and you and the bible talks about but the deeper meaning if that makes sense. And I sat in the observer role for a couple of days and it was fine because I had no emotional attachment.

Actually, as a test I looked at my husband when he got home from work the day it happened and I recognized him of course but I just felt the baseline contentment or a peace overall. The nothingness and the everythingness all at once. When I looked at him I had no emotions or gut reactions or anything and when I thought "that is my husband" I had no emotional ties but I could recognize that my human self loves him but even that love was all created from nothing and everything. This sounds so bizarre!

Day 3 or 4 I went to a house party and again I was just an observer and recognized that my human ego is very tied to wanting others to like me, when I attempted humor it would be to serve my ego, before I'd try to make people laugh for me rather for them and a lot of our actions are tied to our egos. After this party, maybe the next day or something I also saw that as I was observing that although I had no emotional ties that also means…I had no emotional ties! It came to me that to live a human life I cannot be in this enlightenment stage. It was lonely even though that did not bother me at the time and seeing humans from this outside perspective is incredibly hard to describe and was overwhelming.

So in my enlightenment it was almost like I had to decide to step back into trying to be human so I could carry on with life and try and find these emotional ties and what to do with this awareness of my flaws and what even my personality is. It has rocked me a bit! I have decided to just follow things that I find fun or challenging or have become an interest and the flaws quickly followed!

Have you heard of anyone having a bit of fear in reaching enlightenment again? Although the initial hit was so awesome and a huge relief of suffering, I experienced truly what it is like to not have flaws and not have any emotional ties to thoughts. I do have some interesting anxious thoughts about going "back there" and this was the perfect example of "everything in moderation". I must love my flaws haha.

Thanks for your time, Dr. Burns! I thought I had heard you mention during a podcast that you feel disappointed if you don't see change in a 2 hour session maybe while you were empathizing with another therapist so I apologize that I was wrong there. I am most likely remembering it incorrectly or I presented the context incorrectly -it's a common flaw of mine haha usually I need to write things down.

Looking forward to hearing back,

Jenn

David's response to Jenn

Thanks, Jenn. Awesome email. In the context of my empathizing with another therapist, I could well have said something like that for sure!

You are dipping into enlightenment. Way to go. Very exciting, and now YOU will be the expert.

When I lived in Philadelphia, I was lucky to audit a class by James Arbukcle at Temple University on structural equation modeling. It was unbelievably exciting for me, and even though I was in private practice, I went once a week for the three hour seminar and did 20 hours of homework every week. I could not believe my good fortune, as he made everything super simple and clear. It was a wow experience every week.

For quite a while, I would ask him question when I got stuck or puzzled analyzing my data with his AMOS program, and he seemed to know everything. Which was also cool.

Then, one day, he started answer my questions by saying, "Actually, I don't know the answer to that." Like, the first time this happened I asked him the cause of Heywood cases. That where you get a seemingly impossible result, like a correlation greater than one.

But then, an odd thing happened. I found that if I worked at it, I could figure these things out for myself. And often, the answers would come to me in a dream, in the middle of the night.

So, like James, I probably can't answer all your questions anymore, although hopefully I can still answer a few of them!

By the way, James Arbuckle was one of the most amazing teachers I've ever had, and I will forever be grateful for his generosity in letting me audit his class--I was not even a student at Temple--two years in a row for free. And what I learned forever changed my career and my life, especially my way of thinking about research and statistical analyses.

Warmly, david

Thanks for listening today!

Rhonda, Matt, and David

Dr. David Burns and Jill Levitt will teach you seven jaw-dropping techniques to end feelings of shyness and social anxiety. For shrinks AND for the general public.

If you're hurting, or you have patients who are hurting, we want you to join us! It's 100% free. Therapists even get two FREE CE credits if you attend the live event.

Sign up now at CBTforSocialAnxiety.com. This event could change your life.

It's Wednesday, November 5th, 2025, from 11 AM to 1 PM Pacific Coast Time. Be THERE!

Ask David: What's the best way to do Positive Reframing? Is the "20 Qualities I'm Looking for in an Ideal Mate" reliable? And, How can I tell if someone I'm dating is REALLY honest, loyal, and faithful?

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Julia asks: is it more important to do positive reframing on feelings (anxiety, anger, frustration) rather than on specific thoughts («I should be calmer»)? Charlotte asks: What's the best way to use the "20 Qualities I'm looking for in an ideal mate?" Charlotte also asks: What's the best way to find out if someone you're dating is going to be loyal, faithful, and honest?

Julia asks: is it more important to do positive reframing on feelings (anxiety, anger, frustration) rather than on specific thoughts («I should be calmer»)?

Dear David and Rhonda,

I listened today to the Podcast 460 on The fear of Happiness. What a wonderful podcast! I love the deeper dives on one topic and especially when you focus on discussing positive reframing.

If Rhonda felt like she didn't do her best on the podcast, I definitely was struggling a lot even on coming up with positives for Thomas. And It's been some years since I positively reframe my feelings!

Here is my question:

Why is it more important to do positive reframing on feelings (anxiety, anger, frustration) rather than on specific thoughts («I should be calmer»)?

I always find it easier and more helpful for myself to positively reframe the specific thoughts rather than the feelings. I specifically see the reason why a thought is both serving me and saying something so awesome about me and my core values. It usually elevates my mood and my overthinking on the spot.

On the other hand doing it on feelings is also very helpful but can remain sometimes on the general level. It still speaks truly to me and I confirm every value but is less poignant than specific thoughts.

Thank you both so much for such a wonderful podcast!

All the best,

Julia from Italy

David's Response

Thanks, will add this to the next Ask David list. Great question!

One thing to keep in mind is that you can do Positive Reframing on anything: a thought, a distortion, an emotion, a behavior, and more. So, the answer is, "it all depends!"

On the podcast, we can try to figure out what it all depends on, so we have a systematic way of thinking about this great question.

But part of the answer will be, "whatever works for you." The PR of a thought is more specific and unique to you, so that's a plus for including thoughts along with some of the feelings. The feelings are great because they are relatively easy, if you know how to PR them, and the impact can be enormous and, of course, beneficial.

Warmly, david

Charlotte asks: What's the best way to use the "20 Qualities I'm looking for in an ideal mate?" Is this tool reliable? Charlotte also asks: What's the best way to find out if someone you're dating is going to be loyal, faithful, and honest?

Dear David and dear Rhonda,

I love the Podcast so much! It has come with me the last 2 years almost every week and its been incredibly helpful both as a therapist to be and as a human being doing this crazy thing called life!

You two put so much of your heart into it and I am beyond grateful for all your hard work and what you give to all of us for free every week of the year. I don't know where I would be without TEAM and what I know for sure is I never wanna live without TEAM and this beautiful community of kind, funny and big hearted people anymore.

Big thanks to both of you and Matt May and all the people who agreed to publish their personal work. Those episodes are extra special for me and always help me overcome my own struggles even more!

Hugs from Berlin, Germany

Charlotte

I also have a question regarding your episodes around Dating. OMG I can't tell you how helpful they were for me. I am going through a pretty painful break up right now and these episodes gave me so many tips for my future endeavors of dating to find a life partner! So, I would be more than thrilled about another or more podcasts going through that topic!

I have two questions regarding Dating that came up for me along the way:

There is this sheet I use often and was mentioned called "20 qualities in a partner." I love this and rated all my exes in hindsight and also people I dated e.g. my then boyfriend. My boyfriend got a way higher score than my exes at the time and now that we are broken up I reviewed that list. Knowing what I know now the score changed quite a bit which confused me a lot. Now I am wondering how reliable this list is especially if you don't know the person very well in the beginning. How do you handle this list when you're on your first date--let's say--and barely know that person? It's hard to rate someone on availability, loyalty, honesty and so forth when you don't know them yet?! Is there a trick you can do to find that out quicker and do you recommend to review that list after every date and see if you can rate them more realistically now?

My second question is a bit similar. How can you slowly find out how trustworthy, empathetic, honest, loyal, faithful a person is?

Interestingly enough since my score on both anxiety and depression is 0 for most of the time the last 2 years, I had two bad experiences in dating. Both my partners were unfaithful and dishonest about it. Which is interesting for me because my two long term boyfriends were at a time, I was struggling with anxiety and both of them were very loyal, warm, faithful and very much involved in our relationship. So, I feel like my anxiety motivated me to choose very carefully and now that I am doing really good in life and love being by myself and don't need a relationship anymore but want to have a life partner and marry eventually I kind seem to choose more poorly when it comes to partners.

I hope my questions make any sense!

Warmly,

Charlotte

David's response

Thanks Charlotte. I'll add these to our upcoming Ask David recording. Great questions on dating, one of my favorite topics!

Warmly, david

Thanks for listening today!

Rhonda, Matt, and David

Dr. David Burns and Jill Levitt will teach you seven jaw-dropping techniques to end feelings of shyness and social anxiety. For shrinks AND for the general public.

If you're hurting, or you have patients who are hurting, we want you to join us! It's 100% free. Therapists even get two FREE CE credits if you attend the live event.

Sign up now at CBTforSocialAnxiety.com. This event could change your life.

It's Wednesday, November 5th, 2025, from 11 AM to 1 PM Pacific Coast Time. Be THERE!

Ask David, Dr. Matthew May asks--and helps us answer--the most common question he hears from his patients and fans: How do I help a loved one, friend, or colleague who's upset, agitated, angry, anxious, and more?

Matt asks: People ask me about a loved one who is anxious, and want to know what to do to help that person. Example:

"My daughter is hooked on social media. She's literally 'addicted'. She has terrible insomnia, low self-esteem, anxiety, hopelessness, depression, anger and fits of rage when we try to take her phone away. When my daughter is online, she texts things like:

Is this really happening? This can't be happening OMG! This is terrible! How awful! Why am I so unpopular? I'm totally alone I shouldn't have posted all that stuff Everyone thinks I'm an idiot I have to do something to fit in Everything's hopeless. I give up. Is someone monitoring and recording me? All those creeps are evil and deserve worse than what they're getting

On the podcast, Matt, Rhonda and David demonstrate effective and ineffective ways of responding to your loved one, or to anyone who is complaining and feeling upset. They use role-playing to illustrate the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, and you will see how hard it can be to hit it out of the park, even for experts!

Thanks for listening today! In the upcoming weeks, we'll have several more Ask David episodes with these questions and more.

Julia asks: is it more important to do positive reframing on feelings (anxiety, anger, frustration) rather than on specific thoughts («I should be calmer»)? Charlotte asks: What's the best way to use the "20 Qualities I'm looking for in an ideal mate?" Charlotte also asks: What's the best way to find out if someone you're dating is going to be loyal, faithful, and honest? Jenn asks: Are you getting old and cranky now? Zhang asks: I have intrusive daydreams and obsess about getting things perfect? What's causing this? And what can I do? Yevhen asks: How can I use "I Feel" Statements without oversharing? George asks: Would my approach help someone who is suicidal? No Name asks: Do I need to worry about my daughter's anxiety? Jeffrey asks: Can you disarm yourself?

Thanks for listening today!

Rhonda, Matt, and David

You're Right! A Deep Dive on the Disarming Technique Featuring Dr. Brandon Vance

On today's podcast, we will be practicing the Disarming Technique and illustrate the Law of Opposites, using real examples with lots of potential for learning. We feature our good friend and esteemed colleague, Brandon Vance, MD, who is an advanced TEAM therapist.

Starting on November 5, Brandon will be offering a 6-week course on a Deep Dive Five Secrets Practice Group, meeting weekly from 12 to1:30, until December 10th. This course is strongly recommended for anyone who wants to learn and master the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. To learn more, you can

Our goals for today's podcast will be to illustrate how to disarm, with role play examples, of any number of very challenging examples. Once we have done role reversals and developed a good or excellent response to the criticism, we will try to point out two things important for teaching the Disarming Technique.

The Law of Opposite: Here it is: When you humbly find the real truth in the criticism, even if it sounds exaggerated, distorted, unfair, or just plan wrong, it suddenly won't be true anymore. This is a paradox! In contrast, if you defend yourself from the criticism, which you WILL do, you will simply prove that the criticism is correct. This is also a paradox!

We will illustrate some strategies for how to disarm seemingly "impossibly wrong and unfair" criticisms.

We started with a classic example. Let's say a loved one angrily insists, "You never listen."

Then we focused on a challenging clinical example, a patient who insists that "You're to worst shrink I've EVER had! Where did you do your psychiatric training? At a veterinarian school?"

The exercise is fairly simple in structure, but quite challenging when you try it out in an actual role play exercise with a friend or colleague.

Step 1: Your colleague or friends hits you with one of the following criticisms listed below.

Step 2: You respond as effectively as you can, using the Disarming Technique and the rest of the Five Secrets of Effective Communication as needed.

Step 3. Your colleague gives you a letter grade along with what you did that was effective, and where you missed the boat.

Step 4. Do a role reversal and repeat the above steps. Continue with this process until you get an A in your response to the criticism.

I don't have a full list of strategies for agreeing with impossible criticisms, but here are two:

continue editing here

Don't respond to the criticism literally. Instead, try to "hear" what the other person is trying to say to you.

Example: Your patient says, "This is the second week in a row that you've been late to our sessions."

Ineffective, literal response: "Yes, that's true. I've been delayed by emergency situations both today and last week." Explanation: This is harsh and literal, and misses the point entirely. This patient is trying to tell you that they feel ignored and uncared about, and this may in fact be a central dynamic in their life.

Somewhat more effective response: "Yes, I share your concern, especially since I have high regard for you and hate having to be late. I'm really worried it will come across as uncaring and irresponsible. In fact, I had unexpected emergencies with suicidal patients both days, and will certainly make up the missed time for you, and not even charge you for today's session. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if you feel hurt and even a bit angry with me, and for good reason. Can you tell me how you are feeing?"

This type of response gives you the chance to turn your lemons into lemonade!

When you disarm, never say, "I can see how you might feel that way!" This is just a subtle way of sending this insulting message" 'You're wrong, and you're making a misinterpretation because you're a disturbed patient!" If a psychotic individuals makes a bizarre-sounding criticism, listen to the music behind the words and respond to that in a disarming way. For example, imagine that your hospitalized inpatient with paranoid schizophrenia says, "I know you're conspiring against me with the FBI."

What is this patient trying to tell you? They are telling you, symbolically, something like this: "During our session yesterday, you were not trustworthy. I was anxious and still am!"

So, you might respond like this: "Jim, I am embarrassed to admit that I agree with you completely, and also feel bad about it. During our session yesterday, I did a lousy job of supporting you, and we just didn't connect, which was my bad. I felt like an enemy, and not your ally, so I get what you're saying. This is important because I care a great deal for you. Can you tell me what it was like for you yesterday?"

With this type of kindly, disarming, and non-threatening response, most patients will open up right away.

This list of errors is not comprehensive. It's just a started kit to point you, hopefully, in the right direction. You will get many of the fine points by listening to the live podcast.

You might enjoy reviewing the following list of difficult / impossible criticisms you might hear from patients or friends of family members. It can be really helpful to see if you can find a way to agree with these criticisms that's genuine and effective.

Rhonda says: Just to be clear, the following challenges from unhappy kids were not directed at me!

Here are some more from patients in various setting.

More personal / family examples

Thanks for listening today!

Brandon, Rhonda, and David

TEAM Trauma Treatment-- How Does It Work? And Why? Featuring Dr. Jill Levitt

Today's podcast features one of our favorite guests, Dr. Jill Levitt, who is one of the greatest psychology teachers on planet earth. We explore trauma, and how it is treated. We focus in particular on the unique features of trauma treatment using TEAM CBT.

Jill is currently the Director of Training at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California, but she has had intensive training in trauma treatment beginning during her psychology internship at the Cornell Medical Center (? is this correct) in 200? (dates please Jill) and continuing until (date please.) She worked with adults survivors of childhood physical and sexual abuse, as well as victims of the 2011 tragedy at the world trade center, which happened when she was working in New York. She got extra training from several outstanding experts in the treatment of trauma and anxiety, including the renown Dr. Edna Foa, from Temple University in Philadelphia, as well as (please list if you like, Jill!)

Rhonda also has extensive experience in the treatment of trauma since she worked for (x years, please fill in) at th San Francisco Rape and Trauma Clinical. Rhonda emphasized the importance of shame and toxic but high irrational self-blame so often seen in trauma patients of all ages, including, of course, children.

Jill and Rhonda emphasized the importance of the selective use of exposure techniques with trauma patients, and the unfortunate fear that many, and perhaps most, therapists have of these techniques, wrongly fearing that the patient will decompensate and that the therapist, too, will become overwhelmed when hearing the patient recount their horrific experiences in detail.

I, David, will add that I've never had a negative experience with the use of exposure techniques, like cognitive flooding, memory rescripting, and many more with any trauma patients. However, I always do E = Empathy first, as well as A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting, to guarantee that the patient and I will be working together as a collaborative team.

Rhonda asked us to talk a bit about "vicarious trauma" that the therapist might experience when working with trauma patients. Both Jill and David said they've never experienced this, and that only our thoughts, and not the experiences our patients describe, can upset us. We believe the concept of "vicarious trauma" is highly (but not intentionally) misleading and needlessly frightening to those working with trauma patients.

Of course, if a therapist does become triggered when working with any patient, including a trauma patient, that is grist for the mill for the therapist to work out with their own therapist, using perhaps the Daily Mood Log to explore and challenge the therapist's upsetting negative thoughts.

Perhaps the most important theme today focused on the treatment of trauma patients--as well as non-trauma patients--individually, using TEAM to pinpoint one moment the patient was upset, and exploring their negative thoughts and feelings with the help of the Daily Mood Log, as well as the other vitally important components of T E A M.

I (David) do not place much stock in treating patients with "formulas" based on their "diagnosis" or problem. I did 20 or more two day trauma workshops around the US and Canada several years back, and treated a volunteer from the audience at each workshop on the evening of day 1, using a two-hour TEAM CBT session. In all or nearly all of these sessions, the individuals experienced a triumphant and blow-away elimination of all their negative feelings by the end of the demonstration.

But here's the interesting thing: although I occasionally included cognitive exposure, it was perhaps the technique I used the least often with these individuals. Far more powerful for most were techniques like Explain the Distortions, the Paradoxical Double Standard Technique, and the Externalization of Voices. Sometime, an interpersonal technique, including the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, was helpful, even life-changing.

If you are interested, you can read about those sessions in Chapter X in my most recent book, Feeling Great, as well as illustrations of the data from all the patients, showing the dramatic changes in negative and positive feelings from the start to the end of the sessions.

Why did these individuals recover so dramatically and quickly--within a single session? I believe it was because I focused on what was upsetting THEM, and developing an agenda and selecting methods to focus on what they wanted. This, to my way of thinking, is different, even radically different, from imposing a pre-set agenda on patients simply because we think they have some type of trauma diagnosis.

David described the three elements of an "abuse contract" between the abuser and the victim:

I get to hurt or exploit you for my own pleasure. The Blame will be 100% on you. I am a blameless, superior god. We must keep this as a secret, even between us. If you violate this, I will hurt you very badly.

Thanks for listening today!

Jill, Rhonda, and David

Procrastination: Be Gone! And "Physician, Heal Thyself!" Really? Why?

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

This will be podcast #470 on 10/6/2025

Procrastination: Be Gone!

And Physician, Heal Thyself! Really? Why?

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Rhonda asks: Why do people procrastinate? Rhonda asks: Wouldn't you first deal with the negative thoughts that are a part of the procrastination before working on it? Rhonda asks: Here is a question I have: You often say, "physician heal thyself," and encourage personal work by the therapist. Why does the therapist have to face their own issues to help someone else? A heart surgeon doesn't have to have heart surgery in order to conduct surgery on their patient. Why does a therapist have to do their personal work?

Rhonda writes:

I have been thinking a lot about procrastination since we met last week. Why do people procrastinate?

It's one thing not to put away a stack of files on your desk, it's another thing to procrastinate on something major, like finishing your dissertation, doing your taxes, or some things that have a major consequence. It's a habit like anything else so there is a cue, the pattern, and the reward.

Cue: I don't want to finish my dissertation because it's overwhelming and I don't think I am smart enough to finish it, and I don't want to face it.

Pattern: Procrastinate

Reward: Relief that I have avoided it another day.

So, wouldn't you first deal with the negative thoughts that are a part of the procrastination before working on it?

I've also been thinking a lot about positive reframing. I always do it, even with a client who has done it before, to remind people, and keep alive, their positive qualities, and to encourage more embracing/accepting of their symptoms as beautiful parts of themselves. With clients who have experience doing Positive Reframe, reframing their THOUGHTS, not just their feelings, can give a lot of insight.

Here is a question I have, you often say, "physician heal thyself," and encourage personal work by the therapist. Why does the therapist have to face their own issues to help someone else? A heart surgeon doesn't have to have heart surgery in order to conduct surgery on their patient. Why does a therapist?

David replies

People procrastinate because they don't want to do the thing they are putting off. There is no one reason, since we're all different. And we all tend to avoid things that seem unpleasant, and gravitate towards things that are more pleasant. I classify it in the general category of "Habit / Addiction." For years I dealt with the reasons people procrastinate as a first step, including the thoughts they have at the moment they procrastinate. I thought my job was to "help" the person who was procrastinating. This was universally unsuccessful, and not their failure became MY failure. This allowed them to continue procrastinating, since the doctor was trying to help them, and responsible for helping them.

I decided, instead, to go with an approach that works. It took a number of years to figure that out! But it was a huge relief!

We don't say that a psychiatrist or psychologist has to have schizophrenia or be cured of schizophrenia to help someone with schizophrenia. And we don't say that a mental health professional has to have OCD to treat someone with OCD effectively. No one has ever claimed that.

What I am saying is that a heart surgeon has to have credibility and training in successful heart surgery to get the license practice surgery. But how does a mental professional get credibility?

Well, let's say that you've once had severe public speaking anxiety, as I have had. And social anxiety as well. So, when a patient comes to me with social anxiety or public speaking anxiety, I can say, "Oh, I've had that too, and I know exactly how awful that can feel. And, it's going to be a pleasure to show you the way out of the woods."

This message is generally welcomed by patients because it conveys two messages:

I know how much you're suffering, because I've experienced it myself. I have the skills and the confidence to treat you successfully.

Would you want to go to a therapist for the treatment of your own public speaking anxiety, or shyness, if you knew that the therapist had these problems and still hadn't found a cure for themself?

There are other powerful reasons for doing your own personal work:

You can see the impact of therapist errors if colleagues have tried to treat you without good empathy or methods. You can see what recovery / enlightenment mean at a much deeper level! You can see how and why certain techniques can be so critically important and helpful, and why many others will not be helpful. Once you have done your own work successfully, and experienced your own "enlightenment" or "recovery" or whatever you want to call it, you are no longer a mental health professional / technician type of therapist. You graduate to the "healer" class!

During the live show, I went through the structure of the new approach to procrastination, and she sent this email right after finishing her "Mission Accomplished" or "I stubbornly refused" task.

Dear Matt and David!

Successfully completed!

Thank you,

Rhonda

Thanks for listening today!

Rhonda, Matt, and David

#469 Ask David-- What if AI steals my job? I'm freaking out!

Recently, I got a cool question from Megan Morrone, a technology and science editor at Axios. She asked about job anxiety due to fears of AI taking over our work. Initially, I declined to speculate, since I've never treated anxiety due to AI stealing someone's job. But the more I thought about it, I realized I had quite a few, perhaps humble, things to say, so here it is, with help from Matt and Rhonda. I'll include a link to her column at the end of these show notes.

She wrote: Dear Dr. Burns,

I'm a technology and science editor at Axios, working on a story about job anxiety and how it affects workers today.

Would have time to chat with me about it?

I'm hoping to schedule a brief phone or Zoom conversation before Tuesday. 15–20 minutes? We'd potentially discuss:

Please let me know if you have availability.

Best,

Megan Morrone

She subsequently clarified her focus:

Hi! I'm looking at anxiety around AI stealing your job. Would you be able to speak to that? Any chance you're Monday between 7:30AM-9:30AM Pacific or anytime after 12:30pm Pacific time? I'd only need 20-30 minutes and we can do it via phone or video call.

David's response

Hi Megan,

I thought of one point I could make if it would further your cause. Every negative emotion has a healthy and an unhealthy version. For example, healthy fear—when you're facing a realistic danger—is not the same as a panic attack or a phobia or social anxiety, etc. Healthy fear, or healthy sadness, and so forth, or not emotional problems needing treatment, but realistic emotions telling us to take action.

Sadly, with AI as the latest revolution, lots will change, some good, some bad. And sadly, many will lose their work due to being taken over by AI. Our son, for example, used to get high paid work anytime he wanted in user interface work for companies with prominent web presences. But now AI does all of that, apparently. So, he has to look for something entirely different, and he's tried a lot. With a wife and a baby, the financial issues are real.

Now, if someone starts getting overwhelmed by feelings of anxiety, self-criticism, and inadequacy, and hopelessness, that IS something I can help with—big time, Bu the practical problems in finding new and different work will remain even after the person has regained self-esteem and optimism.

So sometimes scrambling and being flexible, if possible, and getting coaching with an expert in jobs and career development, perhaps, on what might be practically possible, is called for, and not psychotherapy. I LOVE working with anxiety and can usually guide my patients to extremely rapid recovery, which is tremendously rewarding, for them and for me! But when the problem is real, my expertise does not match the needs.

Hope this helps in some small way. Of course, sometimes a good shrink can help with sorting out options in the real world, but that generally requires a different type of specialized training.

It is profoundly sad, and we have personally experienced it, that so many people are facing this tragic uncertainty and worry about making ends meet and finding themselves lost due to this overwhelming and unpredictable new revolution.

For what it's worth, my book, when Panic Attacks, is a mass market paperback that has helped many anxiety sufferers and illustrate a great many methods. Also, our Feeling Great app is currently free of charge and causes dramatic reductions in anxiety, depression, and a host of other negative emotions in less than 90 minutes the first time people sit down and use it. It actually includes a highly trained AI designed to use the exact methods I use in my work, and our data suggests that it vastly outperforms most human therapists but will probably not replace them because some serious problems require human intervention.

Best, david

David responds to Megan a bit further

Wonderful, I had one or two additional thoughts for you. People faced with layoffs due to AI (or any reason) face two challenges: the inner challenge and the outer challenge. The outer challenge involves finding, of course, some new way to work and support yourself and your family. The inner challenge has to do with your thoughts. One of the Self-Defeating Beliefs behind a great deal of depression and anxiety is the Achievement Addiction, which means measuring your self-worth based on your work, your achievements, and so forth. This goes back to the Calvinist work ethic, as you know, which is one of the cornerstones of western civilization: you ARE what you DO. So if you do good things, you are a good person; but if you are not doing anything productive or constructive, you are worthless.

So it is super easy to fall into a pattern of self-critical (and distorted) negative thoughts when you lose your work, including "I'm worthless," and "I'm letting my family down," and "this is my fault," or "it's unfair," and endless varieties of these themes that can trigger immediate depression, anxiety, shame, inadequacy, hopelessness, anger, and more. So that is the inner battle. And that's where good psychotherapy CAN play a hugely important role, so you don't have to double your trouble and face a loss of your job plus the loss of your self-esteem and dignity at the same time.

Thanks, and good luck with your article!

Warmly, david

We discussed a great deal more on the live podcast. Megan just emailed me again, and here's what she said:

You're way ahead of me! The story hasn't been published yet. But you can plug our Axios AI+ newsletter

https://www.axios.com/signup/ai-plus

So, check it out!

And thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda, and David

The 2025 Feeling Good Podcast Survey Featuring Sevde Kalidiroglu, Director of Marketing, Feeling Great app

This is the third survey of our podcast fans since the first podcast was broadcast on October 27, 2016, and the most recent was roughly five years ago. Our awesome Director Marketing at the Feeling Great app conducted the survey and prepared the report which you can review if you

Essentially, we wanted to know a little bit about who you are and why you listen, and what you like the most, and least, and what kinds of changes you'd like to see. 183 of you graciously completed the survey. Thanks!

We discussed many of the findings on the podcast, and you can click the link above for the full report, but here are just a few highlights:

Roughly 1/4 of you are mental health professionals, and 3/4 are general public. Men and women were represented equally. 60% of you are from the US, and 40% of you are international listeners. The age range is heavily tilted toward the older generation, with 66% of you above 50 years of age, and not a single podcast fan less than 20 years old!

And why do you listen? Nearly 90% of you are listening to improve your emotional well-being. This was great to hear, and consistent with the many emails I receive describing the help so many of you have gotten from the podcast. In fact, one recent podcast fan fired their therapist due to lack of progress, having made much more progress from listening to the podcast.

Many of you listen in order to learn TEAM CBT techniques, including therapists who want to improve their clinical skills as well as individuals who want to learn techniques they can use in their daily lives.

Other reasons for listening include:

One respondent wrote: "The podcast helps me apply tools to real-life problems that day—whether loneliness, meaning, or mood swings."

If you click on the survey, you'll find a plethora of interesting findings, clearly presented. Rhonda and I are grateful to you, Sevde, for compiling this information, and we are all very grateful to you, our loyal fans, for sticking with us all these years! We will try hard to be mindful of the take-home messages at the end, which included:

Key Recommendations 1. Keep Live Therapy and How-To episodes front and center 2. Reduce episode length & polish editing 3. Bridge podcast and app more clearly (especially in the U.S.) 4. Refresh branding and improve accessibility 5. Add diversity in guest speakers and clinical styles 6. Prioritize topics like perfectionism, trauma, resistance, and self-defeating beliefs 7. Keep posting webinar recordings as podcast episodes

Thanks for listening today!

Sevde, Rhonda, and David

#467 Ask David-- How can I help my elderly, demanding grandma? How can I empathize with hostile political figures?

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Today's questions.

Brittany says that her elderly grandmother has become very needy and demanding, and that her mom finds grandmother's behavior irritating. She wants to know how she can help her mom / grandmom. Jenny asks: How do we empathize with people we are extremely angry with, including prominent political figures?

Brittany says that her elderly grandmother has become very needy and demanding, and that her mom finds grandmother's behavior irritating. Brittany wants to know how she can help her mom / grandmom.

Hi Dr. Burns,

A few months ago my grandma fell down her stairs and broke some ribs. She was in a nursing home for a short while since she needed physical therapy and assistance doing daily tasks. Before the accident, she lived alone and was completely independent.

During her recovery, she pretty much had round the clock visitors. More than any other person in the nursing home. My grandma complained constantly and anytime someone would say "you look good" or "you seem to be doing better" she would very quickly respond with how terrible she feels etc. Having listened to your podcast on how to deal with complainers, I could see it was because nobody was acknowledging her feelings. They just wanted to say things to cheer her up.

She is now recovered and back home, but she refuses to do things on her own again that she is capable of and the doctor cleared her to do. She has a terrible attitude and is constantly calling up family members and her friends to run errands for her. Example: my mom picked up some lettuce she asked for her. Then my grandma called her friend to go get her one afterwards, saying the one my mom bought was too small. She acts completely ungrateful. She texted me that she has been so lonely with no visitors but then my mom tells me that is not true. That she has had people coming over every day and taking her places.

My mom is at her wits end dealing with her demanding attitude and ungratefulness. I know Jill had an example before where her mom was saying how hard things are and nobody is there for her and Jill used the five secrets. This situation feels a little different. How can my mom get her life back and get my grandma to do things on her own again?

-Brittany

David's reply

Hi Brittany,

How about including this as another Ask David? One problem, as I see it, is that your mom is not asking David for help. So I could only help you with your response to your mom, acknowledging how difficult things are for her. In other words, use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Of course, this assumes you want help with your interaction with your mom.

It can be hard not to "HELP" when a loved one, like grandma, AND your mom, are suffering and struggling. Sadly, I have learned that trying to help third parties is not satisfying or effective most of the time. But modifying the way I interact with people is almost always helpful.

Don't know if this make sense. Certainly we can see what Matt and Rhonda have to add / suggest.

Warmly, david

Brittany's response to David:

Sure, I think it would be a great ask David. I would be interested in your approach if it were my mom asking you for help. What would you tell her and what your five secrets approach might be.

-Brittany

David's response:

I always prefer have a specific example to a hypothetical question. I can only help you with YOUR responses to your mom, or to anyone. Can you give an example of something she has said to you that you want help responding to effectively?

Warmly, david

Jenny asks: How do we empathize with people we are extremely angry with, including prominent political figures?

Dear David and Rhonda, Your session on dealing with cancer was incredibly heart-warming and so compassionate. I will be sharing that with my sister who is in a similar situation and now completely healed from her cancer!

My question deals with anger. Many of us are dealing with anger and frustration at our country, president, and White House, who are taking rights away from us that we have earned over the past 80+ years. I find applying your positive ideas about anger to be very helpful: to view anger as having a high moral sense of justice and fairness, and to view frustration as keeping vigilant and to not get discouraged.

But I want to investigate further how these anger/frustration ideas can be applied to White Supremacists and Steven Miller. Because when you hear these people talk they are so incredibly angry, and are directing their anger at other people in destructive ways. How could we, if given the opportunity, talk to them and feel empathy with them?

Thanks so much, Jenny

David's response: If you like, we can include your excellent and highly relevant question in an upcoming Ask David podcast.

Thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda, and David

Ask David: Is friendship a basic human need? Lost and alone--What should I do?

#466 Ask David: Is friendship a basic human need? Lost and alone—what should I do?

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Today's questions.

Zainab asks: Is friendship a basic human need? Slash says: I'm lost and alone. I really don't know what direction to take in my life. What should I do?

Zainab asks: Is friendship a basic human need?

Hello Dr. Burns,

I have a question that has been pestering me for years. I know you said you don't need romantic love to be happy, but I find it hard to believe that you can be happy alone without any friends. Humans are social creatures and there have been studies that said being alone is equivalent to smoking cigarettes - that's how detrimental it is to your health. Being alone can be very dangerous - that is why solitary confinement is one of the worst punishments given in prisons.

Best regards,

Zainab

David's reply

However, the question, as I see it, would be whether adult, or romantic love as you call it, is a want or a need? Do we "need" it to feel happy?

What were your happiest moments, between 0 and 100?

I have had several incredibly happy moments that did not have anything to do with being loved or not being loved.

What, in your opinion, is the maximum happiness possible if you are alone or unloved? What, exactly, is the claim that you are making?

Have you ever intentionally spent time alone to check it out?

And if, just if, you did not "need" romantic love to feel happy, would you want to know that? Or would you prefer to insist that we "need" love for happiness, even if it isn't true?

In my experience working with many patients, the "need" for romantic love can actually be one of the greatest causes of unhappiness, and one of the greatest barriers to love as well!

Best, david

PS Here's another way to answer the question. What's your definition of "need?" Or, to put it slightly differently, what is it that you think you "need" friendship for? It wouldn't be a cup of coffee at Starbucks, for example, because anyone can walk in and purchase coffee.

And you don't need friendship to breathe. Air is free.

And also, what, in your opinion, would be the difference between "wanting" friendship and "needing friendship?"

Also, what is your definition of "love." Love has many meanings, and is not some precise "thing." It's just a word we use in a great variety of ways.

I love blueberry pie, but these days I avoid it because it is quite sweet, and I'm trying to avoid calories. I don't "need" blueberry pie. It's just a "nice to have" every now and then.

I promised to include the Pleasure Predicting Sheet in the show notes so you can do the experiment suggested on the podcast. So here it is!

Slash says: I'm lost and alone. I really don't know what direction to take in my life! What should I do?

Subject: Feeling Lost

Hi Dr. Burns,

I wanted to share some mixed feelings with you. Your podcasts and techniques have been very helpful, and I'm truly grateful for the comfort and hope they bring me.

I've been a shy, lonely person for most of my life, and only recently have I started to feel a little bit of confidence. Still, I worry a lot—just like my father. It's 4 a.m. as I write this, and I keep asking myself, What should I do with my life? Sometimes I dream about learning music, sometimes I think about getting a job, but whenever I try, my anxiety takes over and I step back.

I often see myself as someone carrying many kinds of anxiety—social anxiety, constant worrying, nervousness about driving, blood phobia, and even anxiety that comes out of nowhere. I've also learned from you that hidden emotions can be powerful, and I'm beginning to notice that in myself.

Sometimes I go out with my friends, enjoy the moment, and feel lighter. But when I come back and look at my father, my uncle, and my grandfather, I feel a wave of sadness again. My father struggles with anxiety, my uncle (who once lived bold and fearless) now has schizophrenia and cannot work, and my grandfather, at 88 years old, still travels in crowded buses to support the family. Their struggles weigh on my heart, and I often feel I'm not doing anything meaningful in comparison.

Sometimes I even find myself seeing you as a grandfather figure, because your words carry so much wisdom and kindness. It feels strange to say, but I really don't know what direction to take in my life.

If you could share even a little guidance, I would be deeply grateful.

Warmly,

Slash

David's response

We can include this in an Ask David podcast if you like! Please advise. Warmly, david

We can use your first name or a fake name, whatever you prefer.

The Music of TEAM-- A Little Different from the Music of REBT!

There are many paradoxes in TEAM! That's part of what makes TEAM challenging, but also exciting. Do you know what the plural of paradox is?

Paradise!

Sometimes, music allows us to "see" or "get" something that pure thinking struggles with.

Years ago, followers of the renowned but controversial Dr. Albert Ellis loved singing the famous and outrageous songs written by Dr. Ellis and featuring key ideas in the Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) he created. They were popular because they captured his core messages, involving low frustration tolerance, whining and complaining, and more. Dr. Ellis wrote the words, and the music came from popular songs familiar to anyone, like Battle Hymn of the Republic, and many others.

If you like, you can hear a brief interview with Dr. Ellis, and listen as he discusses the dire "need" for love and sings one of his songs about the need (demand) for love

Although none of the REBT songs made the top list on the top ten charts, they brought tons of glee to his many fans, especially when the participants at his psychotherapy conferences would sing them together. His humorous music made it a little easier for some of us to recognize the absurdity in the intense "shoulds" we direct against ourselves when we fall short and a world that isn't the way it "should" be, according to our narcissistic rules!

Today, we hear some of the music of TEAM CBT which seems to be increasing in popularity recently. However, the themes are quite different from the cutting and sarcastic music of the Albert Ellis era. Instead, they tend to focus on some of the more tender and inspiring messages of TEAM CBT.

For example, I've often described a key idea that I learned from my beloved cat, teacher, and friend, Obie:

"When you no longer need to be special, the world becomes special."

The message focuses on the perfectionism and self-criticism that so many patients and therapists alike indulge in, criticizing themselves mercilessly for every error, failure, and shortcoming, thinking that if they work hard enough, they will achieve something tremendous and attain a lofty status of true "specialness."

You will hear the song, "Am I Special?" on today's podcast. The lyrics of "Am I Special?" were written by Angela Poch, the music was written by Shalynn Burton. Angela Poch put together the virtual choir featuring Rachael, Shalynn, Brandon Vance, Eric Burns and Heather Clague.

The Acceptance Paradox is at the core of that song and many TEAM CBT techniques—finding joy and enlightenment when you accept your shitty, below average self.

And here's the essence of the Acceptance Paradox:

When you accept yourself exactly as you are, warts and all, everything suddenly changes. You perceive yourself and your world through new eyes, and you see that everything is actually quite different from the way you thought, and you experience a sense of freedom, liberation, and joy. David Burns, MD

This is a paradox because total acceptance and total change appear to be exact opposites! But in fact, their the exact same thing! Along the same lines, the so-called "Great Death" of the "self" is actually the "Great Rebirth," or a great "waking up" from a trance.

Much of today's music revolves around those kinds of themes. And some of it focuses on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication and the Disarming Technique, which highlights another key paradox that I call the Law of Opposites:

When someone criticizes you with an unfair and untrue criticism, you will the overwhelming urge to argue and defend yourself. If you give in to this urge—and nearly everybody does—you will actually PROVE that the criticism was actually 100% valid, and the critic will continue to attack and criticize you.

That's a Paradox!

And here's the other side of that paradox: If you immediately, humbly, and genuinely agree with a criticism that sounds unfair and untrue, you will instantly put the lie to it, and the criticism will suddenly realize that the criticism simply isn't true.

That's also a Paradox.

So much for the background, and some of the philosophy behind the music you'll hear today. First, here are the performers you'll hear in today's podcast, with brief bio sketches:

Mark Noble, PhD is a famed neuroscientist and recently certified TEAM CBT coach. Today, he sings three songs with guitar: Placebo, Mind Warp, and Song of My Self. You can contact him at mark_noble@urmc.rochester.edu

Heather Clague, MD is a psychiatrist and Level 5 Advanced Master TEAM therapist practicing in Oakland, California. Heather and her colleague, Brandon Vance, MD, are the originators of the immensely popular Feeling Great and Feeling Great app book clubs. For more information, got to https://www.heatherclaguemd.com.

Brandon Vance, MD is also a psychiatrist and Level 4 Master TEAM therapist and song writer practicing in Oakland. For more information, go to https://www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com/brandonvance. He works with Heather on a variety of immensely popular Feeling Great book and app clubs.

Heather and Brandon sang the song Heather wrote, "TEAM Is Paradoxical." In addition to singing, Heather plays the ukulele.

Erik Burns is the son of David Burns, MD. He lives with his wife and son in Santa Cruz, California, and practices hypnosomatic therapy for individuals struggling with anxiety as well as those with gastrointestinal complaints. He was recently featured on the Feeling Good Podcast (#435, February 10th, 2025: https://feelinggood.com/2025/02/10/435-meet-erik-burns/). You can learn more about Erik's life and practice at https://www.instagram.com/erikburns.bloom/.

Shalynn Burton, ACSW is TEAM therapist who practices virtually throughout California at the Feeling Good Institute. She specializes in anxiety, dating/ relationship, race/ethnic challenges, social skills, self-esteem, and more. To learn more, you can check her out at https://feelinggoodinstitute.com/find-cbt-therapist/shalynn-burton.

Rachel Dillman is a singer / songwriter who creates music to help people build greater resilience. To learn more, check her out at www.linkedin.com/in/rachmd www.resilwave.com. She asked me to emphasize that that her songs help her memorize and put into practice important concepts, like the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. In addition, she is a strong believer that songs can influence our thoughts and emotions. You can hear her songs such as Change How You Feel, Five Secrets, and more at the link above!

Angel Poch is an immensely popular and talented TEAM CBT coach and teacher. She practices in Canada, and offers TEAM CBT training internationally through her many outstanding virtual classes and certification program for coaches. For more information, see https://angelapoch.com//

Angela also wrote the songs: "Feeling Great," and "Tell Me the Truth."

Thanks for listening today!

Rhonda, Angela, Rachel, Shalynn, Erik, Heather, Brandon, Mark, and David

Hopelessness: A New Approach Featuring Mike Christensen

Often, therapists are drawn to become specialists in the very area where they once suffered and felt most vulnerable. In Mike's case, he describes his own feelings of failure, betrayal, bitterness and hopelessness in his early career, and how he found his way to become a star in the TEAM therapy firmament.

Today, he describes a breakthrough approach in the treatment of hopelessness as well, based on the A = Assessment of Resistance portion of TEAM.

Mike began by saying that treating hopelessness is always a challenge. . . in fact, I can vividly remember when I felt hopeless!

And of course, part of the challenge is the fear that hopeless patients may try to take their own lives. This is the "dark side" of clinical practice, and it is not often talked about because of the terror it strikes in the hearts of mental health professionals.

Mike started out with a bit of his traumatic personal history. He explained that he once owned and ran a bicycle shop in Canada when he was in his mid- to late-twenties.

"There was a fellow businessman in my town who was a bit older than me and somebody I really looked up to. He was successful, had a beautiful family, was well respected in the community and had some wonderful friends. One day I got a phone call from my wife and she said to me: 'Did you hear what happened to John? She went on to tell me that it was shocking and terrible because he was somebody who enjoyed hunting. One day he went out to the family cabin and took his shotgun and took his own life.

Mike said that at his funeral, "I can remember it like it was yesterday hearing his daughter's voice when she spoke and those words that she said. "Daddy, why were you so sad?"

"A number of years later we had moved on, sold the business and our home and moved to another town to work in an organization supporting people. I had done my degree in theology with focus on youth and counseling and was working with young families. Unfortunately there were some real difficulties in the situation and it did not turn out very well after a little over a year. He felt betrayed, and ended up with no job. He was now in his mid to late-30s, and got a job in a hardware store. "I was really struggling with the sense of confusion, frustration, depression and hopelessness. Even though I had a supportive family, and had been successful in many areas of my life.

He recounts, "One day I looked in the mirror and as I was having those thoughts of hopelessness I was reminded of John, my business colleague who had taken his own life 10 years earlier and I thought about my 2 young daughters. I could hear John's daughter's voice: "Daddy why were you so sad" in my head and I thought I have to get some help"

"My wife is a nurse and has a very wise family physician, Dr Mariette deBruin, who is incredibly skilled at empathy. Fortunately, she had been at a mental health conference earlier that year and heard this brilliant psychiatrist share a powerful approach to treating depression without medication. That psychiatrist was Dr David Burns.

She suggested I get a hold of the book, Feeling Good, and that was the start of my recovery in 2006. I went back to grad school to do my Masters in Counseling Psychology and then attended my first workshop with Dr. Burns in 2009."

Looking back, I realized that hopelessness was actually my best friend. I was in a tremendous amount of pain. Here were some of the positives I discovered in my feelings of hopelessness:

In my previous work, I'd been hurt badly, stabbed in the back. My hopelessness was my way of punishing the people who'd hurt me. I was saying, "Look at me. I'm a broken shell." I felt like this gave me some value. . . as well as a sense of revenge." I had placed a lot of value in my success in my life, three beautiful kids, and a great athletic career (biking), and my hopelessness protected me from the disappointment of dashed dreams in my new career. I felt I was being realistic. Hopelessness validated how severe my problems were. Hope trivialized it.

When I'm working with practicum students or interns that are early in their counseling or therapy career, one of the greatest fears that they have is that one of their clients or patients will take their own life. Sadly, when you go into this line of work the reality is that at some point, someone we work with in some capacity will experience that level of hopelessness and so I have to inform them that "suicide is not if, but when." This is why it's so critical for us to know how to work with it.

He explained that "Hopelessness validated how I felt. People were all trying to cheer me up. That's the WORST thing you can do.

"My TEAM training was pointing me in the opposite direction. Validating it and acknowledging it took the pressure off of it and began the process of bringing about tremendous relief."

We discussed the power and value of Positive Reframing, even with the hopeless patient, as well as the value of empathy. He said the Positive Reframing shows that "you totally get what this is like for me." The positive reframe serves as our most profound empathy tool. By enabling us to perceive the world through the eyes of our clients or patients, it eliminates their sense of isolation.

The hopelessness shows something beautiful and awesome about you.

He recalls his early training in TEAM, and the immense value of the Externalization of Voices and Feared Fantasy work he did with David to challenge his negative thoughts, including:

I really AM a failure. David must be thinking that I'm an embarrassment to him. David is also thinking, "I can't believe I let you on this podcast."

We illustrated the Externalization of Voices and Feared Fantasy live on the podcast, including the blow-away Acceptance Paradox. Because of that training, "I am no longer afraid of failure!"

Thanks so much for joining us today!

Mike, David and Rhonda

Defeat Perfectionism and Discover the Art of Self-Acceptance Part 2 of 2

Last week, we published Part 1 of the two-hour webinar on techniques to defeat perfectionism. This week, in Part 2 you'll learn many powerful methods to crush the distorted thoughts that trigger perfectionism, including

You can take a look at the workshop handout if you CLICK HERE!

This live, practical training will equip you with powerful, research-backed techniques to help yourself and your clients transform perfectionism into peace, power, self-acceptance, and emotional freedom, all illustrated with dramatic video clips from an actual TEAM CBT session with a woman struggling mightily from brutal self-criticisms, self-doubt, and sleepless nights, due to the very perfectionism that has catapulted her into an incredible career.

Thanks for listening today! And please let us know if you like (or do not care for) these two part-podcasts based on one of my two hour webinars with Dr. Jill Levitt!

Jill, David and Rhonda

Defeat Perfectionism and Discover the Art of Self-Acceptance Part 1 of 2

This Is for Everyone--Shrinks AND the General Public!

On Wednesday, July 9, 2025, Dr. Jill Levitt and I did a FREE, two-hour webinar on one of the most common causes of stress and feelings of inadequacy--perfectionism. More than 2200 individuals registered, reflecting the widespread interest in this topic.

Although perfectionism causes lots of suffering, it's not easy to get rid of this mindset because it can promise and sometimes deliver tremendous benefits, too!

Rhonda and I will be presenting this webinar on the podcast in two parts. This week, in Part 1 you'll learn

You can take a look at the workshop handout if you CLICK HERE!

Next week, in Part 2, you'll learn many powerful methods to crush the distorted thoughts that trigger perfectionism, including

This live, practical training will equip you with powerful, research-backed techniques to help yourself and your clients transform perfectionism into peace, power, self-acceptance, and emotional freedom, all illustrated with dramatic video clips from an actual TEAM CBT session with a woman struggling mightily from brutal self-criticisms, self-doubt, and sleepless nights, due to the very perfectionism that has catapulted her into an incredible career.

Thanks for listening today!

Jill, David and Rhonda

Ask David: How to Stop Giving a Crap Motivating a Procrastinator . . . and More The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question. Today's questions. 1. Chris has a question about Positive Reframing and the Magic Dial. 2. Joe asks: What method would be best to stop giving a crap? 3. Ollie asks: How do you motivate a procrastinating patient to do the hard work of facing the task they've been putting off? 4. Owen asks: Should I complete a full Daily Mood Log each day? 5. Owen also asks: Is it okay to copy the positive reframing from a previous DML when relevant? 1. Chris asks about Positive Reframing and the Magic Dial. Hi David! I'm currently on my third re-read of "Feeling Great" and want to thank you for the positive changes and progress I have experienced in my life as a result of the techniques and information present in the book. My question is, when you use positive reframing, and identify all the advantages of a negative thought, but still decide, "Hey I would still like to reduce my suffering, in spite of all these good things. But I would love to keep the advantages too." Does this mean my conviction for change is not strong enough? Or is this when I should transition to the magic dial technique and try to keep the best of both worlds ? Thank you in advance, Christian David's reply Thanks, do the Magic Dial and you can have it both ways. However, keep this in mind, or perhaps discover it later on. Once you start to challenge your thoughts successfully, and your belief in your negative thoughts diminishes substantially, you may decide to lower your feelings even further, possibly all the way to zero. And at that point, you're probably ready for Relapse Prevention Training as described in the book. The Feeling Great app is free this summer if you're in the US, so that might help you along the trail if needed. Warmly, David Can I use this as an Ask David question on one of our Ask podcasts? d Christian responds Hello David, Thank you for your in depth response, that's really handy. Part of me is really hoping I'll want to lower my ratings even further, but I think as you have outlined many times, honoring my resistance is important if I want to get to that point. It's weird isn't it, I know at an intellectual level I want these things to happen, but at the gut level part of me is still holding on. I would love to use the app, however I'm based in the UK and it isn't available to me, I saw on the FAQ on the website that it may be getting released in other parts of the world soon ? I also hope there will be more and more TEAM-CBT therapists available in the UK in future too ! Absolutely, I would love for my question to be featured in the podcast ! Warm Regards, Christian

Ask David-- The Fear of Happiness!

Although we had five questions for today's Ask David episode, we spend the entire podcast on the first question from a man with an intense fear of happiness.

He wrote: How can I use exposure to overcome my fear of happiness?

Hi David,

How would you do exposure for the fear of happiness? Whenever I feel happy I immediately feel afraid because I had a very strict religious upbringing where many harmless forms of fun and enjoyment were completely forbidden. Even though I'm no longer a religious believer, the fear remains. Feeling good then makes me afraid, anxious and insomniac.

This often goes on for days after something good happens and it almost seems as if I AM being punished after all! How can I recover when feeling good makes me feel so bad?

Love your work and all that you do.

Best regards,

Tomas

David's reply

As I have said on numerous occasions, I do NOT recommend "methods" (like exposure) for "problems" (like your "fear of happiness.") I think your problem is very treatable, but I work with patients systematically, and that doesn't mean starting out with a "method," like exposure or any other method.

I use a step by step approach, using T = Testing, E – Empathy, A = Assessment of Resistance, and M = Methods in a sequence. In addition, when I work with anxiety, I always incorporate these four approaches with every patient I work with:

The Motivational Model: I bring Outcome and Process Resistance to conscious awareness and melt them away, if possible, using a variety of TEAM CBT approaches.

The Cognitive Model: This involves a well-done Daily Mood Log to identify and challenge the distorted negative thoughts at one moment in time.

The Exposure Model: Facing your fears, or testing them with an experiment. This is frightening, but required of every anxious patient.

The Hidden Emotion Model: This is based on the idea that only "nice" people struggle with anxiety, with only a few exceptions, and that an unacknowledged problem is often hiding right behind the anxiety. The cure requires the Detective Step: identifying what the hidden emotion or feeling is. The Action Step: Expressing the suppressed feeling and or dealing with the problem you are avoiding.

Your fear of happiness is an interesting problem for sure. One of my favorite movies, "Babette's Feast," involves this theme.

If you want some help, you could send me a partially completed Daily Mood Log. You will discover that you are the only one who is doing the punishing! It is that belittling, intimidating voice in your own head that is causing 100% of your suffering. I look forward to helping you challenge those voices!

In the meantime, I'll add this to the latest Ask David podcast questions, in the hopes you might send the DML, and then Rhonda and I can comment in greater depth on the live program.

Best, david

Tomas kindly sent a Daily Mood Log, which you can see if you

As you can see, the Upsetting Event is simply "studying mathematics," something he loves. However, he has the belief that if he allows himself to enjoy this or any activity, something terrible will happen to him. He traces this to a strict religious upbringing, and perhaps also to bullying he endured as a kid.

You can see that this is intensely upsetting to him. If you look you will see that in 8 of the 9 categories of emotions on his Daily Mood Log (DML), he scores in the range of 80 to 100, which is intense and severe to extreme. The only emotion category that is not extremely elevated is the anger cluster, which he rated at only 40.

You can see as well that his negative thoughts all involve the theme of punishment and destruction if he allows himself to feel happiness and enjoyment of life, or if he advances himself in life. In some of the emails he sent me, he traces this back to being bullied when young. . . possibly by kids who were jealous of his high IQ.

As mentioned above, I don't throw methods (like exposure) at people based on a problem or diagnosis (in his case a phobia, the fear of happiness.) I also mentioned that I go through the T E A M model in a sequence, starting with Testing and Empathy, followed by the Assessment of Resistance and culminating in Methods. In addition, I always treat anxious patients with four powerful models, including the Motivational Model, the Cognitive Model, the Exposure Model, and the Hidden Emotion Model. I described these models above.

The Motivational Model

The Outcome Resistance has to do with the fact that Tomas may resist treatment because of his fear of the consequences of successfully achieving happiness. We will deal with that with Positive Reframing, including the Miracle Cure Question, the Magic Button, Positive Reframing, and the Magic Dial.

In addition, we'll have to deal with Process Resistance. At some point, we will have to use exposure techniques, and we will want to find out if he's WILLING to do exposure even though it may be extremely anxiety provoking at first.

We can dangle the carrot, letting him know that we anticipate a positive outcome, but also understand that facing his worst fears may be terrifying at first, and very uncomfortable. I will not try to persuade him to use any of the many versions of Exposure. He will have to persuade me that he's willing to do it.

I suspect he will be, because he is asking for exposure, but if he says he wants to be treated without exposure, I will have to let him know I am not a good choice as a therapist for him! That's because I don't know how to defeat any form of anxiety without exposure.

Of course, I cannot treat Tomas, or anyone, through an Ask David, but can only make teaching points. But I am teaching self-help techniques that have been helpful to many people.

In an email, I asked him the Magic Button question, and he said he didn't think he'd push it. This indicates some understandable resistance that has to be dealt with.

Positive Reframing is one way to deal with Outcome Resistance. The goal is not only deeper empathy but also helping patients "see" that the negative thoughts and feelings they are struggling so desperately to overcome are actually positive in many ways.

Once they "see" this, it is kind of a pleasant shock to the system, and their resistance to change typically disappears. Then we ask them to set goals for each negative feelings—a lower level of each feeling that would allow them to feel better and not lose all the wonderful positives we have discovered. That's why it's better NOT to push the Magic Button.

To help Tomas or anyone see and list the positives in their negative thoughts and feelings, we ask two key questions about each one:

What are some possible advantages, or benefits, of this negative thought or feeling? How might it help me? What does this negative thought or feeling show about me and my core values as a human being that's positive and awesome?

Typically, this leads to list of 10 to 20 positives that have three characteristics. To give you an example, his intense loneliness is an expression of his love for people and the great value he sees in meaningful relationships. And his anxiety serves to protect him from danger, and is therefore an expression of self-love.

And his feelings of inferiority—in spite of his tremendous intelligence—show humility, which is not only a spiritual quality, but also can make a person of great intelligence more accessible, more vulnerable, and more attractive. Inferiority may also be an expression of his honesty and willingness to acknowledge his shortcomings, as well as his accountability.

We could easily go on and on, and it might be a great exercise for you to try find the positives in several other of his negative thoughts and feelings by asking those two questions.

Once my patient and I have listed 10 or more positives, I ask if these positives are

Nearly always, I get a resounding YES to each question. Then I use the Magic Dial to see what they might want to dial each negative feeling down to in the % Goal column of the Daily Mood Log.

Is this Positive Reframing process straightforward? Easy?

Not really. I make it look easy, because when I teach I want people to understand, but "seeing" these positives is, in reality, incredibly challenging for most people.

In fact, You can see the Positive Reframing that Tomas completed on his own if you

As you can see Tomas almost completely missed the boat when he tried to identify the positives in his negative thoughts and feelings. I mention this because it is a CRUCIAL step in TEAM CBT, and people often have a tremendously hard time "seeing" the positives in their negative thoughts and feelings. A big part of the reason is that society teaches us the opposite. In fact, negative feelings are Labeled as a bewildering array of more than 200 so-called "mental disorders" by the American Psychiatric Association in their "bible," the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.)

But here's something even MORE surprising. Rhonda—a highly respected and admired TEAM CBT therapist and teacher—also struggles to find the positives during today's podcast. Once someone has pointed them out, you can suddenly "see" them. But on your own, you may have a lot of trouble at first with Positive Reframing, which is anything but simple, but extraordinarily powerful once you "get it."

I recently told my weekly Tuesday psychotherapy training group at Stanford that TEAM CBT is extraordinarily difficult to learn and master—nearly always requiring years of study and practice—and perhaps the most challenging form of psychotherapy ever developed. She was angry and told me I'd have to do large controlled outcome studies to validate that claim!

Yikes!

I may be wrong, and there could be other more difficult forms of therapy, but I still believe what I'm saying because I see it every single day. Many of the most powerful and helpful concepts, such as the four "Great Deaths" of the "self" for the therapist and for the patient in TEAM, and the Acceptance Paradox, and more are hard to learn!

But worth it, IF you take the time to learn this method.

And if you wish to use TEAM CBT, on yourself (for self-help) or with your patients (if you're a therapist) you will have much greater success after you master this powerful but elusive skill.

The Cognitive Model

After Rhonda and I worked with Positive Reframing, we went on to the technique that usually starts the M = Methods section, called "Explain the Distortions." This powerful method includes answering three questions about one or several of the distortions you can find in one of the thoughts you want to work on first.

First, select the thought and identify all the distortions in it, listing them by abbreviations in the Distortion column on your Daily Mood Log. For example, if it is an example of All-or-Nothing you can put AON in that column. And you can put OG for Overgeneralization, and so forth. Often, you will find five or even ten distortions in a single negative thought.

Let's say you work on, "If I'm happy, I'll be destroyed." This alarming thought includes AON; LAB, FT, DP, and ER. And it's also a Hidden SS.

Choose the distortion you want to work on first. Let's say it's Fortune Telling (FT).

Why is this distortion, FT, considered a thinking error in general? Why does the FT distortion your specific thought pretty much make the thought unreasonable? In other words, Why does the FT in your thought NOT map onto reality? And finally, why is the FT is this thought unfair?

As an exercise, turn off the podcast for a moment and write down your answers to those three questions. Once you're done, you can check the answers at the end of the show notes.

It's a great skill to practice and learn, because it will usually make it really easy for you to generate positive thoughts that satisfy the necessary and sufficient conditions for emotional change.

Do you know what they are? Write them down before you look at the answers at the end of the show notes. Just take a guess, but WRITE SOMETHING DOWN before you look!

But DON'T look until you've written down your own answers!

Hey, did you peek, or did you write down the answers first?

I get it! And I forgive you! However, you missed out on a great opportunity for learning if you skipped the written exercise. Or, to put it positively, I try to make the exercises fun and interesting. And if you do them, you'll learn some cool and helpful things rapidly.

It's like riding a bicycle. You've got to get on and ride to learn how to do it!

But here's what's really interesting. You'll notice that Rhonda, once again, really struggles with this exercise during the podcast. Although I think of Explain the Distortions as a really easy TEAM CBT method, experience with real people has over and over again provided abundant evidence that it's NOT easy for many, or possibly most, people at first.

So, what's the point? Here's the point. If you're a therapist, this method is powerful, and will richly reward you for the time and effort you spend in learning how to do it! But you cannot take it for granted if you want to use it in an actual therapy session.

And if you are simply looking for self-help, the exact same thing is true: the method is incredibly helpful and well worth some time and effort to "get it!"

In addition, to challenging the obviously distorted thoughts on his Daily Mood Log, what other methods might be helpful to Tomas?

The Exposure Model

Well, there are a great many, including the Exposure techniques he was asking for. For example, he could intentionally make himself happy, and then fantasize some horrible punishment using Cognitive Flooding. The idea would be to make himself as anxious as possible for as long as possible, until he finally gets bored with the fantasy, which will definitely happen eventually, and the anxiety disappears.

Exposure is terrifying at first, and it is supposed to be. That's whey and how it works!

The Hidden Emotion Model

There are many helpful variations on the Exposure front, and the Hidden Emotion Model might also be key. Is there some problem or issue in his life that Tomas is not dealing with? The Class on this technique in the (now entirely free for the summer of 2025 app) Feeling Great app has many details and exercises and examples to show how this mind-blowing technique works.

That's it for today's podcast. I want to thank you, Tomas, for providing us with a fascinating problem, and all of you who send in your questions.

We are SO GRATEFUL that you are bouncing back, Rhonda, after your ordeal with radiation therapy for your lymphoma, and send you all our love and best wishes for joyful and complete healing and liberation from your nightmare!

Warmly,

Rhonda and David

Answers

Here is my answer to first exercise on the necessary and sufficient conditions for emotional change from a positive thought. .

The necessary condition for emotional change: The Positive Thought must be 100% correct. The sufficient condition for emotional change: The Positive Thought must reduce your belief in the disturbing negative thought. Sometimes you'll want to reduce it all the way to zero. Sometimes, that's not necessary, especially with Should Statements.

Here are my answers to the three questions about Explain the Distortions above.

In general, FT is a thinking error when you are making arbitrary alarming predictions without strong evidence that supports those predictions. In particular, there is no evidence that supports the claim that people who feel happy rapidly become the victims of some horrific disaster or punishment. This thought is very unrealistic because the ONLY punishment that Tomas has experienced is the result of his own negative thoughts! This thought is unfair because it puts Tomas in handcuffs so he will be unable to enjoy his life.

Part 2 of Our Personal Work with Rhonda The Surprising Conclusion of Rhonda's Session with Matt and David

Last week, you heard Part 1 of our personal work--a single two hour therapy session--with Rhonda, focusing on her recent shocking diagnosis of a cancerous and potentially fatal lymphatic tumor in her neck. We did initial T = Testing and E = Empathy. Today we do the A = Assessment of Resistance and the M = Methods, and of course, the final assessment of symptoms and teaching points.

A = Assessment of Resistance

How DO you help someone facing a terrifying diagnosis of cancer? What's the best method to use? How do you cheer them up, or is it impossible to do so and foolish to try? Or is there no correct answer to these questions?

Well, there IS a "correct" answer, at least according to the gospel of TEAM. You ASK the person if they want help, or if listening is enough. And if they want help, you ask them what they want help with. This personalizes the treatment and brings it alive for the patient.

Rhonda said she had difficulties accepting help, and extreme fears of being a burden on others.

She specifically wanted to stop comparing herself to her friend, Jack, who has so far survived for four years after a severe diagnosis of disseminated cancer requiring whole body radiation. She also wanted help feeling less guilty about her anger and her complaint about pain and side effects.

Because we didn't want the session to run overly long, we did some streamlined Positive Reframing, listing 11 positives embbeded in her negative thoughts and feelings, such as "I have no right to complain." What does each negative thought and feeling show about her that's positive and awesome? And what were some benefits of them?

The we asked Rhonda about her goals for each negative feeling on her DML, which you can see if you

As you can see, her desired reductions for most of her negative feelings were only modest, perhaps indicating some acceptance of her situation and the negative feelings that seemed inevitable. However, this can sometimes indicate some residual resistance that has not been addressed. We'll have to wait and see what happens next to find out!

M = Methods

We worked with Rhonda using several methods, especially the Externalization of Voices with frequent role reversal until she got to huge. My memory of the session is that the Counter-Attack Technique compared with the Acceptance Paradox got her to HUGE wins. You can see Rhonda's ratings for each negative feeling at the end of the session if you

And were these rating genuine? Or was she just being "helpful" to us for the sake of the podcast?

At the end, Rhonda estimate her gratitude was 1,000,000%!

Thank you, Rhonda. We all love you for your incredibly important gift to all of us today, teaching us how to love, and to laugh, when we all have to face our inevitable fate of letting go and experiencing the "true Great Death" of the "self." And we are 1,000,000% grateful to your wonderful doctors at Stanford that this cancer will NOT get the last word!

Teaching Points

The first take home message is that you can't effectively treat anyone with any kind of emotional problem without asking them to write down their negative thoughts. If you do this, you can find out exactly what's going on, and you'll know the only real cause of all the negative feelings that person is struggling with.

That's why you can't treat depression with "tips" or advice, like "spend time in nature," or "spend time with friends." That's just junk and cheap advice and it will not work, above and beyond a possible placebo effect.

Second we don't treat problems, like "cancer" or "depression" or any "mental disorder" with packages developed for just that problem. We treat people who are struggling, and find out what their negative thoughts are! You CANNOT know what someone is thinking without asking them. Everyone's thoughts are different and unique. That's why packages, including ALL the so-called "schools" of therapy, will ALWAYS fall short.

There are, of course, common themes, like "I'm not good enough," but we all put our own unique spins on these themes when we're hurting.

And third, measure what you're trying to treat, with brief accurate scales worded in the hear and now at the start and end of each session. That's the ONLY way to know if you've been effective.

And finally, events no matter how traumatic, do NOT cause feelings. Only your thoughts can have impact on how you feel about yourself, other people, and the world. That statement is not intended to blame you for how you feel, but to liberate you from the traps you've fallen into.

Thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda, and David

Part 1 of Our Personal Work with Rhonda The doctor said I have cancer!

Are feelings of depression, fear, anger, hopelessness, and more inevitable if you have experienced a severely traumatic event? Nearly all human beings would say it IS inevitable.

But are they right? If your doctor just told you that you have a serious form of cancer, is it possible--or even desirable--to avoid intense distress and despair?

Today, Matthew May MD and I sit down with our beloved Rhonda who was diagnosed roughly six weeks ago with a cancerous follicular lymphoma. This is a type of lymphatic cancer that allows for a reasonably long life expectancy, but is almost universally fatal. With one exception—if you find and treat it super early. And that is where Rhonda finds herself. And today, she received her (hopefully) 12th and final radiation treatment to her neck, right under her right ear. She was told that the probability of a cure is 95%, but the effects, including painful side effects, of the radiation would be cumulative and increasing for a while after the series of treatments has been concluded. And she IS in considerable discomvort.

Which was good news, great news, actually, for all of us!

Still, it's been a rocky and highly emotional road for Rhonda. So Matt and I sat down with her early this morning to see if we, with the help of TEAM CBT, might be able to bring her some accurate empathy and comfort.

In the session, Matt and I went through the T E A M sequence with Rhonda.

T = Testing

You can see Rhonda's initial Brief Mood Survey if you

As you can see from her Brief Mood Survey, which was completed before the session began, she was only mildly elevated in depression, anxiety, and anger, but her positive feelings of happiness were very low (only 8 our of 20, with 0 being not happiness at all in any category and 20 being the highest possible happiness. in all categories.)

E = Empathy

However, as Matt and I empathized with Rhonda, we reviewed her partially completed Daily Mood Log, which you can see if you

This tool painted a radically different picture. Rhonda's scores in nearly all categories were extremely elevated, indicating about the most intense feelings of depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, inadequacy, hopelessness, frustration, anger, and shock, as you can imagine. She was also moderately self-conscious and embarrassed.

Four radically important question came to mind:

What was causing these intensely negative and almost unbearable feelings? Is there any realistic hope of reducing them during today's session? And if you did want to "help," how in the world would you attempt to do this? And how much "help" could you realistically hope for?

If you're serious about these topics, I would strongly recommend that you take a piece of paper and jot down your answers to these questions right now, before you listen to the rest of session. Then, after you listen to the conclusion next week, you can compare what happened with your own ideas about the situation. ,

During the empathy phase, Matt and I used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication to understand exactly how Rhonda was think, and how she was really feeling inside. We also did a What-If / Downward Arrow Technique to find out what she was the most afraid of. If you haven't already listened to that portion of our work with her. What do you think she was most afraid of in having cancer? And why, do you suppose, she was feeling so guilty? And so angry?

We also explored the impact of the side effects of the radiation therapy, and the impact of the cancer on her personal and family relationships, the errors others made in trying to "help" when she was feeling down, and her fears of the future.

At the end of the empathy phase, we asked Rhonda to grade us in three categories:

How well did David and Matt understand your thoughts? How well did David and Matt understand how you were feeling inside? How well did David and Matt so in creating an atmosphere of trust, warmth, and acceptance?

If you're a mental health professional and you do psychotherapy, I have another question for you before we continue: What % of your patients do you ask these three questions part way through your sessions? Raise your hand if the answer is "most, if not all, of my sessions."

Yikes! I don't see many hands going up! I don't want to upset you, and you may not take me seriously, but you might be missing the boat!

At any rate, Rhonda gave us a triple A +. That's definitely a passing grade, and she gave us the green light to go on to the final two steps of the TEAM session(/the A and the M steps), which you'll hear in their entirety on our very next podcast!

Thanks for listening today! And make sure you tune in next week for the awesome conclusion of our work with our beloved Rhonda!

Rhonda, Matt, and David

Ask David: Chasing, Commitment Problems Sadness as Celebration Is Autism Increasing? The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the live discussion for a more in-depth discussion of each question. Today's live podcast discussion with Rhonda, Matt, and David was very energetic and hopefully inspiring for all of you! Today's questions.

Aurora asks about a dating problem—the guy I'm dating doesn't want to "commit." What should I do? Ana asks: I'm 48 now, and about 25 years ago, I was diagnosed with infertility—a devastating moment for someone who had dreamed of becoming a mother since childhood. Through therapy, prayer, and especially your book Feeling Good, I've done deep healing. I truly feel at peace most of the time. My life is full and joyful. But I've noticed that certain dates—especially Mother's Day and Christmas—still bring sadness. Not overwhelming or constant, but a familiar ache that surprises me even now. I use my CBT tools and move through it, but part of me wonders: should I be "over this" by now? Brittany asks: Is autism really on the increase?

Ollie asks: How do you motivate a procrastinating patient to do the hard work of facing the task they've been putting off? Owen asks: Should I complete a full Daily Mood Log each day? Owen asks: Is it okay to copy the positive reframing from a previous DML when relevant? Zainab asks: Is friendship a basic human need?

Ask David: The Fear of Being Abandoned Living with Someone Who's Depressed Can Someone Else's Depression Depress You! The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the live discussion for a more in-depth discussion of each question. Today's questions.

Negar asks: How can I overcome my fear of being alone or being abandoned? Stan asks: What are your tips on living with someone suffering from anxiety or depression? They can sometimes be demanding or argumentative! Stan Asks: How can we protects ourselves from not feeling down during and after spending social time with anxious and / or depressed people because they express anxious or depressing thoughts to us. It seems to me that we must start to believe the distorted negative thoughts that the anxious or depressed person transmits to us, so we start to feel the same negative emotions the other person feels.

Dailly Mood Log Empathy Positive Reframing Deserted Island Fantasy Cognitive Flooding Please Predicting Sheet Experimental Technique Examine the Evidence Downward Arrow / Identify Self-Defeating Belief(s) (SDB) Cost-Benefit Analysis for SDB Hidden Emotion Technique Externalization of Voices (with Acceptance Paradox, Self-Defense Paradigm, and CAT, or Counter-Attack Technique) Identify and Explain the Distortions

Dating, Part 3 Flirting Secrets, Safety, and More! Today we feature, Dr. Leigh Harrington and Dr. Angela Krumm, who will tell us how to flirt and date skillfully. Both Leigh and Angela are highly advanced TEAM CBT therapists and beloved friends and long-time members of our TEAM Community. Bio sketches for both go here. Include the idea that Leigh is a psychiatrist who specializes in social anxiety, relationship problems, bad habits, and depression, as well as traversing difficult situations with grace. Angela is a clinical psychologist and co-founder of the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. She specializes in social anxiety, teaching flirting skills, treating phobias, as well as health and lifestyle changes. Leigh and Angela, let me know what you want for your contact information at the end of the show notes, like email, website, whatever you prefer in case listeners want to contact you. Also, if you have recent pics we can use in the show notes, that's cool, too, but not required. Rhonda began the show, as usual, with a warm-hearted endorsement, this one from a fan who greatly appreciated Dr. Taylor Chesney's recent podcast on how to communicate with teenagers who may seem rebellious and out of control. The listener said it helped tremendously in her interaction with her 15 year old stepdaughter. I was not surprised, as Taylor is always filled with great wisdom and awesome advice in her teachings—something I also appreciate tremendously. The take-home message was to use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, instead of trying to control them. Form a meaningful and loving relationship. It will pay off in the long run, and in the short run as well! Leigh began today's podcast with a focus on safety when dating strangers, having fun on your dates, how to avoid dating the "wrong" people, how to tame your "dating addiction," and how to set yourself up for success. Angela then taught us how to generate a fun and meaningful conversation with people you meet, and how to flirt and get things started in a positive direction. She explained that she went through a divorce when she was still young, and got lots of help in her flirting skills from several dear colleagues, including Maor Katz, Jacob Towery, and Stephen Pfleiderer. Mastering these skills was very helpful, and is now more than happy to share the incredible tips she picked up at that time, as well as her personal experiences, which culminated in a successful second marriage and family with an awesome hunk of a guy she met, using these skills. Leigh described how she works with patients who are shy by going out with them to public places where they can encounter and interact with strangers so as to confront and overcome inhibitions and intense anxiety. She said this kind of dramatic experience can have a sudden beneficial impact. She described taking a patient to a drugstore to ask a clerk about the best products for a toenail fungus. The clerk was exceptionally helpful and friendly. Leigh emphasized the power of sharing vulnerabilities to enhance connection with others. Angela said she does the same, going out with patients to approach strangers on the street with innocuous "openers" like asking questions, asking for recommendations, asking someone to settle a debate or something you're puzzling over, finding a connection/something in common, or giving compliments. Although these things may seem overly easy to folks who have never struggled with social anxiety, they can be huge accomplishments for people who have struggled with social anxiety. For example, if you're at the grocery store, you might position yourself near someone new and make a comment that seemingly could be directed at them or at no one at all. Something like, "There are so many types of apples. How does anyone pick?" These types of openers are low stakes and give the other person a chance to respond and strike up a conversation or simply move on. In general, she reminded us that it's a cognitive distortion to assume that people will find out attempts to talk to them irritating or burdensome. Most people appreciate positive attention and like being helpful. Or, if you're at the grocery store, you might say "Oh, there are so many types of apples here today. I'm not sure which type to buy." You can also ask strangers for advice; this can be effective because people like to be helpful and it sets them at ease. Angela has prepared a guide describing many valuable flirting skills which you can see if you click here! She also included some invaluable dating tips on avoiding dating the wrong people, safety, and more, which you can see if you CLICK HERE Angela explained many additional key concepts, like Angela explained many additional key concepts, like

Angela suggested that you can use a hierarchy of sharing – testing the waters by sharing things that aren't too vulnerable for you. Then observe their responses. If they respond respectfully, you can go a bit deeper. So, in a sense, you are doing experiments to guide the ship. This is less stressful than thinking you are being judged and that you have to "perform."

448: Ask David, featuring Adam Hollman Relationship woes--what should I do? How can animals have feelings if they can't think? How often should I fill out the Daily Mood Log? Why can't husbands express their feelings? Today we are joined by Adam Holman, LCSW. Adam has recently left his full time clinical practice in Arizona to join our Feeling Great app team here in San Francisco. I think you'll be delighted by his warmth and wisdom. Although he works with us full-time, he still practices one day per week and specializes in X depression, anxiety, and screen addiction(e.g. video game addiction and more.) He has appeared on two previous Feeling Good Podcasts, # X and # Y. We are delighted to have Adam as the honored guest on today's Ask David podcast! Here are the questions for today's Ask David. They were all written before the podcast. If you listen to the podcast, you will get much more information and perspective. The Questions Hello Dr Burns. I hope you are doing well. I participated in the webinar held on 18th of April. It was a good experience for me and I would like to thank you and your team in arranging for that.

Far asks: if You have a relationship problem, but also feel inadequate. Should you use the Daily Mood Log for the internal problem of inadequacy and the Relationship Journal for the actual dialogue? Moritz points out that animals, who don't think in words, still have intense emotional reactions, including fear and anger. For example, when a deer spots a predator, like a cayote, it feels terror and instantly runs to get away. Doesn't this prove that terrifying events can cause feelings directly? In other words, that makes it seem like thoughts or cognitions are NOT necessary to feel emotions. What do you think? Rob asks: How often do you fill out your own daily mood journals? Do you do one every day? Would you be willing to share recent examples of your own journals with podcast listeners? Brittany asks: Why won't my husband share his feelings? (Or, we could ask, why can't men express their feelings?)

When we blame others, we are nearly always CAUSING the very problem we are complaining about. Our anger and frustration nearly always results from "Should Statements." In other words, he "should" have expressed his feelings sooner, and better, etc. This sounds like you expect him to be some ideal husband, rather than a real husband. I sometimes also have trouble expressing my feelings, or even knowing clearly what or who I'm upset with, or why. And I always appreciate a little bit of help at figuring that out!

Perfectionism Update Featuring Adam Holman Today we are joined by Adam Holman, LCSW. Adam has recently left his full time clinical practice in Arizona to join our Feeling Great app team here in San Francisco. I think you'll be delighted by his warmth and wisdom. Although he works with us full-time, he still practices one day per week and specializes in X depression, anxiety, and screen addiction(e.g. video game addiction and more.) He has appeared on two previous Feeling Good Podcasts, # X and # Y. We are delighted to have Adam as the honored guest on today's Ask David podcast! Today's questions come all the way from North Macedonia! Dear Dr. Burns, Thank you so much for your kind response. I'd be truly honored if my questions could be considered for a future episode of your Ask David podcast. Your work has been a key influence in my research on perfectionism and its cognitive-behavioral aspects. Here are a few brief questions I'm currently exploring:

How has your view of perfectionism evolved since Feeling Good? What strategies have you found most effective for challenging perfectionistic thinking in therapy? Is perfectionism often rooted in a fear of not being "good enough"? How does it typically manifest in academic or professional environments?

Secrets of Superb Interviewing-- How to Be Everyone's Number 1 Choice! Today we feature our beloved Kyle Jones, Ph.D, a clinical psychologist who suggested we might do a really cool podcast on the interviewing skills featured in Chapter 16 of my Feeling Good Handbook. Rhonda and I are absolutely delighted to welcome Kyle for his third appearance on to the Feeling Good Podcast. (Rhonda had to excuse herself after introducing this episode because she was not feeling well) In that chapter on interviewing skills, I listed the five basic principles of successfully interviewing for a job, for admissions to a school, or really almost any type of interview at all. I have to warn you that these ideas may be unfamiliar, and will definitely be quite different from what you've been taught about winning interviews. #1: Be personable and friendly. Don't try to impress the person who's interviewing you! #2 Make them sell themselves to you. #3 Be honest, but present yourself in a positive light. #4 Don't get defensive. #5 Punt when you don't know the answer to the question. To illustrate the first idea, I told a story from Dale Carnegie's book on How to Win Friends and Influence People, in which he describes his interview with a wealth and powerful man in the hopes of soliciting a donation for the Boy Scouts of America. This was back in the era many years ago when the Scouts were still very popular. The receptionist who made the appointment warned Dale Carnegie that he would have only 15 minutes, and emphasized that her boss was 100% meticulous about time. He started exactly on time, and ended exactly on time, whether or not you were done, so he better talk fast once the interview started. When the time came, and Dale Carnegie entered the office, the receptionist again reminded him that he'd be kicked out after 15 minutes no matter what! As he walked in, Dale Carnegie spotted a trophy fish proudly displayed on the wall above the rich man's desk, and asked, if the wealthy man he'd caught it. himself, The rich man said he had caught it in lake so and so. Dale Carnegie got excited and said, "I fish there too. Where, exactly, were you fishing on the lake when you caught this fish?" The man told him where his favorite fishing hole was, and they become engrossed in a vibrant conversation about the joys of fishing. Suddenly, the office door opened, and the receptionist appeared and said the time was up. On the way out, the wealthy man said, "Oh, I forgot to ask you what the purpose of the interview was." Dale Carnegie said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that I am trying to raise money to support the Boy Scouts of America." The man replied, "You'll receive a check in the mail tomorrow for a million dollars." And those were the days when that was an enormous amount of money. What's the moral of the story? Relate to the person who's interviewing you as a person, and show an interest in them, instead of pitching your talking points and trying to impress them. People usually make decisions influenced greatly by how much they like the person they are talking to. Don't try to be impressive. Aim for friendly, real and human. How do you do this? Well, let's say that you have an interview with a law firm, hoping to get hired, and you're just out of law school. I used to be the shrink for the University of Pennsylvania Law School, and at the time there were too many law school graduates looking for too few job openings, and almost no one was hiring. They referred despondent and panicky students to me who'd had a string of rejections. At the time, the top firms had at least 50 to 100 top notch candidates for every position. Was there any hope of starting their careers? I told them to do some research on the person who was going to interview them, or on their firm. Find something interesting about them. Then, at the start of the interview you can say something like this: "I'm so excited to meet you because I've been following your work for some time. I was amazed and blown away by your strategy in the X, Y, and Z case, and I was wondering if you're still using that approach in litigation and how it's been working out? I'd love to hear more about your work, and how you came up with the approach you're using, and what you like the best about this firm." This will get them to talking about themselves. DON'T try to impress them with how great you are . That will just bore them, or turn them off, and it will certainly put you under pressure to perform. This pressure will probably make you anxious, and your anxiety and insecurity will show. Instead, impress them with how great THEY are. They'll love you! I trained the students in this doing role-playing of imaginary job interviews. Every student I trained in this approach became the #1 choice at every firm they interviewed at! This approach is not just for law students, it's for every type of job, as well as interviews for college, graduate school, and more. Here's the underlying idea. People don't really care much about you. They care about themselves. This is true of all of us. So, use this to your advantage, and you'll suddenly be super happy and glad you were OTHER centered and not SELF centered! Does this mean you should hide your own skills and accomplishments? Of course now. You can answer questions about what you offer with humility and integrity. But that alone will rarely be enough. #2 Make them sell themselves to you. Let's say you're applying for graduate school, and it's very competitive. Again, they have 100 brilliant candidates for every position. Suppose the interview says something challenging, like "As you know, all the top candidates in the Unites States apply to us here at Harvard. Most of them were #1 in the their college classes and several have already been nominated for Nobel Prizes. Why should we be interested in you?" This, of course, is absurd, but I'm taking the worst imaginable question in an interview. Yikes! This sounds impossible, right? How in the world could you respond? Actually, it's easy. You can just say, "Gosh, I don't know if I'd be a good fit here. That's what I'm hoping to learn today. Maybe you can tell me what you're looking for in a top notch candidate. What kinds of candidates have gone on to be stars, and what types have been disappointments? Then I can give you a better answer on whether or not I might be a good fit. Although I love your company, and I'm so impressed with your own career, I wouldn't want to accept a job unless I was convinced I could really contribute to your firm." Is this realistic, or just some David fantasy? During my senior year in college, I was planning to go to graduate school in clinical psychology, since I'd majored in philosophy and psychology seemed like a way more practical career. However, my college adviser said that medical school would be a far better choice because medications were becoming more and more important in treating mental illnesses, and only psychiatrists could prescribe drugs. I told him that I'd never had any interest in being a medical doctor, and wasn't even a premed student, so there was no way I could get into medical school. I hadn't even had a single biology class in college. He said "That won't be a problem I don't think. You've got the gift of gab, and they probably won't even notice." So, I applied to a number of medical schools and landed an interview at Stanford, and several others. My interview was with someone in the Anatomy Department which was located in the basement of the museum on campus. I went down the stairs and into a room where I met the man who was interviewing me. I said, "It's a bit dark down here. Is this where the medical students dissect their cadavers?" He said, "Absolutely. But it's actually pretty awesome down here. In fact, my laboratory his just down the hall. I said, "Oh, could I see your laboratory? I'd love to take a look and find out what kind of research you do." He seemed excited and as we walked into his lab I noticed all kinds of fancy equipment and read the name on one of them, so kind of photometer or something. I had no idea what it was, but said, "Oh, I see you have an X, Y Z photometer. (or whatever it was). Do you use this in your research?" He said, "Oh, absolutely, it's extremely important in my research." I asked him about the research he did. He excitedly started explaining it, and for the most part I had no idea what he was talking about, but kept expressing interest and asking him for more and more information. I was terrified that he'd ask me questions about my undergraduate work and my research, which of course did not exist. I'd never done any research! Just philosophy classes and such. Well, we had quite the conversation, but after a while he suddenly looked at his watch and said, "Oh, my goodness. We were only supposed to talk for 15 minutes, and we've been talking for nearly two hours. I have to rush over to the medical school quad for an important meeting I'm almost late for. Why don't we walk over in that direction together?" As we were walking out of the basement, he said, "Oh, my goodness, I forgot to ask you who you are and where you're from." I said, "Oh, I'm David Burns from Amherst College." He said, "Well, David Burns, I want you to know that you're the kind of young man we need at the Stanford Medical School.!" I said, "It's really kind of you to say that, but I'm afraid I won't be able to come to the Stanford for medical school." He said, "That's nonsense? Of course you can come! Do you think Harvard is going to make you a better offer? We'll top anything they offer." I said, "Oh no, sir, that's not it. You see, my father is a minister, and we don't have much money, and I've heard that attending medical school would cost more than one hundred thousand dollars. And he believes that borrowing money is a sin." He said, "David Burns, I'm the head of the admissions committee, and that's where I'm headed right now. And I'm going to tell them that you're the #1 choice for admission this year. And you won't have to pay a thing. We'll pay for tuition, room, board, books, expenses, everything. It won't cost you one cent to go to Sanford medical school." I said, "Oh, thank you so much! That's an offer I can't refuse!" I got my acceptance letter two days later and the rest, as they say, is history. But to spell it out. Why was I accepted to a top-flight, highly competitive program when I had absolutely NO credentials? Because I expressed an interest in him, and I was friendly, and I believe that meant a great deal to him. And I'll always be grateful for his help. My wife and I returned to Stanford almost 30 years ago, where I've served on the voluntary (unpaid) faculty at the medical school, teaching and doing research and continuing to develop TEAM CBT. I turned out to be a terrible medical student, and dropped out for a full year on two different times because I just wasn't the "medical" type. I had very little aptitude or interest in medicine. But I did end up as a psychiatrist, and came to love medicine and healing people who were suffering, and doing research. And my voluntary work is my way of trying to repay my tremendous debt to Stanford! And I'll never forget the kind gentleman who interviewed me. Kyle and I jammed on all five examples, including many additional stories to bring these ideas to life. Kyle used this strategy when interview for his internship in psychology, and it worked like a charm. I would say that I've taught many people how to use these ideas, including family members, students, and colleagues. The impact has been nothing short of incredible. That probably sounds over the top, and I "get it." But the stories are true, and the ideas can change your life. Remember what the Buddha said, 2500 years ago: "Selling yourself sucks! So, Stop it, and do what works!" Warmly, Rhonda, Kyle, and David

Contact information

Ask David: The Awesome Hidden Emotion Technique Featuring Matthew May, MD with Rhonda and David The following answers to Ask David questions were written prior to the live podcast where Matt, David, Rhonda, and others discuss the questions in real time. Their answers may differ from Dr. Burns responses listed below. 1. Michael asks: How did you invent the Hidden Emotion Technique? It's been incredibly helpful to me! Hello, Dr. Burns, Your lifelong work continues to be invaluable to me and so many others, and I apologize if this question was answered on a previous podcast. To my knowledge, it hasn't been. I was wondering how you discovered or created the hidden emotion model? I recently struggled with inexplicable death anxiety that came on every night since college started back up, and I was at a loss, until I remembered the hidden emotion model and wondered if there was something I wasn't acknowledging? Sure enough, I discovered I was actually quite resentful of my new schedule not allowing me to easily fit the gym into my schedule unless I wanted to forgo valuable sleep. Once I had addressed this resentment, the death anxiety vanished. I would love to know how this wonderful technique became part of your phenomenal practice! -Sincerely, Michael Polus. David's reply You can read all about it in When Panic Attacks, when I learned about it accidentally based on an interaction with a patient who was stuck. Perhaps we can answer it on a podcast. Thanks! david 2. Janie asks: How can I help a patient who ruminates? My client ruminates, that is she experiences repetitive thoughts about conversations and gets stuck in the negative feelings that come from dwelling on those thoughts and conversations. She has referred to it as repetitive thinking about conversations that were distressing in some way. She replays the conversation in her head, and evaluates and re-evaluates her responses. She then plays the conversation using possible different responses she COULD have used and worries whether these would have been better responses. The first individual is a friend where the friendship is very challenging and interwoven into many parts of my patient's life. My patient ruminates about conversations and wonders over and over if she said the right thing or wonders how the friend took what was said. It is a loop that my patient often gets stuck in for long periods of the day. The second individual is my patient's husband. With him, she ruminates about how to say things to him so she can motivate him to be involved in the ways she wants him to be. We will work on these relationships using the 5 secrets eventually, but first she'd like to work on the rumination because it takes up so much of her time. How can I help her? David's Reply I would recommend

TEAM CBT in a step-by-step manner. I do not, in general, like to throw techniques at people based on a description of a problem. Motivational techniques to reduce resistance and bring resistance to conscious awareness. Paradoxical Cost-Benefit Analysis Dangling the Carrot / Gentle Ultimatum / Sitting with Open Hands The Hidden Emotion Technique What If / Downward Arrow Technique ERP (Exposure plus response prevention) Many other techniques inspired by methods a and b above (TEAM CBT) Feared Fantasy: confronting her worst fear Five Secrets of Effective Communication Work on acceptance: she is perfectionistic and self-critical Hidden Emotion: anger

Thanks for listening (and reading the show notes),

David, Rhonda and Matt

Ask David My friend won't say thank you! Dating Anxiety Religion vs. Psychotherapy We want to remind you about an awesome virtual workshop on habits and addictions that Dr. Jill Levitt and David will be presenting on March 28, 2025 We will feature powerful new paradoxical techniques that will blow your socks off. It will be from 8:30 to 4:30 and you will earn 7 CE credits while having fun and learning how to heal yourself AND you patients. Check it out! It's less than two weeks away, some check it out while you still have time! You'' LOVE it and LEARN a LOT! Registration and More Information Here! As is so often the case, the answers to these questions that appear in the show notes were email replies to the person before the show. To get the full discussion, make sure you listen to the actual podcast, as the answers often evolve in unexpected ways when the "experts" hash it out! Today's episode is chock full of personal stories (some racy), expert Five Secrets advice and demonstration, philosophical / spiritual discussion, and secrets of successful (and racy) dating. 1. Brittany asks: What can I do say to a friend who does not say "thank you" when I pay for our meal or drive a long distance just to see them? 2. Jaydipe asks: How can I get over my anxiety around attractive women? 3. Ali asks: Can religious beliefs cause or intensify feelings of anxiety? (David will talk about the synergies between TEAM CBT and spirituality in all religions. He will also mention the potential antagonisms.)

Getting to Know David David Answers Personal Questions! We all know David Burns as the creator of TEAM-CBT, but not many people get to know David, the person. It is fun to know David the person, because he is just like all of us. He is a real person (not a robot), full of life and love. I want everyone in our audience to be able to relate to David on a deeper level, to feel a sense of connection with him, and hopefully for all of us to build our sense of community with each other. Thanks so much to Stan Dickens, TEAM UK, for submitting these questions and sparking this discussion. The complete list of questions was much longer, but I (Rhonda) have selected the ones listed below. I hope you like listening to this podcast, Rhonda The questions are not necessarily in the order listed below, but all are answered on this podcast. David's answers are all 100% spontaneous, and you will hear them on the podcast! Music & Entertainment 1. Which band do you like most, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones? (David, please say The Beatles!) 2. Following on from that, what kind of music do you listen to? Can you tell us about some of your favorite musicians, bands, or composers? Here are some links to just a few of a great many favorite songs of mine. David

Episode 438 The TEAM Approach to Habits and Addictions Powerful New, Radically Different Approaches that Can Help! Today, Dr. Jill Levitt joins David and Rhonda to discuss and illustrate the TEAM CBT approach to habits and addictions and give a little promo for their upcoming online workshop on Habits and Addictions on March 28, 2025. You can sign up for the workshop here: cbt-workshop.com Although the workshop is for mental health professionals, participants will have the chance to work on their own habits and addictions during the workshop in order to gain a more in-depth understanding of the new treatment methods for:

Overcoming Your Porn Addiction Featuring the Awesome Thai-An Truong!

🎙️ Hosts:

🎉 Special Guest:

In this jam-packed episode, of the Feeling Good podcast, David and Rhonda welcome Thai-An Troung, Level 5 TEAM therapist and trainer, licensed professional counselor, licensed alcohol and drug counselor and expert in addictions, to discuss the complex issue of pornography addiction. Thai-An shares her insights on the rising prevalence of porn use, its impact on relationships, and the psychological and physiological effects of addiction. The conversation delves into the symptoms of porn addiction, the importance of psychoeducation, and the application of TEAM therapy methods to help individuals and couples recover from the negative consequences of porn use.

Thai-An emphasizes the need for awareness and understanding of how porn can affect brain chemistry and relationship dynamics, ultimately offering hope for recovery and healing. This conversation delves into the complexities of addiction, particularly focusing on porn addiction and its impact on pleasure and motivation. We discuss the importance of understanding the psychological aspects of addiction, including the loss of pleasure and the role of motivation in recovery. We explore various TEAM tools, such as the triple paradox, to address motivation and cravings, and emphasize the significance of social support in the recovery process. The discussion also touches on the nuances of sexual identity and the importance of abstinence when overcoming porn addiction. Finally, we highlight the need for specialized training for therapists working with couples facing these challenges.

Key Topics Covered:

* Porn addiction is a growing concern in modern society. * There is no moral judgment on porn use; it can be healthy for some. * Statistics show a significant rise in porn use among young people. * Abstinence from porn can improve relationship satisfaction. * Porn addiction can lead to sexual dysfunction and intimacy issues. * Sexual conditioning can alter attraction to real-life partners. * Psychoeducation is crucial for understanding porn addiction. * Brain chemistry is significantly affected by porn use. * Withdrawal symptoms from porn can include flatlining and social paralysis. * Porn addiction can lead to a depletion of pleasure and joy in life. * Understanding motivation is crucial for overcoming addiction. * The Triple Paradox can effectively address motivation in therapy. * Social support plays a vital role in recovery from addiction. * Abstinence is often necessary for healing from porn addiction. * Therapists should explore the benefits of addiction with clients. * Clients may find deeper connections through shared experiences in therapy. *Therapists need to be aware of the complexities of sexual identity.

*Training and resources for therapists are essential for effective treatment. * Therapists can help clients find sustainable satisfaction beyond addiction.

Listener Challenge

🌟 Try Out the Feeling Great app!

Want to experience TEAM-CBT's transformative power? Download the Feeling Great App or join an upcoming beta test to see the magic of its AI-driven mood and self-esteem coaching. You'll find it all at FeelingGreat.com!

💬 Feedback: We love hearing from you! Share your thoughts about today's podcast. Send us your questions for an Ask David diopside

🛠️ Get Involved: Interested in joining a Feeling Great App beta? Reach out to Jason Meno at Jjasonmeno@feelinggreat.com

📚 Resources Mentioned:

✨ Don't forget to subscribe to the Feelinggood.com or Feelinggreat.com YouTube channels, and rate, and review!

Thank you for listening!

Thai-An, Rhonda and David

🎙️ Hosts:

🎉 Special Guests:

Episode Summary

In this jam-packed episode, the Feeling Good team dives deep into the groundbreaking elements of TEAM-CBT. From rapid emotional transformations to the app's jaw-dropping AI breakthroughs, this conversation will leave you inspired and ready to explore how TEAM-CBT can transform lives. Whether you're a therapist, someone seeking self-help, or simply curious, this episode delivers gold at every turn.

Key Topics Covered

🧪 T = Testing:

💛 E = Empathy:

🧠 A = Assessment of Resistance:

🎭 M = Methods:

Fun Highlights

Why TEAM-CBT Stands Out

Rapid, measurable results – No more endless talking without change. Powerful empathy – A therapy that connects deeply with your emotions. Resistance embraced – Discover the beauty in your struggles. Diverse methods – 140+ techniques tailored to every unique challenge.

Listener Challenge

🌟 Try It Out!

Want to experience TEAM-CBT's transformative power? Download the Feeling Great App or join the upcoming beta test to see the magic of its AI-driven mood and self-esteem coaching.

Next Week

🎙️ Tune in for Episode 437: Breaking Free from Your Porn Addiction, with Thai-An Truong from Oklahoma City

💬 Feedback: We love hearing from you! Share your thoughts about today's podcast.

🛠️ Get Involved: Interested in joining the Feeling Great App beta? Reach out to Jason and the team!

📚 Resources Mentioned:

👉 Quote of the Week: "TEAM-CBT isn't just therapy—it's swimming in an ocean of gold."

✨ Don't forget to subscribe to the Feelinggood.com or Feelinggreat.com YouTube channels, and rate, and review!

Hypnosomatic Therapy Featuring Erik Burns

In this episode of the Feeling Good podcast, we hear from another David Burns—not me (David Dean Burns), but rather David Erik Burns, my wonderful and beloved son. Erik discusses his journey in creating BloomHarmony.org, his new clinical practice that integrates hypnotherapy with somatic work.

To kick things off, Erik shares personal stories about his relationship with his father, David, including the story of his birth and struggle to breathe in the pediatric intensive care unit, and how touch has played a significant role in his life and healing journey. He emphasizes the idea that words alone sometimes fall short in attempts to convey love or transmit healing. A loving touch, in contrast, can make an immediate and profound impact.

Today's conversation delves into the mind-body connection and the importance of emotional expression in therapy. Erik calls his innovative approach hypnosomatic healing, which involves a combination of guided hypnotic imagery with massage. The mind/body connection refers to the dynamic relationship between your thoughts, emotions, beliefs, and attitudes (the mind), and your physical health and bodily functions (the body).

Erik emphasizes the transformative power of touch and the need for openness in therapeutic settings, exploring how these elements can lead to a profound healing experience. Erik also discusses the tremendous value of longer therapy sessions as well as the powerful role of trance states in therapy and in life.

They also discuss the ethical balance between therapist livelihood (which naturally requires charging for sessions) and the therapist's genuine commitment to the relief of suffering, regardless of the patient's financial resources. Both Erik and his dad, David Sr., agree that in an ideal world, health care would be free and available to all, and regret having to charge for treatment. Erik always takes the needs of his clients into account and works for a reduced fee or for free if needed.

Erik explains how and why the mind-body connection is so crucial to genuine healing and describes the importance of energy management during sessions Here's how he explains it:

Energy management is about showing up with the proper state of consciousness for a session. Transpersonal work relies heavily on the therapist interpersonal relationship, so the state I am in has a huge influence on the outcome.

We teach a 3-sided model: emptiness, awareness, and love. "Energy" management would be the preparation I do to both Empty myself from pre-conceived notions (AKA getting out of my own way), to step into observer consciousness, and to become rooted in love. I guess a simpler way to describe energy management would be to become an open unconditional channel and to silence the monkey mind as much as possible. I believe I may have been referring to the inner child dialog I often do before a session to help achieve this state.

The dialogue also explores the transformative experiences clients can undergo in therapy and the tools therapists can use to empower clients who feel helpless, hopeless, or defeated. The personal connection between therapists and clients is highlighted as a crucial element in the healing process.

While gut problems, such as irritable bowel and chronic abdominal complaints are important targets for hypnosomatic therapy, Erik emphasizes the potential value of his approach for a wide variety of complaints, including

Emotional problems

Interpersonal difficulties

Physical / somatic complaints

Spiritual

Here are Erik's actual words, from his website, BloomHarmon.org:

I

Hi, I'm Erik.

I believe in your potential to live a pain-free, vibrant life. Why do I believe in you?

Pain relief is not just my profession — it's also my personal journey. I've lived with gut disorders for most of my life, including food allergies to wheat and milk, intermittent pain, and ulcers. I sought help from Western doctors but never received much relief. Modifying my diet provided some improvement, but it never fully addressed the underlying issues. Finally, I discovered hypnotherapy, and my life really started to change.

As an undergraduate at Stanford University, I studied neurophysiology and deepened my understanding of the mind-body connection. I also trained in deep tissue and polarity massage, which showed me how treating the mind and body together can maximize the effects of each approach. This holistic understanding led me to develop my primary modality, hypnosomatics, a comprehensive body care treatment that combines elements of massage and hypnotherapy to supercharge recovery.

A lot of research has been done into the underlying causes of chronic gut pain. Conditions like IBS, SIBO, and GERD have been studied extensively. Gut-directed hypnotherapy (GDH) is widely considered the most medically effective form of treatment for these types of conditions, with treatment success rates often exceeding 70-80%. This discovery was transformative for me, and it can be for you too.

Today, I am mostly pain-free and thriving, and I want to share the tools and techniques that were so helpful for me. My approach to well-being goes beyond reducing pain; it's about empowering you to transform your own life from within and, ultimately, to thrive.

Thank you for listening today!

Erik, Rhonda, and David

David, Matt, and Rhonda Answer Your Questions! What's the One-Minute Drill work? How does it work? What's Memory Rescripting? How does it work? How can I endure boring and irrelevant college work?

Aaron asks: How do you do the One Minute Drill? Aaron asks how and why Memory Rescripting helped a college student overcome her fears of public transportation (e.g. agoraphobia). Gray asks: How can I endure having to do boring work in college and beyond?

Two questions from Aaron W. C. who is a Licensed Master Social Worker in Idaho, and said, "I look forward to the podcast."

1. Hi Dr. Burns, Can you share how you do the one-minute drill? In When Panic Attacks, you only mentioned the name but not how it works.

Thank you,

Aaron W. California

David's reply

We'll explain and demonstrate it on the podcast. It's a partially helpful tool for troubled couples who argue and fail to listen.

2. Hi Dr. Burns, I completed rereading When Panic Attacks yesterday night. I have a question about one of the case examples you mentioned. In the book, you mention a patient that has a phobia of taking public transportation. She did the reimagination exercise of picturing herself castrating the men that harmed her roommate and branded the man that hurt her as a child.

If remember right, the book does not link using the "reimagination exercise" to overcoming her fear of taking public transportation. How did the reimagination exercise help her overcome the fear of taking public transportation?

I have reread the book two times this year!

Thank you,

Aaron W. California---LMSW (Idaho)

David's reply

I am happy to include your question on an upcoming Feeling Good Podcast. Can I use your first name? Thanks!

I can answer two of your questions, and can even demonstrate the one-minute drill, and discuss its uses and limitations.

Best, david

3. Gray asks about feeling better about post-secondary education

Hi David,

I struggle with intense anger, frustration, and depression while doing college coursework, with recurring thoughts like, "This is pointless," "This work is for nobody, " "I'm just working to work," "I'm being hazed," and "I profoundly don't care!"

I'm interested in law school because I'd love being a lawyer, but I worry that I won't be mentally healthy in that environment. Many lawyers say 80+% of law school is irrelevant and doesn't adequately prepare you to practice law or even to pass the Bar, so I expect similar frustrations would resurface.

I've looked into this very carefully and I'm convinced that the basic substance of my thoughts has bulletproof empirical grounding (outside of STEM, for sure). How could I manage these distortions when I'm in the midst of law school homework?

P.S. I'm quite hostile to appeals about how I would actually learn important things in class or about developing resilience for its own sake, so I'd prefer to avoid that line of thinking unless it's really important.

Thank you,

Gray

David's reply

Can you give me an example of one of your negative thoughts. They always contain some truth, by the way. Perhaps you're trapped in a Hidden Should Statement.

Are you wanting to feel happy about having to do boring homework, or are you wanting not to have to do boring homework? What's your goal, in other words.

All therapeutic failure, just about, is due to a failure of agenda setting. In other words, reducing resistance is the key prior to crushing distortions.

Warmly, david

There is certainly a great deal of irrelevant stuff one has to plow through to get a college or graduate degree, for sure. So there seems to be a lot of wisdom in your negative thoughts and feelings.

I guess my question would be, what type of help, if any, are you looking for?

Best, david

Gray responds

Subject: Re: Feeling better about post-secondary education

My hidden should statements are something like "I shouldn't have to do this." and" I should be able to prove myself by doing real work instead".

I am hoping to be able to do lots of boring/irrelevant homework and be okay about it, not even necessarily happy. Then I could go to law school and be in passable mental health.

Thanks again!

Gray

David Replies

Well, you're right on all counts, including "I shouldn't have to do this." In fact, you DON'T "have to" do it. And if you do stick with it, there's no rule that says you have to stop whining and complaining!

I made the choice of going to medical school and hated it. Worst medical student they had. But I had to complete medical school and psychiatric residency in order to become a psychiatrist. Don't think I learned much of anything in medical school or psychiatric residency that ever really helped any of my patients at that time.

But now I have a life I really enjoy, although there are still negatives I have to put up with.

Warmly, david

One last thing to add. The boring, trivial work does not upset you. Only your distorted thoughts can upset you. The truth in your thoughts is real but does not upset you. You are saying that you SHOULD NOT have to do trivial boring work.

Where did you get that idea. Did you think you were entitled to a universe that conforms to your demands? Why should the world be the way you want it to be?

There's an irritating voice in your brain that keeps telling you that you should have to do this and you shouldn't have to do that. That voice is your enemy, your source of angst, and not the actual work.

So, your first step is to make a decision, perhaps two Cost-Benefit Analyses. The first might be the Advantages and Disadvantages of loudly protesting and insisting it SHOULDN'T be this way. There will be many advantages and a few disadvantages as well.

Now balance the Adv against the Dis on a 100 point scale at the bottom, putting the higher number under the column that feels the more desirable or impactful. For example, if the ADV are a lot greater, your two numbers might be 70-30.

Then you might do a second CBS listing the Advantages and Disadvantages of ACCEPTING the fact that school often sucks. There may be some advantages and a few disadvantages as well.

Now balance the Adv against the Dis on a 100 point scale at the bottom, putting the higher number under the column that feels the more desirable or impactful. For example, if the DIS of acceptance are a lot greater, your two numbers might be 25-75.

Send me your two analyses when you're done!

If you come to the unlikely decision that acceptance is preferably to shoulding on yourself, there are lots of strategies that might help. But I'd need to know where you stand first, or the methods would be a waste of time.

Anger, unlike most negative feelings, is highly addictive, and most people don't want to let go of it.

You could also do Positive Reframing of your anger and negative thoughts, which is super powerful, but this is getting a bit long.

Best, david

David follow-up for podcast audience: As far as I can tell, Gray didn't respond to my email. Sad!

David, Matt, and Rhonda Answer Your Questions! 1. How can I help my depressed son? 2. What can you do on a boring first date? 3. Are depression and anxiety genetic and hopeless? 4. What do scary, intrusive thoughts mean?

The answers to this week's questions were written by David prior to the podcast. The live discussions will add greatly to the comments below.

Get consent on first question, or change name. In fact, I'll just change her name to Henrietta.

Henrietta asks how she can help her son who's been severely depressed for nearly 20 years and rejects all suggestions. Julia asks what to do on a boring first date. Negar asks if anxiety and depression are genetically caused and therefore hopeless . Negar asks about scary intrusive thoughts.

1. Henrietta asks how she can help her son who's been severely depressed for nearly 20 years and rejects all suggestions.

Dear Dr David

I discovered you years ago due to my son's depression. I purchased your book for him, but he not reading it. He thinks he is too far gone for any self help and has been on anti depressants for years.

I appreciate all your hard work , the blogs and the app. I have my hopes up that one day he will listen to you or download the app. This depression has been going on more than 18 years now.

Do you have any ideas on how I could get him to listen to you on You tube? God bless you and your team. Keep up the good work!

Best regards

Henrietta

David's reply

Hi Henrietta,

I'm so sorry he's struggling. I do have a clear recommendation, clearly spelled out in the podcast of a couple years ago, "How to help. And how NOT to help." You can easily find it on the list of podcasts on my website.

I'm sure that his depression has been heart-breaking for you. But there is a radically different strategy / direction one can pursue when efforts to "help" are 100% rejected.

LMK if I can use your question on an Ask David podcast. Then you'll get input from several of us.

Warmly, david

2. Julia asks what to do on a boring first date.

Dear David

Just saw that you published a podcast about how to give negative feedback, absolutely cannot wait to listen to it.

I'm afraid I fall in the category of people who tend omitting opinions and this is going to be of great help!

Now to my question: how do I get more excited in dates with guys ?

I would like to date more and have a more active sexual life but I find myself getting bored in dates and this affects also my libido.

I will have thoughts like:

this is boring he is not that attractive I won't be turned on sex won't be good

I obviously then don't end up having sex with the guy and try to have a date with someone else.

In the date I don't feel anxious but I'm not excited physically and mentally. The anxiety plays a role before I go to the next scheduled dates, because with time I start thinking this feeling of boredom will never go away.

I have tried to work on the thoughts myself with little results and I was wondering if you had any suggestions on how I could be less bored and anxious and enjoy myself.

Thanks you for your answer and your amazing work!

Best wishes,

Julia

David's Reply

Great question, and I have an answer. Can we include this in the next Ask David, using your first name or a fake first name?

Thanks, Warmly, david

You are viewing dating as a shopping expedition, trying to "find" the best item to purchase, and finding your shopping boring, which it is. But you are forcing it to be boring because you are not being open with your feelings. You are foolishly trying to hide your feelings of boredom, whereas they are really the door to fascination and a most interesting and dynamic exchange. Let me show you what I mean.

You can, instead, view dating as forming a relationship, being open, and genuine, and a little flirtatious, and seeing how things unfold. So, or example, you might say something along these lines, "You seem like a really neat and interesting person, but I notice that our conversation is not very open, or vulnerable, and that makes it way less interesting. Have you notice that, too? Tell me how you're feeling."

If you express this, things will instantly get very interesting! You are not trying to hurt their feelings, but rather open up a conversation about feelings, by encouraging them to be real. They may also be feeling bored, or anxious, or whatever.

As a psychiatrist, I find that when I explore the feelings and insecurities of my patients, it is always interesting. And when there is tension, including boredom, I acknowledge it to find out what's up, and how is my patient experiencing the session and our interaction, and that is interesting 100% of the time, without exception.

Warmly, david

Dear David,

Thank you for such an amazing answer!

I have listened to the podcasts so many times and I am familiar with the concept of sharing the tensed feelings like boredom, to not force the other person to be boring.

However I had never thought to apply it to dating!! It is such a foreign concept to how all my friends approach dating, that I will need first to experiment with it.

I'm curious to see if I'm going to be brave enough to take this leap!

Cannot wait to hear the podcast!

All the best,

Giulia

3. Negar asks if anxiety and depression are genetically caused and therefore hopeless .

Hello, my kind father🦋💙, I hope you are well💝. I have a question. Many people I see who suffer from panic attacks and experience anxiety and major depression believe that they have a family and genetic background.

That is why they do not have much hope that psychotherapy can help them and believe that the defective gene for causeless anxiety and panic is turned on in the nucleus of their cells.

What do you think? Is it possible to deactivate these defective genes with psychotherapy sessions, meditation, etc.?!🥲

David's Reply

There is evidence that anxiety is inherited, and my mother had fear of heights, for example. I also got fear of heights and more than a dozen other forms of anxiety: fear of blood, dogs, vomiting, social situations, public speaking, cameras, panic attack once, and much more. But I have found that the techniques I use in therapy have helped greatly. I got over my fear of blood, for example, in twenty minutes working in the emergency room of a hospital and treating a severe trauma patient covered in blood. Everything about humans is genetic. We are born unable to speak a language, and yet we learn.

So, to me, the argument is kind of silly and naïve. Just because something is influenced by genetics, and everything is, how does it follow that we cannot grow and learn? The whole notion seems to me to be ridiculous.

Now, there are some genetic things that cannot be changed. For example, how tall you are, or the color of your hair (of course you can dye your hair if you want.) So everything has limits.

The belief that you cannot change the way you feel will act as a self-fulfilling prophecy, since you won't try, but that doesn't make it true!

Here's something that IS true: Your feelings constantly are changing, at every minute of every day from the moment of birth. So anyone who argues that feelings CANNOT change is just wrapped up in a complete delusion! But people are welcome to believe whatever they want, of course. I believe strongly in freedom of thought. I also believe that people have the RIGHT to be WRONG!

Best, david

Will use as another excellent Ask David question if okay.

Thanks for the great photo. Do you want me to include it in the show notes for that podcast episode?

PS I will soon publish a video on my YouTube channel showing a 5 ½ minute cure for a woman with ten years of extreme panic attacks every week. Panic is probably the easiest thing to treat.

4. Negar asks about scary intrusive thoughts.

Hello my kind father I hope you are in a good mood and continue to be full of energy as always I had a question I see in some people that they say that we have scary and useless thoughts This case is interesting for me too, because sometimes I have absurd and meaningless thoughts But since I meditate and do mindfulness exercises, I came to the conclusion that these are just thoughts. Did you have such an experience?😉

David's Reply

Yes, I have treated many people with frightening, intrusive thoughts and images, common in OCD / intense anxiety. Often, something is happening in that person's life that is bothering them, but they are not dealing with itself, instead they sweep their feelings, of anger or whatever, under the rug and try to avoid them. Result = obsessions. There's a whole section on this in my book, When Panic Attacks, and you can look up my podcasts on the Hidden Emotion Technique.

Best, david